56831228 wrote:
Though i could see a few feats saying (Dwarf with a +2 Str) or somesuch, i don't think they'll be many, and that would be a VERY restricted of a PP, so i don't think it would work.
Plus, we've already had subraces back for over a year now, in the form of race specific bloodline feats like "Dusk Elf" and "Grey Dwarf." Hell, longer even, with the Sun/Moon/Wood/Wild Elf and Gold/Shield Dwarf feats from the FRPG.
Personally, I dont equate the subraces with the ability boosts.
For example, it could be certain Eladrin communities who happen to be called 'Grey Elves' have a higher (modal) frequency of Int-Cha Enchanter Wizards, while 'High Elves' have a higher frequency of gishy (Fighter/Magic User) Int-Dex Swordmages. Even if so, there would still be many Grey Elves with exceptional Int-Dex and High Elves with exceptional Cha-Int. These ability boosts by themselves would not define the subrace. Still, different communities may idealize different abilities.
Similarly with regard to D&D 3e subraces, some want to equate Dex-Cha Halflings with 'tallfellows' and Dex-Con with 'deeps' (or even 'stouts'). Even if some subterranean communities had a significant frequency of ornery Con-boost toughness, there would still be a significant presence of Dex-Cha individuals among them.
Differently, suppose Drow will get a choice between Cha-Dex and Cha-Wis? It would be very tempting to equate Wis-Cha with female Drow (divine Cleric) and Cha-Dex with male Drow (arcane Sorcerer or Warlock). Nevertheless, its probably best to avoid equating these ability boosts with Drow gender division. Even if Drow females *tend* to have a higher frequency of Wisdom, there may still be a significant presence of males who start off with exceptional Wis. Since their society doesnt let these males become Clerics, its a good question what class high-Wis males tend to find interesting. Probably not sorcery or warlockry. Perhaps they tend to become Cha-Wis Prescient Bards?
I appreciate when mechanics become ways to expand on fluff.
I'm not actually thinking they could have thought about this at Wizards, but reading the thread about "Essential Eladrin" I foud this great diagram that Haldrik plotted out:
And regarding the Drow, doesn't the (speculated) Wis bonus scream female drow, given that nearly all traditional female drow are priests?
Priestesses to an insane Spider Goddess who loves to see them suffer. That doesn't exactly scream Wisdom bonus to me.
I think Intelligence would be more appropriate flavor-wise, given that their entire culture revolves on being clever enough to outwit those around them in order to gain power and then keep it. Cunning underhanded tactics seem more the domain of Intelligence than Wisdom.
Wisdom might be more appropriate in Eberron, however, where the Drow primarily live in the jungle, and thus need to be more nature savvy to survive.
Priestesses to an insane Spider Goddess who loves to see them suffer. That doesn't exactly scream Wisdom bonus to me.
I think Intelligence would be more appropriate flavor-wise, given that their entire culture revolves on being clever enough to outwit those around them in order to gain power and then keep it. Cunning underhanded tactics seem more the domain of Intelligence than Wisdom.
Wisdom might be more appropriate in Eberron, however, where the Drow primarily live in the jungle, and thus need to be more nature savvy to survive.
Wisdom is often misunderstood by non-English speakers (sei italiano?
) and native speakers alike, for being commonly associated with "Common Sense". But being the ability that mechanically connects you to the divine (or the spirit world), it is possessed by the most powerful Clerics and Invokers of ANY deity, even the darkest and most blood-thirsty ones, the ones that someone with good Common Sense would never pray to.
Wisdom is, at its core, a measure of how much "connection" can your soul/mind have with external energies.
It is more similar to the common meaning associated with the "intelligence" word than D&D's Intelligence itself, which is instead something much better described as pure Knowledge and learning ability.
What he said.
Also, when evil creatures are 'wise' it may mean keenly perceptive. Wise torturers have the Insight to know how to hurt.
Even when the evil who are spiritually wise can intuit the longterm consequences, their effectiveness at knowing how to get what they want is more than enough temptation to go for spectacular shortterm gains. Self-preservation is ethically confusing.
