Discuss!
edit: full goblin writeup as well. The theme is underdark. No word on gnolls or orcs.
Now we just need to push them to put kobolds in 5e PHB.
I, personally, have never been interested in kobolds, but am happy for those of you who are.
...pleased about the goblins though.
Welcome to the party, my short and nasty friends.
Now I can't wait to make a kobold PC for LFR!
The funny thing is is that when they brought out all of the Kobold stuff in 3rd edition and allowed it in the Living Campaign there it was at the death knell of that edition. So it is kind of aprapos that they come out at the death of this edition.
Kobolds are officially the "jump the shark" moments for WotC
Kobolds are officially the "jump the shark" moments for WotC
Semi-Serious Prediction: Kobolds will be playable from day 1 of 5e...
Shifty won't survive.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dex was the base stat for both, but I never saw Goblins as terribly charismatic. Or Kobolds being very durable for that matter.
So what stats do you think they'll decide on for Kobolds? For Goblins?
I wouldn't be surprised if Dex was the base stat for both, but I never saw Goblins as terribly charismatic. Or Kobolds being very durable for that matter.
Kobold: Str and Dex or Wis
Goblin: Dex and Str or Char
Both races will need strength to fulfill their archetypal warrior role. Both need Dex to bring out their speed and shifty-ness. Wis for kobolds so they can do their Wyrmpriest thing and Char for goblins so they can be little rogues and archers, another goblin archetype.
You know it's not going to be Int and Con seems really out of place for something so small. The trick is which is the main stat and what are the flex stats.
So what stats do you think they'll decide on for Kobolds? For Goblins?
I wouldn't be surprised if Dex was the base stat for both, but I never saw Goblins as terribly charismatic. Or Kobolds being very durable for that matter.
My guess:
Kobolds: +DEX, +CON or CHA
--Makes them good Sorcerers (their traditional preferred class), Rogues (esp artful dodgers), and Assassins
So what stats do you think they'll decide on for Kobolds? For Goblins?
I wouldn't be surprised if Dex was the base stat for both, but I never saw Goblins as terribly charismatic. Or Kobolds being very durable for that matter.
My guess:
Kobolds: +DEX, +CON or CHA
--Makes them good Sorcerers (their traditional preferred class), Rogues (esp artful dodgers), and Assassins
Yes, please! Could also maybe play a Paladin, which is hillarious to me.
So what stats do you think they'll decide on for Kobolds? For Goblins?
I wouldn't be surprised if Dex was the base stat for both, but I never saw Goblins as terribly charismatic. Or Kobolds being very durable for that matter.
Kobolds: Dex, Con/Cha. Shifty changed to 1/encounter minor action shift equal to half speed.
Goblins: Dex, Wis/Cha. Goblin Tactics changed to a free action.
And I agree with Salla, those are the stats I allow for kobolds in my home game.
Yes, please! Could also maybe play a Paladin, which is hillarious to me.
Kobold paladin of bahamut would be fantastic.
My guess for flex stats:
Kobold: +2 Con; +2 Dex/Cha. I made Con the primary the primary because somehow they always struck me as hardy. Either way (Con or Dex primary) they make poor Dragon sorcerers, but with a Con primary make good Elementalists at least (fits better than Storm or Wild). They're ok at being Fighters but good as Rogues and Assassins, and also Warlocks (which kind of fits as well). I could also see an Int or Wis bonus for being crafty. shifty has to be changed unless it's still their only real defining mechanics. I think ShinQuickMan has it pretty accurate, though I could see it essentially becoming tumble.
Goblin: +2 Dex; +2 Wis/Cha. Same as some other people's guess here. It makes them good as Rogues, Assassins, Rangers ... things I picture the little hit-and-runners as being good at. goblin tactics is awful, and agreeing again with ShinQuickMan, it should be a free action.
If you put in other "monter" races, I see the following easily:
Hobgoblin: +2 Cha; +2 Str/Con. I see these guys as archetypal Warlords, and the Str helps with that. It's weird seeing everything get a Cha bonus, but every race introduced post-Essentials has had a Cha bonus in some way so it's not too out there. I can also see them with an Int bonus in there somewhere. hobgoblin resilience becomes a free action.
