In fact lets go one stop further, and christen the Forgotten Realms as the official campaign setting for D&D, whatever edition you're playing. Then support it with some box sets - you know like way back in the 2nd edition.
Please.
I just read Bill's latest Ampersand column and to my amazement he's talking about rolling out a new campaign setting next year. Come on guys, just about everybody love the Forgotten Realms, how about committing to supporting it rather than something new.
In fact lets go one stop further, and christen the Forgotten Realms as the official campaign setting for D&D, whatever edition you're playing. Then support it with some box sets - you know like way back in the 2nd edition.
Please.
Except not everyone likes Forgotten Realms.
Wheres Dragonlance, Darksun, Oriental Adventures, Spelljammer, Ghostworld or Ravenloft?
DnD is about options and imagination. They have already announced that there would be at least one article a month for each of the campaign settings that they are supporting. On top of that, the current RPGA setting is Living Forgotten Realms. Forgotten realms is supported just fine thanks. Please bring back the others.
I mean really whats missing from FR?
Its been done to death, I say give it a rest for an edition or two then bring it back when it it would be new and shiny again. Right now in the eyes of most of the folks I game with, it needs a good long nap.
love,
malkav
Except not everyone likes Forgotten Realms.
Wheres Dragonlance, Darksun, Oriental Adventures, Spelljammer, Ghostworld or Ravenloft?
DnD is about options and imagination. They have already announced that there would be at least one article a month for each of the campaign settings that they are supporting. On top of that, the current RPGA setting is Living Forgotten Realms. Forgotten realms is supported just fine thanks. Please bring back the others.
Agreed. If I wanted Fantasy Generic, I'll play Forgotten Realms. I want to see some other fantasy as well.
Come on guys, just about everybody love the Forgotten Realms, how about committing to supporting it rather than something new.
I don't. I absolutely loathe it. Always have, most likely always will.
I'm looking forward to a 2010 setting, and to which bits of it I can steal for my own games and to which bits I can cheerfully despise.
Variety is a good thing and I think keeping the same campaign setting for too long (and FR has reigned supreme for some time now) is never a good thing. Forgotten realms has incredible depth and character to it, but there are other realms to explore and develop. I would like to see Darksun, a planar setting of some type, or something completely get a chance.
However, Wizards has already stated their release model. Every year will get
-1 DM Setting book for X
-1 PC Setting book for X
-1 X Setting Adventure
X being whatever dusty old setting they decide to resurrect.
As a player who started with 3E and thus only ever saw FR, Eberron, and homebrews, I'm really looking forward to seeing some of these settings I've only heard anecdotes about.
Blowing up the world helped reduce the Gary Stu infestation (and yet Eliminster and Drizzit live :banghead
, but even this only made it nominaly better. I am glad they are letting it drop like the generic and bloated
it is (give or take a few throw away dragon articles).It's already bad enought that it is the only 4E living game right now. I haved decided that any living fr charecters I make will all claim to have traveled there from a distant world.
Anything (dark sun, greyhawk, spell jammer, dragonlance, birthright, etc.) would be marked improvement over that setting.
I just read Bill's latest Ampersand column and to my amazement he's talking about rolling out a new campaign setting next year. Come on guys, just about everybody love the Forgotten Realms, how about committing to supporting it rather than something new.
In fact lets go one stop further, and christen the Forgotten Realms as the official campaign setting for D&D, whatever edition you're playing. Then support it with some box sets - you know like way back in the 2nd edition.
Please.
Personally I feel the should have shot FR in the face and left it for dead.
I don't like Tolkeinian wanna be fantasy. That lives in utter denial about the fact that magic being that prevalent -would affect the world on a major level-. Tolkein was at least half way smart with his world in that Magic pretty much doesn't exist. FR it's like everyone and their brother knows magic but does nothing with it anyway.
I do like new FR a great deal more (is that really saying much?) Now I'd actually play in the world since I don't feel it has the Our Story Is Holier Than Thou going in it anymore. (Thanks to the time jump and killing off of various inane deities)
But I Love Eberron which coincidentally is the world coming out next.
I'd rather they continue to explore new worlds and different kinds of fantasy rather than lamely copping out going "There is only One True Fantasy and That is High Fantasy!". Even if some of their choices I won't like, it can only help.
That said, I prefer it when D&D doesn't have an official campaign setting. Like some of the others here, I like variety and I am willing to fully embrace the one setting book a year model. I enjoy the fact that D&D is more of a "tool-box game", games whose rules are tied to one setting are grea. However, I've always loved D&Ds ability to just get a game going with setting and toss together a (sometimes generic) fantasy kitchen sink setting as you go along.
As a DM who prefers to homebrew worlds a single campaign guide which defines the worlds in broad stroke is more useful. Take Darksun (the setting many speculate will be printed in 2010), for example, even if I don't decide to run a game in Athas itself I could use many of the broadly outlined monsters, locations, and organizes in a desert region of my homebrew world. However, a very detailed fluff book on one region or faction - while fun to read, really doesn't do much good unless I am including that element more or less as written.
Thus, I say bring on a rain of campaign settings - even if they are only broad outlines. They are easier to utilize in my own settings, require the DM to digest less information before running the game, and give him/her more room to fill in the details!
(IMNSHO)
just about everybody love the Forgotten Realms
I would suggest that of all the settings WotC has ever created, Forgotten Realms is the only one that explicitly has a large "no way in hell" population. Greyhawk, being the oldest, is probably in second, and Eberron, being so different, is likely in third. Most of the other settings have a loyal fanbase and the rest are more like "meh, not for me" attitude.
But the Realms are loved or hated. Very little in between.
My position? The forgotten realms should have stayed so.
As your premise is inaccurate, I contend that the conclusion is equally flawed.
Official worlds are a thing of the past now, and I like that. Even if "Points of Light" was fleshed out into a full setting, it would just be one of the options.
My only disappointment is that there's not more Dragon and Dungeon material devoted to other campaign settings. At the very least, they could public campaign setting material, and provide adaptation notes for the Points of Light setting (since this transition can be done with far greater ease than the opposite, IMHO).
1) No idea where you do your market research but your wrong. I have never liked the forget me realm. The NPC's are a joke, and the gods are not much better.
2) Why don't we not christen the FR as a the official setting, because Id rather play anywhere else.
3) boxed sets were cool if they were useable in any setting. Otherwise they could rot as well.
In closing FR sucks, back in the day Dragonlance was cool, but even it sucks after the Summer Flame book. Ill stick with homebrew settings.
I very much agree.
However I would like to add that dragonlance sucked from dragons of summer flame until war of souls. The current era/ 3.5 dragonlance is quite good.
I suppose what you are looking for is rules to help explain the bloat that FR has. Due to FR being "supported" for so long, it has somewhere in the order of 10 pantheons, and at least 5 distinct geographical regions, all of which with their own classes and feats. With so much tacked on due to "support" FR is now far larger than it once was, and has "flavor of the month" regions all over it, so supplements could be used in the "flagship FR".
So please don't support a setting past the initial couple of books, it can only end in bloat, gameflation and needless additions.
The idea is not to detail the world ad infinitum, such as they did with 3.5. This largely deprives the world of it's secrets, it's mystery, and deprives players and DMs of making world their own. This is why the spellplague was introduced, and why the new setting books offer more inspiration than lore upon lore.
I'm gonna go with Spelljammer or Dark Sun, as both have been mentioned in 4th ed books already, notably, the Manual of the Planes.
GO GO GADGET ELVEN MAN-O-WAR!
GO GO GADGET THRI-KREEN GLADIATORS!!
(I'll get round to making a pic of that!)
:D
You look at the Realms & somehow feel obligated to use/reference everything that 2 companies/3-4 editions/hundereds of novels/and dozens of authors have said on the subject over 25 years.
Well, everything that is except for those areas on the maps labled "Unknown Lands".....
You don't even try to make the Realms your own.
And then you all B*** & Moan about things that are easily within your groups control - use/existance of various NPCs, active use of the Realms deities, frequent world shaking events, the amount of magic being used/ignored, etc etc etc. You know what? If these things bother you, maybe your group - players & DM together, should discuss them. I know, a shockingly radical aproach.
Here's my groups general view of the novels;
The stories & characters presented in the novels are simply fictional accounts of other peoples games.
Alternate realities.
Some better written/more interesting than others.
Thus we don't care what some author has Drizzt, Elminister, or whoever do. That author isn't running the game being played around my kitchen table every Fri evening.....
The idea is not to detail the world ad infinitum, such as they did with 3.5. This largely deprives the world of it's secrets, it's mystery, and deprives players and DMs of making world their own.
No it doesn't.
Come on guys, just about everybody love the Forgotten Realms...
Are you kidding me? Just about everybody I know (both on the internet and IRL) hates FR.
We could revise its military tactics, its approach to economy, its religion, its general history as a whole to account for magic and monsters actually having an impact on society....or we could go with a world that isn't so bland, copy-pasted, and generic. I can copy Tolkien on my own, I don't need a book to tell me that dwarves like mountains, elves like forests, wizards sit in towers, and kings like castles.
If I get a setting book, I want it to be something that inspires.
Like Eberron, which actually sits down and says "Okay, magic. How does that impact day-to-day life?"
Or Dark Sun. Which says "Okay, magic. Let's make it very, very dangerous and disruptive. Also, cannibalistic halflings."
Or Spelljammer, which will probably be merged with Astral Plane stuff, but is still notable for saying "Okay, dragons. IN SPAAAAACCCCCEEEEEE!!!!" :D
Or maybe, just maybe, we could get something new, something amazing and inspirational, that changes the way we look at sword and sorcery gaming. The kind of setting which, rather than just copying and pasting the same generic staples, actually transforms things we take for granted, creating a world which comes alive and makes us discover everything about swords and staves, dwarves and elves, magic and might all over again.
Stick me on the list of people who is very happy with WotC's plan to release a new setting each year, and who NEVER want to see just one or two settings supported, while all the other settings are ignored, ever again.
I think most of you who claim to hate the Forgotten Realms merely suffer from a problem of perspective.
No. Most of the people who hate the Forgotten Realms don't suffer a problem of perspective. They just really hate generic fantasy. Even 4e Forgotten Realms, which has stepped a little outside this mold, is still essentially generic fantasy. A lot of people don't like this. They like stuff that is a little more... planescape, dark sun, ravenloft, you know, themed.
No it doesn't.
Yes it does.
I look forward to the release of Eberron 4e as well.
I am much more looking forward to settings like Eberron (never got a chance to play in 3.5 but quite enjoy the setting), Dark Sun and Planescape (w00t for Sigil in DMG2).
Or I wouldn't mind a year where they have a book devoted to "Drag and Drop" options for homebrew crafting. The books would be just crammed full of various types of fantasy styles and have mechanics, NPCs, plot hooks, etc. for them.
As such you can "Drag and Drop" what you want to help in homebrewing. You want revolver wielding knights drag and drop the firearms mechanics in, you want Steampunk setting drag and drop the elements relevant to Steampunk, etc.
I doubt we will see this, since well it be a huge amount of work to be done. It be also impossible to cram everything in, but one can dream :P
Or maby like in my case hate it from bad GM experiances 15-20 years ago. The reason doesn't matter. Many still hate the setting.
You too, which uber NPC did you have to do errands for?
I would love to see dragonlance 4E but I don't know if I will ever see it. Wizards might just decided they did thier "high fantasy setting" so they are not going to do another. This makes me sad, as DL is a 1000 times more thematic and distinct then FR. Anyway I would just be happy with a new trilogy of books (Wiess and Hickman if possible, somebody else competent if not), that add a few new threats to the world (but not another Cataclysm, please). DL in its current age does not need a reboot, just a few more plot twists that add to, but don't replace the current dynamics of the world.
You look at the Realms & somehow feel obligated to use/reference everything that 2 companies/3-4 editions/hundereds of novels/and dozens of authors have said on the subject over 25 years.
For me, you are close, but not quite accurate.
Some of us that hate the realms simply feel obligated to let our *players* know what parts of the everything that 2 companies/3-4 editions/hundreds of novels/and dozens of authors have said on the subject over 25 years is NOT being used in our game. And that takes more effort than it is worth.
A player playing in a campaign should be able to reasonably assume the published material for that campaign is acceptable, usable, and true. So those of us that don't want to have all of the material used in our games have a responsibility to let the players know. With as much bloat as the Realms has accumulated, it is rather difficult to manage the player knowledge without springing it as a gotcha retcon one event at a time. That is fair to neither the player adventuring in the revised world nor to the revised world in which they are playing.
FR has, over the years, created too many canon rules for me to have any desire to houserule out of existence.
Are you kidding me? Just about everybody I know (both on the internet and IRL) hates FR.
Indeed.
SAGE! SAGE! :fight!:
A new setting huh? Wizards. Steampunk. Now!
Well, that's a book I'd pass on. Then again, I'm not aware of any campaign settings after Eberron I'm particularly keen on getting books for ...
A new setting huh? Wizards. Steampunk. Now!
If they make a Steampunk setting, please, please lets have some good level of technology Steampunk, not just medieval fantasy with Steampunk elements. Come on revolvers, iron clads, and all other types of technology of Victorian period (with all the Steampunk elements as one would expect).
Spelljammer and Ravenloft are much better off as appendages to the core world. Ravenloft in particular being a wonderful setting to spend some time in, but when trying to make a full setting out of it it gets spread a bit thin, then the filler in the jam starts tasting like the applesauce it is. Spelljammer is another one that was a great core idea that got a bit... silly... once fleshed out. I do realize that the silliness is a selling point to longtime fans, but a setting who's core conceit is "pastiche" doesn't really need a collected volume, now, does it ;) .
Dragonlance needs a rest, but it's my next-best-bet after Dark Sun.
Nowadays it frustrates me still - while the balance issues were corrected, even with the Spellplague trying to reset the setting there's still a mountain of lore to deal with. It feels like the sort of setting that you have to have been playing and reading since 2nd Edition to even hope to understand enough to run - at some point it's just not worth it, and I'd rather just make up my own generic fantasy setting than attempt to process the bloat of the Realms.
