Coupled with earlier clues that:
the first letters would be Gn, G, D, H and S
second letters would be o, e, and h
last letter would be r
We now know that the following bolded letters aren't for the other races:
* Gnome
* Goliath
* Half-orc
Which means the following races are possible:
* Doppleganger
* Shifter, Shadar-kai
However these leave out the clue of the second letter being e. So what possible combinations could we get using that clue? There's Derro (which coupled with Shifter uses all of the letters), however that seems exceedingly unlikely. Perhaps we'll get a brand new race with She or De?
And I find the possibility of a Derro extremely unlikely. So it sounds like maybe we'll get Shifter and and a new "De" race.
So thanks to this we now know that 3 of the races are definitely half-orc, goliath and gnome. We'd already guessed gnome (because gnoll and gnu seemed unlikely) and goliath (thanks to the cover), but half-orc seems to be definitely new (and I had been fairly vocal in saying it wouldn't happen).
Coupled with earlier clues that:
the first letters would be Gn, G, D, H and S
second letters would be o, e, and h
last letter would be r
We now know that the following bolded letters aren't for the other races:
* Gnome
* Goliath
* Half-orc
Which means the following races are possible:
* Doppleganger
* Shifter, Shadar-kai
However these leave out the clue of the second letter being e. So what possible combinations could we get using that clue? There's Derro (which coupled with Shifter uses all of the letters), however that seems exceedingly unlikely. Perhaps we'll get a brand new race with She or De?
While half-orc is very likely, it may not be 100% official, or it may change.
I do think that we will get dopplegangers and shifters, they are relatively setting neutral, but along with gnomes and half-orcs are integral to Eberron, which is coming out in 2009 as well.
While half-orc is very likely, it may not be 100% official, or it may change.
I dunno, the WotC Spring Catalogue seems pretty darn official. I mean its possible the enworld people are completely lying I guess....
Also good pick up on She not fitting. So either we've got Se and Dh (both of which would require new races) or De and Sh (which neither technically require a new race, but the De probably is). I'm glad we'll finally be getting a new race (I was hoping for something new instead of just old content updated).
Although where could I find out some more about the 3.5e Goliaths?
I wouldn't be too sure about gnomes. Gnolls seem more likely to me -- not because it would be wise (I don't think it would be), but because gnolls have got more published support under their belt right now than gnomes do. That article on Yeenoghu, and the cool artwork, is what I mean. For gnomes we have one picture and a lot of fanboy outcry.
Good point about the existing Gnoll stuff, but maybe the fanboy outcry is enough to get Gnomes in.
Personally, I'd MUCH rather see Gnomes. In my opinion, they're a staple race.
Especially since the "I" class could very well be Illusionist! We can make gnome Illusionists again!
I wouldn't be too sure about gnomes. Gnolls seem more likely to me -- not because it would be wise (I don't think it would be), but because gnolls have got more published support under their belt right now than gnomes do. That article on Yeenoghu, and the cool artwork, is what I mean. For gnomes we have one picture and a lot of fanboy outcry.
I'm under the assumption this is a joke post. Why would WotC focus on a CE race of demon worshipers rather than a race that has been part of the circle of player races forever?
Bel
I'm pretty sure of Gnome, Goliath, Half-orc and Shifter which leaves only a De race for which I'm holding out for a celestial race.
Bel
Perhaps the race we'll see in the Manual of the Planes? I'd prefer not, but anything is possible.
Perhaps the race we'll see in the Manual of the Planes? I'd prefer not, but anything is possible.
I had quite forgotten about that, thanks JL!
Bel
I dunno, the WotC Spring Catalogue seems pretty darn official. I mean its possible the enworld people are completely lying I guess....
I didn't read the whole thing, only the first post which didn't mention the spring catalogue. However, I still stand by saying that it may not guarantee that half-orcs will be in. The cover of the players handbook changed before release, content can change as well.
Also good pick up on She not fitting. So either we've got Se and Dh (both of which would require new races) or De and Sh (which neither technically require a new race, but the De probably is). I'm glad we'll finally be getting a new race (I was hoping for something new instead of just old content updated).
Although where could I find out some more about the 3.5e Goliaths?
I don't know if it will be a completely new race, perhaps they have just renamed the aasimar to something else. Or, the information we've been given about races has changed. The powers that be may just be watching these forums and giggling.:P
I believe goliaths were found in races of stone.
> that has been part of the circle of player races forever?
I could see it from the standpoint that gnolls fit the primal source, particularly if they expand the race to incorporate some of the wilderness-oriented (and not necessarily evil) material from 3E.
Gnomes are also a possibility for the primal source, but then again, they would fit the shadow source too (especially since they still seem to have a fondness for illusions) - and that source is left for a later PHB, which would mean that the gnomes might get deferred to the same.
So while I still think that gnomes are more likely, it's not beyond imagining that we get gnolls in the PHB2 and gnomes in the PHB3+.
I'm under the assumption this is a joke post. Why would WotC focus on a CE race of demon worshipers rather than a race that has been part of the circle of player races forever?
Cause all ways following tradition is stupid and Gnoll>Gnomes.
Good point about the existing Gnoll stuff, but maybe the fanboy outcry is enough to get Gnomes in.
Personally, I'd MUCH rather see Gnomes. In my opinion, they're a staple race.
Especially since the "I" class could very well be Illusionist! We can make gnome Illusionists again!
I don't think the Illusionist since Arcane Power confirms the Arcane classes to be Sorcerer and Bard (plus swordmage from FR). My money is on the I being Inquisitor.
So while I still think that gnomes are more likely, it's not beyond imagining that we get gnolls in the PHB2 and gnomes in the PHB3+.
So being advertised as being in the book in a catalogue sent out by WotC is only enough to make Gnomes "more likely" and not a definite to you?
I know Shifters are more likely, but I'd really like to see some 4e support for Shadar-Kai..
I know quite a few people like the Shadar-Kai, but I'm not too fussed on them myself. I definitely wouldn't want one as a player.
Bel
[indent]Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Shifter, and Doppelganger.[/indent]
It's just the smartest bet.
I'm certain we'll see Shadar-Kai eventually. However, for PH2, bet on:
[indent]Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Shifter, and Doppelganger.[/indent]
It's just the smartest bet.
I fully agree. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Since Eberron is coming out in 2009, the same year as PHB2, and 4 out of 5 of those races have important places in Eberron but can easily be added to ANY campaign, these races will most likely be in PHB2.
I'm certain we'll see Shadar-Kai eventually. However, for PH2, bet on:
[indent]Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Shifter, and Doppelganger.[/indent]
It's just the smartest bet.
Except that doesn't have any races that have 'e' as a second letter, so one of them has to be wrong or there have to be more races then have been hinted at so far(I'd prefer the second, but for speculative purposes I'll assume the former). I'm going to go with shifter being the incorrect one and Seraphim, one of the proposed Aasimar renames, being in there instead.
I'm certain we'll see Shadar-Kai eventually. However, for PH2, bet on:
[indent]Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Shifter, and Doppelganger.[/indent]
It's just the smartest bet.
what about deva, instead of doppleganger, as a playable aasimar-equivalent race?
I'm going to go with shifter being the incorrect one and Seraphim, one of the proposed Aasimar renames, being in there instead.
In that case your no longer using h for a second letter so we have to have a Dh race.
In that case your no longer using h for a second letter so we have to have a Dh race.
....Dang it, my bad. I'm just going to support MaximumHavoc's theory because it works a whole lot better then anything I could come up with(although I still prefer Seraphim as the new Aasimar name).
Lerin
Gnome- We kinda needed these. Was an obvious choice.
Half-Orc- Do we need these as a core race? Never cared for them, or half-dragons, half-giants, half-anything. A half-orc is a human to me. Rather have orc here. They just don't want the monstrous races to be core pc ones.
From the cover of the PHB2 it looks like it may be a fey or shifter. So, Shifter makes sence. Not a fan of Shifters, but oh well. (a good toned down lycanthrope)
D will likely be Doppleganger. They talked about how they concidered Changeling for PHB 1. Since they're the same now, Doppleganger is good bet.
I was kinda hopeing H would have been the new Aasimar or even Hobgoblin. Though it don't make too much sence to have a Hobgoblin without a Goblin.
what about deva, instead of doppleganger, as a playable aasimar-equivalent race?
Honestly, of all of my guesses, doppelganger is the one I'm least sure of, so maybe you're right. But I'm still pretty sure of doppelganger.
I'm excited about the new "angel" race, especially if they're at all like the new angels! I guess I can see "Deva" as the racial name, but it reminds me too much of "diva". (It's easier to imagine when I focus on the Hindu interpretation.)
they also iirc were saying that the doppleganger and changling were the same thing........
...Yes.
Except that doesn't have any races that have 'e' as a second letter, so one of them has to be wrong or there have to be more races then have been hinted at so far(I'd prefer the second, but for speculative purposes I'll assume the former). I'm going to go with shifter being the incorrect one and Seraphim, one of the proposed Aasimar renames, being in there instead.
I'm gonna go with, "The 'e' was mentioned in error." :P
Remember, the number of "b"s and "r"s was wrong, so why not "second-letter 'e's"?
which would be the celstial
Coupled with earlier clues that:
the first letters would be Gn, G, D, H and S
second letters would be o, e, and h
last letter would be r
How about:
Genasi
Gnome or Gnoll
Doppleganger
Half-Orc
Shifter
the E could be Seraphim
which would be the celstial
I would love that to be true. I have always wanted to play a celestial without all the level adjustment that is no longer present in 4E
I'm gonna go with, "The 'e' was mentioned in error." :P
Remember, the number of "b"s and "r"s was wrong, so why not "second-letter 'e's"?
While true, they did correct the other errors within a few weeks(actually might have been days, but I'm too lazy to check). They have yet to do so with any of the second letters, so I am going to assume that the letters are correct......or they are playing a trick on us(although one B for classes would have been better if they were going to try to play a trick).
How about:
Genasi
Gnome or Gnoll
Doppleganger
Half-Orc
Shifter
*slams his forehead on his keyboard* Gensai are in Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, and we have Goliaths confirmed for PHB2.
Remember, the number of "b"s and "r"s was wrong, so why not "second-letter 'e's"?
Definitely possible. Although you think he would have corrected it by now.
How about:
Genasi
Gnome or Gnoll
Doppleganger
Half-Orc
Shifter
We already know what Gn, H and Go are.
While half-orc is very likely, it may not be 100% official, or it may change.
The game store here, which I am good friends with the owner, showed me the same thing. He knows I am a big half-orc fan. Made me happier then a pig in heat.
Makes sense with the barbarians being in the same book.
I do think that we will get dopplegangers and shifters, they are relatively setting neutral, but along with gnomes and half-orcs are integral to Eberron, which is coming out in 2009 as well.
With Ebberon coming out a few months after the PHB, I don't see them blowing their load with the races. I think the S one is going to be the new assimar (spelling), but named something we have not heard before, and I think the D one is going to fall under the same category.
I wouldn't be too sure about gnomes. Gnolls seem more likely to me -- not because it would be wise (I don't think it would be), but because gnolls have got more published support under their belt right now than gnomes do. That article on Yeenoghu, and the cool artwork, is what I mean. For gnomes we have one picture and a lot of fanboy outcry.
There is a gnome on the cover, and a goliath. That is the most confirmed it gets...
I know Shifters are more likely, but I'd really like to see some 4e support for Shadar-Kai..
Wouldn't they make more sense in the shadow power source book! You're kidding yourself if you think they are primal.
From the cover of the PHB2 it looks like it may be a fey or shifter. So, Shifter makes sence. Not a fan of Shifters, but oh well. (a good toned down lycanthrope)
Um, the picture of the cover is a gnome (druid presumably), and a golith! There is no shifter!
How about:
Genasi
Already in the FR players guide!
Um, the picture of the cover is a gnome (druid presumably), and a golith! There is no shifter!
I've heard a lot of speculation about what the other creature is and this is the first I've heard about it being a gnome. Its certainly possible, but by no means definite. Have you got an official source saying what race it is?
I've heard a lot of speculation about what the other creature is and this is the first I've heard about it being a gnome. Its certainly possible, but by no means definite. Have you got an official source saying what race it is?
Educated guess with some sound reasoning...
It looks like the gnome in the MM.
Gnome has been confirmed in the book, as the OP posted...
Looking at the image the woman is somewhere between 3 and 4 foot, (last I checked shifters were human sized, this is much more halfling sized), based on it's height to the golith and the size of the pumas (ghosts) next to it.
Add them all up and one gets - gnome! Or they made another race with gnome like dimensions that fills the same nitch in the world which would be a real cop-out if you ask me!
Definitely possible. Although you think he would have corrected it by now.
I dunno about that, John. They're not under any obligation to release hints or spoilers, especially eight months ahead of time.
I expect the races of PH2 to be relatively familiar: Doppelganger, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Shifter.
I wouldn't be too sure about gnomes.
I thought gnomes were confirmed
I don't know why you all keep talking about gnome and doppleganger being new races since they're already playable races included in the back of the monster manual. The gnoll is also in there as are shadar-kai and shifters although their is only two types of shifters in the MM so they could possibly introduce others. The only ones u mentioned that aren't in there are the goliath and half-orc, which im guaranteeing will be in the PHB2.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, when gnomes and dopplegangers are talked about as being 'new', it would mean as a fully detailed race, not just a minor afterthought as they currently are. So, a bunch of feats for these races, and a write up about them similar to what is done with the races in the current PHB.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, when gnomes and dopplegangers are talked about as being 'new', it would mean as a fully detailed race, not just a minor afterthought as they currently are. So, a bunch of feats for these races, and a write up about them similar to what is done with the races in the current PHB.
That is correct. Just as drow are considered a new race for the upcoming FR Players Guide
Looking at the image the woman is somewhere between 3 and 4 foot, (last I checked shifters were human sized, this is much more halfling sized), based on it's height to the golith and the size of the pumas (ghosts) next to it.
I dunno. Goliaths could be a pretty tall race and those pumas come up to her thigh if she is standing straight (at the moment she's tilting as if she's about to fall over). Wouldn't pumas come up to that height on a human?
I was hoping that Wizards wasn't making this god awful mistake, they already have the Dragonborn in the first PHB, but it seems everything that had been in the previous edition, whether it was good or bad, will make a return eventually.
This is not a good thing.
...
I was hoping that Wizards wasn't making this god awful mistake, they already have the Dragonborn in the first PHB, but it seems everything that had been in the previous edition, whether it was good or bad, will make a return eventually.
This is not a good thing.
I didn't realize Half-Orcs and Dragonborn were so similar.
You realize that what was bad before doesn't have to be bad now, right?
I didn't realize Half-Orcs and Dragonborn were so similar.
You realize that what was bad before doesn't have to be bad now, right?
The whole idea of a half wit half breed from a monster race for a PC race is a bad one.
Always has been and always will be. Nothing you can say will change that.
Having the Half Orc make a return inside any PHB is a mistake and should be reconsidered. Let Eberron keep them, they have a better back story for their existence, and are more intergrated in the setting. They are an after thought in the generic setting PoL.
Two things here, you do realize that half-orcs have been around since 1st E. that makes them more a part of the game then any of the variations of elves, and halflings as we know them (they were hobbits then). And for 2, they gave half-orcs a whole new back story, much as they did with dwarves, and elves etc....
Aren't you just peeing in the coffee before you taste it?
I dunno. Goliaths could be a pretty tall race and those pumas come up to her thigh if she is standing straight (at the moment she's tilting as if she's about to fall over). Wouldn't pumas come up to that height on a human?
Goliaths are rather tall, over 7' as I recall, that would put a human up to about the upper chest (clavicle region) for a 6' person. That isn't happening no matter how high that chick stands.
Good eye on the lean though, but I might point out the the pumas are not standing tall either, they are stalking and thus lower then full height.
It looks like the gnome in the MM.
Gnome has been confirmed in the book, as the OP posted...
Looking at the image the woman is somewhere between 3 and 4 foot, (last I checked shifters were human sized, this is much more halfling sized), based on it's height to the golith and the size of the pumas (ghosts) next to it.
If that is a gnome, it is surely the yao ming of gnomes. If you moved her back next to the 7' goliath, she's easily be 6' high.
Two things here, you do realize that half-orcs have been around since 1st E. that makes them more a part of the game then any of the variations of elves, and halflings as we know them (they were hobbits then). And for 2, they gave half-orcs a whole new back story, much as they did with dwarves, and elves etc....
Aren't you just peeing in the coffee before you taste it?
Goliaths are rather tall, over 7' as I recall, that would put a human up to about the upper chest (clavicle region) for a 6' person. That isn't happening no matter how high that chick stands.
Good eye on the lean though, but I might point out the the pumas are not standing tall either, they are stalking and thus lower then full height.
They were taken out in 2nd edition, and no one missed them. They were hampered in 3rd edition with crappy stats and even worse background.
The races in the previous edition could have been just fine without the half orc, it wasn't needed, just as it could have been just fine without the Monk. Having two LG only classes was redundant. (All my player have to have a good alignment, btw, in the previous edition. we are heroes, after all)
Good point about the existing Gnoll stuff, but maybe the fanboy outcry is enough to get Gnomes in.
Personally, I'd MUCH rather see Gnomes. In my opinion, they're a staple race.
Especially since the "I" class could very well be Illusionist! We can make gnome Illusionists again!
umm, I could have swore gnomes were in PHB I, they just renamed em halflings...
They got taller, pointy ears, shoes, and no bellies. Obviously gnomes.
