As both a DM and player I'd like to see the oriental classes return soon. Glimpses of the monk class through Githzerai and Dark Moon monks isn't enough to throw at my PCs.
Thank goodness I've fallen in love with the Warlord class. I guess my Dragonborn Inspiring Warlord will have to tide me over until the Monk returns.
But Oriental Adventures? I doubt whether they'll do it as a fully fledged campaign setting, or even as a specific place (Kara-Tur, Rokugan). What they may do is release a book showing DMs how to run an Oriental-themed campaign.
1). The first Converting Your Character article has rules for making a monk out of a ranger.
2). A homebrew class. There are plenty floating around.
Yes, that's right, I'm a monk hater. I'm even more ticked now that Ki is now "soul energy", as that pretty much nixes any hope for incarnum 4th ed. And no, I don't like anime or manga either. Big fan of Chinese and other East Asian history, but please keep it out of my Tolkien knock-offs.
I wish they'd stop calling that class the monk and use a term appropriate to the cultures from which that particular style of asceticism comes.
What would you prefer the class be called?
I wish they'd stop calling that class the monk and use a term appropriate to the cultures from which that particular style of asceticism comes. It makes it impossible to do western monks in sourcebooks, as every "monk" must be a master of the martial arts, something which does not fit with the western medieval core of, let's face it, all of WotC's major settings.
I don't mind the name change, but can the D&D community mostly consist of Westerners can pronounce the original Asian term?
Many can't even spell "SAMURAI" (e.g., I have seen "samauri, samuria," etc. on this board alone).
Perhaps, "monk" is a simple enough term, not owned by euros.
I think D&D is trying to break out of Euro-only mode (more power to it!); as for incarnum, were they merging 3e barbarian and totemist in 4e? Where'd I see that? I predict the monk/whatever will be in PHB3, along with, say, ninja/shinobi.
I wish they'd stop calling that class the monk and use a term appropriate to the cultures from which that particular style of asceticism comes. It makes it impossible to do western monks in sourcebooks, as every "monk" must be a master of the martial arts, something which does not fit with the western medieval core of, let's face it, all of WotC's major settings.
Yes, that's right, I'm a monk hater. I'm even more ticked now that Ki is now "soul energy", as that pretty much nixes any hope for incarnum 4th ed. And no, I don't like anime or manga either. Big fan of Chinese and other East Asian history, but please keep it out of my Tolkien knock-offs.
Why would Ki not preclude Incarnum? Why can't it have both? Its not like it's not. Also I think that the monks that DnD based on believed in perfect of mind, body, and spirit, while Monks in western term I think are better portrayed through clerics, wizards, and other classes more dedicated to book knowledge, religious practice, and science. Also, Tolkien had men of the east in his books... and since he never really wrote about them, other than hordes of them dying to the obviously righteous heroes, they very well could have been monks.
At least barbarian ("uncultured foreigner") looks to be named (hopefully) "Berzerker" in 4e.
Considering they have refered to the barbarian, not the berserker, being in the PHBII, it is not being renamed.
You can count on the monk, and probably several of the 'oriental' classes.
But Oriental Adventures? I doubt whether they'll do it as a fully fledged campaign setting, or even as a specific place (Kara-Tur, Rokugan). What they may do is release a book showing DMs how to run an Oriental-themed campaign.
Hi Nautilus! I actually think the opposite (I think :crazy
. Designing specific places & worlds seems like The Plan exactly. I'm recalling, for instance, how the devs discussed core worlds needing at least some specifics fleshed out in order to be both playable and malleable. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071029) The "How to Make a Campaign Like X" deal seems to be folded into their reconception of campaign & player's guides in 4e. DMs are specifically encouraged to draw material from any campaign guide.I guess another way of saying this is, I think that the book "showing DMs how to run an Oriental(Asian :twitch
-themed campaign" will actually be a 4e campaign guide. That seems to be what campaign guides are for! Of course, that's "if" the devs decide to give us a guidebook for that topic, which I think they should and will. I think D&D is trying to break out of Euro-only mode (more power to it!); as for incarnum, were they merging 3e barbarian and totemist in 4e? Where'd I see that? I predict the monk/whatever will be in PHB3, along with, say, ninja/shinobi.
Riiight. I'll believe that statement when they drop the elf (originated from European folklore) out of the standard race option.
It appears upon further inspection that the Buddhist term for a monk is "Bhikkhu" or "Bhiksu". That would not be that hard.
:evillaugh
It's "samuria" all over again.
:evillaugh
It's "samuria" all over again.
The difference is that there isn't a lot of difference between a samurai and a fighter, certainly not enough to require a separate base class, while western monks and shaolin fighting masters are drastically different in terms of what mechanics would best describe their legendary abilities. Certainly, both can be described as devout individuals living lives under a set of rules theoretically (although clearly not often in the case of PCs) apart from the rest of society in their own groups. But that is all background. You could make that the background of any character class. I'd rather see it remain a background term.
