Then I hear there going to be in PHB3???
PHB3 are you serious? another book I have to buy?
Then again its not like they are obligated to bring it back at all. Every eddition changes the class/race line up. Monk was in 1e vanished in 2e and a horrible horrible class apeared in 3e and 3.5 it was either broken or underpowered depending on how you built it and what feats you did.
If you really need to play one a couple of 3rd party publishers have their own versions.
who said you HAD to buy anything. plus you have obviously not been paying attention to wotc buisnuiss plan. if you looked at the name of the first phb it said a book for marital, arcane, and divine. phb2 says primal, arcane, and divine. Monk is a ki class, it was NEVER going to be in phb2. not to mention that they said they would release new series of core books every year, so there will be a phb 3 and a 4 and a 5 and 6 ect ect. phb3 will not just give things like monk but maybe psionics or maybe shadow classes.
Bear in mind, Will, that we've been seeing 3 power sources per book. PHBI was Martial/Arcane/Divine, 2 is Arcane/Divine/Primal. It's distinctly possible that 3 will be Psionic/Shadow/Ki. Odds are with Psionic as the one-shot (ie, four classes, but none in PHB4).
Thats true. Hadnt thought of that. I was thinking it would be 2 new sources and maybe some new primal classes.
I'm seeing character class leaks from DDXP 09 and I see no monks :-(
Then I hear there going to be in PHB3???
PHB3 are you serious? another book I have to buy?
Yes, there is no Monk love. WotC clearly "hates" the Monk because they are not releasing it when you would like it. I mean, they must hate EVERY product that will be coming out after 2009.
Sarcasm aside, I'm guessing that they are taking the time to get the mechanics just right so that the Monk will be unique, and not just a mish-mash of a million abilities like it was previously. As well, WotC has a new way of releasing classes, which is by power source. It just so happens that the PHB 2 has Primal, not Ki.
Yes, you will need to buy another book. Isn't it terrible that you will actually have to *GASP!* pay the company in order to get a product they made? If you don't want the PHB2, then don't get it. Just wait for the PHB3.
Bear in mind, Will, that we've been seeing 3 power sources per book. PHBI was Martial/Arcane/Divine, 2 is Arcane/Divine/Primal. It's distinctly possible that 3 will be Psionic/Shadow/Ki. Odds are with Psionic as the one-shot (ie, four classes, but none in PHB4).
I hope the book with the Monk is Ki/Martial and maybe Elemental.
That way, classes like Samurai (Martial) and WuJen (Ki? Elemental? Primal?) can be in sensible catagories. The Ki power source should include Non-Asian classes, possibly focusing on aura magic.
The Monk could be Martial or Ki, depending on whether its martial-art flavor is naturalistic or fantastic.
I just feel like the monk class should have been out already and that by releasing three different PHB is just a way WOTC is milking more money from me.
Then do not buy them. How else are they to release further classes if not in some type of format? It is a little unrealistic to expect them to release every class wanted by all the fans in one book. Third had the "Complete" series of books as well as a PHB II. This time around they decided to just stick to the PHB format. I think it is an excellent idea.
Yes.
PHB3 are you serious?
Yes.
another book I have to buy?
No.
On related points:
There is going to be a PHB each year of the lifespan of 4th edition. Similarly, there will be a new DMG and a new Monster Manual each year as well.
I assume WotC reserves the right to NOT publish a new one in any given year. I also assume that the PHBs may likely consolidate classes from other sources (although PHB2 only consolidates classes explicitly previewed in Dragon), as well as races, powers, feats, and rituals.
There will also be a new setting book set (Campaign Guide + Player's Guide) each year.
- 2008 = Forgotten Realms.
- 2009 = Eberron.
- 2010 = ?
This is, in my opinion, better than previous release approaches because it is more predictable. And for those who are on semi-limited budgets, allow for a more planned resource expansion approach. For those of us on semi-unlimited budgets, it simply means we know in advance three to five of the books we are purchasing each year, with an assumed one-book-per-month option beyond these predicted releases.
Personally, I would prefer WoTC takes the time to release 9 fun, unique, and fairly well balanced classes instead of rushing to publish as many old ones as possible with only half of them being good.
The barbarian is primal, so its not too far of a stretch.
Its probably not happening, but it would be nice if Ki and Psionic power sources were merged. That way Ki isnt the 'asian powersource' and the more mystical monk is merely one showing off psionic abilities.
The barbarian is primal, so its not too far of a stretch.
.... Ki (also chi, Qi, and Kiai) refers to the energy inherent in the body, while Psionic refers to untapped mental abilities.
As for the subject of Ki, well there has been rumblings both from the community and a little from WoTC that it will be less the "asian power source" and more like soul/spirit energy. So stuff like Incarnum may be integrated.
[Ki] will be less the "asian power source" and more like soul/spirit energy.
Okay, someone has to explain to me how this isn't "asian power source".
I just feel like the monk class should have been out already and that by releasing three different PHB is just a way WOTC is milking more money from me.
Yes, because every other game by every other company has had every single thing ever in one book, and if they don't, they never make you pay if you want optional material. WotC is clearly evil as they are a company that actually expects you to pay if you want to buy option books.
I just feel like the monk class should have been out already and that by releasing three different PHB is just a way WOTC is milking more money from me.
That's it...you figured them out! WotC has your credit card number, and will automatically deduct every time a new book comes out. Also, WotC obviously didn't get your list of "You Will Print THESE Classes Next" letter. Better luck next time. WotC is "milking more money" from you just like Sony is milking money from you by not including every possible game for the PS3 when you buy the console.
Martial is the magic of the body
Psionic is the magic of the mind
Ki is the magic of the soul.
I have the core books. That's all. I'm borrowing a friend's AV (until I can get a hold on one myself - it's very good) and Realms Player's Guide (I'm undecided about this). I may buy the PHB2 if the stuff in there looks good.
No-one is forcing me to buy anything. If I like it I'll buy. In fact, the thing I love about this game is that you don't need anything other than core rules, imagination and friends. If that doesn't work for you then no amount of extra material is going to help.
I like new books; I enjoy extra options; I like that WOTC are producing more of this stuff. I'm not going to buy it all.
On Monks - as that's the topic
. I liked monks. They were fun to play in 3.5 but (as already mentioned) too hard to make work in all but a few directions. I'm sure they will appear in DnD4! Don't panic 
.Okay, someone has to explain to me how this isn't "asian power source".
Presumably, non-asians also have souls.
Ugh, power sources. Just drop them. They do nothing and mean nothing. Divine doesn't have a monopoly on healing, arcane isn't the only one that can control nature, and martial is creating magical effects all over the place.
I've yet to see an example of this that didn't require utterly torturing the definition of 'magical' and being willfully ignorant of the intended flavor of the power.
CrS: Okay, someone has to explain to me how this isn't "asian power source".
Hopefully, some Asian concepts wont be Ki (such as Martial Samurai). Conversely, some Ki concepts wont be Asian (Incarnum? Aura effects?).
I hope some concepts wont become a new class. For example, Id like to see the PH4 have a Ninja section explaining how to use the Rogue and recommend which powers, feats, and Paragon path to take to build a Ninja.
This is what monks will be like in 4E.
-Joni
Presumably, non-asians also have souls.
No way! THIS is what the monk will look like in 4E!
I love this thread!
No way! THIS is what the monk will look like in 4E!
Hilarious I'm in a 3.5e game where I play a monk named Adrian.
A monk that can also use limited ranged spells would be fun to play, as would a transforming monk.
I would like to see the ki classes be similar to those seen in Jade Empire (yes i know asian).
A monk that can also use limited ranged spells would be fun to play, as would a transforming monk.
A transforming monk?! How dangerous would that be?!
OK...I'll stop...I promise.
I would like to see the ki classes be similar to those seen in Jade Empire (yes i know asian).
A monk that can also use limited ranged spells would be fun to play, as would a transforming monk.