Gnomes that shave their chins and like rivers, but still gnomes
If that is a gnome, it is surely the yao ming of gnomes. If you moved her back next to the 7' goliath, she's easily be 6' high.
Negative Ghost Rider that pattern is full! Even standing tall she is at best up to his elbow. If he is seven foot, then she is five or less. 6 foot would place her at his upper chest and she isn't getting there with a step stool! That said, seeing as how the halflings "grew" to make sense, I can fully see the playable race of gnomes growing.
Again it is just an educated guess. It could be a whole new race that is under 5 foot that we have never heard of before.
They were taken out in 2nd edition, and no one missed them. They were hampered in 3rd edition with crappy stats and even worse background.
In second edition you could find them in the Complete book of humanoids.
3rd they got raped, I'll give you that! But they have already addressed the back story, stating that the ugly back story is what kept them out of the PHB1 in the first place.
All I am saying with the peeing in the coffee is "shouldn't you at least read about them before passing judgment on them?"
The races in the previous edition could have been just fine without the half orc, it wasn't needed, just as it could have been just fine without the Monk. Having two LG only classes was redundant. (All my player have to have a good alignment, btw, in the previous edition. we are heroes, after all)
The half-orc fills a nitch, but I can agree with you on the monk! Never saw the Asian class influence in regular D&D. The setting sure, but not normal D&D! Never liked the ninja or anything else, so the Ki power source book is one I will not be getting.
As to orcs, they have always been presented as a third branch of the same tree as elfs, and humans. It made sense if there were half-elves, then there would be half-orcs, and elf-orcs as well. They were all interbreedable. So the half-orc never bothered me. That said that was the only half- "MM race" I cared for; no half-giants, or drow or any other nonsense!
They were taken out in 2nd edition, and no one missed them. They were hampered in 3rd edition with crappy stats and even worse background.
The races in the previous edition could have been just fine without the half orc, it wasn't needed, just as it could have been just fine without the Monk. Having two LG only classes was redundant. (All my player have to have a good alignment, btw, in the previous edition. we are heroes, after all)
Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait a minute. Weren't you all ways saying that WOTC ****ed up by not including the classes and races from 3.5? What is it with you? One or the other?
If he is seven foot, then she is five or less. 6 foot would place her at his upper chest and she isn't getting there with a step stool!
Aaaah! But gnomes are suppose to be 3'8 at the very highest. That's what's been nagging at me, this gnome just seems too tall. BUT I concede that she should be taller if she were a human or shifter.
So I'm inclined to agree and say she's a gnome (that or a new race). I don't think it fits perfectly, but I think it fits better then a shifter.
The whole idea of a half wit half breed from a monster race for a PC race is a bad one.
Always has been and always will be. Nothing you can say will change that.
Right, but my point was that it's what WotC says that makes a difference. (Nothing I can say will change your mind.)
If WotC makes Half-Orcs both cool and non-suck, then you will have a plate fulla words to eat, thaX.
However, I can't help but think that those ghostly panthers are illusions, created by that female, and thus there will be an Illusionist class. And if there is an Illusionist class, there could very well be a Gnome race detailed in the PHB2.
Also, her face does look similar in style to the gnome pictured in the MM, what with the sunken eyes, palish skin, and what looks to be horns on the head.
The female on that cover does look a bit too tall to be a gnome (though the artist could have simply done a poor job at proportioning the tall goliath with the small gnome).
However, I can't help but think that those ghostly panthers are illusions, created by that female, and thus there will be an Illusionist class. And if there is an Illusionist class, there could very well be a Gnome race detailed in the PHB2.
Also, her face does look similar in style to the gnome pictured in the MM, what with the sunken eyes, palish skin, and what looks to be horns on the head.
She could also be a Shaman, and those could be spirits.
She could also be a Shaman, and those could be spirits.
Ah. Shaman. Could be, especially because of the Primal power source coming up. However, they may not bring out the Shaman in the same book as the Druid, considering the two classes are similar.
It's hard to see in that small picture of the cover, but it looks like her right hand holds a wand, with the panther emanating from it; this seems more like an arcane casting thing.
Anyway, It would be great if both the Gnome race and the Illusionist class are in the PHB2. It would be nice to have the option of playing a gnome illusionist again, especially if illusions in general are a bit less confusing than in 3rd edition.
And I have to agree it is not doppelganger; it doesn't fit the clues, and I'd not be surprised if they saved them for Eberron. As such, goliath, gnome, half-orc (ugh!), and shifter all seem likely, but doppelganger (given our clues) much less so. De is hopefully a new race, and while I'm not a fan of it being Deva or Derro, those are both interesting guesses. I'd rather it be something more exotic, though.
I'm personally hoping for another throughly non-human race. We had the dragonborn in the first book, but this book will have big humans, small humans, ugly humans, and shapeshifting humans - it'd be nice to get something else different.
Right, but my point was that it's what WotC says that makes a difference. (Nothing I can say will change your mind.)
If WotC makes Half-Orcs both cool and non-suck, then you will have a plate fulla words to eat, thaX.
So how to make them different... lets see...
I know, lets make Orcs into ugly humans instead of the monsters that they are known to be!
Yeah! That's the ticket!!!
Fact is, no matter what the background or story the Half Orc is still gonna suffer from the most common reason for their existance. Nothing is gonna change that.
I'm personally hoping for another throughly non-human race. We had the dragonborn in the first book, but this book will have big humans, small humans, ugly humans, and shapeshifting humans - it'd be nice to get something else different.
But Dragonborn are just repitillian humans. I'd say that that is fairly human like.:P
Aaaah! But gnomes are suppose to be 3'8 at the very highest. That's what's been nagging at me, this gnome just seems too tall. BUT I concede that she should be taller if she were a human or shifter.
So I'm inclined to agree and say she's a gnome (that or a new race). I don't think it fits perfectly, but I think it fits better then a shifter.
Great observation Brother, you could be totally spot on yourself (considering artistic interpretation and all). The one thing that really kinda threw me off to the whole height was the width of the knees. They are bird legs, heck, Paris Hilton's knees are bigger then that!
However, I can't help but think that those ghostly panthers are illusions, created by that female, and thus there will be an Illusionist class. And if there is an Illusionist class, there could very well be a Gnome race detailed in the PHB2.
Also, her face does look similar in style to the gnome pictured in the MM, what with the sunken eyes, palish skin, and what looks to be horns on the head.
Per the online version of the illusionist they use psychic power source. However nothing is preventing them from changing it, it just dosen't give them alot of credibility when it comes to dungeon and dragon mags being 100% canon.
That said I would love to see the return of the gnome illusionist.
Another option on the panthers was that they could be the new version of summoned creatures, that don't last long. I still have no clue how they are planning to handle summoning, but druids would definitely benefit from having "pets", at least in flavor.
As to the horns, that was a great observation, I saw them and immediately thought druid because of the WoW druid armor and the horns! (Not even trying to start the comparison of WoW to D&D, just how I registered the picture.)
She could also be a Shaman, and those could be spirits.
Could be, well said!
I know, lets make Orcs into ugly humans instead of the monsters that they are known to be!
Fact is, no matter what the background or story the Half Orc is still gonna suffer from the most common reason for their existance. Nothing is gonna change that.
Um, in the no negative stat system the half-orc would only be as ugly as every other race that didn't get a CHA bonus.
Fact of the matter is you're not going to use them no matter what they do to them, and that is fine.
I am not going to allow gensi characters into my PoL setting because they are elemental blooded, and no town is ever going to allow them in. Makes it too hard to be one. I don't allow drow for the same reason, however I do like the forgotten realms aspect with the orcs being misunderstood and joining with the other civilized races and may use that in my setting at least for an off-breed of them.
As to half-orcs, I took an early design note for them and implemented it into my campaign. Half-orcs came into being because an evil mage created them some centuries back. Now they are born to both families of orcs and humans at rare random intervals. It is considered an honor in most towns to have a half-orc child with them, yadda yadda yadda. With that I am getting my players used to the new way half-orcs are panning out in my campaign so when they do become available they are not stuck with old views. At that point when a new character is rolled, I am going to allow a % roll with a 05 chance that the character can make a half-orc.
Goliath = +2 STR, +2 CON
Half-Orc = +2 STR, +2 WIS
Gnome = +2 INT, +2 CHA
My guess for the last two races are:
Deva(The new 'celestial' race) = +2 WIS, +2 CHA
Shifter = +2 var, +2 WIS
(The 'variable' depends on shifter 'type')
The reason why there's only five listed may be because different 'types' of shifter (such as the 'longtooth' or 'razorclaw' from the first MM) may be statted out differently (with each granting a bonus to WIS and another that). These races also fit the second PHB's focus on 'primal, divine, and arcane heroes'. Gnomes will probably have an 'arcane' focus, while Deva fill the 'divine' role. The rest (half-orcs, goliaths, and shifters) have a deservedly 'primal' feel, and will help to showcase those classes.
So how to make them different... lets see...
I know, lets make Orcs into ugly humans instead of the monsters that they are known to be!
Yeah! That's the ticket!!!
Fact is, no matter what the background or story the Half Orc is still gonna suffer from the most common reason for their existance. Nothing is gonna change that.
Ah, so you are saying that orcs MUST be monsters. I don't know what setting you play, but I have said it before, half-orcs in Eberron are pretty cool. They aren't the product of ****, and I find they have an interesting niche in the world. While yes, most fantasy portrays orcs as evil mindless brutes, and that is where you get that notion, what I find most disturbing is your inability to be open-minded about what they can do for the race.
In essence, you are racist. Thankfully, as far as I know, it is only to a make believe race. But, if the shoe fits. You don't like half-orcs, that's fine. You have your opinion, it seems you are too close minded and stubborn to give them a chance no matter what anyone may do with the race. I figure this is your loss. But to come on here and say NO one likes the race, or that it is stupid, is pretty arrogant. I don't mind you saying you don't like them. You don't have to use them, or anything in the books for that matter, if it doesn't fit your game. If I make a setting where I say there are no dwarves, fine, that is the setting I make. Those are the rules for that world, for whatever reason. While I like dwarves, or in terms of this conversation we can also say half-orcs, but decide not to use them because it fits the story then I'll do so. Likewise if I dislike a race, but they fit the story/adventure I want to craft I'll use them.
The point I'm trying to make though, is that even if you don't like something someone else will, and coming here and stating your opinion in a matter of fact way doesn't make it the correct or the only opinion.
Really, being close minded is your loss in the long run, and dare I say shows a lack of imagination in some regard. I also wonder if your unreasonable hatred of this race means you pick on players that like the race if you run a game. If that is the case, I truly pity you.
The three 'confirmed' races are Goliath, Half-Orc, and Gnome, which completes the full ensemble of 'core' 3rd edition races. (The stats are an educated guess).
Goliath = +2 STR, +2 CON
Half-Orc = +2 STR, +2 WIS
Gnome = +2 INT, +2 CHA
My guess for the last two races are:
Deva(The new 'celestial' race) = +2 WIS, +2 CHA
Shifter = +2 var, +2 WIS
(The 'variable' depends on shifter 'type')
The reason why there's only five listed may be because different 'types' of shifter (such as the 'longtooth' or 'razorclaw' from the first MM) may be statted out differently (with each granting a bonus to WIS and another that). These races also fit the second PHB's focus on 'primal, divine, and arcane heroes'. Gnomes will probably have an 'arcane' focus, while Deva fill the 'divine' role. The rest (half-orcs, goliaths, and shifters) have a deservedly 'primal' feel, and will help to showcase those classes.
i think that you hit the nail on the head
i think that you hit the nail on the head
I don't know.. I still think there will be doplegangers in the PHB2
they also iirc were saying that the doppleganger and changling were the same thing........
I wondered about that, when I noticed the new Doppelganger illo in MM looks more like a Changeling than the old-style Doppelganger (you know, the Grey Alien guy).
Those two were way too similar in function anyway, so simplifying by combining them makes sense, I guess.
Now, something hit me, while I was browsing around looking for various 4e DMing tools. On this one site there listed races and chances that they may show up, nothing really new there, but as soon as I read the words half-giant, I had an epiphany:
What if Goliaths ate the half giant and took some of their DNA.. err.. stuff? Really these two seem to fill the tall strong guy niche, and what with all the questioning about the other race on the cover with the goliath being gnome.. well, since I still believe the shifter will be in the PHB2 - and that said cover race is a shifter. This makes sense to me since it doesn't look like a gnome proportion wise. So, maybe Goliaths were made larger than in the previous edition? Like I said, they and half-giants may have been combined.
See one of the problems with trying to guess what the race on the cover is, is thinking in 3.x terms when it comes to the races. 4e has changed things about races that we've previously known. Perhaps this is one of those cases.
Just food for thought.
Yes, changelings and dopelgangers are the same race now.
Now, something hit me, while I was browsing around looking for various 4e DMing tools. On this one site there listed races and chances that they may show up, nothing really new there, but as soon as I read the words half-giant, I had an epiphany:
What if Goliaths ate the half giant and took some of their DNA.. err.. stuff? Really these two seem to fill the tall strong guy niche, and what with all the questioning about the other race on the cover with the goliath being gnome.. well, since I still believe the shifter will be in the PHB2 - and that said cover race is a shifter. This makes sense to me since it doesn't look like a gnome proportion wise. So, maybe Goliaths were made larger than in the previous edition? Like I said, they and half-giants may have been combined.
See one of the problems with trying to guess what the race on the cover is, is thinking in 3.x terms when it comes to the races. 4e has changed things about races that we've previously known. Perhaps this is one of those cases.
Just food for thought.
Actually, I'm certain I read Rich Baker saying just that; that Goliaths did kill Half-Giants and take their stuff.
Ah, so you are saying that orcs MUST be monsters. I don't know what setting you play, but I have said it before, half-orcs in Eberron are pretty cool. They aren't the product of ****, and I find they have an interesting niche in the world. While yes, most fantasy portrays orcs as evil mindless brutes, and that is where you get that notion, what I find most disturbing is your inability to be open-minded about what they can do for the race.
In essence, you are racist. Thankfully, as far as I know, it is only to a make believe race. But, if the shoe fits. You don't like half-orcs, that's fine. You have your opinion, it seems you are too close minded and stubborn to give them a chance no matter what anyone may do with the race. I figure this is your loss. But to come on here and say NO one likes the race, or that it is stupid, is pretty arrogant. I don't mind you saying you don't like them. You don't have to use them, or anything in the books for that matter, if it doesn't fit your game. If I make a setting where I say there are no dwarves, fine, that is the setting I make. Those are the rules for that world, for whatever reason. While I like dwarves, or in terms of this conversation we can also say half-orcs, but decide not to use them because it fits the story then I'll do so. Likewise if I dislike a race, but they fit the story/adventure I want to craft I'll use them.
The point I'm trying to make though, is that even if you don't like something someone else will, and coming here and stating your opinion in a matter of fact way doesn't make it the correct or the only opinion.
Really, being close minded is your loss in the long run, and dare I say shows a lack of imagination in some regard. I also wonder if your unreasonable hatred of this race means you pick on players that like the race if you run a game. If that is the case, I truly pity you.
To say that the generic Orc in the monster manual will be like the "reformed Orcs" in a specific setting is to ignore all the material, from Wizards or from other works of fiction, completely. If you want a Klingon, then make one, but please don't think that waisting an entry in the PHB2 for a Half Orc is somehow different than what it was before. The cute drawings of females from the WoW game aside, Orcs are the ugly, brutish, uncaring monsters that we know from the very beginning of the game, and the Half Orc should be in the Eberron player's guide, not the PHB. They are not ugly humans, and the background of the Eberron Orc takes that into consideration.
It is a mistake to put it in the PHB at all, whether it is the second, third, or any other ones that come to be.
umm, I could have swore gnomes were in PHB I, they just renamed em halflings...
They got taller, pointy ears, shoes, and no bellies. Obviously gnomes.
Gnomes that shave their chins and like rivers, but still gnomes
Halflings had pointy ears, shoes, and weren't fat slobs in 3rd Edition, too, for the record.
To say that the generic Orc in the monster manual will be like the "reformed Orcs" in a specific setting is to ignore all the material, from Wizards or from other works of fiction, completely. If you want a Klingon, then make one, but please don't think that waisting an entry in the PHB2 for a Half Orc is somehow different than what it was before. The cute drawings of females from the WoW game aside, Orcs are the ugly, brutish, uncaring monsters that we know from the very beginning of the game, and the Half Orc should be in the Eberron player's guide, not the PHB. They are not ugly humans, and the background of the Eberron Orc takes that into consideration.
It is a mistake to put it in the PHB at all, whether it is the second, third, or any other ones that come to be.
Okay, fine, we get it, thaX. You don't like Half-Orcs, so don't buy PH2.
I am not the only one that hated the inclusion of the half orc, it was taken out of 2nd edition and most that seen it in 3.0 went... HUH? when they saw it.
As I have said before, we already have the Dragonborn, we don't need the race it replaced in a later book.
Well, since the Gnomes are in, as well as the Druid and Bard, I will be buying the PHB2 no matter if the Half Orc is in or not.
I am not the only one that hated the inclusion of the half orc, it was taken out of 2nd edition and most that seen it in 3.0 went... HUH? when they saw it.
As I have said before, we already have the Dragonborn, we don't need the race it replaced in a later book.
As I said before, I'm not clear on what similarities there are between Dragonborn and Orcs / Half-Orcs, nor was I aware that they were intended to "replace" anything.
