As I have read 2 the new 4th edition core books (skimmed 1) I have noticed there seem to be small links to an oriental setting. On page 137 of the DMG there is a Wuxia campaign theme. On page 200-201 of the MM there is the monster Oni; Oni is the main evil race in the Oriental Adventures supplement released in 2001 for v3.5. So far I have not seen any link to an oriental setting in the PH but that is the book I have only skimmed through, something could be there.
In version 3.5 there were no links to an oriental campaign, theme, or classes in the core rulebooks. When the Oriental Adventures supplement came out you had to basically read the whole book to understand the new concept. Now in version 4 there seem to be small links here that lead me to believe there will be an Oriental Adventures supplement in the future. *because of the links I think that it might be easier to adapt an oriental setting to a regular D&D campaign
Which I hope there is a supplement because James Wyatt’s last Oriental Adventures was written great (imo). He really made it a unique setting and basically everything was there you just needed some interest in it. Unfortunately my group never caught on to the idea as well as I had.
What are your thoughts on this? Have you found any other oriental links? Do you think that there will be a 4E Oriental Adventures supplement? Do you think that it will be easier to transition to an oriental type of setting because of the minor links in the core rulebooks? Or do you disagree with everything I said/typed? :P
Will there be a 4E Oriental Adventures supplement?
Perhaps a few years from now, once they go thru a few of the power sources and a few of the campaign settings
I'd like both, and a Nyambe or equivalent too, please.
I'd like both, and a Nyambe or equivalent too, please.
That would be cool, but I would think unlikely. But definately bring back Al-Qadim and Kara-Tur
I just hope they have old favorites like the samurai, ninja, and wu jen as paragon paths instead of whole new classes; I'd rather space be given to new content instead of being told that my wizard has to be Europeanesque unless done in this new, slightly different way. But that's just my opinion, admittedly.
I just hope they have old favorites like the samurai, ninja, and wu jen as paragon paths instead of whole new classes...
Instead of paragon paths, which are what 3 powers and 3 level effects, I would rather powers/abilities be added to the classes that mimic the aspects of the Samurai, the Wu Jen and others. Add to the mechanical mix some flavor changes and it would be good to me.
had to be the coolest thing ever.
1st - I have truly enjoyed playing Oriental Adventures v3.5
2nd - I have absolutely NO interest in v4.0
3rd - My group, too, has gone back to the basics and we now play 1st Edition with a few updates as far as combat sequences. Much more fun without all the extreme detail and specifics!!
As long as they don't use 70% of some other game designers material, then I hope they do make a new one.
L5R didn't belong in a D20/ D&D setting, it ruined so much that was great about it from both ends.
It cheapened the original D&D settings, and it looked like so much theft from the L5R stuff.
Or OA could be released as a setting. I wouldn't expect it till 2010 then, since 2009 is Eberron and they said they were going to do one setting a year (and even then each setting will consist of a Setting book and a Player's book, plus adventures, not whole libraries of books).
…I would sell my ass for a 4th Ed Al-Qadim book, though.
I have noticed there seem to be small links to an oriental setting.
On the other hand, did you notice how many references to eastern settings are missing from the PHB?
No Monk may be obvious, but also no composite bows and no repeating crossbows, both distinctly from Asian sources.
Leaves me to believe there may a package deal in the planning, possibly a future PHB that can throw a bunch of gear along with known or new classes with a Ki power source.
Personally, I would prefer a genre book or a PHB focused entirely on various eastern themed sources over a setting, unless they mix in a few more Asian cultures into it. I liked the expanded options from OA, but it never worked for me as a setting. I always preferred a more Chinese or Mongol style over the mainly Japanese based settings normally published. A bit more 70s Hong Kong Kung Fu flic, and a bit less ritual or bushido suits me just fine... but there is always room for a well developed Samurai.
My fantasy is for WotC to ultimately do a Players Handbook(III?): Oriental Adventures; Dungeon Masters Guide: Oriental Adventures; and Monster Manual: Oriental Adventures. The first would go through the original PHB and give a quick overview of how to give the existing character classes an “oriental spin.” Then giving us new classes, paragon paths (for new and existing Classes,) etc.
The DMG would give treasure and equipment with an Asian theme; how to use existing guides and rules in the OA setting/how to use OA material in a non-OA setting; a new OA themed village (like Fallcrest); etc.
The Monster Manual—I hope this one is self explanatory….;)
Then of course follow up with the Kara-Tur setting books….
Hey, I know it’s a bit of a pipe dream, but why not?:D
On the other hand, did you notice how many references to eastern settings are missing from the PHB?
No Monk may be obvious, but also no composite bows and no repeating crossbows, both distinctly from Asian sources.
Leaves me to believe there may a package deal in the planning, possibly a future PHB that can throw a bunch of gear along with known or new classes with a Ki power source.
Personally, I would prefer a genre book or a PHB focused entirely on various eastern themed sources over a setting, unless they mix in a few more Asian cultures into it. I liked the expanded options from OA, but it never worked for me as a setting. I always preferred a more Chinese or Mongol style over the mainly Japanese based settings normally published. A bit more 70s Hong Kong Kung Fu flic, and a bit less ritual or bushido suits me just fine... but there is always room for a well developed Samurai.
I personally lover the Japanese theme and am very happy with an abundance of Ninja and Samurai—but I agree, A Kara-Tur/ OA setting needs to encompass all of the Orient; Japan, China, Mongolia, and India at the very least…
I was also dissapointed when Alderac Entertainment stopped supporting d20 in their books.
The setting for Legend of the Five Rings was perfect for D20, the setting was epic, there were clearly defined bad guys (The Shadowlands), there was plenty of room for politics and role playing too.
I think the problem some people have is trying to incorporate the oriental flavour into a regular western style DnD campaign. Both genre have such a rich history and story base, why cheapen either b incorporating one into the other?
Wizards take over of the system was one of the things I hated most about 3.x, they even lost most of the great writers they had at that point.
If you want a good representation of the L5R, look at the D10 stuff, and you'll find a much better mechanical system than one that's supposed to represent European high adventure combat.
This is of course my own opinon, but the L5R (legend of five rings) setting was horrible for D20, especially when you look at the fit that their d10 system had. it was a ruining force in the game, and probably led to a great deal of the downfall of the system.
Wizards take over of the system was one of the things I hated most about 3.x, they even lost most of the great writers they had at that point.
If you want a good representation of the L5R, look at the D10 stuff, and you'll find a much better mechanical system than one that's supposed to represent European high adventure combat.
i would like to know why you thought d20 for L5R was so bad? I have thought the system for 3.x DnD was the best in business at the time and many people and companies have felt the same way
i would like to know why you thought d20 for L5R was so bad? I have thought the system for 3.x DnD was the best in business at the time and many people and companies have felt the same way
L5R's system was made for L5R. It's like SW Saga Edition: It's a tough fit to try and apply that to DnD now. Or vice-versa.
Magic in Rokugan is supposed to be extremely rare; DnD 3E was extremely magic-centric.
D10 has methods for iaijutsu duels that are deadly without adding skills or loads of dice.
D20 doesn't.
I liked Rokugan. But it wasn't perfect.
DnD 3E was indeed what they thought to be the perfect system because it was simplistic and streamlined in compare to other systems at the time. But changing times called for different measures. Why have hundreds of skills when you didn't have enough skill points to infuse into the necessary ones?