Intelligence = knowledge
Wisdom = ability to use knowledge
A PC can have a high intelligence, but a low wisdom. He knows a heck of alot, but lacks the ability to use that knowledge.
A PC with low intelligence, but a high wisdom doesn't know much, but he certainly can use to the fullest extent of what little he knows.
My personal simplistic definitions:
Intelligence = knowledge
Wisdom = ability to use knowledge
A PC can have a high intelligence, but a low wisdom. He knows a heck of alot, but lacks the ability to use that knowledge.
A PC with low intelligence, but a high wisdom doesn't know much, but he certainly can use to the fullest extent of what little he knows.
I like the simplicity of it, but I would put it differently, because both can give power, and saying having high Int and low Wis means that you don't have the ability to use that knowledge would mean many powerful Psions and Wizards are wimps, and they clearly aren't. I'd say that both can give you power but
Knowledge (Intelligence) gives you power FROM something (like in "from knowledge of magic", "from knowledge of the mind" or "from knowledge of tactics")
Perceptiveness (Wisdom) gives you power BY something (like in "by the will of gods/spirits" or "by strategically exploiting what you perceive")
Having power coming from Knowledge of something but without Perceptiveness means that you can personally acquire possibly any power of the universe but you probably unleash it not in the most meaningful way or not at your practical advantage.
In the case of tactics, you could know exactly how to win a battle but fail to recognize the elements that your tactics could benefit from, like terrain for example (lacking Insight/Nature/Perception skills)
Having power by something but without Knowledge means that you can have the powers of the universe by your side but you wouldn't know where those powers comes from or why, and you probably wouldn't know enough about the world to use that power in the most needed time or place.
In the case of strategy, you would intuitively use advantages in the most useful way, but without knowledge of tactics, you could use a strategy that your enemy wanted you to use, falling victim of an ambush for example, and you could have avoided that by confronting the situation with previous ones (you lack History/Arcana/Religion knowledge skills). Also, you wouldn't learn from your mistakes, you wouldn't remember what you need when you need it (pure Int checks)
Also, about Charisma, it is also often misunderstood as just being the power of your looks and silver tongue. Instead, I could see it like this:
Imposition of Self / Force of Personality (Charisma) gives you power OVER something (like "over your innate abilities", "over magic that you acquire from other sources" or "over the people")
Having power over something means that you have the inner strength to get it. Knowledge is something you acquire from outside, Perceptiveness lets you use something that already exists outside. Charisma is all inside yourself, that is why it's also called Force of Personality.
Having any other power but not enough Force of Personality makes you unable to let others acknowledge that power in the way YOU want (they will always interpret your actions as THEY want), and could also mean that you have an inner power that you don't know how to exploit.
Speaking of martial things again, you could do an elaborate bluff knowing it's a good tactic, you could also do it exploiting all the advantages the terrain and the situation offer, but lacking force of personality you could do all of this in an unconvincing way, and the enemy would understand everything and would not fall victim of your Knowledge and Perceptiveness.
Having Force of Personality but lacking in Knowledge and/or Perceptiveness has the same effects it has on Knowledge or Perceptiveness.
I like lordA's take on stats and the way they present in your character. Subraces were kinda cool but they never made a big spash in our group, except Drow ( I hate hate hate DROW!). We also implemented regional adjustments and pregame training. Like all races that lived in the desert (elf, human, ect) had certain bonuses like needing less food and drink and havng basic survival skills. Another was joining certain armies and being trained would give you more weapon skills and even increase your hit die if it were below a d8 though that came with obligations. I think there are a lot of fun ways to personalize characters and races.
To tell you the truth, I perceive low int, mid to high wis to be idiot savants (BTW, I don't like that term). They have the mental capacity of a child, but when focused on one subject, they surpass just about everybody else. A high percentage of these people are artistically inclined.
The other end of the scale with the high int, low wis are the absent minded professors. They are smart as all getout, but they cannot tie their own shoelaces (their wives have to do it for them). In fact I know somebody that had one as their professor and he admitted that the professor told him that his wife ties his shoelaces.
Oh, well. That's enough off-topic chatter.
My personal simplistic definitions:
Intelligence = knowledge
Wisdom = ability to use knowledge
A PC can have a high intelligence, but a low wisdom. He knows a heck of alot, but lacks the ability to use that knowledge.