What similarities are there? Oh, right, they both get a bonus to Strength.
Well, since the Gnomes are in, as well as the Druid and Bard, I will be buying the PHB2 no matter if the Half Orc is in or not.
On the other hand, those three things make me lean AWAY from the PHB2. I never cared for Bards, Druids, Half-Orcs or Gnomes.
I would rather have gnolls than gnomes, but I freely admit the odds are much better that the gnome will be in the PHB2 before the gnoll.
Well, since the Gnomes are in, as well as the Druid and Bard, I will be buying the PHB2 no matter if the Half Orc is in or not.
I am not the only one that hated the inclusion of the half orc, it was taken out of 2nd edition and most that seen it in 3.0 went... HUH? when they saw it.
As I have said before, we already have the Dragonborn, we don't need the race it replaced in a later book.
I just finished a 2nd ed campaign as a half orc fighter? What do you mean they were taken out of 2ed? Anyway whats with all the half orc hate? I love them!
I just finished a 2nd ed campaign as a half orc fighter? What do you mean they were taken out of 2ed? Anyway whats with all the half orc hate? I love them!
They are not in the 2nd Edition PHB, nor in a core product. The write up is in a supplemental book, one that wasn't very popular.
In third edition, the race is hamstrung and not well thought out. The "fluff" for them is retarded, and the favor class was one specifically made for them.
To answer the question about Dragonborn, they are the brute race without the iffy background. There really is only the look of the race that is the difference between the two. Dragonborn replaced the Half Orc.
There really is only the look of the race that is the difference between the two. Dragonborn replaced the Half Orc.
Half Orcs once had one of the strongest empires the world had ever seen based around the worshipof dragons?
My gosh my knowledge of 3.X half orcs is a lot worse then I thought it was.Half Orcs once had one of the strongest empires the world had ever seen based around the worshipof dragons?
The guy spoke specialy in terms of 'ecological niche' so to speak, methink. They took the Half-orcs place as the big, burly race option.
Albeit yes, the fluff is vastly different - rejected hybrids vs noble heirloom scions. (And a race is more than stats...)
The guy spoke specialy in terms of 'ecological niche' so to speak, methink. They took the Half-orcs place as the big, burly race option.
Albeit yes, the fluff is vastly different - rejected hybrids vs noble heirloom scions. (And a race is more than stats...)
Yeah I know what he meant, but it is much more fun to read what people write as opposed to what they mean.:D
If I want to do something different with the orcs, or even just some orcs, that's my call...I mean, humans aren't the only species that can have different cultures within that species, and you don't always need a whole sub-race dedicated to that. Maybe I just don't like the assumption folks seem to make and am going to assume that, despite being vicious marauders, orcs rarely force themselves on human women, and instead half-orcs largely come from the tiny trickle of orcs that have adapted to the new age and are finding work in the great cities of the world as unskilled labor. That's my call, y'know? I'd rather an option be there for me to turn down than not around at all.
Bel
I was hoping for more primal races like, Killoreen, Catfolk or Sharakim.
Bel
You want furry haters on WOTC's behinds?
, and Yuan-ti. I don't want to see any more that can't meaningfully contribute to the game's flavour.Please no Equicephs. No Rheks. No Joe-Camels.
Reducdancy is something the new design philosophy try to cut, however.
I was semi-serious ;) but well, personaly, I don't mind it at all. If it's flavourfull, fills a niche empty and well-made... why not.
Reducdancy is something the new design philosophy try to cut, however.
lol It's okay. I realize that some folks like things that I can't stand, and that I like things they can't stand. I suppose I'm just looking for middle ground; some concessions to make these things more palatable to each of us.
Cutting the redundancy, flavour- and mechanics-wise, will go a long way towards winning me over. (So far, I'm not sure I could be more enthused about the new edition!)
To say that the generic Orc in the monster manual will be like the "reformed Orcs" in a specific setting is to ignore all the material, from Wizards or from other works of fiction, completely. If you want a Klingon, then make one, but please don't think that waisting an entry in the PHB2 for a Half Orc is somehow different than what it was before. The cute drawings of females from the WoW game aside,
Okay, I'm not trying to make a personal attack here, and I don't know if you DM for your group or not, but your games must be fairly one dimensional. See enemy kill enemy, and all that. Take a step back and look at human culture all over the planet, we've had benevolent and malevolent civilizations, tribes and cultures throughout our history, I don't see ANY reason why there can't be good orcs, just as there can be evil dwarves or elves. Orcs don't have to be 'reformed', they can be from another tribe, you know ones that are smart enough to adapt to civilization, instead of just being the normal brutish raiders that are presented. This isn't a cop out, this is a logical, normal behavior for a race to assimilate into another culture. Especially in a world, such as those with D&D, where there are countless sentient species all on one world. It's survival of the fittest. Assimilate or die, and that has nothing to do with star trek's borg.
Orcs are the ugly, brutish, uncaring monsters that we know from the very beginning of the game, and the Half Orc should be in the Eberron player's guide, not the PHB. They are not ugly humans, and the background of the Eberron Orc takes that into consideration.
You know, HUMANS have proven in the real world, to be every bit as brutish, uncaring monsters that orcs are presented as, but they are allowed as a player race. And as to Ugly, well, you know what, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I know this is a long shot, but did it ever occur to you that when playing orcs, they may consider humans to be the ugly ones? I guess not.. you seem to like the one dimensional portrayal of the race. You are perpetuating a stereotype.. I find that sad, if you were doing this towards a real world race, I'd find it offensive and petty.
It is a mistake to put it in the PHB at all, whether it is the second, third, or any other ones that come to be.
You know, considering the amount of people on here that are either for or indifferent to the half-orc, and comparing that to those who are against, I think you're in the minority here. So, it's not that big of a mistake at all.
I'm done with talking to you about this, you've made up your mind about the race, without seeing it, pre-judging.. you know, where prejudice comes from. The way I see it, it's your loss being so close-minded, but nothing I or anyone can say will change your mind on them. Now, if after the book comes out you read the race, and you decide you still don't like them, fine, but to do that without making an informed decision? I don't understand that behaviour.
Eh, making anthro races in D&D isn't that hard ... I've discovered that you can take the stats for what we already have and just rewrite it. Goblins, for example, being scurrying, sneaky little things, make *great* ratmen.
You're a better sport than most, Salla.
For me, D&D with rampant anthropomorphs just seems to give off too much "Care Bear Cousins" flavour for my own tastes. :P
Elfen Lied, anyone?
You're a better sport than most, Salla.
For me, D&D with rampant anthropomorphs just seems to give off too much "Care Bear Cousins" flavour for my own tastes. :P
When the Care Bear Stare turns you to stone, you think twice about that.
As the anime world show, you can mix cute and grotesque/dark.. ;)
Elfen Lied, anyone?
(Tried to multi-quote, but it didn't work.)
Never heard of it.
When the Care Bear Stare turns you to stone, you think twice about that.
This actually made me lol. :D
Maybe WotC should release the 4E Care-A-Lot Campaign Setting in 2010. In their native setting, I may not find anthropomorphs to be so bad! :P
This actually made me lol. :D
Maybe WotC should release the 4E Care-A-Lot Campaign Setting in 2010. In their native setting, I may not find anthropomorphs to be so bad! :P
I actually own two furry campaign setting books (Ironclaw and Furry Pirates), which qualify as having interesting worlds but crappy systems. I was working on a conversion in 3rd Edition days, but it was a pain. While looking over the monster races for inspiration on encounter powers, I realized that most of the monster races make good anthropomorphic races as-is, with minor tweaks at most (like making the Githyanki flight self-only and a leap instead of flight, and you have a great rabbit).
They were taken out in 2nd edition, and no one missed them.
I don't know if you where around at the time or if you where how big a circle of gamers you new but around here it was one of the big things that gamers hated and was a major point of conflict in the 1st/2nd schism and was one of the first things added to 2ed after the management change at TSR. The other thing was that the 1ed 1/2 orc easily converted to 2ed and was used in almost ever 2 ed game I ever gamed in. You do realize that the People that pulled the 1/2 orc from 2ed where the same people that sued ever one they could and earned T$R there dollar sign!
They were hampered in 3rd edition with crappy stats and even worse background.
Yes they where crappy in 3rd ed, there is no doubt about it.
but despite that lots of gamers have tried and succeeded in creating fine PC using the the 1/2 orc. Defiantly not the most optimized PC race but fun nun the less. When 3rd ed was released there was a lot of positive reaction to the 1/2 orcs inclusion.We can only hope that the 4th ed rules for the 1/2 orc will surpass the first 3 attempts.
I don't know if you where around at the time or if you where how big a circle of gamers you new but around here it was one of the big things that gamers hated and was a major point of conflict in the 1st/2nd schism and was one of the first things added to 2ed after the management change at TSR. The other thing was that the 1ed 1/2 orc easily converted to 2ed and was used in almost ever 2 ed game I ever gamed in. You do realize that the People that pulled the 1/2 orc from 2ed where the same people that sued ever one they could and earned T$R there dollar sign!
Yes they where crappy in 3rd ed, there is no doubt about it.
We can only hope that the 4th ed rules for the 1/2 orc will surpass the first 3 attempts.
I honestly hope there's substantially different flavour for them in 4E. The "torn between cultures" shtick is taken, and it's not an interesting enough shtick to necessitate another such race.
I hope they instead choose to flavour Half-Orcs as "noble savages"; tough and versatile frontier-folk raised among mixed tribes of Orcs and primal Humans. These Half-Orcs are wise wilderness guides, frontier diplomats, and of course, brave warriors; they are most at home on the fringes of civilization, preferring the simplicity of tribal life and testing themselves against nature over the structured, predictable life in towns and cities.
These Half-Orcs are people of the wild.
I would like the return of avariels (winged elfs). I didn´t dislike the raptorans from "races of wyld"...will we see the fusion of raptorans and avariel?
Half-giants will be in Psionic handbook, with the other races..
Shadar-kai can be a popular (evil) race, like a new drows (but with piercings and pale skin)..
Goblings pc can be a good race, only with the right racial traits. They are wonderful losers or anti-heroes. A gobling with Andalucian (from south Spain) would be very funny.
Hobgobling would be a great pc race for the future Oriental Adventures, with the bakemono (oriental goblings), tasloi, nezumi and the Korobokuru (oriental dwarfs/gnomes).
I think PH2 will have the return of aasimar race (but now with other name or background). Seraphin or Elohim?
Spellcalles (races of dragon) or kobolds? Why not?
Perhaps shifters, dopelgangers and warforged will be showed in 2009 Eberron player handbook. (What do you bet?)
I'm gonna bet zero today. I believe the Eberron Player's Guide will include Warforged and Kalashtar, two races that are fairly unique and iconic to Eberron. Shifters and Doppelgangers are much more generic and versatile fantasy concepts that just happened to first appear (in their current form) in 3.5E's Eberron Campaign Setting.
There's room in nearly every campaign for Dopplegangers and Shifters.
I would like the return of avariels (winged elfs). I didn´t dislike the raptorans from "races of wyld"...will we see the fusion of raptorans and avariel?
Don't count on it, at least not as a unique race. We were promised "No More Elves", and there isn't really any need for more. (Maybe Aquatic Elves in an Ocean setting.) Instead, if you want Avariels, expect to see racial feats to that effect in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide. Remember, elves with wings are just elves... with wings.
Raptorans, we might see. (But I hope not. I can't stand anthropomorphs.)
Half-giants will be in Psionic handbook, with the other races..
Nope, I heard Goliaths killed Half-Giants and took their stuff.
Shadar-kai can be a popular (evil) race, like a new drows (but with piercings and pale skin)..
Goblings pc can be a good race, only with the right racial traits. They are wonderful losers or anti-heroes. A gobling with Andalucian (from south Spain) would be very funny.
Hobgobling would be a great pc race for the future Oriental Adventures, with the bakemono (oriental goblings), tasloi, nezumi and the Korobokuru (oriental dwarfs/gnomes).
You're right, all of these would make good PC races, and I hope we see them eventually.
I think PH2 will have the return of aasimar race (but now with other name or background). Seraphin or Elohim?
These terms evoke more Judeo-Christian iconography than I prefer in my game.
Spellcalles (races of dragon) or kobolds? Why not?
These are what Dragonborn are supposed to replace! :P (Kobolds will probably show up, if not in a book then on DDI someday.)
Perhaps shifters, dopelgangers and warforged will be showed in 2009 Eberron player handbook. (What do you bet?)
Warforged and one other race will definitely appear. However I'm doubtful we'll get 3, and many are hoping for the second race to be Kalashtar (I think it exceedingly unlikely myself, but its what people are hoping for).
Warforged and one other race will definitely appear. However I'm doubtful we'll get 3, and many are hoping for the second race to be Kalashtar (I think it exceedingly unlikely myself, but its what people are hoping for).
Just outta curiosity, why do you think Kalashtar are unlikely, John?
Just outta curiosity, why do you think Kalashtar are unlikely, John?
I'm guessing because of the lack of psionics in 2009.
However, here's my take of the Kalashtar.
Kalashtar
Ability Scores: +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, Quori
Skill Bonuses: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Insight
Psychic Resistance: You have resist psychic 5 + one half-your level.
Naturally Psychic: Kalashtar get +1 to attack rolls when using powers with the Psychic Keyword
Kalashtar Diplomacy: You can use Kalashtar Diplomacy as an encounter power
Kalashtar Diplomacy
With a commanding presence, and gentle psychic nudge, you can influence others.
Encounter
Free Action * Personal
Effect: Reroll any bluff, intimidate, or diplomacy roll. Use the second roll, even if it is lower.
Ability Scores: +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, Quori
Skill Bonuses: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Insight
Psychic Resistance: You have resist psychic 5 + one half-your level.
Naturally Psychic: Kalashtar get +1 to attack rolls when using powers with the Psychic Keyword
Kalashtar Diplomacy: You can use Kalashtar Diplomacy as an encounter power
Kalashtar Diplomacy
With a commanding presence, and gentle psychic nudge, you can influence others.
Encounter
Free Action * Personal
Effect: Reroll any bluff, intimidate, or diplomacy roll. Use the second roll, even if it is lower.
Bel
Just outta curiosity, why do you think Kalashtar are unlikely, John?
Partly because there aren't any psionics yet, but also because I think we'll be getting Doppleganger or Shifter in its place. If both of those are in PHB2 then Kalashtar suddenly seems a lot more likely to me.
I'm guessing because of the lack of psionics in 2009.
However, here's my take of the Kalashtar.Kalashtar
Ability Scores: +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, Quori
Skill Bonuses: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Insight
Psychic Resistance: You have resist psychic 5 + one half-your level.
Naturally Psychic: Kalashtar get +1 to attack rolls when using powers with the Psychic Keyword
Kalashtar Diplomacy: You can use Kalashtar Diplomacy as an encounter power
Kalashtar Diplomacy
With a commanding presence, and gentle psychic nudge, you can influence others.
Encounter
Free Action * Personal
Effect: Reroll any bluff, intimidate, or diplomacy roll. Use the second roll, even if it is lower.
Why should they be anywhere other than the Eberron books?
I agree. But this is WotC ;) Just because its the most logical thing to do, doesn't mean its what they'll do.
I agree. But this is WotC ;) Just because its the most logical thing to do, doesn't mean its what they'll do.
lol Normally I don't take shots at WotC lightly, but you're right; it's their decision.
Could be that Kalashtar will be a subrace of Human, differentiated by feats and Sarlonan origin. This would be a great disservice, though.
On-Topic: Suffice to say, at this point, I firmly expect Shifters and Doppelgangers will be in PH2.
Not really, Mike Mearls gave five starting letters as his clue, there could be up to three more.
Bel
Thats what I thought. Thanks
(Tried to multi-quote, but it didn't work.)
Never heard of it.
no it never does here, well atleast I never got it to.
anyway........... I think he means elfen laid.
there is also one for niinja girls.......
basically its anime soft prn
no it never does here, well atleast I never got it to.
anyway........... I think he means elfen laid.
there is also one for niinja girls.......
basically its anime soft prn
Elfen Elfen laid is known for grotesque, disturbing amount of blood for a cutesy-style anime show; aliens with barely restrainable pulsions of rage when pushed up, and psychic 'arms' things...
The contradiction inherant there is a big part of the appeal.
Did anyone mention Deurgar?
No. But then again it could be because it aint spelt like that ;)
That said, for the unconfirmed races I'm inclined to go with Shadar'Kai and a celestial-themed race to balance out the Tieflings - maybe 'Deva'?
Counter argument is that Shifters work well with the Primal and Shadar'Kai might be held off until they release the Shadow power source.
Kalashtar are also confirmed for the Eberron book.
Apparently shifters are confirmed. Check out the Gen Con coverage. Our covergirl may still be a shifter indeed.
Kalashtar are also confirmed for the Eberron book.
Where is said GenCon coverage? Do you have a link?
Where is said GenCon coverage? Do you have a link?
Here. Shifters in the PHB2, Kalashtar in the eberron guide.
Shifter confirmed
* Player's Handbook II: includes gnomes, half-orcs, and shifters. What are the ghostly-looking felines on the cover? James remains coy.
* Eberron Campaign Guide: June 2009, "a fresh look at a familiar world."
* Eberron Player's Guide: July 2009.
* Secrets of the Ashen Crown: July 2009.
* DDI: continue to look for further Eberron content online in Dragon and Dungeon Magazines.
So that makes Gnome, Half-orc, Golith, and Shifter (so far)....
Part 2....