It gave characters a unique sense that only by copying directly from a character sheet could two characters ever be exactly the same.
But ultimately, by what percentage does a 1 or 2 point difference really affect skills? And why then would you not consider that your character is always keeping their skills top-notch as the levels progress? If you want your character to be going deaf, use it as an excuse for a failed perception check, not because you sabotaged your own character, which is truly dangerous.
Sohei - ki defender
Ninja - ki striker-controller
Monk - ki striker.
Shugenja - elemental leader
Wu Jen - elemental controller.
Witch hunter? Yakuza?
I would like the return of nezumi/ratking, and the korokoboru (oriental dwarfs/gnomes), the henyengokai (changeshifter) and bakemono (oriental gobling).
Or, better yet, just make new powers and alternate class features for the Fighter class. This way you can have the same class cover multiple roles, like the Indian Kshatriya.
I also PRAY that ki does not become the catch-all oriental power source. There is really no reason for samurai/bushi to be anything but Martial, honestly. A Duelist/Weapon Master/Kensei type I can see being Ki based, though.
Sohei should be Divine as they claimed their power came from their religious devotion, not personal inner power. They're holy warriors, much like the paladin class.
I don't see why we need a special ninja class when Rogue was obviously written with ninja in mind (They get bonuses to shuriken, for heaven's sake). Maybe add some new Rogue powers and feats, though. And maybe an alternate proficiency list.
Shugenja I'd like to see actually modeled after, well, Shugenja, instead of the Rokugani elemental spellcaster that got labeled shugenja. But I doubt that'll come to pass...
Yakuza really doesn't need to be a class any more than "bandit" does.
A wuxia-style warrior would be a cool class. Ki Striker maybe? Focus on light armor but with a good weapon proficiency array, and powers that focus on maneuverability and fast strikes.
Yogi could be a psionic... I wanna say Leader.
The PHB classes can encompass a lot of things, honestly, just don't feel tied to class titles and you really solve a lot of problems.
Now setting: I'd like to see Kara-tur come back but get cleaned up. Kara-tur was a great setting in the sense it covered almost all of Asia, in its number of cultures. The problem was many cultures were repeated because they also wanted to cover different time periods. There are at least 3 different Chinas and 2 Japans if I remember correctly, all based around different time periods of China and Japan.
Or, really, I'd like them to just have a bunch of cultural notes and leave it setting neutral, make it more a guide than a supplement. But apparently even mentioning real life is blasphemy or something
.Anyway, I felt it my duty as an old OA Forum (RIP) regular to toss in my 2 copper.
i would like to know why you thought d20 for L5R was so bad? I have thought the system for 3.x DnD was the best in business at the time and many people and companies have felt the same way
*Claimers*
First of all, and this is my opinon, so it may clash with some people, if so I'm sorry.
That said, I love D&D, it's a great game, but it's far from my favorite.
Most of what I'm going to say RoyalBlueEyes said in shorter form, and I do agree with him on much of it, so if you just want the short form, skip my post and read his.
A good DM only needs to know his system well, because it is how he interacts with the world, the DM is how the players interact with the world... So anything can be the best with a damn good GM.
*Claimers*
Now,
D&D does D&D well. It was a semi-broken RP game that was made to be mostly about the fight, later roleplaying developed into a more Immersive shared story experience. So they added skills and other things... Everything up to this point in the development of D&D has been patches to the core, witch was a little funky to begin with. 3.x was the latest in this "stopgap" method of modification, 4e seems to be the start of meddling with the core of the problem.
When you look at the D&D system, it's designed to play as it plays; with the Fighter, Thief, Cleric, and Wizard and then numerous combinations of those archetypes. When you build a world for the system, you need it to be made for the way the game plays. Kara-Tur did this very well. It is the "proper" Asian setting for the D&D Game, and with the old Oriental Adventures it made one of the better supplement books.
The D&D name is the biggest in the industry, and it's the name that got it where it is... because it does what it does so well, and for a long time didn't try to do anything else. If you are just about killing things and taking their stuff it works very well, as well as if you are trying to politic the barony, it's been capable in the past. 3.x was one of the better D&D versions at doing that.
When Wizards released the OGL, they made a move that was much akin to Microsoft's open source code. There are many people who use Linux and Mac's and think that those options are much better than using the Microshaft model... But that's what D&D did, they used their name and were able to expand everywhere, some into places they shouldn't have, sometimes into games that it really wasn't built to handle, or that weren't developed to handle D&D's style of play. They had a business model that was set to absolutely rule the industry, it became, "jump on board, or sink." And they did that wonderfully.
Minor problem games include D20 modern, or the original D20 Star Wars, it's just uncomfortable to see that happen. I mean, come on. How can you have a modern weapon system without a called shot; Snipers, expert shots, trick shooting... All and all the genre is rife with a called shot need. I am also biased for the old D6 Star Wars to ever really see the D20 version from a clean slate (Kind of an, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it deal.").
Major problem games include D20 Cuthulu, I've said it before, you should not stick a game all about story and research (there are long periods of time that you DON'T want to fight in COC) on such a heavy combat driven game engine... it would be like trying to play Myst on the WOW engine... it's an inappropriate fit.
But as D&D is THE name brand, everyone had to jump on the bandwagon if they didn't want to go under. Once you've joined the team, there is no sense slamming the system you've just put most of your product in.
As far as "best game system," that's up to the end user. My personal favorites are (in order of enjoyment);
Hero- this does "most" everything well, it's just crunchy enough for me, while being just loose enough for me. It's the game system that I spend the most time with, and I'm absolutely happy with it. I also think that some of those who enjoy the 3.x stuff would love Hero if they gave it half a shot. I've had a wonderful number of converts, due to the edition switch. I personally have a little issue with some of the armor and shield rules, but as I've said nothing is perfect.
L5R (D10)- This system is perfect for the world it was meant be involved with. The philosophy behind the mechanics inform the game you play. As and example that wasn't given above; Stats were divided into elements, each element had it's place in the cosmology of the world, and each had a mental and a physical component. This is an example of the mechanics (rules) informing the game your playing. As far as the core mechanic, you could roll x amount of dice and then keep a smaller number to add together to try to beat a total... this was the governing mechanic (mostly). That way you had much more control over how you do things, sometimes (playing a game of skill against a superior, you could intentionally take the lower totals) you could also bid up your own target number to attempt more complex tasks. All of it worked together wonderfully. Now of course in 3.x you could just roll to try to underachieve (success meaning you successfully sucked at your task), but it's not really informing the roleplay, it's shoehorning.
Star Wars (D6)- This is a fast and loose style of game... just like the movies. I loved how it didn't take itself too seriously. It also won several awards for "best kept continuity" among the many Star Wars Books, comics, movies, and made-for-tv-movies. When Lucas had Timothy Zahn write his series of books (number 7, 8, and 9) he was told to read through the D6 Star Wars books to better understand the world. True, there were at times a lot of dice to roll, but it really wasn't all that bad, Shadowrun is far worse.
D&D 4e-So far I love the system, however I'll never use it for what it's not meant for, that's what the other games are there for.
White Wolf- Well, you want a system that's made for Roleplay that one is your monster. Sometimes too much Role, personally I'm not a huge LARPer.
Call of Cuthulu- Classic, that's all that needs to be said.