My hope is that the next setting is Eberron (which I enjoy, and hope they do interesting things with), and that after that they start producing the settings which I've only ever heard about but never had the chance to play in - Dark Sun, Dragonlance, and so on. Spelljammer, maybe, though it might be better served as being part of the core setting like Manual of the Planes has hinted it is.
Above all else, though, what needs to happen is the plan that Wizards has laid out now - two books, a Dragon article and supplementary articles. Not so much information that the setting becomes an unapproachable mess by the end of the edition, but enough that it's a fleshed-out world that still has plenty of room for the DM to make it his own.
My hope is that the next setting is Eberron (which I enjoy, and hope they do interesting things with).
Well your hope has been answered. Since it is the next setting, and the campaign book comes out in June.
Given my druthers, I'd like to see Dark Sun up next (is anyone else planning on jacking the whole Spellscarred thing for fallout from the Defilers killing the world?), followed by Oriental Adventures. If WotC could actually get the necessary licensing to bring back L5R, that'd be the ideal. I loves me dem clans. Planescape after that, and that's just in the order of preexisting settings I'd like to see revived; I'd be perfectly happy if Wizards surprised me with something new (I've always been curious about the setting Rich Burlew submitted to the contest which Eberron won). Somewhere down the line I'd love to see a 4e Modern book, and Spelljammer could be interesting too.
All of these would be so, so, so much better than dragging out the (Better Left) Forgotten Realms for even one more book, much less year after uninspired year.
Which is everything I look for in setting material to pillage for my own use. :D
As long as they give me more quality ideas and crunch, I really don't care what campaign setting they release when.
And they go to such lengths to develop cool new stuff for it.
Too bad the diehard fans nerdrage whenever 'they' add something new to the setting.
Too bad the diehard fans nerdrage whenever 'they' add something new to the setting.
Fortunately, I don't care about hardcore fans! I like new stuff. That's why I buy new books.
I suspect the need for one for the Ebberon Setting as well.
"Please in all that is holy let it be Planescape!"
"On bended knee praying to all who will listen, PLEASE let it be planescape!"
:D
Or Dark Sun. Which says "Okay, magic. Let's make it very, very dangerous and disruptive. Also, cannibalistic halflings."
Based on what few things I know about Dark Sun and this one quote, I say we make that the default setting.
A new setting huh? Wizards. Steampunk. Now!
If they make a Steampunk setting, please, please lets have some good level of technology Steampunk, not just medieval fantasy with Steampunk elements. Come on revolvers, iron clads, and all other types of technology of Victorian period (with all the Steampunk elements as one would expect).
Why, Hello There. Still working, obviously.
Why, Hello There. Still working, obviously.
Hehe, oh I know Vaal. I got your page on my favourites. Though you have to admit it would still be neat to see what WoTC would do with Steampunk as well.
Plus it means more resources to drag and drop.
I want a setting that does not require me to rule out certain options, because they are simply not available for the sake of the theme. I played in a few Dark Sun games and they constantly had me runnin into walls because I had to drop all preconceived notions in order to understand the setting.
That is why I like settings to be overly detailed. Not that I am using all elements as a DM, but it does allow me some lore support when I do need it. Adapt as you see fit.
But FR, while answering all my needs, has become too familiar after playing it for 6 years non-stop.
A setting that we will never see but one that I would really like is a high sci-fi setting. Think the year 2500 and beyond, think a game like Mass Effect. Not steampunk, but real sci-fi. Star Wars and related games and settings don't cut it for me, they don't carry the typical D&D vibe.
Oh well, a man can dream.
If they make a Steampunk setting, please, please lets have some good level of technology Steampunk, not just medieval fantasy with Steampunk elements. Come on revolvers, iron clads, and all other types of technology of Victorian period (with all the Steampunk elements as one would expect).
As long as it's sans "Victorian Morals" we're good.
I would suggest that of all the settings WotC has ever created, Forgotten Realms is the only one that explicitly has a large "no way in hell" population.
You forgot Planescape. I'd put it in second place overall, before Greyhawk.
Brought to you by CEFWAFMIOS, the Coalition of Eberron Fans Who Also Find Merit in Other Settings.
Weekends are too short and available gamers too uncommon for me to be partisan about campaign settings. I'm an Eberron fan through and through, but I also devoured the 4th edition FR books, and I can't wait to see what they go for next. (Please be Darksun!)
Brought to you by CEFWAFMIOS, the Coalition of Eberron Fans Who Also Find Merit in Other Settings.
Ive only ever had 2 dms who used published settings. Our dm is using Forgotten realms player guide, but we are in his own world. It gets wierd because the core dieties and the realms dieties are in the game.
As for me Id like to see a new setting for 2010 with Darksun in 2011. I want something brand spanking new for the new eddition. Not just something old dusted off the shelf. But thats just me.
As long as it's sans "Victorian Morals" we're good.
Oh yes, definitely. Purely the cool parts of Victorian stuff (with a healthy dose of Edwardian as well (prefer actually the less cluttered feel of Edwardian stuff)). Though... While not necessarily, "morals" it is fun having weird pseudo-science from Victorian period that does fringe on bad morals/science. Such as the whole brain-mapping tools, ridiculous and silly yes but fun things for a setting to play with.
Oh yes, definitely. Purely the cool parts of Victorian stuff (with a healthy dose of Edwardian as well (prefer actually the less cluttered feel of Edwardian stuff)). Though... While not necessarily, "morals" it is fun having weird pseudo-science from Victorian period that does fringe on bad morals/science. Such as the whole brain-mapping tools, ridiculous and silly yes but fun things for a setting to play with.
I want steam punk like this http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php
It doesn't focus on world which creates bloat while pandering to the lowest common denominator to make everyone happy (and thereby turning off an equally large number), ala 3e FR.
It doesn't develop a dozen settings and try to support them all simultaneously, causing them to spread their resources too thinly, like TSR did.
One setting a year allows them to stretch their creative muscles with new settings (AFTER they release Dark Sun please ;)), and since it is only two books and an adventure, and not an entire multi-year line of books, if their experiment flops no big deal. I'm hoping this lets them push setting boundaries even more so than EB.
Verys
PS Dark Sun for 2010!
I think WotC's model of setting releases for 4e strikes a good balance.
It doesn't focus on world which creates bloat while pandering to the lowest common denominator to make everyone happy (and thereby turning off an equally large number), ala 3e FR.
It doesn't develop a dozen settings and try to support them all simultaneously, causing them to spread their resources too thinly, like TSR did.
One setting a year allows them to stretch their creative muscles with new settings (AFTER they release Dark Sun please ;)), and since it is only two books and an adventure, and not an entire multi-year line of books, if their experiment flops no big deal. I'm hoping this lets them push setting boundaries even more so than EB.
Verys
PS Dark Sun for 2010!
We can only hope. I really would like to see settings that are different. Though for the love of god nothing with kender or tinker gnomes pleae.
A setting that we will never see but one that I would really like is a high sci-fi setting. Think the year 2500 and beyond, think a game like Mass Effect. Not steampunk, but real sci-fi. Star Wars and related games and settings don't cut it for me, they don't carry the typical D&D vibe.
Not that I mean to be off topic here, but how is Mass Effect any different from Star Wars? I mean, you got your Evil Empire, your Stormtroopers (Okay, zombies), your Jedi (Psychics), and you're running around trying to defeat the bad guy. I mean, it's just like Star Wars Universe, just with different trappings.
I mean, it's okay to like the stuff in Mass Effect better. I'm cool with that. However, it's not even remotely radically different from Star Wars.
Just off the top of my head here are the diffrences:
Humans are an up and comming species but are largely shut out of the poltical system in the galaxy.
Biotech is just that cybernetic bosting pyschic capablities and not tied to a morality system (very diffrent than the force).
Also, the whole feel of the universe is moral abiguity as opposed to the whole dark side light side thing.
Star Wars is an over the top space adventure setting (more like D&D in space with the force taking the place of magic), Mass effect is much more gritty science fiction setting.
Also Mass effect has much better acting, writting, music, and alien speices.
I would love to see 4E modern mass effect game or something similair.
Oh yes, definitely. Purely the cool parts of Victorian stuff (with a healthy dose of Edwardian as well (prefer actually the less cluttered feel of Edwardian stuff)). Though... While not necessarily, "morals" it is fun having weird pseudo-science from Victorian period that does fringe on bad morals/science. Such as the whole brain-mapping tools, ridiculous and silly yes but fun things for a setting to play with.
Oh the scifi stuff is good from that period. Especially what you just mentioned.
It's the only reason why I can justify the Victorian Era's existence is because of Steam Punk.
Oh the scifi stuff is good from that period. Especially what you just mentioned.
It's the only reason why I can justify the Victorian Era's existence is because of Steam Punk.
And some of the upper class decadence was interesting, I thought.
Hehe, oh I know Vaal. I got your page on my favourites.
Thanks!
Though you have to admit it would still be neat to see what WoTC would do with Steampunk as well.
Plus it means more resources to drag and drop.
True, but WotC is understandably scared of doing a lot of fun stuff. It'd be lovely to see them do it, but I think we'd see the return of Spelljammer before we see much Gaslamp Fantasy busting out from them. The Dragon article where they explain why they made sure the gnome continued to suck pretty much cements the idea that we won't see a lot of tech in WotC products.
And yet, AV has the Apparatus of Kwalsh, a Zeppelin From Another World and an Ornithopter and a recent Dungeon featured the freaking Nautilus.
No offense intended, but have you played mass effect?
Just off the top of my head here are the diffrences:
Humans are an up and comming species but are largely shut out of the poltical system in the galaxy.
Biotech is just that cybernetic bosting pyschic capablities and not tied to a morality system (very diffrent than the force).
Also, the whole feel of the universe is moral abiguity as opposed to the whole dark side light side thing.
Star Wars is an over the top space adventure setting (more like D&D in space with the force taking the place of magic), Mass effect is much more gritty science fiction setting.
Also Mass effect has much better acting, writting, music, and alien speices.
I would love to see 4E modern mass effect game or something similair.
That said, Star Wars: Saga Edition would be my go-to system to play a Mass Effect game in. Homebrew up a few new races, rename the Force feats to Biotics, refluff the weapons to be mass drivers, and you're pretty much good to go.
I think WotC's model of setting releases for 4e strikes a good balance.
One setting a year allows them to stretch their creative muscles with new settings (AFTER they release Dark Sun please ;)), and since it is only two books and an adventure, and not an entire multi-year line of books, if their experiment flops no big deal. I'm hoping this lets them push setting boundaries even more so than EB.
Verys
PS Dark Sun for 2010!
And if someone likes something or they come up with an "out of cycle" addition that's not big enough to warrant a new book, Dungeon and Dragon it.
True, but WotC is understandably scared of doing a lot of fun stuff.
This is a pretty sad fact. Even more than in 3.5, ill probably be looking to 3rd party support for camapaign setting ideas. The stuff ive read about Goodman Game's settings is far more evocative than any of the previews of WotC's generic DnD fare.
No offense intended, but have you played mass effect?
Just off the top of my head here are the diffrences:
Humans are an up and comming species but are largely shut out of the poltical system in the galaxy.
Biotech is just that cybernetic bosting pyschic capablities and not tied to a morality system (very diffrent than the force).
Also, the whole feel of the universe is moral abiguity as opposed to the whole dark side light side thing.
Star Wars is an over the top space adventure setting (more like D&D in space with the force taking the place of magic), Mass effect is much more gritty science fiction setting.
Also Mass effect has much better acting, writting, music, and alien speices.
I would love to see 4E modern mass effect game or something similair.
Yes, I have played Mass Effect. Twice all the way through, in fact.
While I disagree that Mass Effect isn't an Over The Top Space Adventure, or that the Star Wars Universe, with Slavery, Bounty Hunters, and Crime Organizations can't be written in a gritty fashion, I think you miss the point. All your differences are superficial and plot driven. The actual action/style of play isn't going to be any different. I could take Star Wars (Saga or D6) and run Mass Effect just fine and I wouldn't need any new rules. Well, outside of a limit that you can't enter lightspeed without a Mass Device... but that's not really a big rule.
It's not like we are talking the difference between Star Wars and Serenity, here.
I will agree that we need just one more book for the FR's. We need a culture book, as there was a lot of info that kinda was skipped. While you can run without this knowledge from the book, some neat things (like the Rashman Witches) are left out. While we may get FR articles covering this in Dragon, it would be nice if it was available in a HC form.
I suspect the need for one for the Ebberon Setting as well.
I agree with this. The collected Dungeon/Dragon book(s) will help, but as a player and DM, it's always nice to have more backup information to feel like you're properly playing a character from a certain area. Mannerisms, superstitions, traditions, etc. (Not that every character from an area will retain the same aspects of their home culture when they leave, however.)
I just read Bill's latest Ampersand column and to my amazement he's talking about rolling out a new campaign setting next year. Come on guys, just about everybody love the Forgotten Realms, how about committing to supporting it rather than something new.
In fact lets go one stop further, and christen the Forgotten Realms as the official campaign setting for D&D, whatever edition you're playing. Then support it with some box sets - you know like way back in the 2nd edition.
Please.
First, Forgotten Realms sucks.*
* Seriously, I have no desire to ever use it, because it is a boring world. If I wanted to make a generic fantasy world (TM), I'd do it myself. And I often DO do so myself. I don't need a book to do it for me. It is for those people who enjoy that world and don't enjoy worldbuilding, which isn't me. Many people share my opinion on the matter. Its not that it is a bad world, its just that it is a world which is nothing special, nothing unique, nothing I wouldn't come up with.