Kalashtar in Eberron by not Psionic (That is actually funny as hell)...
It's like here is your token race, now go to hell cause we are not doing psionics yet!
How will kalashtar work in the absence of psionics?
They are given a psionic flavor without confining them to a psionic class, much as current powers have a psionic flavor, dealing psychic damage.
Gen Con Coverage...
Shifter confirmed
So that makes Gnome, Half-orc, Golith, and Shifter (so far)....
Thanks for the link.. Glad to see those four in the PHB 2. I still expect dopplegangers to be in there.
Part 2....
Kalashtar in Eberron by not Psionic (That is actually funny as hell)...
It's like here is your token race, now go to hell cause we are not doing psionics yet!
I've posted this before, but just to show that it isn't a big screw you:
Kalashtar
Ability Scores: +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, Quori
Skill Bonuses: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Insight
Psychic Resistance: You have resist psychic 5 + one half-your level.
Naturally Psychic: Kalashtar get +1 to attack rolls when using powers with the Psychic Keyword
Kalashtar Diplomacy: You can use Kalashtar Diplomacy as an encounter power
Kalashtar Diplomacy
With a commanding presence, and gentle psychic nudge, you can influence others.
Encounter
Free Action * Personal
Effect: Reroll any bluff, intimidate, or diplomacy roll. Use the second roll, even if it is lower.
Ability Scores: +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, Quori
Skill Bonuses: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Insight
Psychic Resistance: You have resist psychic 5 + one half-your level.
Naturally Psychic: Kalashtar get +1 to attack rolls when using powers with the Psychic Keyword
Kalashtar Diplomacy: You can use Kalashtar Diplomacy as an encounter power
Kalashtar Diplomacy
With a commanding presence, and gentle psychic nudge, you can influence others.
Encounter
Free Action * Personal
Effect: Reroll any bluff, intimidate, or diplomacy roll. Use the second roll, even if it is lower.
Oh where have you gone my froggie people?
I'm dying to know the name of the De (or possibly just D) race now.
I think the only new player race in the PHB2 should be the Bullywug.
Oh where have you gone my froggie people?
Aren't Bullywugs Forgettable realms monsters? They'd be better of doing Grippli.
As to the 'D' race.. I've said it countless times, Doppleganger.
As to the 'D' race.. I've said it countless times, Doppleganger.
And its quite possible/likely, except it doesn't fit the clues given. So no matter how many times you say it, there's still a chance you're completely wrong.
no it never does here, well atleast I never got it to. anyway........... I think he means elfen laid. there is also one for niinja girls....... basically its anime soft prn
Using tried and true terminology, anyone directing honest inqueries into the nature of a masterpiece like Elfen Lied towards vagueries such as Elfen Laid (nsfw) while feigning ignorance as to the actual topic, should be shot. In the face. With a hammer. I'm sorry, sometimes the gross ignorance some people on this planet demonstrate just ticks me off. As for getting back on topic: Devas are likely the top contender for race #5, & I'm glad for it. Of the other 4, all but Shifter get a big "meh" from me, and I'm not even an Eberron fan (changelings/dopplegangers: ECS/EPG, PHIII, or never, I don't care).
Apparently shifters are confirmed. Check out the Gen Con coverage. Our covergirl may still be a shifter indeed.
Kalashtar are also confirmed for the Eberron book.
Unless I missed something, they have only confirmed that they are working on Kalashtars, not which book they will be in.
As to the 'D' race.. I've said it countless times, Doppleganger.
Except that your reasoning was that Dopplegangers would be in the PHBII so that they would be ready for Eberron. However they weren't mentioned in the GenCon thing like the Gnomes or Shifters(other important Eberron races).
I'm getting that feeling right now! :D
Unless I missed something, they have only confirmed that they are working on Kalashtars, not which book they will be in.
No, you're right, they didn't explicitly say which book Kalashtar would be in, but read between the lines, Ranadiel; they're discussing the Eberron setting and its products, and discussed Kalashtar.
Where but the Eberron Player's Guide would Kalashtar go?
Except that your reasoning was that Dopplegangers would be in the PHBII so that they would be ready for Eberron. However they weren't mentioned in the GenCon thing like the Gnomes or Shifters(other important Eberron races).
Doppelgangers remain a solid guess. I estimate that at this point, based on the info available, there's about a 70% chance of PH2's "D" being "Doppelganger", and a 30% chance of it being anything else (Deva, Derro, or whatever).
No, you're right, they didn't explicitly say which book Kalashtar would be in, but read between the lines, Ranadiel; they're discussing the Eberron setting and its products, and discussed Kalashtar.
PHBIII, or whichever PHB has psionics introduced, duh. :P
Doppelgangers remain a solid guess. I estimate that at this point, based on the info available, there's about a 70% chance of PH2's "D" being "Doppelganger", and a 30% chance of it being anything else (Deva, Derro, or whatever).
I think you are overstating the odds there. If there are only 5 races(I'd say 75% chance) then the dopplegangers have a 1% chance at best. If there are more then 5 races then I'd give the Doppleganger about a 50% chance. So that gives them a grand total of 13.25%. I think when manual of the planes comes out we'll have a much better idea though. If Aasimar 4.0 are in there, then the odds of dopplegangers will increase. If not, then the odds for them are going to drop like a rock.
Except that your reasoning was that Dopplegangers would be in the PHBII so that they would be ready for Eberron. However they weren't mentioned in the GenCon thing like the Gnomes or Shifters(other important Eberron races).
According to the gencon, info, only gnomes, shifters and half-orcs are mentioned. Considering we already knew about the gnomes and half-orcs, and just told us about shifters, they may be waiting before revealing everything that is to be in the book.
Besides dopplegangers are cunning.. they could just be disguised as something else. :P My reason isn't just that they would be ready for Eberron, but also that they are a good fit for any setting. They're unobtrusive. Goliaths have to be worked into existing settings somehow, dopplegangers could have always been there in ANY setting.
...
...My reason isn't just that they would be ready for Eberron, but also that they are a good fit for any setting. They're unobtrusive. Goliaths have to be worked into existing settings somehow, dopplegangers could have always been there in ANY setting.
This is the main point, yes, coupled with the fact that Doppelgangers were being talked about (for this reason) before 4E even got released. That's why they're in the MM as an NPC race.I think you are overstating the odds there. If there are only 5 races(I'd say 75% chance) then the dopplegangers have a 1% chance at best. If there are more then 5 races then I'd give the Doppleganger about a 50% chance. So that gives them a grand total of 13.25%. I think when manual of the planes comes out we'll have a much better idea though. If Aasimar 4.0 are in there, then the odds of dopplegangers will increase. If not, then the odds for them are going to drop like a rock.
Remember, first of all, that Manual of the Planes won't have any new player race write-ups, (those are reserved for Player's Handbooks and Player's Guides), and second, that an NPC write-up for a monster isn't equal to a player race write-up.
We've been told MotP will have at least one monster with an NPC write-up; since we've already got Githyanki and Githzerai in this format in the MM, and Tieflings and Genasi as player races in the Player's Handbook and Forgotten Realms Player's Guide respectively, dollars to donuts MotP's NPC race is going to be 4E's "Aasimar" (possibly called "Deva"). If this is the case, I imagine the odds of finding "Deva" in PH2 to be much higher.
Overall, I think you're underselling the potential of Doppelgangers in a Player's Handbook. Yes, it was indicated that there'd be a "De" race, but errors happen commonly in these sorts of leaks. (Evidence the "B R vs B B" debacle.) If Doppelgangers aren't PH2, expect to see them in PH3.
My theory is that the "standard format" for campaign setting books is 2 races plus one class. It appears we are getting warforged and kalashtar in teh eberron book so it only makes sense that doppelgangers appear in teh PHB2 along side shifters to round out eberron's racial line-up.
Using tried and true terminology, anyone directing honest inqueries into the nature of a masterpiece like Elfen Lied towards vagueries such as Elfen Laid (nsfw) while feigning ignorance as to the actual topic, should be shot. In the face. With a hammer.
Don't sweat it too much, I'm not remotely interested in either.
My theory is that the "standard format" for campaign setting books is 2 races plus one class. It appears we are getting warforged and kalashtar in teh eberron book so it only makes sense that doppelgangers appear in teh PHB2 along side shifters to round out eberron's racial line-up.
Or we could get Doppleganger and Warforged in Eberron and Kalashtar in PHBIII along with psionic classes.
We've been told MotP will have at least one monster with an NPC write-up; since we've already got Githyanki and Githzerai in this format in the MM, and Tieflings and Genasi as player races in the Player's Handbook and Forgotten Realms Player's Guide respectively, dollars to donuts MotP's NPC race is going to be 4E's "Aasimar" (possibly called "Deva"). If this is the case, I imagine the odds of finding "Deva" in PH2 to be much higher.
Overall, I think you're underselling the potential of Doppelgangers in a Player's Handbook. Yes, it was indicated that there'd be a "De" race, but errors happen commonly in these sorts of leaks. (Evidence the "B R vs B B" debacle.) If Doppelgangers aren't PH2, expect to see them in PH3.
I was under the assumption that the Manual of the Planes race would have a full write up, but I suppose a monster write up is possible.....which decreases the odds to me that Doppleganger will be in the PHBII.
You do realize that the incorrect info in that cited case was corrected within a week(I want to say within a day) of the info coming out? If they had made the same mistake here, then I'm pretty sure they would have corrected themselves in the past two months or so. Do I have to PM the guy who made comment and get him to say that the second letters are correct before you'll accept it?
Besides, I don't see Dopplegangers fiting in thematically with everything else thematically in the book. I can vaguelly see them fitting in whenever they get to the shadow power source, but arcane, divine, and primal? Those really don't fit with Dopplegangers.
if shifters are in the PHB2 are they in the Realms?
Unless the setting say explicitely yes they are in now, I say no; not canon. (But adable if the DM see them as fitting the Realms.)
if shifters are in the PHB2 are they in the Realms?
Ummm maybe? There is really nothing which says that they absolutely have to be included in the Realms or that they absolutely are not in the Realms. I wouldn't count on them being prominent if they are in the Realms. Nor would I expect them to even be mentioned in either of the main books coming out soon. The best I would expect is a Dragon article about how to integrate all the PHB2 races into the Realms, excluding Gnomes and Half Orcs who should both be already present. However that is solely speculation at this point in time.
Unless the setting say explicitely yes they are in now, I say no; not canon. (But adable if the DM see them as fitting the Realms.)
good
(It's a race compactible with the Realms possibly, as a DM, I could surely find a way to slip it in and allow it. Maybe a selunian or malarite link....)
There is of course a difference between '*no mention*' and 'there is no Shifters in the Realms'.
Understood, but they are an eberron creation and along with warforged should stay there
Understood, but they are an eberron creation and along with warforged should stay there
Like how Genasi stayed unique to Planescape? ;)
Like how Genasi stayed unique to Planescape? ;)
Tieflings are a better example. Then again, I'm not really sure if anyone would ever use such an obscure Planescape race.:P
Or we could get Doppleganger and Warforged in Eberron and Kalashtar in PHBIII along with psionic classes.
The fact that they are talking about how they are making kalashtar without psionic classes tells us that they are coming out before the psionic power source. The context of the discussion seemed to be the eberron book they have on the burner right now (the campaing guide and character guide) impling that warforged and kalashtar are the 2 races that will be in the players guide.
if shifters are in the PHB2 are they in the Realms?
Most certainly. They've talked about how the FR books will anticipate the new PHB2 races, like goliaths. While that certainly isnt definitive confirmation for shifters since they arent called out specifically, im willing to bet the farm on it.
Understood, but they are an eberron creation and along with warforged should stay there
Forgotten Realms has always been a kitchen sink setting. They'be mentioned how they are going out of their way to stick in eladrin, dragonborn and the goliaths out of the PHB 2. Shifters are an even easier fit.
The fact that they are talking about how they are making kalashtar without psionic classes tells us that they are coming out before the psionic power source. The context of the discussion seemed to be the eberron book they have on the burner right now (the campaing guide and character guide) impling that warforged and kalashtar are the 2 races that will be in the players guide.
Most certainly. They've talked about how the FR books will anticipate the new PHB2 races, like goliaths. While that certainly isnt definitive confirmation for shifters since they arent called out specifically, im willing to bet the farm on it.
If I'm reading the coverage correctly, and I very well may not be, the question was asked by an audience member, who framed it under the assumption that they would come out before psionics(as part of the Eberron guide). The answer itself is nuetral to when the race will be released.
I believe they have only talked about how they will be incorporating previous edition core items(such as gnomes and druids) into the FRCS, which are already part of the setting. They haven't mentioned, to the best of my knowledge, that they will be directly incorporating any of the previous edition non-core stuff from the PHBII.
If I'm reading the coverage correctly, and I very well may not be, the question was asked by an audience member, who framed it under the assumption that they would come out before psionics(as part of the Eberron guide). The answer itself is nuetral to when the race will be released.
Im sorry, but i dont know how you could not infer from the way both the question and the answer was presented that the kalashtar will be released at a time when psionics is not available. The question assumes that psionics will not be available when the kalashtar is introduced and instead of saying that this assumption is false, the devs seem to play along as if the assumption is correct. It takes reading between the lines, but i think the implication is pretty strong here.
I believe they have only talked about how they will be incorporating previous edition core items(such as gnomes and druids) into the FRCS, which are already part of the setting. They haven't mentioned, to the best of my knowledge, that they will be directly incorporating any of the previous edition non-core stuff from the PHBII.
The thing i read specifically said "races from PHB2" and called out goliaths in particular. Im sorry i dont have link but the FR book should be out soon enough.
* Player's Handbook II: includes gnomes, half-orcs, and shifters. What are the ghostly-looking felines on the cover? James remains coy.
Glad to see the lock in Gnomes be confirmed, and that the Shifters are being made CORE, but it is a sad day indeed when the Half Orc is in the PHB2 instead of the Eberron guide.
The Half Orc should stay out of CORE, and not have the monster ORCs be changed into Klingon or Ugly Humans. We already have the Dragonborn who replaced the Half Orc in the PHB1 and I don't understand the need to bring this monster class back, or at least back so soon.
Glad to see the lock in Gnomes be confirmed, and that the Shifters are being made CORE, but it is a sad day indeed when the Half Orc is in the PHB2 instead of the Eberron guide.
Better yet, they should have put it in a Star Wars book or adventure module where i wouldnt have to spend money on it.
Im sorry, but i dont know how you could not infer from the way both the question and the answer was presented that the kalashtar will be released at a time when psionics is not available. The question assumes that psionics will not be available when the kalashtar is introduced and instead of saying that this assumption is false, the devs seem to play along as if the assumption is correct. It takes reading between the lines, but i think the implication is pretty strong here.
The question assumes that it is true. The answer does not. The answer doesn't even touch whether psionics will be out by the time the race is out. With a couple of minor tweaks I could use basically the same answer to refer to Eladrin and the Arcane power source.
The only implication here is that a fan assumed that kalahtar will be out before psionics and the devs don't want to say one way or another.
The Half Orc should stay out of CORE, and not have the monster ORCs be changed into Klingon or Ugly Humans. We already have the Dragonborn who replaced the Half Orc in the PHB1 and I don't understand the need to bring this monster class back, or at least back so soon.
Thax, people like the half-orc. The half-orc sells. That is really all the motivation they need, and dragonborn are not half orc replacements beyond that they both have str bonuses. You really just need to accept it and move on, you aren't going to stop them from publishing it at this stage of the game.
The Half Orc should stay out of CORE, and not have the monster ORCs be changed into Klingon or Ugly Humans. We already have the Dragonborn who replaced the Half Orc in the PHB1 and I don't understand the need to bring this monster class back, or at least back so soon.
Half-Orcs go back to 1st ed... Long live the Half-Orcs!!!!!!
I don't want to buy anything that has the Half Orc in it, but I am looking forward to the Gnome, Bard, Druid (shifter), Druid (nature, prolly called a Shaman) and even like the Shifter.
So, it really is a disappointment that among the great choices (or the return of what should have been in the first book) is this **** baby race that has already been replaced, making a return.
Popular or not, it could have been just well served in the Eberron book, where the background has a better feeling than the one that will be inferred in the PHB2. At least it would, if the Orc is still the monster we all know him to be.
Whatever happens, as a DM, I will probly ban them once again.
So, it really is a disappointment that among the great choices (or the return of what should have been in the first book) is this **** baby race that has already been replaced, making a return.
Um excuse me, **** baby race????? Did you not see where that was not the case any longer, as a matter of fact they were not even making the issue questionable. To that matter I don't think any D&D book, and I have been playing since AD&D/2E, has outright said the word ****.
And what replacement are you referring to? the dragonborn? that is like saying a Ninja turtle replaces a Klingon! Just dosen't work!
I usually respect your posts and opinion (in aspects other then the half-orc debate), however in this you are being very childish and I can say I couldn't disagree with you more. Did you ever play D&D before 3E or is your entire hatred based off the crap-can the half-orc was there? As a matter of fact that should tell you something, even as the tall glass of suck the 3E half-orc was; people still played it: now that is loyalty!
I don't know, I just don't see any advantage to including this race in any book, fiction, game or supplement.
If the Half Orc was going to be included in the CORE PHB's, it should have been offered in the first one, instead of having the Tiefling or Dragonborn. If it is to be introduced in a later book, it should be in the Eberron guide or some other setting, not a PHB.
Now, it is like Wizards are saying "Oops, we goofed, should have had him in, here he is, right here..."
Thanks for understanding, thaX.