D&D is not necessarily the best system out there, because people are going to have different tastes. One of the greatest things about the era of 2nd ed is it didn't try to be the only rpg, and it looks like 4th isn't either... and that's cool. D&D is the best at being D&D, absolutely. And I'm not saying that lightly, D&D has become it's own genre, and that's important, because they need to pay attention to that, to ensure that the only way to get your D&D fix is by playing D&D.
I remember the RPG club in College back in the mid '90s, every time you went there someone had a new system. You got to try them all out and see what there was to offer... exploring other systems was part of the fun of being a gamer. I rarely meet anyone anymore who has played multiple systems, and everyone seems so close minded about it. I don't think theirs anything wrong with checking out another system for the way it handles the game it plays, sure there were a lot of crap out there, but there were some gems too.
I wouldn't play the L5R system to run D&D, why, it just isn't a good fit, I'm not saying that L5R is the BEST system out there, I'm saying it did a better job at Rokugan than D&D did. And like-wise D&D shouldn't try to be what it's not. TSR had several games including an "All my children" one (I didn't even know that) but they were different systems... Heck even Gama World was heavily removed from the core D&D system. It didn't try to fit a multiverse into it's core. It did D&D, that's all.
Because of the nature of RPG's there can't be a best, too many people have too many different notions of what a "good" system is and of what a good game is. I have some friends who never liked D&D, and refuse to play ANY edition, because it's not what they like, or care about, the system is still too broken for them. But they love Hero, Star Wars, and Ninja's and Superspies (I still have a lot of problems with that system). But again a good GM is able to overcome much problems with a system.
The biggest folk who will disagree that D&D is the best system would be people like Killer Shrike from the Hero boards, he loves (and has much skill in Hero-fu) and has on his web page with the conversion from D&D to Hero, so that they don't have to deal with the inconsistencies in the mechanics of 3.x, and have a much cleaner system (with more to do). He still buys the books, and I think he's in some 3.x games, but the Hero system is in his opinon the best (from what I've gathered) (I personally agree with him). The first time I took D&D players into Hero, every option was being celebrated. We ran basically an "our world" steam punk game with an inventor, cowboy, German combat mage, and two Elves. One player was too disconnected, so he left, it wasn't what he wanted out of a game. The rest of them enjoyed the options that were opened.
The dude that run's the FLGS here in town loves the old MERP/Rolemaster system, he views that as the best, however he has converted it to 3.x because the MERP system is a bit complex... and 3.x is EVERYWHERE.
I've got a buddy who thinks that GURPS is the best system on the market, though I can't get it. I've even got rid of all the books, because I can't make any sense of it at all... but I think that's because I'm TOO involved in the Hero system... I think I carry to much baggage from one game to the other.
Hope this answered your question to some sort of satisfaction.
I am thinking the OA book would be more like the DMG/MM where it would contain monsters and Rules for an oriental enviroment. So I could take it and make a new Oriental world where the book has now bias.
The OA for 4E would be a great idea and it would help able me to get another player in to a 4E game.
Now setting: I'd like to see Kara-tur come back but get cleaned up. Kara-tur was a great setting in the sense it covered almost all of Asia, in its number of cultures. The problem was many cultures were repeated because they also wanted to cover different time periods. There are at least 3 different Chinas and 2 Japans if I remember correctly, all based around different time periods of China and Japan.
I believe you had 2 China eras - Shou Lung and Tu Lung, and 2 Japanese eras – Kozakura and Wa.
As for other Asian cultures there was only one:
Koryo - Korea
Tabot – Tibet
Ra-Khati – Nepal
Malatra – South East Asia (Vietnam, Laos etc)
The Horse Plains – Mongolia
Raumvira – Russia (not technically Asia, but, you know)
Durpar, Var the Golden – India
Bawa - Taiwan
And yes, I really hope they don't slap the Ki power source on any class with a remotely Asian/Oriental sound to it.
I believe you had 2 China eras - Shou Lung and Tu Lung, and 2 Japanese eras – Kozakura and Wa.
As for other Asian cultures there was only one:
Koryo - Korea
Tabot – Tibet
Ra-Khati – Nepal
Malatra – South East Asia (Vietnam, Laos etc)
The Horse Plains – Mongolia
Raumvira – Russia (not technically Asia, but, you know)
Durpar, Var the Golden – India
Bawa - Taiwan
And yes, I really hope they don't slap the Ki power source on any class with a remotely Asian/Oriental sound to it.
Thats right, I thought there was a third for some reason. Maybe I was thinking of Bawa :P.
Anyway, I should note it is guaranteed you will not see Rokugan again. Its no longer WotC's IP and the company that owns it (AEG, who most of the old L5R Publishing Group work for now, and thus the guys who it belonged to in the first place) has no interest in porting it to a D&D system again. They released a new edition of the d10 system not long ago and are having great success with that.
first of all I would like to say that I would also appreciate a new Oriental Adventures Campaignguide as well as the Player's Guide. However, it is sheer impossible to cover all of asian cultures. Just within japanese settings it is possible to have a lot of different flavored campaings that are all leaned to historical settings. Yayoi-jidai (undiscovered) is completly different from Sengoku-jidai (civil war era) or Edo jidai (politically stable but also many traveling ronin and the dawn of the yakuza).
This is also perhaps the reason why I never really liked the L5R-Game. Basicly the world is preset and it does not really fit my idea of a japanese setting. The possibilities are limited and some things just seem not right to me. Well, my pretence for an asian setting might be a bit higher compared to the average gamer, because I used to live in Japan, practice kendo in my 9th year now and live in China at the moment.
I would recommend that the new 4E OA world should be done with the spirit of the new 4E core world. With that I mean that there should not be a world map and only few political structures. This way the DM has the most freedom and it is most compatible with the D&D core world. For inspiration (or DMs that do not like to read books about asian culture :P ) there can still be releases about Rokugan, Tara-tur or Al'Qadim in the Dungeon Magazine.
So much for the world. Also I wouldn't like to see KI as a powersource for everything. I believe just like someone posted before Samurai should be nothing else but martial. The anime samurai alá ninja scroll who can make ranged attacks with a sword swing should be the abolute exception!
For Ninja I believe it is very difficult to make a class, because the historical Shinobi were so much different from each other. At their time they were all going by different names (kusa, rappa, kage) and Ninja is only a modern word that we use today for a the different people that seemed similar to us. Some used to be Bushi, some where related to the mountain askets, some where originally just road bandits.
Perhaps I should stop writing here or the post will have no end.
In the end I just hope that, if there will be another OA that it will be made by people who know about the real cultures and do not simly copy from anime or other games like L5R, because they have to and get payed for it.
The Asian classes should just be in a PHB with new equipment, powers, and races (don't dilute them across several PHBs, tho'; have 'em flood a "Martial, Ki, etc" PHB, then think of more for future PHBs because European and generic classes keep piling on too!). I like the idea of harmonizing different cultures together in D&D (it's already happened before: chromatic dragons, radial elemental cosmology, Efreets, etc.), so I was happy the Oni was in the MM1.
Anyway, I think you wrote down some good points. Many, if not most oriental characters can be covered with existing classes (perhaps with new paragon paths as somebody wrote before, e.g. wu-jen for warlock?). Well some new need to be in the game if not introduced until then, like the monk for instance or miko/kanushi (devine striker with more warding rituals? ...by the way, for oriental settings the Magic Circle Ritual would more fit the religion skill). I can't think of any new class for arabian flavor campagns.
Oriental Adventures can and should be part of the new core world, what would completly match the present policy of WofC. This would leave the most possibilies for each campaign and the fans of the existing settings could be satisfied by the Dragon and Dungeon Magazine.
