"Play a Wilden if you want... to be a member of a race that favors the battlemind, druid, invoker, and shaman classes."
Obviously there's not a lot of info we can get from this, but sounds like another Psionic striker to me! It's also a fair bet that this class uses either WIS or CON as a primary. Any other insight or speculation you guys would like to add?
That way, Goliaths are REALLY good at it - and thus make suitable replacements for Half-Giants.
I was hoping for Warmind, along with Warshade and Warmental for the upcoming power sources. How am I going to get my all-War party now?
Drat.
I was hoping for Warmind, along with Warshade and Warmental for the upcoming power sources. How am I going to get my all-War party now?
warlord, warlock, warforged, come on you gotta work with us here...
Drat.
I was hoping for Warmind, along with Warshade and Warmental for the upcoming power sources. How am I going to get my all-War party now?
warlord, warlock, warforged, come on you gotta work with us here...
Warden too.
Drat.
I was hoping for Warmind, along with Warshade and Warmental for the upcoming power sources. How am I going to get my all-War party now?
warlord, warlock, warforged, come on you gotta work with us here...
Warden
darn, war-ninja'd.
In related news, was there any other changes to the Wilden? They were listed as 'new' this month, yet i dont see any difference.
Playtest sidebars and Introduction on Killoren --> Wilden removed.
Picture removed (hopefully updated in CharBuilder, but I'm a Mac OS X person, so ask someone else).
Fey Origin wording is changed to standard "your ancestors were natives" instead of "you are a native," to avoid presumptions, most likely.
Voyage of the Ancients wording is changed - you can't teleport up to 3 squares anymore, you HAVE to teleport exactly three squares. Also, "line of sight" changed to "you can see," though I fail to see the point in changing away from a game-mechanics term to a more general name for the same term.
Flavour text for Wrath of the Destroyer was reworded to sound less awkward. Also, the effect text was standardised.
Flavour text for Pursuit of the Hunter was made slightly less awesome (no more "there is only death" at the end of the text). It no longer affects an enemy that shifts rather than moves, but a shift is a move, so that clears up some confusion. Also, the effect text were clarified to include the rules in it, rather than reference the rules required for it.
The following flavour text was simplified somewhat (some paragraphs or sentences removed, but most remained exactly the same). A bit of it was reworded (i.e. "venerate the primal spirits" changed to "honor the primal spirits").
Names remained the same.
Backgrounds, which haven't been in the compendium, were not included in this release.
As for what role it fills, if I had to guess just based on the name I would guess it would be a leader that coordinates its allies' actions via telepathy and/or restores their vigor like an empath (although in the latter case I'm not sure why they wouldn't just call the class Empath).
Regardless of what the second stat for it is, this means Goliaths are advantaged, and thus make a good Psionic character, leaning us towards them replacing Half-Giants, which is cool.
The new Compendium update for the Wilden reveals something interesting:
"Play a Wilden if you want... to be a member of a race that favors the battlemind, druid, invoker, and shaman classes."
Obviously there's not a lot of info we can get from this, but sounds like another Psionic striker to me! It's also a fair bet that this class uses either WIS or CON as a primary. Any other insight or speculation you guys would like to add?
d20 Modern has an Advanced Class called the Battle-Mind, a psi-blade and psychic shield weilding class with a power list that could fit the Defender role--if you added a marking ability of some kind.
However, this Battlemind could be closer to a Soulknife--from the Expanded Psionics Handbook--whose special abilities--such as the extra damage adding Psychic Strike--better suited the Striker role.
KOBOLD BATTLEMIND O_O OMFG!
YES! IT MUST BE SO!
Come on now.
I hope they don't call the Psionic Leader something dumb as hell, like the "Healbrain". I mean, most people are expecting "Empath", but I was also expecting something better for Defender (I still think "Sentinel" is the best name by far).
Sentinel has been suggested repeatedly, and I think it would be absolutely fantastic!
Yes, and I agree. That's why I initially suggested it months ago :P
Swordmage flows well enough for a compound name, but Battlemind? Really? Really?
Honestly? "Battlemind" sounds exactly as stupid as "Swordmage" sounds. Neither is a real or correct compound word. At best, you could hyphenate them. And besides, at least they probably won't take the name "Battlemind" as a nonsensically limiting factor to the class's concept, unlike "Swordmages" and their ridiculous weapon restrictions.
Swordmage flows well enough for a compound name, but Battlemind? Really? Really?
Honestly? "Battlemind" sounds exactly as stupid as "Swordmage" sounds. Neither is a real or correct compound word. At best, you could hyphenate them. And besides, at least they probably won't take the name "Battlemind" as a nonsensically limiting factor to the class's concept, unlike "Swordmages" and their ridiculous weapon restrictions.
A swordmage using a sword is ridiculous?
A swordmage using a sword is ridiculous?
No, a sword mage being only able to use a sword is ridiculous. There was no reason to mechanically limit the class to blade weapons, and I house rule that limitation away in my games. I see nothing wrong with Hammer-Mages, Axe-Mages, Spear-Mages, or Flail-Mages...
A swordmage using a sword is ridiculous?
No, a sword mage being only able to use a sword is ridiculous. There was no reason to mechanically limit the class to blade weapons, and I house rule that limitation away in my games. I see nothing wrong with Hammer-Mages, Axe-Mages, Spear-Mages, or Flail-Mages...
Your right, there is no mechanical reason. The reason is entirely flavor based. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Hammermages or Axemages, flavorfuly or mechanically, and it's a fine houserule, but it's not the direction WotC chose to go.
The restrictions for swordmages really aren't all that different than any other implement using class. Why can't my wizard use a rod? Why can't my Warlock use an orb? I might have great flavor reasons to do so on any given character. The wizard might be from a line of magekings that channel their powers through their scepter. The warlock might be a fortuneteller who speeks with deceased spirits (vestige pact) and channels that power through her crystal ball.
And at least the Wizard and Warlock can use different implements if they choose to do so, via a feat. It may or may not have been the best way of dealing with their issue, but at least their issue has a solution...
That's understandable to an extent in the case of implements, but the difference in the case of the weapons and the Sword Mage is that there is no analogous class capable of making use of different weapons.
But it isn't an issue of weapons. None of the swordmage powers with the weapon keyword care whether you use an sword or an axe. It's only the implement powers and the warding class feature that care.
It's quite possible to build a functional Hammermage or Axemage using the RAW. You can't choose implment powers and it requires that you either buy shield proficiency to offset the loss of warding (which also has the boon of improved reflex, and if the shielded is spiked you can still a limited warding plus acces to imlement powers), or use a two-handed weapon and just endure the loss of a single point of AC. My eladrin spearmage does exactly that and the only reason I haven't played him yet (aside from lack of a game to do so in) is that I also want him to wear chain armor, but haven't figured out how to make that viable.
Would it be nice if the class were more versatile yes, but it's fine enough as is. As a general rule swords are the most mystical weapon, and I'd wager that the list of famous fantasy swords is greater than that of all other famous fantasy weapons combined, especially when it comes to weapons with overt magical qualities. Were I to redesign the swordmage the only thing I'd change would be to, like the monk, allow it to use any weapon that the character is proficient with as an implement, however, the base class itself would only be proficient with light blades and heavy blades. Functionally that would put it in the same position as all other arcane classes, giving it a limited list of default implements but allowing it to expand that list by spending feats.
Would it be nice if the class were more versatile yes,
This is my point.
but it's fine enough as is.
I completely disagree, but we're just going to have to leave it at that.
Tho I like the longsword archetype, the Swordmage class would be better if it allowed more weapon options.
Even if the class only grants a longsword proficiency for free, but benefits from Superior weapon proficiency feats, it would be great. Also Monk Unarmed Strike would be cool for an Arcane UFC build.
(I still think "Sentinel" is the best name by far).
Sentinel has been suggested repeatedly, and I think it would be absolutely fantastic!
I also agree 'Sentinel' is an excellent name for a Psionic Defender.
Alright, I have to ask why? Not that I have anything against the name sentinel, but nothing about it seems to evokes a particularly psionic flavor either. Now of course class names don't have to be tied to power source flavor, such as the avenger, but I still don't get why sentinel seems to be so appealing.
Is it just because the monster known as the psychic sentinel looks so cool?
Battlemind is just....pathetically generic. Psionic characters are all going to be participating in battle, and they will all be using their minds. It needs something a lot better to identify itself. Also, as stated, the word is awkward. The two words jammed together don't mesh well, it doesn't roll off the tongue, and it seems forced, like they needed a name, so they just glued two of the most basic things that came to mind when they heard Psionic and Fighting Guy.
In a nutshell, it's because Battlemind is the equivalent of calling the sorcerer Blastmage, or the paladin Godwarrior, or the warden Earthwhacker. Yes, he uses his mind. Yes, he fights battles. That doesn't make the word a good, evocative choice for a class.
No, I get that. I wasn't asking why the name battlemind sucks, I was asking what makes the name sentinel so cool.
Battlemind is just....pathetically generic.
As opposed to Fighter, Rogue, Warlord, Warden, Avenger, etc.?
No, I get that. I wasn't asking why the name battlemind sucks, I was asking what makes the name sentinel so cool.
Two words: Alan Scott
Sentinel is a cool name, but it has nothing to do with a psionic warrior. Now if that psionic warrior's job was to guard something, then the name might make sense.
Sentinel is a cool name, but it has nothing to do with a psionic warrior. Now if that psionic warrior's job was to guard something, then the name might make sense.
Well if it is a defender than the guard part should be self explanatory. Sentinel is a great name for a defender, I just still don't get why people seem to be jumping on it for the PSIONIC defender.
Well if it is a defender than the guard part should be self explanatory. Sentinel is a great name for a defender, I just still don't get why people seem to be jumping on it for the PSIONIC defender.