While we're at it, I'd love to see the barbarian become the berserker and the warlord go back to being the marshal (that's purely an aesthetic thing though). Not that any of this will ever happen. Some sacred cows do not become sacred steak. Although the magic user did become the wizard, and the thief the rogue, so you never know.
Riiight. I'll believe that statement when they drop the elf (originated from European folklore) out of the standard race option.
While that would indeed make me happy, he did say 'out of Euro-Only mode', not dropping all the Euro stuff.
While they (WotC) renamed classes that went through significant tweaks (such as the Marshal to Warlord), they won't change "staple" names like Fighter, Cleric, Rogue and Wizard (the big four are the most obvious examples). Obviously the Monk class hasn't been around as long (what year was it when the came up with the 16 Level Progression Monk?) but changing the name would just confuse long-time fans/players.
Here's a new question: If they come out with the Monk in a book like Forgotten Realms Player Guide with only one 'new class' (the Swordsage) would you buy it?
Here's another suggestion to WotC: They're coming out with "Martial Power" and "Arcane Power", right? (Don't know if they will have "Divine Power")
Why not give us a "Ki Power" book? Not only can you have some 'new' Ki-powered classes in it (such as the monk) but you could also include new class builds for existing classes, using Ki as a variant power source... think about it:
Ki Fighter - Samurai
Ki Rogue - Ninja
Sigh.... anyway we look at it, we're ages away from an official 4E monk, unless it pops up in Dragon Magazine.
The difference is that there isn't a lot of difference between a samurai and a fighter...
Actually I wasn't referring to the classes. I'm referring to the names.
If you think many non-Asian gamers are going to misspell "Samurai," they are definitely going to misspell "Bhiksu" (a suggested replacement name for the current monk class).
Then again, many English-proficient gamers are already having a hard time spelling "rogue." :evillaugh
I think if they do update the Monk to 4E (which I hope they do soon), they won't rename the class.
While they (WotC) renamed classes that went through significant tweaks (such as the Marshal to Warlord), they won't change "staple" names like Fighter, Cleric, Rogue and Wizard (the big four are the most obvious examples). Obviously the Monk class hasn't been around as long (what year was it when the came up with the 16 Level Progression Monk?) but changing the name would just confuse long-time fans/players.
I think you're right, about the rename, I'm just venting frustration (which is half of what these message boards are for, at least). Actually, though, the rogue is a re-name, as I pointed out. It was the thief until 2001 with 3rd ed (and he couldn't be Lawful Good). Same with the wizard, who used to be the mage. Actually, the core ones get changed the most. Monk wasn't a core class at all in 2nd ed, at least not the books I had. They never even made a complete book for him, although ninjas did get one.
There you go, just drop the monk for the ninja. I'd be just fine with that ;)
Not serious guys. Just playing around.
Aside from the suggested Ranger conversion to make a 4E Monk, which just seems to say "Look at me, I'm another Ranger", I would prefer something that really jumps out at me, shouting "Look at me, I'm a monk, look at all my nifty powers!"
I'm thinking of starting a thread where we can post what we think a monk should be built like in 4E, including feats and powers, etc. These boards are the best place to bounce ideads off of.
Actually, though, the rogue is a re-name, as I pointed out. It was the thief until 2001 with 3rd ed
It actually happened in1989, when 2nd Ed came out, the Thief was renamed the Rogue.
It actually happened in1989, when 2nd Ed came out, the Thief was renamed the Rogue.
Rogue was an overarching term that included thieves and bards, just like warrior for rangers, fighters and paladins, wizard for magi (mages?) and the various specialists and priests for clerics, druids, and specialty priests. But the class itself was the thief. That's why their complete book was the complete thief's handbook.
And there were no monks or half orcs in the PHB, and barbarians were introduced in a complete book and didn't rage. it was a time of darkness, and dinosaurs ruled the earth.
Rogue was an overarching term that included thieves and bards, just like warrior for rangers, fighters and paladins, wizard for magi (mages?) and the various specialists and priests for clerics, druids, and specialty priests.
I concur because I still have my 2e Player's Handbook. And it is mage, which is much better word for 1e's magic-user.
-Rogue was an overarching term that included thieves and bards,
-And there were no monks in the PHB
-Oh yeah, you're right, I pulled out my 2nd Ed PHB last night.
-True, but they did release a full 2nd Ed Monk and Assassin class in the latter TSR days product The Scarlett Brotherhood.
-Oh yeah, you're right, I pulled out my 2nd Ed PHB last night.
-True, but they did release a full 2nd Ed Monk and Assassin class in the latter TSR days product The Scarlett Brotherhood.
Which is interesting, because, if I'm not mistaken, that's a Greyhawk supplement. I'll have to check that out. I would have expected it to be in the Oriental Adventures boxed set about Kara Tur.
Which is interesting, because, if I'm not mistaken, that's a Greyhawk supplement. I'll have to check that out. I would have expected it to be in the Oriental Adventures boxed set about Kara Tur.
The Kara-Tur boxed set came out way before 2e was published. It was developed for use with 1e OA.