Nihao and Konnichiha to everyone,
first of all I would like to say that I would also appreciate a new Oriental Adventures Campaignguide as well as the Player's Guide. However, it is sheer impossible to cover all of asian cultures. Just within japanese settings it is possible to have a lot of different flavored campaings that are all leaned to historical settings. Yayoi-jidai (undiscovered) is completly different from Sengoku-jidai (civil war era) or Edo jidai (politically stable but also many traveling ronin and the dawn of the yakuza).
This is also perhaps the reason why I never really liked the L5R-Game. Basicly the world is preset and it does not really fit my idea of a japanese setting. The possibilities are limited and some things just seem not right to me. Well, my pretence for an asian setting might be a bit higher compared to the average gamer, because I used to live in Japan, practice kendo in my 9th year now and live in China at the moment.
I would recommend that the new 4E OA world should be done with the spirit of the new 4E core world. With that I mean that there should not be a world map and only few political structures. This way the DM has the most freedom and it is most compatible with the D&D core world. For inspiration (or DMs that do not like to read books about asian culture :P ) there can still be releases about Rokugan, Tara-tur or Al'Qadim in the Dungeon Magazine.
So much for the world. Also I wouldn't like to see KI as a powersource for everything. I believe just like someone posted before Samurai should be nothing else but martial. The anime samurai alá ninja scroll who can make ranged attacks with a sword swing should be the abolute exception!
For Ninja I believe it is very difficult to make a class, because the historical Shinobi were so much different from each other. At their time they were all going by different names (kusa, rappa, kage) and Ninja is only a modern word that we use today for a the different people that seemed similar to us. Some used to be Bushi, some where related to the mountain askets, some where originally just road bandits.
Perhaps I should stop writing here or the post will have no end.
In the end I just hope that, if there will be another OA that it will be made by people who know about the real cultures and do not simly copy from anime or other games like L5R, because they have to and get payed for it.
I am inclined to think that your extensive knowledge of Asian culture is base negative when it comes to this. The basis of this is simple. This game is about fantasy not Earth. Your mind comparing any of this to the real culture is unfair to both. The anime samurai is not the exception, he is the rule. The ninja is nothing like Japan's Ninja but rather a combining of movies, anime, pop culture and folk lore. Mostly Anime. Merely look at how close the PHB is modeled after medevil Europe (is not at all) and that is how close we can expect OA 4e to be.
Now, all what I was asking for is that the Oriental Adventures should be flexible enough to make all ideas fit that world, and not like in L5R where you find a predefined world that prohibits own campaign ideas. If you like to have a japanese settings where dire animals rule and there are only small samurai clans struggling to survive and the heroes are perhaps monster hunters, that roam the realm to sell their services, than it should be as possible as having a chinese flavored empire and PC rebels fighting against corruption. This is all possible within the new core world, but it would not if the game designers set the images of what the oriental world and the classes need to be to tight.
It is possible that someone wants all his ninja to be spellcasters because he wants his players to play in a world like the naruto-manga (in AD&D 2nd this was no problem with the shinobi-mage from the complete ninja handbook, one of the coolest books for the 2E ever). What I mean is, it does not matter where the inspiration is comming from. There should be place for everything, so DMs do not have to switch to another rp game to realise their ideas.
Well anyway, I am pretty sure what WotC will do a fine job with OA. About Eberron I am not that sure.
You are ofcourse right, but you are abusing the argument. I was never saying that the fantasy world should be 100% according to the history!
Word up. Besides, I'm sick and tired of having to look at another fantasy human that resembles a White European.
Even worse, a Japanese in an armor that resembles Germanic knight field plate.
Word up. Besides, I'm sick and tired of having to look at another fantasy human that resembles a White European.
Even worse, a Japanese in an armor that resembles Germanic knight field plate.
See, me, I don't mind my players using, say, Scale Mail and describing it as looking like a Chinese breastplate or Moorish banded armor, or whatever. Mechanically, it looks the same, but that encourages my players to do more than the cookie cutter chain mail look with their characters, which is something I like.
I, for one, would like to see something with a broad application. I like the Avatar setting so I would not be disappointed with it as a campaign backdrop, but I would not be disappointed with a set of tools for broader application either.
I also think the new design for 4e is set up very well for making abilities that capture the flavor of many Oriental styled settings. This may be one of the best designed systems for inserting Eastern flavor into D&D to date.
I just hope we see it sooner rather than later.
I did see a direct reference to Avatar: The Last Airbender in (I believe) the DMG.
I also think the new design for 4e is set up very well for making abilities that capture the flavor of many Oriental styled settings.
Could you explain a bit more why you think so and what reference you are refering to?
However, I would chop off the hands of whomever made an Oriental Adventures for 4E and tied it to Rokugan with a titanium katana. The 3.5 version of Rokugan in the OA book was HORRIBLE and I never want to see the likes of it again. d20 is a horrible match for Rokugan; for one thing it's not high magic and there are no dwarves in Rokugan. AEG managed to rescue Rokugan, but IMNSHO, d20 came close to destroying it's feel. I'd feel the same way about a d20 version of Vampire: The Masquerade - d20 just doesn't do it justice.
Unfortunately, I'm not overly fond of Karu-Tur either; it models the "real world" a little too closely and is fairly bland. I'd rather that they just build an oriental setting from scratch, much like they did with the Dragonfist setting.
I did not read the 3.5 OA, but I read through the L5R core rule book and I am afraid to say that I do not like the world. I can't understand why D&D would use it as campaign setting, but perhaps saving the R&D costs.
What about Kamigawa?
Yeah, Kamigawa seemed like a really interesting and flavourful Asian/Oriental world, that didn't emulate the real world too closely. And as Stormonu said, the Tianguo (Dragonfist) setting would be juicy too.
I do still have a soft spot for Kara-Tur.
In AD&D 2nd the second Ravenloft box (after the grand conjuction) there was also a Asian/Japanese domain.
Rokushima, was it?
There was also a Japanese themed moon orbiting Mystara, but I've forgotten the name (anybody?).
I loved 3.5 (and still do...). I love the idea of an oriental adventures book, and I wouldn't mind seeing one for 4E. And I absolutely love Rokugan.
Rokugan is better off in its own system since the 90's, provided by AEG.
Unfortunately, I'm not overly fond of Karu-Tur either; it models the "real world" a little too closely and is fairly bland. I'd rather that they just build an oriental setting from scratch, much like they did with the Dragonfist setting.
Meh. It models the real world because there is no other way to define an "oriental game world" any other way without being ridiculous.
As I stated before, seeing a Japanese samurai wearing Germanic plate is totally screwy (and I don't mean "plate" armor in game term).
Rokugan may be a product of post-modern Japan, since culturally and perhaps ironic, only criminals bears tattoo (and yakuza are fond of them).
Rokugan may be a product of post-modern Japan, since culturally and perhaps ironic, only criminals bears tattoo (and yakuza are fond of them).
Rokugan is no product of japan, is it? What does this have to do with any tattoo?
This was one of the major failures of the 3.X system and ultimately got to the point that it nearly ruined the game because a new player could not simply pick up a PHB and be reasonably confident that they had "what they needed to play". When compared to the mountain of material that had been hap hazardly released and the endless combinations of Feats, Spells, Pretige Classes, Items, etc etc etc amen! that a more experienced player (or simply one willing to drop more cash and time absorbing it) could put on the table our proverbial new player was very quickly over whelmed and turned off by the game.
