I came into D&D toolate for 3.5e.
I personally don't like the name of the line; Oriental Adventures is very, um, distasteful to me, and what I think 4e is trying to accomplish... In fact, since the setting (Kara-Tur) is a part of Forgotten Realms now, it might be best to rename the line all together...
IDK what it could be named, but I would like to reiterate the fact that I don't like the name of the line. It would be just like calling Al-Quadim "Arabic Adventures" and Maztica "American Adventures."
If one names the settings for the regions of the Forgotten Realms which they are set in, however, then it might be acceptable. Then, WotC would also be supporting their own previous products (FR) with "Expansions" to their settings.
As for "Oriental Adventures" Rokugan, well, if WotC did it in 3.5, I don't see why they don't put out a Rokugan book for 4e... So long as they call it Rokugan.
As for "Oriental Adventures" Rokugan, well, if WotC did it in 3.5, I don't see why they don't put out a Rokugan book for 4e... So long as they call it Rokugan.
WotC no longer has the IP for Rokugan, which is just as well. It was a pretty lame setting (but then, I have that opinion of all futile ... I mean, feudal Japanese settings). If they do anything resembling Oriental Adventures in 4e, they'll probably just found a new campaign setting not related to either Rokugan or FR. And that's a fairly big if.
WotC no longer has the IP for Rokugan, which is just as well. It was a pretty lame setting (but then, I have that opinion of all futile ... I mean, feudal Japanese settings). If they do anything resembling Oriental Adventures in 4e, they'll probably just found a new campaign setting not related to either Rokugan or FR. And that's a fairly big if.
Agreed.
(ie, not have class restrictions like the 3.5 OA book did)
You know, like many D&D rules past and present, that was also optional. Though, I suppose its a moot point since this isn't really discussing 3.5 OA...
Re-doing Kara-tur could work quite well, and it would be nice to see them detail the whole planet FR takes place on, as opposed to just the 2 continents we have now for 4e.
I hope that any setting for an OA book would be completely new.
One of the problems with naming it something else is that in order to convey to the real world that it is flavored after the Asian/Oriental parts of the real world they have to name it something that most folks will associate with non europe. I suppose they could call it the Far East ( especially when talking about the FR Kara-Tur setting), rather than Oriental Adventures. But in truth thats just trying to be politically correct. Not that being politically correct is a bad thing, especially in this over sensitive age, but still, they have to call it something to differentiate from regular european flavored D&D.
I'm willing to bet that the closest we get to it will be PHB 3 and 4. Both should have ki classes and elementalists like the Wu Jen and maybe Sha'ir. So odds are, in my opinion, that the later PHBs will have a subtle enough "asian" flavor that you can easily make your own OA with them.
You can do that now.
A campaign making good use of Asian elements might scratch the OA itch. Rules for specific cultures, like vows, orders, mercenary village codes, and political structure layouts, instantaneous rituals for hedge magic/blessings/curses, seems like it would best fall into a setting book.
On a (almost) completely irrelevant note: What happened to the races in 4e? They're all gone
And they completely messed up half-elves.True, there are a few things like the kensai and the future monk class but that's not nearly enough to create an Asian flavoured campaign setting. And as I recall, devas are Middle Eastern. Assyrian was it? Though I like that they added oni. :D But you can't have a feudal Japan setting without kitsune. ;) Or an Indian one without gaki.
I thought devas were Indian/South Asian. Just what I remember, though.
I am definitely a gamer awaiting a 4e OA treatment!
As a side note, however, I would like a setting name other than Oriental Adventures, regardless of whether they recycle Kara-Tur or Rokugan.I'd also like it to pull from many different Asian mythologies. They don't need a name that captures "all" of fantasy Asia. They just need to give the new setting core elements in addition to being "Asiany" and then find a cool name for the planet/continent.
(For example, I have a homebrew based on Southeast Asia that emphasizes swashbuckling, new vs. old, tropical seafaring, etc....not just "SE Asiany stuff.")I'm sure they'll get around to a fantasy asiany setting sooner or later, likely after Elemental and Ki are released, as already mentioned, since those would probably be rather central power sources in many or most campaigns styled that way. Not necessarily so, though, and I personally wouldn't mind an earlier release. :D
Oh, yeah! And I want JAMES WYATT to do it (& maybe some fresh faces if he needs help). I like his work and I appreciated his forward in 3e OA.
:bounce: :P Yes, I agree. Wyatt is one of WotC's best.
What would be a good idea in my opinion for creating a new campaign setting (I don't like the idea of expanding on Faerun, then they'd still have to conform to some of the rules of it like the Spellplague. If they're going to go ahead and make something as different as an oriental setting they might as well put it on a different planet. If you want to remake Kara-tur after it comes out go ahead.) is something more along the lines of three or four nations that are each modeled (albeit sufficiently loosely) on China, Japan, India, and Middle East or Pacific Island (or both). That could allow for the background bonuses like in FR. And before anyone says anything like "That would be way too hard! Four different cultures in one?!" Let me point out Eberron. Demon Wastes, Mournland, Lhazaar Prinicpalities. How similar are they? Not to mention Sarlona and Xen'drik. Then of course if you add in the planes...
And speaking of the Spellplague and campaign setting... somethings... (can't think of what I'm trying to say...) They don't really need to to completely scrap Rokugan (though I do agree, TCG settings don't make good D&D ones). For instance, I liked the Taint idea and it could make for a good symbol of the setting. Like 4e FR has the Spellplague and Eberron has steampunk-like technology.
Rokugan has been a great influence, but now it isn´t necessary. We can get the background of Kara-tur and create new factions.
I imagine a book of Kara-tur for DMs, like Forgoten Realms guide, and a OA for players, like OA player´s handbook. I would like a OA2 with the name of "1001 nights" (no Arabian nights, please) for campagins with style of al-Qadim.
And a 4th Ed Al-Qadim would make me happy as a little girl.
I don't see WotC doing a two book (Campaign Guide/Player's Guide) + adventure combo for OA like they did for FR or Eberron but they could take that approach. Although, they're only doing those once a year it seems and only doing OA would be an odd choice I would think.
Another option could be a new campaign setting that includes OA inspired material and settings but isn't an attempt at a straight feudal Japan or whatever.
I suspect at a minimum we'll see traditional OA classes like Samurai, Ninja and Wu Jen show up in PHB3 or a later book.
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I would prefer for them to make an original campaign setting that is inspired by Eastern mythology in the same way that Faeurn is inspired by high fantasy or Eberron by steampunk. Something that captures the feel of it while still being original. Please dont do Rokugun. If I want that setting I'll play the Legend of the Five Rings game.
Eberron is not steampunk.
Eberron is not steampunk.
While I agree, there are certainly many parts of Eberron that are similar to steampunk, which is my point. I want something that stands on its own two feat as opposed to "generic fantasy Japan."
Edit: Maybe I'm thinking of a different term. Cyberpunk maybe. I'm specifically talking about the magic as technology aspect.
While I agree, there are certainly many parts of Eberron that are similar to steampunk, which is my point. I want something that stands on its own two feat as opposed to "generic fantasy Japan."
Edit: Maybe I'm thinking of a different term. Cyberpunk maybe. I'm specifically talking about the magic as technology aspect.
I think a better term would be "inspired by." Eberron is partially inspired by steam/cyberpunk, as well as film noir. But, the setting is unique, and uniquely D&D. If the same idea happened for an "Oriental" setting... Well, that's what you are getting at, right?
I think that would be a good idea. Take Asian themes/overtones/conceites/etc. and spin them in a way to make a unique setting that is also uniquely D&D (4e.) That would be a good idea for a setting.
I think a better term would be "inspired by." Eberron is partially inspired by steam/cyberpunk, as well as film noir. But, the setting is unique, and uniquely D&D. If the same idea happened for an "Oriental" setting... Well, that's what you are getting at, right?
I think that would be a good idea. Take Asian themes/overtones/conceites/etc. and spin them in a way to make a unique setting that is also uniquely D&D (4e.) That would be a good idea for a setting.
Exactly.
I think the direction books like Oriental Adventures need to take is that of helping the DM design lands & adventures that feel like they're taking place in the cultural setting of choice. This should be more than just fluff. While it's nice to be given an adventure in a tea house instead of a tavern, this palls if the adventure is the same-old same-old.
If classes are left out, and paragon paths & epic destinies kept under control, I can envisage a line of "real-world setting" sourcebooks that fit at least two cultures in them. The Asian and Arabian cultures would make a good pairing, and a fine first book. I'd call it Sun and Sand.
Now, if WoTC made nice, nice with Green Ronin and maybe got the rights for Dragon Fist or something...I might be tickled pinkish.
That said. What would be your reaction if PHB3 featured Ki and the Asian themed setting?
That said. What would be your reaction if PHB3 featured Ki and the Asian themed setting?
I'd be slightly annoyed. I don't want them wasting room in a PHB with setting info. It takes room away from new classes, etc. Plus they wouldn't have enough room to fully flesh out a campaign.
As a side note, Asian settings dont need to be dominated by ki and martial arts. There are other cool aspects of eastern mythology that I hope would have an equal amount of space.
I'd be slightly annoyed. I don't want them wasting room in a PHB with setting info. It takes room away from new classes, etc. Plus they wouldn't have enough room to fully flesh out a campaign.
Sorry, I mean. Ki as featured in PHB 3, with an Asian themed setting as the companion to it later in the year.
Sorry, I mean. Ki as featured in PHB 3, with an Asian themed setting as the companion to it later in the year.
That's alright. Earlier in the thread I didnt get my point across well. That would be nice. I dont think it will happen because some developers have been hinting that it's going to be an older setting and not a new one.
The genre of D&D settings overtly inspired by real-world cultures has more candidates than Asia. Why not Arabian Adventures, Norse Adventures, Egyptian Adventures, or African Adventures? Any of these could be just as resonant with players as an Oriental Adventures sourcebook.
Though I agree that cultural diversity is good and all, the Arabian is almost completely there in the core books. And it could easily be supplemented by an "Oriental" supplement, as they did with the original OA (though you knida had to look for it... It also had stuff you could use for an Egyptian setting in addition to mummies, etc from core books). Norse is very much the same as mainstream D&D just take out a little here and there (where do you think giants and dwarves come from?). African would be interesting though, and a Aztec-y/Maya/Native American supplement could be useful too.
Another reason that I think that Oriental would probably go higher on the production list than any of those, though is that the fanbase for Asain campaign settings is, I'm quite certain, the largest next to mainstream/European.
...On the topic of other settings a Renaissance setting would be nice, too. Not like Eberron, and not necessarily with less magic, but firearms can be an interesting addition... A lower tech level would be taken care of with the African/Native American settings...
I thought devas were Indian/South Asian. Just what I remember, though.
Actually, Devas originated from the RigVeda, which has its origins around the Northwest coast of the Caspian Sea. It's also possible that Devas refer to a Afro-Asiatic people, just as their counterparts, the Asuras, may refer to the Assyrians (this is a conjecture made by some ethnolinguists who deal with the study of mythology). But personally I think the race is more similar to the RigVedic Asuras, who were beings of moral fiber and astral essence, than the Devas, who were elemental spirits of the primordial world. Of course, since Devas became the gods of Hinduism and Asuras were demonized, I can't blame WotC for not doing the research... especially if they would have just looked at Zoroastrianism that maintains that moral vs elemental divide between it's astral Ahuras and demonic Devas.
That said and done, Devas are definitely an Indo-European concept, similar to the deities of European mythologies. That doesn't bar it from the Oriental feel and the influence Hinduism has had on truly East Asian cultures, through Buddhism and other pathways (Angkor, etc). If there's an OA in the future, I hope it will only come out once all 4 Core Ki classes have been released, and hopefully it will add more to the mix as well.