Bugbear: +2 Str; +2 Con/Dex. Brings back the ability to make them more of the "brute enforcers." predatory eye becomes a free action that triggers when you hit and have CA.
Gnolls: +2 Dex; +2 Str/Con OR +2 Con; +2 Dex/Cha. The first fits them more as a martial race, but the last opens up some of their more "warlocky" things they do. Pretty much everything else stays the same.
Orcs: +2 Str; +2 Con/Wis. I HATE THIS STAT LAYOUT but it's the only one I can really picture. It's boring and generically applied to "big brute races" like Goliath and Minotaurs but I couldn't think of something better. That said, they need serious mechanical love. They have terrible passives and their power needs to not be a Standard Action itself and require a weapon.
Duergar: +2 Con; +2 Wis/Cha. This differentiates them from Dwarves more and gives them Warlock goodness. Make their power scale better bonus-wise (+6/+9/+12)
Notably Blandelings, Githyanki and Bullywugs were not included because I really cannot see them fitting. Also Bladelings are supposedly getting a DDI write-up at somepoint. and Bullywugs are ... Bullywugs (ew).
Awww...
Shifty won't survive.
I'm glad my question was of interest to people. Mearls himself was eager to see the writeup, and "ordered" the responsible dev (whoever has that fauxhawk thingy) to tell him/us if Shifty made it into the final writeup. Unfortunately, no further info was provided.
Yes, please! Could also maybe play a Paladin, which is hillarious to me.
Kobold paladin of bahamut would be fantastic.
On it!
Orcs: S + C/W (for shamanic stuff)
Hobgoblins: S + C/D
Goblins: D + I/C
Kobolds: D + I/W
There is NO way one of these underground races should be charismatic. However they could have Intelligence or Wisdom to represent their shifty cunning and tricksy ways. Likewise Strength should be for the Orcs and Hobgoblins, but Constitution could be for Goblins in the sense that they are tough little survivors: the same way a husky is just a dog, but what a tough dog!
Orcs: S + C/W (for shamanic stuff)
Hobgoblins: S + C/D
Goblins: D + I/C
Kobolds: D + I/W
OK, a few flaws here.
1. Charisma is force of personality as well as "prettyness" and "social skills," so plenty could have it.
2. Some of these races, already have Cha bonuses, like the goblin and hobgoblin. And it makes sense for them too. Keep in mind, in your world they might all be brutes, but in worlds like Eberron they have a whole society.
3. Did you completely ignore the stat bonuses these races already have? Read the MM.
I don't get why nobody has wanted Kobolds to be Con, Int/Dex, because they should probably be good as artificers to show off their propensity for traps, and an Int stat would also be good for Tuckers Kobolds-y tacticians
Agreed. Kobolds really need to do well as artificers, rogues, and dragon sorcerers. That's why to this day I maintain that it was a mistake to make dragon sorcerers Str secondary. Really, that was just to get the stats to match up with dragonborn. (And now that they can be a Cha/Con race, that's not a problem). Of course, ability scores alone don't determine best classes - there's also racial support. But do we really think this article will include a lot of racial feats, especially of the class-specific variety? Anyway, Int for Tucker's kobolds is so right.
Warforged shouldn't have a CON bonus because it makes them better Warlocks. Warforged should have a CON bonus because their flavor indicates that they're tougher than most other races. If their flavor didn't indicate that they be tougher than most other races, then they shouldn't have a CON bonus. Goliaths shouldn't have a STR bonus because it makes them better Barbarians. Goliaths should have a STR bonus because their flavor indicates that they're stronger than most other races. If their flavor didn't indicate that they be stronger than most other races, then they shouldn't have a STR bonus.
Likewise, Kobolds shouldn't have an INT bonus because it makes them better Artificers. Kobolds should have an INT bonus because their flavor indicates that they're smarter than most other races. If their flavor doesn't indicate that they be smarter than most other races, then they shouldn't have an INT bonus.
I hate any abilty score reasoning that includes "it should be good at x class or build".
Isn't 'the classes a race is good at' part of their flavor?
Isn't 'the classes a race is good at' part of their flavor?