Forgotten Realms has always been a kitchen sink setting. They'be mentioned how they are going out of their way to stick in eladrin, dragonborn and the goliaths out of the PHB 2. Shifters are an even easier fit.
Speaking of kitchen sinks, don't forget that FR was always the setting that had a place for a fictionalized version of every major real-world culture.
Shifters fit into any setting that has Lycanthropes. Actually, Shifters fit into any setting that has wilderness. In fact, maybe just any setting.
Doppelgangers? These guys fit into any setting. They fit into Low-Magic as monsters; they fit into High-Magic as a common race; they fit into any theme from "traditional" fantasy to urban arcana to sci-fi, and especially into anything with political intrigue.
Nobody's gonna say Doppelgangers/Changelings don't belong in FR, are they?
...
I believe they have only talked about how they will be incorporating previous edition core items(such as gnomes and druids) into the FRCS, which are already part of the setting. They haven't mentioned, to the best of my knowledge, that they will be directly incorporating any of the previous edition non-core stuff from [?] the PHBII.
(I'm assuming you mean "into" PH2, and not "from", and this informs the following reply. If this isn't what you meant, I don't understand.)
There's Doppelgangers, Warforged, and Shifters in your Monster Manual, Ranadiel. They've explicitly said that Shifters will be in PH2 as a player race.
From: Gen Con Coverage Aug 14
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080814
Well, it seems that there are 8 classes, and only 5 races in the new PHB. I don't know if this was confirmed before, but, we just need to know the last race. The fifth race.
So, we KNOW and confrimed:
Gnomes
Goliath
Half-Orcs
Shifters
Everyone knows my views - I still say dopplegangers. I know people are expecting that all the races be tied to a powersource, but I think they'll be a source neutral race, similar to humans. Now, if you look at all the races in the back of the monster manual that have player stats, dopplegangers are the only race beginning with 'd'. I know I may be wrong, and I'm fine with that. I just see them as being the most logical race to include for the PHB2, what with the setting neutral vibe they have, along with the prevalence they have in Eberron, a setting coming out in the same year as PHB2, which features 3 other races that have the same prevalence in the setting.
If Planescape turns out to be the 2010 setting I'd expect to see whatever the Aasimar have become in there, just like if Darksun is the 2010, I'd expect to see the Gith races, along with thri-kreen and psionics in PHB3
(I'm assuming you mean "into" PH2, and not "from", and this informs the following reply. If this isn't what you meant, I don't understand.)
There's Doppelgangers, Warforged, and Shifters in your Monster Manual, Ranadiel. They've explicitly said that Shifters will be in PH2 as a player race.
*blinks* I was saying that they have said that the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide(and maybe Player's Guide) has been stated to specifically refer to half-orcs, gnomes, druids, etc(stuff that was core in 3.X), but I don't believe that it has been stated it will mention stuff in the PHBII that was not core in 3.X such as shifters.
Everyone knows my views - I still say dopplegangers. I know people are expecting that all the races be tied to a powersource, but I think they'll be a source neutral race, similar to humans. Now, if you look at all the races in the back of the monster manual that have player stats, dopplegangers are the only race beginning with 'd'. I know I may be wrong, and I'm fine with that. I just see them as being the most logical race to include for the PHB2, what with the setting neutral vibe they have, along with the prevalence they have in Eberron, a setting coming out in the same year as PHB2, which features 3 other races that have the same prevalence in the setting.
If Planescape turns out to be the 2010 setting I'd expect to see whatever the Aasimar have become in there, just like if Darksun is the 2010, I'd expect to see the Gith races, along with thri-kreen and psionics in PHB3
The problem is that Doppleganger doesn't fit the clues we have! I mean if we are going to just start saying that they are wrong because we want the clues to be wrong, then we might as well just say that the first letter remaining is wrong and that the second letter is the one which is right. From that the fifth race is clearly beholderborn. It allows for players to play as one of the most iconic D&D races finally without unbalancing the party!
So Shifter's AREN'T going to be in the Eberron book then... Good news for Kalashtar lovers. I've been kind of hoping that Eberron will have more than just 2 new races in it but i guess that's a vain hope... 4e is being done formulaically and the formula seems to be "2 New Races Per Setting Players Guide"
Anyway. De____. Doesn't need the R any more...
I still a reckon a renamed Aasimar will fill that slot.
Perphas the 5th race is the Deva, the 4th Ed. celestial planetouched (our old friends aasimars). Before I thought in the doppelganger (changeling) but now...(I like deva/aasimar more).
Then warforged in Eberron players guide?
Shifters are confirmed. Aren´t they?
Perphas the 5th race is the Deva, the 4th Ed. celestial planetouched (our old friends aasimars). Before I thought in the doppelganger (changeling) but now...(I like deva/aasimar more).
Then warforged in Eberron players guide?
Shifters are confirmed.
And Warforged being in Eberron's Player Guide is a safe bet. However it hasn't been stated that they definatly will be, so they may put them in Best of Dragon Compilation and put some other race in EPG instead. *shrugs*
There could be something really cool coming out with the last race? Nature book with a De race...hmm? Please no deer anthros but yeah.:angelhide
Catlfolk has a good look, but they need a better background. Does anybody rebember the (wolf-like) lupine race? Now It could be a subrace of shifters.
Perphas the 5th race is the Deva, the 4th Ed. celestial planetouched (our old friends aasimars). Before I thought in the doppelganger (changeling) but now...(I like deva/aasimar more).
Are we not men? WE ARE DEVA!
Are we not men? WE ARE DEVA!
D-E-V-A! We are Deva!
Bel
Why are we still talking about the Half-Orc? It's been confirmed for a month now. If you'd like to debate the merits of the Half-Orc, thaX, kindly start a new thread for it instead of discussing it here; this thread is for discussing things that haven't been confirmed.
Thanks for understanding, thaX.
I am just disappointed that Wizards is going in this direction. I had thought that the Dragonborn was created so that the Half Orc race didn't need to be included. Now we are going to have both. It is redundant. We simply don't need both.
But, as you say, this thread has moved on, so that will be my last post on the lame Half Orc.
So it has been confirmed that there are only 5 races?
I think that the Dormite is being forgotten here...
So it has been confirmed that there are only 5 races?
I think that the Dormite is being forgotten here...
Yes it has been confirmed as of yesterday(I think) that there are only five races. And the Dormite isn't being forgotten, it just doesn't start with a De, so it is being ignored.....not that I know what a Dormite is. Hence another reason why it isn't being forgotten, you can't forget that which you don't know!:P
Are we not men? WE ARE DEVA!
The Gods made man, but they used an angel to do it, celestials in the plan, and I can prove it, I can fly like an angel, smite like an angel, do what celestials do, the Gods made man, but angels applied the glue!
yes I am a Devo fan, but besides that I really hope an aasimar-like race appears in PHB2, as a good counterpoint to the tieflings
Dervish?
I thought that Dervish was a class not a race.
I'll Swallow your Soul!
Encounter * Standard Action
Charisma vs Will
If you hit with I'll Swallow your Soul!, you steal a healing surge from the target. If you have not used your second wind, you may activate it as a free action, but do not get the defense bonus. Alternatively, you may expend the healing surge as temporary Hit points equal to your constitution modifier (minimum 1).
Give me that, and I'll stop going on about the Doppleganger - which, by the way, 'e' is the second letter, just not the second letter from the front - which it was never explicitly said that there was that stipulation. :P
Besides if we are going to start assuming they are lieing to us, then Beholderborn and Dungeonborn have an equal amount of evidence supporting them as Dopplegangers. And also we can toss all confirmed races and any facts regarding them out the window also, since WotC is clearly such a bunch liars. So no gnome nor any shifter(and heck let's push Eberron's expected release year back while we are at it). Instead you'll be getting Beholderborn, Dungeonborn, Half-Orcs, Ettercaps, and Night Hags and you'll like it.
Yes it has been confirmed as of yesterday(I think) that there are only five races. And the Dormite isn't being forgotten, it just doesn't start with a De, so it is being ignored.....not that I know what a Dormite is. Hence another reason why it isn't being forgotten, you can't forget that which you don't know!:P
It's 'dromite', a race first introduced (as far as I know) in the Expanded Psionics Handbook for 3rd Edition. They were an insectile race.
I am just disappointed that Wizards is going in this direction. I had thought that the Dragonborn was created so that the Half Orc race didn't need to be included. Now we are going to have both. It is redundant. We simply don't need both.
But, as you say, this thread has moved on, so that will be my last post on the lame Half Orc.
So it has been confirmed that there are only 5 races?
I think that the Dormite is being forgotten here...
How the hell are Dragonborn and Half Orcs redundant?
As much as I want the doppelganger in the PHB2, I'm not going to delude myself into saying I guarantee it will be. Despite the clues, which can always be false, I still think it will be in there. However, there is one race that I would accept as a worthy substitute, and it begins with a 'De', and that would be Deadite. That's right, they should put those smarmy, free thinking undead from the Evil Dead movies as a playable race in 4e. They can have a special encounter power:
I'll Swallow your Soul!
Encounter * Standard Action
Charisma vs Will
If you hit with I'll Swallow your Soul!, you steal a healing surge from the target. If you have not used your second wind, you may activate it as a free action, but do not get the defense bonus. Alternatively, you may expend the healing surge as temporary Hit points equal to your constitution modifier (minimum 1).
Give me that, and I'll stop going on about the Doppleganger - which, by the way, 'e' is the second letter, just not the second letter from the front - which it was never explicitly said that there was that stipulation. :P
I'm with you, Somoflange, about the Doppelgangers and the Deadites.
I'd actually be a little surprised if, over the life of 4E, we didn't see some kind of undead-themed player race.
It's 'dromite', a race first introduced (as far as I know) in the Expanded Psionics Handbook for 3rd Edition. They were an insectile race.
Oh! I love those guys. I really hope they make it into a future book.
How the hell are Dragonborn and Half Orcs redundant?
Oh in the name of all that is sacred, please don't get him started. He finally agreed to drop it. Most of us are sick and tired of that discussion, and neither side is going to convince the other, so just let it die.
"Player's Handbook II: includes gnomes, half-orcs, and shifters. What are the ghostly-looking felines on the cover? James remains coy."
To me this suggests that the creature on the cover isn't a shifter (or a gnome). Feline would certainly fit with a shifter race, but why remain coy if its a shifter (as many guessed)? I'm going to guess its a Catfolk race with a new name (possibly starting with De).
I can't say I'm overly enthusiastic about cat-people. They tend to be rather affectionate, unintelligent races. If they make them a primal warrior people (as the female on the cover would suggest) then I'd certainly embrace cat-folk in my game. However Catfolk are well known for being poorly created. So at this stage I'm desperately hoping for it to be Dopplegangers ;)
just like if Darksun is the 2010, I'd expect to see the Gith races, along with thri-kreen and psionics in PHB3
I expect it to be Dark Sun with psionics in 2010. Just as PHB2 had a number of races and classes important to Forgotten Realms (Gnomes, Half-orcs, druids) I expect PHB3 to have a number of races and classes important to Eberron (Psionic classes along with Doppleganger as a race if PHB2 doesn't have it). I'm holding out hope for a Planescape to be in a supplemental that can be added into any setting.
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide(and maybe Player's Guide) has been stated to specifically refer to half-orcs, gnomes, druids, etc(stuff that was core in 3.X), but I don't believe that it has been stated it will mention stuff in the PHBII that was not core in 3.X such as shifters.
Its been stated to mention PHB2 races and classes with gnomes, half-orcs and druids given as an example. They've remained silent on whether new races (shifters) and classes will be mentioned in the FRCG.
I had this whole plan for playing a really happy go lucky Shadar'kai who grows flowers and doesn't understand why everyone else of his race is so depressed.
Shadar-kai are an MM playable race. I haven't had the game unbalanced by having a Doppleganger in my 4e game, so I don't see any real reason not to play a Shadar-kai.
they may put them in Best of Dragon Compilation and put some other race in EPG instead. *shrugs*
Actually Warforged are statted as a playtest race so I'd find that doubtful.
How the hell are Dragonborn and Half Orcs redundant?
They are basically the same thing with different names and backgrounds.
going on...
It is my belief that the creation of the Dragonborn was for three things, have the 'dragon' in the D&D game in player form, get a good bruiser race within the first PHB and to get away from the sketchy inferred background of the race (Half Orc) it replaced. It also is a race that is a non-human looking unlike the rest, what the Half-Orc was supposed to be.
If you can't see it, your blind.
You related to Hellmute by any chance?
They are basically the same thing with different names and backgrounds.
In other words, not the same at all.
They are basically the same thing with different names and backgrounds.
You mean like elves, drow, and elds? Or like halfings, gnomes, and dwarves? Or Dragonborn and Warforged and Dwarves? Or do you mean by standing on two legs? When you get down to it everything is basically the same thing with a different name and background.
I expect it to be Dark Sun with psionics in 2010. Just as PHB2 had a number of races and classes important to Forgotten Realms (Gnomes, Half-orcs, druids) I expect PHB3 to have a number of races and classes important to Eberron (Psionic classes along with Doppleganger as a race if PHB2 doesn't have it). I'm holding out hope for a Planescape to be in a supplemental that can be added into any setting.
See, I'm going to disagree with the importance of gnomes, half-orcs and druids being important to Forgotten Realms. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know as much about the realms as I could, but the only place I know of gnomes being is on Lantan (a small island nation?) and the svirfneblin (which will most likely be very different from the gnomes we get in the PHB2. Half-Orcs and druids.. I had the 3.x FRCS, and I don't remember seeing anything in there that made it stand out, even for gnomes. Where as the races and classes (barring the Goliath) I know have an important part. There are barbarians in along the edges of one of the continents, not to mention halfling barbarians that ride large velociraptor like dinosaurs. Druids beat back an invasion in the history of the world, and have varied sects, an half-orcs have an honoured place in the nations where humans and orcs live together - the Jorghun'tal - they are considered good luck, and are one of the races that can bear the mark of finding.
So, coupled with shifters being in PHB2 (which in the past of the realms, barring individual campaigns), have not existed, it seems that the PHB2 seems to be giving relatively setting neutral races, they can work for any setting, but have a more necessary part in Eberron a setting that is coming out later that year.
I know I keep going on about dopplegangers, but another reason I believe they'll be in there is WotC still wants people that are holding out with 3.5 to convert to 4e. Those running eberron campaigns that don't get all the races or the feeling may not convert, so if a group has a Kalashtar, a doppelganger and a shifter in the party, if they don't get the rules to convert they may not switch over to 4e. It seems logical that Kalashtar and Warforged will be in the Eberron players book, but the other races as I said can easily be added to any setting without a major shake up, though Goliaths do tend to stand out a bit and they are quite popular I hear, so it is a reasonable idea to add the all the races in that fit. No I can't count for the 'e' being the second letter, but there seems to me to be too much logic and a patter about what is going in the the PHB2, and the setting that is coming out in 2009 for me to dismiss it. One little detail against, such as the second letter, compared to the rest of what I think is a very logical reason for leads me to the hypothesis that Dopplegangers are in the PHB2. Now people say that dopplegangers don't have any correlation to the powersources in PHB2, well, I offer this - neither do Goliaths. Especially, if what I heard is true - that Goliaths killed(ate) the half-giant and took their stuff. Shouldn't they then have more of a psionic bent, y'know with that big crystal axe on the cover as well? But they are in PHB2 so maybe, just maybe we can have some races that don't correlate to a specific powersource, like.. humans.
Now if I am wrong, then I'm wrong. No big deal. I don't have a vested interest. I won't go around saying that adding this race is stupid because I don't like it (sorry thaX), I'll accept it. The new race may be really cool. Though, if they Aasimar is renamed Deva it's unfortunate.. I mean how many people are going to put D-E-V-O on there character sheet? Especially if you can find whips in the Adventurer's Vault. What about all the females of the race that will be miss-labeled a Diva? Female, formerly known as Aasimar, will constantly be accused of being prima-donnas then. How unfortunate. :P
"Player's Handbook II: includes gnomes, half-orcs, and shifters. What are the ghostly-looking felines on the cover? James remains coy."
To me this suggests that the creature on the cover isn't a shifter (or a gnome). Feline would certainly fit with a shifter race, but why remain coy if its a shifter (as many guessed)? I'm going to guess its a Catfolk race with a new name (possibly starting with De).
I think the felines being referred to are the glowing animals on either side of the smaller character, my guess is this is a shifter shaman with two spirit animals.
Bel
To me this suggests that the creature on the cover isn't a shifter (or a gnome). Feline would certainly fit with a shifter race, but why remain coy if its a shifter (as many guessed)? I'm going to guess its a Catfolk race with a new name (possibly starting with De).
I can't say I'm overly enthusiastic about cat-people. They tend to be rather affectionate, unintelligent races. If they make them a primal warrior people (as the female on the cover would suggest) then I'd certainly embrace cat-folk in my game. However Catfolk are well known for being poorly created. So at this stage I'm desperately hoping for it to be Dopplegangers ;)
Have you actually looked at the cover? The cats are sort of transparent.....I don't think they are making a ghost cat race. Besides, that would ruin the symetry between the PHBI and PHBII covers of having a melee oriented class and a caster on the cover if there were two naked cat people on the cover(as opposed to two spiritual cats summoned by the person with a wand).
Its been stated to mention PHB2 races and classes with gnomes, half-orcs and druids given as an example. They've remained silent on whether new races (shifters) and classes will be mentioned in the FRCG.