A PC with low intelligence, but a high wisdom doesn't know much, but he certainly can use to the fullest extent of what little he knows.
I like the simplicity of it, but I would put it differently, because both can give power, and saying having high Int and low Wis means that you don't have the ability to use that knowledge would mean many powerful Psions and Wizards are wimps, and they clearly aren't. I'd say that both can give you power but
Knowledge (Intelligence) gives you power FROM something (like in "from knowledge of magic", "from knowledge of the mind" or "from knowledge of tactics")
Perceptiveness (Wisdom) gives you power BY something (like in "by the will of gods/spirits" or "by strategically exploiting what you perceive")
Having power coming from Knowledge of something but without Perceptiveness means that you can personally acquire possibly any power of the universe but you probably unleash it not in the most meaningful way or not at your practical advantage.
In the case of tactics, you could know exactly how to win a battle but fail to recognize the elements that your tactics could benefit from, like terrain for example (lacking Insight/Nature/Perception skills)
Having power by something but without Knowledge means that you can have the powers of the universe by your side but you wouldn't know where those powers comes from or why, and you probably wouldn't know enough about the world to use that power in the most needed time or place.
I actually agree with your definitions, but by those definitions, Wisdom is THE LAST stat the Drow should get a bonus to. Drow rarely use their knowledge well. Most use it to gain power and hold on to it for as long as they can, rather than to do things that would actually benefit them in the long run.
Don't mean to start an argument here. I just think Drow seem to favor Intelligence over Wisdom, since they ARE smart, but generally make terrible decisions. They're mostly sociopaths, also suffering from constant paranoia. Justified, perhaps, but still not a trait that syncs up well with choosing the most appropriate way to use one's knowledge and/or power. But that's just my opinion.
Also, I'm American, not Italian. I took the name Scarmiglione from Final Fantasy 4, which I later found out took the name from Dante's Inferno. You are also not the first person to make that assumption.
I actually agree with your definitions, but by those definitions, Wisdom is THE LAST stat the Drow should get a bonus to. Drow rarely use their knowledge well. Most use it to gain power and hold on to it for as long as they can, rather than to do things that would actually benefit them in the long run.
Don't mean to start an argument here. I just think Drow seem to favor Intelligence over Wisdom, since they ARE smart, but generally make terrible decisions. They're mostly sociopaths, also suffering from constant paranoia. Justified, perhaps, but still not a trait that syncs up well with choosing the most appropriate way to use one's knowledge and/or power. But that's just my opinion.
Also, I'm American, not Italian. I took the name Scarmiglione from Final Fantasy 4, which I later found out took the name from Dante's Inferno. You are also not the first person to make that assumption.
I acknowledge that you're right from a literary point of view. Drow as depicted in the Forgotten Realms novels indeed display more Int than Wis, although a famous exception exists IMO (Drizzt, who also has quite some Int anyway).
However, it is a bit strange to picture what is (and not only in the Forgotten Realms) a theocratic society, without them being particularly adept at divine magic, something that requires Wis.
One could argue that if Lolth's Clerics and Invokers would be so powerful, they would take over the world quickly, and that maybe a lack of sheer individual connection with their deity is what makes them struggle a bit in their evil plans.
BUT: Seeing how Eladrins are going to be Int + Dex/Cha, and Elves Dex + Wis/Int, I still see Dex + Cha/Wis (or Cha + Dex/Wis) as a more probable Drow racial stat, mechanics-wise.
The only other option (the one you would suggest) is Cha + Dex/Int, making them really similar to the Eladrin. Although Eladrin would still be excluded from the Dex+Cha combo typical of Drow, and Drow excluded from being Dex+Int. So a bit of difference would remain.
Let's say I think I consider your opinion and the Cha + Dex/Int option the "rightest"
, but I'd still prefer to see Wis.
@LordA: Yes, my defs are simplistic, mostly because I did not want to hurt my brain by thinking too much about it. You put a lot more thought into it with which I agree.
To tell you the truth, I perceive low int, mid to high wis to be idiot savants (BTW, I don't like that term). They have the mental capacity of a child, but when focused on one subject, they surpass just about everybody else. A high percentage of these people are artistically inclined.
