This way Ki could be independent of the oriental mindset, but the campaign setting could provide alternative builds to Ki classes for the oriental setting.
The ki defender could have a samurai build
The ki leader could have a yakuza build
etc...
There could even be stuff in there to make wizards into wu jen and such.
1st/2nd Edition - you had the Hardcover book, which put the setting in Kara-Tur. Later on, a boxed set came out which attached Kara-Tur to the Forgotten Realms. There was even the FR Horde set of novels that connected KT to the rest of the Realms, and introduced a Mongol race. KT was basically the "default" OA setting, all OA modules and other support coming out more or less tied to it.
2nd E - All the oriental classes got turned into kits in the "complete Xclass handbook" series. That sucked.
3rd Edition - WotC purchased the L5R setting, Rokugan, from AEG. I haven't been following what's gone on with that setting in the meantime, but I do know that AEG recently printed the L5R 3rd edition, using an updated version of their old school d10 system. Personally, I find it much better than that hybrid/wannabe system and support that WotC and AEG put out for the 3E attempt.
My guess is that WotC probably can't just use Rokugan as a setting anymore. Are they going to go back to Kara-Tur? Or try to come up with something you can add onto any campaign that isn't connected to all the FR stuff?
Shame that. I love the Rokugan setting.
I do as well, but I honestly think it's better back in AEG (and L5R 3E) hands. The attempt to "d20"-ize it was just horrible and never felt right.
As for "Asia" not being an appropriate fantasy setting, whyever not? We've been playing in "Europe" ever since DnD was invented. A fantasy version of Asia has a lot to offer.
Personally I'd rather see them do it the original way, create a set of rules that can be tacked onto any game world, any campaign, rather than try to create a whole new world. I'd like to see them do the same thing with the Arabian setting that also got tacked onto the FR.
I do agree that "Japan" (rather than "Asia") is inappropriate as a non-anime campaign setting (anime being a genre I would like to see in 4e, perhaps with some kind of BESM crossover like they had for v3.5). Any "oriental" setting that cannot also encompass fantasy versions of the shaolin monks, chinese immortals, the mongol warlords, and traditions I'm unaware of from korea (and the rest of asia) is inadequate as an "oriental" setting.
I don't know if the pervailing wisdom puts India in with "oriental" cultures. If it does, such a setting should also allow for fantasy versions of Yogi's, thuggees, and other Indian mythos.
I don't know if the pervailing wisdom puts India in with "oriental" cultures. If it does, such a setting should also allow for fantasy versions of Yogi's, thuggees, and other Indian mythos.
Yeah, India is "Asian"...typically you might group things into East, Southeast, and South Asia--India being in the South.
(I think traditionally most American pop culture focuses only on East Asia.)I've mentioned before that I hope the Asian-based campaign will have one or two major themes to it besides just being Asian-based. Kind of like how Eberron isn't just cyberpunk or fantasytech or whatever you call it; it's also dark pulp and post-apocalyptic. So you might have Asian/Renaissance/Intrigue or Asian/Anime/Gunslinger or other possibilities.
2010 does seem rather "soon" to drop the setting, but it would be a huge curveball to surprise the community and keep us on our toes.
2010 does seem rather "soon" to drop the setting, but it would be a huge curveball to surprise the community and keep us on our toes.
Its also a way of sending all the Rabid Dark Sun Fans in the other thread into a frenzy ;)
Its also a way of sending all the Rabid Dark Sun Fans in the other thread into a frenzy ;)
What's a "Dark Sun"?
I'm serious.
What's a "Dark Sun"?
I'm serious.
It's a 2nd edition setting where arcane magic was based off the land, drawing energy off the earth to power spells, 2 types of arcane casters existed, Defilers, who sucked a lot of energy away, leaving desolation, and Preservers who knew how to balance the power they drew away. Psionics were very common, there was no steel, bone and stone weapons were much more common. The entire setting I believe was a desert as well.
Thats my understanding... I never actually read the sourcebooks or played in in
It's a 2nd edition setting where arcane magic was based off the land, drawing energy off the earth to power spells, 2 types of arcane casters existed, Defilers, who sucked a lot of energy away, leaving desolation, and Preservers who knew how to balance the power they drew away. Psionics were very common, there was no steel, bone and stone weapons were much more common. The entire setting I believe was a desert as well.
Thats my understanding... I never actually read the sourcebooks or played in in
Sounds kind of meh, honestly. I'd rather have something where I can call up scorching balls of death with no repercussions. :D
It's a 2nd edition setting where arcane magic was based off the land, drawing energy off the earth to power spells, 2 types of arcane casters existed, Defilers, who sucked a lot of energy away, leaving desolation, and Preservers who knew how to balance the power they drew away. Psionics were very common, there was no steel, bone and stone weapons were much more common. The entire setting I believe was a desert as well.