Secondly, we knew this to be the case. We've always known this would be the case. They know it too. You know why? Because no one wants more books for FG. And by no one, I don't literally mean "No one", I mean "Insufficient people relative to the cost, when they could be doing something which actually reaches a significant audience". They announced they'd be releasing a campaign setting a year, two books: a CG and a PG, plus an adventure. This is good business sense. People will buy a new campaign setting, but only people who play FG will buy another FG book, and only a small subset of them at that!
Thirdly, new campaign settings add stuff. Eberron is interesting as a magepunk world; Dark Sun could add some environmental rules and suchlike which could be fun; other settings could add cool stuff as well. I might actually buy a cool enough campaign setting (I did buy Council of Wyrms, after all). I certainly won't buy random FG book X, and neither will the vast, vast majority of people I know because it doesn't add anything different enough and it is for a world we're not interested in.
I just read Bill's latest Ampersand column and to my amazement he's talking about rolling out a new campaign setting next year. Come on guys, just about everybody love the Forgotten Realms, how about committing to supporting it rather than something new.
In fact lets go one stop further, and christen the Forgotten Realms as the official campaign setting for D&D, whatever edition you're playing. Then support it with some box sets - you know like way back in the 2nd edition.
Please.
While you are entitled to your opinion, and I heartily endorse the concept of WotC developing and releasing more material for Forgotten Realms for people who enjoy the setting, I must disagree with you.
I do not particularly enjoy FR.
Many people (roughly the same proportion as love the setting) hate the setting. You have gotten to hear some of those responses already.
Forgotten Realms has had a good run. It got a lot of support in the past. Now it's time to allow other settings, and new work, to gain some support.
If WotC were to do as you suggest, forsake all other settings and do ONLY forgotten realms, the backlash would be ugly.
And I'd be part of the Ugliness.
-- GRRRRRRRRRR!!More people are going to buy the Player's Guide to Eberron, Player's Guide to Dark Sun or the Player's Guide to Ravenloft than Forgotten Realms Book number 45, 46 or 47. WotC learned in 3E that the more books you put out for a single setting, the less books actually sell while the core setting books always make more money. WotC has opted to only put out the type of books that actually proved successful last edition.
Before this gets any sillier, I just want to say: Eberron rocks.
Eberron does rock. I still would have disagreed with a 'Just stick with Eberron' thread, though.
Eberron does rock. I still would have disagreed with a 'Just stick with Eberron' thread, though.
I agree on both counts.
This is a pretty sad fact. Even more than in 3.5, ill probably be looking to 3rd party support for camapaign setting ideas. The stuff ive read about Goodman Game's settings is far more evocative than any of the previews of WotC's generic DnD fare.
QFT
I'm looking forward to Amethyst and Neurospasta far more than any setting WotC could possibly release (except maybe a 4e Urban Arcana).
Actually never played eberron. Never had the cashflow to buy the setting book. What is it like?
(FR still sucks. Just to keep on topic.)
Basically, the designer realized that magic, particularly D&D's controllable magic, should have an effect on sociological development. Magic affects transportation, commerce, agriculture and (most notably) warfare, so it doesn't look like Dark Age Europe with all the other stuff thrown in.
A century of war has torn the main nation apart, into four nations in a very tense cold war; the fifth nation explodinated, and nobody knows what did it.
Religion is a big part of the setting, but the gods may not even exist.
That's just scratching the surface, but I think it's a good start.
I just read Bill's latest Ampersand column and to my amazement he's talking about rolling out a new campaign setting next year. Come on guys, just about everybody love the Forgotten Realms, how about committing to supporting it rather than something new.
In fact lets go one stop further, and christen the Forgotten Realms as the official campaign setting for D&D, whatever edition you're playing. Then support it with some box sets - you know like way back in the 2nd edition.
Please.
Apparently you missed that there will be new settings each year.
A campaign book and player's guide. Probably an official adventure for that setting. Not much else besides that. Of course, no one says you have to buy them. If you like FR, then stick with it. All the published adventures are setting-general so you can drop them in where ever.Eberron does rock. I still would have disagreed with a 'Just stick with Eberron' thread, though.
I will also agree with this.
I really like the new "a campaign setting each year" approach. It means that we have a real hope of seeing more than one interesting new setting from WotC each edition of the game. Eberron was great, and because of that I want to see what other great new things WotC could come up with if given the opportunity.
That's just scratching the surface, but I think it's a good start.
*Nods* That is a good start, especially if your just looking at converting things. Another element that I particularly enjoy is the different setting themes there are from Pulp to Noir in the cities.
Bel
I have to agree with the consensus that Forgotten Realms has just too much material out there to deal with. The problem with Players that know the "material" as it exists in its published form is that it leads to rules and canon arguments and just way too much work learning it all. I have to hand it to FR though; they build a series of nations that allow the feel of many different cultures while still being High Fantasy. But the problem is that there's too many cultures, too much history, and too many high-end NPCs. Spellplague may have helped... but not enough. Enough to make FR playable, at least. But still, I'd much rather use my own setting.
Spellplague, Darklock, Genasi, Swordmage; these are things that I like though. Drow probably wouldn't have their culture at all w/o FR. It's not my take on Dark Elves, but at least it provides a base for what people know. That's a double-edged sword, however; because if Our Elves Are Different, then players may start to complain of too many trivial changes to make a unique setting. Better if I gather all my original material and make Campaign and Players' Guides for it. And the FR Guides are good models for doing so.
That said, I'm looking forward to Eberron; I'm hoping for Dark Sun, and an Oriental Adventures that doesn't use Kara-Tur or Rokugan (Kara-Tur has folded into FR, and I want independent OA; Rokugan has too many humans, not enough other races). I want Vanaras. And lots of other things OA has to offer.
My guess is that if Ki is the 4 Classes next year, then OA will be the setting; if Psionics is the 4 Classes, then Dark Sun will be. If it's Shadow or Elemental, who knows? I'd personally most want to see Shadow, but we just got Shadar-Kai written up in Dragon, and I'm willing to wait on a PHB/Setting Shadar-Kai race if it means other races like Raptorans, Gith, or Thri-Kreen. Oh, and Shadow would work well with the post-apocalyptic nature of Dark Sun, though it hasn't found a place in the setting in the past. But Elemental Priests exist, and that would point towards a release with a PHB using Elemental as well; possibly 4 Psionic, 2 Ki, 2 Elemental for PHBIII.
It's a nice decade to be a D&D Player, I've got to say. :D
BIRTHRIGHT :D
Though I'll settle for Spelljammer or Planescape.
I would like to see them bring back Spelljammer, Oriental Adventures, but most of all I would like to see them bring back Blackmoor and actually expand on it for once.
Ravenloft would be cool and so would Dragonlance. But I never really liked Dark Sun or Eberron...Dark sun is way too mad max for me and Eberron is way too technology based, even though its magical.
Another thing I would like to see is alternate histories of Earth. Being Heroes in the Legendary age of Greece would be cool. As long as you weren't the errand boys for powerful beings like Herecles and Achilles. Instead you could write your own histories. And being a cleric battling other greek dieties clerics would be cool too. I'm also hoping they rewrite all of the classic dungeons from D&D like the Against the Giants series and the Slavers series.
My genies and I await the return of Al-Qadim. Luckily, we are patient.
Me too, I still think Al-Qadim is the most flavourful and elegant campaign setting to date.
Not that I mean to be off topic here, but how is Mass Effect any different from Star Wars? I mean, you got your Evil Empire, your Stormtroopers (Okay, zombies), your Jedi (Psychics), and you're running around trying to defeat the bad guy. I mean, it's just like Star Wars Universe, just with different trappings.
I mean, it's okay to like the stuff in Mass Effect better. I'm cool with that. However, it's not even remotely radically different from Star Wars.
The same could be said for any D&D game. Just swap out one thing for the other and you are done. Every game essentially has a good guy, bad guy, goons and some special power to fool around with.
What I meant to say is that while it should be high sci-fi like Mass Effect (or any other game/movie/book with a similar setting), it shouldn't be that kind of game. Swapping out its trademark elements and replacing them with trademark D&D elements still doesn't make it D&D.
But the typical D&D vibe can be translated if a sci-fi setting is built around core D&D, instead of building core D&D around a sci-fi setting.
Me too, I still think Al-Qadim is the most flavourful and elegant campaign setting to date.
Ive never seen al-qadim but would there be a way of possibly merging elments of it with elements of darksun? Just asking because from what little I know both are desert settings.
But the typical D&D vibe can be translated if a sci-fi setting is built around core D&D, instead of building core D&D around a sci-fi setting.
Oh, well, for sure. That's very understandable.
(While we are talking about Sci-Fi settings, I would love to see some XXVc love, but I am sure I am almost the only one.).
I want Dark Sun for 2010, but after that?
BIRTHRIGHT :D
Though I'll settle for Spelljammer or Planescape.
Yeah, given the new rule set, it almost seems well suited for Birthright. Not that I liked the setting overly well, but I think it's one of the few settings that would really take advantage of the new ruleset.
Ive never seen al-qadim but would there be a way of possibly merging elments of it with elements of darksun? Just asking because from what little I know both are desert settings.
I've never seen an actual book for either, but from what I know about the settings:
Dark Sun is Flint and Stone, Empty Canteen desert survival.
Al Qadim is Jinn and Damascus Steel and Scheming Sultans and Holy Assassins.
So, no. They can't be combined.
Yeah, given the new rule set, it almost seems well suited for Birthright. Not that I liked the setting overly well, but I think it's one of the few settings that would really take advantage of the new ruleset.
I'd actually prefer that they take the concept of Birthright (scions of ancient bloodlines with unique powers) and apply it to the core setting, using gods, primordials, demon princes, archdevils, archfey, and whatnot as the progenitors of the bloodlines.
The regency/rulership/war aspects of it could be completely divorced from the scion system, to allow characters of all types to participate.
The Forgotten Realms( not thrilled with 4e changes but...)
Dragonlance
Greyhawk
non wotc worlds:
Pathfinder
Castlemourne
Midkemia
and whatever world the Green rider was set in.
I dont like Eberron, not fond of that one with strahd.
and iffie on dark sun.
make what youwant
sue me, two of them dont have campaign settings attached to them, but they would be played in anyway....
Eberron does rock. I still would have disagreed with a 'Just stick with Eberron' thread, though.
I have to agree with this also, I say the more settings the better.
As I mentioned earlier, I would play Forgotten Realms but I never had any desire to run it. Furthermore I never bought a single 3.5 (or 3e) Forgotten Realms book, I had nothing against them per say but I just had other stuff I wanted to buy and I knew I wouldn't use them. Actually, other then Eberron, I rarely bought any campaign books because I prefer to world build myself.
However, 4e managed to actually sell me a FR book - I went out and bought the players guide just because it had lots of cool modular content (the sword mage, dark pact, new feats, etc...) that I could easily transpose into whatever game I am playing.
If WoTC keeps this up, I can virtually guarantee that I will buy almost any players guide that comes out. And, if I only need to go for a one or two book investment (I do have a soft spot for super adventures) I might go with the campaign guides as well!
I'd actually prefer that they take the concept of Birthright (scions of ancient bloodlines with unique powers) and apply it to the core setting, using gods, primordials, demon princes, archdevils, archfey, and whatnot as the progenitors of the bloodlines.
The regency/rulership/war aspects of it could be completely divorced from the scion system, to allow characters of all types to participate.
Well, the whole bloodline rules stuff could be done as multi-classing feats, and then Birthright could also introduce large scale combat rules that could be exported to other settings, like people are suggesting Dark Sun could showcase desert world/savage world rules.
I want that for 2011.
Prince of Persia/Arabian Nights would be an awesome genre for them to cover.
i would love planescape.... or ravenloft...
or this points of light thing
Although GH is fairly standard high fantasy, Gygax et al. managed to write in a lot of complexity and intrigue, but without revealing everything (ala FR). Just my opinion.
And, someone mentioned no Drow without FR...you need to look at the old Against the Giants series for the first Drow mention. Distinctly GH, only borrowed by FR.
Lastly, to respond to the OP, I like FR to a degree (as a RL history buff), but am quite happy they've opted to do the one new campaign a year thing.
Either my tastes are really out of touch, or I'm just too old for the hobby, but I grew up with Greyhawk and would love to see it supported, even if it was just a campaign book.
I don't think you're out of touch at all. I think people would like Greyhawk, properly done up (just like gnomes).
I've heard that the rumor is the new setting is going to be Darksun 4th ed.
Yeah, a lot of us, including myself, are speculating that Dark Sun will be the campaign setting of 2010, to hopefully tie in with Psionics being introduced in the PHB III that same year.
Though there has also been speculation about Dragonlance making an appearance quite soon.
Dragonlance suffers from much the same issue, except that it has the war theme to it.
I don't like the new Dragonlance much. I'm not sure how popular it's been overall.
I just had a thought (Oh, not again…):
-2008: Forgotten Realms (traditional fantasy)
-2009: Eberrron (non-traditional fantasy)
-2010: Dragonlance (traditional fantasy)
-2011: Dark Sun (non-traditional fantasy)
-2012: Greyhawk (traditional fantasy)
...I don't know; I'm just spit-balling here.
I just had a thought (Oh, not again…):
-2008: Forgotten Realms (traditional fantasy)
-2009: Eberrron (non-traditional fantasy)
-2010: Dragonlance (traditional fantasy)
-2011: Dark Sun (non-traditional fantasy)
-2012: Greyhawk (traditional fantasy)
...I don't know; I'm just spit-balling here.
I'm with you on 2010 and 11 - those could appear in either order. Greyhawk for 2011? Maybe, though I wonder whether they'll put out something brand new instead. From 2012 it will be interesting, as there'll be the scent of 5th Edition in the air. Whether they announce it or not, people will be starting to expect it.
From 2012 it will be interesting, as there'll be the scent of 5th Edition in the air. Whether they announce it or not, people will be starting to expect it.