I think it's that way for several reasons. First off, all of the other power sources pretty much have classic names for the ir defenders: Fighter, Paladin (heck, even Swrodmage), with the exception of Warden, which is pretty generic, but also somehow fits the PRimal power source. Sentinel also definitely sounds like a defender, but something about it sounds like a defender wirh a higher consciousness, or I suppose it somehow just sounds like a mentally disciplined defender.
I also agree that sentinel invokes the thought of a psycic defender more then a martial/arcane/shadow defender, though it could fit with primal.
IWarforged Sentinel anyone?
I like the name 'Sentinel' because ...
- The word denotes a 'guard' who challenges all oncomers. Perfect for the Defender role.
- The word especially refers to one who guards against surprise attacks.
- The emphasis on perceptiveness, connotes mental abilities, including special senses, observation, intelligent analysis, and, by extension, Psionic powers, especially Divinition, such as Scrying and Detection ('clairevoyance' and 'ESP').
Where are you supposed to put the emphasis in Battlemind?
Battlemind?
Battlemind?
Battlemind?
Battlemind?
Battlemind?
Battlemind?
Battlemind? <--This is how I am currently pronouncing the name.
Swordmage at least has a kind of cadence to it. The soft elongated O rolls right into the hard A. It's two words that could feesibly be combined into a single title. Battle and Mind are too distinct (generally battle-anything is ineffective thanks to the double T and the TLE sound (like beatle) because it can only work with alliteration (Battlebarge) or as the second part of a two-word combo (mindbattle)) to function as a single word.
Sentinel is, still, a great improvement over battlemind. Which is a horrible, horrible name.
We have enough War stuff, there have even been threads complaining about it.
We'll just end up with too many battlethings. Battlelord, Battlelock, Battleden, Battleforged, all of which you Battleaxes. Perhaps those belong in a spoof game.
Here's an idea. Make the character, take a pen, cross out "Battlemind" and re-write "Sentinel" or "Warmind" or whatever you want. I personally call my swordmage a battlemage, my friend calls his ranger a hunter, and the barbarian the berserker. It really doesn't matter. To make myself sound educated, ""What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet."
Because in the end it just doesn't happen that way. You explain what your Sentinel would like to take or you try to tell stories to your fellow gaming buddies about your Sentinel and the first question is "What's a sentinel" followed immediately by "Why don't you just call it a Battlemind?" It's not like Battlemind is such a phenominal name that it can't afford to be changed. I don't think there are legions of people out there screaming for something, anything called a battlemind. It's a rough draft name, something you call it until you think of something better, except that hasn't apparently happened yet.
Here's an idea. Make the character, take a pen, cross out "Battlemind" and re-write "Sentinel" or "Warmind" or whatever you want. I personally call my swordmage a battlemage, my friend calls his ranger a hunter, and the barbarian the berserker. It really doesn't matter. To make myself sound educated, ""What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet."
That's not an excuse for WotC to give something a bad name.
Not that I have a problem with the name, I just think if we are going to pay for a product we should have the right to complain about it regardless of our right to ignore it's flaws or change them.
Because in the end it just doesn't happen that way. You explain what your Sentinel would like to take or you try to tell stories to your fellow gaming buddies about your Sentinel and the first question is "What's a sentinel" followed immediately by "Why don't you just call it a Battlemind?" It's not like Battlemind is such a phenominal name that it can't afford to be changed. I don't think there are legions of people out there screaming for something, anything called a battlemind. It's a rough draft name, something you call it until you think of something better, except that hasn't apparently happened yet.
I agree, the contents of the books are more than just suggestions; they're the language we speak, the conventional concepts we all use as a reference allowing us to understand eachothers' ideas and imagery. When I tell you that my character is a Invoker but with the fluff of a Avenger instead of the default Invoker fluff and I'm calling it a Inquisitor, It would be pretty easy for you get the concept because we both share an understanding of the references, but if I just told you I was playing an Inquisitor you would be left to your own imagination as to what my concept is.
It is because of this that I'm so critical of WotC's fluff; people always are telling me that it's mutable, and yes we all have a poetic licence that can be used if we don't like whats written, but if we all start making stuff up then nobody is going to know what anybody else is talking about
Here's an idea. Make the character, take a pen, cross out "Battlemind" and re-write "Sentinel" or "Warmind" or whatever you want. I personally call my swordmage a battlemage, my friend calls his ranger a hunter, and the barbarian the berserker. It really doesn't matter. To make myself sound educated, ""What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet."
Because in the end it just doesn't happen that way. You explain what your Sentinel would like to take or you try to tell stories to your fellow gaming buddies about your Sentinel and the first question is "What's a sentinel" followed immediately by "Why don't you just call it a Battlemind?" It's not like Battlemind is such a phenominal name that it can't afford to be changed. I don't think there are legions of people out there screaming for something, anything called a battlemind. It's a rough draft name, something you call it until you think of something better, except that hasn't apparently happened yet.
"So, my Battlemind -- or Sentinel, as he calls himself -- went into this cave ..."
Not that hard.
Sure, we complain, but is there any defensible reason for keeping the name, as is?
I'll talk about it more on The Power Source in our next show (of course we're gonna talk about the Battlemind!). Give us a listen, then send us your responses. It'll be a good time.
Jared
Host of The Power Source
www.powersourcepodcast.com
Well, on the same token.....does anyone actually like the name Battlemind? Is there anything remotely good about it? Is anyone going "Oh, boy, Battlemind!"?
Sure, we complain, but is there any defensible reason for keeping the name, as is?
If it's the name of a leader class, then I think it's pretty acceptable (under the assumption that the class uses its psionic powers to subtly guide and direct its allies to improve the tactics of the group). In that case, it's not just someone who uses their mind and does battle, it's someone that actually controls the flow of a battle with their mind.
If it's something that doesn't follow the above outline or something similar, then I would agree that the name is super generic and kind of silly sounding.
Shakespeare was notorious for making up words that nobody knew the meaning of
Pretty sure the French did. Most the time anyway.
At the very least they could change Battlemind to Warmind. The two syllable-one syllable cadence is awkward, especially since it's a hard double-t connecting to another hard "i" in mind. Warmind at least maintains a pair of single syllable words that share the soft-hard vowel.
Where are you supposed to put the emphasis in Battlemind?
Battlemind?
Battlemind?
Battlemind?
Battlemind?
Battlemind?
Battlemind?
Battlemind? <--This is how I am currently pronouncing the name.
Swordmage at least has a kind of cadence to it. The soft elongated O rolls right into the hard A. It's two words that could feesibly be combined into a single title. Battle and Mind are too distinct (generally battle-anything is ineffective thanks to the double T and the TLE sound (like beatle) because it can only work with alliteration (Battlebarge) or as the second part of a two-word combo (mindbattle)) to function as a single word.
This sounds very intelligent because you use words like "cadence" and "alliteration" and reference linguistic terminology, but I don't agree with a word of it. The pronunciation of "Battlemind" seems obvious and intuitive to me, and I can't see how you could mess it up. Your problem may be that you're trying to use a hard "T" instead of a soft one, but I don't think I've ever heard anybody actually pronounce "Battle" with hard "T"'s at the end unless they were either trying to sound melodramatic or have some weird accent. So, pronounce it as "Battlemind".
Don't get me wrong, I don't have any strong opinion on the class name of "Battlemind". I just think that your seemingly intelligent reasoning for disliking it is ridiculous, as is your suggestion that "Mindbattle" sounds better as one word. There are way too many consonant sounds between the "I" and the "A" for that to ever be reasonable.
If it's the name of a leader class, then I think it's pretty acceptable (under the assumption that the class uses its psionic powers to subtly guide and direct its allies to improve the tactics of the group). In that case, it's not just someone who uses their mind and does battle, it's someone that actually controls the flow of a battle with their mind.
Kind of like the Battle Meditation technique from Star Wars expanded universe material. That could work, though I still prefer Empath as the name for for the psionic leader.
Interestingly enough, Battlemind is also a Force technique, and functions somewhat like a self only targeted version of Battle Meditation. So as far as the Galaxy Far Far Away is concerned it might make a fine name for a defender.
On a simultaneously tangential and related note, Sentinels are a subcategory of Jedi, though they'd likely function more like a striker, with Guardians being the defender role Jedi.
Well, on the same token.....does anyone actually like the name Battlemind? Is there anything remotely good about it? Is anyone going "Oh, boy, Battlemind!"?
Sure, we complain, but is there any defensible reason for keeping the name, as is?
I see nothing exciting about any name of any class. The name doesn't influence whether I play the class or not. The choices do. But as far as names go, Battlemind isn't bad, IMO. But again, things like that don't bother me. If it did, I would hate halflings. What the hell is a fullling? Halfling is one of the dumbest racial names ever. But it doesn't bother me, its just a name.
The dwarf is another name, many can't seem to pronounce. Its not Dorf!
Plus, the Dwarf racial name could be offensive to some. But none of it bothers me, just examples. D&D has never been known for their epic naming skills. But, its a game. We don't need months and months of extreme study and polls to decide a name. Its just a name.Now, excuse me while I go point and laugh at the "Orium" dragon.
I would agree the mechanics of a class will be the deciding factor if I play it or not. The name is a trivial thing.
True, but we don't have the mechanics. So all we can do at the moment is fuss over the name, or post in another thread.
If it's the name of a leader class, then I think it's pretty acceptable (under the assumption that the class uses its psionic powers to subtly guide and direct its allies to improve the tactics of the group). In that case, it's not just someone who uses their mind and does battle, it's someone that actually controls the flow of a battle with their mind.
Kind of like the Battle Meditation technique from Star Wars expanded universe material. That could work, though I still prefer Empath as the name for for the psionic leader.
They could make it so that the Empath is one build of this hypothetical leader Battlemind, while the other build focuses more on tactical concerns (akin to a Jedi battle meditation). I could see con/cha and con/wis respectively being the stat arrays they use for this if it's the case.
Seems the Empath is a Leader, and the Battlemind a Defender.