I'm looking at a 2011 OA release, as Dark Sun seems to be the favoured contender for the 2010 Campaign Setting. Still, it's not unthinkable that PHBIII could have 4 Ki classes and 2 each of two other power sources, thus allowing a 2010 OA release.
Vanara was a good example of a non-Chinese, non-Japanese race that fit into OA (they were Hindu Monkey Spirits that followed Hanuman, the Monkey God who aided Rama in the Ramanaya). I want Vanaras back as a player race. But if they fused all these different cultures together, they could make a very fun setting. But use more Emishi/Ainu/Korean Primal, Mongol warriors (perhaps Centaurs, or Primal barbarians), Samurai guarding a Great Wall, Wuxia and the various martial arts, but look at Vietnam and Cambodia and Thailand and such as well. With the Indian extension, they could even reach out to the Middle East and look at a conflict between Elemental Worshipers and Divine Worshipers (heck, the Persian-like people could think they worship the Gods, and that the Indian-like people worship Demons, and vice versa). Subjective deities and morality, giving way to the rise of monastic morals and inner focus and selflessness. There's so many ways to build on this all.
If you wanted to do a campaign based on Warring States Japan (Sengoku-Jidai-the age of the country at war) then you had the island nation of Kozakura. If you wanted a campaign based on the relatively peaceful (as in, no major wars) Tokugawa era of Japan then you had the island nation of Wa.
And if you wanted a campaign based on the peaceful era of China then you had the mainland nation of Shou-Lung. If you wanted a campaign based on Warring States China similar to what the Dynasty Warriors video game is about then you had the mainland nation of T'u Lung.
And if you wanted a campaign based on Korea then you had the nation of Koryo. If you wanted a campaign based on Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, or the Phillippines they were there too. They also had a campaign setting for a Ghengis Khan type campaign. There was even stuff similar to India and Tibet.
now the problem with the first edition Oriental Adventure wasn't that you didn't have enough different fluff for a campaign setting, it was that almost all of the player character CLASSES were based on a japanese flavored setting.
Samurai...obviously Japanese flavored. The word means " One who Serves"
Shukenja...D&D name of practitioners of a religion from Japan called Shugendo. These were very much what could be considered clerics.
Sohei...the origional name means "priest-soldiers" but is commonly called warrior-monks. They came from Enryakuji temple and Mount Hiei, near Kyoto. Other temples where they came from were Onjoji, near Otsu, and Kofukuji and Todaiji in the south. In real life they were Buddhists.
Barbarian...One of the few classes not necessarily based on only Japan. For the most part they seem to be based off of Ghengis Khans hordes.
Kensai....There was only one true Kensai and he was definitely Japanese. The name refers to Miyamoto Musashi from Japanese history and legend. They pretty much expanded that to include anyone that tried to truely master any weapon of any kind in AD&D but the translation actually means Sword Saint.
Bushi...Taken from the code of Bushido. the way of the warrior. In AD&D they expanded it to mean just your basic fighter ( with Ki power of course ), and not being of Samurai status.
Wu-Jen...Taken from the legend of Kobo Daishi. He was apparently the guy that was some sort of wizard from China that came to Japan and taught some out of sorts Samurai the ways of espionage thus forming the Ninja clans. But he was also supposed to be a mystic wizard with wierd traditions. I am pretty sure they may have also borrowed from Big Trouble in Little China's Lo-Pan character as well when they made this class, but that is just my opinion.
Monk. Taken from the Shaolin traditions of China so again, one of the few that are not Japanese based.
Ninja...obviously based on Japan
Yakuza...again, obviously based on Japan.
Now any of these could easily be made to look like they came from some other country than one based on Japan. For instance, the Yakuza could be made to represent the yellow scarves movement in China, or any of the other many underground thieves guild type organizations. the Ninja could represent the Chinese Vagabonds. A group of spies and assassins that worked all over china. The Bushi could represent the common warriors of China, while the monks would obviously represent the many martial arts temples, especially Shaolin or Wu Tang.
The problem with the 3rd edition Oriental Adventures was that they made it almost exclusively Japanese based. Yes it was Rokugan, yes Rokugan is obviously not Japan. But it is based on Japan. And while some of the characters were also loosely based on China, most were Japanese based. It's almost as if the 3rd edition designers just reversed it. Instead of most of the Characters being based on Japan, the setting would be. Hence Rokugan came to be.
For an Oriental Adventures, I would love to see all of the classes for Japan still in it, but also add things from other places. And it doesn't all necessarily have to be based on any real world countries. Yes, I want to see Ninja, Wu-Jen, Yakuza, Samurai, Sohei, Shukenja, maybe some Mystics and some Iaijutsu masters, but I also want to see things like Ki channelers, some Esoteric monks, Soul Sorcerors, or some Witch Hunters. Just make it cool, without making it totally about just one country.
Well, what I loved about the old Kara-tur setting was that not every culture in the book was of Japanese make. Even though Japan flavored campaigns are my passion.
I agree that cultures other than Japan should be included, but if I recall Kara-tur is in Faerun right? Sticking everything in FR is a bit much...
Though I agree that cultural diversity is good and all, the Arabian is almost completely there in the core books. And it could easily be supplemented by an "Oriental" supplement, as they did with the original OA (though you knida had to look for it... It also had stuff you could use for an Egyptian setting in addition to mummies, etc from core books). Norse is very much the same as mainstream D&D just take out a little here and there (where do you think giants and dwarves come from?). African would be interesting though, and a Aztec-y/Maya/Native American supplement could be useful too.
Another reason that I think that Oriental would probably go higher on the production list than any of those, though is that the fanbase for Asain campaign settings is, I'm quite certain, the largest next to mainstream/European.
...On the topic of other settings a Renaissance setting would be nice, too. Not like Eberron, and not necessarily with less magic, but firearms can be an interesting addition... A lower tech level would be taken care of with the African/Native American settings...
A Norse setting would indeed be easy enough to derive from the basic core. Though it would definitely need the Norse gods - there's no point in playing a Viking campaign without being able to worship Odin and Thor. Most of the PHB gods could be easily reskinned (Bahamut -> Odin, Kord -> Thor). There doesn't seem to be a good match for Loki, though. It'd be nice to see a Dragon article on running a Norse campaign, or a book covering 'classic' settings (Greek, Norse, Egyptian).
I have no problem with an Asian-focused setting as one of the per-year campaign worlds, provided it's a better option that year than anything else. If WotC are going to release Rokugan, Kara-Tur or their own oriental world ahead of Dragonlance, Greyhawk or Dark Sun, then it needs to be a better and richer world than anything else. I also think it's imperative that a stand-alone Asian setting draws on a wide range of Asian culture, not just Japan.
I like the idea of a Renaissance setting, or even a Victorian setting. If I were designing something like that, I'd make each race responsible for at least one form of technological innovation.
I agree that cultures other than Japan should be included, but if I recall Kara-tur is in Faerun right? Sticking everything in FR is a bit much...
Odd choice of words there. Kara-tur is not in Faerun. It is east of it.:D Fearun and Kara-tur are both continents on Toril. At least that is what I recall them being.....I admit I'm not an expert on Realmslore.
A Norse setting would indeed be easy enough to derive from the basic core. Though it would definitely need the Norse gods - there's no point in playing a Viking campaign without being able to worship Odin and Thor. Most of the PHB gods could be easily reskinned (Bahamut -> Odin, Kord -> Thor). There doesn't seem to be a good match for Loki, though. It'd be nice to see a Dragon article on running a Norse campaign, or a book covering 'classic' settings (Greek, Norse, Egyptian).
This could certainly make for an awesome article!!
I have no problem with an Asian-focused setting as one of the per-year campaign worlds, provided it's a better option that year than anything else. If WotC are going to release Rokugan, Kara-Tur or their own oriental world ahead of Dragonlance, Greyhawk or Dark Sun, then it needs to be a better and richer world than anything else.
Good point. Although "better and richer" is a bit general and subjective, the expectation that the setting be "standout" engaging and exciting sets a good bar. I would probably see it coming after Dark Sun, though. Hopefully right after Dark Sun! Which is hopefully right after Eberron!
I also think it's imperative that a stand-alone Asian setting draws on a wide range of Asian culture, not just Japan.
I really hope WotC hears this from us.
I like the idea of a Renaissance setting, or even a Victorian setting. If I were designing something like that, I'd make each race responsible for at least one form of technological innovation.
Ha...what about a Renaissance Asiany setting? Each clan responsible for certain technologies and trying to negotiate or pilfer secrets from each other, all while racing to dig up or recreate powerful secrets from their shared past and maintaining a polished and cultured front in clan politics? Now THAT is more along the lines of what I want to see. :D "Asiany" is nowhere near the only hook into that campaign setting!
Odd choice of words there. Kara-tur is not in Faerun. It is east of it.:D Fearun and Kara-tur are both continents on Toril. At least that is what I recall them being.....I admit I'm not an expert on Realmslore.
This is correct, although eiyu's central point stands.
Kara-tur and Faerun are both FR, and FR could conceivably get over-crowded.A Norse setting would indeed be easy enough to derive from the basic core. Though it would definitely need the Norse gods - there's no point in playing a Viking campaign without being able to worship Odin and Thor.
Here's an idea. Make your own. :D (Not trying to be snarky/mean in case it comes across that way)
Odd choice of words there. Kara-tur is not in Faerun. It is east of it.:D Fearun and Kara-tur are both continents on Toril. At least that is what I recall them being.....I admit I'm not an expert on Realmslore.
-_-' Same bloody thing.
& @marius4's last point: Thank you.
I agree that cultures other than Japan should be included, but if I recall Kara-tur is in Faerun right? Sticking everything in FR is a bit much...
Not origionally, no. Thats why I said OLD Kara-Tur.
The origional 1st edition AD&D Oriental Adventures book was copyright dated 1985. Kara-tur is the world given in the origional book. I own the origional Forgotten Realms campaign set, ( yes, the very first one for AD&D 1st edition ) and it is copyright dated 1987. Oriental Adventures came out two years before Forgotten Realms even existed as a campaign set.
The first adventure/campaign set published for Oriental Adventures was called Swords of the Daimyo or OA 1. It was set in Kara-Tur, not Forgotten Realms. There is no Realms influence in it at all. It is copyright dated 1986.
The second adventure ever published for Oriental Adventures was called Night of the Seven Swords. It also was made for Kara-Tur and had absolutely nothing to do with Forgotten Realms. It is in my opinion, one of the best adventures I have ever seen based off of Japanese mythos. It is copyright dated 1986 as well.
The third adventure ever published for Oriental Adventures was called Ochimo the Spirit Warrior. Again, it was made for Kara-Tur, and actually took the player characters out of Japan flavored Kozakura and put them in touch with Shou Lung based on China. It is copyright dated 1987.
The fourth adventure ever published for Oriental Adventures was called Blood of the Yakuza. It is also a campaign system for the island nation of Wa. Like it's predecessors it is based in Kara-Tur and has absolutely nothing to do with the Forgotten Realms.
But the fifth adventure ever published for Oriental Adventures was called Mad Monkey vs the Dragon Claw. And it actually says Forgotten Realms right on it. I remember when it first came out I was surprised to see they placed it in the realms. Thats when I knew they had moved Kara-Tur to the realms instead of leaving it be its own little campaign world. It is very heavily based on Wuxia style kung fu movies and even says so in the forward. It is copyright dated 1988.
They came out with a few more adventures after Mad Monkey vs the Dragon Claw, named OA 6 Ronin Challenge, OA 7 Test of the Samurai, and FROA 1 Ninja Wars, and one Forgotten Realms Oriental campaign set that I can't remember the name of. As such most of the folks I know that played Oriental Adventures stayed away from them.
So as you can see, Kara-Tur was its own setting for almost three years until TSR saw fit to place it in the Realms. Sad really as it has so much potential as long as it's kept away from Toril.
-_-' Same bloody thing.
Bleh, I meant for there to be a :P at the end. I'm not sure why it wasn't there.