That would best be accomplished via multiclassing, I suspect.
OK...I'll stop...I promise.
On the contrary, by all means continue. . .
That would best be accomplished via multiclassing, I suspect.
A monk multiclassed druid? Nasty combo! I'd love to see it in print.
I'm seeing character class leaks from DDXP 09 and I see no monks :-(
Then I hear there going to be in PHB3???
PHB3 are you serious? another book I have to buy?
I'm super serial.
A monk multiclassed druid? Nasty combo! I'd love to see it in print.
"I got yer animal-style kung fu right HERE!" Of course, you won't be able to use your monk powers while Wild Shaped, but hey, that's life.
"I got yer animal-style kung fu right HERE!" Of course, you won't be able to use your monk powers while Wild Shaped, but hey, that's life.
Or...or...a monk that multiclassed into druid. The other way around, as it were. Gives me the warm and fuzzies (no pun intended).
Hopefully, some Asian concepts wont be Ki (such as Martial Samurai). Conversely, some Ki concepts wont be Asian (Incarnum? Aura effects?).
Class concepts don't have to be Asian, sure. But the idea of 'spirit' energy you can channel and control is an Asian concept. Heck, that's what "Ki" means; Spirit. So how is "Spirit energy" NOT an "asian power source"?
In the same way, how can Arcane NOT be the magic power source?
In the same way, how can Divine NOT be the deities power source?
Class concepts don't have to be Asian, sure. But the idea of 'spirit' energy you can channel and control is an Asian concept. Heck, that's what "Ki" means; Spirit. So how is "Spirit energy" NOT an "asian power source"?
Are you saying that using the power of the spirit is an entirely Asian concept?
In the same way, how can Arcane NOT be the magic power source?
In the same way, how can Divine NOT be the deities power source?
So, you are saying:
How can Spirit NOT be the Asian power source?
To be frank, the more I hear people talk about an "Asian power source", I get a progressivly worse headache.
I would love to see the Ki Power Source steal all the good flavor from Incarnum - focusing the power of your own soul and the souls of your ancestors seems like a good way to reach beyond merely being the Wuxia Power Source.
If they do make it jsut the "Asian power source", I will be throughly disappointed. Every other class can potentially be from any other culture. I would hate if they saddled one power source with assumed flavour.
But the idea of 'spirit' energy you can channel and control is an Asian concept.
Dude?
Dude.
WHAT?!
What, have you got something to prove me wrong?
I'm starting to think I'm missing something.
Yeah...
What, have you got something to prove me wrong?
I'm starting to think I'm missing something.
You apparently missed the last six major discussions on the topic that I'm aware of.
Yeah...
What, have you got something to prove me wrong?
I'm starting to think I'm missing something.
Aenima isn't just a song by Tool. It's a concept from ancient Greece and beyond; essentially the animating force of the body -- a soul if you will. And philosophers considered tapping into this was what set men apart as Heroes. not to mention a lot of the souls as power things that surrounded witches.
But a power source? I've never seen any Greek legends refer to the spirit as such. If such exist, please reference.
If you're arguing that other cultures than "The Far East" had a concept of the spirit, I don't disagree.
But a power source? I've never seen any Greek legends refer to the spirit as such. If such exist, please reference.
Um, the Celtics and other Shamanistic cultures all believe(d) in the power of the spirit. If you take a look at the Pentagram, each of the five points represents one of the "Elements" and are as followed:
Earth
Water
Wind
Fire
Spirit
Actually, the idea of the spirit/soul being a source of power is a very common theme throughout history, and the world.
Just don't think of these IRL things in gaming terms though - because different things in DnD, when applied to real life, are actually the same thing. Like, for instance, Shaman, Druid, and Witch Doctor - all different names for typically the same thing.
Um, the Celtics and other Shamanistic cultures all believe(d) in the power of the spirit. If you take a look at the Pentagram, each of the five points represents one of the "Elements" and are as followed:
Earth
Water
Wind
Fire
Spirit
Actually, the idea of the spirit/soul being a source of power is a very common theme throughout history, and the world.
Just don't think of these IRL things in gaming terms though - because different things in DnD, when applied to real life, are actually the same thing. Like, for instance, Shaman, Druid, and Witch Doctor - all different names for typically the same thing.
No, this is not the same.
Yes, you have the correct five elements (Aether was occasionally substituted). No, you are missing the point. Shamans and such commune with the spirits of nature, of ancestors, and of the "spirit world". Using your soul to power abilities is an Eastern concept that has slowly been assimilated in the West.
The manitou were spirits with which some American Indian Tribes spoke with.
The Celtics spoke of spirits, which modern times often call "fairies".
The druid belief was that we are composed of mind, body and spirit (Christianity likewise believes this), with spirit acting as the bonding agent between body and mind, rather than an elevated or qualitatively different state of being.
That you can use your own spirit to create things is a unique Eastern idea.
I just did. Maybe I should have said 'philosophers at the time'.
Can't find it.
I would love to see the Ki Power Source steal all the good flavor from Incarnum - focusing the power of your own soul and the souls of your ancestors seems like a good way to reach beyond merely being the Wuxia Power Source.
Translating "wuxia" as "your spirit", I'd say this doesn't change Ki at all. Channeling your ancestor's spirits in addition is a bit of a twist, but only because that's usually necromancy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animistic
---------------------------
To Summerize: Aritsotle, Native Americans and Jesus the Christ are Far Easterners.
Edit: Necromancy! Of yes, the type of classical magic that's all abut using souls for power! Hint: Necromancy doens't just mean the undead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul#Socrates_and_Plato
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animistic
---------------------------
To Summerize: Aritsotle, Native Americans and Jesus the Christ are Far Easterners.
No, they arn't. Because soon the Semantic Theatre will start, and we will find out why that isn't the right kind of "spirit". It's pretty much hopeless, as the definition of "spirit" that is seeming to be used is "spirit in the context of only Asian sources".
No, this is not the same.
Yes, you have the correct five elements (Aether was occasionally substituted). No, you are missing the point. Shamans and such commune with the spirits of nature, of ancestors, and of the "spirit world". Using your soul to power abilities is an Eastern concept that has slowly been assimilated in the West.
And I suppose it has crept into the culture of the Yanomamo as well?
You do know that Ancestor worship is/has been common in many asian cultures - and that spiritualists often commune with them as well?
Actually, I think you missed the point here. Shamans do commune with the spirits, that is one thing that they do. However, many shamanistic cultures these shamans meditate constantly to train their own souls to achieve "enlightenment." (The concept of a greater spiritual awareness, such as enlightenment, is found to be fairly universal with most human societies) Also, keep in mind that meditation (in its many forms) is found throughout all human society - whether enhanced through mind altering substance or not. The Celtics had their own form of meditation, as do the tribes in South America, and in Africa. It can even be argued that prayer (think of christian prayer) can be a form of meditation.
I think the big mistake you're making here is that you assume that there is only one way that ones spirit energy can harnessed. An asian spiritualist may do it differently then an American Indian would - but the results are similar: the spirit is seen as a form of power that can be harnessed to accomplish a goal.
I spent a lot of time fascinated with Asian cultures myself, so I know it's tempting, but really, it's best if you don't ever assume that the East has something that the West never had, whatever it is you're talking about.
No way! THIS is what the monk will look like in 4E!
pure awesomeness. On topic, however, I wonder if there are some decent homebrew or 3rd party monks out there. I ask because I am interested in converting my current party to 4e, and monk is my stumbling block. I have a cleric, a ninja, and a monk. I can convert the ninja easily enough, but the monk has stymied me thus far.
We in the West really haven't had time to come to collectively come to grips with it yet, so from our perspective it's all bright and shiny and new.
meh, I've grown up with asian influences on all of my saturday morning cartoons, and read chinese children's stories the same time I was reading roman and Brothers Grimm stories.