I prefer the Leader Empath and the Defender Battlemind have nothing to do with eachother. Im tired of the 'Cleric clones' of the previous editions. Just because a character can heal, doesnt mean em must wear armor and swing a substandard melee weapon! There can be healers who are mages, who avoid melee and atttack and heal at Ranged.
4e killed the Cleric clone by allowing the 'Lazer Cleric' to function well as a mage without becoming a melee Defender. I want the Psionic power source to lack any trace of the Cleric clone tradition.
Besides, the Empath is telepathic (and probably telekinetic), whose powers operate at distant targets. So presumably the Empath can heal allies in Ranged and Area, effectively. The Empath may be a pure mage - may not need any armor - and may be unsuitable for the Defender role.
< Mol: They could make it so that the Empath is one build of this hypothetical leader Battlemind. >
Seems the Empath is a Leader, and the Battlemind a Defender.
I prefer the Leader Empath and the Defender Battlemind have nothing to do with eachother. Im tired of the 'Cleric clones' of the previous editions. Just because a character can heal, doesnt mean em must wear armor and swing a substandard melee weapon! There can be healers who are mages, who avoid melee and atttack and heal at Ranged.
4e killed the Cleric clone by allowing the 'Lazer Cleric' to function well as a mage without becoming a melee Defender. I want the Psionic power source to lack any trace of the Cleric clone tradition.
Besides, the Empath is telepathic (and probably telekinetic), whose powers operate at distant targets. So presumably the Empath can heal allies in Ranged and Area, effectively. The Empath may be a pure mage - may not need any armor - and may be unsuitable for the Defender role.
From the fiction I'm familiar with, "empath" doesn't typically refer to someone with telekinesis; it refers to someone that can read emotions and possibly communicate telepathically. I'm not sure why you assume that the leader class I described would have to swing a melee weapon at all though; there's nothing about a battle-meld type of setup that requires the person to even be attacking to be able to help direct forces.
From the fiction I'm familiar with, "empath" doesn't typically refer to someone with telekinesis; it refers to someone that can read emotions and possibly communicate telepathically.
This. Empathy and telekinesis have nothing to do with one another. It might have something to do with telepathy, and in the context of a psionic character, it probably will, but telekinesis is an entirely different sort of power.
< Mol: From the fiction I'm familiar with, "empath" doesn't typically refer to someone with telekinesis; it refers to someone that can read emotions and possibly communicate telepathically.
Crimson: This. Empathy and telekinesis have nothing to do with one another. >
Yeah, but it occurs to me .. since the Empath is a Psionic Leader, em may have powers that boost the AC of allies, and this could be understood as granting a telekinetic Force shield. Other buffs could be telekinetic in flavor as well.
< Mol: From the fiction I'm familiar with, "empath" doesn't typically refer to someone with telekinesis; it refers to someone that can read emotions and possibly communicate telepathically.
Crimson: This. Empathy and telekinesis have nothing to do with one another. >
Yeah, but it occurs to me .. since the Empath is a Psionic Leader, em may have powers that boost the AC of allies, and this could be understood as granting a telekinetic Force shield. Other buffs could be telekinetic in flavor as well.
A granted defense bonus doesn't nessarcarily have to be telepathic. It could simply be the leader granting thier ally a glimpse of the enemies attack before it happens allowing them to react early and increasing their chances of dodging/blocking/moving so the blow glances or catches the middle of a plate rather than a joint.
Yes this is precognition rather than empathy but I still feel that would work better with the Empath than telekinesis, it would also make a good explanation for granting attack bonuses too. YMMV.
A granted defense bonus doesn't nessarcarily have to be telepathic. It could simply be the leader granting thier ally a glimpse of the enemies attack before it happens allowing them to react early and increasing their chances of dodging/blocking/moving so the blow glances or catches the middle of a plate rather than a joint.
Yes this is precognition rather than empathy but I still feel that would work better with the Empath than telekinesis, it would also make a good explanation for granting attack bonuses too. YMMV.
Well if you have the empath's abilities extend to being able to work on enemies as well, then it wouldn't really be "precognition", but allowing an ally to feel where the monster is going to attack and thereby move out of the way.
Anyway, I think it'll definitely be the Psionic Defender, and the Empath will be the leader. I also think one of the builds will be SoulKnife, or they'll probably release a full SoulKnife class in a later supplement.
Just as a base guess, if this is basically the Psychic Warrior renamed, I'd expect it to focus a lot on Psychometabolism to bolster it's own defenses and make itself tougher to take down, possibly with a leaderly build (like the Warden) that lets it buff it's allies' abilities too. Only catch with that is you'd have to balance the mark out with the possible buffing really carefully. Too little power and you have a crappy defender who can't get his enemies to attack him, too much power and the enemy is essentially stunlocked since it can't attack anyone without either wasting its attack on a nigh-unkillable tank, or being savaged by the tank's mark.
I would also expect its other build to be controllery, with lots of forced movement.
As for his mark, if any class can pull off the ranged defender schtick, I'd expect Psionic to be the power source for it. As of yet, only the Swordmage has any potential to defend at a distance, so a class feature that allows the Battlemind to make AoOs at a distance against his marked enemy would go a LONG way in establishing his place among the other defenders.
But really, what I think isn't going to make WotC change the name, so there's no point in complaining about it. I doubt they're going to pull a last minute revision of a book that's probably already 3/4ths completed just to change the name of one class.
What? You mean denizens of the innerbuttz can't force WOTC to acquiesce to their demands by merely WHINING REALLY LOUD? Crazy talk.
Everyone saying Sentinel is a better name needs to realize something. Warden and Sentinel are synonyms. They both mean the same thing, a guardian. Sure this is the general idea of a defender but it's just as generic as Battlemind.
A granted defense bonus doesn't nessarcarily have to be telepathic. It could simply be the leader granting thier ally a glimpse of the enemies attack before it happens allowing them to react early and increasing their chances of dodging/blocking/moving so the blow glances or catches the middle of a plate rather than a joint.
Yes this is precognition rather than empathy but I still feel that would work better with the Empath than telekinesis, it would also make a good explanation for granting attack bonuses too. YMMV.
Well if you have the empath's abilities extend to being able to work on enemies as well, then it wouldn't really be "precognition", but allowing an ally to feel where the monster is going to attack and thereby move out of the way.
That's a good point, I like that much better than my proposed explanation.
Okay,
Everyone saying Sentinel is a better name needs to realize something. Warden and Sentinel are synonyms. They both mean the same thing, a guardian. Sure this is the general idea of a defender but it's just as generic as Battlemind.
I don't feel like class names have to be amazingly descriptive of the class itself. Examples include:
- Fighter - Oooooh, a person who fights. Oh wait, that's everyone in 4e.
- Monk - Contemplative person. That really just describes them sooo well.
- Rogue - A person who's ... rogue. Doesn't necessarily mean they steal and backstab, but that's the class.
- Warden - A guardian.
- etc.
Really, I have no problem with these names, general though they might be. Thus, I feel Sentinel not only evokes a more interesting image than the Battlemind, but also likely describes the class better, even if it is general.
Yeah. Likewise, just because a class is called an 'Empath' doesnt mean they need to sit in a wheelchair. They must also do other stuff - besides 'perceiving emotions'.
Hopefully, Empaths will be able to kick ass - and hopefully, this Psionicist class will be a mage and wont need Martialist melee weapons to kick ass.
Okay,
Everyone saying Sentinel is a better name needs to realize something. Warden and Sentinel are synonyms. They both mean the same thing, a guardian.
You know that Wizard and Sorcerer mean the same thing. They may have different origins as words in the English language, but they are just as similiar as Warden and Sentinel.
This is D&D we have lots of classes which have names that mean the same thing, though D&D gives them a different meaning.
I think "sentinel" is a fine name for a Defender class, but I prefer "battlemind" for the Psionic Defender (presuming that's what the battlemind is). Battlemind sounds more cerebral to me, and I think it reinforces the psuedo-science feel of the "new wave" Psionic classes (as opposed to the monk, which in 4e represents an older tradition of psionic magic user). "Battlemind" also has more of an active, dynamic feel, as if the character is processing a variety of strategies. Sentinel - by it's very definition, I guess - feels a bit more passive.
Actually, Psionic has been traditionally very Pseudo-Science. In 4e They've said they're trying to take it to a more fantasy direction, and I think the name Battlemind not only sounds retarded, but is doing exactly the opposite.
And Sentinel makes wonderful sense when you consider the Psionic Fluff in 4e, what with them being sprouted up because of the Far Realm. Someone who protects the world from the Far Realm? Sounds pretty "Sentinel" to me.
Actually, Psionic has been traditionally very Pseudo-Science. In 4e They've said they're trying to take it to a more fantasy direction, and I think the name Battlemind not only sounds retarded, but is doing exactly the opposite.
How does the name "Battlemind" sound pseudo-scientific at all? If it were "Cerebral Soldier", then I could understand this, but it's just "Battlemind". There really nothing at all pseudo-scientific about the name.
I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other about the name, but come now, just saying "I don't like it." is fine. You don't need to make up any petty little excuses like this not to like it.
Words like Psion, Warden, Sentinel and Avenger connote things in a more subtle way. It's a word we all recognize to exist -- maybe Psion isn't a real word, but it's a staple of D&D now and is not an amalgam of words -- but is relatively "mature." That is to say, these are real words that harken back to history and "real" stuff like medieval warfare, elder civilizations and, heck, movies sometimes reinforce ideas this way too. People accept these words as effective because they're essentially cool; they're "mature," they're dangerous, and they fit the class as the person imagines it.
Purely speculation with no background in psychology, but that's how I think this rebuke of the term "Battlemind" comes about. Not a real word, isn't a steeple of D&D or other fantasy/sci-fi, so it's awkward. Really, it's no different than Warmage.