4th ed at this point is at the stage where its entire life cycle is about to be determined. If it is used as a core system and new elements and components are built to accomidate that core system it will likely do quite well because the basic model will remain intact. On the other hand, if they reinvent the wheel from 3.X (which unfortunately seems likely) then within the 1.5 - 2.0 years we will have a full fleshed out system...and within 1.5 - 2.0 years from that point we will have a system which is so completely broken they will have to start looking at D&D version 5.0 whether they like it or not.
Lazlo
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I wouldn't mind seeing books on how to integrate touches of Asian, Arabian, African, and whatever other culture you tap's mythology into a D&D game, but I was glad to see that the Monstrous Manual took creatures from all over the world(Along with the original monsters, naturally.).
I just hope they have old favorites like the samurai, ninja, and wu jen as paragon paths instead of whole new classes; I'd rather space be given to new content instead of being told that my wizard has to be Europeanesque unless done in this new, slightly different way. But that's just my opinion, admittedly.
Could you explain a bit more why you think so and what reference you are refering to?
The reference was on page 133 of the DMG.
As far as powers go an example could be along the lines of the elemental powers in Avatar. The basic attacks used could be at will. The defenses could be utility powers, some at will, some encounter. Since all classes now have powers, it is easy to give to fighting classes and still give elemental powers to fighting classes.
Ninja infiltration capabilities could easily be utility powers. Their combat tricks could mostly reside in the encounter powers.
There is a lot of room for attack powers that promote maneuver as well.
Overall the system of powers for all classes will allow the developers to mix and match abilities so players can create unique effects that fits both historical and fictional campaigns.
Am I the only one who thinks that Rogues and many of their powers were already written with the idea of ninja in mind? Come on, look at it people, tell me I'm not the only one who thinks this way! :P
You're not alone!
Yeah, I agree, I think the rogue can handle the ninja just fine, same for fighter for samurai, the only Asian/Oriental concepts I can see needing to be a stand-alone class, and even then I think you can portray almost any concept with the existing and upcoming classes, but that's another discussion altogether, might be:
-Monk (he's a given – Ki Striker).
-Sohei/No-Sheng (Ki or Martial Defender)
-Shugenja (Elemental Controller)
…and…?
The reference was on page 133 of the DMG.
As far as powers go an example could be along the lines of the elemental powers in Avatar.
Thanks for mentioning this. Very interesting indeed!
Am I the only one who thinks that Rogues and many of their powers were already written with the idea of ninja in mind? Come on, look at it people, tell me I'm not the only one who thinks this way! :P
The shuriken speak for themselves.
-Monk (he's a given – Ki Striker).
-Sohei/No-Sheng (Ki or Martial Defender)
-Shugenja (Elemental Controller)
Why should Shugenja not be Arcane? I mean in my eyes they are not more elemental than the Warlock.
Why should Sohei not be divine? I guess it doesn't matter really.
Yamabushi, a mountain ascet would be very nice as crossover between ninja and spellcaster.
Kanushi / Miko as divine striker (archers) especially against unnatural targets and warding ritual caster would be interesting. Shinto priests even sell warding charms today.
The buddhist priest/ houshi can be covered by the cleric I believe, but would have to be modified a bit.
Today on ICS (some chinese channel) there was a documentry about "Storm Rider - Clash of the Evils". The movie will be coming out here soon and holds a lot of inspiration for ki martial artists like the monk, but perhaps with weapons and armor.
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=UhosXHL3Xj0&
1.) I mean in my eyes they are not more elemental than the Warlock.
2.) Why should Sohei not be divine?
1.) I definitely feel that shugenjas are tied closer to the elements than warlocks.
2.) Because they don't worship a god or pantheon?
For the record, I didn't say anything should be anything, as power sources are mainly fluff, we could have one power source: Power.
1.) I definitely feel that shugenjas are tied closer to the elements than warlocks.
Only if you're going with the crappy Rokugan-originating elementalist spellcaster. I personally prefer they get modeled after actual shugenja, which would make them closer to the 3.0 OA Shaman class. (Which, incidentally feels like a 3.0 update of the original 1st ed OA "shugenka", which was actually modeled after real world shugenja.) They would, thus, most likely be a divine class.
2.) Because they don't worship a god or pantheon?
Not really, sohei are holy warrior monks. They're very religious and their strength was drawn from the power of their faith, exactly like the 4e Paladin is portrayed. And since D&D paladins get their powers from faith in a D&D god instead of "strength" from the christian god, nothing says a sohei can't get power from a D&D god instead of their faith in Buddhism.
For the record, I didn't say anything should be anything, as power sources are mainly fluff, we could have one power source: Power.
Its true, but some power sources work better for some ideas than others.
You're not alone!
Yeah, I agree, I think the rogue can handle the ninja just fine, same for fighter for samurai, the only Asian/Oriental concepts I can see needing to be a stand-alone class, and even then I think you can portray almost any concept with the existing and upcoming classes, but that's another discussion altogether, might be:
Thanks for agreeing, but I don't so much mean can fill the role, I mean it seems it was written intentionally with the specific thought in mind to fill the role.
1.) Only if you're going with the crappy Rokugan-originating elementalist spellcaster. I personally prefer they get modeled after actual shugenja, which would make them closer to the 3.0 OA Shaman class.
2.) Not really, sohei are holy warrior monks. They're very religious and their strength was drawn from the power of their faith, exactly like the 4e Paladin is portrayed.
1.) Yeah, the more traditional Yamabushi type would be nice.
2.) As they were monks, it was more like enlightenment and contemplation and all of that, IMO, but saying that, I would have no problem with the paladin being the class to emulate a sohei.
Not really, sohei are holy warrior monks. They're very religious and their strength was drawn from the power of their faith, exactly like the 4e Paladin is portrayed. And since D&D paladins get their powers from faith in a D&D god instead of "strength" from the christian god, nothing says a sohei can't get power from a D&D god instead of their faith in Buddhism.
It kind of remind me of the spiritualities/philosophies of Kara-tur and the Kalashtar/Inspired belives.
You can have religions, cults and clerics that don't follow the 'one of the gods' traditional form.
(Sohei would be a good class for Sarlona and the Kalshtar...)
That said, I really don't think we'll be seeing Rokugan again in the 4E line. Don't get me wrong, I like Rokugan, with it's China meets Japanese Sensabilities kinda of thing, but Rokugan is too complex and ever evolving to really use as a setting. I much rather see a more stable campaign setting.
It's a wonderful thing that the audiance is now much better educated to what the Orient means, though, and that gives so much room for different expressions of the setting. The developer of OA did have a thing for Indain Mythology. Perhaps he'd be willing to develop a new Campaign that can carve out a new hog-pog, using Indian, Sian, Tibetian, and Chinese influnces? Not that there shouldn't be a more Japanese style setting as well, but there is ideas to be had in the Western Far East.
Rokugan is better off in its own system since the 90's, provided by AEG.
Obviously, you missed my disdain for the d20 version of Rokugan.
1.) I definitely feel that shugenjas are tied closer to the elements than warlocks.
2.) Because they don't worship a god or pantheon?
1. There is a good book about Shugendo and Yamabushi if you are more interested in this topic. It is called "the catalpa bow".