Ugh. I know. It smells a lot like someone is just spoiling to let loose with the cries of 'Weeaboo Fightin' Magik' and ignoring... everything else ever.
What the
is 'Weeaboo Fightin' Magik' ???The only time I've seen that phrase is when someone wants to complain "anime Martial Arts aren't realistic!" As if Heracles, Superman, Dick Tracy, or James Bond is remotely realistic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul#Socrates_and_Plato
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animistic
---------------------------
To Summerize: Aritsotle, Native Americans and Jesus the Christ are Far Easterners.
Edit: Necromancy! Of yes, the type of classical magic that's all abut using souls for power! Hint: Necromancy doesn't just mean the undead.
Er... I know, that's why I mentioned it. It is "magic of the dead". I think that healing magic should be necromancy, because it's the prevention of death.
Your links are all proof that a belief in spirits exist cross-culturally. That was not what I was asking for. I agree a belief in spirits exists cross-culturally. You haven't been looking far back enough. Long before Plato... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_burial
But Animism is channeling the "Spirit energy" of others. Now, I haven't seen the previews, but isn't that what the Primal power source is? Channeling your own "Spirit energy" I have not yet seen outside of Asian influences. I have only seen Ki called that.
Presumably, non-asians also have souls.
Please don't make bold faced lies. As an asian, I know for sure nobody else has souls.
This is what monks will be like in 4E.
-Joni
"The School of the Undefeated of the East!
The Winds of the King!
Zenshin!
Keretsu!
Tenpatsu Kyoran!
Look, the East is Burning Red!"
Man I hope so.
Class concepts don't have to be Asian, sure. But the idea of 'spirit' energy you can channel and control is an Asian concept. Heck, that's what "Ki" means; Spirit. So how is "Spirit energy" NOT an "asian power source"?
The term psychic comes from the Greek psychikos—"of the soul, mental".
As it is most applications of Ki match extremely well with some forms of psychic abilities.
We'll have to see what they do with it to get more accurate picture.
To use your own "Soul Power" to improve ones own capabilities isn't an idea entirely based in Asian beliefs/culture, HOWEVER, the majority comes from there and thus for the majority of the population Ki (or whatevah) is an Asian theorem.
You can discuss this at length and therefore turn this into one of those other boring threads that all you read are more and more of the same arguments, OR you can realize that you both are right, but you are simply looking at it from different perspectives...and maybe you can pool you resources and make a really good homebrew Monk class that my DM will let me play? :P
And for the rest of the answerers to the OPs post, for gods sake, DON'T ANSWER WITH THE EXACT SAME LINES 50 TIMES IN A ROW...when someone already has answered the question in the same meaning that you would have, consider it answered. (Now I'm referring to all the "OMG u dont hav to buy teh book, u can cry in corner instead" answers...)
ooooh....and If I insulted anyone, don't take it personally, Im just not a fan of pointless repetition
Translating "wuxia" as "your spirit", I'd say this doesn't change Ki at all. Channeling your ancestor's spirits in addition is a bit of a twist, but only because that's usually necromancy.
If you translate "wuxia" as "your spirit," you are WRONG. Wu means force (as in 武力 "wuli," military force), and xia means knight. Together they denoted a specific type of martial artist given to a code of chivalry. The name for them was borrowed for the genre. Nothing in the original word, or the word as used now, denotes "spirit" in any way whatsoever.
Edit: In addition, most Wuxia movies do not use a spiritual justification for the powers the characters have. They're just really, really good at martial arts. So I'm really confused as to how you got "spirit" out of it at all.
Okay, someone has to explain to me how this isn't "asian power source".
I have a soul.
I have a spirit.
I frequently tap into the energy of both via meditation.
I am not asian.
The Advanced Players Guide has a working and pretty well balanced version of the Monk. It even has some ranged attacks that are well flavored.
thanks. The review seem pretty good, so I think I will be getting that soon.
meh, I've grown up with asian influences on all of my saturday morning cartoons, and read chinese children's stories the same time I was reading roman and Brothers Grimm stories.
Exactly. You're familiar with the fantastic elements of Asia, like most of us. It's thrust on us constantly. Not that this is necessarily bad - a quick glance at my video game rack and bookshelf says I'm buying right on into it - but we're awash in Asian fantasy, without being saturated in the culture to the same extent we are our own. Most people don't go digging in Western history for tales of the truly fantastic - that's why people cry "anime!" when things get too over-the-top, despite the awesomeness in classic Western literature. Foreign things, particularly things from the Far East, are associated with exotic flashy fun, while the familiar is classified as sensible and down-to-earth. For that reason, most Westerners never even realize what there is to find closer to home.
Show
Snow White. Yes, that Snow White.
When do you guys think the Sonic the Hedgehog sourcebook is coming out?
Edit: In addition, most Wuxia movies do not use a spiritual justification for the powers the characters have. They're just really, really good at martial arts. So I'm really confused as to how you got "spirit" out of it at all.
My apologies, I've seen wuxia used the same way as "weeaboo fighting magic" and did not expect the word to have inherent meaning.
I have a soul.
I have a spirit.
I frequently tap into the energy of both via meditation.
I am not asian.
What does this have to do with the price of tea in Italy? I'm not asian, either.
And before the inevitable dodge: meditation? Also not an exclusively 'asian' concept either.
Quite true. Another word that the west tends to use more often is "prayer", but I've seen no real difference between the two.
Foreign things, particularly things from the Far East, are associated with exotic flashy fun, while the familiar is classified as sensible and down-to-earth. For that reason, most Westerners never even realize what there is to find closer to home.
Is this why people are getting upset that I'm calling the Ki powersource "asian"? They think what I'm saying is that the Ki powersource is "exotic flashy fun"?
I also don't see them as mutually exclusive, and hope to see a nice cross-section in the Ki source. I also don't think you should be bound to play a character based in an eastern culture just because you have a Ki power source, likewise you shouldn't be bound to a western ideal just because you're playing a druid.
I also don't see them as mutually exclusive, and hope to see a nice cross-section in the Ki source. I also don't think you should be bound to play a character based in an eastern culture just because you have a Ki power source, likewise you shouldn't be bound to a western ideal just because you're playing a druid.
Or a Paladin, or Warlock (heck, warlock in DnD means Oath-maker)
That's pretty funny. I still love Warlocks, though.
I'd think that Paladin could make a fun samurai analogue, OOTS style.
Is this why people are getting upset that I'm calling the Ki powersource "asian"? They think what I'm saying is that the Ki powersource is "exotic flashy fun"?
No, it's that you're calling it inherently Asian when there are Western analogues readily available. Some of us are still upset that there even is a separate Ki power source, because East or West, it's just a method of refining the same things that are represented by the Martial power source, but whatever. I'll deal. But if they're going to saddle one power source with an Asian theme that it doesn't have to have, then it will be a huge chunk of material that I'll have paid for without the opportunity to use, unless I want to integrate an Asian culture into my setting.
Pretty much every current core class is generic enough to be used in a wide variety of settings, for good reason. This trend should be continued, if at all possible. And it is possible.
At the same time, I wouldn't expect that many eastern influenced classes would appear in, say, the primal power source, as that is a distinctively more western concept, i.e. the celtic, norse, and early native american cultures.
How sure are you of that, really? Can you not picture an Asian Barbarian? And I'm thinking that some of the other classes might be adaptable to fit in certain animistic Asian religions.
How sure are you of that, really? Can you not picture an Asian Barbarian? And I'm thinking that some of the other classes might be adaptable to fit in certain animistic Asian religions.
Did you even read the sentence IMMEDIATELY following that one?
"I also don't think you should be bound to play a character based in an eastern culture just because you have a Ki power source, likewise you shouldn't be bound to a western ideal just because you're playing a druid."
Before it even comes back up, I'll clarify that "druid" was just an example. It's probably the most far removed from an eastern cultere in terms of the actual terminology, and that's really what we're talking about here. Fluff and semantics.