Thats my understanding... I never actually read the sourcebooks or played in in
I played Dark Sun a couple of times, and that's pretty accurate. I lost more characters to exposure and dehydration than I did in battle. Yay, how heroic.
Yay, how heroic.
Some people prefer grit to playing at being better than everyone else. ;) And then some play whatever the bells they wish, rolled together in a sandwich.
I would appreciate an Asian-cultured campaign setting, but, as said before, the cultural basis is hardly the be-all of a campaign setting. FR, for example, is more than "Europe." Twelve Kingdoms or Tenra Bansho are (to me, anyway) exciting examples. It could birthe side-systems such as karma, loyalty, plot-point goals, or some other alternative to alignment. The cosmology could be different, as well. I also like for campaign setting books to look like it came from there, separate from the generic books (but that seems to be only in the 3e settings...).
Some people prefer grit to playing at being better than everyone else. ;) And then some play whatever the bells they wish, rolled together in a sandwich.
I would appreciate an Asian-cultured campaign setting, but, as said before, the cultural basis is hardly the be-all of a campaign setting. FR, for example, is more than "Europe." Twelve Kingdoms or Tenra Bansho are (to me, anyway) exciting examples. It could birthe side-systems such as karma, loyalty, plot-point goals, or some other alternative to alignment. The cosmology could be different, as well. I also like for campaign setting books to look like it came from there, separate from the generic books (but that seems to be only in the 3e settings...).
As I had suggested Twelve Kingdoms before, I have to second your proposal for it, or at least something like it. Rulers on high, the ability to become immortal, it has a lot of good RPG ideas in it, but with plenty of room and need for social interaction instead of fighting reaction.
I don't think it's so simple as to say there won't ever be another OA book. I think it's a matter of finding an idea that goes deeper than Oriental Adventures and creates a viable fantasy setting.
I think the Kamigawa setting did this perfectly, and I'm pretty sure, more than any mtg world, this one would be best converted to an RPG setting.
In all seriousness, I can't see Oriental Adventures Ocurring before Elemental gets released. Too much of it is elemental based, and too many elementals have a oriental feel (Ravaasta, Rakshasa, etc). Wu Jen and Shugenja probably fall into Elemental class territory, in all seriousness. This is something not for 2010, maybe not even for the 2011 Campaign Setting.
Because what are we going to do after PH4? Pull out more Power Sources to continue the PH books, like Dream or Puppy? Or maybe go in a new direction, like releasing rules to adapt the core rules to setting that don't use the standard World Axis, or have a completely different feel from the primarily Western European nature of the game, but don't constitute their own CS?
They could do ones that reflavour the world into one that's somewhat Arabic feeling, or Asiatic feeling. Adventures would be a nice title for this series. And really, these would be as bulky as PH or CG/PG books, so they would have a lot to pull for the year.
Though... Dream Power would be really cool (Thank you, Mini Carl Jung!) and PUPPY POWER!!!! would be just hilarious (and maybe useful for Gnomes...)
Because what are we going to do after PH4? Pull out more Power Sources to continue the PH books, like Dream or Puppy?
PHB5 will be introduce the Caffeine, Hubris and Solar power sources.
I don't think it's so simple as to say there won't ever be another OA book. I think it's a matter of finding an idea that goes deeper than Oriental Adventures and creates a viable fantasy setting.
Yes, this is what I think as well. It'll be deeper than just adding an Asian-esque veneer. Thus, in my opinion, it would be best as a full-fledged campaign setting guide rather than a "tweaking & reflavoring" article--although that could have its place too. This depth issue seems to be the crux of "will there be a 4e Asian-based setting" debates. What both sides can agree on is probably that an Asian-esque veneer by itself would not be enough for a viable campaign setting.
As I see it, it's like the difference between taking a feat to use the longsword and taking Fighter as your base class. Both can be handy, but I personally want the one that stands on its own. I understand others would be satisfied with the scope of just an article. Maybe the devs will give us both to choose from.
Bipolar power source... hee... hee...
Kamigawa would feel out of place without the other parts of the Magic Planescape. That said... maybe it's time for a Magic Campaign Setting?
They could do ones that reflavour the world into one that's somewhat Arabic feeling, or Asiatic feeling. Adventures would be a nice title for this series. And really, these would be as bulky as PH or CG/PG books, so they would have a lot to pull for the year.