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1873410859/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
2. Just to let you know, there are gods in Japanese buddhism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism
Two gods that could be especially worshiped by Sohei would be Marashiten or Benten.
But's it's Mahayana (?) buddhism, which is quite different from others big denominational groups. Zen, while Mahayana, is an example of one branch that is not very worship-based.
Will there be a 4E Oriental Adventures supplement?
As I have read 2 the new 4th edition core books (skimmed 1) I have noticed there seem to be small links to an oriental setting. On page 137 of the DMG there is a Wuxia campaign theme. On page 200-201 of the MM there is the monster Oni; Oni is the main evil race in the Oriental Adventures supplement released in 2001 for v3.5. So far I have not seen any link to an oriental setting in the PH but that is the book I have only skimmed through, something could be there.
Don't know if you'd count it but in the PHB there are shuriken as a ranged superior weapon.
Obviously, you missed my disdain for the d20 version of Rokugan.
The one by AEG? They had to correct what wasn't right in the OA book published by WotC.
AFAIC, OA is made for D&D.
AEG's Rokugan is purely third-party d20 (no D&D stigma).
But the best rules for Rokugan is L5R, where it all began for that world.
I have said this time and time again. WotC should never have used Rokugan to introduce the new OA. They also should never have sold the IP, when they can just license it to AEG, and continue to get a share of L5R 3e sales revenue.
One more thing. The only 3.5e version of OA is in the magazine. OA was never updated to 3.5e, among other 3.0e products.
What about Kamigawa?
Silly Naru, Kamigawa's for card games.:D
Seriously though; I've been trying to create models of how to create certain types of characters here in the style of the Character Conversion articles.
So far, I've really only worked on Samurai(time restraints), but pretty much I've noticed, using your imagination, you can work any character type really well within the PHB.
They may not be the best choices/combinations, but they seem fine enough in theory.
The Sohei is pretty much embodied by the Paladin, as is. We could theoretically use other classes with the specific names, but IMHO, 4E has pretty much hit the nail on the head when it comes to general classes that can embody any archetype.
Now, that does take a little of the flavour provided by MMOs and RPGs like FFXI which made it enjoyable to play a powerful class that was diversified by others because of abilities with certain restrictions and abilities, but seriously, why have a class that can only Tank? A class that can only deal damage? A class that does both suboptimally?
The FFXI Samurai class was limited to 2h katana. Couldn't dual-wield. and was lousy with bows and spears.
Compare that to the 3.5 Samurai of DnD which did it's best dual-wielding (though not any better than a Ranger), and pretty much had little room to diversify or excell using it's weapons.
And with 4E, using my examples or your own, you can pretty much make any type of "Samurai" you want.
But what we need in 4E is a Martial Striker than can use 2h weapons. Fighters can deal good damage, but ultimately parties need them to mark targets, take a few blows, and keep monsters from the squishies,
A longsword wielding Samurai is then stuck in either the Leader or Defender Roles because neither Rangers or Rogues can by RAW use 2h martial melee weapons with their powers.
UNLESS we reflavor the Ranger to, instead of wielding two weapons and making attacks with each of them, wield one 2h weapon and make two attacks with it; I have a ranger elf in my campaign that dual wields bastard swords, which is in essence using the same stats for one weapon twice, which can make a logical argument for a 2h Ranger. Not a significant change, but it's big enough to require that we issue a statement advising DMs to think outside the box when saying "No" to reflavoring classes.
Or we can have a Martial 2h W Striker class, call it the Sasaki Samurai and feel proud we needed to do more work than actually necessary.
But specifically on the topic of an OA for 4E; my mind is made up:
4E OA doesn't need a setting, it doesn't need Paragon Paths or Epic Destinies specifically for Asian Cultures.
4E OA needs info on how to run an OA campaign with the classes in the PHB, provide more weapons (oriental weapons that can't simply be renamed, like the Chijiriki, sai, jutte, kusari-gama (effectively a sickle with a chain), etc.
OA Monsters from across the Far East.
Powers.
Equipment and Riding Animals.
A little info on the differences between the cultures and how to run a game with them (under such adventure headlines similar to the Wuxia in the DMG).
And maybe a class or two that can't currently be emulated under the RAW or reflavored.
And that's it.
OA for 4E should be pretty light in classes and PPs so that we can have room for more content.
ALso, forgot player races. (but it's linked to Monsters)
The one by AEG? They had to correct what wasn't right in the OA book published by WotC.
AFAIC, OA is made for D&D.
AEG's Rokugan is purely third-party d20 (no D&D stigma).
But the best rules for Rokugan is L5R, where it all began for that world.
I have said this time and time again. WotC should never have used Rokugan to introduce the new OA. They also should never have sold the IP, when they can just license it to AEG, and continue to get a share of L5R 3e sales revenue.
One more thing. The only 3.5e version of OA is in the magazine. OA was never updated to 3.5e, among other 3.0e products.
Actually AEG were taken over by wizards, they had no choice. Then Wizards shut down the d10 L5R. A few months later they released the 3.0 OA, then AEG was able to get their IP back from Wizards (other than the novels and some of the card game, then later I know they got the card game back, don't know what happened to the line of books) and after some re-structuring have come back up to full production with their d10 line again with 3rd edition.
Alright, history time.
Alderac was the publisher for the Five Rings Publishing Group which was the company that made the L5R/LBS properties.
FRPG got bought by Wizards, and then the Hidden Emperor stuff come up. They tried to release the FRPG card games using the Rolling Thunder method, which ended up oversaturating the card market with multiple games. In the end, you had L5R, LBS, and Doomtown competing with each other for space on shelves, which was good for none of these properties. As a result, LBS and Doomtown had trouble getting started (despite how awesome Doomtown was) and Doomtown only made it through the first story arc before it had to be shut down. LBS was aborted in its infancy, and only the hardcore fandom of L5R kept it going.
Then, legal troubles with the Olympics finally kicked in, and L5R was forced to change its cardbacks. Wizards then looked for a buyer for FRPG and its associated intellectual properties. Alderac, who had been publishing the non-d20 rpg books for the entire time bought the FRPG properties, with the caveat that Wizards could use Rokugan as an example of an Oriental Adventures setting (notice, it was not the only one provided in the OA 3.0 book, the book was designed around -any- oriental setting, providing stuff in it that was NOT appropriate to Rokugan)
Alderac then published the d20/d10 hybrid books, the Rokugan d20 setting to flesh out the wizards stuff, and eventually, when d20 stopped being the industry's form of crack cocaine, they phased it out.
No, d20 was not the best fit for Rokugan. the L5Rrpg's combat system was based on a single conversation with a katana swordsman.
'How many attacks can you potentially land on an enemy in 30 seconds?'
'One.'
'Um... but you swing your sword many times... I mean you have to hit more than once, so really, how many?'
'One.'
'How is that even feasible?'
'Because if you cut them once with a katana, they are dead.'
And thusly, L5R's very brutal and deadly combat system was born.
Samurai - ki leader
Sohei - ki defender
Ninja - ki striker-controller
Monk - ki striker.
Shugenja - elemental leader
Wu Jen - elemental controller.
Witch hunter? Yakuza?
I would like the return of nezumi/ratking, and the korokoboru (oriental dwarfs/gnomes), the henyengokai (changeshifter) and bakemono (oriental gobling).
One designer quoted in a directly related way that he loved Al-Qadim, and that an Arabian Adventures was not out of question. And since 'oriental' stuff always had a market, well.. It's possible.