Can you not picture an Asian Barbarian?
The Huns are a great example.
I would certainly disagree that the power source being called "Ki" precludes you from using it without integrating asian themes.
This is why I think I'm missing something. I agree with it, and people are trying to convince me of it.
This is why I think I'm missing something. I agree with it, and people are trying to convince me of it.
Well, I guess that really depends on personal opinion. There is absolutely no way to argue this point effectively, because that's based on your own opinion of running your game. As I said above, "Ki power source" is an OOP term, not necessarily an in-game idea. Also as I already said, if I had a player who wanted to play a monk as a grecian styled wrestler, or just a simple brawler, I can't imagine myself saying, "No, that doesn't make sense. Because the word 'ki' is part of the OOP description, you are bound to play an asian character." It's all about twisting the fluff to fit the player/game. If you are unwilling to let that slide, then I guess your players are all going to be asian monks, but as with many, many other elements of the game, I would let my players reflavor the fluff to suit an interesting character concept.
That said, I don't expect to see a lot of classes in the Ki power source that don't have asian origins, but to go back to the druid, I can see a lot of ways that you could play an eastern influenced shapeshifter without being bound to play a celtic themed character.
That said, I don't expect to see a lot of classes in the Ki power source that don't have asian origins, but to go back to the druid, I can see a lot of ways that you could play an eastern influenced shapeshifter without being bound to play a celtic themed character.
I'm saying that it's prefectly reasonable to play an asian themed druid, if you are willing to separate terminology from mechanics, and the same goes for a monk with a non-asian theme.
Please don't make me look at anymore anime pictures.
One other thing to remember is that there is no Asia in D&D. Since your world is of your own making, you can place this, culturally, anywhere you want.
Asia only has context outside of the game.
This is why I think I'm missing something. I agree with it, and people are trying to convince me of it.
Really? Because that's not what you said.
But the idea of 'spirit' energy you can channel and control is an Asian concept. Heck, that's what "Ki" means; Spirit. So how is "Spirit energy" NOT an "asian power source"?
In the same way, how can Arcane NOT be the magic power source?
In the same way, how can Divine NOT be the deities power source?
This quote right here is the problem. It's just plain inaccurate, and isn't consistent at all with what you say your position is now.
It's certainly possible to reflavor the Ki classes, if the need arises. I'd just rather not have to. My new gaming group is large and diverse, and when the Monk is finally released, I'd just as soon not have to deal with the battles between the camps of "YAAAY, KUNG FU AWESOME!", "GET YER ANIME OUT OF MY MEDIEVAL FANTASY!", and "it's in the book, might as well fit it in someplace." Universal fluff would go a long way toward keeping the first two groups calm, making it more likely the material will actually see play. And cut down argument time, lengthening actual gameplay.
DnD doesn't care where it came from. Martial arts weren't created by Asians, no more than the idea of spiritual focus. The concepts have flown about all over the world, but with different names and approaches. As I said, Ki is just something we've all come to identify with, and there's nothing wrong with that.
If YOU personally want the asian theme, then that's fine, but there's no reason to try to convince the rest of the world a powers source should should be relegated solely to a given culture when there's no need to, especially since this is DnD, not history class.
DnD can flat out say a group of wild apes created Ki, and the surrounding inhabitants started to mimic then and learned how to channel their spirit energy into raw power and thus called it ki. It's gimmicky but whatever.
It's just a notion we have to let go of. I think the OP already had his question answered thoroughly, so this should be wrapping up.
If the monk in PH3 is better than the 3E one then it will be worth the wait.
This quote right here is the problem. It's just plain inaccurate, and isn't consistent at all with what you say your position is now.
Okay... because I don't see it as inaccurate...
"Asian" has only out of game meaning.
"magic" has both in and out of game meaning.
"deities" has both in and out of game meaning.
Out of game, magic means anything that normal physics does not allow. The Fighter is as magical as the Swordmage in that sense.
In game, magic is what arcane characters use.
Out of game, deities are things people worship (simplicity!!).
In game, faith is usually described as the thing that generates the divine power.
Archetypes that defy normal physics are given the Arcane power source.
Archetypes that gain power through worship are given the Divine power source.
I assume the following:
Archetypes that tap into your spirit to power the ability to bypass normal limits are Asian.
(assumed because I've not seen evidence to the contrary)
The ability to tap into your spirit to power abilities is not restricted to Asian-flavour.
(assumed because spirit is not restricted to Asian people)
Classes will have some Asian flavour (monks will be martial artists, instead of religious ascetics and farmers).
Classes will have some non-Asian flavour (Jedi could be written here).
Classes without Ki can have Asian flavour (Samurai-martial, ninja-rogue, Kintaro-shaman)
Asia only has context outside of the game.
Then why keep beleaguering the point? The game in this iteration has already shown that it's capable of integrating stuff like this (Kensai, anyone?) without going 'lol azin' about it, so why both assume and bring the attitude of 'lol azin' to discussion of the ki power source and knock this thread way way way off topic with it?
[Ki] will be less the "asian power source" and more like soul/spirit energy.
So... spirit/soul energy isn't "asian power source" because asian has no in-game meaning?
Then why bring up "Asian power source"? Why bring the attitude of "lol no azin!"?
Okay... because I don't see it as inaccurate...
In the same way that the Flat Earth Society doesn't see that the Earth is round. The evidence has been presented. Admit that you were wrong.
"Asian" has only out of game meaning.
"magic" has both in and out of game meaning.
"deities" has both in and out of game meaning.
Out of game, magic means anything that normal physics does not allow. The Fighter is as magical as the Swordmage in that sense.
Except when it doesn't mean that.
In game, magic is what arcane characters use.
And probably other power sources too.
I assume the following:
Archetypes that tap into your spirit to power the ability to bypass normal limits are Asian.
(assumed because I've not seen evidence to the contrary)
Because you haven't looked at the links provided, apparently. This, right here, is where you're completely wrong.
The ability to tap into your spirit to power abilities is not restricted to Asian-flavour.
(assumed because spirit is not restricted to Asian people)
Clearly, since they're not the only ones who cultivated its use.
Classes will have some Asian flavour (monks will be martial artists, instead of religious ascetics and farmers).
Again, not an Asian concept.
Classes will have some non-Asian flavour (Jedi could be written here).
Seriously? We're choosing between Asia and outer space?
Classes without Ki can have Asian flavour (Samurai-martial, ninja-rogue, Kintaro-shaman)
A samurai should be played with an existing Martial class, and most classic ninja concepts should use the Rogue class - it even has a bonus with shuriken. So yes, we agree here.
Because you haven't looked at the links provided, apparently. This, right here, is where you're completely wrong.
The only link that mentioned spirits and power was Animism, which I already said I thought was a Primal theme. Channeling the spirits of others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul#Socrates_and_Plato
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animistic
---------------------------
To Summerize: Aritsotle, Native Americans and Jesus the Christ are Far Easterners.
Edit: Necromancy! Of yes, the type of classical magic that's all abut using souls for power! Hint: Necromancy doens't just mean the undead.
Really? You must not be looking hard enough. Try again. Here's the links.
"Many Pagans and Neopagans believe that there are spirits of nature and place, and that these spirits can sometimes be as powerful as minor deities. "
Your links are all proof that a belief in spirits exist cross-culturally. That was not what I was asking for. I agree a belief in spirits exists cross-culturally. You haven't been looking far back enough. Long before Plato... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_burial
You're doing that annoying devil's advocate thing again, aren't you?
Nope, just getting confused.
So... spirit/soul energy isn't "asian power source" because asian has no in-game meaning?
No.
spirit/soul energy isn't "asian power source" because "soul / spirit" isn't Asian.
Soul / Spirit might be Soul power source.
Or Spirit power source.
Or Karmic power source.
Or any other non-real-world-geography-ethnicity term.