Yeah, if it goes as I think/am speculating (nothing more); we should have 4 classes of each power source by 2011 (something like):
-PHB I: 4 Martial, 2 Arcane, 2 Divine
-PHB II: 4 Primal, 2 Arcane, 2 Divine
-PHB III: 4 Psionic, 2 Ki, 2 Shadow
-PHB IV: 4 Elemental, 2 Ki, 2 Shadow
So after that, who knows?
I just had a thought (Oh, not again…):
-2008: Forgotten Realms (traditional fantasy)
-2009: Eberrron (non-traditional fantasy)
-2010: Dragonlance (traditional fantasy)
-2011: Dark Sun (non-traditional fantasy)
-2012: Greyhawk (traditional fantasy)
...I don't know; I'm just spit-balling here.
The problem I see with this is that it means three "traditional fantasy" settings in five years. That's competing in a very crowded market, not just with various companies putting out specifically 4e D&D campaign worlds but also ones for other systems too. There's several companies coming out with 4e worlds already, and although both Dragonlance and Greyhawk are famous names that isn't necessarily enough for them to succeed when there's competition with a head start. Also, with Wizard's only putting out three books per setting, I can see a lot of fans of more traditionaly styled worlds not wanting to support them in competition to a company putting a large line of books in a generally similar setting. People who want a more unusual setting are probably more willing to put work into it themselves, simply because most "Generic" material is going to be less suited for their worlds, and will be more satisfied with a small line giving them the basics of the world. So I think WotC would do better publishing more non-traditional fantasy settings, with perhaps one in every four or five year period being a retread of something like FR/Greyhawk/DL.
-Joni
-PHB III: 4 Psionic, 2 Ki, 2 Shadow
-PHB IV: 4 Elemental, 2 Ki, 2 Shadow
Steely, you and I are in agreement as to what the most likely arangement of the powers will be for the next 2 books.
Steely, you and I are in agreement as to what the most likely arangement of the powers will be for the next 2 books.
I find myself agreeing with you on a number of things.
But what about PHB V?!
But what about PHB V?!
I have it one good authority that the power sources in PHB V will be Caffeine, Egomania, and Hydrogen Fuel Cells (gotta throw a bone to the Green Crowd, you know)
I have it one good authority that the power sources in PHB V will be Caffeine, Egomania, and Hydrogen Fuel Cells (gotta throw a bone to the Green Crowd, you know)
Nice, I was thinking it will have 8 different Martial Controllers.
Nice, I was thinking it will have 8 different Martial Controllers.
Naw. It will be the When Strikers Go Wild Edition more strikers, much more strikers. Honestly, the Martial Controller is like the flying dutchman of the D&D 4E.
I have it one good authority that the power sources in PHB V will be Caffeine, Egomania, and Hydrogen Fuel Cells (gotta throw a bone to the Green Crowd, you know)
To be fair, it's not just the green crowd. I am decidedly Not Greentm, and I fully support Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars. Renewable energy is better in the long term, and Hydrogen is a LOT cheaper per gallon.
While "Points of Light" is not Greyhawk, nor is it trying to be, it takes familiar concepts that were Greyhawk (and Planescape) flavour and sets it to its own tune. The difference really is that Greyhawk has a set world with countries, and "Points of Light" is trying to stay away from that, only referencing things of the past such as Arkhosia and Bael Turath, and a couple of places like Fallcrest. Greyhawk would essentially be the "let's set a world to 'Points of Light' so that our Players would decide to lock themselves down into the Greyhawk fluff instead of being able to build our own world as we go" mentality. It's the same reason they got rid of fluff requirements for Paragon Paths. Not that DMs can't rule it as not being part of his/her campaign to have that fluff requirement, but that by doing so, the Player feels s/he must fulfill the fluff, and it loses some of the creativity than if it were just crunch.
Greyhawk would be blander than bland - getting back Boccob and Olidammara and Heironeus and Hextor - for the sake of creating a fleshed out world set to the basic core setting. No.
Dragonlance at least reinterprets the world somewhat. Forgotten Realms, while bothersome and cumbersome, is enough different from the Core Setting to be its own thing. Greyhawk would only be sort-of a Campaign Setting, unless you did away with the 4e Cosmology, which would defeat the purpose of the Cosmos shift, and is precisely NOT what Wizards have said they are going to do (they're codifying the World Axis for all Settings, including Eberron).
Dark Sun, Dragonlance, and Oriental Adventures (but not Rokugan or Kara-Tur) would do it for me. Then we could get settings like a Desert Nights Setting (ala Al-Quadim, but not tied to FR) or Swashbuckling Adventures, or D20 Modern, for instance, and spice it up a bit.
Then again... what I really want is Mark of Amber updated to 4e. Only adventure module I've ever really liked...
I highly doubt they'd do Greyhawk. "Points of Light" is like the spiritual successor to Greyhawk, only new and improved. Various deities of Greyhawk have made it into the Core Rules, such as Kord or Vecna, and at times happen to get small references - like Nerull being the Evil God of Death who stole the souls of the departed and locked them up in his Astral Dominion of Pluton. This is very much like Nerull in his final layer of The Grey Waste of Hades, also known as Pluton, back in Greyhawk. What's more, the "Raven Queen" killed Nerull, and took his portfolio of Death. There seems to be a "sucession" going on here, and it's not just in this one area.
While "Points of Light" is not Greyhawk, nor is it trying to be, it takes familiar concepts that were Greyhawk (and Planescape) flavour and sets it to its own tune. The difference really is that Greyhawk has a set world with countries, and "Points of Light" is trying to stay away from that, only referencing things of the past such as Arkhosia and Bael Turath, and a couple of places like Fallcrest. Greyhawk would essentially be the "let's set a world to 'Points of Light' so that our Players would decide to lock themselves down into the Greyhawk fluff instead of being able to build our own world as we go" mentality. It's the same reason they got rid of fluff requirements for Paragon Paths. Not that DMs can't rule it as not being part of his/her campaign to have that fluff requirement, but that by doing so, the Player feels s/he must fulfill the fluff, and it loses some of the creativity than if it were just crunch.
Greyhawk would be blander than bland - getting back Boccob and Olidammara and Heironeus and Hextor - for the sake of creating a fleshed out world set to the basic core setting. No.
Dragonlance at least reinterprets the world somewhat. Forgotten Realms, while bothersome and cumbersome, is enough different from the Core Setting to be its own thing. Greyhawk would only be sort-of a Campaign Setting, unless you did away with the 4e Cosmology, which would defeat the purpose of the Cosmos shift, and is precisely NOT what Wizards have said they are going to do (they're codifying the World Axis for all Settings, including Eberron).
Dark Sun, Dragonlance, and Oriental Adventures (but not Rokugan or Kara-Tur) would do it for me. Then we could get settings like a Desert Nights Setting (ala Al-Quadim, but not tied to FR) or Swashbuckling Adventures, or D20 Modern, for instance, and spice it up a bit.
I'm certain that I saw, somewhere, that they were doing Greyhawk 4e, and something about rolling the clock BACK to before the Greyhawk wars.
Here it is.
However, I can't seem to find an official version anywhere.
But, it is an interesting concept.
The new cosmology makes visits to worlds of fire and earth actually survivable. The cosmopolitan nature makes it easy to incorporate all the races as mentioned in the books, especially Tieflings, Devas, and Genasi and Manual of the Planes material.
It also provides a great change of pace from both Forgotten Realms and Eberron.
I wouldn't mind seeing a Dark Sun release after Psionics gets full support.
Out there in terms of truly wishful thinking, I would really like to see WOTC pick up the Nyambe African Adventures setting.
I highly doubt they'd do Greyhawk. "Points of Light" is like the spiritual successor to Greyhawk, only new and improved. Various deities of Greyhawk have made it into the Core Rules, such as Kord or Vecna, and at times happen to get small references - like Nerull being the Evil God of Death who stole the souls of the departed and locked them up in his Astral Dominion of Pluton. This is very much like Nerull in his final layer of The Grey Waste of Hades, also known as Pluton, back in Greyhawk. What's more, the "Raven Queen" killed Nerull, and took his portfolio of Death. There seems to be a "sucession" going on here, and it's not just in this one area.
While "Points of Light" is not Greyhawk, nor is it trying to be, it takes familiar concepts that were Greyhawk (and Planescape) flavour and sets it to its own tune. The difference really is that Greyhawk has a set world with countries, and "Points of Light" is trying to stay away from that, only referencing things of the past such as Arkhosia and Bael Turath, and a couple of places like Fallcrest. Greyhawk would essentially be the "let's set a world to 'Points of Light' so that our Players would decide to lock themselves down into the Greyhawk fluff instead of being able to build our own world as we go" mentality. It's the same reason they got rid of fluff requirements for Paragon Paths. Not that DMs can't rule it as not being part of his/her campaign to have that fluff requirement, but that by doing so, the Player feels s/he must fulfill the fluff, and it loses some of the creativity than if it were just crunch.
Greyhawk would be blander than bland - getting back Boccob and Olidammara and Heironeus and Hextor - for the sake of creating a fleshed out world set to the basic core setting. No.
Dragonlance at least reinterprets the world somewhat. Forgotten Realms, while bothersome and cumbersome, is enough different from the Core Setting to be its own thing. Greyhawk would only be sort-of a Campaign Setting, unless you did away with the 4e Cosmology, which would defeat the purpose of the Cosmos shift, and is precisely NOT what Wizards have said they are going to do (they're codifying the World Axis for all Settings, including Eberron).
Dark Sun, Dragonlance, and Oriental Adventures (but not Rokugan or Kara-Tur) would do it for me. Then we could get settings like a Desert Nights Setting (ala Al-Quadim, but not tied to FR) or Swashbuckling Adventures, or D20 Modern, for instance, and spice it up a bit.
All I want is darksun followed by new material. Leave the old stuff as is. People can adapt it if they want. Where as new settings would add things and dimensions we have not seen.
And to those of you who say there's little difference between FR, DL, and GH, I agree. However, the Setting fanboys think the world of their Setting, and will probably only get interested in 4ed if there's a flavour book on their setting.
1) Generic Fantasy Settings from the past. Greyhawk, mostly. Standard fantasy tropes apply, and most of these settings would center on maps, history, and cultures.
2) Unique Fantasy Settings from the past. Dark Sun, Planescape, and the like. Places with fastly different worlds, made from the ground up, complete with new or shifted crunch.
3) Regional Fantasy Settings from the past. Oriental Adventures, Al-Quadim, Nyambe African Adventures, etc. Things based on real-world cultures put into DnD terms.
Fascinating.
Out there in terms of truly wishful thinking, I would really like to see WOTC pick up the Nyambe African Adventures setting.
Agreed. I've always wanted to play that setting. Unfortunately, it may not be all expansive enough to count as a setting, just as Oriental Adventures may not make it to a setting because it's "Just one region of the world." It could definitely work as it's own thing if the technology is leveled down, and it would be really awesome to see ancient Dragonborn ruins amidst the thick jungles. In fact, a Tropical, low-tech setting in general would be awesome, whether it is African, Caribbean, South American, Central American, South Asian, Oceanian, etc. Or a fusion, because D&D isn't supposed to necessarily emulate all the different cultures (i.e. Faerûn + Zakhara + Kara-Tur + Maztica + Anchorome), but rather create a new thing so we don't get into needless regional ghettos. Not that those equivalent lands are necessarily a bad thing, but it can be a lot more interesting with some more cultural diffusion (something Faerûn at least does with African-like human nations). What we could ultimately get is Maori-like tattooed Dwarves utilising Primal, with ancient Draconic ruins lost amidst Amazon-like rainforests and Voodoo Witch doctors and Temples to deities and ancient primordial beings that seem similar to places like Angkor Wat on island nations or something. It would be an awesome different angle at D&D.
On the subject of Greyhawk 4e, Canonfire! can build Greyhawk material, I'm just not in for it. As for the official Greyhawk 4e CS they're mentioning (which seems to have given the non-4e-believers terrible cries of agony), I'm somewhat surprised that they're doing it at all, considering how many of the concepts from Greyhawk have been ported to "Points of Light." According to that description, basically, they're adapting Greyhawk to fit as a world for "Points of Light" and the World Axis, and turning back the clock. But the ultimate struggles of Greyhawk are mostly represented already with "Points of Light;" i.e., Tharizdun, Against the Giants, etc, have already been ported to the core setting. Greyhawk seems like it will just be giving an alternate history and codified lands and switch up a couple of deities.
Because of such minor changes on the cosmological scale, I assume Greyhawk won't be 2010. Hopefully it will come after PHBIV has issued, and we've gotten all the power sources we've currently been promised, and then they can start working with everything in new ways, and one would be to bring back Greyhawk. I can see that, definitely. But not before 2012.
That would also put it in the mid-life point of 4e (4 years in), and would give a new starting point to deal with, when they're pumping out new books like Puppy Power and maybe finally looking at a book on the Far Realms.
They could also pull a 2e/3e on us and make 4.5e in 2012, and release it with Greyhawk, making us buy PHB 1-4 over again. I'd hope not.
Agreed. I've always wanted to play that setting. Unfortunately, it may not be all expansive enough to count as a setting, just as Oriental Adventures may not make it to a setting because it's "Just one region of the world." It could definitely work as it's own thing if the technology is leveled down, and it would be really awesome to see ancient Dragonborn ruins amidst the thick jungles. In fact, a Tropical, low-tech setting in general would be awesome, whether it is African, Caribbean, South American, Central American, South Asian, Oceanian, etc. Or a fusion, because D&D isn't supposed to necessarily emulate all the different cultures (i.e. Faerûn + Zakhara + Kara-Tur + Maztica + Anchorome), but rather create a new thing so we don't get into needless regional ghettos. Not that those equivalent lands are necessarily a bad thing, but it can be a lot more interesting with some more cultural diffusion (something Faerûn at least does with African-like human nations). What we could ultimately get is Maori-like tattooed Dwarves utilising Primal, with ancient Draconic ruins lost amidst Amazon-like rainforests and Voodoo Witch doctors and Temples to deities and ancient primordial beings that seem similar to places like Angkor Wat on island nations or something. It would be an awesome different angle at D&D.