Which is interesting, because, if I'm not mistaken, that's a Greyhawk supplement. I'll have to check that out. I would have expected it to be in the Oriental Adventures boxed set about Kara Tur.
There was virtually no crunch in the Kara-Tur boxed set. But, yeah, the 2nd Assassin and Monk were in the Greyhawk accessory The Scarlett Brotherhood, very soon before TSR went belly.
The Scarlet Brotherhood (SB) is a Greyhawk organization of suel (human subrace) supremecists who wanted to secretly control the world. Monks were among their big guns in 1E, and the base class had a distinctly oriental flavor to their fighting, though it was reimaged for the SB (some).
Monks will likely see print in the PHB that accompanies Ebberon, since the class is a huge part of the main parts of the setting (the Kalashtar, several goblin tribes, and some groups in the Eldeen Reaches, and lets not go into the Church of the Silver Flame). I forsee it losing the alignment restiction, being a ki striker, heavy on movement based powers (kinda like a melee based feylock, only without teleport).
As for Oriental Adventures, it depends. If you're looking for rokugan, you'd best start your home conversions, cause that's about the only place you'll see it. As for Kara-Tur I could easily see an article or three in Dragon, as an addendum for Forgotten Realms (since it is a part of the Forgotten Realms - just geographically distant). I seriously doubt we'll see a true campaign guide. My suggestion is get ahold of the OLD 1E Oriental Adventures, ignore the rules stuff, and go to town with the setting info. Its vague, and written in the same style as 4E, wide open setting, lots of adventure hooks, very little set in stone aside from its past.
As for its classes, its simple. Fighters with noble title are Samurai. Fighters that are not nobles are Bushi. The main difference is the Samurai is trained in two weapon fighting, something the Bushi is not trained in (use the recently posted [in dragon] two weapon fighting options). Ninjas are rogues, wujen are wizards, shugenja are something wierd, and priests are clerics. Warlords could also be Samurai, or simple Bushi who keep their fellow soldiers alive. In fact Samurai might just be a feat or background option that anyone could take, but it comes with severe roleplaying hooks - including the responsibility to dispense judgement. Just make sure your players understand the concepts of honor and what it means. I don't mean long treatises on bushido, but rather a simple bullet pointed list of things that are and are not acceptable. I think (can't remember) such a list exists in the 1E OA book, if not there is a usable version in the 3E stuff.
Monk was in 1E Player's Handbook, taken out for second
But added back in with the 2nd Ed Scarlett Brotherhood accessory.
Monks will likely see print in the PHB that accompanies Ebberon, since the class is a huge part of the main parts of the setting (the Kalashtar, several goblin tribes, and some groups in the Eldeen Reaches, and lets not go into the Church of the Silver Flame).
That would be a no as Eberron comes out next year, and next year's PHBII is Arcane, Divine, and Primal classes.
That would be a no as Eberron comes out next year, and next year's PHBII is Arcane, Divine, and Primal classes.
As the PHB II is coming out 9 months after the PHB I, do you think there might be a chance we see the PHB III in December 2009?
I totally agree with you on the monk/Eberron thing.
As the PHB II is coming out 9 months after the PHB I, do you think there might be a chance we see the PHB III in December 2009?
I totally agree with you on the monk/Eberron thing.
Well they have said that they want to release a PHB a year, so I would think that it is extremely unlikely that they would release PHBIII in 2009 also. I think that in 2009 they are just organizing their release schedule to what they want it to be yearly as opposed to 2008 where they had a little over half a year to spread out the releases like they wanted to.
I think that in 2009 they are just organizing their release schedule to what they want it to be yearly as opposed to 2008 where they had a little over half a year to spread out the releases like they wanted to.
Yeah, they'll probably go with a, dare I say it, Magic: the Gathering block type model.
So, a new PHB every March?
If you think many non-Asian gamers are going to misspell "Samurai," they are definitely going to misspell "Bhiksu" (a suggested replacement name for the current monk class).
Then again, many English-proficient gamers are already having a hard time spelling "rogue." :evillaugh
Well, they didn't die on Shadar-Kai, Sahuagin, Acherai, and Ixil...Ixilzatch...uh...
and various Eberron names (all of which are made-up). Cakewalk tho' it is, Bhiksu (Buddhist monk) still doesn't = Blackbelt, I think. 
-Joni
Plus, do we really want a mob of slightly annoyed Buddhist monks in front of the WOTC headquarters?
Actually, I was hoping David Carradine would go there and set them straight. :evillaugh
Never been a fan myself but they do need to be reintroduced.
But I always saw them as quiet archivists... are you sure that they are not just western-style cloistered monks/clerics?
There was Monk-classed er.. Monks? Really? Dang! Would have played one!!
But I always saw them as quiet archivists... are you sure that they are not just western-style cloistered monks/clerics?
Even in AD&D they had a martial element. 3.5 game book and novels takes it all the to the monk class.
Let's not forget the monks of Majere in DL.
Don't forget a monk of Oghma in FR, Dannica (sp?).
Don't forget a monk of Oghma in FR, Dannica (sp?).