So as you can see, Kara-Tur was its own setting for almost three years until TSR saw fit to place it in the Realms.
Wasn't it implied that the original Kara-Tur was in Greyhawk (Oerth)?
I would love to see a 4th ed OA or maybe a updated Kara-Tur. They updated all the rest of FR and Kara-Tur IS in FR after all, so why not update that too. It would be interesting to see if any of the events in the rest of Toril affected Kara-Tur, like the spell plague or other things?
Wasn't it implied that the original Kara-Tur was in Greyhawk (Oerth)?
It was originally but then FR become TSR's new baby and Kara-Tur was transfered to FR. I have a very old-school D&D playing pal who talks about this a lot when OA is mentioned.
Old Kara-Tur was kinda cool. FR Kara-Tur was kinda ass. That said, anything would be fun...just no more Rokugan. I like my D&D a little less L5Resk. Where is my Complete Ninja Handbook? That was a fun book.
Bah. L5R is a great setting on its own. I love the rich setting, history, characters and actual attention to culture. Half the OA players couldn't do real asian ettiqute if their lives depended on it, and it should in most Japanese settings. Running around like a westerner with a Katana and Kimono is NOT how OA should be done.
It would be interesting to see if any of the events in the rest of Toril affected Kara-Tur, like the spell plague or other things?
I believe something happened with the Dragonwall.
I believe something happened with the Dragonwall.
I don't know what the Dragonwall is really. Is that just a OA version of the great wall of China?
I don't know what the Dragonwall is really. Is that just a OA version of the great wall of China?
Yep, but it has the soul/sprit of a Purple Dragon (The?) bound into it.
Yep, but it has the soul/sprit of a Purple Dragon (The?)bound into it.
As opposed to a lot of people who died building it in real life and maybe some enemies too?
As opposed to a lot of people who died building it in real life and maybe some enemies too?
We just don't have manual labour like we used too!
I think the Purple Dragon is now free after the Spellplague. I'm actually going to work on my own changes to Kara-Tur, to bring it in line with the rest of the Realms/Spellplague debacle a bit (shattered empires, or gone completely, change in landscapes – definitely smaller etc).
Wasn't it implied that the original Kara-Tur was in Greyhawk (Oerth)?
Well, I have to admit, you got me thinking about that one....so I did a little research, and pretty much re-read the entire AD&D Oriental Adventures again. I could not find anything in the book that says Kara-Tur is in or on Oerth. Actually, in the introduction of the book David "Zeb" Cook wrote:
"Fourthly, the Oriental Adventures book allowed me to create the framework of a new world-Kara-Tur"
So it seems to me it was made to be it's own world. And thats the way I remember it when it first came out.
I remember in 2e Planescape how inhabitants of a region could, if their attitudes were strong enough, physically migrate their homeland to another plane. So perhaps the people of Kara-Tur should concentrate hard and will themselves out of the Forgotten Realms...
Kensai....There was only one true Kensai and he was definitely Japanese. The name refers to Miyamoto Musashi from Japanese history and legend.
Not true. There were more, and I've heard that Musashi might be recognized as among the top 5, if I remember correctly.
People only remember Musashi because he wrote a book that got translated and republished into 80,000 languages. There were plenty of other books that were written by swordsmen who were just as good (if not better) than he was. And I'd wager that there are quite a few other swordsmen who were just as/better who didn't write books and actually *gasp* fought. Shocker. Kawakami Gensai for example. He was quite definitely an excellent swordsman and not only did he not write a book, there are hardly any records of him at all.
To be fair to Musashi, he did fight. Quite a bit, in fact. I'm not saying the man doesn't deserve some credit. He does. But there were many, many other men recognized as kensei.
Dragonborn: the Imperial dragons, honored servants of the god emperor Io.
Longtooth Shifters: Netsumi, ratling beastmen who are in touch with nature
Doppleganger: Kitsune, the changling foxes deeply involved with politics.
Human: commonfolk
I'm probably missing a few... Gnolls could also work for the Netsumi
Fantasy gaming isnít just about knights and castles and dragons anymore. Ninjas and samurai, ronin and shugenja, yakuza and monksóall these and more have gradually filtered into peopleís expectations for a fantasy world.
Ha-HA! According to their own book they must make a 4e Oriental supplement. :P
To be fair to Musashi, he did fight. Quite a bit, in fact. I'm not saying the man doesn't deserve some credit. He does. But there were many, many other men recognized as kensei.
I'm not denying that he did fight. I have his book. (And I don't use it for business management :P) According to the intro, as I recall, he never lost any of his... was it 1000? fights. I'm just saying he gets more credit than is due, and mostly because he eclipses many other great swordsmen.
In Miyamoto Musashi's case, he DID actually fight. he fought in six major battles and over 40 personal combats. By most accounts he never lost a single battle (although one story says he lost to a man using the 4 foot stick known as a Jo). Musashi didn't write Gorinnosho, or, the book of five rings until he was in his 80's.
He is also the Samurai credited with having developed the sword style known as Nito ryu jutsu, or two-sword technique.
Not true. The only historical reference for Kensai was Musashi. In fact, it was a name given to him by his students. However, I do agree, there were quite a few extremely skilled swordsmen in Japan's history, however they are not known by the Japanese as Kensai. They are simply known as Kengo..or Master Swordsmen. A few names are Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, Haneo Unno, and Tsukahara Bokuden (the most famous swordsman in Japan, contrary to the belief that it is Musashi)
In Miyamoto Musashi's case, he DID actually fight. he fought in six major battles and over 40 personal combats. By most accounts he never lost a single battle (although one story says he lost to a man using the 4 foot stick known as a Jo). Musashi didn't write Gorinnosho, or, the book of five rings until he was in his 80's.
He is also the Samurai credited with having developed the sword style known as Nito ryu jutsu, or two-sword technique.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensei
the problem with using Wikipedia as a source is that anyone can go to that site and write anything they want to, wether it is the truth or not. That's why college course instructors do not want you to use Wikipedia as a source in most cases when doing MLA citations. Or if you do, to back it up with many other sources other than Wikipedia. It's just not a reliable source for information. But it's certainly entertaining. ;)
But the counter problem is college instructors and apparently you as well think any moronic teeny or some other person can go in and put down whatever disinformation they want. Not true. Wikipedia seems to be very carefully monitored for false information.
Well I didn't say any moronic teenie can but there are certainly more than a few mistakes when looking things up in Wikipedia. The reason college instructors don't like it is because they are correct. While an effort is made by the people who run Wikipedia to make sure the information is as close to correct as they can find, many things have also gotten by them. Of course when these things are found they are immediately corrected however the fact remains, it is not as reliable as many other sources. May I direct you to one of the best authors on the subject, Dr Stephen Turnbull. He is recognized world wide as one of the worlds foremost authorities on all things Samurai.
It's true that Wikipedia is not definitive. It is, however, free, widely and quickly available, and rather impressively accurate on average for such a comprehensive resource. It's true that well-established books on a specific subject are preferable, but not all of us have access to the Library of the Unseen University. Those that do have to get past the Librarian.
In this case, we learn that Miyamoto Musashi was the most famous man recognized as 'kensei,' but not all agree that the term should apply. Also, many other men have been recognized as 'kensei'.
People only remember Musashi because he wrote a book that got translated and republished into 80,000 languages (whats sad is that most people don't even use it as a book on swordplay, but on "business management". wtf?).
His opening lines were: "It's 4 in the morning, I'm 60 years old, and I've never lost a match in my life," or something to that effect. :D It is typical in many martial arts to apply concepts learned to all aspects of your life.
I agree that Generic Setting #912 Now with the Words "Honor," "Silk," & "Enlightenment" is a trip to failure. 'Tis odd how Western-made "East" settings buzzword "honor" & "loyalty" while they seem to me as applicable in Medieval Europe, where bondsmen favored death before disloyalty. If your lord Charlemagne died, for example, you'd probably fight suicidally or face your own blade point before imprisonment. Dishonor!
There are differences. Where many (not all) European conflicts were over religion and holy sites, many Chinese, Japanese, and Korean tensions were raised over culture & nationalism, & not any one religion. Gardens in China & Japan favor an organic, natural appearance to view from within while English & French gardens favor geometric shaping perhaps best viewed from far above.
All the more need for a setting based on culturally distinct mindsets but able to hold interest with much more than "exotica." Now play a dumb game and try to base a setting on cultural superiority and wandering gardens. ;)
Gardens in China & Japan favor an organic, natural appearance to view from within while English & French gardens favor geometric shaping perhaps best viewed from far above.
“First you must find... another shrubbery!Then, when you have found the shrubbery, you must place it here, beside this shrubbery, only slightly higher so you get a two layer effect with a little path running down the middle."
("A path! A path!")
Sorry, I have a random mind. :P
Where the tales agree, they paint
these mysterious figures as creatures of the night,
having no need for the tricks and tools used by their
lesser ilk. Some say they can step through walls, blend
into the stuff of shadows, alter their appearance at
will, and command the gloaming to do their bidding.
If these true assassins exist, they have left behind no
witnesses—only questions and chilling fear.
Shadow power source anyone?
Hmmm... does anyone think this little tidbit could be important?
Where the tales agree, they paint
these mysterious figures as creatures of the night,
having no need for the tricks and tools used by their
lesser ilk. Some say they can step through walls, blend
into the stuff of shadows, alter their appearance at
will, and command the gloaming to do their bidding.
If these true assassins exist, they have left behind no
witnesses—only questions and chilling fear.
Shadow power source anyone?
No. It's ninja obviously. :P
It's ninja obviously. :P
Shadow Striker, maybe?
Yeah, that was my impression. These "true assassins" have yet gone unnamed either because Wizards doesn't want to label them as Ninjas because they want to make them more "universal" to the WEST
Or they might go for Assassin, which I would prefer, and it does have a legacy, considering it has been a class in 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ed.
As much as people hate it, I have a feeling the Samurai and Ninja will be Ki classes.
Or they might go for Assassin, which I would prefer, and it does have a legacy, considering it has been a class in 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ed.
As much as people hate it, I have a feeling the Samurai and Ninja will be Ki classes.
After all the "true assassin" flavor dropped in the article I can hardly see these Shadowy fellers of the future not being Ninja. Perhaps they'll be called something else--perhaps even "Assassin" as you mention--but my fears of having both of the above are generally put to rest.
Hmm... How would this be for a custom "Oriential Adventures" setting?
Dragonborn: the Imperial dragons, honored servants of the god emperor Io.
Longtooth Shifters: Netsumi, ratling beastmen who are in touch with nature
Doppleganger: Kitsune, the changling foxes deeply involved with politics.
Human: commonfolk
I'm probably missing a few... Gnolls could also work for the Netsumi
I like the dragonborn idea a lot for a homebrew Asiany setting.
I wonder...I'm pretty sure a 4e Asiany setting would feature clan or family ties somehow. We could debate that (:detect
and/or what elements "should" be in a 4e Asiany setting (:thinks...but my more specific question is:[INDENT]If the 4e Asiany setting DID use a great clan structure similar to or reminiscent of Rokugan's, would you want the PHB races divided into separate clans? If you wanted the clans to instead be PHB-racially mixed, how would you distinguish them from, say, the Dragonmarked Houses of Eberron?[/INDENT]
PS (Does this still fit under the topic or should it be a new thread?)
my fears of having both of the above are generally put to rest.
I could easily see an Assassin and Ninja class in 4th Ed D&D, very easily.
I could easily see an Assassin and Ninja class in 4th Ed D&D, very easily.
Really? How so? At first glance, it sounds to me as excessive as having both an Illusionist and a Shadowcaster. There is the "Naruto" Ninja shtick, I suppose, but with these "true assassins" running around doesn't that sort of decide the Ninja debate? Or are you saying you could see room for a Naruto Ninja base class and a Shadowy Ninja base class, even if neither is actually called "Ninja?"