The other end of the scale with the high int, low wis are the absent minded professors. They are smart as all getout, but they cannot tie their own shoelaces (their wives have to do it for them). In fact I know somebody that had one as their professor and he admitted that the professor told him that his wife ties his shoelaces.
Oh, well. That's enough off-topic chatter.
I agree with your examples, and I particularly appreciated your connection between Wis and artistic inclination, which was always associated to Cha. It's true that many arts require Cha, but only for the "being recognized" part. What truly makes for good art is the sensitivity of the artist, which is directly linked to Wis, not to mention that as you say, a high Wis may actually make the person art-incluned.
BTW, I have a relative that is exactly that type of absent-minded professor, including the wife part, that in his case helped him finding just about anything from socks to pants, because he really couldn't find things or understand where tehy could have been (Insight and Perception :D). And this funny man managed to get a PhD in Physics back in the 70s, and is now a renown researcher and university professor, with countless publications bearing his name.
Intelligence = knowledge
Wisdom = ability to use knowledge
Intelligence will get you out of the trouble Wisdom would have kept you from in the first place.
Wisdom is knowing that you don't put tomatoes in a fruit salad.
Intelligence is knowing that tomatoes are a fruit.
Wisdom is knowing that you don't put tomatoes in a fruit salad.
I dunno 'bout that. I just had the most stellar Fruit salad, and it had tomatoes in it. It was entirely derived of fruits too, with the exception of Pine Nuts, which aren't actually nuts because all nuts are fruits and coniferous plants don't bear fruits – they're actually the seeds of the Pine.
That said, it had 38 other fruits. Including tomatoes, capers, soybean seeds, almonds, and corn, just to name some of the fruits that you might not usually put in such a salad.
Intelligence is knowing that a Pine Nut is not a Nut, nor a Fruit at all.
Wisdom is knowing that it still tastes good in a salad comprised mostly of good fruits, provided the salad's done well. Ditto for the tomatoes.
Let's say I think I consider your opinion and the Cha + Dex/Int option the "rightest"
, but I'd still prefer to see Wis.
I know how you feel. Personally, I'm hoping for Tieflings to get either Con or Strength, so they can make better Infernal Warlocks or Warlords, but I'm not sure at all which stat they'll get a boost, too. I really don't want it to be Dex, though.
...with Dex they would become Eladrin-clones.
What? No, they wouldn't. Eladrin are INT // DEX / CHA. A Tiefling with DEX would be CHA // DEX / INT. While INT / CHA becomes a possibility for both, DEX / INT is a possibility for Eladrin but not Tiefling and DEX / CHA is a possibility for Tiefling but not Eladrin. Eldarin and Tiefling wouldn't be any more clones than Minotaur and Mul are.
I wouldn't be very happy with Tieflings getting CON. I'd prefer something more fitting with their actual fluff than something desired only for reasons of mechanical optimization... Though, I do think that it'd be hilarious if, instead of the desired INT // CON / CHA, they ended up as CHA // CON / INT. Even if they do end up with CON, I think that would be more likely anyways, and I could easily accept it if only for reasons related to Schadenfreude.
- They're geared more towards rgoues than Battleminds
- Devils are charming
- No complaints about the variable Def stat mod
- They were +Int/Dex in 2e (-Str/Wis) and +Int/Dex in 3e
- I have a sadistic desire to see people keep whining for an Int/Con race
Failing that ... I could see Cha + Con/Int instead. Just because.
Intelligence is knowing that tomatoes are a fruit.
Wisdom is knowing that you don't put tomatoes in a fruit salad.
And charisma is persuading your dinner guests to try your strange and unusual fruit salad with tomato anyway.
I fully support tieflings getting the exact same ability score bonuses as changelings, since they are two variations of the same race in my homebrew setting anyway (similar to the way longtooth and razorclaw are two variations of the shifter race).
I could see them getting a Con bonus, though, as they are described as being tough, resourceful and self-reliant. I agree with Crimson and Celtic that Cha makes more sense as the 'fixed' bonus than anything else, though, regardless of whether the third ability is Con or Dex.