I'd like both, and a Nyambe or equivalent too, please.
As crazy as I am about OA (majored in Japanese Language / Culture in college), I would love even more a revival of Al Qadim. That whole setting was brilliant, I loved the Sha'ir, all of it.
Sometimes I wish WotC upper creativity staff would open their own little companies and publishes with the SRD / OGL / whatever. Or it'd be great if they sold the intellectual property. It'd be fun to see these titles.
No, no, no, no...None of this 4E naming...let the Asian feel stay the way it is.
The 'naming' is just design terminology. It won't be litteraly the class names.
(Also, one should not forget that in game terms =/= out of game ones.)
Actually -Alderac- was never owned by Wizards/Hasbro.
Alright, history time.
Alderac was the publisher for the Five Rings Publishing Group which was the company that made the L5R/LBS properties.
FRPG got bought by Wizards, and then the Hidden Emperor stuff come up. They tried to release the FRPG card games using the Rolling Thunder method, which ended up oversaturating the card market with multiple games. In the end, you had L5R, LBS, and Doomtown competing with each other for space on shelves, which was good for none of these properties. As a result, LBS and Doomtown had trouble getting started (despite how awesome Doomtown was) and Doomtown only made it through the first story arc before it had to be shut down. LBS was aborted in its infancy, and only the hardcore fandom of L5R kept it going.
Then, legal troubles with the Olympics finally kicked in, and L5R was forced to change its cardbacks. Wizards then looked for a buyer for FRPG and its associated intellectual properties. Alderac, who had been publishing the non-d20 rpg books for the entire time bought the FRPG properties, with the caveat that Wizards could use Rokugan as an example of an Oriental Adventures setting (notice, it was not the only one provided in the OA 3.0 book, the book was designed around -any- oriental setting, providing stuff in it that was NOT appropriate to Rokugan)
Alderac then published the d20/d10 hybrid books, the Rokugan d20 setting to flesh out the wizards stuff, and eventually, when d20 stopped being the industry's form of crack cocaine, they phased it out.
No, d20 was not the best fit for Rokugan. the L5Rrpg's combat system was based on a single conversation with a katana swordsman.
'How many attacks can you potentially land on an enemy in 30 seconds?'
'One.'
'Um... but you swing your sword many times... I mean you have to hit more than once, so really, how many?'
'One.'
'How is that even feasible?'
'Because if you cut them once with a katana, they are dead.'
And thusly, L5R's very brutal and deadly combat system was born.
Wow, ok, so there is some of that I didn't know. like the whole FRPG IP thing, and AEG just publishing... it's now been added to my mountains of useless information.
No, d20 was not the best fit for Rokugan. the L5Rrpg's combat system was based on a single conversation with a katana swordsman.
I disagree.
It may not be a best fit than the original roll-n-keep system, but it can be done for d20. It just cannot be done with WotC's approach to d20 (via D&D).
After all, AEG did published Spycraft which uses the d20 System far different from WotC's d20 Modern.
One designer quoted in a directly related way that he loved Al-Qadim, and that an Arabian Adventures was not out of question. And since 'oriental' stuff always had a market, well.. It's possible.
I'd like both, and a Nyambe or equivalent too, please.
I played in a 3.5e Al-Qadim game, and it was awesome. That is one hot setting! (pun intended). I was a Earth Gensai Kahin named Hafiz (after the famous sufi poet). Fun, fun, fun. One great memory was when we accidentally released an efreeti from years of confinement and it slurped up one of the offending characters (not Hafiz, luckily) and took them off to serve as a slave.
I also love the oriental adventures setting, though I have not actually played in one since 1st edition (well, I used to run an ancient chinese/steampunk/fantasy game using GURPS 1st edition, but that was also long, long ago). I do think that the 4e rules, with their various combat maneuvers are well suited for eastern style fantasy, and I do love eastern mythology, fantasy, and folklore.
Even though I never played Oriental Adventures during 3/3.5 era I always loved it due to its oriental setting. I really do hope they bring out a 4e version since I want to roll a Dragonborn Samurai since their code of honor is perfect for that class.
You missed the part where WotC no longer own Rokugan IP.
Gawd help me if they spend what precious money they have to get a license from a formerly owned IP from AEG.
Sorry, there's no going back to Rokugan d20. Play the original rules by AEG, now in its Third Edition.
In Summary, Legend of the Five Rings = Rokugan.
All three Gargantua of course.
Bel
L5R is more... intrigues and conspiration. D&D is "find and kill the monster".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia
I would like after a "Oriental Adventures II: 1001 nights" (Middle East+India setting), with the return of sha´ir like elemental controller class.
OA III would be Kara-tur: player guide.
-------
Yamabushi would be a new class, like a oriental shaman/druid.
3rd edition OA and its d20-ization of Rokugan, a (as much as they try and deny it) heavily Japanese-inspired setting, came in a time when America was once again captivated by Japanese media. With the flood of Anime, growing numbers of otaku (FUNFACT: that term is actually an insult :P) and movies like The Last Samurai, it was only logical to hop on the bandwagon.
Now, as I already pointed out, our focus has shifted to China. We've got Mummy 3, Avatar, a plethora of martial arts inspired cartoons filling Cartoon Network's airwaves, Best Buy's shelves being filled with Hong Kong action movies and wuxia films, and the Olympics of course. As a whole we've become captivated with Chinese culture. Thus its very easy to conclude the next installment of OA will be Chinese focused.
We can sit here and wish and want to our hearts' desire. I myself wouldn't mind a Kara-Tur revamp. But I think the evidence stands for itself.
A blending of everything, some creativity applied...
I wouldn't mind a new 'oriental' setting who leans out of Japan more - and more of China, too; indian stuff are rare and untapped, by example.
Kara-Tur have two Chinese-flavored nations and cultures.
The remaining PHB, "Elemental, Psionic and Shadow Heroes" could be essentially a Planescape/Spelljammer-lite book, as it would almost certainly contain things like the Gith and other "planar" player elements.
I don't like the amalgamation of the east and west that started in third edition. Shurikens and KAtana's are extremely rare on the western continents. Found occasionally but a PC has to have a good backstory for why they have the equiptment. THe only way they can find them by accident is through my adventures.
WIth that said I love the OA settings. I hope they put one out.
Why not draw on all of the world for inspiration? Don't that end up otehrwise 'gimicking' non-'whiteys' things?
As some poster brought once, why 'oriental' and 'occidental' stuff have to be secluded? Why fantasy hve to work along reality's cultural lines, when it come to non-euro, non-feudal stuff?
Why not draw on all of the world for inspiration? Don't that end up otehrwise 'gimicking' non-'whiteys' things?
I am not saying how ANYTHING should work. For my game I want the Oriental separate from the western. I am not claiming D&D should follow suit even if I would like it too (and I would). I prefer 100% European in the main campaign area. THen I make "areas or continents" where the other cultural types can be found, mimicking the climate of areas where cultures can be found on earth.
I like the forgotten realms because they have those areas.
A world that is an amalgamation between east and west is great for individual worlds. I prefer to have my campaign based off of history.
WIth planar outsiders however I usually do mix the cultures. The planes don't care about MAterial Prime cultures.
My guess, and this is only a guess, is that instead of an "Oriental Adventures" setting, per se, we will get a PHB3 or PHB4 that includes "Elemental, Ki and Shadow Heroes".