Or are you saying you could see room for a Naruto Ninja base class and a Shadowy Ninja base class, even if neither is actually called "Ninja?"
Yes. All the above. Aye. Yeppers.
:coolcthulWelcome to Schrodinger's Game. In a state of l33t and h4x both at the same time. All the guesses we can make could prove true or false. I put nothing past the creative team at this moment.
Or are you saying you could see room for a Naruto Ninja base class and a Shadowy Ninja base class, even if neither is actually called "Ninja?"
As much as some people hate it, I could see the Ninja as a Ki class (striker or controller), it also has legacy to it (for what that's worth).
So I think the Assassin could be a Shadow Striker.
As for Oriental Races, I actually imagined a world based off races associated with the Chinese Zodiac, by refluffing existing races.
Here it is, in the yearly cycle.
Rat: Halflings. Not only are Rats charismatic, but they are very dexterous as well. Not much needed to refluff them as Nezumi.
Ox: Minotaur. Use the Dragon Article, and you're good. Alternatively, you could play Dwarves this way, but I like to flavour them as Korobokuru, make them chaotic and primal, and use them as non-Zodiac Empire race (a fringe race, so to speak). This is an interesting way to incorporate Minotaurs (and Gnolls below) into the core races instead of being monster races on the fringe.
Tiger: Longtooth Shifter. Play up the Sabertooth role and you're good.
Rabbit: Half-Elf. Fits their role as the Charismatic and Flexible race.
Dragon: Dragonborn. Charisma already has them going for the Long Dragon feel, just make the appearance more asian dragon feel. Metallic Dragons should help with that (Gold Dragons were always Long in appearance, though they were Fire, not Water). This could also be the leaders of the empire too.
Snake: Eladrin. With that tail, and the evil-connotations with the Snakes and the Yuan-ti, you'd think this would be Tiefling, but the snake personality characteristics fit the Eladrin culture to a tee. Make it more serpentine, and you're good.
Horse: Elf. As much as I would like to say Centaur, it's not a playable race or even a monster (until MM2). But Elves are very much in the racial personality of the basic Horse. Plus they move faster than anyone else.
Ram: Tiefling. Another hard choice. What needs to be played up is that they aren't as Emo as you would think, and the devil-connection can be ridded of. The Horns can stay, as they are very Ramish. Rams are very beautiful, very considerate of others, and once they trust you, are very loyal allies. They are very artistic. All in all, Tiefling, minus the darkness. See the Rooster below for a similar change from darker to lighter.
Monkey: Gnomes. Vanara were the epitome of this in the old Oriental Adventures, but Gnome Capture the Vanara feel if you change their appearance. Sun Wukong was the trickster god after all.
Rooster: Surprisingly, Shadar-kai. Actually, just add gloom and dark to everything about Rooster, and you get Shadar-kai. They're just a darker interpretation of the archetypal personality. Find them in the Dragon article.
Dog: Gnolls. Not much of a refluff to turn Hyenas into Wolves, even if they are more closely related to cats. Use the Dragon article.
Pig: Half-Orcs. Use the Boar-ish archetype of the Japanese interpretation.
If you want to play up the myth of the Zodiac, you could add in variations based off the locational variations of the Zodiac, i.e. Water Buffalo instead of Ox (Vietnam), Snail instead of Dragon (Turkish; think the Dragonborn with his shell frag), etc. You could also utilise the myth of its formation, that is, the party and the competition, in which the Cat was the only one that was left out, and thus didn't make it into the Zodiac. You could use Razorclaw Shifters for Cats, to mirror the Longtooths as Tigers. Note that you would definitely draw Fruits Basket parallels though, but I don't know how many people watch/read Fruits Basket AND play D&D. It is Shoujo, after all, and everyone knows that there are no Girls on the Internet (kidding, kidding >_>)
Not that being a guy prevents you from reading it, of course. And I'm sure there are female D&D players, as one professional player recounts every month...
But yeah, that was my concept. Note that I incorporated it on the same world as my occidental/african/middle-eastern fusion-setting, though I used the same races in the west only with different appearances. This is of some interest to me in that I flavour Halflings as pig-like people in my normal setting; a more settled, smaller variation on the Boarish Half-Orcs and Orc tribes.
As I mentioned, there were several races that had to be modified somewhat in flavour - Shadar-kai to Rooster, Tiefling to Ram, Gnoll to Dog. All in all, though they are most similar to the archetypal role. Actually, much of Gnoll's flavour must be disregarded. But keep the wolf-hunter aspect and you're good.
So as other races in the group, I would place Razorclaws as Cats, Dwarves as Korobokuru, Humans as foreigners, Devas as godlike beings that organized the Zodiac Empire and could be manipulating the strings over their thousands of lifetimes, Warforged as terracotta soldiers brought to life to guard the tombs of the Emperors, and Goliaths as ancient mountain men, possibly a variation on kami, oni, or yokai. Then again, Goliaths could be the ancient shinto-like race that inhabited the land before the Zodiac Empire was established, and refused to join the empire, and thus were mostly killed off, except for pockets of mountain tribal villagers, similar in concept to the Emishi or Ainu of northern Japan. Korobokuru would be of a similar idea, though I like the idea of making them more similar in character to Maori, even if that's from a country far south of Asia.
EDIT: Oh, and Drow and Genasi. If the Devas are the Godlike beings, the Genasi could be Asuras. Of course, if we're working off the original RigVeda, the Asuras are really more like how D&D portrays the Devas (deities of ethics) and the Devas are really more like how D&D portrays the Genasis (deities of elements). But that's a problem over which name we give the reflavoured races. In any case, the elemental demons that oppose the Devas could be the Genasi.
Drow, on the other hand, could be the people of Yomi, the Netherworld millions of miles beneath the surface of the earth, having worked their way up and escaped the boulder put down by Izanagi in Japanese myth. Notably, that would reference the old Shinto traditions (Primal) as opposed to the new Zodiac Heavenly Order religion (Divine).
However, I guess in the fake world of D&D you could say they are not Ki classes (even though 1st edition AD&D gave them Ki powers)
Personally I am all for Ninja being Ki classes and loathe the idea of them becoming shadow creatures of some kind or another.
just because Ninja's are asian doesn't make them Ki.
Never said that; please don't get all Asianator on us – boring. I would be happy for the Ninja to be a Rogue PP, but the history of the class in D&D has been Ki, that is all.
This is a thread about CAMPAIGN SETTINGS. :D
I'm still curious if anyone thinks a campaign setting would be viable with each race divided into a (Rokugani-esque) clan and what would differentiate clans (one race or mixed-race) from Dragonmarked "Houses" of Eberron. By viable I mean that it would work as a campaign setting in which you could conceivably and functionally DM (or play).
@Marandahir: I thought the zodiac-races idea was pretty neat. Did you conceive of it in the hypothetical setting as simply an ancient creation myth or does it have some sort of functional impact on races? I like what you point out about the flavor and structure being Asiany but the basic content still being rooted in, essentially, 4e core world stuff. I think that's sort of the model the devs will go with...sprinkled liberally with innovation, of course.
Assassins are not a player character race. They should never have been before. I would rather have a class named "mercenary" then an evil, soulless killer.
I think that most of the ideas people have for an Oriental Adventures setting could be covered in a couple Dragon articles. Wizards could give examples of communities that hold honor and family above everything else, talk about strong family lineages that might exist in said communities, and give an assortment of paragon paths or epic destinies along with backgrounds and motivations for adventurers from those communities. The article would probably end up being about the same length as the necromancy article that was released last month. The only big thing that people associate with Oriental Adventures that I haven't covered is the different system of government, but since there is nothing in the DMG about government yet, I assume that's all left up to the dungeon master anyway. (The first campaign I ran was in a democracy, so nothing requires a vassal system.)
In summary, we don't have entire campaign settings for Nentir Vale and Sigil, so why make a whole setting where a few descriptions and plot hooks will do?
I think that a setting that is done as a continent/separate land that could be within any campaign would be preferable, with the classes/races within a PHB before it, having only one or two unique classes/races to itself.
As much as I want to see classes inspired by samurai, ninja, and monks, I'm apprehensive about an Oriental Adventures setting. I like the current line that all modules fit into the same world. If Wizards of the Coast releases an Oriental Adventures setting, that might reinforce the idea that certain classes only exist for certain settings and shouldn't be used for "the general Euro-centric setting of most campaigns." (the quotes denote that I don't buy that line of thinking)
I think that most of the ideas people have for an Oriental Adventures setting could be covered in a couple Dragon articles. Wizards could give examples of communities that hold honor and family above everything else, talk about strong family lineages that might exist in said communities, and give an assortment of paragon paths or epic destinies along with backgrounds and motivations for adventurers from those communities. The article would probably end up being about the same length as the necromancy article that was released last month. The only big thing that people associate with Oriental Adventures that I haven't covered is the different system of government, but since there is nothing in the DMG about government yet, I assume that's all left up to the dungeon master anyway. (The first campaign I ran was in a democracy, so nothing requires a vassal system.)
In summary, we don't have entire campaign settings for Nentir Vale and Sigil, so why make a whole setting where a few descriptions and plot hooks will do?
Well, it is true that articles could be magnificent for certain purposes, but if we rely on them entirely then why have ANY new campaign settings??
The core world is always going to have stuff fitting into it, hence the "ever-expanding core." I think it's more constructive to discuss this:[INDENT]If and when a new campaign setting (the once a year kind with a Campaign Guide & Player's Guide) is released that pulls heavily from Asian mythologies as one (1) of its central conceits, what might or should this fantasy world be like?[/INDENT]
I suppose we could debate (or are also debating) whether a setting like this should be released at all, which is what your question gets at I guess. However, that seems to boil down to differences of style & opinion which seem limited in applicability. For instance, just because some people dislike psionics and sand doesn't mean Dark Sun has no merit as a campaign setting.
I suppose to answer you directly: because it has potential to be cool & fun! :D That's just my angle on things, though.
As much as I want to see classes inspired by samurai, ninja, and monks, I'm apprehensive about an Oriental Adventures setting. I like the current line that all modules fit into the same world. If Wizards of the Coast releases an Oriental Adventures setting, that might reinforce the idea that certain classes only exist for certain settings and shouldn't be used for "the general Euro-centric setting of most campaigns." (the quotes denote that I don't buy that line of thinking)
I think that most of the ideas people have for an Oriental Adventures setting could be covered in a couple Dragon articles. Wizards could give examples of communities that hold honor and family above everything else, talk about strong family lineages that might exist in said communities, and give an assortment of paragon paths or epic destinies along with backgrounds and motivations for adventurers from those communities. The article would probably end up being about the same length as the necromancy article that was released last month. The only big thing that people associate with Oriental Adventures that I haven't covered is the different system of government, but since there is nothing in the DMG about government yet, I assume that's all left up to the dungeon master anyway. (The first campaign I ran was in a democracy, so nothing requires a vassal system.)
In summary, we don't have entire campaign settings for Nentir Vale and Sigil, so why make a whole setting where a few descriptions and plot hooks will do?
Well, my reason for wanting it is because I LOVE having my own hard copies of campaign settings and so far I have bought all of the books Wotc has produced for 4th edition. Dragon magazine is not my idea of a good buy. I want it hardbound. I want it colorful, and I don't want it on the internet. I prefer to have it in a solid book form.
Dragon magazine is not my idea of a good buy. I want it hardbound. I want it colorful, and I don't want it on the internet. I prefer to have it in a solid book form.
I believe they will release a hardbound Best of Dragon or something every year (for what that's worth).
Really? How so? At first glance, it sounds to me as excessive as having both an Illusionist and a Shadowcaster. There is the "Naruto" Ninja shtick, I suppose, but with these "true assassins" running around doesn't that sort of decide the Ninja debate? Or are you saying you could see room for a Naruto Ninja base class and a Shadowy Ninja base class, even if neither is actually called "Ninja?"