.....Isn't that exactly what I said only reworded a little?
Actually Warforged are statted as a playtest race so I'd find that doubtful.
*eyetwitch* The article is called "Playing a Warforged". It does not say preview, playtest, or reference any book in which the warforged will be later appearing in later. For comparison the artificer article has playtest in the title, describes what a playtest article is, and mentions the artificer is scheduled for the Eberron Player's Guide.
They are basically the same thing with different names and backgrounds.going on...It is my belief that the creation of the Dragonborn was for three things, have the 'dragon' in the D&D game in player form, get a good bruiser race within the first PHB and to get away from the sketchy inferred background of the race (Half Orc) it replaced. It also is a race that is a non-human looking unlike the rest, what the Half-Orc was supposed to be.
If you wanna talk about why or why not Half-Orcs, go start another thread.
As I am very tired with this argument, I am simply going to retort with Dungeonborn, and look who gave the second letters so I can try to bug him into posting here so we can finally end this stupid argument.
It was Mike Mearls, IIRC. I'd be happy if you brought him down here; if he confirms the "second letter = E" statement, then I'll believe you.
Until then, I'm certain that Doppelgangers are an excellent guess. I'll also certain that if Doppelgangers aren't in PH2, they'll be in PH3 (if not the EPG).
Doppelgangers are too ideal a PC race not to get the full treatment.
Then, if and when Dark Sun comes around, WotC can make the call of creating a new Half-Giant race or adding a few feat-fueled powers and saying that in Athas they are known as "Half-Giants."
I'm fine with Goliath subsuming Half-Giant for the time being. Aside from the bits of flavor that were added in all the "Races of" books that could easily be scrapped for setting differences, I think they fit the generic mold of "big race that's like playing a giant, except, y'know, playable" better than trying to un-setting the Dark Sun Half-Giant.
Then, if and when Dark Sun comes around, WotC can make the call of creating a new Half-Giant race or adding a few feat-fueled powers and saying that in Athas they are known as "Half-Giants."
This seems likely, especially the feat idea. FR has already confirmed that its abundant subraces will be distinguished from their respective "base races" by racial feats; the same tactic should work in other settings as well.
As far as renaming in each setting, this seems likely too. For example, in FR, I expect Eladrin will be called "Sun Elves", and in Eberron, I expect Doppelgangers to be called "Changelings". This solution is neat and complete, without bloating the rules.
It was Mike Mearls, IIRC. I'd be happy if you brought him down here; if he confirms the "second letter = E" statement, then I'll believe you.
Until then, I'm certain that Doppelgangers are an excellent guess. I'll also certain that if Doppelgangers aren't in PH2, they'll be in PH3 (if not the EPG).
Doppelgangers are too ideal a PC race not to get the full treatment.
Actually I think it was Andy Collins.....well it was him at least since that is who I PMed. If I'm wrong though it is GamerZer0's fault for mislableing the youtube video(as I just skipped to the middle of the thing).
Actually I think it was Andy Collins.....well it was him at least since that is who I PMed. If I'm wrong though it is GamerZer0's fault for mislableing the youtube video(as I just skipped to the middle of the thing).
I'm watching right now, and you're right, it's not Mike Mearls. (He gave the first letters for the classes, but not the races.)
That podcast did say that it was James Wyatt who'd given the races, although I haven't found that podcast yet. I'm watching the Andy Collins one ATM.
EDIT: Yes, it apparently was Andy Collins who went through the second letters of each race. (James Wyatt offered the first letter for each race.)
As for other races, I'm guessing that the power sources detailed in PH3 will be psionic, ki(no way they're going to delay the monk much longer), and shadow. Therefore, the races may have flavor pointing toward those races.
I'm going to guess shadar-kai, githzerai/githyanki, and some psionic-flavored races (dromites or elan) will be in the mix. Of course, it may still be a bit too early to speculate on that, since PH3 probably won't be coming out until late 2009/early 2010 anyway.
I'm going to guess that doppelgangers will be in PH3 (especially since Eberron will be out by then).
As for other races, I'm guessing that the power sources detailed in PH3 will be psionic, ki(no way they're going to delay the monk much longer), and shadow. Therefore, the races may have flavor pointing toward those races.
I'm going to guess shadar-kai, githzerai/githyanki, and some psionic-flavored races (dromites or elan) will be in the mix. Of course, it may still be a bit too early to speculate on that, since PH3 probably won't be coming out until late 2009/early 2010 anyway.
lol You might be right about all of this; who knows? It's a little early to confirm or deny most of what you're suggesting, except that it's possible there won't be room for three brand new power sources in that book. (We don't know that there won't be extra Primal classes in PH2, for example.)
I think the felines being referred to are the glowing animals on either side of the smaller character, my guess is this is a shifter shaman with two spirit animals.
Oh, right. Duh! I blame being sick ;)
Well yeah, they're obviously spirits conjured up by the shaman so why remain coy?
.....Isn't that exactly what I said only reworded a little?
You seemed to place more emphasis on the examples rather then what was said. The fact they've said PHB2 races will be detailed in the FRCG suggests to me that they'll be explaining all of the new races.
*eyetwitch* The article is called "Playing a Warforged". It does not say preview, playtest, or reference any book in which the warforged will be later appearing in later. For comparison the artificer article has playtest in the title, describes what a playtest article is, and mentions the artificer is scheduled for the Eberron Player's Guide.
You know I could have sworn that Warforged were a playtest race. But you're right, I'm wrong. And so this means its quite possible Warforged won't be in the PGtE. It would certainly help prove that everything in Dragon is valid. Which means PGtE could easily contain Kalashtar and Dopplegangers.
Bel
If you wanna talk about why or why not Half-Orcs, go start another thread.
Ok Dragonborn = Half Orcs
I'm certain that Doppelgangers are an excellent guess. I'll also certain that if Doppelgangers aren't in PH2, they'll be in PH3 (if not the EPG).
Doppelgangers are too ideal a PC race not to get the full treatment.
Really, I would rather see Dromites.
As I am very tired with this argument, I am simply going to retort with Dungeonborn, and look who gave the second letters so I can try to bug him into posting here so we can finally end this stupid argument.
Oh come on now.. Dungeonborn has an 'e' right in the centre.. at least doppleganger has an 'e' in the second spot.. albeit second from the back. But second none the less. ;)
I'll agree that I've gone on too much about this. I'm sorry. My position stands, but I am sorry for inundating everyone with my views. I don't want to come off like someone else who is arguing about something *cough*half-orc*cough*:P
If WotC would just hurry up and tell us the 5th race we can all move on with our lives.
Oh come on now.. Dungeonborn has an 'e' right in the centre.. at least doppleganger has an 'e' in the second spot.. albeit second from the back. But second none the less. ;)
I'll agree that I've gone on too much about this. I'm sorry. My position stands, but I am sorry for inundating everyone with my views. I don't want to come off like someone else who is arguing about something *cough*half-orc*cough*:P
...
Don't worry, man; you know I'm with you! Doppelganger solidarity!
The best bet is to carefully study the play reports from the staff as they will playtest new races and classes. I remember a shifter ranger in one and I thought a doppleganger wizard in another, but can't locate them at present.
Bel
Remember when we knew all but one of the races in PHB I? Ah, the speculation then.
The best bet is to carefully study the play reports from the staff as they will playtest new races and classes. I remember a shifter ranger in one and I thought a doppleganger wizard in another, but can't locate them at present.
Bel
Assuming that there was a doppleganger mentioned in one, I don't pay attention to them so I wouldn't know, that doesn't mean it is for the PHBII. It could be for the Eberron Player's Guide. To save time this theory would go, Warforged for the Best of Dragon Book Volume 1(w/e they decide to call it); Doppleganger and Kalashtar(sp) for Eberron Player's Guide. We would then have all the Eberron races covered, and not have to think that Andy Collins is a liar. Best of all worlds!
Assuming that there was a doppleganger mentioned in one, I don't pay attention to them so I wouldn't know, that doesn't mean it is for the PHBII. It could be for the Eberron Player's Guide. To save time this theory would go, Warforged for the Best of Dragon Book Volume 1(w/e they decide to call it); Doppleganger and Kalashtar(sp) for Eberron Player's Guide. We would then have all the Eberron races covered, and not have to think that Andy Collins is a liar. Best of all worlds!
I simply meant that people were guessing everything for the eighth race from kobolds to saurials, half-orcs to gnolls and Dragonborn took most of us by surprise. Of course, we had no clues to help either.
With a list of already confirmed races from all sources being;
PHB I
Dragonborn
Dwarf
Eladrin
Elf
Half-Elf
Halfling
Human
Teifling
PHB II
Gnome
Goliath
Half-Orc
Shifter
???????
FRPG
Drow
Genasi
Manual of the Planes
???????
What is missing from the list? What is needed?
Think of it as a math problem, don't ask me though, I suck at math.
Bel
I simply meant that people were guessing everything for the eighth race from kobolds to saurials, half-orcs to gnolls and Dragonborn took most of us by surprise. Of course, we had no clues to help either.
With a list of already confirmed races from all sources being;
PHB I
Dragonborn
Dwarf
Eladrin
Elf
Half-Elf
Halfling
Human
Teifling
PHB II
Gnome
Goliath
Half-Orc
Shifter
???????
FRPG
Drow
Genasi
EPG
Warforged
???????
Manual of the Planes
???????
At least, I thnk Warforged are confirmed, what is missing from the list? What is needed?
Think of it as a math problem, don't ask me though, I suck at math.
Bel
Warforged are not confirmed for the Eberron Player's Guide.....which I implied in the post you quoted. And about the only thing you are missing are the MM races(oh and you forgot to bold Manual of the Planes).
Edit: Also we don't know how many races will be in the Eberron Player's Guide. The assumption of two could be made from there being two in FRPG, but there 8 races in PHBI and only 5 in PHBII so they might change things up.
what about deva, instead of doppleganger, as a playable aasimar-equivalent race?
That was what I was thinking.
The name is available and they were supposed to be looking at including some sort of "anti-tiefling". Even though they said they were getting away from forced symmetry.
I think Deva would be a great choice. I never did like the name aasimar, and the name Deva has deeper roots in the game, anyway.
Warforged are not confirmed for the Eberron Player's Guide.....which I implied in the post you quoted. And about the only thing you are missing are the MM races (oh and you forgot to bold Manual of the Planes).
Warforged may not be confirmed, but they are likely, since they make no sense as a CORE race.
The MM races are not full write ups, but have playable stats that serve to be used until the real thing comes out. He didn't forget them. j
Warforged may not be confirmed, but they are likely, since they make no sense as a CORE race.
The MM races are not full write ups, but have playable stats that serve to be used until the real thing comes out. He didn't forget them. j
The thing though is that the Warforged don't need anything else printed about them. They already have a PC write up that is more detailed then what 7 of the PHB races have(Dragonborn having a tiny bit more on then them if I'm not mistaken). They already are a core race(gotta love everything is core even Dragon). All there really is to do is print up the best of Dragon book and include the Warforged in there for people who don't like online Dragon.
And he just said all confirmed races, not all races with full PC write ups.
The thing though is that the Warforged don't need anything else printed about them. They already have a PC write up that is more detailed then what 7 of the PHB races have(Dragonborn having a tiny bit more on then them if I'm not mistaken). They already are a core race(gotta love everything is core even Dragon). All there really is to do is print up the best of Dragon book and include the Warforged in there for people who don't like online Dragon.
And he just said all confirmed races, not all races with full PC write ups.
Dragon and Dungeon are extra material, optional. The write up will be reprinted in Eberron in the likely scenario, with errata and fixes.
Having these magazines in a subscription model by themselves is an improvement to the overpriced DDi, though still to much for what you get. If they were as they was in the physical form it might soften the blow, but right now...
Dragon and Dungeon are extra material, optional.
Everything is optional beyond the first 3 books.
Everything is optional beyond the first 3 books.
And I would assume that even some things in the first three books are also optional: like races for example, yes?
And I would assume that even some things in the first three books are also optional: like races for example, yes?
If you want to get extremely specific, then yes definitely. IMO the only non-optional things are the DMG and PHB Chapters 1, 2, 5, (some of 6, the most basic of equipment), 8 and 9. Any MM will do.
And I would assume that even some things in the first three books are also optional: like races for example, yes?
Technically, maybe, but especially if you like arguing with your players.
Technically, maybe, but especially if you like arguing with your players.
This is easily gotten around by telling your players up front what you will allow regarding new content. I warned my players that no books would be allowed in my game until I had looked it over and approved it. So I could have easily banned some or all of the PHB 1 races and classes.
This is easily gotten around by telling your players up front what you will allow regarding new content. I warned my players that no books would be allowed in my game until I had looked it over and approved it. So I could have easily banned some or all of the PHB 1 races and classes.
If you banned all of the PH1 races and classes, you probably wouldn't be playing 4E right now. :P
I agree with you in principle, but in practice I've found that, the more a DM restricts core materials, the more volatile the situation with players can get. In my experience, it's wiser to allow everything, as long as everything gets discussed with the DM beforehand.
we know there will be an aasamir race, perhaps the Manuel of the Planes
Yes. We also know that it won't be called "Aasimar" anymore, and it's widely believed that the "race" appearing in Manual of Planes won't be written up as a player race, but instead as an NPC race à la the back section of the Monster Manual.
Based on the clues and what we know, the 5th race has to start with a "De", right?
Yes. This is most of what we've been talking about for the past eight pages.
If you banned all of the PH1 races and classes, you probably wouldn't be playing 4E right now. :P
I agree with you in principle, but in practice I've found that, the more a DM restricts core materials, the more volatile the situation with players can get. In my experience, it's wiser to allow everything, as long as everything gets discussed with the DM beforehand.
You could just play a party full of orcish artificers, and therefore not use any of the PHB classes or races.:D
Yes. We also know that it won't be called "Aasimar" anymore, and it's widely believed that the "race" appearing in Manual of Planes won't be written up as a player race, but instead as an NPC race à la the back section of the Monster Manual.
I don't know if I would say "widely believed". I've barely seen anyone talking about it, and I've only seen the idea that it is an NPC race brought up once that I can recall and before that I had just assumed it would be have a full write up.
Warforged and Shifters are in a core book (the Monster Manual).
Warforged and Shifters are core races.
All non-setting specific material is core.
Warforged and Shifters are in a core book (the Monster Manual).
Warforged and Shifters are core races.
yuck
so do enlighten me, what races are confirmed so far/
I lost track after
goliath
gnome
and shifter??
yuck
Core =/= enforced-forced. You take or you leave bits.
ummm reading this much is going to be a pain.....
so do enlighten me, what races are confirmed so far/
I lost track after
goliath
gnome
and shifter??
Goliath, Gnome, Shifter, and Half-Orc. We're expecting one more.
ummm reading this much is going to be a pain.....
so do enlighten me, what races are confirmed so far/
I lost track after
goliath
gnome
and shifter??
[shameless plug for my thread] You can always check this thread. I try to keep the first post updated to have all of the confirmed information, and I look around for any new info at least once a day.[/shameless plug for my thread]
Goliath, Gnome, Shifter, and Half-Orc. We're expecting one more.
You mean that we know there is one more and that it starts with a De.:P
[shameless plug for my thread]
great thread. thanks for the effort.
All non-setting specific material is core.
Warforged and Shifters are in a core book (the Monster Manual).
Warforged and Shifters are core monsters.
Fixed.
It's not that dopplegangers wouldn't work as a race. I think they'd be a fine inclusion in the PHB2. But it looks like they're going to be to the Eberron setting what drow are to Forgotten Realms - a monster race with universal utility, but a special significance in their setting. The doppleganger must appear as a full race prior to, or in, the Eberron Player's Guide. Since it's very unlikely that it will show up in Manual of the Planes, that leaves two places. Unless Andy Collins made a mistake when he said 'e' was a second letter, that place will be the EPG.
So what will the De- race be? Deva sounds good. It'd better not be Derro, or my ears will steam literally - not metaphorically. However, if the 'good tiefling' race is being reserved for MoP, then De- could be a new race. Since WotC have been quite fond of including new classes and races in their 4e products, this possibility is very much in the ballpark.
...
You mean that we know there is one more and that it starts with a De.:P
...Yes. :P
Based on the clues and what we know, the 5th race has to start with a "De", right?
Right. Unless you disregard the clues, in which case I'm guessing the final race is Aasimar
You could just play a party full of orcish artificers, and therefore not use any of the PHB classes or races.:D
Why not play Warforged Artificers in the Scales of War Campaign? Don't even need the MM then :P
All non-setting specific material is core.
Everything is core, everything is optional.
Fixed.
No you didn't fix it. They are core races. Warforged is in Dragon so its core. Shifter is in PHB2 so its core.
After some thought, I've reached the following conclusion on the D-race, which I'll hold till future information is released. I believe that it will not be the doppleganger, and that it'll start with De.
It's not that dopplegangers wouldn't work as a race. I think they'd be a fine inclusion in the PHB2. But it looks like they're going to be to the Eberron setting what drow are to Forgotten Realms - a monster race with universal utility, but a special significance in their setting. The doppleganger must appear as a full race prior to, or in, the Eberron Player's Guide. Since it's very unlikely that it will show up in Manual of the Planes, that leaves two places. Unless Andy Collins made a mistake when he said 'e' was a second letter, that place will be the EPG.
So what will the De- race be? Deva sounds good. It'd better not be Derro, or my ears will steam literally - not metaphorically. However, if the 'good tiefling' race is being reserved for MoP, then De- could be a new race. Since WotC have been quite fond of including new classes and races in their 4e products, this possibility is very much in the ballpark.