Also speaking FR the Shadowwalkers (Monks of Mask) but as I stated before there are various sects of monks in FR more so then any other setting that I can think of including OA and Rokugan
That is my list of demands.
Also speaking FR the Shadowwalkers (Monks of Mask) but as I stated before there are various sects of monks in FR more so then any other setting that I can think of including OA and Rokugan
So, is "monk" the catchall archetypal class name of one who has taken an ascetic path of bringing one's body, soul/spirit, and mind in harmony, or is that something the European owns? ("Friar Tuck of Robin Hood's Merry Men is a monk! Not Kwai Chang Caine!")
So, is "monk" the catchall archetypal class name of one who has taken an ascetic path of bringing one's body, soul/spirit, and mind in harmony, or is that something the European owns? ("Friar Tuck of Robin Hood's Merry Men is a monk! Not Kwai Chang Caine!")
In the American English language Monk has been used as a catchall for quite some time and the term has been used for various forms of martial artists and also for the traditional European Monk which they did include there own form of martial training just it was not the same as that which we link to there Asian counterparts so in all reality if or when they do bring the monk out it is up to the players and the DMs to add what flavor to the monk of (whatever) sect to make it Asian, European, or something else.
Ki does not become a catchall "Asian" power source
Yep, while I have no problem with the Ki power source, now that it is simply the power source of the soul, so it can encompass things such as Incarnum and other "soul" concepts, and it has been separated from a purely Asian/Oriental thing at last (thank god), I do not want it to be a catch all power source for any class with an Asian/Oriental title.
And yes, those are Chinese Buddhist Monks. The Shaolin, are only one sect among them, but are probably the most famous Chinese sect. Most sects don't practice kung-fu.
And I'm really glad they aren't making "ki" the catch-all power source for all Asian-themed classes.
And I personally think that classes like Fighter and Warlord and Wizard also make good Asian-themed classes. A movie such as the film Warlords featuring Jet Li, Andy Lau and Takeshi Kaneshiro, does a decent job at demonstrating what's a Fighter and what's a Warlord, no wire-work through out that entire movie and no need for any mystified Asian-theme classes at all. And if you're going to discount that movie because it takes place during the 1860's there's always John Woo's new film Red Cliff which is based on Romance of the 3 Kingdoms, that's a similar more grounded in reality war film.
In the American English language Monk has been used as a catchall for quite some time and the term has been used for various forms of martial artists and also for the traditional European Monk which they did include there own form of martial training just it was not the same as that which we link to there Asian counterparts so in all reality if or when they do bring the monk out it is up to the players and the DMs to add what flavor to the monk of (whatever) sect to make it Asian, European, or something else.
So, should we keep the monk class generic but offer few universal (or vanilla) class features (available to all monk archetypes) but offer more custom (or toppings) features (options to build a specific monk archetype of the player's choice)?
No, but I support the inclusion of a martial artist class, however I do agree that Monk is a poor term choice.
Frankly, I like to use Monk for a Studious less martial Cleric variant. I always think of Benedictines...
So, replacement name options for the "Monk" class.
Shao-Lin
Boxer (As in the 'Boxer Rebellion', go read history)
Master
Martial Artist (Doesn't flow well...)
Jackie Chan (I'm a 10th level Jackie Chan)
Edit: It just occurred to me that Jackie Chan would be an awesome class. Because it would be perfectly acceptable for a 1st level Jackie Chan to do things like Jump 10 squares across the field, leg sweep all enemies in a Burst 3, and jump back to his starting square... I think I've found my new template for a Martial Controller :P
there are no elemental-magic shugenja,
Why not? isn't the esoteric magic of them based on an elemental theory, or I am wrong?
Why not? isn't the esoteric magic of them based on an elemental theory, or I am wrong?
You're thinking of Onmyoji and their Daoist roots, which is represented decently enough by the Wu-Jen class. Real shugendo would be a bit closer to the 3e Shaman class. What we saw in 3e OA was the d20 version of a class that was given a completely inappropriate and unrelated name, which was named so based only on the fact the writers of L5R couldn't find any other Japanese terms for a divine caster.
The Shaman, though, is interestingly enough closer to a new version of the 1st ed OA "Shugenka" class.
Funny, that. :P
Frankly, I like to use Monk for a Studious less martial Cleric variant. I always think of Benedictines...
Nope. Never thought of Benedictines until later in life. I have the luxury of living further west than California.
You're gonna have to take your complaint to Gygax (a Kung Fu fan, so I've heard) who thought up the class back in 1e Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. (Which was back then hard to run it, so it was class hardly chosen by players).
So, should we keep the monk class generic but offer few universal (or vanilla) class features (available to all monk archetypes) but offer more custom (or toppings) features (options to build a specific monk archetype of the player's choice)?