Well, in 3e Assassin was a prestige class and Ninja was a base class. In 4e Martial Power they have an assassin paragon, so...
If Wizards wants to imply that off in the west there is a Pseudo-European continent, fine. What would be even better is if they created a new western continent for Kara-Tur.
I did an Rokugan (which, I believe if you bought all of the supplements went as far as Egypt and Mid East type areas, and had no European equivalent, also I hadn't bought any of those supplements, I just assumed this from the Complete Exotic Arms Guide) campaign a few months ago, that had the arrival of Eberronean airships and the forced integration of a technological advanced society into a society that sparked a civil war (look up "Bakumatsu" on Wikipedia :P). You don't need a "Europe" in the setting, expressed or implied, to put one there.
I love Mirahandar's idea for the zodiac race thing. I'll use it if WotC doesn't.
@marius4 (post near bottom of pg 3): Well, campaign settings and/or a combination of PHB's DMG's? and MM's? :D
@marius4 (post near top of pg 4): I like your angle. :D
Well, my reason for wanting it is because I LOVE having my own hard copies of campaign settings and so far I have bought all of the books Wotc has produced for 4th edition. Dragon magazine is not my idea of a good buy. I want it hardbound. I want it colorful, and I don't want it on the internet. I prefer to have it in a solid book form.
I agree. Another thing is that its a pain to have to flip through the (potentially) hundred-some-odd issues just to pull out one article for every 15 magazines and then remember the page numbers and issues to refer to them. Its much simpler to have books that you can remember like: looking for a rogue power that isn't in the PHB... okay Martial Power, book for martial characters, rogue = martial, *opens Martial Power skims through* Here we are. As opposed to: hmm... item in Dragon magazine... *opens Dragon Magazine folder* sort: name... issue 367, 368, uh... 369? *open looks at ToC* uh... what article was it in?
See? Your screwed. I've only got the first 6 issues, and I'm having trouble finding things. Sure, if I keep going back to them over and over again, I'll probably remember a couple off the top of my head, but by then the campaigns over.
If they do some sort of Oriental Adventures setting, I hope it has a different name, something new or different like "The Forbidden Kingdoms Campaign Setting." I think campaign settings only have one new class and two new races. I don't have an extensive background in D&D history, so I'd have to suggest something that's new also (to me, at least). The setting would be based on mythology of heroes that are bold and firm in their resolve or subtle and tricky (so, um, not too different from what we already have). Sorry. To elaborate, I could see the bold race being like the dragonborn, but with a twist (like the comparison between drow, elves, and eladrin). If they did something new, however, I think a rock creature type race could be cool. Another cool race idea would be a fox spirit type race (although when I write that I think about "Dreams" by Akira Kurosawa, and that's not what most people associate with D&D; if you google it, it's dream 1). As far as class, I think something in between Ray Park's Darth Maul and Jet Li's Monkey King (Star Wars and The Forbidden Kingdom respectively) would be interesting, but that would probably be more of a psionic class than ki.
Hmm, I just realized that my suggested campaign setting name is the same as a movie I referenced; I better quit now before I get even further behind.
Well, in 3e Assassin was a (NPC) prestige class and Ninja was a base class. In 4e Martial Power they have an assassin paragon, so...
There, fixed that for ya...
Little pet peeve of mine, sorry if it offends.
These have been some vary valid points. The presentation method Wizards uses won't change people's prejudices. For example, just because Wizards say that Artificers and Warforged are core concepts doesn't mean that everyone will let them into non-Eberron games. When it comes down to it, it's all just personal preference.
If they do some sort of Oriental Adventures setting, I hope it has a different name, something new or different like "The Forbidden Kingdoms Campaign Setting." I think campaign settings only have one new class and two new races. I don't have an extensive background in D&D history, so I'd have to suggest something that's new also (to me, at least). The setting would be based on mythology of heroes that are bold and firm in their resolve or subtle and tricky (so, um, not too different from what we already have). Sorry. To elaborate, I could see the bold race being like the dragonborn, but with a twist (like the comparison between drow, elves, and eladrin). If they did something new, however, I think a rock creature type race could be cool. Another cool race idea would be a fox spirit type race (although when I write that I think about "Dreams" by Akira Kurosawa, and that's not what most people associate with D&D; if you google it, it's dream 1). As far as class, I think something in between Ray Park's Darth Maul and Jet Li's Monkey King (Star Wars and The Forbidden Kingdom respectively) would be interesting, but that would probably be more of a psionic class than ki.
Hmm, I just realized that my suggested campaign setting name is the same as a movie I referenced; I better quit now before I get even further behind.
What awesome new questions you bring up!! :bounce:
If and when a new campaign setting (the once a year kind with a Campaign Guide & Player's Guide) is released that pulls heavily from Asian mythologies as one (1) of its central conceits...:
- What might (or should, IYHO) this fantasy world be like?
- What/how should the campaign setting be named?
- What one or two new classes might it present?
- What one or two new races might it present?
There, fixed that for ya...
Little pet peeve of mine, sorry if it offends.
So you wouldn't allow an evil PC to take the assassin prestige class? Prestige classes are usually for PCs. The NPC classes are commoner, adept, warrior, expert, and aristocrat (and magewright in Eberron, I think that's what it was called...) I meant what I said. It is a prestige class. No restrictions as to NPC or PC.
:bounce:
- What one new class might it present?
- What two new races might it present?
:pile: :P
So we are assuming that its only one class and two races already after only one setting? ...Two things:
1) I'd say wait until Eberron to see if that holds. Just because one is like that doesn't mean all will be. If two are then you actually have a basis for something.
2) Really if you think about it with the... what is it, 5? different kinds of genasi one could in a way say that there are more than just two races. Also, there is the dark pact warlock, so you can kinda say 1.5 classes.:P And I bet that if they are going to do 1 new class and 2 new races in each one, then they will probably do a variant of a class in each one too.
Also, I think that a cool idea if they do limit themselves like that to do a hengeyokai race (from OA) like they did with the genasi. That would allow a kitsune (which actually appears in China, and India, too for those who want more than Japan :P), nezumi, tanuki, and... what's the third special animal in Japanese folklore? (Nezumi were "unique" to Rokugan. There were no rat-people in Japanese folklore :OMG! shocker...)
So you wouldn't allow an evil PC to take the assassin prestige class? Prestige classes are usually for PCs. The NPC classes are commoner, adept, warrior, expert, and aristocrat (and magewright in Eberron, I think that's what it was called...) I meant what I said. It is a prestige class. No restrictions as to NPC or PC.
The bolded part is the problem. There should not be Evil PC's in a party. If your playing an unusual campaign or some arena PVP type stuff, maybe, but not in a regular part of the game.
The Alignment Restriction has made the Assassin in the previous edition into an NPC PrC.
The current offering is simply a PP that adds a bit to the regular class, and not truly the overpowering, rule breaking Assassin like in previous editions. ( I am still confused as to why they used the name)
Players in my games in the previous edition had to choose a good alignment.
Heroic PCs shouldn't be evil. Evil PCs in the party can be quite (interesting).
I prefer the term Disruptive. It makes for the wrong kind of tension. Sometimes an NPC can provide this tension instead, the group having to be with him for some reason, he hires them, needs escorted, or knows where the treasure is.
Sometime it works better when you playing something like Ravenloft, or even Dark Sun, when all the characters are evil (or maybe neutral). Even then, inter party squabbles will become... Disruptive. Sometimes it is interesting, most times, it brings the game to a screeching halt.
Assassin should never been a class, it is NPC stuff in the previous edition, and it is watered down abilities for style for the rogue in this new system.
1) Nowhere does the DMG (or any other source) state that Assassin is limited to only NPCs, or that PCs can't be evil.
2) It's really all just personal preference of the DM, if it suits him and the campaign he can say that all PCs must be Neutral Good, or that dwarves can't be clerics, or that noone is allowed to walk on the grass. But none of those are in the DMG or any other rulebook (maybe an adventure though...:P)
Also, you really should learn to not let things bother you so much. The least of reasons being that WotC purposefully made DnD as flexible as possible. And really, the same tension could be made between the parties paladin and a CN PC, if they role played well enough. Further there are degrees of evil. A PC could claim to be evil if he had an inexplicable urge to punt and drop kick every cat he came across (character idea! :D) and that wouldn't cause much tension... unless there's a ranger or druid, too... but then he could says he's neutral and the tension is still there.
Having about four or five powers for the "Shadow Assassin" is fine for those that want that sort of thing, but the full fledged class of "Assassin" is not to be.
There are those that try different aspects of the game, and that is ok, but there is no such thing as a 'norm'.
There, fixed it for ya...
Little pet peeve of mine, sorry if it offends. :P
And now without further ado, let's get back to the original topic of this thread.
P.S. If it really pisses you off, then go and make your own thread about it and rant all you want there.
I think the separate setting geared toward being an addition to others in form of a separate continent or secluded area is the best way to go, with the classes and races mostly in a PHB, 3 or 4, while the setting has a one or two.
the full fledged class of "Assassin" is not to be.
For you maybe, we may get an actual Assassin class, we don't know yet, which I would totally dig, I'm hoping for Shadow Striker.
For you maybe, we may get an actual Assassin class, we don't know yet, which I would totally dig, I'm hoping for Shadow Striker.
"Shadow Dancer"
People play differently from you, people make typos. Accept it and move on.
Regardless of what certain people might or might not want the Oriental classes are almost certainly going to be Ki power sourced...in the end it really doesn't have any mechanical bearing on the game, so who cares?
"Shadow Dancer"
Never happen, for one reason there will be no class with a 2 word title in 4th Ed.
Never happen, for one reason there will be no class with a 2 word title in 4th Ed.
You know I've seen this tossed around plenty of times, but I still cannot recall where it came from. Anyone care to enlighten me?
However I should point out that it is sort of a pointless argument against the name(even if I disagree that Shadow Dancers will be a base class when we have potential evidence of the "true assassin" class being worked on). It isn't like D&D has never invented compound words before, so calling the class Shadowdancer instead of Shadow Dancer would make it a single word.
For instance, one could have a brawny rogue and a trickster rogue (yes, their builds, but they work off personality types, too). A large, blundering guy would have trouble being an acrobatic thief, though (Cat Burglar).
Just something to note when attempting to predict paths and classes. Classes are broad, paths are narrow. In this case a shadow dancer would have a narrower potential, which denies it class potential but opens the possibility of a path. ...I say this, but then there's the possibility of one of a ninja-like class's builds to be a "shadow dancer."
EDIT: Forgot. They're divine. *shrug* Either way. Its the "elemental" + "spellcaster" part that I like.
However I should point out that it is sort of a pointless argument against the name(even if I disagree that Shadow Dancers will be a base class when we have potential evidence of the "true assassin" class being worked on). It isn't like D&D has never invented compound words before, so calling the class Shadowdancer instead of Shadow Dancer would make it a single word.
But we can all agree that Dancer is not a role in 4th Ed.
Wow. We're getting really nit-picky, aren't we. (Not just you, Steely)
Thoughts?
I don't think it will be a "caster" type class, however, but a class that is akin to a Shadow Hopper.
Thoughts?
I know you hate it, but I could see the Assassin (maybe Ninja) being a Shadow Striker, using shadows to move around and strike from them etc.
Here, the designers struck a good balance at borrowing Asian flavor while still ensuring the race can work well in Nonasian settings too.
I know you hate it, but I could see the Assassin (maybe Ninja) being a Shadow Striker, using shadows to move around and strike from them etc.
Assassin? I talk of a Shadow Dancer, one that has NOTHING to do with hired murder, and the Assassin is mentioned?
Ninja may take this spot, I grant you, but the murder by hire class is one not needed in this new edition.
There were no rat-people in Japanese folklore :OMG! shocker...)