Tangential afterthought: "Battlemind" is one of these things that's not like the other ones. Warmind would have helped it fit in a lot, and War connotes historical battles. But I read one of the members saying they heard (I'm gossiping, so take it with a grain of salt) that the change was purely because of the surplus of classes that start with "War-" as it is. We have Wardens, Warlocks and Warlords. Seems like they feel like breaking the mold a lot in PH3.
Purely speculation with no background in psychology, but that's how I think this rebuke of the term "Battlemind" comes about. Not a real word, isn't a steeple of D&D or other fantasy/sci-fi, so it's awkward. Really, it's no different than Warmage.
I can't speak for everyone, but I loved the 3.5 Warmage class and I found the name both functionally descriptive and evocative (as the default flavor is that they were mages specially trained for warfare).
As for the concept that a made up word like psion is okay because it has a history in the game, that's just being nitpicky. Every word or name was once new. Things that are older aren't necessarily more valid merely by age. Also whether a name is compound word or some made up pseudo latin terminology doesn't dictate one as being in any way more "mature" than the other. It's still all just making stuff up.
As for the concept that a made up word like psion is okay because it has a history in the game, that's just being nitpicky. Every word or name was new once new. Things that are older aren't necessarily more valid merely by age. Also whether a name is compound word or some made up pseudo latin terminology doesn't dictate one as being in any way more "mature" than the other. It's still all just making stuff up.
QFT
I'm sure you've noticed that many of the schools from the Book of Nine Swords are showing up in 4E classes, I'm thinking it's because the Book of the Nine Swords was testing ground for 4E concepts that the schools in that book were based on what they might do as 4E classes
Which makes me think that the Battlemind might be carrying the torch for Diamond Mind, which would go along with the Battlemind being the Wuxia warrior that some predict it to be
A) Like most things in the Tome of Battle, Diamond Mind wasn't at all Wuxia.
B) I don't think that just because the Monk is Psionic is enough reason to believe that other Psionic classes will fall into its Eastern theme. In fact, I hope that Monk is the only one that does so. Now, I could definitely see a PHB3 Divine class following the theme and also using Ki Focuses...
C) Were Diamond Mind to be reproduced in 4E, I see no reason why an exiting martial class couldn't cover it. As a matter of fact, I don't think that there's any reason to believe that the Fighter doesn't already cover it.
D) As I understand it, it's 99% likely that the Battle-Mind will be a CON-primary class, and that doesn't exactly scream Diamond Mind to me. It it were WIS, it might be a different story...
You be the judge.
DIAMOND MIND
That's what the entire point of the Tome of Battle was, to show that you don't have to be a supernatural character in order to do cool or smart things. If you missed that, then you missed the entire point of the Book of Nine Swords.
EDIT: Just because I feel like I need to clarify, I don't think that Psionic classes shouldn't be able to do things that Diamond Mind did. I'm just saying that doing what Diamond Mind did the way the Diamond Mind did it is in the realm of Martial, not Psionic.
No, there's nothing remotely supernatural about the Diamond Mind discipline.
Moving faster than the speed of thought isn't remotely supernatural... Ohhh Crimson, must you be so dramatic?
But when I went back read Diamond Mind and it's maneuvers, It was not as super natural as I remembered.
Oh well... Just something to think about
Moving faster than the speed of thought isn't remotely supernatural...
They're called "reflexes". Everybody has them. They're one third of your non-AC defenses.
And moving faster than your opponent's speed of thought is called "feinting". You don't even need to be trained in Bluff to do it.
Ohhh Crimson, must you be so dramatic?
Always. ^_^
Desert Wind = Swordmage
Devoted Spirit = Paladin
Diamond Mind = Monk
Iron Heart = Fighter
Setting Sun = Monk
Shadow Hand = Assassin/Rogue
Stone Dragon = Warden
Tiger Claw = Barbarian/Druid
White Raven = Warlord
I'm not sure how many grappling/throwing manuevers the 4E monk will get (they might be part of the STR/DEX build or may be reserved for a new Monk build in Psionic Power), but a lot of the Setting Sun manuevers seem tailor-built for Monks.
There's a few possibilities for powers and abilities that a Psionic Defender could have (since the battlemind will probably be the Psionic Defender):
Telekinetic Weapon: An attack that deals weapon damage to an enemy from a distance, representing the battlemind throwing his weapon at an enemy and guiding it back to his hand with telekinetic force. May allow the battlemind to mark enemies at a distance. Use of power points may let him hit multiple enemies with the attack.
Precognition: The battlemind gains a bonus either to AC or attack rolls, representing his ability to predict the movements of his enemy. May also be an empath/ardent power, but the Psionic Leader's ability may apply to all allies.
The Battle Mind turns her psionic potential into the ultimate weapon. The Battle Mind combines physical prowess with mental energy to become a devastating warrior. Using telekinetics, pyrokinetics, and biokinetics, the Battle Mind employs psionics with the subtlety of an assassin or the hard-hitting power of an explosive force. Whether forging weapons of bio-energy or mentallly manipulating physical objects, calling forth fire from her mind or unleashing a bolt of mental energy, the Battle Mind is never at a loss for an offensive strategy.
Select this advanced class if you want your character to master the psionic art of mental combat and become a Battle Mind.
The fastest path into this advanced class is from the Strong hero basic class, though other paths are possible.
d20 Modern Battle Minds manifest psi-blades, "glowing blades of mental energy." They also can imprint tatoos and create a psychic shield that's similar a swordmage's warding.
I don't think we'll see everything from the d20 Modern Battle Mind make transition to 4e. But, I think the 4e batlemind will be a psionic warrior, skilled in combat. While I don' think the 4e battlemind will have any special ability to make tatoos, I can easily see psychic weaponry and shielding making the transition. It probably will be the Psionic Defender.
Diamond Mind is certainly psionic, it was the one of the more supernatural schools in Tome of Battle.
No, this is just false. As a matter of fact, Diamond Mind one one of the less supernatural schools. The supernatural schools were Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and to an extent, Devoted Spirit. Otherwise, everything in that book was meant to be and succeeded in being completely mundane. Now, Diamond Mind certainly sounds psionic if you haven't actually read its maneuvers, but you need to realize the general descriptions of everything martial and mundane in D&D make metaphorical comparisons that make them sound supernatural if you don't get that they're just exaggerated descriptions.
The one that emphasized the mind that is martial is the White Raven School which is the Warlord class.
You write as though there could only have been one martial school that emphasised the mind, but that's not the case. Diamond Mind and White Raven were both mundane schools that emphasised the mind, just in different ways.
Stone Dragon = Warden
Tiger Claw = Barbarian/Druid
These are both completely off-base. Stone Dragon was another school that was completely mundane, basically having the flavor of every Dwarf Fighter ever, nothing primal about it. And Tiger Claw was also completely mundane, simply emphasizing two-weapon fighting. It was the Ranger, and in 4E, it could also be a Martial Barbarian using that one two-weapon build.
I would have thought that by now people would have gotten it though their heads that there was relatively very little supernatural going in the Tome of Battle, especially since the book just introduced the system that's what completely martial classes use today in 4E.
Crusader was combined with Knight and the old Paladin to make the current Paladin.
Tome of Battle was a testing ground for a number of 4e melee classes, while simultaneously creating classes that people could use to play a Fighter or similar martial classes while bringing them up to par with the magical classes. Because being a Fighter sucked in 3.5e.
Psionic is also broader and more inclusive in 4e, and no longer Pseudoscientifical. So there's no reason why the Diamond Mind can't join Psionic now. Monk was Martial, y'know.
Just because Tome of Battle had purely martial classes in them, doesn't mean they weren't inspiration for elements from magical classes in 4e.
I never suggested that Martial schools couldn't be inspiration for supernatural classes in 4E. I'm just saying that it's not a direct port. Flavor changes need to be made during the transfer in many cases, and Diamond Mind to Psionic would be one of them.
So there's no reason why the Diamond Mind can't join Psionic now.
Again, I'm not saying that Psionic classes shouldn't be able to do things that Diamon Mind could do. I'm just saying that doing them the same way the Diamon Mind did it would not be Psionic but Martial.
Monk was Martial, y'know.
What? Monk was never martial. It got a bunch of supernatural abilities from early levels.
What? Monk was never martial. It got a bunch of supernatural abilities from early levels
Ohhh Crimson; you're crazy, I like you, but you're crazy.
Okay, so that might have been a slight exaggeration, but you can't tell me that Ki Strike (overcoming DR/magic), Wholeness of Body (a supernatural healing power), Diamond Body (supernatural poison immunity), Abundent Step (teleportation), Quivering Palm (Supernatural save or die), and Empty Body (ethereality) don't support my statement. Even some of their former "(Ex)" abilities like Purity of Body, Diamond Soul, Timeless Body, and Tongue of the Sun and Moon are at the very least very suspect.
You could certainly make the case that a Monk between levels 1 and 3 was totally Martial, but as soon as Ki Strike hits at level 4, I think that the supernatural flavor takes its hold.
Diamond Mind is not remotely supernatural
Diamond Body is very much supernatural
stopping time = Martial
resisting poison = some kind of magic
Your right, I don't think I would even know who you are if you weren't this crazy
Diamond Mind is not remotely supernatural
stopping time = Martial
There are no Diamond Mind maneuvers that stop time.
Diamond Body is very much supernatural
resisting poison = some kind of magic
When it has the "(Su)" tag for "Supernatural" as opposed to the "(Ex)" tag for "Extraordinary", then yes.
Diamond Mind is certainly psionic, it was the one of the more supernatural schools in Tome of Battle.
No, this is just false. As a matter of fact, Diamond Mind one one of the less supernatural schools. The supernatural schools were Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and to an extent, Devoted Spirit. Otherwise, everything in that book was meant to be and succeeded in being completely mundane. Now, Diamond Mind certainly sounds psionic if you haven't actually read its maneuvers, but you need to realize the general descriptions of everything martial and mundane in D&D make metaphorical comparisons that make them sound supernatural if you don't get that they're just exaggerated descriptions.