If the developers can work something like that into the 4e system that would be good but if people want to have all of the different styles of 'Monk' to be completely different then well with the way there doing the books right now or heck even the way the books were done in the past that would take a series of books to complete. If people would rather the term 'Monk' be dropped we I am sure if we worked together and came up with a few viable options and not flame anyone or there thoughts on the process then hell lets do that and make it an official suggestion. As a catchall name I do like Martial Artist more then Monk myself
So, should we keep the monk class generic but offer few universal (or vanilla) class features (available to all monk archetypes) but offer more custom (or toppings) features (options to build a specific monk archetype of the player's choice)?
Well of course – like every other 4th Ed class, you would have build options and paragon paths etc.
So, replacement name options for the "Monk" class.
For some reason I like the term Monk for the class, it must go back to my nostalgia for the 1st Ed monk – love my Grand Master of Flowers and all of that.
Seriously, though, as a general term for a class that harnesses the Soul (Ki) to pull of its unarmed bad-assness it's just dandy with me.
The Shaman, though, is interestingly enough closer to a new version of the 1st ed OA "Shugenka" class.
Totally, the 3rd Ed OA Shaman was much more similar to the 1st Ed Shukenga/Dang Ki, than the 3rd Ed Shugenja.
On a related note... Interestingly, I am told that there is 'kung-fu' 'monks' (and 'nuns') on the Taoist side of things in China (the famous Wu-Tang thing?). Just sayin'.
Why not? isn't the esoteric magic of them based on an elemental theory, or I am wrong?
The Wudan (aka Wu-Tang) is one example of a Taoist martial arts tradition. Other more esoteric Taoist traditions also include Alchemy and other forms of mysticism. That includes five elements.
Here's some quick points some useful some useless:
1) Alternate suggested names for a Monk:
Ass-kicker
Beatdown Expert
2) Warblade as a defender and Swordsage as a controller (okay maybe with a different name like Bladedancer to not confuse with Swordmage) and Incarnate as a leader should be brought back as Ki classes, because they're culturally neutral with their D&D intro. More groups might use these classes otherwise.
3) There needs to be more stance powers. That was something I felt ToB: Bo9S had that was really good.
4) Most weapons have their equivalents already in the PHB, unless it's something really different like the knife-dart (1d4 damage lightblade/flail), 3-piece rod, tiger-hook swords or monk's spade.
5) Like it or not, if there's an OA book that comes out after whichever PHB that has the classes. It will have to address Elves, Eladrin, Dwarves, Halflings, Dragonborn, and Tieflings being in the setting.
As a catchall name I do like Martial Artist more then Monk myself.
Meh. A martial artist is one who use the Fighter class and take unarmed combat powers, if there are any.
A monk is more than just a "commercial studio" martial artist. He has taken an ascetic lifepath. Ascetism should be emphasized, be it a Western (Euro) or Eastern monk.
Meh. A martial artist is one who use the Fighter class and take unarmed combat powers, if there are any.
Technically speaking, martial arts are the "arts of Mars" which refers to any form of battle as Mars was a god of war. As such most of the classes with potential exceptions for the pure casters are technically martial artists. That use of the term has just fallen into disuse because not too many people practice figthing techniques outside of unarmed fighting anymore.
Point 5 is kinda relating to a certain restricting tendance to make 'non-european, non-medieval era' settings more... historic, 'as it was'. But then, why not go more for the spirit than the letter, and try to make something more fantastic than historic-based?
Not historic, cultural. You still need a point of reference, something we Earth-bound players can relate to.
If you want to go with martial artist, go for it, even though I think that archetype can be covered under the Fighter class. After all, a fighter shouldn't be restricted to using physical manufactured weapons. They should also use their bodies.
Besides, is ascetism only Earth-based? Can ascetism exist in fantasy worlds?
Technically speaking, martial arts are the "arts of Mars" which refers to any form of battle as Mars was a god of war. As such most of the classes with potential exceptions for the pure casters are technically martial artists. That use of the term has just fallen into disuse because not too many people practice figthing techniques outside of unarmed fighting anymore.
You only strengthen my argument that the martial artist archetype is still the Fighter class.
I know that that the modern usage of MA commonly associated with unarmed combat. But even a swordsman or a pikeman can be a martial artist, too.
So, why not make sure the Fighter have the option of using armed or unarmed combat talent/prowess via Powers?
Eladrins for me have a certain appeal there... Spirit beings in flesh, amoral and alien; they could be reflavored as Spirit Folks, or maybe as a 'new' race called Youkai or something.
Dragonborns, well... not much changes. More asian dragons-looking, perhaps.
tieflings maybe a new race called AKuma, or maybe as a player race form of Oni. No tails for both, redraw, but possible match.
Orcs maybe Oni also (like Shadowrun did, with some cosmetic changes), or Hobgoblins for that is a third option. Goblinoids as 'Bakemono' of OA?
Dwarves (or maybe more fitting there, Halflings) as those Kororiboro(?), the much haired and leaner dwarves of there.
The Kenku as Tengu (are they in MM1?).
Not historic, cultural. You still need a point of reference, something we Earth-bound players can relate to.
Snip
Besides, is ascetism only Earth-based? Can ascetism exist in fantasy worlds?