Actually there were a kind of rat-people in Japanese folklore. I wouldn't say they were "people" but a kind of intelligent "goblin rat" of humanoid size. Ever read "The Boy who Drew Cats" by Koizumi Yagumo (Lafcadio Hearn)?
The antagonists in the story are "goblin rats" who inhabit an old abandoned temple in Kyoto. The protagonist monk who draws cats everywhere is saved by his own magically animated cat drawings who kill these goblin rats.
So, indeed a sort of "rat-people" did exist in Japanese folklore! I wouldn't say they were prevalent enough to be called a "race". I base my Japanese folklore knowledge on Japanese folklore, not what D&D or L5R tell me.
GP
Actually there were a kind of rat-people in Japanese folklore. I wouldn't say they were "people" but a kind of intelligent "goblin rat" of humanoid size. Ever read "The Boy who Drew Cats" by Koizumi Yagumo (Lafcadio Hearn)?
The antagonists in the story are (translated by Hearn) goblin rats who inhabit an old abandoned temple in Kyoto. The protagonist monk who draws cats everywhere is saved by his own magically animated cat drawings who kill these rat goblins.
So, indeed a sort of "rat-people" did exist in Japanese folklore! I base my Japanese folklore knowledge on Japanese folklore, not what D&D or L5R tell me.
GP
That other guy just got his Chi pwnt. His Forum Fu was weak. Finish him!
Actually there were a kind of rat-people in Japanese folklore. I wouldn't say they were "people" but a kind of intelligent "goblin rat" of humanoid size. Ever read "The Boy who Drew Cats" by Koizumi Yagumo (Lafcadio Hearn)?
I stand corrected.
So, indeed a sort of "rat-people" did exist in Japanese folklore! I wouldn't say they were prevalent enough to be called a "race". I base my Japanese folklore knowledge on Japanese folklore, not what D&D or L5R tell me.
As do I, and as should everyone. However, a single story is rather easily missed when studying, well, pretty much anything, so please forgive my ignorance.
Oh and as a note to Akuma, for me personally it is:
That other guy just got hisChiKi pwnt. HisForum FuForum-do was weak. Finish him!
I are Japanese nerd, not Chinese. :P lol
If I had to choose one element for the setting to emphasize I'd probably choose intrigue I think....in terms of courts, politics, family, loyalties, honor, public perception, etc.
2) Name: I think the name of the setting should be the name of the actual place...NOT "Oriental Adventures" or any variation thereof. It should be called an actual name of a place.
3) Classes: For a featured campaign class...hmm...it would probably be something not already covered by the basic classes of the power sources. Monks and (I'm guessing) ninja will be introduced in PHs. Shugenja and wu jen seem like they might be fitting the Elemental power source (although we know little about that source yet), so they might be introduced in PHs also. For a setting specific class, well, perhaps the ( Edit: ) COURTIER.
As a martial controller, even! :D4) Races: For a featured campaign race, I like the idea of spirit folk...sort of the primal spirits' answer to the fey-descended half-elves. They'd need some reworking from their 3e rules to make them more distinct. Hmm...vanaras are cool too. I guess it depends on what flavor the setting takes. I think spirit folk work better, between the two of those, since their ties to spirits and to humanity can play up the intrigue/loyalties element.
Just my thoughts at the moment.
1) Though I never really liked Avatar much, if they had based it off of the Chinese elements it would work. (Before anyone says anything, I know that the Japanese elements are fire, water, earth, wind, and void, but a) I believe Avatar is more Chinese based if I'm not mistaken, don't kill me if I'm wrong please and b) we already have that (except void) in the mainstream high fantasy).
2) Agreed
3) I never really liked the courtier much. But given what they've done with the bard I think it might have potential to be decent in 4e. I think that awu jen/shugenja class is probably more likely. Or ninja if it turns out not being in a PH.
4) Spirit Folk are almost synonymous with eladrin. At least, enough so that you could simply rename them for your campaign. For a new setting we should have something completely new. I think that a hengeyokai-type race is more likely. It would allow for everything from kitsune to tengu in one race if they make it like the genasi.
These are my only my opinions of course and people are free to disagree. Discussion is, of course, the main reason for this thread.
I'm using Buddhist ideas (though my religion is called Zao), rather than Shinto as in most Japanese settings. The Wheel of Life construct, an endless cycle of reincarnations between the six realms of the Wheel: heaven, asuras, human, animal, hungry ghost and hell. Four of these "realms" rather than being different planes of existence are divided between the four castes of the Kaidan social structure: Heaven = nobility, Asuras = samurai, Human = commoner/monk, and Hungry Ghost = Hinin (Eta, yakuza, ninja, geisha, entertainers, prostitutes.)
The Animal realm belongs to hengeyokai (barbarian animal shape-changers or Jommon people.)
Hell is the only metaphysically different plane of existence, inhabited by Oni demons.
Though its much more complicated than that - this is the basic gist of my setting.
Lots of undead (yurei ghosts), and many of the nobility are actually undead lords, thus fall outside the Wheel and remain in control at the top, as they cannot reincarnate, being undead. Like I said, a very dark setting.
One issue I'm still working out - when one dies and reincarnates to a different caste, does this mean its a new character, or if somehow memories of a previous life can be "awakened" and the character now becomes multi-class, ie: a samurai dies goes down a realm in reincarnation and is now a monk, in the next death downward becomes a ninja. Movement up and down the caste system based on accumulation of postive or negative "karma" points based on acts done in previous life.
GP
A rather dark version (almost Ravenloftian) of the traditional oriental setting.
The Wheel of Life construct, an endless cycle of reincarnations between the six realms
Lots of undead (yurei ghosts), and many of the nobility are actually undead lords, thus fall outside the Wheel and remain in control at the top, as they cannot reincarnate, being undead. Like I said, a very dark setting.
Hey, sounds pretty cool.
Very interesting spin on things. 
One issue I'm still working out - when one dies and reincarnates to a different caste, does this mean its a new character, or if somehow memories of a previous life can be "awakened" and the character now becomes multi-class, ie: a samurai dies goes down a realm in reincarnation and is now a monk, in the next death downward becomes a ninja. Movement up and down the caste system based on accumulation of postive or negative "karma" points based on acts done in previous life.
This made me chuckle. :D It reminds me of when the epic desiny powers that begin "Once per day, when you die..." were introduced.
In this case it might be "Once per day, when you reincarnate...." :P4) Spirit Folk are almost synonymous with eladrin. At least, enough so that you could simply rename them for your campaign. For a new setting we should have something completely new. I think that a hengeyokai-type race is more likely. It would allow for everything from kitsune to tengu in one race if they make it like the genasi.
Oh, yeah. I totally forgot about hengeyokai, nezumi, kitsune, tengu, et al even though they were mentioned a number of times here. A single race that could capture all that? Could be a cool if they are careful not to step on the shifter's toes/paws. Or perhaps shifters themselves would work?
Eladrin as spirit folk I guess could use additional racial feats (like bamboo, sea, etc.) and could lose sword proficiency and Eladrin learning. I don't know. Making use of the core races is definitely a good idea to look at, but in this case it may be too much of a stretch. A last resort would be to ban eladrin!
A few centuries ago, a distant provincial clan daimyo was introduced to a Boddhisattva monk - that is a person who has discovered the path to enlightenment, and eventually achieved enlightenment, thus was ready to escape the Wheel and reach Nirvana. However, this monk chose to stay behind as spiritual guide leading others down the Path. Those individuals who achieve "enlightenment" yet stay behind are called Boddhisattva, and are the most powerful mage/priest/martial artists of good and keep the evil of Kaidan at bay.
I am currently working on a 3 part mini-campaign arc to be published in June, in a collaborative publication with an established publishing house (in exchange for map work).
GP
Continuing with the race discussion: Shifters are more (in general) bestial and are more or less watered down lycanthropes, what with the shifting and all. It would be pretty easy to make a half-animal race that is permanently "shifted" would very easily avoid stepping on shifter paws. If the hengeyokai race (or whatever it is to be called, since we seem to have difficulty agreeing on names in this thread :P) has a few common features and then a selection of subraces like the genasi have one could very easily fit a half-fox (kitsune, and yes, I know kitsune are full fox, this is for game purposes) under the same heading as a half-crow (tengu) and half-raccoon dog (tanuki, see kitsune note).
They could even half share a racial power that would turn them fully into their animal. Similar to a 3.5e druid's wild shape or something (haven't had a chance to look over the 4e one, just got PHB2 today).
That being said:
Most of the Oriental Adventure classes can and should be created by re-skinning existing classes and including a couple extra class options.
Samurai should be fighters (Any fighter but the sword + Board has a place in OA)
Ninja should be Rogues.
Monks will be detailed in PHB3
Shugenja - Clerics with additional elemental powers/restrictions
Wu Jen - Wizard
Sohei - Re-skinned Paladin
Gotta go to bed so I dont have time to post more. I dont expect we will see OA for a while. It almost needs to be a complete sourcebook with races, classes, Paragon Classes, Epic Destinies, new uses for skills, new feats, new rituals, and new equipment.
I must be one of the only people here that actually liked the d20 incarnation of Rokugan .
Many liked it and many did not like it. I myself was a fan, although I would note that I don't compare it to the d10-based version b/c I never played that one. The translation into d20 seems to be a major sticking point for many people. Having said all that, I do not want the 4e Asiany setting to just be Rokugan all over again unless they, say, emphasize each clan as based on a different cultural mythos. The focus of L5R on just Japan is great for what it is, but I would like a 4e Asiany setting that is much broader. (Also, word has it that WotC no longer owns the rights to the setting anyway.)
That being said:
Most of the Oriental Adventure classes can and should be created by re-skinning existing classes and including a couple extra class options.
Samurai should be fighters (Any fighter but the sword + Board has a place in OA)
Ninja should be Rogues.
Monks will be detailed in PHB3
Shugenja - Clerics with additional elemental powers/restrictions
Wu Jen - Wizard
Sohei - Re-skinned Paladin
People argue about the classes in many different ways. It should be noted that a campaign guide is not likely to introduce 5 new classes, regardless. So if those all come to fruition you will have PHs to blame.
;) I would argue that a certain amount of "re-skinning" is required for any campaign setting, but your minimized/emphasized approach is certainly a valid option for the devs. My only specific note here is that I think the shugenja is a little too complicated to be captured by the cleric class alone...IMHO. 4e seems to use builds, powers, and feats to diversify within a class.....any new features will have to mesh with that entire internal system of the class or it becomes something else entirely.
Out of curiosity, what would it take for you to feel that a new character type merits its own new class? Do you have a suggestion for a class that might be introduced along with a new Asian-based campaign setting?
Gotta go to bed so I dont have time to post more. I dont expect we will see OA for a while. It almost needs to be a complete sourcebook with races, classes, Paragon Classes, Epic Destinies, new uses for skills, new feats, new rituals, and new equipment.
Yes, a complete campaign guide and player's guide are what I personally would like to see.
Assassin? I talk of a Shadow Dancer
You spoke of a Shadow Striker as well, and what with this talk of the "True Assassin" in a recent Dragon article, it is a possibility that the name of the Shadow Striker could be Assassin, that is all, whether you personally like it or not.
The Assassin vibe seems to be embraced in 4th Ed.
You spoke of a Shadow Striker as well, and what with this talk of the "True Assassin" in a recent Dragon article, it is a possibility that the name of the Shadow Striker could be Assassin, that is all, whether you personally like it or not.
The Assassin vibe seems to be embraced in 4th Ed.
As a PP or ED, not a full class. I doubt that Wizards would ever make that mistake as T$R did.
As a PP or ED, not a full class. I doubt that Wizards would ever make that mistake as T$R did.
Shut it. You're really starting to **** me off with all this "PCs can only be good" bs. If WotC intended everyone to be boring and play lawful good PCs, they wouldn't have described the evil and chaotic evil alignments in the Player's Handbook, or the evil deities. They would have saved all that for the DMG.