I'm guessing you meant Desert Wind instead of Setting Sun, since the former based a lot of its powers on setting your weapon on fire (which would be rather hard to do without magic or several vials of alchemist's fire). Though some of the latter Setting Sun throw powers (such as the Ballista Throw and Tornado Throw) could get pretty wild, they didn't seem too off-base compared to the more mundane martial powers.
Has anybody ever learned what the story is on that guy in the front with the crystal and tattoos brandishing an energy spear?
Seriously, Fighters DEFEND, Iron Heart was an ATTACk style. Just because they have the same name does not mean the powers are equal in value.
To Summarize:
Iron Heart focusing Warblade=NO 4th edition CLASS!!!
Fighter=NOT A WARBLADE!!!
You, if you believe that it does=In drastic need of chemical sterilization, in order to avoid the DE-evoloution of the human race!
(I apologize for becoming a troll over this, but I greatly dislike this whole "Warblade=Fighter" thing that is spreading on the forums. Similar power names and flavor, VASTLY diffrent mechanics and playstyle.)
Presumably, hes a Psion, this guys brother.
(Im tired of *every* male Wizard pic being a longhair goatee. Can we get one goodlooking clean-cut Wizard pic. Please? LOL! Il cry if *every* male Psion is bald.)
< McN: That guy in the front with the crystal and tattoos brandishing an energy spear? >
Presumably, hes a Psion, this guys brother.
(Im tired of *every* male Wizard pic being a longhair goatee. Can we get one goodlooking clean-cut Wizard pic. Please? LOL! Il cry if *every* male Psion is bald.)
Hey, the Wizard in PH1 was clean-cut. Notably, he was an Eladrin, so that makes sense since they don't have facial hair, but he was clean-cut. Not all Wizards are Gandalf clones (and Gandalf was an Invoker, not a Wizard, in any case).
Anyways the Diamond Mind, breaks the barrier of what I consider normal for the Martial Power Source. Many of it's low level abilities are things that might be possible at Epic levels for martial, but to me it definitely breaks that barrier right at low levels.
< McN: That guy in the front with the crystal and tattoos brandishing an energy spear? >
Presumably, hes a Psion, this guys brother.
(Im tired of *every* male Wizard pic being a longhair goatee. Can we get one goodlooking clean-cut Wizard pic. Please? LOL! Il cry if *every* male Psion is bald.)
Hey, the Wizard in PH1 was clean-cut. Notably, he was an Eladrin, so that makes sense since they don't have facial hair, but he was clean-cut. Not all Wizards are Gandalf clones (and Gandalf was an Invoker, not a Wizard, in any case).
Then we also need more beared rogues/assasins.
Anyways the Diamond Mind, breaks the barrier of what I consider normal for the Martial Power Source. Many of it's low level abilities are things that might be possible at Epic levels for martial, but to me it definitely breaks that barrier right at low levels.
I've found that with Tome of Battle, it's apparently easy for a lot of people to talk like they think they know about it when it turns out they've never actually read or understood the material, like the guy on the last page who thought that there were Diamond Mind maneuvers that could stop time (again, there are not). So, at this point, I have to ask for examples, because I don't see any early level maneuvers that strain credibility very much at all. I mean, I can look at most of these maneuvers and find things that are flavored the same way and do basically the same thing right now at lower levels in 4E. It just used to sound like they did crazy stuff because that was back when Fighter and the other melee weapon classes sucked and didn't ever get nice things.
Gandalf is a wizard and says so both in the movies and in the books to think otherwise is silly. He is not relgious at all so there goes your invoker idea, though he is a minor god. He is practiced and well trained so that also rules out sorcerer and he does not have a pact so that leaves out warlock so by process of elimination that leaves wizards.
Gandalf is a wizard and says so both in the movies and in the books to think otherwise is silly. He is not relgious at all so there goes your invoker idea, though he is a minor god. He is practiced and well trained so that also rules out sorcerer and he does not have a pact so that leaves out warlock so by process of elimination that leaves wizards.
That's only if you consider fluff binding, which it isn't.
Gandalf is a wizard and says so both in the movies and in the books to think otherwise is silly. He is not relgious at all so there goes your invoker idea, though he is a minor god. He is practiced and well trained so that also rules out sorcerer and he does not have a pact so that leaves out warlock so by process of elimination that leaves wizards.
That's only if you consider fluff binding, which it isn't.
And also if you think that Gandalf should be defined by D&D classes. The invoker class is the Gandalf class, and if you had to place him within a D&D class, that would be his class. The three builds were specifically made with different aspects of him in mind (meaning it's impossible to play him in D&D, because you'd never get the full him without being able to use ALL the class features).
Word of God (or Wizards, in this case). Appeared in the podcast preview of Divine Power, when they talked about Divine classes, and they specifically said that Invokers were the Gandalf class.
And he fits into the Invoker fluff rather nicely actually; he's devoted to Manwë (chosen specifically by the King of the Valar to go to Middle-Earth), rather than singing, speaks poetry that invokes Illúvatar and the Valar (prayers, in this case), and is seen with aspects of Preserving, Wrathful, and Malediction in the books and the movies (Malediction was specifically designed after the "BILBO BAGGINS! DO NOT TAKE ME FOR SOME CONJUROR OF CHEAP TRICKS!" scene). He had to take a feat to use Swords, but otherwise fits perfectly into the Invoker crunch and fluff.
Also, he's a Deva Invoker. Devas well represent the Maiar. They may call it a Wizard, but they also called Radagast (a Druid) as Wizard. In Middle-Earth, if you're classed, not martial, a Bard, or an Elf, you're a ranged implement controller, and they called all the controllers Wizards, even if they were not.
You have to take it as D&D recategorising Middle-Earth fluff to better fit crunch. Eladrin is certainly a fitting race for Galadriel, but Legolas is an Elf. Both are CALLED Elves in Middle-Earth, but if you're converting it over, you have to play what they actually do, not what they call themselves in the canon-fluff.
Mielee, for a D&D canon example, is now an Eladrin. So is Soveliss. Both were Elves in past editions, but fit more cleanly into the concepts of what 4e Eladrin are supposed to be.
Now I've gotten us way off topic, but what this all comes down to is that refluffing is necessary for transcribing concepts to the new edition.
Many of the Tome of Battle Schools are actually not Martial, and the classes aren't either. Crusader is divine, even if it doesn't use Divine Spells. It draws it's powers from it's faith, which is a divine element. It gets power from the Divine Power source; this was wrapped back into the Paladin for 4e because it fits better (in fact, combining it with the Knight's Challenge and old features of the Paladin as well). Warblade has been emulated by several different weapon-using classes (Barbarian especially). Swordsage hasn't fully found it's place in 4e, though elements of it can be seen in Swordmage and Monk.
Tome of Battle wasn't a book about Martial Power. Not in the 4e sense, at least. It was a book about weapon powers – Blade Magic, they called it.
Shadow Hand was one of the few Shadow "classes" in 3.5e, along with the Shadowcaster. Of course, you had to be a Swordsage to use Shadow Hand (or take the prototype multiclass feat for Tome of Battle mannoeuvres and stances). White Raven used ki back then, but they decided the concept would be better rolled into the Marshal's new form in 4e, the Warlord. Tiger Claw also used ki in Tome of Battle, but it really was a prototype for the Predator Druid and other wild shape powers of the Druid in 4e. Setting Sun, Desert Wind, and Diamond Mind all have found their way into the Centred Breath Monk, and I wouldn't be surprised if Stone Dragon was found in the Stone Fist Monk.
There were (su) effects in Tome of Battle, though most were (ex) abilities. These were mostly to avoid antimagic and other spell-effects. Those are gone now, and Martial is the sole "non-magic" power source. Martial is something of an odd-ball, in this case, because many of the defining characteristics of it – weapons, armour, will and perseverance to overcome their foes, can be seen in other classes that aren't martial. But in 4e, the martial character trains the body over the mind, while the Psionic trains the mind over the body. Diamond Mind and Setting Sun at least have found their way into Psionic, where "true quickness lies in the mind, not in the body" and "strength is an illusion." Setting Sun is essentially Aikido/Aikiken.
Devoted Spirit is Divine. It's just another way of praying without casting spells. It was essentially what melee Paladins, Clerics, and Avengers do now.
Iron Heart is the most "Martial" of all the Tome of Battle disciplines; there's no reason that there wouldn't be an actual Martial conversion amongst the "Martial Disciplines" of Tome of Battle. But Tome of Battle classes and Disciplines would not all be able to be considered Martial in the 4e sense.
Yeah, I noted the irony. The only reason this PH1 Wizard *didnt* have a goatee was because the Eladrin *cant* have one. I love that picture because he reminds me of a UFO alien. LOL, but even then, I cant even call him 'cleancut' because hes a hippie longhair.LOL! I guess, only classes that wield a sword or dagger know how to shave.
Many of the Tome of Battle Schools are actually not Martial, and the classes aren't either.
I'm aware. All I'm saying is that many of them are, and Divine Mind is one of them.
White Raven used ki back then, but they decided the concept would be better rolled into the Marshal's new form in 4e, the Warlord. Tiger Claw also used ki in Tome of Battle, but it really was a prototype for the Predator Druid and other wild shape powers of the Druid in 4e.
Both of these assertions are ridiculous. White Raven and Tiger Claw were exactly two of the classes in the Tome of Battle that were completely mundane in concept and nature. There was no ki involved unless you wanted there to be. Just look over them. Nothing supernatural or even that crazy is present in either school, and that idea that Tiger Claw had anything at all to do with the 4E Druid is absolutely laughable. At best, it may have been used in inspiring some things for the now Primal Barbarian, but most if not all of what Tiger Claw could do is easily found in the 4E Ranger class.