Yes, but the point is a tendance of 'purism' - 'but ninja weren't like this - if they existed at all', and so on. I means, perhaps a more original yet still 'asian' feel, remixing cultures, changing stuff, adding, etc... Reweaving that, being creative.
Well, yes to a point - there was things trying to do that like that Vow of Poverty, the trend of armorless clerics, etc...
Remark; Psionic power source is very fitting, especialy for a more 'indian' side. And a certain ascetist monastic link.
Nope. Never thought of Benedictines until later in life. I have the luxury of living further west than California.
You're gonna have to take your complaint to Gygax (a Kung Fu fan, so I've heard) who thought up the class back in 1e Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. (Which was back then hard to run it, so it was class hardly chosen by players).
Damn, well, let me go get my Necromancer so I can complain... :P
(Was that in bad taste?)
Anywho, don't get me wrong, I love the Shao-Lin style head busters, I just wish they were called something else. A permanent side effect of calling the class Monks is that any group of religious contemplatives living in a secluded commune in a D&D game are now automatically Zen Masters who preform death defying leaps as a matter of coarse and are able to punch through foot thick stone walls in one go...
I want my Benedictines and Franciscans tending gardens, copying books, and distilling high quality liquors, not meditating under waterfalls, raking sand into patterns, and punching rope wrapped logs.
The force of impetus in the setting basically precludes the existence of Non-Warrior Monks.
And also, you seems to miss the point that an in game term =/= out of game term. Both can be monks, and a monk can be.. not clased monk.
Not all martial artists are monks. Not all Monks are martial artists. Almost NO western monks are martial artists, and certainly no Catholic order that I know of practices combat forms as a spiritual system. Indeed, even most Eastern monks, Buddist, Taoist, or Hindu, don't practice a combat system. The meditative/excercise Tai Chi Chuan practiced by most of them today is not even remotely the same as the Tai Chi Chuan practiced by Martial Artists who plan to use it in competition/combat.
My opinion is that the use of the name Monk for the martial artist class creates unnecessary connections (All martial artists are Religious contemplatives, all Religious Contemplatives practice the art of unarmed combat), and forces a certain flavor into all campaigns, whether you want it or not.
My opinion is that the martial artist class should have a different name, one which doesn't have those connotation, and one which is distinct from other terms that could cause confusion.
Your opinion is obviously that the name is fine as it is, and I respect that. I simply don't agree.
Also, Monk is an English word, from a Latin root (Monacus - Religious Hermit).
A Buddhist "monk" is a Bhikkhu, a Hindu one a sanyāsī, sādhu, or swāmi.
(Also, note... occident didn't have such monks, yet... if history took different paths... Like if buddhist missionaries came to the Koine world, maybe... Or if Mitraism have won, maybe... Who know?
Which bring one thing; D&D's worlds are not ours. They took different paths - and they are not Europe, Asia, etc.)
All in all, for me, chat blanc, blanc chat, and it's cutting hairs finely, Don't worry too much, and if you wish so, use other words.
My opinion is that the use of the name Monk for the martial artist class creates unnecessary connections (All martial artists are Religious contemplatives, all Religious Contemplatives practice the art of unarmed combat), and forces a certain flavor into all campaigns, whether you want it or not.
My opinion is that the martial artist class should have a different name, one which doesn't have those connotation, and one which is distinct from other terms that could cause confusion.
'Monk' is connected to alot of WotC/TSR Intellectual Property, they aren't going to abandon using a class called 'Monk' ever. There's already the aforementioned Scarlet Brotherhood, the Githzerai, the Dark Moon Monks of Shar, the Kalashtar and more.
History classes: Historically, the Rogue or Monk can do for a ninja just as a Fighter, Warlord, or Cleric can do for a European knight instead of Paladin (D&D's archetypal "Knight" class, I thought) . Similar to Tokugawa samurai (who sometimes had paperwork jobs), some religious-military knight orders had priests or paperworkers in addition to mounted combat units. A separate ninja class would deal more closely with the archetypal powers attributed them specifically as long as they are culturally close to the source (Ex: ninjas don't all eat pizza or shout surfer slang, but may appear to teleport short, unblocked distances or duplicate themselves). Just what I see now.
The Druid is a similar case, being a more culturally specific than many D&D classes and also concealed to history. You could probably play one with a Cleric, but some of their signature traits wouldn't be found save in the Druid class, but I know more about ninjas than druids...
Almost NO western monks are martial artists, and certainly no Catholic order that I know of practices combat forms as a spiritual system.
There's the order of the Knight-Templars. While they didn't exactly focus on unarmed combat, they certainly practiced combat arts, but generally they're more like 'Paladins' or 'Fighters' rather than D&D 'Monks'.
My opinion is that the use of the name Monk for the martial artist class creates unnecessary connections (All martial artists are Religious contemplatives, all Religious Contemplatives practice the art of unarmed combat), and forces a certain flavor into all campaigns, whether you want it or not.
My opinion is that the martial artist class should have a different name, one which doesn't have those connotation, and one which is distinct from other terms that could cause confusion.