Now that that's out of my system:
Many liked it and many did not like it. I myself was a fan, although I would note that I don't compare it to the d10-based version b/c I never played that one. The translation into d20 seems to be a major sticking point for many people. Having said all that, I do not want the 4e Asiany setting to just be Rokugan all over again unless they, say, emphasize each clan as based on a different cultural mythos. The focus of L5R on just Japan is great for what it is, but I would like a 4e Asiany setting that is much broader. (Also, word has it that WotC no longer owns the rights to the setting anyway.)
I agree. Rokugan was a decent setting in and of itself, but if one is going to release a book for all (or at least most) Oriental cultures, one should either have a setting that includes, or equally mixes them all. That or have no setting, simply rules and flavor text for possibilities.
People argue about the classes in many different ways. It should be noted that a campaign guide is not likely to introduce 5 new classes, regardless. So if those all come to fruition you will have PHs to blame.
I would argue that a certain amount of "re-skinning" is required for any campaign setting, but your minimized/emphasized approach is certainly a valid option for the devs. My only specific note here is that I think the shugenja is a little too complicated to be captured by the cleric class alone...IMHO. 4e seems to use builds, powers, and feats to diversify within a class.....any new features will have to mesh with that entire internal system of the class or it becomes something else entirely.
Reskinning would work to an extent, (I made my own samurai class by mixing the fighter, two-blade ranger, and warlord classes, basically making the ranger and warlord aspects like the rogue's "Artful Dodger" and... the other one... class feature options) however, I also agree that the shugenja is a bit too complicated to simply replace "radiant" with different elements (though, that could be a start). Also, question: what exactly are the builds. Given that everything non-flavoring in them has the word "Suggested" before it they really seem more like guidelines... Others seem to not have this opinion though...
Out of curiosity, what would it take for you to feel that a new character type merits its own new class? Do you have a suggestion for a class that might be introduced along with a new Asian-based campaign setting?
I am also curious. Your logic on that route almost seems to say "rangers and rogues should have been one, with wizards they didn't really need warlocks and if you wanted to be a bard give your rogue MC: wizard a lute." Not meaning to sound offensive, by the way...
Yes, a complete campaign guide and player's guide are what I personally would like to see.
*nod nod*:bounce:
1.) As a PP or ED, not a full class.
2.) I doubt that Wizards would ever make that mistake as T$R did.
1.) To you maybe, I would love to see a lovely little Assassin class, and we very well might, we don't know yet.
2.) WotC seems more into the Assassin action than TSR, and please don't use the cheap and insulting $ symbol, they made some mistakes, but try and show a little respect, you know?
On an aside to thaX: my current character was a paladin, who having reached 17th level "fell" and is now a Fallen Paladin Black Guard, which was my goal in becoming a Paladin in the first place. My DM just conferred onto me with a Death Knight template - so I am a PC undead Fallen Paladin Black Guard Death Knight (who is just south of Epic)! Hah - all legal by the book. Take that, you "good loving" freak of unnature! :embarrass - end thread jack...
Know that the assassin role is more than just murder, spying is at the heart of this class, as well as a "ninja" class.
GP
I too would like to see an updated Assassin CLASS.
Know that the assassin role is more than just murder, spying is at the heart of this class, as well as a "ninja" class.
GP
That would be Ninja, or a "Spy" for a class. Assassin is murder by hire, a person used to take out high profile targets and not expected to live long. They charge high prices and live day by day. An assassin is not a spy.
Question for anyone but thaX: Is it at all possible to boot someone from a thread, so that we can get off the legality of a PC assassin and back to what this thread was originally made for?
...its kinda anoying that they * out |*|$$
I still think that a setting placable into existing campaigns would be more likely than a complete other world for Oriental setting. It makes more sense that way.
Well, in 3e Assassin was a (NPC) prestige class and Ninja was a base class. In 4e Martial Power they have an assassin paragon, so...
There, fixed that for ya...
Little pet peeve of mine, sorry if it offends.
Not only did you start it, you were the one who continued it when I tried to stop it about two days ago.
And now without further ado, let's get back to the original topic of this thread.
P.S. If it really pisses you off, then go and make your own thread about it and rant all you want there.
That would be Ninja, or a "Spy" for a class. Assassin is murder by hire, a person used to take out high profile targets and not expected to live long. They charge high prices and live day by day. An assassin is not a spy.
A Ninja is often considered a Japanese Assassin.
You seem to have a slightly myopic view of an Assassin, especially as it pertains to D&D, and especially 4th Ed, they might assassinate criminals, evil agents or devils or what have you, is the Avenger automatically considered evil, no, but they are also an assassin, just a divine one, so we could easily have a Shadow one: Assassin.
I know you're going to bring up Ninja, and that is also a possibility for a Shadow Striker, but they could easily turn out to be Ki.
Assassin/Avenger/Hassassin/Holy Slayer/Ninja etc.
I think you should quit while you're behind on your anti-Assassin campaign/crusade on these boards.
Looking forward the new assassin class also. Bring on the hired murderers!
The point was that there won't be an Assassin class. It isn't needed.
Have you still not taken a look at Martial Power? There is an assassin (either path or destiny, can't remember) in it. They have one already!
That makes three PP/ED of Assassins. (PHB rogue PP, PHB Avenger PP, and the one you mention)
That isn't a full class. That isn't needed.
Have you still not taken a look at Martial Power? There is an assassin (either path or destiny, can't remember) in it. They have one already!
Ah but we don't have the mythical "true assassin" that strangles people with shadows, walks through walls, and can change his appearance at will.:D
Ah but we don't have the mythical "true assassin" that strangles people with shadows, walks through walls, and can change his appearance at will.:D
BUHAHAHA! I am greatly looking forward to that class, since that is just too cool of a concept to not be a class. I have always liked such characters since I first tried out the Lasombra in Masquerade.
1.) The point was that there won't be an Assassin class.
2.) It isn't needed.
1.) We don't know if there will or won't be an Assassin class, please don't lie to people.
2.) You don't think it's needed (I would love to see a delightful Assassin class), and while we're talking about needs, we don't really need any other classes aside from Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard, everything else is gravy.
Steely Dan: You don't think it's needed (I would love to see a delightful Assassin class), and while we're talking about needs, we don't really need any other classes aside from Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard, everything else is gravy.
LOL! You don't think any other classes are needed aside from Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard. (But I would love to see a delightful Psi power source.)
LOL! You don't think any other classes are needed aside from Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard. (But I would love to see a delightful Psi power source.)
He was being facetious. However, if you really want to be simplistic you could say a warrior-type class and a spellcaster class are all that's needed. :P But then they'd need a few more options in order to keep enough people interested to actually make a profit off of the game.
Any class can be an Assassin. They only need to accept money for cold blooded murder.
There are three PP's that have the Assassin name. I assume from this that a class with that name will not have a 30 level progression. It isn't needed.
LOL! You don't think any other classes are needed aside from Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard. (But I would love to see a delightful Psi power source.)
Wow, you're really not good at this, but we all know what you were trying to do; as eiyu said, I was being slightly facetious, and I even said we don't really need, which is true, but I understand your desire for some lovely psionic action, I want it to.
1.) Any class can be an Assassin.
2.) It isn't needed.
1.) Any class can be a warrior.
2.) I think you're getting needs and wants confused, you don't want an Assassin class (shadow striker), I do.
1.) Any class can be a warrior.
*pst*A better example would be either fighter, cleric, rogue, warlord, or bard.
1.) Any class can be a warrior.
2.) I think you're getting needs and wants confused, you don't want an Assassin class (shadow striker), I do.
Sigh.
A wizard can't wear armor, nor is he proficient with a number of weapons. He can still take a dagger and slit a man's throat while he sleeps, though, for money.
You want an Assassin. I don't want the headache of saying "NO" to those that want to play it.
It is a class that is narrow in scope, antagonistic to a group setting, and has no real purpose in the game. An assassin NPC doesn't need a class to perform paid killings, and a pc assassin tips to much to the Evil Player Character PVP situations.
It isn't needed for this new edition. Keep it in the PP/ED realm. Make a ninja instead, they have a better background and have more history and abilities to make use of.
1.) A wizard can't wear armor,
2.) It is a class that is narrow in scope
3.) It isn't needed for this new edition.
1.) Of course they can.
2.) The scope doesn't have to be narrow for a D&D shadow striker class called Assassin, you're too hung up on your real world view/interpretation of the word assassin.
3.) There you go again, purposely repeating your confusion between needs and wants. They seem to actually be embracing the assassin in this edition.
*pst*A better example would be either fighter, cleric, rogue, warlord, or bard.
Teach a warlock how to use a warhammer, [u]then[/u] say that to him :P
It is a class that is narrow in scope, antagonistic to a group setting, and has no real purpose in the game. An assassin NPC doesn't need a class to perform paid killings, and a pc assassin tips to much to the Evil Player Character PVP situations.
Yes, because the warlock is all frills and butterflies. (Oo! Role-play idea!:D )
Y'know, I think he's the anti-Bodhisatva. Shows us the true spirit of D&D by being completely contradictory to it. Lulz
and a pc assassin tips to much to the Evil Player Character PVP situations.
You know, I've never understood why so many people think assassins have to be evil, or even non-good. The alignment restrictions of paladins and assasins in previous editions were particularly egregious: a violently intolerant religious fanatic was "always lawful-good", while someone who could save the lives of millions by ending the life of one tyrant (or potential future tyrant) would be "always evil".
I guess it fitted with the rather wierd moral view taken of poison, where it was somehow more morally reprehensible to kill someone quickly and painlessly with poison than to brutally hack them into gory chunks with a sword.
For an example of a (in D&D alignment terms) lawful-good assassin, read Robin Hobb's Farseer trilogy. Actually, read all of Hobb's books anyway, since they're really good.
You know, I've never understood why so many people think assassins have to be evil, or even non-good. The alignment restrictions of paladins and assasins in previous editions were particularly egregious: a violently intolerant religious fanatic was "always lawful-good", while someone who could save the lives of millions by ending the life of one tyrant (or potential future tyrant) would be "always evil".
I guess it fitted with the rather wierd moral view taken of poison, where it was somehow more morally reprehensible to kill someone quickly and painlessly with poison than to brutally hack them into gory chunks with a sword.
For an example of a (in D&D alignment terms) lawful-good assassin, read Robin Hobb's Farseer trilogy. Actually, read all of Hobb's books anyway, since they're really good.
While I don't use alignment in my games I am glad that this view seems to have changed with 4e. You can have Evil Paladins and Good Assassins, as per the Assassin article where it has a whole discussion on how every alignment can suit the Assassin. Good thinking on the designers to change that alignment view.
The Assassin class just represents covert ops. Arguably, 'James Bond' types could be this class, albeit specifically working to infliltrate and neutralize the BBEG.
In fact, the Assassin would be identical to the 'Intelligent' Rogue, that some players are calling for. As of now, the Bard inherited all the Intelligent Rogue aspects, like skill monkey.
Rather than a separate class, Id rather see the Assassin be a class build for the Rogue or Bard. Believe it or not, the Bard could be an excellent class for an Assassin build that specializes in 'acting', impersonation and infiltration. (Whats the name of that show? Leverage?) The Assassin build would include stealth abilities for the Bards multidiscipline savvy. The option of Assassin would give the Bard class a darker edge, which would raise its credibility for some players. Of course, the Rogue is a good choice for an Assassin build too, and could be identical with a non-mystical Ninja build.
In any case, if the Assassin becomes a class build for the Rogue or Bard, I feel its important for it to also have NONLETHAL powers to neutralize the BBEG (and cronies). For example, an Alchemy feat to make paralysis poison, to restrain the BBEG for trial and prison. At higher levels, perhaps even give it a magical power to forcibly alter the BBEG personality (sorta like a helmet of opposite alignment) - with the sense, a high court jury has already reach a verdict that the BBEG is an irredeemable threat to innocents, and too powerful to imprison, so that violation of the BBEGs personaltiy and freewill is the only just alternative possible, besides execution.