But not Asian.
No.
spirit/soul energy isn't "asian power source" because "soul / spirit" isn't Asian.
Soul / Spirit might be Soul power source.
Or Spirit power source.
Or Karmic power source.
Or any other non-real-world-geography-ethnicity term.
But not Asian.
Sure, Souls and Spirits aren't Asian-only. Now can you please link a mythological human using their own -insertethnictermforsoulhere- as a power source who isn't Asian?
Does Lion-O count?
Asian.
Asian.
FALSE.
Lion-O and the rest of the Thundercats were created by Ted Wolf, an American. Animated in Japan does not mean Japanese. Almost all cartoons are animated overseas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobin_Wolf
double post
Began as magic, no reason in the 1940s to not include Asian influences.
Again, I'm not saying that non-Asain-foo~ (in this case GL) can't use the Ki power source, I'm saying that the concept comes from Asia.
FALSE.
Lion-O and the rest of the Thundercats were created by Ted Wolf, an American. Animated in Japan does not mean Japanese. Almost all cartoons are animated overseas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobin_Wolf
Here's what I'm reading:
"Just because it was drawn in Japan doesn't mean there's any Japanese influence!"
Began as magic, no reason in the 1940s to not include Asian influences.
Again, I'm not saying that non-Asain-foo~ (in this case GL) can't use the Ki power source, I'm saying that the concept comes from Asia.
Actually, the original Green Lantern DID begin as magic, and WAS based on Asian mythology, by way of the middle east. However, Alan Scott's ring did NOT run on willpower, and that's why I didn't post his picture. Hal Jordan on the otherhand had no relation to any mythology when he was created, and was in fact based more on the Lensman novels by EE Smith.
And also that all other medieval usages of the trope don't count due to a technicality and/or poor understanding of what people in the past consider the soul.
Where does medieval Europe use this trope?
Here's what I'm reading:
"Just because it was drawn in Japan doesn't mean there's any Japanese influence!"
I'm not saying that there's no visual Japanese influence, but if I draw Lion-O that does not make him Irish.
Actually, the original Green Lantern DID begin as magic, and WAS based on Asian mythology, by way of the middle east. However, Alan Scott's ring did NOT run on willpower, and that's why I didn't post his picture. Hal Jordan on the otherhand had no relation to any mythology when he was created, and was in fact based more on the Lensman novels by EE Smith.
Here's what I'm reading:
"Just because it drew on Asian ideas doesn't mean there's any Asian influence!"
Or a Paladin, or Warlock (heck, warlock in DnD means Oath-maker)
Which is odd, considering that Warlock in actual terms means "Oath-Breaker," and has found a place in some fiction (and television) as the magic-user who betrays their fellows.
Also, I think the big problem with Ki as "Asian power source" is that even if people are constantly saying that one doesn't have to take it as meaning the characters created with it must be Asian-flavored, there's a lot of people who will assume that. I mean, yes, there could be a Pankration grappler, a bare-knuckle boxer, a street brawler, etc. built with the same ground-work, but unfortunately, far too many people are going to immediately gravitate and ground themselves in the idea of a kung-fu style monk when they hear "Monk" and "Ki" in D&D.
In a way, it's just like the huge disconnect some gamers seem to have with the idea of Ninja in D&D; some can't accept that a reflavored Rogue can be essentially a Ninja, because it's become engrained in the modern culture that a Ninja is something particular that can't just be emulated by the sneaky archetype of the Rogue. Or the way that some won't accept the idea of reflavoring crossbows, etc. to portray a firearm, because there's a mentality that bows and other more archaic weaponry are not as lethal as modern guns.
That's the problem with it; while some can say "it's not just Asian," some are just as likely to reject that concept outright, and want to keep Ki restrained as solely the Asian themed power source. And that's going to be severely and perhaps pointlessly restrictive.
Here's what I'm reading:
"Just because it drew on Asian ideas doesn't mean there's any Asian influence!"
Ok, well, you are really not reading what I'm saying, and clearly I must extrapolate. In the 1930's, Mart Nodell created the character of Green Lantern, aka Alan Scott after watching a railroad worker walk down a track carrying a green lamp, to signify that the tracks were clear. He immediately thought of Aladdin's Lamp, and created a character that had a similar object of power, though in this case, the character accessed the lantern's power by way of a similarly constructed magical ring. After the 1940's, this character ceased publication as superheroes fell out of public favor.
In the early 1960's, Julius Schwartz, then EIC of DC Comics, owner of the "Green Lantern" character, decided to revive many of the company's popular characters fromt he 1930's and '40's, albeit with new science fiction based origins, and with no connection to the original characters, save for their names, occasionally their powers, and very rarely their costumes. Some other characters revived in the way were the Flash, Hawkman, and the Atom. Green Lantern was also revived, however all elements of his original origin were scrapped. Now, Hal Jordan (the Green Lantern of the 1960's) got his lantern from a race of alien protectors. Though he accessed his powers the same way, his power source was different. While Alan Scott's lantern was forged of a magical stone that provided him with power, Hal Jordan's ring, and by extension his lantern allowed him to access, harness, and direct his inner strength to accomplish marvelous tasks. While in the context this inner strength is called "willpower," it is directly analogous to life force, chi, spirit, or any of the miriad terms with the same relative meaning. The object itself was a product of advanced alien science.
So, you are in fact completely incorrect. Hal Jordan's origin purposefully rejected any magical influence, eastern or otherwise in favor of a science fiction based origin.
I am not asian. My belief system is not asian (its actually considered to be a christian/pagan derivative belief with some eastern influences).
We believe in the power of Channeling - both external entities/spirits (most prominantly - celestial beings such as angels), and our own internal spirit/soul - which we commonly refer to as the "Higher Self".
In our belief system, the "Higher Self" is analogous with the Christian "Spirit/Soul", the Native/Pagan "Animus", and the Eastern "Ki/Chi/Qui" and has attributes of all of the above.
We believe that, by the process of channeling, we can manifest our intention in the world. This is accomplished by a process of inner meditation and self-reflection by which we deepen our conscious connection to our (mostly) autonomous Spirit/Soul/Higher Self, and once such connnection is made - consciously manipulate the "aethers" in order to have a direct impact on the events in our lives.
This most often manifests as a series of synchronous (and seemingly planned) events over which we could have no (physical) control, and whose end results are aligned with our inner desires/goals (see Synchronocity).
The deeper one's connection with their higher self, the more they can "Channel" this attribute of our being, and the more common such Synchronous events become.
There. You have a real-world, Western example of a belief system which uses "Soul" power, and while I have simplified the belief for ease of understanding (and to prevent a religious/spiritual argument from developing) - believe me when I say that the phrase "Channeling one's Ki/Chi/Qui" has a very similar (if not identical) meaning as "Channeling one's Higher Self/Divinity" has in my belief system....
Taking it on a slightly different tangent - given 4Es liberal redefinition of power sources, and the role they play in the world we can say that while your "physical body" is the viechle by which the Martial Power Source manipulates Kinetic Energy, the "Chakra System" can be seen as the viechle by which the Ki Power Source manipulates Spirit/Soul energy, while the "Aura" can represent the "spiritual" heat which is radiated when such energy is used.
On a related topic - I sincerely hope that the Ki Power Source incorporates Incarnum, as that would help broaden the scope of what can be accomplished in the Ki power source.
As someone whose faith is Mainstream/New Age Spirituality, I resent your argument.
I am not asian. My belief system is not asian (its actually considered to be a christian/pagan derivative belief with some eastern influences).
Its roots are traceable to many sources: Astrology, Channeling, Hinduism, Gnostic traditions, , Spiritualism, Taoism, Theosophy, Wicca and other Neo-pagan traditions, etc.
As you say, eastern influences. I really think this 'argument' has been a bunch of double-talk, (where each side is saying basically the same thing, but some other issue, like cultural perceptions, is getting in the way) so I'm withdrawing.