'Monk' is connected to alot of WotC/TSR Intellectual Property, they aren't going to abandon using a class called 'Monk' ever. There's already the aforementioned Scarlet Brotherhood, the Githzerai, the Dark Moon Monks of Shar, the Kalashtar and more.
If I want to run a game with a monestary of religious non-fighting monks, or write a story with such in it, in a D&D setting, I simply can't without encountering bizzare opposition, because the expectation and connotation of those words is so set by the class.
And this is why the residents of Candlekeep in FR are called monks right? even the wizards and priests that live there.
The point isn't that you can't use monk because it has been used outside of the class in novel and lore for a few settings including the aforementioned Candlekeep and as well as the Library of Planthus(sp) of DL next to none of the residents of either of those two structures/organizations are monks as per the class but are called monks none the less.
The Druid is a similar case, being a more culturally specific than many D&D classes and also concealed to history. You could probably play one with a Cleric, but some of their signature traits wouldn't be found save in the Druid class, but I know more about ninjas than druids...
Something I have a little bit more study into seeing as what knowledge of my families more ancient history has been passed seems to include at least one druid. The way DnD has portrayed Druids is quite far from what little is know about them, They were the spiritual leaders in a sense to Celtics in much the same way priests are today but they were more then that, they were lore keepers, bards, judges, and council to the leaders of clan holds and to the kings if they existed(such as the 5 king system of Ireland). They practiced rituals that were tied to nature and the Fae kingdom but they were not as many have put it 'tree-huggers' for they kept more to the civilization of the time and guided it as best they could without holding the true power of decision. The concept of Eye for and Eye actually comes from the form of Law they practiced which is a law of balance, say you murdered someones mother and are found guilty, that person would then without guilt be allowed to kill your mother. I digress, the point of using Monk it much the same as there use of Druid it is the closet term in the English language with a fantasy feel to it that fits the role of the classes that they have built, Monk for the Asian Martial Artist(which it is my understanding more of which lived in monasteries) and Druid for Nature based caster. Now I am sure we could have an entire thread on how we like or dislike the names of classes and believe me I have a few, Druid, Barbarian, Bard, Ronin, and well there is a list that I just don't want to make since this is not the thread.
The way DnD has portrayed Druids is quite far from what little is know about them
As Spinal Tap said about them:
"No on knows who they were, or what they were doing…"
The point isn't that you can't use monk
There will be a class called Monk in 4th Ed.
You know, I would like to see instead of a more Japanese/Chinese oriented one. I would love to see one based more around India, there is just so much glorious mythology and culture there that could be used in such a book.
I would like to see a Yogi class, Psionic maybe?
:P
My apologies, just a joke, couldn't help myself.
YOGA FIRE!
:P
But, only after they get the power called 'Energy Blast'.
Anywho, don't get me wrong, I love the Shao-Lin style head busters, I just wish they were called something else. A permanent side effect of calling the class Monks is that any group of religious contemplatives living in a secluded commune in a D&D game are now automatically Zen Masters who preform death defying leaps as a matter of coarse and are able to punch through foot thick stone walls in one go...
I want my Benedictines and Franciscans tending gardens, copying books, and distilling high quality liquors, not meditating under waterfalls, raking sand into patterns, and punching rope wrapped logs.
The force of impetus in the setting basically precludes the existence of Non-Warrior Monks.
I get it. I want the MONK class to emphasize more on universal ascetism and less on martial arts (both armed and unarmed). That way you can customize...
If you want an Eastern-type monk like a Shaolin version, then you take martial arts powers.
If you want a Cloistered-type monk like a Buddhist or Benedictine version, then you take powers more closely associated to those groups.
If you follow the above for 4e ascetic monk, then it becomes more acceptable.
Agree or Disagree?
You know, I would like to see instead of a more Japanese/Chinese oriented one. I would love to see one based more around India, there is just so much glorious mythology and culture there that could be used in such a book.
In Podcast #8 here, about halfway, they discuss Oriental Adventures. A little over halfway, Rob Heinsoo seems to say that if OA were made, it would probably follow the ninja, etc. classes being released in a PHB. This may leave more room in OA itself to deal with the cultural, rather than class mechanical, aspects. More India, Korea, Thailand, etc. in addition to Japan and China? This is speculation.
This may leave more room in OA itself to deal with the cultural, rather than class mechanical, aspects. More India, Korea, Thailand, etc. in addition to Japan and China? This is speculation.
That is exactly what I would like, while I have always been a fan of Japanese culture, past OAs have leaned more towards Japan than any other Asian cultures, so I would prefer a more even spread (from Japan to India).
A few different gaming outlets use the term, "Monk".
Final Fantasy. (11 allows plays to be "Monks", as did another game)
Onimusha. (Nankobu Tenkai is a staff-wielding, spiritually empowered MONK, Ankokuji Ekei was a Monk)
The basis is that these characters follow lives of ascetism, but that they have a martial incline. DnD is not a namby-pamby game where your Franciscan-Benedictine Monk hybrid can debate the meaning of life in a monastary while his companions are getting chewed by by a ferocious Red Dragon eyeing him as desert.