Nyambe had everything a setting needed. It wasn't all jungle. There were coastal regions, islands, mountains, deserts, temperate plains, etc. All the equipment from the PHB was available as well. Most people just generally eschewed heavier metal armor because of the warmer weather down south.
Oh, I didn't mean to sound like only using Jungle. I know that Nyambe utilised other areas such as the coasts or the Savanna, or a Sahara-like desert; I just meant that we could even have a setting that wasn't necessarily an "African Adventures" but rather looked at a whole different series of alternate cultural builds for races to spice it up a bit. I'd be very happy with a 4e Nyambe though.
Ah, I got you now.
Speaking of which, I would love to see a Mediterranean core setting. That way, you could keep the general appeal of a European setting, while more easily integrating African, central Asian, and far Asian elements. 4E core already strongly leans towards a Greek or post-fall of Rome style world with it's God vs the Primordials theme, exceptional heroes, and lack of sprawling empires and kingdoms in favor of independent city-states and local alliances.
But just because there's cultural diffusion doesn't mean it's not still High Medieval Fantasy. I agree, I'd like to see some CS that focuses on Cultural Diffusion.
Actually, that's kind of what my homemade setting is... with some heavy Celtic (and especially Welsh) overtones to the entire thing, but the culturally mixed, and a major Sea with several nations along it's coast. And Welsh myth easily fit into a "war between Gods and Giants," though we need to extend this to Dark Fey and most Shadow beings on the side of the Primordials, and the Court of Stars on the side of the Gods.
Wasn't that originally the concept behind FR and the Sea of Fallen Stars? There seem to be African-nations south of the SoFS, if I remember.
Considering how little material there is on Chult and the lands beyond the east, I would be surprised.
Ah, I got you now.
Speaking of which, I would love to see a Mediterranean core setting. That way, you could keep the general appeal of a European setting, while more easily integrating African, central Asian, and far Asian elements. 4E core already strongly leans towards a Greek or post-fall of Rome style world with it's God vs the Primordials theme, exceptional heroes, and lack of sprawling empires and kingdoms in favor of independent city-states and local alliances.
How about pre Roman? Lots of feuding city states and the like. It could be really interesting. Petty empires come and go. Youd have some small empires but that would be it.
So we have a Gothic Arabian landscape, mostly desert but with oriental jungle bits, ruled by Dragons (good and bad) and you must avoid the mist! Also, people tend to fly around on giant ships that sail through the sky (and possibly beyond the stars at epic level).
Bel
Eberron, please. I never tried it in 3rd edition and would love to give it a shot.
Thats this year ;)
The more I think about it, the more I'd like Blackmoor and Mystara to be given the 4E treatment, Greyhawk was to intrigue centered for me.
Bel
Never saw those so it would be like getting something new. Grey Hawk was too bland. As long as its flavourful and fun, and actually adds something new Ill be happy.
No love for Mystara?
Ahem. I too saw the Hollow Earth! That said, my most favorite part of the setting was the Red Steel box sets.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/251598-what-do-you-think-new-setting-will-ampersand-6.html
FR hate here is amusing
particularly the people who aren't familiar with the setting, are afraid and think it's bloated cause of so many books
not true, except for Waterdeep
Isle of Dread - Mystara - Feywild
Domains of Dread - Ravenloft - Shadowfell
Spelljammers - Spelljammer - Astral Sea
Sigil, City of Doors - Planescape - Demiplane
Those are all core elements of various Campaign Settings of the past. Considering that these elements themselves have been incorporated into the Core Setting of "Points of Light," I would hesitate to think that they may create 4e Campaign Setting material for them.
particularly the people who aren't familiar with the setting, are afraid and think it's bloated cause of so many books
not true, except for Waterdeep
Here is a list of all of the novels set in FR, we are up to 54. This is not including the near equally prodigious amount of "splat" books for FR that have come out over the years, or the sea of articles in Dragon, or the Living Realms info.
I think that's bloated, especially in comparison to other systems who have very little in the way of novels or rules attached to them.
Yes, definitely want Mystara next.
Here is a list of all of the novels set in FR, we are up to 54. This is not including the near equally prodigious amount of "splat" books for FR that have come out over the years, or the sea of articles in Dragon, or the Living Realms info.
I think that's bloated, especially in comparison to other systems who have very little in the way of novels or rules attached to them.
it has a lot of locales, but I see that as a plethora of options
when you zoom in to a particular locale you realize the place isn't that detailed at all and you need more
the whole 3e era of FR was mostly about compiling some parts of the earlier lore, and in earlier editions sometimes the same places get several splatbooks while some didn't get nothing, so there's a lot repetition
e.g. the central parts of Khorvaire are richer in detail than let's say the Western Heartlands which is a crucial region, the only exceptions are the Sword Coast with Waterdeep, maybe the Dalelands, and Cormyr (but that's cause of Ed's internet replies)
also most FR novels are poor considering the lore, after their plot ends they might as well be forgotten after that
yes it's a mess, I kicked a lot of canon stuff from my home version, but I feel the skeleton of it (Sword Coast, the Heartlands and Thay) is perfect for what classic D&D should be
Anyone want something new?
As I recall, and by recall I mean read on Wikipedia, or course, Eberron was the winner of the Fantasy Setting Search that Wizards held to create a new setting. Now, considering that one had 11,000 entries, I'm not so sure another such competition would be easily done. Still, perhaps some of those Semi-Finalists have not published their settings on their own. Or maybe some creative minds somewhere can envision something entirely unique for the 4e line.
Because as much as I love the past campaign settings, I don't think that we should spend all of fourth edition's lifespan just remaking the old material. Most of the old stuff should actually still work(within reason, and a LOT of handwaving when it comes to Vancian magic getting the boot/rituals replacing all the big stuff). Personally....I've got the itch. The little scratching sensation that looks at the books and thinks "This deserves something unique. Something all its own."
Methinks we need a setting that is entirely, completely, wonderfully new. Something made, designed, and built for 4th edition.
........................And it could be in space. :D
Anyone want something new?
After Dark Sun comes out in 2010, yes, I would greater prefer the 2011 setting be brand new. :D Heh, yeah, I know Dark Sun is not a guarantee. However, a huge percentage of the 4E devs when asked at the cons listed Dark Sun as their top choice, it is far and away the top choice on ENWorld, it has been mentioned in existing material without incorporating it into the Point of Light (as Spelljammer, Planescape and Ravenloft have been, to varying degrees), and it has had an actual, official Dragon Magazine article printed for it for 4E.
If I'm not mistaken, the other major finalist that lost out to Eberron was a world in which one half always faces the sun, and the other half always faces away. With the bright side being baked in perpetual heat and light, and the dark side bitterly cold and dark, most of the denizens of the world live in the twilight zone between the two extremes. This could be a pretty interesting world, although you'd have to throw anything resembling real world physics out the window, heh.
If not that setting (provided I'm remembering it correctly), something entirely new would be my preferred choice, with a constant rotation between an older setting redux and brand new setting on rotation. Thus, the schedule would be something like:
2008: Forgotten Realms (Old)
2009: Eberron (New; Not brand new, granted)
2010: Dark Sun (Old)
2011: ? (New)
2012: Dragonlance (Old)
2013: ? (New)
2014: Mystara (Old)
2015: ? (New)
etc.
etc.
etc.
If I'm not mistaken, the other major finalist that lost out to Eberron was a world in which one half always faces the sun, and the other half always faces away. With the bright side being baked in perpetual heat and light, and the dark side bitterly cold and dark, most of the denizens of the world live in the twilight zone between the two extremes. This could be a pretty interesting world, although you'd have to throw anything resembling real world physics out the window, heh.
Ah, you mean someone dusted off the old Rudy Kraft Portals of Twilight by Judges Guild? You've described the module exactly. Since you said it sounds interesting, check it out. JG770 is the JG number.
Personally I've never been all that fond of "campaign settings".
I like the small areas that are plug-n-play.
These Elsir and Nentir Vales are perfect for me, keep developing those!
If you did though, you should have a look at the new 4E version. I find the reduction in the numbers of high level NPCs, disconnection from heavy lore entries that basically remove any room for inserting your own material and other factors have greatly improved the setting.
Then again, in many ways it's still a fairly generic "throw anything in if it seems to stick" setting, but I feel that's a good advantage. You can run quite a lot of different campaigns in it as it can accommodate quite a lot. The past lore, while often changed considerably due to the spellplague can be a useful resource as well - without the previous problems of dictating things you could and couldn't do potentially.
At least that's how I feel.
Ah, you mean someone dusted off the old Rudy Kraft Portals of Twilight by Judges Guild? You've described the module exactly. Since you said it sounds interesting, check it out. JG770 is the JG number.
Personally I've never been all that fond of "campaign settings".
I like the small areas that are plug-n-play.
These Elsir and Nentir Vales are perfect for me, keep developing those!
That's also the exact description of the Twi'lek home world in Star Wars, and think I've come across it in a few other stories as well. Tidally locked planets are certainly possible (it's already happened to our own moon, after all).
No love for Mystara?
Never heard of it.
Then again, just because Tharizdun, Nerull, Vecna, Corellon, Moradin, Kord, and Asmodeus are in "Points of Light" as Deities doesn't mean that Greyhawk can't be published with those characters playing central roles in the greater arching world plots.
I just wouldn't play Greyhawk 4e because the only things it has to offer would be the cultural settings of the lands on its Natural World, which is essentially High (i.e. Generic) Fantasy [not that High Fantasy is always generic, but it often is].
Plus, the Isle of Dread has been ported to Greyhawk in the past, so who's to say that that bars Mystara from being reproduced. I guess it has about the same chance of being reproduced as Greyhawk, only probably much less because it isn't as well know.
But the concepts like the Hollow World are really awesome, and I wouldn't be unhappy with Mystara too much. I'd just like to see some new things, and would prefer Dark Sun, as it is wildly different from the High Fantasy of Greyhawk and Mystara (and Forgotten Realms, but it was a child born from the two progenitor-worlds of D&D).
I'd be interested in wildly different settings. A Sword & Sorcery Setting would be of interest. Even more primitive too. More advanced settings. And settings that make you think "what the!??" Those are of highest demands. Settings so surreal that consistency is a joke. Would go over very well. Make for some wildly original and memorable game sessions, whether they be good or bad. But my group tends to end up with sessions that make little sense in the long run anyways, as each DM pulls in a different twisted and psychotic direction as cycle through terms... well, maybe there's one who doesn't go off the path of standard D&D, but that's always a fresh change of pace anyways.
Never heard of it.
It's the implied setting of the old 0e books... think it got a full writeup for 1e as well. The best adventure module I've ever played through - and the only one I've ever liked enough to GM - was Mark of Amber, set on Mystara.
Hollow World, Red Steel, Immortals, and d'Ambrevilles. Neat setting.
A pity about what happened to that Cleric.
-Joni
Then again, in many ways it's still a fairly generic "throw anything in if it seems to stick" setting, but I feel that's a good advantage.
See, this is exactly what i don't like about FR/Greyhawk. A dish has a more distinct and ultimately more interesting flavor if you choose specific ingredients to put in it instead of including everything on your spice rack. Likewise, the most interesting worlds ive played in have been intriguing not only because of what unique quirks they include, but because of what generic fantasy fodder they have excluded.
Though I could get behind Mystara & more specifically the Red Steel/Savage Coast area. :D
I noticed that the company that was selling it has removed links to it from their webpage within the last few months.
And as was said in the 1st articles they are going to give us little hints here and there in articles that will help us figure it out. Didnt see much in the way of hints in the 1st few articles.
Perhaps Midnight?
I noticed that the company that was selling it has removed links to it from their webpage within the last few months.
But they still hold the rights and besides WoTC has the rights to Ravenloft and Mask of Red Death already. Midnight was fun, but WoTC will play closer to their base.
And as was said in the 1st articles they are going to give us little hints here and there in articles that will help us figure it out. Didnt see much in the way of hints in the 1st few articles.
No what was said was that hints are going to be given in future Ampersands. We are still a month away from getting our first hint.
Yes it does.
Did we stumble into the Argument Clinic?
How about a Magic the Gathering setting for D&D 4E? It could be done fairly easily, especially with colors of magic and power cards, it hasn't been done before for a tabletop rpg, there is a ton of lore for it that could be put to paper and they already have the rights for it.
I have yet to grow tired of the Forgotten Realms setting and have been playing that one since its release. I hope it continues... forever.
Someone mentioned Birthright and I would consider that setting as a worthy alternative. Dragonlance is too. However, interest is limited and so the bottom line is that these might not be profitable to pursue.
Mystara, Greyhawk and Eberron are inferior in my opinion so I wouldn't bother with any of those. Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Ravenloft and other similar off-shoots fall short as well, economically speaking.
While a new setting might be a welcome addition, it would need to be something very, very special. In other words, something very un-Eberron.
How about a Magic the Gathering setting for D&D 4E? It could be done fairly easily, especially with colors of magic and power cards, it hasn't been done before for a tabletop rpg, there is a ton of lore for it that could be put to paper and they already have the rights for it.
I have yet to grow tired of the Forgotten Realms setting and have been playing that one since its release. I hope it continues... forever.
Someone mentioned Birthright and I would consider that setting as a worthy alternative. Dragonlance is too. However, interest is limited and so the bottom line is that these might not be profitable to pursue.
Mystara, Greyhawk and Eberron are inferior in my opinion so I wouldn't bother with any of those. Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Ravenloft and other similar off-shoots fall short as well, economically speaking.
I've thought of a 4e M:TG setting. It could be done, but such a setting would need its own hook to prevent it being too similar to Forgotten Realms. What I'd include would be planeswalkers - powerful solo beings who roam the world and planes, battling each other while dragging others into their conflicts. There might be no wars between nations, just wars between planeswalker armies.