No, at least not always or not necessarily. Dwarves were always classic Fighters despite (until very recently) not getting a STR bonus. At the same time, they never had any particular flavor indicating they be great Druids or Shamans despite having a WIS bonus (and secondary CON) and meshing very mechanically well with those classes. The classes that a race excels at mechanically and the classes that a race stereotypically selects as dictated by flavor are not connected except by what essentially boils down to coincidence. Let's not forget about how horrible Halflings were at being Barbarians back in 3.5 Eberron or how Tieflings still aren't the optimal Infernal Warlock. If we want races to excel as members of specific classes or builds, then the much better way to do that is through racial feats and the like.
F'rex, I still think elves should be +DEX, +STR/WIS ... because they're supposed to be good Rangers, and good with primal classes, that covers pretty much all of them.
But now I'm curious as to what that third race is. It's the final days of 4e, so maybe something bizarre like the Mindflayer?
Eh, I disagree. I think starting with what classes a race is supposed to be good at is the correct way to go about it. Having only six ability scores means there will be some classes a race is accidentally good at (such as the aforementioned Warforged Warlock), but I don't perceive that as a particular problem.
F'rex, I still think elves should be +DEX, +STR/WIS ... because they're supposed to be good Rangers, and good with primal classes, that covers pretty much all of them.
I have to agree with the "classes a race is good at being" as being part of their flavour. Then again, I also prefer cultural flavour attached to races, which I know ticks off those not interested in the base culture of D&D.
Also, new monster races, hells yesssssss.
When's the book coming out?
As best as I can recall, we designed three new playable races for this book. Two have been mentioned in this thread but I don't remember if the third was talked about at DDXP.
Only 3?!
There goes my hopes for bugbear write-ups. I'm definitely happy about kobolds, though.What else is Underdark-y? Duergar? Svirfneblin? Derro? Kuo-toa?
Just a shame it has come so late in the 4E development.
We did just get a race that has at-will flight at level 1.
It's really not a stretch anymore.
I think Shifty should remain on Kobolds.
We did just get a race that has at-will flight at level 1.
It's really not a stretch anymore.
Bad design does not excuse further bad design.
Yes, please! Could also maybe play a Paladin, which is hillarious to me.
Kobold paladin of bahamut would be fantastic.
Did it in 3e for a pick-up game.
Had a Celestial Dire Weasel for a mount.
My money is svirfneblin. We havn't seen much gnome support since essentials was released and I think that they were saving their thunder for this book. Gnome support was shockingly absent from Heroes of the Feywild (especially considering the pictures of gnomes throughout the book) and I've thought that they were saving it for something else. Now that 5e has been announced, my guess is that they need to save some good stuff for the final few 4e books to ensure the fans keep buying.
The bladeling was announced as a Dragon magazine release so I doubt we'll see it in this book.
These are for the new Dungeon Survival Guide yes?
I think Shifty should remain on Kobolds.
We did just get a race that has at-will flight at level 1.
It's really not a stretch anymore.
Bad design does not excuse further bad design.
True, but my point is still valid. If they decided that this was not against the design philosophy, why should Shifty be against it?
I'M SO EFFIN HAPPY, FINALLY! THE KOBOLD DAY WILL SOON BE UPON US!
I've been waiting a long time for this!
Watch out there, gnomes, there's a new spunky race of engineering marvels in town!
Bad design does not excuse further bad design.
True, but my point is still valid.
What? No, that was exactly why your point was not valid.
If they decided that this was not against the design philosophy...
What are you talking about? Them deciding that they want to do something overpowered doesn't make that thing not overpowered. Mistakes exist to be learned from, not repeated.
As you can tell i'm rather excited about this development. Now all I need is Kenku, Bullywug.
YES! HUZZAH! Finally Kobolds! Papito will live once more! Xyeesephin shall reign terror down upon all mortals and they shall fear him!
As you can tell i'm rather excited about this development. Now all I need is Kenku, Bullywug.
AFAIK Kenku are already PC-allowed. They just don't have a flex-stat (like Gnolls). I am used to LFR rules so that might just be there.
I'm curious, if you do get Shifty, how do you break it? It doesn't seem that overpowered to me. There are certain situations where it would be very very good but not busted.