This would be a great approach! I'd love to see these classes rolled into a core PHB 3 or PHB 4 based on power source, and released as part of the annual PHB releases they've alluded. Although that could mean waiting until at least Spring of 2010, right?
Yes, a fantasy world needs to resemble the our real world in some ways or we could start calling a horse a rabbit and the other way. For game settings many DM draw there inspiration from the historical world or movies that are based on it. Often I spend hours in researching for an adventure I make and the players are usually happy to find things they might have heard about. THIS is the reason why people WANT to play oriental adventures! They want to find cool elements from eastern culture in the game that they have faced before in anime or movies of the Hongkong action genre.
In this way I plead again for a setting that will allow all ideas and give the maximum of freedom to the DM while providing enough inspiration and innovative rules making it unique.
Could somebody please stop bringing up races in this thread? The artwork is just fluff so you can change that it you like and introduce a thrid eye on the forhead to all humanoids if you like (actually this is a pretty cool idea
). Also please have a look at the rogue girl on PHB46.Also please have a look at the rogue girl on PHB46.
i looked and i looked again:D
From your point of view many fantasy campaign settings seem to be european, but as a matter of fact for us europeans often the fantasy worlds seem very much american from the way who people live in interact which is perhaps because the worlds where designed by americans.
Yes, a fantasy world needs to resemble the our real world in some ways or we could start calling a horse a rabbit and the other way. For game settings many DM draw there inspiration from the historical world or movies that are based on it. Often I spend hours in researching for an adventure I make and the players are usually happy to find things they might have heard about. THIS is the reason why people WANT to play oriental adventures! They want to find cool elements from eastern culture in the game that they have faced before in anime or movies of the Hongkong action genre.
In this way I plead again for a setting that will allow all ideas and give the maximum of freedom to the DM while providing enough inspiration and innovative rules making it unique.
Occidental, then..
The point was maybe badly stated; more like it seemed that 'oriental' settings always had the need to be close to real history and cultures - really close - or it was badwrongfun (like the oriental adventures section witnessed now and then). Or wrong (bringing race activism and such).
So, why not making original, like 'euro' stuff seems to be allowed to?
So, why not making original, like 'euro' stuff seems to be allowed to?
No matter how different they make it, they all have the same euro cultural references, down to the codpiece.
Oh, sure, they tried to make it exotic looking by adding spikes on armor. :P
No matter how different they make it, they all have the same euro cultural references, down to the codpiece.
Oh, sure, they tried to make it exotic looking by adding spikes on armor. :P
I was being serious, ya know...
(Also, do you implies that only asian writters could do justice there?
Because it was a part of that - 'you need a real X to write X things'.)I was being serious, ya know...
I know.
No matter how much they tried to make it "Not Euro," it still look and feel Eurocentric to me. So why deny it?
In other news: While I hated AEG's L5R system, the 3E OA treatment it received was so half-assed that there may as well have not been a d20 Rokugan game. And the worst part of that is that the OA book suffered from all the Rokugan stuff that was crammed in like a square peg in a round hole.
Personally, what I really want is a 4E Dragonfist game.
Yeah, I would love to see Tianguo get more fleshed out, d20 4th Ed style. The schools/gangs (red tigers etc) could be special feats or maybe paragon paths…?
Maybe a bit of the Stunt action could come back in some form.
I know.
No matter how much they tried to make it "Not Euro," it still look and feel Eurocentric to me. So why deny it?
Yes and no - the only really inescapable 'euroness' would be the base, core bits of the game; 'kill and take their stuff' as so frequently called.
Why not try it though to make it more 'neutral', culturaly? Especialy when the base is not so white bread anymore.
Why not try it though to make it more 'neutral', culturaly? Especialy when the base is not so white bread anymore.
Because at its core D&D is Western Fantasy, with bits of other aspects thrown in.
The point of supplements like OA is to make those bits the focus, instead of an addition.
Every OA installment followed media trends. 1st ed OA and Kara-tur came out in an time when the US (I would say world, but that might be too blanket-y of a statement) was captivated by films from all over Asia (including Bollywood movies), and China and Japan were all over the news. Asia as a whole was "new territory" for most of the Western peoples, and Kara-tur was very "all encompassing" for this very reason.
Meh. The mainland US is slow on the uptake. Lucky I live in Hawaii.
3rd edition OA and its d20-ization of Rokugan, a (as much as they try and deny it) heavily Japanese-inspired setting, came in a time when America was once again captivated by Japanese media. With the flood of Anime, growing numbers of otaku (FUNFACT: that term is actually an insult :P) and movies like The Last Samurai, it was only logical to hop on the bandwagon.
Then don't use the "O" word, which is a modern Japanese slang for "obsessive fan." That's like calling a D&D fan a "fanboy."
Meh. Again, US is slow on the uptake. The Last Samurai may have brought mainlander an interest in Japan and their samurai, we in Hawaii have enjoyed many years of Taiga Historical Drama and shows like Abarenbo Shogun. Again, lucky I live in Hawaii.
Now, as I already pointed out, our focus has shifted to China. We've got Mummy 3, Avatar, a plethora of martial arts inspired cartoons filling Cartoon Network's airwaves, Best Buy's shelves being filled with Hong Kong action movies and wuxia films, and the Olympics of course. As a whole we've become captivated with Chinese culture. Thus its very easy to conclude the next installment of OA will be Chinese focused.
We can sit here and wish and want to our hearts' desire. I myself wouldn't mind a Kara-Tur revamp. But I think the evidence stands for itself.
Meh. I've always have interest in pre-Communist Chinese culture, ever since watching Kung Fu Black Belt theatre here. Young'uns here have their Jet Li to look up to, I had Bruce Lee.
Doesn't matter to me. My gripe is having to follow fan interest in the mainland. If I have to wait for a sourcebook on samurai, then so be it.
Again, lucky I live in Hawaii.
Yes, you are! I lived on Maui (Olinda/Makawao) for 6 years. I plan to move back there as soon as I can.
And I totally know what you're talking about with all the Asian cultural influences.
Because at its core D&D is Western Fantasy, with bits of other aspects thrown in.
The point of supplements like OA is to make those bits the focus, instead of an addition.
Actually...a lot of D&D is kind of like middle eatern and around antiquity stuff than euro-feudal. Less Geste de Roland, more tale of Gilgamesh.
For me, D&D could use to look around much more. It won't diluate or kill the classic euro-fantasy stuff.
Actually...a lot of D&D is kind of like middle eatern and around antiquity stuff than euro-feudal. Less Geste de Roland, more tale of Gilgamesh.
For me, D&D could use to look around much more. It won't diluate or kill the classic euro-fantasy stuff.
You raise a valid point.
What I also mean when I say "Western Fantasy" is that its also filled with Western delusions of non-European cultures. (The parts that it includes)
I'm of the camp that feels "but its fantasy" isn't an excuse to propagate ignorance. :P
Why not try it though to make it more 'neutral', culturaly? Especialy when the base is not so white bread anymore.
Neutral? Sounds more like devoid of culture, or a culture so alien you cannot relate or reference from? Even then we still fall back because of our own education and experience.
To do so, you might as well eliminate the benchmark human race & culture from the game.
Personally, what I really want is a 4E Dragonfist game. And for Green Ronin to suffer for teasing me with a d20-esque Dragonfist game for years and never delivering. I'm not bitter or spiteful...
Yes, you are. Chris feel bad about what happened, so he won't say anything until he's very very sure he can release the product.
So far, nothing.