The sister-thread to this one on ENworld has a poll showing Dark Sun way out ahead. Not all CSs are represented in the poll though, so take it with a grain of salt (like all polls!).
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/251598-what-do-you-think-new-setting-will-ampersand-6.html
I have a poll about the players expectations on the set for 2010. Dark Sun is winning by far, Dragonlance, Spelljammer and a Conan-based setting had some votes too.
Fell free to check the blog. It is in portugues, but the pool can be easyly found.
http://nerdcore-dnd.blogspot.com/
Please WotC! Hear the fans and launch Dark Sun on 2010!!!
I was under the impression that Planescape was going to get some attention? Maybe just a splat-book for Sigil, or something, but I'd like to see that. Did I read that somewhere, or am I mistaken?
Sigil is being detailed in DMGII.
I guess I will be the punching bag. I want Greyhawk. I want Tomb of Horrors, Barrier Peaks, IUZ, Temple of Elemental Evil and all the delicious goodies that the setting offered back in the day. It's High Fantasy and It's Great. But maybe I'm just crazy because I like all the settings. I think a Barrier Peaks re-do would be a great segway into a Gamma World / Spelljammer launch.
.....If I'm not mistaken, I believe that both the Tomb of Horrors and the Temple of Elemental Evil have been absored into the PoL default setting. :P
While a new setting might be a welcome addition, it would need to be something very, very special. In other words, something very un-Eberron.
How about a Magic the Gathering setting for D&D 4E? It could be done fairly easily, especially with colors of magic and power cards, it hasn't been done before for a tabletop rpg, there is a ton of lore for it that could be put to paper and they already have the rights for it.
I think that a Magic the gathering setting could be pretty interesting, but I doubt we will see it soon. I think it is more likely that it would show up as the fifth or sixth setting of 4E rather than the third. Let 4E D&D develop as its own brand a bit more before starting with the crossovers.
I am on the "totally new setting" bandwagon, though. The other setting search finalists would be great. Did we really get information about them? The idea of a world that doesn't rotate is both believable and interesting, so if that is a gimmick behind one of the other finalists I really want to see it.
I just had a thought (Oh, not again…):
-2008: Forgotten Realms (traditional fantasy)
-2009: Eberrron (non-traditional fantasy)
-2010: Dragonlance (traditional fantasy)
-2011: Dark Sun (non-traditional fantasy)
-2012: Greyhawk (traditional fantasy)
Thing is, I think they have no choice but to release only non-traditional settings.
Here's why:
Forgotten Realms and Grayhawk fulfill the same niche, basically a world for people who don't want to build their own world, but want to play in a fantasy setting. Dragonlance does the same to a large degree, as really the only interesting thing about the setting is it being a war setting, which is really better suited to an adventure path than a campaign setting. Birthright probably falls prey to the same issue.
Dark Sun and Eberron both tap into different markets, and therefore will sell. Greyhawk and Dragonlance, simply put, don't. Only the hardcore fans would buy them, and I don't think there are enough to justify printing the settings. They also would cut into the sales of the FR books.
Its best not to release products which compete with themselves as much as possible.
Dark Sun is a decently solid bet, I think, simply because A) it allows them to print the desert environmental book as well in a form more people will buy and B) it is a distinctive world, both tonally and otherwise. Not to mention C) its popular and D) its actually had an article produced for it in 4th edition.
Ravenloft seems to have been incorporated into the Shadowfell, so it is probably out.
I think that means that, in 2011, we'll see an entirely new campaign setting. Dungeon Punk, High Fantasy, and Surivialist World would have been covered by that point, Grayhawk, Dragonlance, and Mystara are insufficiently different from FR, and Al-Quadim steps on too many toes between FR and Dark Sun.
One possible setting would be an Age of Exploration/Golden Age of Piracy setting - very different tonally from high fantasy, and would give them an excuse to add in a book with a bunch of renaissance style stuff, which many people like and could increase sales of books which otherwise have fairly narrow appeal. Something which is more Wuxia or animesque is another potential campaign setting, which could tie in nicely with the Ki power source.
Council of Wyrms is something that I really like, but honestly, I'm not sure it is worth incorporating into D&D. While the setting is cool, as is being a dragon, D&D itself is designed for hominid PCs, not dragons, which break the game in all sorts of unpleasant ways, invalidating much of the monster manual and being highly incompatible with normal PCs. It'd be much better as a stand-alone game, which really means it won't exist at all most likely (as why compete with yourself?).
I think the key is that the setting has to not be gimmicky, but it has to have a strong and unique theme, otherwise it will just sit there on shelves.
1.) Dragonlance does the same to a large degree, as really the only interesting thing about the setting is it being a war setting, which is really better suited to an adventure path than a campaign setting.
2.) it allows them to print the desert environmental book
1.) Someone else pointed out that Dragonlance, just after the cataclysm, fits quite well into the PoL theme, and I agree, so I could easily see it coming back (and they mentioned Krynn dragons in the 4th Ed Draconomicon).
2.) I really hope they don't bring out environment books in 4th Ed.
As for Eberron, I never cared for it. Airships and Lightning Rail Trains? Honestly if I wanted to play Final Fantasy, I'd play Final Fantasy, not D&D, thanks. I mentioned this in another thread recently, so I'll just let it drop there, but I will point out that simply put, that is my opinion of Eberron. I am not trying to trash it or anything, just putting my view out as to why I don't care for it.
If they honestly just did away with those two campaign settings I'd be so estatic that I'd probably just die on the spot. Seriously, both of those settings had their run in 3e. It's time for some older settings to make a comeback, and for new ones to be created.
In that vein, I'd be fine with Dark Sun, and since that's a logical leap considering everything I've read on this thread, that's cool by me. Now Titanium Dragon, you made some comments about the various settings, and why they wouldn't work, maintaining throughout that WotC should not compete with themselves. What you fail to realize is that something called variety is a good thing. Having multiple 'generic' high fantasy settings is not a bad thing. It makes it so that those of us who want something other than FR for our high fantasy setting will have it. Some of us don't have time to make our own and don't want to run FR again. I would love to see Mystara/Red Steel made into a current campaign setting. That way I don't HAVE to play FR for a so-called 'generic' setting.
As for Dragonlance, I don't think you see that it is not your typical campiagn setting if played in the true spirit of the setting. It is a setting made for more intense role-players. Sure if you just want to go out and kill some goblins, draconians and maybe a dragon with a cool magic lance, it can be that. But if you look at all the old fluff for the game there are some serious role-playing oppurtunities if presented properly, like the Tests of High Sorcery, or the induction into the Solamnic Order. Now granted all settings can be like this, but nowhere have I ever seen a setting that had as much thought-provoking role-play as Dragonlance.
And Birthright is a horse of a different stripe altogether. As in you see a horse where there is really a zebra. It is not a generic high fantasy setting by any means. End of story. It was one of the first games I ever played in that threw typical fantasy tropes on its ear. Not only that it had a deep political game, and real consequences to that political game. It was also (correct me if I'm wrong, because I could be) the first setting to introduce the idea of a mass combat system to A/D&D, as well as higher levels of resource managment beyond your own gold and such. It can play much like a turn-based PC strategy game if run well. I've been lucky enough to play in a game like that, and it was simply awe-inspiring to me. Of course the DM of that game was a political science major with a second major in mathematics.
So for my votes, I'd like to see Birthright, Mystara/Red Steel/Hollow World, Dragonlance, and Dark Sun. As for anything new, well if it catches my interest I'll give it a go, no doubt. And I hope that they do have some new stuff waiting in the wings, because some new settings would be awesome. Who knows, maybe they will do another contest and actually have someone win who is actually a fan rather than someone who has had stuff published and is a known name in the field win.
Sorry but that contest left a bitter taste in my mouth. It's like making a contest where you could be the next big star in the next big movie, and then having someone like say Michael Wincott win. Sure he's known as an actor, but he's never had any big parts in a movie, he's always a secondary or tertiary, so technically he 'won'. Same difference with Keith Baker. I would much prefer to see a setting made by someone like you or I. Someone who took time out of their normal lives, between school, work and other such things to try and reach for their dream so to speak and come up with a D&D setting that everyone will want to play so much so that WotC says 'Hey cool idea, we'll pay you for it, and you can come work for us.' I would LOVE to see more of what someone like that has to offer. I know this because I love some of the homebrew stuff I've seen on the Hombrew forum, and some of those people should be paid for some of the stuff I've seen. Just sayin. Anyway to keep on track with this little side rant, I would like to see a new campaign world made by some of the people on these forums published by WotC. I honestly think some of the most creative ideas come from the fans.
There was a sons of mercy Paragon Path in one of the early 4e dragon magazines. Why would they release something Planescape specific like that otherwise?
Dark Sun would be my 2nd bet.
Now if We get Psi 4/shadow 2/ki 2 my bet is with Dark Sun.
If on the other hand we get Ki 4/psi 2/shadow 2 it's going to be a Oriental Adventures style setting.
And if by chance Shadow 4/whatever it's going to be Ravenloft.
Either way, Eberron the setting calls for SOME Psionic support. So..I'm hoping Dark Sun as a Psi featured book would cover the issue.
There was a sons of mercy Paragon Path in one of the early 4e dragon magazines. Why would they release something Planescape specific like that otherwise?
Because it isn't Planescape specific anymore? With Planescape absorbed into PoL, the Sons of Mercy PP is a PoL PP not a Planescape specific one.
I'm hoping it's Dark Sun for 2010, not because I love Dark Sun or anything but because I've heard of it and it sounds cool. I'd be happy with just about anything that's not classic fantasy (that's what FR is for).
If they released it in 4e, I'd definitely give it a second chance. I didn't find it that distasteful, after all, and 4e's treatment of FR got me to liking that setting again, so 4e might even change my mind. Just please, lose the 7 foot tall elves.
2.) I really hope they don't bring out environment books in 4th Ed.
They will bring them back in some form, they're just too good of an idea to not bring back.
1.) Someone else pointed out that Dragonlance, just after the cataclysm, fits quite well into the PoL theme, and I agree, so I could easily see it coming back (and they mentioned Krynn dragons in the 4th Ed Draconomicon).
Problem is, we could just play Forgotten Realms.
I for one am kind of tired of WotC's two golden children of the Camapign Setting market. Those of course being Forgotten Realms and Eberron. I like FR to a degree, but after running it for over a two year span in 3/3.5, I got enough of it.
FR is okay, but its really, as I said, a generic campaign setting. It will probably always be around, though.
As for Eberron, I never cared for it. Airships and Lightning Rail Trains? Honestly if I wanted to play Final Fantasy, I'd play Final Fantasy, not D&D, thanks. I mentioned this in another thread recently, so I'll just let it drop there, but I will point out that simply put, that is my opinion of Eberron. I am not trying to trash it or anything, just putting my view out as to why I don't care for it.
It doesn't matter that you don't like it. A lot of people do. Even I'm somewhat fond of it, though I wouldn't run it.
If they honestly just did away with those two campaign settings I'd be so estatic that I'd probably just die on the spot. Seriously, both of those settings had their run in 3e. It's time for some older settings to make a comeback, and for new ones to be created.
Most of the old settings are dead for a reason. New settings are good, though.
What you fail to realize is that something called variety is a good thing. Having multiple 'generic' high fantasy settings is not a bad thing.
What you fail to realize is that it isn't actually a good thing.
Doing what you're proposing is exactly what killed TSR. They printed a bunch of stuff which chewed up each others' markets and had no real planning behind it.
Having multiple generic fantasy settings is indeed a bad thing, because there is only a limited market for them, and having one occupy that limited market will make them more money than having three in that market will, given the costs of producing the additional books. Indeed, the additional books may not even turn a profit, and even if they did, there were far better things they could have been doing with their time (and therefore money).
That way I don't HAVE to play FR for a so-called 'generic' setting.
You don't have to run anything.
It is a setting made for more intense role-players.
No more so than any other setting.
And Birthright is a horse of a different stripe altogether.
Birthright suffers from many of the issues inherent to the Council of Wyrms setting, in addition to the flaw that, fundamentally, a strongholds book would probably sell better than the Birthright campaign setting would.
I would much prefer to see a setting made by someone like you or I.
I wouldn't. I can make my own settings.
I want something I wouldn't make, not something I would.
I mean, sure, amateurs can do some great work, but thing is, a good designer is going to be better at it than some random schlub. If you look at who actually were the finalists in the contest, they weren't random schlubs. One runs GitP, after all.
1.) They will bring them back in some form
2.) we could just play Forgotten Realms.
1.) That's simply your speculation/wishes, not a fact.
2.) Of course, you can play any campaign setting you like, but Dragonlance is much different than FR (and all other campaign settings for that matter), but we all know what you're trying to do.
If they reset Dragonlance to the end of the WotL I'd buy it. If its set in the era after the WoS I would not unless it really grabs my attention. I personaly did not like any of the material from that era.
They could also add in the other continents as the 1st ed books mentioned there being several others on Krynn. But with the exception of Taladas none have ever seen print.
3 problems with dragonlance tinker gnomes, kender, and gully dwarves. Take those three things out and I might buy. Oh and the stupid retarded racial tensions that exist for no apperent reason.
3 problems with dragonlance tinker gnomes, kender, and gully dwarves.
The tinker gnomes of Hiteh on Taladas were bad-ass – The Companions of the Dead!
Never had a problem with them. Kender are basicly he 4.0 standard halfling with minor modifications. Tinker gnomes are houmorous and the gully dwarves are not really meant to be played they are background noise.
The racial tensions are not frivolous when you read the historys of the races. Its not a peaceful world by any standard.
The minor tweaks are making them all kleptos who happen to be immune to fear yeah thats a race that will survive long term. I prefer the races to be semi serious. Now I have no problem with devices and engineers. And in one of the worlds Im making their is a kind of Gnome that invents stuff, however their devices do not explode, or backfire. Oh and the Elven homeland should not be taken over by Minitaurs. I never liked the lore of dragonlance. Too often the good gods act like utter morons. Takhiss should not have been able to move the entire planet, and the dragon overlords should have been killed instantly. In essence I dont like the lore and history of the world.