Though... Dream Power would be really cool (Thank you, Mini Carl Jung!) and PUPPY POWER!!!! would be just hilarious (and maybe useful for Gnomes...)
I don't know if you recall, but they did have an arabian nights style setting called Al-Quadim. It is still one of my favorite settings, and I would love to see it brought into the 4e universe. Honestly, I am torn over what I would prefer to see first, 4e Al-Quadim or 4e OA.
Also, as long as Wizards doesn't turn a MtG setting into nothing more than a shill for the CCG, I would really enjoy such a thing.
Bipolar power source... hee... hee...
Meh. Shadar-kai chaos sorcerers already have that one well covered.
And before anyone gets offended, I can get away with that joke for more or less the same reason Jon Stewart can get away with making jokes about Jews...
Anyway, I keep seeing people saying, essentially, that we should have 'Asian' and 'Middle-Eastern' settings to balance out the supposedly 'European' core setting. Have you guys not noticed that this 'European' setting has kensai, janissaries, efreeti, deva, rakshasa and a million-and-one other emphatically non-European elements already? Describing the core setting as 'European' and using that as an argument for a 'non-European' setting is ridiculous.
Settings based on a single real-world culture usually end up as simplistic, insulting caricatures and should be avoided like the plague, IMO. The core setting is quite flexible enough to be used for 'Asian' or other non-European themed campaigns with a little bit of imagination. We don't need classes called 'samurai' or 'ninja' or 'dervish' to make characters that fit those archetypes.
If you want an 'Asian' setting where paladins are called 'samurai' and rogues are called 'ninja' (and always multiclass into warlock so they can turn invisible and stuff), then you can already do that. You don't need a new sourcebook to tell you this is permissible. If you want the flavour of an 'Asian' setting, then do some research (Wikipedia exists for a reason) and incorporate real-world Asian cultural and historical elements into your own setting. Or pick up the sourcebooks that already exist from previous editions and adapt the fluff to fit the new edition's mechanics.
That so many people seem to need an official sourcebook to tell them they're allowed to use their imaginations and change the core fluff makes me worry for the future of the hobby, frankly. The world where your D&D campaigns take place is not in a book and isn't created by WotC. It's in the infinite realms of your own imagination and is created by the interaction of you and your friends, with whatever outside influences you choose to incorporate.
That so many people seem to need an official sourcebook to tell them they're allowed to use their imaginations and change the core fluff makes me worry for the future of the hobby, frankly. The world where your D&D campaigns take place is not in a book and isn't created by WotC. It's in the infinite realms of your own imagination and is created by the interaction of you and your friends, with whatever outside influences you choose to incorporate.
Duskweaver:
You are correct in that we don't need sourcebooks to tell us what we can and cannot do. We are asking, as consumers, for a product that we are implicity stating we would like to purchase so we don't have to do all the work of researching it for ourselves. DM's already have enough work to do without having to add setting research to the list as well (this is especially the case for working DM's). I don't know if this didn't occur to you, but I have no doubt that you are bright enough to realize it on your own.
Also, out of my own personal curiosity, Paladins as samurai? Paladins are certainly able to fit the bill (from an armor and melee combat perspective), but I am curious why a divine powered class is more like the samurai than the fighter.
DM's already have enough work to do without having to add setting research to the list as well
If it's just books of campaign setting fluff you want, then those books already exist from previous editions.
I should probably make clear, though, that I am in no way opposed to WotC bringing out new books of campaign setting fluff, including 'Oriental' themed ones. I just don't think it should be a priority and don't think people actually need such things in order to create campaigns set in such a world. I also think great care should be taken so as to create a setting that's not just a collection of embarassingly simplistic ethnic stereotypes (which was the thing that finally put me off Warhammer for good).
Also, out of my own personal curiosity, Paladins as samurai? Paladins are certainly able to fit the bill (from an armor and melee combat perspective), but I am curious why a divine powered class is more like the samurai than the fighter.
It was merely an example. A fighter would work just as well. As would a swordmage, warden or warlord. It all depends on what particular flavour of 'samurai' you're going for. If you're primarily aiming for real-world historical accuracy, then you'll presumably only be using martial characters. IMO, that would make for a very dull game.
I also agree with you that any kind of flavor guide for campaign settings should be designed with an eye on avoiding making such cultures/campaigns into crude stereotypes.
"Asia" is not an appropriate fantasy setting.
Why not?
What's a "Dark Sun"?
I'm serious.