The possibility of Nonlethal neutralization of targets makes plausible the not-necessarily-evil aspects of an Assassin build.
Bel
You know, I've never understood why so many people think assassins have to be evil, or even non-good.
I shall enlighten you. The Assassin isn't complicated, though the work he does can be. He is paid, then he kills his target or group. He/she does so without remorse, feeling or caring of the results from the action. They work alone, and avoid prolonged combat if at all possible. The killing an Assassin does does not happen on the battlefield, but in the urban environment, preferably when the target is in a relaxed state, or sleeping.
Most good people would not think of this as a profession, and look at an Assassin total disregard to life and community as something that blackens their soul and fills them with animosity.
The Warlock took a sad turn and is the most restrictive class in the book, having powers specifically tied to pacts instead of having the freedom to choose powers according to style. The dark aspect of the Warlock wasn't one that I was overly thrilled to see coming. (ask the others, they seen my posts on this)
So, I repeat my take on the subject of the thread...
OA will not be called such, but should be a setting that can be inserted into already running campaigns. Races and Classes will mostly be in a PHB with one or two in the Setting Campaign Guide.
I would hope the Monk is more than just the Unarmed Fighter. I think the Ninja is the Shadow Striker, not that other thing we have been going over.
I shall enlighten you. The Assassin isn't complicated, though the work he does can be. He is paid, then he kills his target or group. He/she does so without remorse, feeling or caring of the results from the action. They work alone, and avoid prolonged combat if at all possible. The killing an Assassin does does not happen on the battlefield, but in the urban environment, preferably when the target is in a relaxed state, or sleeping.
Most good people would not think of this as a profession, and look at an Assassin total disregard to life and community as something that blackens their soul and fills them with animosity.
The Warlock took a sad turn and is the most restrictive class in the book, having powers specifically tied to pacts instead of having the freedom to choose powers according to style. The dark aspect of the Warlock wasn't one that I was overly thrilled to see coming. (ask the others, they seen my posts on this)
@Everyone but thax: What the heck? Is this guy even reading our posts? Man, I'd so like to run this forum, just so I could kick him out.
@thax: #1: In your first sentence, you mixed up two very different things. Hitmen are hired, an assassin kills for political, moral, religious or similar motivations. Therefore a covert individual who wishes to kill the tyranical and corrupt leaders of Thay (haven't read much into the history and stuff for Thay, yet so I don't know what the political structure is, but regardless) to release the population from their cruel and firm rule would most undoubtedly BE A BLOODY ASSASSIN!!!! Even if he was paid and felt no remorse. Speaking of, adventures hack goblins and kobolds into tiny bits for raiding a village. They steal and the adventurers take the law into their own hands and murder the kobolds. The saying "an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" was meant as a maximum not a minimum. These adventurers have clearly overstepped the bounds defined by most "good" societies and when the kobold/goblin women and children die during the harsh winter because the supplies that the men went to go get never get there, while the PCs are welcomed as BLOODY HEROES!!!
Which is the good and which is the evil character, the assassin (situation 1, with Thay, etc.) or the paladin (situation 2, with the goblins, etc.)?
Hitmen are hired, an assassin kills for political, moral, religious or similar motivations. Therefore a covert individual who wishes to kill the tyranical and corrupt leaders of Thay (haven't read much into the history and stuff for Thay, yet so I don't know what the political structure is, but regardless) to release the population from their cruel and firm rule would most undoubtedly BE A BLOODY ASSASSIN!!!!
Hitmen is a modern term for an Assassin.
Those that kill for political reasons are naive. They acutally think that the death of one man will make a difference in the whole scheme of things. In D&D, another will take the place of one that has fallen, and might even make things worse. Assassin's within the story of Thay are not those with the class "Assassin," but are those with skills that are used in the performance of the assassination, whether they come from Rogue, Fighter, or Wizard class.
Taking care of those monsters that are terrorizing the town is quite different than slitting a man's throat as he sleeps. When the group does take things to far, that is when the DM has the City Watch inquire about them and has their reputation sullied.
I shall enlighten you.
Please don't try, we're all really tired of you playing a twisted form of devil's advocate for the sake of it, especially when we've all proven you are incorrect time and time again– please stop stirring it up and trying to get the last word in for the hell of it, it has gone beyond tiresome and tedious and now simply comes across as spam.
Thanking you in advance, for all of us.
I shall enlighten you.
Err... The "I've never understood why" bit was (fairly obviously, I thought) a rhetorical device. It's no real mystery why some people have such a screwy idea of the relative morality of assassination versus hacking people to bits on the battlefield (or in a dungeon). My point is that there's simply no consistent moral/ethical logic to such a position. Your attempt at an explanation doesn't change that.
What the heck? Is this guy even reading our posts?
I'm sure he is. He just disagrees with... well, everyone. You at least have to give him props for sticking to his guns.
Man, I'd so like to run this forum, just so I could kick him out.
The Ignore List feature exists for a reason...
Therefore a covert individual who wishes to kill the tyranical and corrupt leaders of Thay (haven't read much into the history and stuff for Thay, yet so I don't know what the political structure is, but regardless)
Currently, that would be a bunch of liches.
Those that kill for political reasons are naive.
You... you just broke my irony meter.
It's hilarious, really. I can't help thinking of [a close family member], now in his seventies, with probably more life experience than everyone who's posted in this thread put together, who you just implied is naive.
Assassin's within the story of Thay are not those with the class "Assassin," but are those with skills that are used in the performance of the assassination
You won't win an argument by changing the definitions of terms to suit you. Especially since you couldn't even remain consistent in your use of the term within a single post.
"You can't argue with all the fools in the world. It's better to let them have their way, then trick them when they're not paying attention."
One last thing, then I vote we simply ignore everything he says. (Thanks for the note, Dusk, btw).
thax. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to vocabulary. Don't even try it.
as⋅sas⋅sin [uh-sas-in]
–noun
1. a murderer, esp. one who kills a politically prominent person for fanatical reasons.
2. (initial capital letter) one of an order of Muslim fanatics, active in Persia and Syria from about 1090 to 1272, whose chief object was to assassinate Crusaders.
This is the "modern" definition of a ******* assassin. Now shut it.
And so, without further ado, back to the original topic. (Again, remember, we are to ignore Mr. Pugnacious here, oui?)
I think a good idea would be to make a ...would it be called a fan-book?... for this potential not-called-OA-but essentially-similar campaign setting, for until they decide to make their own. What do you guys think?
Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
as⋅sas⋅sin [uh-sas-in]
–noun
1. a murderer, esp. one who kills a politically prominent person for fanatical reasons.
2. (initial capital letter) one of an order of Muslim fanatics, active in Persia and Syria from about 1090 to 1272, whose chief object was to assassinate Crusaders.
So, my reasoning is flawed because instead of being paid, the man is insane?
Not helping your cause here...
So, my reasoning is flawed because instead of being paid, the man is insane?
Not helping your cause here...
Yeah, I think we should give up on this, basically, all your posts boil down to sticking your fingers in your ears and saying la-la-la-la-la-la-la-I'm not listening!
In this case: An assassin is always an evil hired killer, an assassin is always an evil hired killer, an assassin is always an evil hired killer…
…It's almost like that scene in The Shining…
I think a good idea would be to make a ...would it be called a fan-book?... for this potential not-called-OA-but essentially-similar campaign setting, for until they decide to make their own. What do you guys think?
This is what the GSL forum is for. Someone on these boards named Beej was talking about taking Filipino myths and legends and putting them into a campaign setting that he was going to post in the GSL forum. It was suppose to be done either last month or this month, but I haven't seen it yet. I haven't been checking too often though, so I might have just missed it. I've been tempted to try something similar, but I'm lazy, I'm not so creative, and I don't organize my thoughts well enough to make a workable setting. Good luck to those that try it.
Before I get burned for mentioning it, the only reason I'm going Pathfinder, is that I'm not an established game designer. This project is a collaborative effort with an existing publisher and he hasn't signed on to the GSL, so that' the main reason I'm producing under the different system.
But its almost like the same situation for you guys. There is currently no Oriental Adventures 4e, so you guys have to "wing" something yourself, until WotC does so. I can't use OA 3e, because its not Open Content - so I have to make my own.
And here I thought I was just developing a setting and small campaign arc, no instead I'm designing a new rules set.
GP
I don't really think an Assassin class is necessary, but I also don't think it would be a big deal if it was there. You don't want the trouble of saying "No"? If that's a problem, stop DMing and stick to playing. As a DM, "No" is likely to be one of the most common things you say during character generation.
I've had groups with an Evil Assassin in them right along side a good cleric. There was party strife, conflict, and in the end, it was great! The roleplaying was much more alive than "Oh, an NPC. Who has the highest Charisma? Okay, you talk then." The players actually had to justify themselves to each other, their back stories came out, and it was found out that yes, the Assassin was evil - And the Cleric didn't try to kill him, or turn him away, he tried to convert him.
And if you don't think that a single person being killed can make a difference, I think you need to look back at history and get a clue. Assassination makes a huge difference in history.
In the end, an Assassin class is, at this point, purely optional. But, a majority of classes are optional - You can run an entire game using only the Martial power source, and it'll work perfectly fine. You could say "No Clerics - Organized religion is nothing more than lies told by people seeking to control the masses!" and you know what - Your faulty logic isn't going to convince WotC that it was a mistake to publish the Cleric! And it's not going to convince them that an Assassin is a bad choice.
After all, they published the Book of Vile Darkness, and they've supported evil characters in the past. Don't doubt that they'll do it again, either soon, or in the future at some point. D&D isn't just about the good guys!
One last thing, then I vote we simply ignore everything he says.
...
(Again, remember, we are to ignore Mr. Pugnacious here, oui?)
Just a refresher. Even so, Serow, I believe you probably said it better than all of us combined. ;)
I've been tempted to try something similar, but I'm lazy, I'm not so creative, and I don't organize my thoughts well enough to make a workable setting. Good luck to those that try it.
Heh, same here. That's the reason my group doesn't let DM much, unless our regular is helping me. A lot. :raincloud
Actually the word "shugenja" is not really an occupation, but the name applied to one who practices Shugendo. Like how a person who follows the path of Christianity is called a Christian. That is the format for the name "shugenja".
As an example. It may be true that a Crusader Knight is also a Frenchman and a Christian. One would not point out a Crusader Knight and say "he's a Christian" unless those who were talking about it, weren't Christians. The proper description would be Crusader Knight.
On the same hand, you would point out the guy, "He's a Yamabushi", not "he's a Shugenja" as that word applies to anyone who believes in Shugendo, which include laity, barbarians, hengeyokai, not just Yamabushi.
GP
Ok first off i completely agree with everyone. We need an update. I had been checking the web for a couple of months resently over a rumor i heard. appearently the people who own the license for Rokugan are planning a 4e update soon. though i havent been able to confirm a date for its release. id liek to see if anyone knows if im right. and if I am i will be watchign it carefully. I hated rokugan it made running an "asian" campaign to hard. it was to strict in its build i think. i ended up houserulling so much ****. i almost had to re write the story for it. Resently ive been rebuilding a sort of OA campaign from the ground up. I have a few classes in the works. I have a Samurai class that I'm working on (its on here somewhere), found a full homebrew Ninja class (Hanzo187 did the work), the onyl thing i really need to work on is the Shugenja. But after reading the post above i like the name change to Yamabushi. It reminds me of MTG's Kamigawa. If i get around to getting a preview done for the heroic tier ill post it.
Fourth edition of the roll and keep game system not compatible with the fourth edition of D&D.
I would love some sort of Oriental Adventure's update and setting. As a question though I have to ask. Would it make more sense for us to wait and hope, or to start putting something together? I'll see you lot on the Campaigns and Adventures Board.