Setting Sun, Desert Wind, and Diamond Mind all have found their way into the Centred Breath Monk, and I wouldn't be surprised if Stone Dragon was found in the Stone Fist Monk.
Again, while the mechanical and conceptual outcomes of those school may indeed do so, nothing supernatural actually needs to take place in any school you just mentioned other than Desert Wind, and Diamond Mind and Stone Dragon maneuvers (along with others) can already be found to have been translated over into 4E Martial classes without any flavor change at all.
But in 4e, the martial character trains the body over the mind, while the Psionic trains the mind over the body.
Absolutely ridiculous. You can certainly be smart and use your brain while still being martial. Why are there so many heavily WIS-using Fighter and Ranger builds? CHA-using Rogue builds? And then there's the Warlord... The idea that Martial must be all brawn and no brain is not only incorrect but destructive to player options.
Setting Sun is essentially Aikido/Aikiken.
Are you suggesting that Aikido practitioners in the real world must therefore be Psionic? O_o
Iron Heart is the most "Martial" of all the Tome of Battle disciplines;
No, it's just the most plain discipline. Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven are exactly as Martial. Again, only Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and to some extent Devoted Spirit were ever meant to be anything other than completely mundane. A random maneuver here or there might break the pattern, but in general, this holds true.
Presumably, hes a Psion, this guys brother.
That's what I thought too when I fist saw the picture
But now that we've seen the Psion class, I'm a bit confused; the Psion doesn't use crystals and doesn't seem like the kinda class that would throw energy javelins, I could see them hitting someone with a force spike but not forming it their hand and then hurling it at somebody.
Maybe it's a different Psionic class...
In 3e, despite many exceptions to the contrary, gamers often felt, anything strictly superhuman couldnt be part of the Fighter class. Of course, 4e gamers are conscious of the previous inconsistencies and now knowingly define the Martial power source as able to accomplish superhuman actions.
So, certain powers that were once explicitly 'Supernatural' in 3e, are often best understood as 'Martial' in 4e.
Moreover, by definition, any powers that were 'Extraordinary' in 3e become 'Martial' in 4e.
3e skills could do 'Extraordinary' actions at Epic levels. For example, Balance could do quasi-magic effects like Body Equalibrium, to be so dexterous as to walk on walk. In 4e, such Extraordinary actions are part of the standard Martial repertoire.
It seems obvious to me too, the heightened perception and reflexes of 3e Diamond Mind are necessarily part of the 'Extraordinary' Martial power source.
Ok, another thing has come to my attention, a relic from the PHB:
Has anybody ever learned what the story is on that guy in the front with the crystal and tattoos brandishing an energy spear?
He's might be a psion, but he's most likely a Human Warlock, the crystal a stylized rod, and the energy spear a stylized spell. Given that all the other characters pictured are PH1 (Elf Ranger, Dwarf Warlord, Eladrin Paladin, and Halfling Wizard) it would seem unlikely that a class that was at the time non-existent would be pictured.
The next time I see someone compare the martial perfection that was Iron Heart to the lumpy piece of $#*% Fighter, I am going to go F#$%&^* INSANE!
You, if you believe that it does=In drastic need of chemical sterilization, in order to avoid the DE-evoloution of the human race!
(I apologize for becoming a troll over this, but I greatly dislike this whole "Warblade=Fighter" thing that is spreading on the forums. Similar power names and flavor, VASTLY diffrent mechanics and playstyle.)
Chill man. This is 4e, all the mechanics are vastly different. What matters are the themes.
Also, it's a known fact that Bot9S was a major test-bed for 4e mechanics (emphasis on TEST), so it's very likely that most of the 4e melee classes are based on it to some degree. WotC threw out what didn't work and then incorporated the rest into 4e, so naturally playstyles will differ as well. The new Paladin doesn't use the Crusader's random powers mechanics, but otherwise the similarities are obvious. Likewise, both the new Fighter and Warlord draw heavily on the Warblade (each representing different school specializations).
Many of the Tome of Battle Schools are actually not Martial, and the classes aren't either.
I'm aware. All I'm saying is that many of them are, and Divine Mind is one of them.
You mean Diamond Mind, right?
White Raven used ki back then, but they decided the concept would be better rolled into the Marshal's new form in 4e, the Warlord. Tiger Claw also used ki in Tome of Battle, but it really was a prototype for the Predator Druid and other wild shape powers of the Druid in 4e.
Both of these assertions are ridiculous. White Raven and Tiger Claw were exactly two of the classes in the Tome of Battle that were completely mundane in concept and nature. There was no ki involved unless you wanted there to be. Just look over them. Nothing supernatural or even that crazy is present in either school, and that idea that Tiger Claw had anything at all to do with the 4E Druid is absolutely laughable. At best, it may have been used in inspiring some things for the now Primal Barbarian, but most if not all of what Tiger Claw could do is easily found in the 4E Ranger class.
No. White Raven and Tiger Claw BOTH say they use ki in Tome of Battle. I suggest you read their descriptions over again more closely. In 4e, White Raven was FLUFFED into Martial, removing the ki
references, because at that point, they thought that ki would be something that Monks would do, and was a different Power Source altogether. Now that ki is something that isn't a Power Source or across power sources at least, it should be noted that a good proponent of ki is in Psionic now, at least fluff-wise. Tiger Claw may be inspiration for a number of 4e classes, some of which are Ranger builds, but Druid and Barbarian both get in on the action. Druids just turn into an actual animal while doing it, while Barbarians remain in a human form. You're right though, Barbarian builds with their Rages fit it to the T.
Setting Sun, Desert Wind, and Diamond Mind all have found their way into the Centred Breath Monk, and I wouldn't be surprised if Stone Dragon was found in the Stone Fist Monk.
Again, while the mechanical and conceptual outcomes of those school may indeed do so, nothing supernatural actually needs to take place in any school you just mentioned other than Desert Wind, and Diamond Mind and Stone Dragon maneuvers (along with others) can already be found to have been translated over into 4E Martial classes without any flavor change at all.
Setting Sun and Diamond Mind both emphasis themes that Psionic emphasises. Just because you equate what a power does to a power source doesn't make it so. The Power Source is completely related to where the source of the Power is, and both of them, it's Mind over Matter. These are both themes of the Monk, and why the Monk WOULDN'T BE MARTIAL EVEN IF IT DIDN'T DO ANY SUPERNATURAL EFFECTS.
But in 4e, the martial character trains the body over the mind, while the Psionic trains the mind over the body.
Absolutely ridiculous. You can certainly be smart and use your brain while still being martial. Why are there so many heavily WIS-using Fighter and Ranger builds? CHA-using Rogue builds? And then there's the Warlord... The idea that Martial must be all brawn and no brain is not only incorrect but destructive to player options.
No. Because Martial Classes are all Strength or Dexterity in their primary. Wisdom and Charisma and Intelligence are very secondary aspect to them. Monk may use Dexterity as a primary, but its OUTLOOK on mind over muscle is very different from EVERY SINGLE MARTIAL CLASS. Even though a Tactical Warlord may be a genius, he still cares more about his Strength than his Intelligence. Unless you believe those CharOp forum people who say that Intelligence should be higher despite it being the rider for the class...
Setting Sun is essentially Aikido/Aikiken.
Are you suggesting that Aikido practitioners in the real world must therefore be Psionic? O_o
No, but I'm suggesting that the themes of Aikido fit a lot more into Psionic than Martial. Aikido cares a lot less about physical strength and training, and more about inner discipline, and using the foe's strength against them. This is a distinctly Psionic theme in 4e.
Iron Heart is the most "Martial" of all the Tome of Battle disciplines;
No, it's just the most plain discipline. Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven are exactly as Martial. Again, only Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and to some extent Devoted Spirit were ever meant to be anything other than completely mundane. A random maneuver here or there might break the pattern, but in general, this holds true.
No, because as I said before, what a Power does ≠ where the Power comes from. Otherwise, there would be no reason for an Elemental Power Source, because Sorcerers and Wizards already achieve elemental effects, as do Druids and other classes. This, in fact, is the major argument people have made about why elemental shouldn't exist, because elements are already used in Sorcerer and Wizard powers, and Chaos Sorcerers have elemental-chaos-infused blood. But the Power Sources are indeed different, and Psionic and Martial have a very fine, but important difference, based on whether they focus on mental discipline or on martial strength and manoeuvres.
Presumably, hes a Psion, this guys brother.
That's what I thought too when I fist saw the picture
But now that we've seen the Psion class, I'm a bit confused; the Psion doesn't use crystals and doesn't seem like the kinda class that would throw energy javelins, I could see them hitting someone with a force spike but not forming it their hand and then hurling it at somebody.
Maybe it's a different Psionic class...
Psions use crystals. They just call their Orb implement a crystal. It says so in their debut article. This guy, the past Psion art, is just using two implements in 4e logic.
EDIT: Woops, wrong art we're talking about. But Psions do use Crystals as Implements.
Ah, but the 4e Psion can use implements, Orb and Staff, that are made out of crystal. The fact the PH1 Psion has a non-spherical 'orb implement' made out of crystal is a nod to the crystal-wielding 3e Psion.
The PH1 illustration was drawn while the exact features of the Psion class remained under debate and in flux. IIRC, the designers explained they explored giving the Psion a 'crystal' implement. But Psion enthusiasts had mixed feelings about the 'New Age crystals' flavor overkill. Ultimately, the designers decided to go with 'normal' implements for mechanical balance reasons per the bodyslots. But they explicitly encouraged players who love the crystal flavor to use the 'Orb' as a crystal, and this crystal 'orb' didnt need to be spherical, but could be any shape, especially a crystaline shape.
With this commentary in mind, this PH1 Psion seems to wield a 'crystal rod' and an 'energy javelin' ...
Regarding the 'crystal rod'. It could be a 'crystal implement' before the implement mechanics fell into debate. It could be a 'rod' if this implement was ever considered, perhaps it qualifies as a short 'staff' implement. Probably, it is simply a non-spherical crystal 'orb' implement. Even if it wasnt originally intended to be a non-sphere orb, it can retcon as such.