However, we are not arguing the same thing.
You are saying that the entire concept of the soul/spirit/higher being/chakra/etc. comes directly from asian philosophy, and only from asian philosophy, correct?
The people opposing that viewpoint say that you are wrong, and that there are examples that do not trace back directly to an asian/eastern source.
But if you want to drop it, I respect that.
Where does medieval Europe use this trope?
Cast From Hit Points
Life Energy
Our Souls Are Different
HOWEVER considering the world of DnD while using asian terms (like Kensai and stuff) is okay, strapping them to a particular fictionnal culture would be wrong.
The people opposing that viewpoint say that you are wrong, and that there are examples that do not trace back directly to an asian/eastern source.
Or they are saying that just because crazysamaritan wants to call it "asian power source" doesn't mean the rest of us want to. His reasoning is ethnocentric. I reject that reasoning as much as I reject the notion that we have to name the 4e pantheon of Gods after any real-world mythology.
A power source that originates in mastery of the spirit? Fine.
Just don't call it "Asian power source" in the core rules.
Its roots are traceable to many sources: Astrology, Channeling, Hinduism, Gnostic traditions, , Spiritualism, Taoism, Theosophy, Wicca and other Neo-pagan traditions, etc..
That is true, save for the fact that the core of our belief system is decidedly "christian" in its nature.
We believe in an eternal soul/spirit, angels/celestial beings and a "god/spirit" which created the universe. We also believe that all of these things are intrinsically "good", and that "Earth" was specifically created for us (mankind), although we differ on the reasons "why".
Many of our values, and spiritual practices are also christian-centric and/or christian-derivitive, despite how many in my belief who would love to claim otherwise.
So derivitive of Christianity is our belief-system that Jesus plays a prominent (and divine) role in our belief system, albiet - not to the same degree it does in Christianity, but to a far greater degree than he does in Judaism/Islam (we see him as a Man who was born without the veil/division of Body and Spirit/Higher Self, and is therefore the embodiment of the "perfect" human).
Trust me when I say that modern Spirituality is 2 Parts Christian, and 1 part pagan/eastern (regardless of how much my fellow believers try to convince themselves otherwise).
In any event.... the point I was making is the fact that the idea of channeling/attuning/perfecting ones soul/ki is not an asian-exclusive concept, and that only the word itself is decidedly asian.
Then again, the RW definition of "Cleric" has nothing to do with the iconography of a crusading priest, while the Scottish word "Warlock" originally meant oath-breaker/betrayer - yet players seem to have no problem accepting the game-definitions for these words at face-value.
I fail to understand why people are having such a difficult time accepting a game-definition of "Ki" that has little/nothing to do with its real-world analogy, in light of the above.
I would happily change my thought, but I cannot think of a single historical culture that is not asian in which ultimate power comes from within.
In any event.... the point I was making is the fact that the idea of channeling/attuning/perfecting ones soul/ki is not an asian-exclusive concept.
It was originally, you said so yourself. While you have seen the wisome of adopting this belief and practice, it was originally and eastern concept.
This is all moot, however, becuase Ki in a game sense has nothing to do with Ki in our world so there is no reason to label it "Asian".
Modern faiths may, but the idea and the philosophy comes from ancient Buddhist priciples.
Actually, buddhism can trace its roots directly to Hinduism, and Hinduism to its roots in Brahmanism (sp)...but I do understand your point.
I also agree that its a moot concept to argue these real word definitions in any event.
The meaning of any given word evolves over time, based on its application and intended meaning.
FYI did you know that the original definition of "barbarian" (or more accurately - barbaros) was - "A foreign individual/tribe whose first language was not greek, or anyone who spoke greek crudely".
The greeks applied this term equally to the tribal cultures of Europe, the Hitites, Persians, and to the Egyptians, the epitomy of civilization during the period.
OTOH, the word "Warlock" from the gaelic waerloga meant "oathbreaker" or "deciever" and had nothing to do with paganism, witchcraft, or any kind of magic.... that is until such times as european veterans of the crusades began applying this term to pagans, largely due to their belief that the "pagans" were oathbreakers unto god - having chosen to worship "false idols".
This argument is pointless.... since the only definition for the term "Ki" (as it applies to DnD) which has any bearing, is the one inherrent within the system.
Actually, buddhism can trace its roots directly to Hinduism, and Hinduism to its roots in Brahmanism (sp)...but I do understand your point.
True, though the concept of the soul as a true power source was devised (according to tradition) by Siddartha as he became the Buddha. Until then all ultimate power came from an outside entity.
I also agree that its a moot concept to argue these real word definitions in any event.
The meaning of any given word evolves over time, based on its application and intended meaning.
FYI did you know that the original definition of "barbarian" (or more accurately - barbaros) was - "A foreign individual/tribe whose first language was not greek, or anyone who spoke greek crudely".
The greeks applied this term equally to the tribal cultures of Europe, the Hitites, Persians, and to the Egyptians, the epitomy of civilization during the period.
Yep, Jews were often refered to as barbarians because of their beliefe in one true G-d, and the fact that their native language was often Hebrew.
After that definition slipped in to history the term Barbarian became a very subjective term and often depended on the point of view of the one using it.
This argument is pointless.... since the only definition for the term "Ki" (as it applies to DnD) which has any bearing, is the one inherrent within the system.
Exactly.
Well 'ki' is not particularly Asian...but throwing balls of it as an attack method or attacking with glowing body parts? That's distinctively Asian.
HOWEVER considering the world of DnD while using asian terms (like Kensai and stuff) is okay, strapping them to a particular fictionnal culture would be wrong.
I very much agree with the sentiment that no class should be tethered to a specific culture, in-game or otherwise. Especially considering that there have been plenty of settings made without the consideration of shoehorning a new culture into the world.
I'd also like to reiterate an earlier question: what space would the Ki source fill? Martial characters are already able to perform physical feats way beyond what a real-life human could ever do. If it's about throwing balls of energy on occasion, a quick multiclass into wizard* would do the trick. The only space I don't see being filled are the cultural particulars, and blech to that.
On a side note, regarding the whole "ki as bolts of energy" thing. Distinctively Asian, or distinctively Japanese? I can't think of any examples that aren't Japanese or Japanese-inspired, but that's not to say they aren't out there.
*Or warlock, or laser cleric, or...
After that definition slipped in to history the term Barbarian became a very subjective term and often depended on the point of view of the one using it.
I think the accepted definition is "those guys wot don't dress like us!"
I'd also like to reiterate an earlier question: what space would the Ki source fill? Martial characters are already able to perform physical feats way beyond what a real-life human could ever do. If it's about throwing balls of energy on occasion, a quick multiclass into wizard* would do the trick. The only space I don't see being filled are the cultural particulars, and blech to that.
I don't think that's the point of power sources. Power Sources seem to be linked to the cosmology and the view of the mind/body/soul and the important is where you get it, not what it acts like.
Divine - Astral Sea
Elemental - Elemental Chaos
Primal - Feywild
Shadow - Shadowfell
Psionics - Mind
Martial - Body
Soul - Ki
Arcane - cheating your connection to any of the above though pacts, study bloodline, etc.
On a side note, regarding the whole "ki as bolts of energy" thing. Distinctively Asian, or distinctively Japanese? I can't think of any examples that aren't Japanese or Japanese-inspired, but that's not to say they aren't out there.
Last I checked, the generic energy blast loving Hindu mythology is Indian, not Japanese. And of course Arabic cultures managed to pull it off in real life thanks to local petroleum deposits and the general lack of intelligence in your average inbreed crusader.
I don't think that's the point of power sources. Power Sources seem to be linked to the cosmology and the view of the mind/body/soul and the important is where you get it, not what it acts like.
Ah, ok. I always thought that was a fan theory. Didn't know it was confirmed.