The Okinawan Farmers turning the Kung Fu taught to them by Chinese sailors weren't thinking, "Yay! We're level 1 Monks now!" They were thinking, "We kick ass and take names!"
Samurai practicing and spreading Jujutsu weren't thinking of themselves as cloistered clerics.
So what truly unifies all Monks (meant for the world of DnD) is the properties of combat differing from those of knights, samurai, and barbarians, as well as uniformity.
Jujutsu requires uniformity, Karate requires uniformity, Kobudo requires uniformity... All armed and unarmed arts require immense study into technical and principle laws behind combat, but only unarmed arts are unanimously ineffective without the understanding of the technical laws and the principle details.
What is the closest English word we can grope for that embodies uniformity? Monks.
Budoka implies Japanese
Martial Artist is four syllables, two words, and is too long.
Master is too vague
So then we come back to the term 'Monk'. It is as good and viable now, as it was in Gygax's day.
Repeating prior notes:
If you want a cloistered sect of Monks of Io or whatnot, players would not immediately jump to the conclusion that they were ass-kicking martial artists if you did not describe them as such.
Do not lead the horse to water and then tell him not to drink. The Monk class represents an ascetic well-versed in martial combat because he is an ascetic. Roaming bands of Orcs and Monsters? A cloistered cleric would pee himself. A Monk would say, "Hmm."
As for other Oriental themed possible classes:
WotC will actually tell us to use our imagination.
Occidental classes will probably disappoint a lot of people.
People will get over it.
WotC may call Divine Controllers Shugenja in accordance with set precedence, Primal/Elemental/Ki/... Controllers Wu Jen.
Ninja may be Ki Strikers with some controller properties.
Samurai will be the biggest source of debate. Are we talking Edo Samurai? Sengoku Samurai? Heian Samurai? We don't know. Many people will clamor for Edo because of Rurouni Kenshin, Bleach, etc. Others will clamor for Sengoku, emulating the 3.5 Samurai.
Also, the debate of even having an Occidental spellcaster is up in the air.
A Wizard is an Onmyojin, is a Wu Jen... depending on the powers taken, and the description provided.
Anyway, just my 2cp
And there were no monks or half orcs in the PHB, and barbarians were introduced in a complete book and didn't rage. it was a time of darkness, and dinosaurs ruled the earth.
Ah, the good old days.... :D
I'd like to see Oriental Adventures or some sort of non-Western setting. A return to the Dark Sun or Legend of the Five Rings settings would be excellent, in my opinion.
Ah, the good old days.... :D
I'd like to see Oriental Adventures or some sort of non-Western setting. A return to the Dark Sun or Legend of the Five Rings settings would be excellent, in my opinion.
Nope. Not L5R.
I'm glad WotC sold the IP to AEG soon after OA was released, so they have nothing to do with it.
Nope. Not L5R.
I'm glad WotC sold the IP to AEG soon after OA was released, so they have nothing to do with it.
I thought that at that time, they didn't want to give that much support with more stuff.
They? Which one? AEG or WotC?
Between the two, I'd rather go with AEG for support of L5R/Rokugan. They've been doing it since they got the license from defunct Five Ring Publishing Group (then ran by Ryan Dancey).
While James Wyatt did a good job of incorporating primer material of Rokugan to OA rules, the setting was never definitively designed for OA. It's more of a d20 than a D&D/OA game, IMNSHO.
1) Movies make these classes look cool via intense choreography. With a good character concept and an amazing imagination, you could be able to envision your character of any class doing all the cool things you see in the movies. I do, however, want to see what specific powers WoTC will give the classes to help my less creative mind (fried by too many movies) envision that awesome choreography.
2) Martial arts (the Asian type, not the literal translation of war skills, although that's what martial arts were) embodied both ki-ai (spiritual control/projectioin) and ma-ai (distance/spatial control/projection). This first lead me to view most martial artists as either strikers who are highly mobile, or controllers who have AoE, but my brother pointed out that ma-ai would be important to a defender who has to hold the line.
3) The core books say that the D&D world is old, large, and explored. In our world there is only one species of human with many different races. Why can't each of the D&D species (called races in the books) have multiple races too? Why does a monk have to be a Shao Lin Buddhist? The white guy who works out in a run down theater in his free time had just as cool choreographed moves in "Bulletproof Monk."
4) Since the mantra of Kendo is "one swing, one kill" I always envisioned the samurai as a striker (and made one with the two weapon ranger build), but if it has to be a defender I'd like to see a couple options with it. An iaidoka build that gives it some aspects of controller. (Iaido is the art of drawing the sword and has all those cool sheathing and unsheathing moves and kata designed for confronting multiple enemies at once.) The other build could be more of the Shogun Bushido with aspects of a leader.
These are just some of my thoughts. This is my first post ever, so please don't flame me if you disagree. I liked this thread enough to create an account. I would like to discuss these thoughts more, but this post is probably too long anyway. Thanks