Dark Sun was (in my opinion) a great campaign setting. It was a deliberately different D&D world. It was like this weird combination of Native American, Tattooine and the excesses of Rome. The world was suffering from ecological and cultural disaster. Magic had used up the life-force of the world to the point that vegetation and water were both rare and precious, and desert was spreading steadily everywhere. The "civilized" slave-owning society was formed into city-states, which were lorded over by the Dragon Kings, who were psionicists who used the suffering and sacrifice of their people to ascend into twisted draconic forms.
Oh, and the halflings were cannibals. That was the best part.
I think that Dark Sun did help to illustrate that, while the beloved cliches of D&D will always be nice, the game can go beyond your standard pseudo-European medieval-fetish campaign setting. D&D has a lot of -- actually infinite -- potential for variety.
The same goes for (check out this segue) an "Oriental Adventures" style of campaign setting. Though I agree that the name is kind of outdated.
I very much liked Kara-Tur and the whole Forgotten Realms take on Asia. It was more analogous to real-world Asia than the western end of the continent is to real-world Europe, but I regarded that as a good thing, since I really don't know very much about Asia and this way I at least get a sense of some of the legendary version.
I actually liked Maztica and Al-Qadim, too. Never played in them, though. But the setting were an interesting read. If they could be updated and repackaged -- say, as a single book each -- I'd buy 'em.
I prefer the answer... no.
I kind of have a preferance in the direction of... no.
You could say I'm.... negative on this issue.
That I'm... not behind it 100%.
That I'd... rather beat myself in the head with the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide several times.
Ki is an oriental power source. The sooner people get out of their minds that that it's a -bad- thing to have a power source from a mythology other than medieval Europe, the better.
"Asia" is not an appropriate fantasy setting.
but medieval Europe is?
Could, someone explain to me how the above quote isn't racist?
Maybe I've just been watching too much InuYasha lately or maybe I remember great settings like "Jade Oath" but I love the fantasy ideas I see in Asian stories. I like the concept of players that can be half-demons and demon hunters, ect. Even if we never get full setting for OA I'd still be very grateful for as many classes, races, treasures, monsters, and ect I can get in other books.
I can't figure out why Asian mythology can't be created in a DnD game.
Nobody has said it can't. The point is that a lot of it is already there and more can easily be added without the need for any new mechanics or sourcebooks.
Ki is an oriental power source.
And you know this how? Ki is described as 'soul energy' in the PHB1, which implies it's not a straight adaptation of the real-world concept of the same name.
The sooner people get out of their minds that that it's a -bad- thing to have a power source from a mythology other than medieval Europe, the better.
Nobody has said it's a bad thing to have non-European influences in D&D. There are already a lot of non-European influences in D&D's 4th edition core setting. I already listed several of the things in 4th edition that are from non-European sources in my first post in this thread.
but medieval Europe is?
Mediaeval Europe is not an appropriate fantasy setting either. And it's not a D&D setting. It might be the primary influence on several D&D settings, but that's not at all the same thing.
If "Mediaeval Europe" or "Asia" is your setting, then you're not playing a fantasy game.
Nobody has said it can't. The point is that a lot of it is already there and more can easily be added without the need for any new mechanics or sourcebooks.
The comment I made was my polite way of disagreeing with Axiomatic_Badger and his quote " "Asia" is not an appropriate fantasy setting."
I would like to ask how do you add more without new mechanics or sourcebooks?
Also I may be assuming too much here but I'm confident that people comprehend that "Mediaeval Europe" or "Asia" or not the actual settings we're discussing but simply a strong influence.
Splinters - For the record I understand what your saying so I'm unable to answer your question. To me all cultures have their own version of fantasy and I for one really like a lot of the ideas that come from the Asian continent.
OA needs an entire setting at this point. I am almost positive WotC does not have the license to print more Rokugan stuff (a shame in my opinion). Unless they are re-using Kara-Tur (and lord I hope that is not the case) I think OA 4e will take more time since they will have to go from scratch on a setting and do it without cultural stereotypes.
Tzarevitch
The comment I made was my polite way of disagreeing with Axiomatic_Badger and his quote " "Asia" is not an appropriate fantasy setting."
And my reply was my polite way of suggesting you might have misinterpreted his statement.
I would like to ask how do you add more without new mechanics or sourcebooks?
I'm going to be slightly rude and answer your question with a question. :P What, at the moment, is actually stopping you from creating an 'Asian'-themed D&D campaign?