Last I checked, the generic energy blast loving Hindu mythology is Indian, not Japanese. And of course Arabic cultures managed to pull it off in real life thanks to local petroleum deposits and the general lack of intelligence in your average inbreed crusader.
The Arab bit: I'm not sure that fits, since nobody involved thought it was manifesting internal power. The Arabs knew exactly what it was, and the Crusaders almost definitely thought it was Evil Black Magic from Hell (TM).
Hindu myths: I'm not too clear on Indian myths, but wasn't it usually divine beings throwing those around? Gods doing it would mean that Zeus and other western gods do the same thing (only theirs are differently shaped), and it stops being distinctively Asian. If mortals were doing it too, though, then I stand corrected.
Hindu myths are crazy. You know they invented the Giant Robot :p or so I heard anyway.
And the Primal Source is related to the material World. There doesn't seem to be a distinctively Feywild power source except as part of the Arcane power source.
-Joni
I just feel like the monk class should have been out already and that by releasing three different PHB is just a way WOTC is milking more money from me.
SO do not buy what you do not want, or just get the insider for the month you want the class and there you go the rules for the class
No way! THIS is what the monk will look like in 4E!
ROFLOL ... though this pic really makes me think a wizard with the detective background
Get DDI. It's cheap, and it gives you "virtual" access to all the published books in existence. That way you can save your $30 for a book you REALLY want, and rely on DDI for those irritating "Need Book X for Character Y" situations.
DDI has saved me from having to purchase Martial Power, Manual of Planes, and FR Player's Guide. I can create characters utilizing all three sources (the only reason I would buy them) without shelling out $90. A year's subscription is $60...try to fit EVERY 2009 published 4E WotC book into a $60 budget.
This doesn't count all the other nifty tools included in DDI.
DDI...smartest purchase I've made since 4E came out.
Nothing scares your enemies more than telling them that you're going to subject them to your Erupting Burning Finger.
"Whoa ... who printed the Proctologist PP?"
Arcane - cheating your connection to any of the above though pacts, study bloodline, etc.
Actually, at least in FR, arcane magic comes from The Weave. I'm not sure if it's the same concept in other dnd settings or not.
Nothing scares your enemies more than telling them that you're going to subject them to your Erupting Burning Finger.
I prefer the Mushy Finger Hold :P
Actually, at least in FR, arcane magic comes from The Weave. I'm not sure if it's the same concept in other dnd settings or not.
Actually since the weave was destroyed, arcane magic does not come from the weave anymore.
Actually, at least in FR, arcane magic comes from The Weave. I'm not sure if it's the same concept in other dnd settings or not.
Because Mystra cheats for you. Because she's not real clear on the concept of 'divine magic' and neither Shar.
Ever try explaining the Weave to someone who hasn't heard of FR?
"So, Mystra grants arcane magic through the Weave..."
"Wait, who's Mystra?"
"Goddess of Magic."
"If she's a Goddess, wouldn't that be divine?"
"..."
"So arcane magic comes from a God. Divine Magic comes from the God. Can't these Faerun guys do anything without a God?"
"...No, not really."
Just because she grants "wizardly" magic, doesnt mean that all magic comes from her. The only prob is, failing some great calamity (Takhisis stealing the world/Mystra being killed) - references to the "ancient" magics are so obscure as to be non-existant, or so fear-inducing that no-one is willing to investigate the legitimacy of their claims.
Before Mystra there was magic.... After Mystra there was... well magic. The Spellplague only happened due to the amount of stored magical energy which she had "woven" about herself (and probably accounting for some 70+% of the worlds magic), whose dam had burst upon her death.
It's simple, really.
There is no monk love because monks take a vow of chastity. :P
Oh here it is...
So, let me please insert some definition here.
There are two options for how Ki as a powersource will play out.
Option 1> Ki is the "OMFG AZN ANIMU WEEABU POWERSOURCE"
Option 2> Ki is the Soul energy powersource.
Here's set examples.
Option 1: Ki classes are Monk, Ninja, Wu Jen, Samurai, and Onmyoji. All classes that have asian names and or themes are Ki powersource classes, regardless of how they draw thier powers. Classes that use soul power that are not asian flavored are NOT Ki classes.
Option 2: Ki classes are Monk, Soul-Knife, A ranged Blaster (Ala Martial arts Anime and Fighting games, where the fighters can throw ki blasts at range), and a couple Incarnum like classes. Wu Jen is an ELEMENTAL CLASS, Samurai is NOT a Ki class, and Ninja is only a Ki class if it's Naruto style caster ninjas, not TMNT Martial combat Ninjas.
Option 2 is what we call the "Good Definition" solution.
Option 1 is the "" solution.
That is all.
Returning to the topic of the thread...
It's simple, really.
There is no monk love because monks take a vow of chastity. :P
Many of them don't, really.
Option 2: Ki classes are Monk, Soul-Knife, A ranged Blaster (Ala Martial arts Anime and Fighting games, where the fighters can throw ki blasts at range), and a couple Incarnum like classes. Wu Jen is an ELEMENTAL CLASS, Samurai is NOT a Ki class, and Ninja is only a Ki class if it's Naruto style caster ninjas, not TMNT Martial combat Ninjas.
Yeah, while the Monk is going to be a Ki Striker, I don't see/want all Asian titled classes to be Ki, but I could see the Sohei as a Ki Defender.
As for other classes, yeah, I too see the Wu-Jen as an Elemental Controller, Samurai and Ninja could be Paragon Paths (though maybe the ninja could be a Shadow Striker…?).
.....
Option 2: Ki classes are Monk, Soul-Knife, A ranged Blaster (Ala Martial arts Anime and Fighting games, where the fighters can throw ki blasts at range), and a couple Incarnum like classes. Wu Jen is an ELEMENTAL CLASS, Samurai is NOT a Ki class, and Ninja is only a Ki class if it's Naruto style caster ninjas, not TMNT Martial combat Ninjas.
.....
You know, I never thought of it, but Soulknife would be pretty cool for that. "This blade is my soul!" or some such. Probably mix more Incarnum flavor in, maybe make it a defender.
And yes, this is the good option.
Where'd I leave that gas can?
Oh here it is...
So, let me please insert some definition here.
There are two options for how Ki as a powersource will play out.
Option 1> Ki is the "OMFG AZN ANIMU WEEABU POWERSOURCE"
Option 2> Ki is the Soul energy powersource.
Here's set examples.
Option 1: Ki classes are Monk, Ninja, Wu Jen, Samurai, and Onmyoji. All classes that have asian names and or themes are Ki powersource classes, regardless of how they draw thier powers. Classes that use soul power that are not asian flavored are NOT Ki classes.
Option 2: Ki classes are Monk, Soul-Knife, A ranged Blaster (Ala Martial arts Anime and Fighting games, where the fighters can throw ki blasts at range), and a couple Incarnum like classes. Wu Jen is an ELEMENTAL CLASS, Samurai is NOT a Ki class, and Ninja is only a Ki class if it's Naruto style caster ninjas, not TMNT Martial combat Ninjas.
Option 2 is what we call the "Good Definition" solution.
Option 1 is the "" solution.
That is all.
This man speaks the truth and I love him for doing it.
And Soulknife as a Ki class wouldn't be half bad
Single-class Rogue (Assassin Paragon)
Multi-class Rogue/Monk (Assassin and/or Ninja Paragon).
There is no need for there to be a separate class for Ninja's using 4E mechanics, just as there is no need for a 4E Samurai class (excepting the argument that a Samurai is more Striker than defender).
Then again, the samurai can easily be recreated using either the Great-Weapon Fighter Build (kenjutsu using katana) or the Tempest Fighter Build (nitojutsu using paired katana/wakizashi - daisho). Multi-class variations include the Warlord ("Noble" Samurai), Ranger (kyujutsu/nitojutsu) or Rogue (Ronin or Iaijutsu).