Oh an update on the whole player race situation. Apparently some people have gotten the FRPG early(curse you Amazon!) and have mentioned that Aasimar have been renamed, wait of it........Devas! I'd say that the odds that the fifth race is now Devas has just jumped up quite a bit.
Awww, and here I was going to suggest that the D-race where going to be Daleks.
Crap in a hat, I can't believe that's the name they're gonna go for that race. Aasimar's used to be one of my favorite races. There's no way in hell I'm gonna play one, now, if they're called Devas. I'd rather play an Assimar (yes, that was intentional).
Whats so bad about Devas? I think it's more fitting for the race than Aasimar.
what about deva, instead of doppleganger, as a playable aasimar-equivalent race?
08-02-08, 02:23 PM
Whats so bad about Devas? I think it's more fitting for the race than Aasimar.
Deva looks and sounds like Diva. And when people say Diva, this is what people think of.
They were leaning towards Celestial in Races & Classes. That sounds good and means the same thing. Personally, I would've liked it if they'd stuck with that.
Deva looks and sounds like Diva. And when people say Diva, this is what people think of.
They were leaning towards Celestial in Races & Classes. That sounds good and means the same thing. Personally, I would've liked it if they'd stuck with that.
Wow, you have a lot of wallpapers. :P
Is celestial being used for anything else? A type maybe? Maybe it's just being saved as a general adjective. Actually, "celestial" as a PC race would sound a bit high and mighty, no?
Wow, you have a lot of wallpapers. :P
Damn you and the horse you rode in on. :P
Is celestial being used for anything else? A type maybe? Maybe it's just being saved as a general adjective.
A quick scan of the MM doesn't reveal that to be the case. Angels, for instance, are listed as Immortals. So nope, not a type or anything of the sort. And aside from angels being described as manifestations of celestial vocations, it's a name that's not really being used save by the Celestial Charger.
Actually, "celestial" as a PC race would sound a bit high and mighty, no?
And thus, it's highly appropriate for the Aasimar race. :D
Deva looks and sounds like Diva.
Nope. It's pronounced "dey-vuh." It can't be helped that people confuse an angelic being from Buddhist and Hindu folklore with a prominent female singer. I'm sure people can find all kinds of other things to associate the word with, too.
At least devas have been around in D&D longer than "celestials" and "tieflings" have been.
Cheers,
Cam
Nope. It's pronounced "dey-vuh." It can't be helped that people confuse an angelic being from Buddhist and Hindu folklore with a prominent female singer. I'm sure people can find all kinds of other things to associate the word with, too.
That one sticks out pretty obviously, though. "Dey-vuh" still sounds a whole lot like "Diva" and Deva is easily misspelled as Diva. Add to that that most people will pronounce it Diva, and it's not looking good for Aasimar players.
At least devas have been around in D&D longer than "celestials" and "tieflings" have been.
Cheers,
Cam
A bad name is a bad name, regardless of how long it's been around. Just pointing out that this is a racial name that's leaving Aasimar players open to mockery. It's equivalent of naming your kid Gaylord. You're just begging for him to get his ass kicked in the playground. And personally, as a longtime fan of the Aasimar race, I'd like to avoid that particular beating.
So now Aasimar are Devas. I can live with that. I still call eladrin high elves, so I can just call devas aasimar.
A bad name is a bad name, regardless of how long it's been around. Just pointing out that this is a racial name that's leaving Aasimar players open to mockery.
You weren't being mocked enough already?
Come on. Aasimar? It has "arse" or "ass" in there, depending on your pronunciation. I think you were doomed from the start, mate. Spread the word about the right way to say "deva" and you should recover handily from this minor upset.
Cheers,
Cam
That one sticks out pretty obviously, though. "Dey-vuh" still sounds a whole lot like "Diva" and Deva is easily misspelled as Diva. Add to that that most people will pronounce it Diva, and it's not looking good for Aasimar players.
A correctly pronounced Deva sounds a hell of a lot better than a correctly pronounced aasimar, in my opinion.
I'm just saying, calling them Celestial would've been fine and dandy, and spared people favoring that race from the inevitable mockery that comes from playing a race called Aasimar or Deva. Remember, Aasimar and Deva aren't the only two possible choices in existence, here. When two of the choices leave you open to ridicule, how about going with a third or fourth choice that doesn't?
The moment I wake up
Before I put on my makeup
I say a little pray for you
While combing my hair now,
And wondering what dress to wear now,
I say a little prayer for you
Forever, and ever, you'll stay in my heart
and I will love you
Forever, and ever, we never will part
Oh, how I love you
Together, forever, that's how it must be
To live without you
Would only meen heartbreak for me.
Truth be told, I'd rather be called an Assmear then get called a Diva, and have someone bust out with "say a little prayer for you" every time my Paladin uses a power (A Divine Deva? You can't tell me that's not begging to be mocked. "I'm a Deva, and honey, I'm DIVINE!"). :P
I'm just saying, calling them Celestial would've been fine and dandy, and spared people favoring that race from the inevitable mockery that comes from playing a race called Aasimar or Deva. Remember, Aasimar and Deva aren't the only two possible choices in existence, here. When two of the choices leave you open to ridicule, how about going with a third or fourth choice that doesn't?
Or how about you look at the players and say, "Guys, you're making this game less fun for me with your intentional mispronunciation of my character's species. It's old, it's tired, and I would appreciate it if you'd stop."
This is not a problem with the race's nomenclature. It's a problem with your fellow players.
This is not a problem with the race's nomenclature. It's a problem with your fellow players.
qft
"No you didn't fix it. They are core races. Warforged is in Dragon so its core. Shifter is in PHB2 so its core.
Core player races are in the PHB, the PHB2 isn't out yet, and the player stats in the MM are optional material that DM's may introduce or allow players to use.
I did fix it, and you forgot to mention that Gnomes are also going to be in the PHB2.
Core by example don't means 'obligatory'. By example, an hypothetic Elemental power source book and it's material may be used (with suggestions how to fit that in) in an official setting, but not forced.
It sounds like how Eberron work(ed).
there is multiple meanings and layers to the word 'Core'.
Core by example don't means 'obligatory'. By example, an hypothetic Elemental power source book and it's material may be used (with suggestions how to fit that in) in an official setting, but not forced.
It sounds like how Eberron work(ed).
True. Core means 'not campaign-specific material'. Core does not mean 'required' (and never did). My homebrew world throws out the divine power source, so the Cleric and Paladin are out. They're core, but they ain't there.
Awww, and here I was going to suggest that the D-race where going to be Daleks.
well that will never happen not nearly cool enough for kids today
Or how about you look at the players and say, "Guys, you're making this game less fun for me with your intentional mispronunciation of my character's species. It's old, it's tired, and I would appreciate it if you'd stop."
This is not a problem with the race's nomenclature. It's a problem with your fellow players.
Madam, clearly you have never met a male of the species, as such a statement would only encourage further ridicule and mockery. :P Ah well. At least, unlike 2E, Humans are no longer a mediocre choice in comparison so I'll just stick to them.
Seriously, though. If the problem wasn't with the name, then why change it in the first place? Why not leave it as Aasimar? They're changing it because it sounds to much like Ass-imar, and WotC didn't like that. So clearly the name does matter. I'm just pointing out that, likewise, Deva sounds to much like Diva, and as such, isn't exactly much of an improvement. So seeing as how the name does matter, why not choose a name which doesn't conjure images of Diana Ross when you announce your character race?
Madam, clearly you have never met a male of the species, as such a statement would only encourage further ridicule and mockery. :P Ah well. At least, unlike 2E, Humans are no longer a mediocre choice in comparison so I'll just stick to them.
Seriously, though. If the problem wasn't with the name, then why change it in the first place? Why not leave it as Aasimar? They're changing it because it sounds to much like Ass-imar, and WotC didn't like that. So clearly the name does matter. I'm just pointing out that, likewise, Deva sounds to much like Diva, and as such, isn't exactly much of an improvement. So seeing as how the name does matter, why not choose a name which doesn't conjure images of Diana Ross when you announce your character race?
I'd have to agree with you except check out this thread.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1076264
There is a new winged player race. I can only think of a few de inspired angel names: deva, demigod, deityborn, etc.
Madam, clearly you have never met a male of the species, as such a statement would only encourage further ridicule and mockery. :P Ah well. At least, unlike 2E, Humans are no longer a mediocre choice in comparison so I'll just stick to them.
Seriously, though. If the problem wasn't with the name, then why change it in the first place? Why not leave it as Aasimar? They're changing it because it sounds to much like Ass-imar, and WotC didn't like that. So clearly the name does matter. I'm just pointing out that, likewise, Deva sounds to much like Diva, and as such, isn't exactly much of an improvement. So seeing as how the name does matter, why not choose a name which doesn't conjure images of Diana Ross when you announce your character race?
Because you seem to be the only person confusing the words Deva and Diva?
...or I'm not. And I very much doubt I am. :P
Seriously, though. The only two choices aren't Aasimar and Deva, so why be limited to them? And if the nomenclature doesn't matter at all, why change the name Aasimar to begin with? You really think I'm the only person who's going to make that connection? I very much doubt that, when the devs came up with the name Aasimar, that they thought people would refer to it as the Assimar. It probably never entered their minds. Yet here we are, years later, and that's the case. I'm just throwing up a warning flair, here.
or Demigod
or Demogorgonborn
or Demogorgonborn
Have you read that thread I linked earlier. It's Greg Bilsland's Blog. It got photos and hints of some new phb II classes and more importantly one of the new winged and very angelic looking races. There are pictures of the minis they used which are very closely representative of what they are supposed to be.
The problem with a demogorgon demon thing is that the new race shown is very angellic looking.
In that case, I must be the most imaginative person in the whole wide world!
...or I'm not. And I very much doubt I am. :P
Seriously, though. The only two choices aren't Aasimar and Deva, so why be limited to them? And if the nomenclature doesn't matter at all, why change the name Aasimar to begin with? You really think I'm the only person who's going to make that connection? I very much doubt that, when the devs came up with the name Aasimar, that they thought people would refer to it as the Assimar. It probably never entered their minds. Yet here we are, years later, and that's the case. I'm just throwing up a warning flair, here.
Why do you think you know why they changed the name?
I'd imagine the reason was much simpler, and had nothing to do with Aasimar lending itself to ridicule via names like "Ass-smear." It's simply that "Aasimar" does not roll off the tongue very well. "Deva" does.
That's it.
Have you read that thread I linked earlier. It's Greg Bilsland's Blog. It got photos and hints of some new phb II classes and more importantly one of the new winged and very angelic looking races. There are pictures of the minis they used which are very closely representative of what they are supposed to be.
The problem with a demogorgon demon thing is that the new race shown is very angellic looking.
You are skipping over the part where it is mentioned that not every race on the board is from PHBII, so the angel could be a MMII race or something that has just entered development for either Eberron or PHBIII.
Two A's does not suggest to me the "Ar" sound of Arse or the "Ah" sound of Ass... it suggests and elongated Aaah sound... which then lends itself to the s being pronounced slightly closer (not not entirely like) a z.
And the end is a bloody A! Not an "ea", "ee" or even an "i"... it ends in "ar" it sounds like "are" "R" "R!" RRRRRR!R!RRKLKL ineedtohavealiedown
The only reason to pronounce it "Ass" is if you're purposefully looking for something puerile to laugh at... like the people who still laugh at the name of the Wii... sure it was funny at first, that passed eventually... and to those people i applaud your ability to find humour in life where you can!
You are skipping over the part where it is mentioned that not every race on the board is from PHBII, so the angel could be a MMII race or something that has just entered development for either Eberron or PHBIII.
Oops. It could even be from Manual of the Planes. Which would make more sense. Good Catch.
As it, 'Sure the the tiefling is cool, but I'm Awesomer!' (Aasimar)
Why do you think you know why they changed the name?
I'd imagine the reason was much simpler, and had nothing to do with Aasimar lending itself to ridicule via names like "Ass-smear." It's simply that "Aasimar" does not roll off the tongue very well. "Deva" does.
That's it.
Because I read Races & Classes. Check out what Rob Heinsoo had to say on it.
And on top of things, they have misspelled it that way before in published products.
Because I read Races & Classes. Check out what Rob Heinsoo had to say on it.
And on top of things, they have misspelled it that way before in published products.
Now that pic is funny. The look of indignant defeat on the assimar is priceless.
Like I said, I never saw it like that, but I can certainly see how people can, but I don't think Deva is a better choice - for the female singer connotation. It seems that the Diva Assimar are doomed to have a bad name no matter what.
Have you read that thread I linked earlier. It's Greg Bilsland's Blog. It got photos and hints of some new phb II classes and more importantly one of the new winged and very angelic looking races. There are pictures of the minis they used which are very closely representative of what they are supposed to be.
The problem with a demogorgon demon thing is that the new race shown is very angellic looking.
You do realize I was joking yes? Who in their right mind would come up with demogorgonborn name
I wish Kobolds were a core player race :p
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1076264[/url]
There is a new winged player race. I can only think of a few de inspired angel names: deva, demigod, deityborn, etc.
The "angel" seems to be the old mini representing the "Protectar".
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mg/20040617a
Oh an update on the whole player race situation. Apparently some people have gotten the FRPG early(curse you Amazon!) and have mentioned that Aasimar have been renamed, wait of it........Devas! I'd say that the odds that the fifth race is now Devas has just jumped up quite a bit.
Man that blows. Dopplegangers are so so so much more interesting. Well, hopefully they'll get a Dragon article like the Warforged and Gnolls soon.
Man that blows. Dopplegangers are so so so much more interesting. Well, hopefully they'll get a Dragon article like the Warforged and Gnolls soon.
Personally I wouldn't count on it. My personal expectation is Doppleganger and Kalas.....w/e in the Eberron Players Guide and Warforged will be exclusive to the Dragon Annual 2009. It just personally makes the most sense with what info we have to work with at the moment.
Personally I wouldn't count on it. My personal expectation is Doppleganger and Kalas.....w/e in the Eberron Players Guide and Warforged will be exclusive to the Dragon Annual 2009. It just personally makes the most sense with what info we have to work with at the moment.
See, I don't think that makes sense at all concerning warforged. Considering the heavy themes in Eberron concerning them and their creation, leaving them out of the campaign setting would be silly at best, and down right stupid at worst.
Personally I wouldn't count on it. My personal expectation is Doppleganger and Kalas.....w/e in the Eberron Players Guide and Warforged will be exclusive to the Dragon Annual 2009. It just personally makes the most sense with what info we have to work with at the moment.
Let's see.. the only place that new classes and race will be is in PHB's and Campaign Setting's Player Guides. That leaves out the Dragon Annual.
Though test write up's of races and classes may be in the mags, but the final entry will be in the books mentioned above.
See, I don't think that makes sense at all concerning warforged. Considering the heavy themes in Eberron concerning them and their creation, leaving them out of the campaign setting would be silly at best, and down right stupid at worst.
They left the Tieflings, Elves(except for Drow), Human, Dwarves, Haflings, Half-Elves, Deva(Aasimar) and Gnomes out of the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide. I'd imagine that all those together cover well over 50% of the campaign setting's population on Toril and most of the important NPCs. Do you consider it a stupid move not to have printed(or reprinted) them for that book?
Let's see.. the only place that new classes and race will be is in PHB's and Campaign Setting's Player Guides. That leaves out the Dragon Annual.
Though test write up's of races and classes may be in the mags, but the final entry will be in the books mentioned above.
Except that the Warforged was not a playtest article.
They left the Tieflings, Elves(except for Drow), Human, Dwarves, Haflings, Half-Elves, Deva(Aasimar) and Gnomes out of the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide. I'd imagine that all those together cover well over 50% of the campaign setting's population on Toril and most of the important NPCs. Do you consider it a stupid move not to have printed(or reprinted) them for that book?
It would have been stupid for them to have reprinted all the races in the PHB, considering you need the PHB to really benefit from the Forgotten Realms Players Guide.
The races you describe are the ones that WotC, so far, are calling the common races. They are going to be common in all the worlds WotC publishes most likely. Since Warforged are not in the PHB, and most likely not in the PHB2, all the people who want to play in Eberron, which has a pretty damn heavy focus on warforged. Since they were created for that world, players would have to wait to make warforged PC's. That doesn't make any logical sense to me.
Not everyone may use the Dragon articles. The only reason that warforged were one of the early releases for the E-mag was because, WotC want's to get everyone who is playing 3.5 Eberron to play 4e Eberron. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen for a year, and a stumbling block is getting people to convert their characters. The article provides a fully fleshed out race, and gives an incentive to continue a 3.5 Eberron campaign into 4e. Yes, dragonmarks are left out but, they can't let all the secrets go.
As I said, there are major plot points in the Eberron setting that reference warforged. They were created to be soldiers in a great war, that just ended recently in the world. Many are free, and not knowing what to do they gravitate to adventuring. They were made by one of the dragonmarked houses, there is a major villain that wants to wipe out all non warforged. They are integral to the setting. Leaving them out of the Eberron Players Guide, would be a slap in the face to all the potential Eberron converts to 4e - which means, less sales for 4e, making it not only a silly idea, but a bad business decision.
Now, just because the Forgotten realms players guide only has two playabe races in it doesn't mean that the Eberron players guide has to be limited by that as well. We may get warforged, Kalashtar and dopplegangers. However, the latter can be left out because they can be worked into ANY setting really easily, while the other two are, to say once again, intrinsically linked to the world of Eberron.