Regarding the 'energy javelin'. It could qualify as a crystal 'staff implement' with a sharp head-ornament. It could be Psionic power, a Force-construct taking the shape of a javelin. Probably, it is simply an 'energy javelin' - Psions are *proficient* with javelins which are a Simple Ranged weapon. Throwing it is appropriate for the low-hp class. Similarly, it could be a spear, a thowable Simple Melee weapon that the Psion is also proficient with.
We know the Psionic power source was actively under discussion during the earliest formative period of D&D 4e.
Both visually per the icon, and mechanically per the details, the PH1 picture is confidently a Psion.
He's might be a psion, but he's most likely a Human Warlock, the crystal a stylized rod, and the energy spear a stylized spell. Given that all the other characters pictured are PH1
Keep in mind that picture is just a page back from the part that mentions Psionics as a powersource.
I'm willing to believe it's a Psion, because seeing how the picture was done so early on, they could have just been basing it off 3.5e Psions, not knowing that Psions would be Ki'ified into something more simple and grounded.
Keep in mind that picture is just a page back from the part that mentions Psionics as a powersource.
I'm willing to believe it's a Psion, because seeing how the picture was done so early on, they could have just been basing it off 3.5e Psions, not knowing that Psions would be Ki'ified into something more simple and grounded.
Primal, Shadow, Ki, and Elemental were also mentioned alongside psionic, yet no examples of those other power sources seem to be present. As I said, the other four characters are all PH1 classes, so it seems likely that the fifth is as well. It could be a psion, but a stylized warlock seems far more likely.
Bards, Wizards, Warlocks, and Sorcerers all deal in Psychic damage, and Charms and Illusions occur amongst the first three of those at the very least. These aren't Psionic – they get their powers distinctly from a different power source, their study of cosmic forces and laws.
But in general, yeah, Psionic should bring back a lot of Psychic, Charm, and Illusion effects that are less prevalent in 4e classes.
Gandalf is a wizard and says so both in the movies and in the books to think otherwise is silly. He is not relgious at all so there goes your invoker idea, though he is a minor god. He is practiced and well trained so that also rules out sorcerer and he does not have a pact so that leaves out warlock so by process of elimination that leaves wizards.
The deveolpers have flat out said that the Invoker was based on Gandalf. Soooo ... yeah ... you're wrong.
Then the writers need to check the facts as tolkin himself says gandalf was based off of Merlin. Who is a wizard. He also uses light and mage hand more than once both wizards powers. There is more powers he uses that are wizards than ones he uses that are not. He would be multi classed into something that allows him to use swords.
And Merlin himself was a priest, not a wizard. You've lost. :D
Then the writers need to check the facts as tolkin himself says gandalf was based off of Merlin. Who is a wizard. He also uses light and mage hand more than once both wizards powers. There is more powers he uses that are wizards than ones he uses that are not. He would be multi classed into something that allows him to use swords.
And Merlin himself was a priest, not a wizard. You've lost. :D
A druid to be precise. In the original nature priest role of course. In earlier editions he definitely would be a druid. In 4e he could equally be a druid, or a cleric or invoker of Melora.
Plus you don't need to multiclass into anything to use a sword - just take a proficiency feat. So double lost.
-Merlin is a cambion and gains all of his powers from this(probably could be described as an infernal pact warlock with ritual caster)
-Merlin was supposed to be the anti-christ but was baptized, he received visions of the future from god in this version(invoker probably could work)
-Some versions of Merlin heavily play up his shapechanging ability(druid obviously)
-Wizard Merlin....yeah this one doesn't require too much description
So this whole disagreement is coming from people having different views of who the true merlin is and what his most important aspects are. Personally I like version 2, but to each their own.
Okay lets clear things up, I think everyone here is talking about different versions of Merlin which is why there is so much disagreement over what he is. So some of the versions of Merlin are:
-Merlin is a cambion and gains all of his powers from this(probably could be described as an infernal pact warlock with ritual caster)
-Merlin was supposed to be the anti-christ but was baptized, he received visions of the future from god in this version(invoker probably could work)
-Some versions of Merlin heavily play up his shapechanging ability(druid obviously)
-Wizard Merlin....yeah this one doesn't require too much description
So this whole disagreement is coming from people having different views of who the true merlin is and what his most important aspects are. Personally I like version 2, but to each their own.
It surprises me how many people fall into the "Merlin was Druid" myth that originated with Neo-Paganism, Neo-Druidism, and books like The Mists of Avalon. Merlin is a very complicated figure that has changed over time with the entirety of the Arthurian Cycles, however, in orgin he was a composite figure; a combination of multiple individuals from Welsh history and legend:
• Lailokan, also known as Myrddin Wyllt, who was a Bard for Gwenddoleu of Celyddon who went mad after seeing the kingdom destroyed and turned into a wild man.
• Ambrosius Aurelianus, also known as Emrys Myrddin, who was the warlord who fought Gwrtheyrn (Vortigern), though some say his son was Emrys Myrddin (Ambrosius II), to explain the whole "child-prophecy" part of the myth, where he undergoes a vision that Vortigern's tower will not stand because of the Red and White Dragons fighting underneath it (which were moved there in Welsh Mythology by the God Nudd/Lludd in the story "Lludd and Llefelys" from the Mabinogion).
• Taliesin, who was once Gwion Bach and stirred the Goddess Cerridwen's Cauldron of Inspiration, but tasted some of it for himself, and became the most enlightened mind alive. He was chased down, transforming into different animals, and she transformed into it's enemies. In the end, he turned himself into a grain of corn, and she turned herself into a Chicken, and ate all the corn in the pile, but then got pregnant with Taliesin. She couldn't bring herself to kill the beautiful baby, so she sent it in a basket down river, where it was found by the former Prince of sunken Cantref Gwaelod (the Welsh Atlantis-like kingdom). He eventually made his way to the Court of Arthur where he became one of Arthur's Three Court-Bards and Chief Advisors.
Now, in the Taliesin story, they say the other two are both known as Myrddin, and are in fact the two from above. But over time, the three figures were combined and transformed into a composite figure, as often happens to myths and legends with characters that share similar roles.
It's very likely that in origin, not a single one of the historical figures these legends were based on were connected to Arthur, and they made their way into the Arthurian mythos because of the "Arthur Affect," which basically attracted all the heroes and gods from Welsh and British history and myth to his court, regardless of their time period and placing. Owen, son of Urien Rheged, lived at least 100 years after the historical Arthur, and yet he's a chief member of Arthur's Companions even in the original Welsh stories. And the Welsh Gods are members of his court as well.
It was only later, where the sagacity of the Bard couldn't be accepted by Christianity, that he was demonised as born of a Nun and an Incubus. But to back-transform that into saying he was a Druid vastly undermines both the nature of what the Druids were, and the history and legends that Merlin arose from.
Druids were both a social caste in Celtic societies as well as a role within that social caste, and while Bards were a member of that intellectual caste, they did not perform the same augury that true Druids did. They were advisors to the Warrior caste (which eventually grew in prominence as Warchiefs such as Arthur or Owain Rheged took the lead).
I'd also like to mention that Gandalf was less based on Merlin, and more of a reflection of an aspect of Odin. Tolkien hated the idea of "This = This," and rejected people's interpretations that his War of the Ring was WWI or WWII in a different robe. Tolkien enjoyed the Arthurian Legends, more-so than most stories, as they captured an ancient time; however, he was far more fascinated with Norse Mythology and the Sagas, and even rewrote The Tale of Sigurd and Gudrún in Modern English prose; the Sagas were of the utmost distance from this modern era and entrenched in the ancient majesty of the wild north. His Odin in his rewrite of the famous Saga of the Volsungs transformed the dangerous and bloodthirsty Odin into a much more troubled but compassionate figure, more similar to his Vala Manwë. However, it has been noted in artwork of Gandalf, and in his descriptions of what Gandalf appeared as, that Gandalf seemed very much like the guise that Odin took in his wanderings in the world, especially when Sigurd was confronted by him – an old man in grey, with a big hat and a long, white beard and bushy eyebrows.
Gandalf shares a lot more of the military aspects with Odin as well, and when you get the more simpathetic, but stern and weary figure that Tolkien interpreted Odin as, Gandalf becomes a very natural parallel.
I wouldn't try to lock down ANYONE in Middle-Earth into a D&D class, but the Invoker was clearly based on Gandalf, the developers decided to draw on him more than anything else for the class, even if he was called a Wizard in the books. Tolkien's Wizards aren't D&D Wizards any more than they are Hogwarts Wizards.
However, 4e does make it easier to see characters from LotR in classes, since it seems that Aragorn is better as a Warlord, with a MC in Ranger and the Borderlands Marshal PPath, and Legolas is more of a true Ranger than he is in 4e D&D terms. This still doesn't change my stance though that conversion is never perfect, and Gandalf, while best described in 4e as a Deva Invoker, would have a very difficult time choosing class features and powers, since he could do pretty much EVERYTHING the Invoker does.
It surprises me how many people fall into the "Merlin was Druid" myth that originated with Neo-Paganism, Neo-Druidism, and books like The Mists of Avalon. ....
In my defense, I was only referring to him as a Druid because Druid is the only class that basically gets infinite free shapechanging, so in the myths which heavily emphasize his ability to shapechange he would likely be at least part Druid(in 4ed terms).
Mar, good info.
So, there we have it. Merlin was a Bard!
It surprises me how many people fall into the "Merlin was Druid" myth that originated with Neo-Paganism, Neo-Druidism, and books like The Mists of Avalon. ....
In my defense, I was only referring to him as a Druid because Druid is the only class that basically gets infinite free shapechanging, so in the myths which heavily emphasize his ability to shapechange he would likely be at least part Druid(in 4ed terms).