With that being said - I see room for an "Iaijutsu Master" Paragon Path, open to both Fighters and Warlords (or perhaps, all martial characters), and which grants both classes a handful of striker abilities/powers which are usuable with the heavy blade.
I am actually with CrazySam on this. Western, and many eastern religions see an outside personality as the source of power, though it may be tapped through the soul. I can think of NO historical faith other than eastern Buddhist sects that seek that power source ultimately through the self. Modern faiths may, but the idea and the philosophy comes from ancient Buddhist priciples. Shintoism, Wicca, Vodune...all of these incorporate personal power, but it is often garnered through touching the spirit world (an outside source). Obviously even Gnosticism, Christian meditation and Kabala, while mytical in nature, are seeking power ultimately from G-d.
I would happily change my thought, but I cannot think of a single historical culture that is not asian in which ultimate power comes from within.
It was originally, you said so yourself. While you have seen the wisome of adopting this belief and practice, it was originally and eastern concept.
This is all moot, however, becuase Ki in a game sense has nothing to do with Ki in our world so there is no reason to label it "Asian".
See Alchemy
http://www.alchemylab.com/what_is_alchemy.htm
and Gnosticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
See Alchemy
http://www.alchemylab.com/what_is_alchemy.htm
and Gnosticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
Did you read the link?
1 The notion of a remote, supreme monadic divinity - this figure is known under a variety of names, including 'Pleroma' and 'Bythos' (Greek, "deep");
2 The introduction by emanation of further divine beings, which are nevertheless identifiable as aspects of the God from which they proceeded; the progressive emanations are often conceived metaphorically as a gradual and progressive distancing from the ultimate source, which brings about an instability in the fabric of the divine nature;
Clearly by this we see that Gnostics believe in a supreme external power source, not a reliance on an internal soul as an ultimate power source.
I also never though of Alchemy as a "faith" since it relied on testable results, but I will have to read up further.
EDIT: It seems that Alchemy is refered to as a Occult Philosophy, and does indeed place importance on improving the power of ones self. My one caveat is that it also believes on utilizes an almost elemental mysticism that manipulates external powers as well. That being said, however, it is closer to a "Ki" focused philosophy than I thought.
It is also and Asian philosophy at it's origin.
Clearly by this we see that Gnostics believe in a supreme external power source, not a reliance on an internal soul as an ultimate power source.
I also never though of Alchemy as a "faith" since it relied on testable results, but I will have to read up further.
Belief in an external power does not preclude reliance on internal power. Nor do those who use internal power inherently believe in its supremacy.
Belief in an external power does not preclude reliance on internal power. Nor do those who use internal power inherently believe in its supremacy.
Ki, as adapted by D&D, is an ultimate power source that through determination, focus, and rigorous training is capable of great feats. The closest to this is the belief in the perfectibility of the soul ideal presented many Buddhist's sects. When this perfection is worked towards, or obtained, it is through meditation, learning, and training (often over successive life times), and is not a result of acquireing power from an outside source.
Your statement is absosutly true, it however has nothing to do with my contention: That Ki, as presented by D&D, is an entirely Asian idea.
Ki, as adapted by D&D, is an ultimate power source that through determination, focus, and rigorous training is capable of great feats. The closest to this is the belief in the perfectibility of the soul ideal presented many Buddhist's sects. When this perfection is worked towards, or obtained, it is through meditation, learning, and training (often over successive life times), and is not a result of acquireing power from an outside source.
Your statement is absosutly true, it however has nothing to do with my contention: That Ki, as presented by D&D, is an entirely Asian idea.
Your definition of "ultimate" doesn't match any that I know of. I agree that one of the fundamental properties of ki is that it is an internal power source that does not come from any other source. One noteworthy thing, though, is that it is usually viewed as a matter of biology and science, rather than a religious thing. The "successive lifetimes" reincarnation thing is likely a usually-unrelated concept that some individuals or groups end up bundling together because... Asian.
The rest of your definition sounds like it might as well come from the ancient Greek philosophy chapter of one of my college textbooks. I suppose if you really try, you can narrow the definition down to the point where it's inherently Asian, but why do you really want to?
Re: Alchemy
It is also and Asian philosophy at it's origin.
That is incorrect. Alchemy was originally practiced in Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Byzantine, and other Middle-Eastern nations of the period - and so was primarily an african/western practice up until the time the Roman Catholic Church outlawed the practice and subsequently destroyed/fabricated as many of its texts as possible.
As such, I must disagree with your premise that Alchemy had its roots in Asia....
By all surviving historical accounts, it arose in Africa (Egypt to be precise), or at least - somewhere in the Middle East; and was potentially brought there by the Indo-Europeans as they migrated north-west from the Indus Valley, through India and Asia Minor and northward into Europe. Given how little records regarding the Indo-Europeans have been recovered, this latter point is pure supposition on my part.
It is interesting to note that while theoretically, it is possible to change the atomic structure of one element into another, the practical application of such is impossible by our understanding of science. With that being said, studies in the field of quantum mechanics support the supposition that everything is inherrently mutable (see superposition; see collapse of the wavefront; see planck scale).
In any event, all of these arguments (both for and against) are moot, as the only argument regarding the nature of Ki (as it applies to 4th edition), is the argument made by the developers themselves, and to which the game subscribes by extension.
That is incorrect. Alchemy was originally practiced in Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Byzantine, and other Middle-Eastern nations of the period - and so was primarily an african/western practice up until the time the Roman Catholic Church outlawed the practice and subsequently destroyed/fabricated as many of its texts as possible.
As such, I must disagree with your premise that Alchemy had its roots in Asia....
By all surviving historical accounts, it arose in Africa (Egypt to be precise), or at least - somewhere in the Middle East; and was potentially brought there by the Indo-Europeans as they migrated north-west from the Indus Valley, through India and Asia Minor and northward into Europe. Given how little records regarding the Indo-Europeans have been recovered, this latter point is pure supposition on my part.
It is interesting to note that while theoretically, it is possible to change the atomic structure of one element into another, the practical application of such is impossible by our understanding of science. With that being said, studies in the field of quantum mechanics support the supposition that everything is inherrently mutable (see superposition; see collapse of the wavefront; see planck scale).
In any event, all of these arguments (both for and against) are moot, as the only argument regarding the nature of Ki (as it applies to 4th edition), is the argument made by the developers themselves, and to which the game subscribes by extension.
I admit I only did a brief review of internet sources, but they said that it originated in Persia and since Persia is on the Asian continent and frankly has mor in common with the east than the west, I call it an Asian origin.
I agree, though, that all this is moot.
Your definition of "ultimate" doesn't match any that I know of. I agree that one of the fundamental properties of ki is that it is an internal power source that does not come from any other source. One noteworthy thing, though, is that it is usually viewed as a matter of biology and science, rather than a religious thing. The "successive lifetimes" reincarnation thing is likely a usually-unrelated concept that some individuals or groups end up bundling together because... Asian.
I have studied Tai Chi (not in depth, but taken a couple years of classes), and know people that have devoted themselves to Buddhism, and I can tell you that the energy that flows through the body and gives an observant power is in no way believed to be a biological force. I also know, from reading two books on the Dalai Lama, that reincarnation is very much a part of the same faith and "soul" that is responsible for supernatural appearing feats.
Also, even Naruto ninjas arn't Ki powersource. They're Elemental Powersource.
Actually they sort of use both. All their powers rely upon chakra which is basically an equivilent to ki. They just happen to allow for their chakra to become tinged with elements for some attacks(although elemtnal attacks do tend to be high level attacks in universe).
? Have to buy?
who said you HAD to buy anything?
You don't have to buy, but then again, no-one said everything you'd want would be in one book.
I just feel like the monk class should have been out already and that by releasing three different PHB is just a way WOTC is milking more money from me.
Well, WotC is a business, and a business exists to make money, and a source of money for a business is their customer base. So why is it so outlandish to you that they would write books to "milk money" from you?