I'm curious, if you do get Shifty, how do you break it? It doesn't seem that overpowered to me. There are certain situations where it would be very very good but not busted.
It doesn't matter how powerful it seems to be when inserted into the system as a whole. What matters is how powerful it seems when compared to other racial features, because that's what it's supposed to be balanced against. Shifty is too powerful to be a racial feature. If you want an example of what it's ridiculously awesome for, though, look no further than charging builds. With Shifty, a character can repeatedly charge a creature that its adjacent to without fear of opportunity attacks. Does that sound ridiculous? Probably not that much, no, but compare even that with the utility of other racial features.
Mig says: "Guess they saved the best for last..."
Mig says: "Guess they saved the best for last..."
Like. So much.
Mig says: "Guess they saved the best for last..."
Like. So much.
Do you read the comic?
Mig says: "Guess they saved the best for last..."
Like. So much.
Yes I do. So far Mig is my favorite character.
I hate any abilty score reasoning that includes "it should be good at x class or build". I just think that's bad reasoning, mechanics as opposed to flavor.
Warforged shouldn't have a CON bonus because it makes them better Warlocks. Warforged should have a CON bonus because their flavor indicates that they're tougher than most other races. If their flavor didn't indicate that they be tougher than most other races, then they shouldn't have a CON bonus. Goliaths shouldn't have a STR bonus because it makes them better Barbarians. Goliaths should have a STR bonus because their flavor indicates that they're stronger than most other races. If their flavor didn't indicate that they be stronger than most other races, then they shouldn't have a STR bonus.
Likewise, Kobolds shouldn't have an INT bonus because it makes them better Artificers. Kobolds should have an INT bonus because their flavor indicates that they're smarter than most other races. If their flavor doesn't indicate that they be smarter than most other races, then they shouldn't have an INT bonus.
Ability scores are mechanical units. Here, have some scrambled chicken.
It doesn't matter how powerful it seems to be when inserted into the system as a whole. What matters is how powerful it seems when compared to other racial features, because that's what it's supposed to be balanced against. Shifty is too powerful to be a racial feature. If you want an example of what it's ridiculously awesome for, though, look no further than charging builds. With Shifty, a character can repeatedly charge a creature that its adjacent to without fear of opportunity attacks. Does that sound ridiculous? Probably not that much, no, but compare even that with the utility of other racial features.
I'm of the opinion that most of the other racial abilities are underpowered, and things like pixie flight and shifty are finally getting it right. The designers were far too cautious in the past. Instead of complaining about new things that people like, it would be better to ask them to fix races like Shifter and Minotaur, which kinda suck.
Ability scores are mechanical units.
That are supposed to represent a thematic description.
Here, have some scrambled chicken.
I don't get it.
www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
OH GOD YES I CAN'T EFFING WAIT
I seriously am freaking out about another gnome race. SO. HAPPY!
oh whats that? Confirmation on kobolds and even a picture? SURE THING, CHIEF!
www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
OH GOD YES I CAN'T EFFING WAIT
OMG, this is gonna be awesome!
The third playable race will almost certainly be a typical underdark creature. Probably Duergar or Svirfneblin (deep gnome). That way they can make them able to pick up dwarf or gnome feats and not have to worry about future racial support.
My money is svirfneblin. We havn't seen much gnome support since essentials was released and I think that they were saving their thunder for this book. Gnome support was shockingly absent from Heroes of the Feywild (especially considering the pictures of gnomes throughout the book) and I've thought that they were saving it for something else. Now that 5e has been announced, my guess is that they need to save some good stuff for the final few 4e books to ensure the fans keep buying.
DING! I told you so
I found it so wierd that gnome support was totally absent post-essentials. The announcement that svirfneblin are the third race in this book explains why. My guess is that the svirfneblin will be able to use all of the existing gnome feats and will probably include a few more.I'm very excited about this book. Coming together with the "Halls of Undermountain", I'd be very tempted to start up a delver style campaign.
I just hope that the softening market for 4e books doesn't doom these two items to a "straight to DDI" release.
Encounter AND Move Action? Complete garbage.
I'd much rather lose the burst 2 to get the old Shifty back, or at the very least make it a move OR an encounter but not both.