What you fail to realize is that it isn't actually a good thing.
Doing what you're proposing is exactly what killed TSR. They printed a bunch of stuff which chewed up each others' markets and had no real planning behind it.
Having multiple generic fantasy settings is indeed a bad thing, because there is only a limited market for them, and having one occupy that limited market will make them more money than having three in that market will, given the costs of producing the additional books.
WotCs plans do not currently include printing any additional books for the settings. So there really isn't any market cannabilization as there was in the days of the FR boxed set and allk it's supporting books, and the Greyhawk boxed set and all its supporting books, etc.
Two books. A Campaign Guide and a Player's Guide. And an official adventure. That's it, 3 products per setting. They have stated that they wanted to do settings differently in 4e, presenting them as toolboxes rather than full blown product lines. (their words, not mine) That is, of course, on top of the whole "It's all core" philosophy they are operating under.
Of course that doesn't mean they can't/won't make additional products for the settings at a later date, but I wouldn't expect the entire lines of product you used to see (such as the FR regional books, etc. that we saw in 3e).
Under their current model, anyone who was really into Greyhawk probably hasn't bothered to buy the FR material anyway (and vice versa) and that's okay. There's lots of people who didn't buy every single 3e book that saw print. So you buy the settings pick out the parts you like for you campaign and move on.
If they were operating under the old model, i would agree, that multiple generic settings would be a bad thing since you'd be spreading your sales out among too many products.
Now all that being said... my one wish for a setting which will never come ot pass woul dbe for WotC to license Iron Kingdoms from Privateer Press to do as a 4e setting (since PP won't do it). Alas... it is just a dream...
Oh and the Elven homeland should not be taken over by Minitaurs. I never liked the lore of dragonlance. Too often the good gods act like utter morons. Takhiss should not have been able to move the entire planet, and the dragon overlords should have been killed instantly.
Oh yeah, I pretty much hate everything that came out of Dragonlance after the War of the lance era.
I think to reset Dragonlance to just after the cataclysm would be the way to go (fit in well with the PoL action).
My only concern with resetting the world that far is the lack of clerics at that time peroid. w/o healing it can be a very harsh place to be.
Bards, Shamans (Que Shu) and Warlords!
I think most of you who claim to hate the Forgotten Realms merely suffer from a problem of perspective.
No. I hate it (I don't claim to hate it. I hate it. Honest) because it is bland. It is also dull. It has tedious monsters, it has ridiculous NPCs. It has overly interventionist deities. It can't quite decide if it is super-high magic setting or not. The new edition is better than the old ones, but I still find it utterly unengaging and frankly inferior (for my needs) to what I can write myself.
D&D has, in its history, been associated with a rough half-dozen better settings than Forgotten Realms, and I'd rather see the return of the worst of these than more Forgotten Realms junk.
You don't even try to make the Realms your own.
Correct. The effort needed to make the Realms "my own" is greater than the effort needed to make my own setting from scratch, which is in turn greater than the effort needed to just run a good D&D setting such as Eberron, or even the old 3.5 edition Spelljammer.
If you have to abandon most of a setting just to run a D&D game, it could be argued that you are not, in fact, using that setting.
Do you think they'll do Planescape again, or is that so deeply woven into the fabric of 4e that it would be redundant?
Yeah (though they might expand in Dragon).
Oh yeah, I pretty much hate everything that came out of Dragonlance after the War of the lance era.
I think to reset Dragonlance to just after the cataclysm would be the way to go (fit in well with the PoL action).
Doesnt solve the entire race of kleptomaniacs problem though. I liked the first three books but the two atempts at a DL campaign failed utterly because of tinker gnomes, high powered npcs and especially kender.
Doesnt solve the entire race of kleptomaniacs problem though.
Well as I ban Hobbits…I mean Halfings in my campaigns, unless it's a Middle-Earth or Dark Sun one, you can simply state that Kender are not available as a PC race.
Out of curiosity which high powered NPC's?
And it's the DM's fault if he/she throws in overpowered NPCs that overshadow the party or what have you.
As an odd monkey-wrench ... what's to say the next world book isn't something like Dark*Matter or Star Frontiers? ;)
Out of curiosity which high powered NPC's? Depending on the time line there arent really that many.
Again the gnomes are background noise but not much else.
Our dm had us running into the companions of the lance and such. As well as the wizards towers, and knightly orders haveing way too much say so over what characters in those orginizations did. Like I said the books were okay as a setting not so much. The gnomes may have been background noise but I thought it was stupid how often their stuff blew up.
Most of which were retired after the war. At least as far as the books were concerned.
Wizards had to go to the towers for their final exam. I may be missing sonthing from your post.
The Solamnic knights after the war were in the highest regard they had been under sense the cataclysm. They also had captured a vast amount of teritory during the war. Having them hold sway is kind of expected. Or are you refering to the Measure? Again it was somthing that was a part of the order.
The game didnt last long but I just didnt enjoy it. Wizards shouldnt have to be part of a guild. The knightly order shoudnt have any power in regards to my character, kender and tinker gnomes just should not exist. The books were alright not the best not the worsed its just as a setting dragonlance just seems to be lacking at least to me. To me its a lot like old forgotten realms too detailed and too much lore attached to it for the players and dm to get very creative with it.
Although I can't decide whether it should take place after the Sundering, the Unsundering, or the Resundering.
I really Dont think it would get much support. But Ive been wrong before.
All it needs is two books and a small adventure.
Besides, Prince Of Persia games sell like mad. I'm sure alot of Prince Of Persia gamers play D&D, and vice versa.
It would be Arabian nights fantasy. It's sheer uniqueness alone would probably sell it. (Just look at the mad success of Eberron)
People bought into Oriental Adventures
I'm sure they'd buy Al Qadim.Maztica though wouldn't sell. There's just not that much interest in South American Indians.
I personally feel there's a lot to offer from TES, but the biggest problem is the translation of races and how they work.
Still, I'd like that too. And most of the cultures are very unique and have a lot to offer.
Thats what I have said before. Anything after the war of the twins novels is useless to me.
My only concern with resetting the world that far is the lack of clerics at that time peroid. w/o healing it can be a very harsh place to be.
Thankfully, clerics are no longer necessary what with the advent of warlords, bards, shamans, and (in due time) artificers, and with Cure Disease, Remove Affliction, and Raise Dead being rituals. You can just reset it back to that time and remove clerics or the entire divine power source if you're so inclined, with the other leader classes and healing rituals being new inventions of a world adapting to life without divine healing.
Thankfully, clerics are no longer necessary what with the advent of warlords, bards, shamans, and (in due time) artificers, and with Cure Disease, Remove Affliction, and Raise Dead being rituals. You can just reset it back to that time and remove clerics or the entire divine power source if you're so inclined, with the other leader classes and healing rituals being new inventions of a world adapting to life without divine healing.
This I dont agree with. Id reimagine the world entirley to allow divine characters, why because I hate anything that limits character options in a game. If they do DL they need to find a way to make it interesting while allowing all the classes, and races into the setting as well as adding new material. I never understood why there was no divine magic for a time anyway.
This I dont agree with. Id reimagine the world entirley to allow divine characters, why because I hate anything that limits character options in a game. If they do DL they need to find a way to make it interesting while allowing all the classes, and races into the setting as well as adding new material. I never understood why there was no divine magic for a time anyway.
There was no divine magic because there were no gods. They all said "screw you" and left Krynn to burn as punishment.
To be fair, it's not just the green crowd. I am decidedly Not Greentm, and I fully support Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars. Renewable energy is better in the long term, and Hydrogen is a LOT cheaper per gallon.
'ept for one you have to pay for all the collateral damage after those cars crash, and their "clean, hydrogen fuel" blows the **** out of a large area. Lulz.
DISCLAIMER: Fenrir7139 is not trying to start an argument; he could care less about the subject, he's just being a dick for the fun of it. Carry on.
There was no divine magic because there were no gods. They all said "screw you" and left Krynn to burn as punishment.
In 4e, divine magic exists because of faith, not gods. It doesn't matter if the gods believe in you, just if you believe in them (or your cause) vehemently enough.
'ept for one you have to pay for all the collateral damage after those cars crash, and their "clean, hydrogen fuel" blows the **** out of a large area. Lulz.
DISCLAIMER: Fenrir7139 is not trying to start an argument; he could care less about the subject, he's just being a dick for the fun of it. Carry on.
That's why you get compartmentalized containers. You don't need much hydrogen to power them. Only a few Liters/Gallons. Hydrogen is a lot more efficient than gasoline, letting you have a MUCH smaller tank while getting the same (or better) range that you currently do.
Not every car is a Pinto.
There was no divine magic because there were no gods. They all said "screw you" and left Krynn to burn as punishment.
Eh Id rule them as in, mainly because I love the new divine classes.
In 4e, divine magic exists because of faith, not gods. It doesn't matter if the gods believe in you, just if you believe in them (or your cause) vehemently enough.
He wasn't asking how it would be in 4e, he was asking why it was that way in earlier editions.
In fact, the various eras in Dragonlance could be the whole "shtick" for the setting - here's the world, now here's five different eras you can play in, with relevant rules / restrictions.
Early Dragonlance could be kinda cool, actually. No divine classes to start, but as the world starts rediscovering the gods, players are allowed to multiclass into divine classes and go from there.
In fact, the various eras in Dragonlance could be the whole "shtick" for the setting - here's the world, now here's five different eras you can play in, with relevant rules / restrictions.
I dont see the reason to really restrict player choices though. To me campaign worlds should open up new options not close options off.
I dont see the reason to really restrict player choices though. To me campaign worlds should open up new options not close options off.
I've experienced (I know, anecdotal) that sometimes limits/restrictions can heighten a campaign.
I've experienced (I know, anecdotal) that sometimes limits/restrictions can heighten a campaign.
Well thats something to discuss,talk over. I have as well but only when the dm clearly states what the restrictions are and why. Also if the dm is cutting out certain options then I expect other options to replace them.
Lets go with more planes stuff---the shadowfell, and feywild are good for adventures levels 3 to 30. Set it up so that you can apply the information to any adventure setting. For those that miss Planescape, include a long chapter on Sigil (which is really all that is left of the setting).
Well we are already getting a book on the Elemental Chaos (perhaps including the Abyss). So we will probably get a Feywild book as well. Open Grave also had a fair bit of Shadowfell stuff though who knows we may get one just devoted to the Shadowfell.
As for Sigil, we are getting a chapter devoted to it in DMG2.
Of course, you can play any campaign setting you like, but Dragonlance is much different than FR (and all other campaign settings for that matter), but we all know what you're trying to do.
They're actually quite similar thematically.
Eberron, Council of Wyrms, Dark Sun, ect. all are very thematically distinctive. Eberron is magepunk, Dark Sun has a very post-apocalyptic/survivalist flavor, and Council of Wyrms turns the assumptions of D&D on its head with you being the powerful monster, and humans (piddly things by comparison) being villanious. Savage things, really, wearing the pelts of other sentient beings. What sort of terrible creature would do such a thing? Clearly they're a bunch of psychopaths.
The differences between Greyhawk, FR, and Dragonlance are tiny by comparison.
Now, I'm not saying they would (or should) bring back Council of Wyrms, but I'm saying that unless you're distinctive, there's not much of a selling point, and you won't get the same sales.
I think there has been so much speculation about dark sun, that the devs are going to go ahead and do dark sun. They know it will be very well recieved. This also fits with psionics coming out in phb 3.
I think Dark Sun is so speculated about because it was given an article in Dragon.
WotCs plans do not currently include printing any additional books for the settings. So there really isn't any market cannabilization as there was in the days of the FR boxed set and allk it's supporting books, and the Greyhawk boxed set and all its supporting books, etc.
Thing is, the Greyhawk guide is competing with the FR guide, pretty much directly, as they have the same theme - a high fantasy kitchen sink world. There's only a limited market for that, and the number of people who'd buy two such books is small, as is the number of people who'd buy the Greyhawk setting but not the FR setting.
I haven't done any particular market research on it, but I know the group "buy both" is pretty small. That would leave the subset "Would buy Greyhawk but not FR", but how big of a group is that, really? I can't see it as being all that large.
Compared to other things they could spend their resources on, it seems like something of a waste to me.
Actually, I'd like it if they made a Tamriel Setting. They'd need to partner with Bethesda to do that though.
Why would you ever partner with a company that bad?
They make one game, and its not even a very good one.
They're actually quite similar thematically.
Why would you ever partner with a company that bad?
They make one game, and its not even a very good one.
Funny, because pretty much everything you said up until then I agreed with (as well as all your other points in the this thread, though I would beg to differ in many other threads).
I wonder what this "One Game" you speak of is? Bethseda has made several games, and most of them are golden. I would have to say that Morrowind was and is far better than Oblivion, but Oblivion is an amazing game as well. Their precursors are fun, though the play-style is old school and thus not up to date with the pace and feel that gamers today like. I would also suggest to try Fallout 3, for it is equally as well done, even though it is their first entry into the Fallout saga, and thus Bethesda didn't create the mythos themselves.
Tamriel, at least, is quite enough differentiated from the "standard" settings of Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms to overcome it's relatively small racial stock, but each and every of it's cultures are unique with a powerful history. Also, remember, that TES: Arena, has its origins in a D&D campaign (partially...)
The Elder Scrolls series, especially Morrowind and Oblivion, are open to some of the most free and open video game world in existence; they are probably closest ANY CRPG has gotten to emulate the freedom of D&D and it's P&PRPG cousins.
Or maby like in my case hate it from bad GM experiances 15-20 years ago. The reason doesn't matter. Many still hate the setting.