I'm currently running a strongly Persian-flavoured campaign. I didn't need any sourcebooks beyond the 4th edition core rulebooks, the FRPG for the genasi and swordmage, and the Draconomicon for sand dragons. I've added a new playable race of my own devising and several unique monsters. I didn't need a WotC sourcebook containing a ready-made pseudo-Middle-Eastern setting. I also didn't need to add any new classes, since the existing classes are quite flexible enough to cover virtually any concept. The only class I was really missing was the bard, and PHB2 solved that, albeit too late for any of my group to actually play one.
Sourcebooks can be a good source of ideas and can save you some work on world-building, but they're not at all necessary to run a campaign in a non-European setting.
Of course I might be biased since, for me, world-building is the most enjoyable part of DMing. I'd never actually use a ready-made setting even if a suitably Persian-flavoured one did exist in a sourcebook somewhere.
There's nothing wrong with oriental tropes in dnd. Even in PoL, we have a plethora of monsters with asian roots and an ancient empire who's members devote thier lives to honour, ruled by a being of divine ancestry.
And that's just off the top of my head.
In eberron we have a culture based on absolute obediance and submergance of the self, with social position based on a divine beaurocracy-like system.
We also have yet another ancient empire with a defined caste system big on honour in the goblinoid Dhakaani Empire.
The problems occur when a campaign's oriental-ness is it's defining feature.
When compared with "A world formed from the corpses of three great dragons, inhabited by sentient golems and nightmare-possessed mortals" or "A dying world, where endless deserts quake under the life-devouring powers of the sorcerer-kings", "Feudal China" just doesn't cut the mustard.
Personally, I'm hoping the next setting will be something completely new. Maybe a world devolving into a mass of chaotic energy, with a few pieces of land being preserved by the efforts of psionic mages, each piece of land having a small cabal devoted to keeping it stable.
That, or a world being invaded/devoured by the Outside.
The problems occur when a campaign's oriental-ness is it's defining feature.
When compared with "A world formed from the corpses of three great dragons, inhabited by sentient golems and nightmare-possessed mortals" or "A dying world, where endless deserts quake under the life-devouring powers of the sorcerer-kings", "Feudal China" just doesn't cut the mustard.
I think most of us agree with this. I will say that most of us who want an oriental setting are not asking for a book of sterotypes and pictures. What we want when we say we want an oriental or arabian nights style campaign setting, is a new, original setting and mythos that is heavily flavored with historical and mythical asia or arabia.
Eberron is a delightful setting that, during the course of its design, could easily have been boiled down to a steampunk stereotype. I just want an OA or AN setting that, like Eberron, has not been whittled down to a world of only oriental or arabian flavor.
Four of these planes of existence are actually divided between the four castes of feudal Japan: nobility (heaven), samurai (asuras), heimin or Commoners (human), hinin/eta (hungry ghost). While the other two: animal means reincarnating into a Hengeyokai, hell: the only metaphysical other realm of existence as a burning hell kind of place. Ressurection and raise dead type magic doesn't work. Reincarnation is hard-wired into society. When you die, your soul moves elsewhere in the Sorrowful World.
Using a mechanic called Karma measured in both positive and negative points, based on lawful (positive) and chaotic (negative) acts in life. With enough positive points one's soul moves from one caste to the next one up, negative points downward, or break even in same caste, but different body.
Rather than simply rolling up a new character in the "next life" which you still have to do. Your previous life's memory becomes lost. However your former companions can use sorcery to find you, and possibly regain your old memories, thus you are now multi-class and advance in your new life/career, but can access skills and powers of the previous.
Though this is "weird", it actually creates a power gamer's mechanic in that you don't really die, you just "change clothes" and take on a player class in perpetude.
Because the nobility is quite aware of the possibility of dying and going to one of the lower castes, many have opted for conversion to undead status, so they escape the reincarnation cycle and stay on top. Thus undead comprise the Imperial Court and the Provincial rulers of the setting.
Other than that, its the usual: samurai, yamabushi (shukenja), monk, sohei, ninja, and yakuza (rogues) classes. I've added an evil sorcery type called an Onmyodo (pro imperial court) and monster-fighting sorcerery called Jugondo (anti imperial court), and removed Wujen and Shaman as per Rokugan OA setting.
Geographically its a land of large and many small islands, more like Japan than the land-locked "china-esque" Rokugan world. Its definitely more Japan like than a more general Asia kind of setting.
On an aside, I never cared for either Kara-Tur or Rokugan - bleh.
Its still early in development, though I am working on a 3 adventure arc that utilizes "western europe" styled standard D&D classed characters to explore and possibility become entrapped there, when PC death occurs. So players can become familiar with this unique setting and its special rules.
I'll either convert appropriate OA classes, or alter the existing ones to fit my settings needs.
GP