Sorry, didn't mean to sound like I was directly attack you; I meant to be responding to the entirety of the Merlin discussion, and you were jsut the last step in that.
But the problem is that Gwion Bach did shapechange, as did another great Bardic figure of Welsh Mythology, Gwydion – master storyteller, illusionist, trickster, bard, and shapechanger. And warrior.
The concepts seem to be more muddled and confused in mythology. Add to the fact that the Celtic Druids were weather augurs and future prognosticators, much more so than Shapechangers. Wild shape is a distinct D&D Druid thing, drawing on mythological and folkloric elements that appear from multiple cultures.
Id imagine using the Bard, while hybriding or multiclassing Druid to pick up the Wildshape?
Im unfamiliar with Celtic traditions, but run into similar difficulties with the Norse traditions. The modern 'pop spirituality' seems to have a lot to say about Seid, Berserkr, Dvergr, Vikingr, Runar, and so on. But the original source texts in the Eddas, Sagas, and Eventyr say something else entirely.
By the way, the 4e D&D 'Druid' matches well the 'Finn' shamans who lived to the North of the Norse. Both the weather magic and the wildshaping are appropriate.
I wouldn't worry about it. Our terms Wizard, Bard, Druid, Shaman; these are terms that have meaning outside of D&D, but have been reapplied for D&D just as much as Paladin has. When I first was making my favourite PC, Gwydion Marandahir, from whom I took my current internet handle from, he was a Druid. Now he's a Bard, because it better reflects his personality and abilities.
I know this sounds somewhat contradictory, since I am a firm believer in Names Have Power (and for that reason, I don't think Blackguard should be the Dark Knight class's name), but we also have to give them some wiggle room for Rule of Cool, rather than trying to create a historically or mythologically accurate class. This isn't the Real World we're building in D&D (at least in most games, it isn't), it's a fictional realm. My setting draws heavily on Welsh, Japanese, and Persian myths and religions and cultures, but I recombine them into a new thing, rather than trying to be exact. There was a time when I tried to be exact to the original material, but the truth is that these concepts evolve, and as my setting is supposed to be some distant future Earth (gives it a reason why figures such as Arthur Pendraig are worshipped as gods without feeling like cut and paste deities), it makes sense that the understanding of the myths and legends and the stories about these Great Powers would evolve and change to suit the times.
EDIT: Oh, I'd also make the EDest Storyteller one that Bards can take... it seems odd that the storyteller, which is an archetypal role of the Bard, is a EDest only for the Wizard. It plays into the Illusionist Wizard, which has a lot of overlap with the Cunning Bard, but the Prescient Bard and the Valorous Bard would just as much appreciate the themes as well.
Storytelling is the core aspect of the historical/mythic Bard, more so than music or other arte forms. Through stories, you can transform lives and understanding, and provide psychological healing.
And ironically enough Sha'ir can be a term for Bard, as it's an Arabic word for Storyteller, even though the Sha'ir clearly has a different meaning in D&D.
You mean Diamond Mind, right?
Yeah.
No. White Raven and Tiger Claw BOTH say they use ki in Tome of Battle. I suggest you read their descriptions over again more closely.
I have. Nothing supernatural about them. Page 42 does seem to indicate what you suggest, but the actual maneuvers contradict that description, as they make no reference to anything supernatural at all. Their descriptions are all completely mundane: "You jump and slash something with your weapon", "You grant your ally an opening to attack", and so on. Further, these are all things that completely mundane 4E martial classes do.
Tiger Claw may be inspiration for a number of 4e classes, some of which are Ranger builds, but Druid and Barbarian both get in on the action. Druids just turn into an actual animal while doing it, while Barbarians remain in a human form.
I honestly don't understand how could have actually read the Tiger Claw maneuvers and then actually read the Druid Beast Form power and thought that they had anything at all to do with one another. They don't.
Setting Sun and Diamond Mind both emphasis themes that Psionic emphasises.
But not the same way. They both emphasize thinking and mental awareness, but ToB and Martial classes can do that in a mundane way, and Psionic classes can do that in a supernatural way. "Thinking" does belong to a single power source.
The Power Source is completely related to where the source of the Power is, and both of them, it's Mind over Matter.
This is just ridiculous. There's a huge difference between "mind over matter" and "mind being made an important factor in complementing matter."
No. Because Martial Classes are all Strength or Dexterity in their primary. Wisdom and Charisma and Intelligence are very secondary aspect to them.
So what? That point is that Martial classes are still capable of using their mental ability score to complement their physical action in very real and significant mechanical ways. And besides, Setting Sun and Diamond Mind still rely on their physical ability scores much more than they do their mental ability scores, so that would be supportive of my argument, not yours.
No, but I'm suggesting that the themes of Aikido fit a lot more into Psionic than Martial. Aikido cares a lot less about physical strength and training, and more about inner discipline, and using the foe's strength against them. This is a distinctly Psionic theme in 4e.
Complete bull. There's no reason that such a general notion needs to be distinct to only a singular power source.
It's the fact that the Diamond Mind discipline has a bunch of manuevers that use Concentration skill checks in the place of saving throws, attack rolls and damage rolls that strains it's credibility as something that's "Non-Mystical".
No, that strains its credibility as something that a Fighter could do, because it isn't something that a Fighter could do, and that's okay, because that was the whole point. Just because a Fighter couldn't do it didn't mean that it was mystical. The Fighter just sucked.
And then there's the fact that some of it's manuevers that seem more like manuevers in Matrix or Wanted, which clearly defy physics.
No, that's just flat out false. Nothing in the Diamond Mind school defied physics.
The Manuever "Time Stands Still" is even better than an Arcane Spell such as 3.5e Haste, even if it only lasts 1 round.
I fail to see the problem. Time Stands Still is a 9th level maneuvers, and Haste is a 3rd level spell. Besides, that whole mindset of "mundane things can't be better than magic" was exactly the problem with previous editions of D&D.
Another reason to avoid the name Blackguard is, because it remains in use but not widely, people *often* mistake its actual pronunciation to be a racial slur. It sounds a lot like 'blackered', being made more Black or some such, while in the context of a slur. Blackguard has the same problem as the word 'niggardly' (meaning stingy), which my mom had to stop using in reallife! People easily mistake it for a racial slur.
Let's try to keep the Blackguard debate on the new classes thread shall we? we don't need two going at the same time.
Fun character concept, and good call on granting Bards access to the Storyteller Destiny.
< Our terms Wizard, Bard, Druid, Shaman; these are terms that have meaning outside of D&D, but have been reapplied for D&D just as much as Paladin has. >
Yeah, the D&D names are more like tabs to file certain concepts. Finn shamans are the 'Druid' class.
I still feel Gandalf translates best into D&D as a Paladin who has the Ritual Caster feat and a Mount. That pretty much covers everything Gandalf ever did, especially what he did most of the time: guard Charismatically, divinate, swordfight, and unleash holy light.
< I know this sounds somewhat contradictory, since I am a firm believer in Names Have Power, but we also have to give [WotC] wiggle room for Rule of Cool, rather than trying to create a historically or mythologically accurate class. >
Of course, D&D is about cool and fun (and meaningfulness to a modern audience).
Still, its helpful for a number of reasons to know the difference between fact and fiction: between historical myths and modern fantasy reinventions. LOL! I can see it piques you when people call Merlin a 'Druid' because this term evidences a sea of misunderstandings.
Some gamers enjoy reallife or mythologically accurate settings. Fair enough. But mythologically accurate material can contribute to any game.
Premodern myths are alien to modern sensibilities. While moderns can rarely use the myths on the myths own terms, the myths remain a fresh source to inspire new relevant concepts. Looking to antiquity can give games a fresh new twist. Scifi writers and gamers often draw inspiration from researching historical material.
Also, the ability to reconstruct ancient figures within the D&D system, is an excellent test for the customizability of the character creation mechanics.
So, while a D&D game should rarely limit itself to mythologically accurate material, it can benefit from consulting it. (
Hopefully, know the difference.)The Manuever "Time Stands Still" is even better than an Arcane Spell such as 3.5e Haste, even if it only lasts 1 round.
I fail to see the problem. Time Stands Still is a 9th level maneuvers, and Haste is a 3rd level spell. Besides, that whole mindset of "mundane things can't be better than magic" was exactly the problem with previous editions of D&D.
Haste is "You move at supernatural speeds", Time Stands Still is "You move at a speed that's faster than something that's already supernatural speed". That's like saying something that makes you more hidden than Invisibility, as something that's still mundane. Using Time Stands Still is liking doing something from a movie like Matrix.
Haste is "You move at supernatural speeds"
No, it isn't. Haste is "you move very quickly through supernatural means" as opposed to Time Stands Still, which is "you move quickly through non-supernatural means."
Let's compare a bit of flavor from the rest of them, shall we?
Moment of Perfect Mind- Your mental focus and martial study have rendered your will into an unbreakable iron wall. When someone targets you with a spell that seeks to erode your willpower, you steel yourself against the attack.
Stance of Clarity- Your mind and body meld, granting you an edge in combat. You move slightly faster than normal due to a combination of confidence, training, and clarity of mind. This slight edge adds up with each action.
Action Before Thought- Your supreme sense of the battlefield, unmatched martial training, and simple, intuitive sense of danger allow you to act faster than the speed of thought. When a spell or attack strikes you, you move a split second before you are even aware of the threat.
Emerald Razor- You stare at your enemy, studying his every move. You mentally probe his defenses in search of a weakness. A lesser warrior could spend long minutes pondering this problem, but you see an opening and seize upon it in an instant.
Insightful Strike- You study your opponent and spot a weak point in her armor. With a quick, decisive strike, you take advantage of this weakness with a devastating attack.
Hearing the Air- Your perception becomes so fine that you can hear the tiniest flutter of air moving past you. Invisible foes and other hidden threates become as plain as day in the area of your heightened senses.