But I can assure you one thing...more people LIKE the Forgotten Realms than dislike the Forgotten Realms. This can be proven by the very fact that the VAST majority of Wizards of the Coast novels are all FR based and that it is the only campaign setting that has been supported in every edition since it came out in 2nd Edition. If everyone disliked FR so much then it would not make Wizards the money that it does and they would stop supporting it. Think about all the campaign settings which have come and gone. Why do you think they stop supporting a specific campaign setting? Because it was hugely popular and made tons of cash? I don't think so.
I absolutely love Morrowind. I recently started playing again when I discovered the Morrowind Graphics extender, especially infinite view distance aspect.
You should also try out Tamriel Rebuilt and a number of the regional remeshes (they're a lot better than the full-scale world remeshes, which tend to look odd, or are broken).
That said, the biggest problem is the proliferation of subraces over races. There's only 2 races in FRPG, and there will probably only be one or two in EPG. Not only do we have the completely unique Argonians, the various elven races actually feel a bit different from their D&D counterparts. House Dark Elves (Dunmer) are like Drow, only above ground... and also with the problem of being very much like D&D Humans in their nature of versatility of choices. Then again, that could just be a window into their society, and thus their racial preferences actually are quite a bit different. Ashlanders are like the Shadar-kai almost to the tee. This provides a problem, in that we need to make a choice between the two for the actual race. Both are great as arcane casters and can do well in certain divine and primal directions, so its not so much of a difference in choice of base race.
Khajiits are Shifters, both varieties. The kind that appear in Morrowind, at least, are Razorclaws. But it's just as easy to reflavour Longtooth Shifters from Werewolfish to bigger, bulkier feline (that live mostly only in Elsweyr).
Wood Elves (Bosmer) are Elves, High Elves (Altmer) are Eladrin; that makes it easier this edition around to transliterate.
As I see it, Bretons are Half-Elves, in both backstory (descendants of Human and Elven stock) and their affinity for the arcane (and their Bardic traditions). Nords could be Goliaths, though they'd need to get some winter-themed racial feats to fix the difference; Imperials are just normal humans.
Orcs are reflavoured Half-Orcs, but Redguards are a bit tougher to place: their role is that of big guy/brutal fighter, without being any bigger than an Imperial. I'd almost say completely overhaul Gnoll or Dwarf and make them look like dark-skinned humans... This would probably be new race #2, after Argonians, because of its extreme difficulty to place.
The reality of Bethesda licensing their world through Wizards? Probably slim. It would be awesome though.
I wonder what this "One Game" you speak of is? Bethseda has made several games, and most of them are golden. I would have to say that Morrowind was and is far better than Oblivion, but Oblivion is an amazing game as well. Their precursors are fun, though the play-style is old school and thus not up to date with the pace and feel that gamers today like. I would also suggest to try Fallout 3, for it is equally as well done, even though it is their first entry into the Fallout saga, and thus Bethesda didn't create the mythos themselves.
That is their one game. It has many names - Fallout 3, Oblivion, Morrowind...
Which is the problem. If you don't like that game, you aren't going to like anything the company makes, because they're all pretty similar ultimately.
And yes, they didn't create the Fallout franchise, and it shows, according to what I've read from people who don't get paid by Bethesda to put ads on their websites - which means pretty much no gaming journalist, but you know, such is the nature of gaming journalism. Its their right to do so, and its my right not to give them my hard earned dollar on the basis of what I've read.
The game simply does not appeal to me.
Let's see any of these instead(pretty much in this order):
Darksun
Spelljammer
Greyhawk
Planescape
Ravenloft
Am I forgetting any?
Let the Realms die already! As a DM and a player, I hope to never see FR again. I've been playing since 1980, so I've seen more than my fair share of the Realms (I prefer Greyhawk over FR anyway).
Let's see any of these instead(pretty much in this order):
Darksun
Spelljammer
Greyhawk
Planescape
Ravenloft
Am I forgetting any?
I can understand why people hate the realms. I used to until the current version of the realms. Id like to see all those except grey hawk. Ive had enough of seeing grey hawk gods as core. I would have been even happier with 4e if they had changed all the grey hawk gods to something better in the current version. The current realms is similiar to the old realms but changed for the better.
That said, the biggest problem is the proliferation of subraces over races. There's only 2 races in FRPG, and there will probably only be one or two in EPG.
The reality of Bethesda licensing their world through Wizards? Probably slim. It would be awesome though.
Easiest way I see of doing it would be to grab Arena (or Daggerfall), use the races as presented in there, because that was the developers house D&D setting from their tabletop game and it changed over the course of the series. I recall a while back someone made a tabletop conversion of TES using a d6 system, IIRC.
And if Hasbro stop collaboration with Atari for computer games, we may see some collaboration between Bethesda and WOTC.
Edit: Just found it on my hdd. It uses Fudge and is current up to Morrowind: Bloodmoon.
But I can assure you one thing...more people LIKE the Forgotten Realms than dislike the Forgotten Realms. This can be proven by the very fact that the VAST majority of Wizards of the Coast novels are all FR based and that it is the only campaign setting that has been supported in every edition since it came out in 2nd Edition. If everyone disliked FR so much then it would not make Wizards the money that it does and they would stop supporting it. Think about all the campaign settings which have come and gone. Why do you think they stop supporting a specific campaign setting? Because it was hugely popular and made tons of cash? I don't think so.
The overwhelming evidence is that a vast majority of people don't particularly care about the Realms. Based on surveys taken at Conventions and online and on book sales at a LGS, FR represents about 5% of the D&D playing market. It's just possible that FR fans, being particularly rabid, buy nearly everything produced for the setting. But 50% of games are homebrews, and FR makes up about 5% of the total. So there's no real reason to provide more support than it already has, particularly since with a generic fantasy setting like the Realms most of the core material (written for a generic fantasy game) will fit in with limited modification.
That is their one game. It has many names - Fallout 3, Oblivion, Morrowind...
Which is the problem. If you don't like that game, you aren't going to like anything the company makes, because they're all pretty similar ultimately.
And yes, they didn't create the Fallout franchise, and it shows, according to what I've read from people who don't get paid by Bethesda to put ads on their websites - which means pretty much no gaming journalist, but you know, such is the nature of gaming journalism. Its their right to do so, and its my right not to give them my hard earned dollar on the basis of what I've read.
The game simply does not appeal to me.
As a person that's been a fan of Fallout for 10 years or so, I think Bethesda did a great job. And I'm definitely not getting paid to say that.
As a person that's been a fan of Fallout for 10 years or so, I think Bethesda did a great job. And I'm definitely not getting paid to say that.
I completely agree. It's not perfect - not by a long shot - but it's an excellent game. If Bethesda can pull its head out of its ass for the Broken Steel DLC, they may be able to push further toward "as fun as the old ones."
Different, yes (and I understand that it helps that I've not played Bethesda's other games, with the same engine), but it gets the feel down pretty well, and it's as enthralling as its older cousins.
Thing is, the Greyhawk guide is competing with the FR guide, pretty much directly, as they have the same theme - a high fantasy kitchen sink world. There's only a limited market for that, and the number of people who'd buy two such books is small, as is the number of people who'd buy the Greyhawk setting but not the FR setting.
I haven't done any particular market research on it, but I know the group "buy both" is pretty small. That would leave the subset "Would buy Greyhawk but not FR", but how big of a group is that, really? I can't see it as being all that large.
Compared to other things they could spend their resources on, it seems like something of a waste to me.
I agree that releasing both FR and Greyhawk/Dragonlance in succession would result in a very small market spectrum likely to purchase both, however, if there were a longer timeframe between releases I believe it would significantly increase that spectrum of customers. Given say 4-5 years between the settings should reduce the cannibalization significantly, imo. I have no data to back up my claim, but I'd be willing to wager that the majority of the D&D fanbase enjoy high-fantasy kitchen sink style settings. Therefore, it makes sense to me that multiple settings in that style would be appreciated if they can be spaced far enough apart.
I'd be very interested in you thoughts on my premise though TD.
The overwhelming evidence is that a vast majority of people don't particularly care about the Realms. Based on surveys taken at Conventions and online and on book sales at a LGS, FR represents about 5% of the D&D playing market. It's just possible that FR fans, being particularly rabid, buy nearly everything produced for the setting. But 50% of games are homebrews, and FR makes up about 5% of the total. So there's no real reason to provide more support than it already has, particularly since with a generic fantasy setting like the Realms most of the core material (written for a generic fantasy game) will fit in with limited modification.
Don't get me wrong I don't want there to only be FR stuff ( I personally like the Realms, I was defending it because there was a lot of negative posts as if it wasn't popular what so ever).
My personal hope is they bring back Planescape in some meaningful way. It is my personal favorite setting. Let's just hope that whatever they choose it is something very different and something interesting. I also think they need to support the campaign settings a tad bit more.
My personal hope is they bring back Planescape in some meaningful way.
Planescape has been folded (and Ravenloft/Spelljammer) into the PoL standard 4th Ed setting.
Here's another thing against Greyhawk and Dragonlance - not much to draw upon for new races / classes. Dragonlance would grant us back Tinker Gnomes, but most people either prefer the Færie-type Gnomes or didn't like Gnomes at all to begin with. But a majority of the races in both those settings are core PoL races, and Greyhawk at least would give us only Monsters updated to races from the NPC monsters in the MM.
Dragonlance actually has several options.
It could modify dragonborn to draconians OR it could give us draconians AND since they also have dragonspawn, modify them to be dragonborn OR dragonspawn as a race as well.
They also in 3.5e had Centaurs as a player race, Irda obviously also come to mind (or we could just have all the ogre races).
They have Minotaurs, but not in a source book as of yet, so there's another.
I think DL has a LOT more racial options than just Tinkers.
Dragonlance also now, if they DON'T retro and move forward into the fifth age, have to figure out what to do about Mystic classes, as well as the Nobles and Mariners.
Then you also have the Knights of Solamnia, Neraka, and Steel, which could become it's own knight class with differing paragon paths.
Wizards of High Sorcery probably would all be Paragon Paths.
There's literally TONS of various Paragon paths just awaiting to be made as well.
Dragonlance gives a plentitude of racial and class options.
Possibly. But I hate FR because of ELMUNCHKIN and Driz. Yes I would like to see DL as a 4.o setting, but I would like to see a brand new campaign as well.
See I see Tannis half elven and them as worse then any of the FR characters. I just hate how every race hated every other race in dl. Also how stupid the good gods were. It seemed to me that the evil gods were geniuses while the good gods were total morons, incapable of even basic thought processes and patterns.
The knightly orders are all just a bunch of SOBS. Seriously why anyone would want to join them I dont know. To me Ebaron is a much more interesting setting. Heck even new forgotten realms is more interesting.
Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance are by FAR the two most popular settings. While Forgotten Realms was making WOTC money, Dragonlance was supporting it's own gaming product line and had many successful novels.
In comparison, Darksun merited an issue of Dragon magazine. Most of the other settings people mention here can only be found in battered old boxed sets from the 80's.
Repeat after me— What happened in the 80's stays in the 80's. We'd all be better off to forget the whole decade.
Yes I am aware that DL came out in the 80's as well, but as it actually managed to survived such a terrible period in human history, it can safely be said to be an exception to the tule.
Really, though, I would have liked for them to just let the settings die and made a brand new, traditional fantasy setting. One that doesn't seem violated whenever 4ed rules are applied to it.
Am I the only one who hates the knightly orders, the towers of sorcery, DL minatours?
Yes. :P
In comparison, Darksun merited an issue of Dragon magazine. Most of the other settings people mention here can only be found in battered old boxed sets from the 80's.
Repeat after me— What happened in the 80's stays in the 80's. We'd all be better off to forget the whole decade.
No. :P
Especially since the most popular suggestions, Dark Sun and Planescape, and my personal fave Birthright, are form the 90's. But the 80's stuff is still quality too.
I don't want any new settings until they've updated the old ones.
Yes. :P
No. :P
Especially since the most popular suggestions, Dark Sun and Planescape, and my personal fave Birthright, are form the 90's. But the 80's stuff is still quality too.
I don't want any new settings until they've updated the old ones.
Ah...
Well that teaches me to open my mouth.
And unless I am way off in my remembering, 3.5 DL was done by Sovereign Press not by WotC (That is to say Weiss/hickman did it not WotC).
The Campaign Setting was done by WOTC, but the support books were done by Sovereign Press. Hence it supported it's own product line. Ravenloft was licensed, but pretty much went nowhere. The other settings are merely memories which are discussed willfully by the older players.
The other settings are merely memories which are discussed willfully by the older players.
I wouldn't say just older players. I have been playing since I was 10, which is only a decade ago, so certainly not during AD&D and earlier times and I certainly would like to see Dark Sun and Planescape (especially more Sigil goodness, can never have enough), and wouldn't mind seeing Ravenloft (be fine with just a horror book too though).
The only more modern setting I have any like of is Eberron.
The Campaign Setting was done by WOTC, but the support books were done by Sovereign Press. Hence it supported it's own product line. Ravenloft was licensed, but pretty much went nowhere. The other settings are merely memories which are discussed willfully by the older players.
Well the only old setting Id buy would be darksun. Id rather see something new then the same old garbage rehashed again and again. Frankly I would rather have seen Eberon or an entirley new setting as the first one for 4e. I will be disapointed if the next one is not Darksun or an entirley new setting. Id be happier with an entirley new setting.
Let the Realms die already! As a DM and a player, I hope to never see FR again. I've been playing since 1980, so I've seen more than my fair share of the Realms (I prefer Greyhawk over FR anyway).
Let's see any of these instead(pretty much in this order):
Darksun
Spelljammer
Greyhawk
Planescape
Ravenloft
Am I forgetting any?
hmmmm....
Dragonlance
Oriental
Al-Qadim (Both this and Oriental was attached to FR in 2ed, so likely they do it again, gives us something 'new' and pleases the FR crowd at the same time)
Maztika (Albeit it is kind of MIA at the moment)
Birthright
and Mystara I guess
Sums up all the official DnD worlds over the years I believe, albeit a few other have been mentioned briefly or indirectly in other products.