We totally need a Dungeonborn race in the PHBII. It would rock XD
I wish Kobolds were a core player race :p
Kobolds are so OP. :P
I pretty sure I recall reading somewhere that some of the designers/developers think Kobolds (as per NPC stats in the MM) are too powerful to be a PC race.
Except that the Warforged was not a playtest article.
We will see when it is presented in the Eberron Campaign Players Guide.
We will see when it is presented in the Eberron Campaign Players Guide.
Actually we can already see that it isn't a pleytest article because the word playtest does not appear in it at all. Whether they will appear in the Eberron Player's Guide is an entirely different question.
And I am way too tired to get into this argument again, so I'm bowing out for now.
We will see when it is presented in the Eberron Campaign Players Guide.
He's right. It wasn't a playtest, period. However, this doesn't necessarily mean it won't be different in its Eberron form. In this manner, everything is a "playtest", of sorts.
There is no debate, the Warforged is gonna be in the Eberron Guide, not an optional online mag made into a "best of..." physical publication. We already know it isn't in the PHB2, and certainly not in the FR players guide.
This is almost a Parallel with the Divine/Arcane argument in regards to the new Warlock.
He's right. It wasn't a playtest, period. However, this doesn't necessarily mean it won't be different in its Eberron form. In this manner, everything is a "playtest", of sorts.
Optional material can be changed before it is published. In that respect, it is a beta form in the online mag, to be refined and detailed within the Eberron setting.
You see, I look at what is coming for the PHB2, and see the Gnome, the Half-Orc, and the Shifter. It is unfortchanent that the Half Orc is making a return, but the point is that the write up for it is in Dragon already, and the Gnome is in the MM as a "Playable Monster Race" and the Shifter is a race that is originally from the Eberron book from the previous edition.
There is no debate, the Warforged is gonna be in the Eberron Guide, not an optional online mag made into a "best of..." physical publication. We already know it isn't in the PHB2, and certainly not in the FR players guide.
This is almost a Parallel with the Divine/Arcane argument in regards to the new Warlock.
.....There is no Half-Orc write up in Dragon atm. If there was, then you would be right and there would be no argument about whether or not Warforged will be in the Eberron Player's Guide. However beyond playtest material, we currently have no indication whether they will or will not reprint material from Dragon in other products beyong the Annuals. I'm betting that they will not.
And I am not familiar with that argument.
.....There is no Half-Orc write up in Dragon atm. If there was, then you would be right and there would be no argument about whether or not Warforged will be in the Eberron Player's Guide. However beyond playtest material, we currently have no indication whether they will or will not reprint material from Dragon in other products beyong the Annuals. I'm betting that they will not.
And I am not familiar with that argument.
First thing, I had thought that the Half Orc was already in Dragon, since there had been a lot of munchkins that want it back. It was promised to be in the online mag so I have no doubt that it will make it's way in before the end of the year.
That aside, there had been confirmation that the only places new classes and races would be is in the PHB's and the Campaign players guides. The annuals for the optional online material is not a part of that formula.
.....There is no Half-Orc write up in Dragon atm. If there was, then you would be right and there would be no argument about whether or not Warforged will be in the Eberron Player's Guide. However beyond playtest material, we currently have no indication whether they will or will not reprint material from Dragon in other products beyong the Annuals. I'm betting that they will not.
And I am not familiar with that argument.
The underlying issue that I can see is whether online materials (such as the Dragon/DnD Insider stuff) are of equal 'core' status to the printed books. In the past, this material was generally not as heavily playtested as the printed material and was thus apocryphal at best.
I'm not sure whether it's intended to have 'online exclusive' material which isn't eventually released in a printed book.
That being said, it is a given that there will be a good many people that will not see the optional material, and most likely won't get the annuals mentioned because they never looked at the material they may contain.
It is uncertain if the Dragon or Dungeon mags will be done in a "best of.." annual, bi-annual, quarterly or semi-annual bases, or if it will be sold from the web site or be available from the same distribution channels as the regular books.
This makes almost certain that the place for the Warforged to be published is in the Eberron book. I also see the possibility that the write up will be quite different from the one online, though most of the mechanics will be the same.
First thing, I had thought that the Half Orc was already in Dragon, since there had been a lot of munchkins that want it back. It was promised to be in the online mag so I have no doubt that it will make it's way in before the end of the year.
That aside, there had been confirmation that the only places new classes and races would be is in the PHB's and the Campaign players guides. The annuals for the optional online material is not a part of that formula.
Honestly, I'm expecting them to not do a half-orc article. I'm thinking that they weren't originally going to do the half-orc in the PHBII when they made that statement and they clearly intend for it to be the PHBII now. And we'll see about the last comment. Until recently it didn't even seem that they were confident on whether they were doing an Annual or not, so at the time they made the original statement the annuals might not have factored into the equation.
It is uncertain if the Dragon or Dungeon mags will be done in a "best of.." annual, bi-annual, quarterly or semi-annual bases, or if it will be sold from the web site or be available from the same distribution channels as the regular books.
This makes almost certain that the place for the Warforged to be published is in the Eberron book. I also see the possibility that the write up will be quite different from the one online, though most of the mechanics will be the same.
Amazon already has the Dungeon Annuallisted. The timing places it as an annual. It will be released as 160 pages and same standard pricing as a regular supplement($29.95 list price), so it will likely be hardcover as well. Additionally as it is on Amazon, we can assume it will be through the same channels as the other books.
I think your reasoning about how the mags are suddenly a major factor in the arrangement rings false. There are other books coming out that would be far better choices than the optional material being redone for an annual. I am in the mindset that Wizards will stick with their guns and go with the original plan, and have "options" for the current stock of classes and races rather than having a slew of products that will repeat some of the watered down wastes of the previous edition.
T$R, back in the day, had a huge glut of material that gushed out in the attempt to have the poor player have to buy multiple books to keep current. Wizards, I believe, wants to avoid that. The only book a player should need is a PHB, and perhaps a good DM.
Anyways, the only race write-ups so far in Dragon is the Warforged and the upcoming Gnoll, and frankly there is absolutely no indication of what will or will not make it as future articles. Hell, I didn't even expect the Gnolls - I figured Goblinoids or Kobolds would have been in long before them.
So to say the Half-Orcs will be in Dragon before the PHB2 is, well, silly.
I think they knew that the Half Orc was going to be in something, such as Eberron, though whether or not they put it in the PHB2 was up in the air. (stupidity won, it's in) To have both the Dragonborn and the Half Orc as a PHB race is redundant, but the Munchkins want their str monkey and think it is going to be different than anything else that has been out thus far. (+4 to Str? not likely)
I think your reasoning about how the mags are suddenly a major factor in the arrangement rings false. There are other books coming out that would be far better choices than the optional material being redone for an annual. I am in the mindset that Wizards will stick with their guns and go with the original plan, and have "options" for the current stock of classes and races rather than having a slew of products that will repeat some of the watered down wastes of the previous edition.
T$R, back in the day, had a huge glut of material that gushed out in the attempt to have the poor player have to buy multiple books to keep current. Wizards, I believe, wants to avoid that. The only book a player should need is a PHB, and perhaps a good DM.
Or you know some people could just like the half orc background, but I don't think you really care. Anyways we have 5 more issues until the PHBII is released, so we'll see then whether or the half-orc will be in there or not.....btw does anyone remember where that info came from? I'd like to look at it again for context.
And I am of the opinion that wizards will not a) put any of the articles of Dragon(except for explicit playtest articles) off limits to the annual and b) will treat the material in the annual the same as it would treat material in any other official book and not reprint it. Only time will tell which one of us is right about this, so we might as well just drop this argument because neither one of us is budging.
That aside, there had been confirmation that the only places new classes and races would be is in the PHB's and the Campaign players guides. The annuals for the optional online material is not a part of that formula.
It seems they've already gone back on that, as there'll be a player race in the Manual of the Planes. So if we can expect to see a new PC race in Manual of the Planes, than the Dragon Annual is a pretty good bet, too. It certainly makes more sense that they'd reprint new races introduced in Dragon there than reprint them in campaign player guides.
It seems they've already gone back on that, as there'll be a player race in the Manual of the Planes. So if we can expect to see a new PC race in Manual of the Planes, than the Dragon Annual is a pretty good bet, too. It certainly makes more sense that they'd reprint new races introduced in Dragon there than reprint them in campaign player guides.
Actually all that we know about that is that it is a new race, there is a speculation that it is simply a MM style race as opposed to a full write up.
I think Hall-orc, since Orcs are too uncivilized, just wouldn't work...Half-Hobgoblin on the other hand maybe :p since they are more civilized (though still barbaric).
Unfortunatly for your idea, we aleayd have confirmation from a catalogue sent out to retailers that it is the half-orc.
Deva is a terrible name. It makes me think of female vocalists. I'd never get caught dead playing something called a Deva. I guess it could be Deva for the fifth race, but I'm still going with Doppleganger as my guess.
Offhand, Insider is going to showcase a new race as a PC. GNOLLS. With racial feats. There is justice after all!!!
From all the people that wanted a PC race that didn't look too human- Thanks Wizards! About time. Get a cool race. I just hope they'll be kind enough to maybe put Gnolls in the PHB3....with a glorious writeup in hardcover!
The Dragon article on Warforged doesn't add a NEW race. It expands on a race already listed in the MM giving it more options. Therefore it could be in the Annual and not in the Eberron PG. The Drow in the FRPG is a similar issue while the Genasi is indeed new. So they could technically put the Warforged article in the Annual and call it good without breaking their rule.
As for the Manual of the Planes, who's to say that's not considered a core book/campaign player guide. The planes are integral but still a bit more than gets fleshed out in the PHB/DMG/MM. There may not be enough material to do a seperate CG/PG for the Planes so they're combined into one book. It's all a matter of how WotC decides to classify the books. Also the intent of the rule seemed more to be that they didn't plan or want a ton of splat books with classes and races scattered all over.
The upcoming gnoll article is like the Warforged article. It expands on the PC race entry listed in the MM with more options and fleshing it out to be more like the PHB race entries which basicaly means a bit of fluff and some racial feats. The Warforged article goes even further by giving Warforged exclusive paragon paths and items. We could very well see ecology of... articles for the PHB races that expands on them more (and eladrin have an article now that gives them some new exclusive paths and abilities).
As for the Manual of the Planes, who's to say that's not considered a core book/campaign player guide. The planes are integral but still a bit more than gets fleshed out in the PHB/DMG/MM. There may not be enough material to do a seperate CG/PG for the Planes so they're combined into one book. It's all a matter of how WotC decides to classify the books. Also the intent of the rule seemed more to be that they didn't plan or want a ton of splat books with classes and races scattered all over.
They are making an effort to keep DM books and player books seperate, as such I doubt that they'll do a combined book this soon in. Besides, beyond the race, we have heard them mention absolutely no new player options such as feats, weapons, paragon paths, or epic destinies being in the book. I'm pretty sure that is the book was going to have any amount of player options beyond the new race, that they would have mentioned it by now as they otherwise risk losing some sales.
I don't see that getting published in an Annual when it is already slated to be in the Eberron books. Not going to happen.
I don't see that getting published in an Annual when it is already slated to be in the Eberron books. Not going to happen.
But it hasn't been officially slated for release in the Eberron Player's Guide. They haven't even confirmed that there will be any new races in it yet.
They are a major part of the setting, a cornerstone in the plotline of the background, and really they an unique race made within this setting.
What makes you think they would be elsewhere?
Deva is a terrible name. It makes me think of female vocalists. I'd never get caught dead playing something called a Deva.
It’s pronounced Day-Vah, not Dee-Vuh.
OK? Do you think that it would not be there? Really?
They are a major part of the setting, a cornerstone in the plotline of the background, and really they an unique race made within this setting.
What makes you think they would be elsewhere?
Haven't we been over this a hundred times already?
My reasoning is essiatlly just that I don't think they will reprint anything from Dragon in any source other then the Annual. As the full warforged write up is in Dragon, redoing it for the Eberron Player's Guide would basically be a reprint.Yes, I realize the Warforged already appear in Dragon Magazine. However, this doesn't mean that I don't expect Warforged in the EPG, nor that I think they won't have been updated when they appear there.
It’s pronounced Day-Vah, not Dee-Vuh.
Day-Vah still sounds a whole lot like Dee-Vuh, and Deva looks nearly identical to Diva. It's an easy connection to make.
It’s pronounced Day-Vah, not Dee-Vuh.
Oh sorry... Dave it is then. Listening to Devo. Yep, no silly connections to be found anywhere there.
Listening to Devo.
Whip it good! *in the voice of Dr Evil*
Are we not men?
I'm a pre-op transsexual, thank you very much.
Day-Vah still sounds a whole lot like Dee-Vuh, and Deva looks nearly identical to Diva. It's an easy connection to make.
And the wrong one!
I'm sure if we repeat this often enough, it might sink in. I mean, hey, if it worked for "gish" it will work for a REAL word.
Cheers,
Cam
And the wrong one!
I'm sure if we repeat this often enough, it might sink in. I mean, hey, if it worked for "gish" it will work for a REAL word.
Cheers,
Cam
Ha. It'll be the first time the errata fluff. Watchout Forgotten Realms Player's Guide.
And the wrong one!
I'm sure if we repeat this often enough, it might sink in. I mean, hey, if it worked for "gish" it will work for a REAL word.
Cheers,
Cam
Didn't seem to help
Of course, there would be no need to repeat anything often enough so that it sinks in if the name didn't come with silly connotations right out of the gate. There would be no need for anything to sink in with Nephilim or Celestial, for instance. So maybe they should've gone with one of those, instead?
Diva - "distinguished woman singer," 1883, from It. diva "goddess, fine lady," from L. diva "goddess," fem. of divus "divine (one)."
From an Etymology stand point it doesn't look like diva really means a female singer/pop idol/prima donna. It seems that some Italian Opera fan decided to call his favorite singer a goddess and the term stuck.
Haven't we been over this a hundred times already?
Lets go over it again...
New Classes and Races are going to be in PHB's and Campaign players guilds.
Not the Dragon/Dungeon Annuals. (Is it one or does each "magazine" have an annual?)
There would be no need for anything to sink in with Nephilim or Celestial, for instance. So maybe they should've gone with one of those, instead?
Celestial? Like Celestial Seasonings, the company that makes all of that hippy herbal tea? ZOMG! My new half-angel race is a New Age herbal tea drinker!
Nephilim? That sounds like Nerf. ZOMG! Aasimar have been nerfed in 4E! Teh suxxor!
This is easy, man. If you're looking to be annoyed, you'll find a way.
Cheers,
Cam
This is easy, man. If you're looking to be annoyed, you'll find a way.
Big difference between looking to be annoyed, and going through half-a-dozen contortions to arrive at that point as you just did, and having things like Deva/Diva spring right out at you. And frankly, I doubt anything you thought up actually sprung out at you. If they had, then you certainly would've brought them up days ago, when this discussion first began. More likely you sat there for a few minutes and thought about it in order to make a fairly weak point. Maybe did a google search to come up with one of those. That's quite different then the reaction I and many other people had pretty much the instant we heard Aasimar were renamed Devas.
And many other people had just that reaction. For instance, I mosied on over to ENWorld to check out a few things, there, and spotted a thread discussing this very subject. And wouldn't you know it? Several people there made the Deva/Diva connection, too, long before I got a chance to make any comment on it. So I guess I'm not the one straining credulity, here.
Big difference between looking to be annoyed, and going through half-a-dozen contortions to arrive at that point as you just did, and having things like Deva/Diva spring right out at you. And frankly, I doubt anything you thought up actually sprung out at you. If they had, then you certainly would've brought them up days ago, when this discussion first began. More likely you sat there for a few minutes and thought about it in order to make a fairly weak point. Maybe did a google search to come up with one of those. That's quite different then the reaction I and many other people had pretty much the instant we heard Aasimar were renamed Devas.
And many other people had just that reaction. For instance, I mosied on over to ENWorld to check out a few things, there, and spotted a thread discussing this very subject. And wouldn't you know it? Several people there made the Deva/Diva connection, too, long before I got a chance to make any comment on it. So I guess I'm not the one straining credulity, here.
No, your not the only one. Deva just reminds one of diva, the words are very similar.
Still they are referred to as Devas in the FRPG, a small difference but it seems that Devas and not Deva is the name. So if people want to refer to them as a group of singers trapped in a single body i guess they can, but it will stretch it some :P
Oh and one more thing...it can lead to good RP having the long suffering Divine touched paladin take the jokes of his companions but staunchly defend them when the time comes.....actually no it would just get annoying, scratch that!
So I guess I'm not the one straining credulity, here.
I also made the connection immediately (although I never did think of Ass-imar when I heard of Aasimar. I guess because I pronounce it Aa-simar with the Aa quite separate from the s). It doesn't bother me, but I did make it.
And honestly, would it be a problem if the name happened to share such a relationship with a word that wasn't "diva," or is there some particular stigma to "diva" I'm not cognizant of?
Several people there made the Deva/Diva connection
I'm fine with it, as the Astral Deva has been around since the 1st Ed MM II, way before the Aasimar hit the scene, and no one ever made fun of the Astral Deva back in the day.
is there some particular stigma to "diva" I'm not cognizant of?
It makes people think of Mariah Carey and Diana Ross etc.
I'm fine with it, as the Astral Deva has been around since the 1st Ed MM II, way before the Aasimar hit the scene, and no one ever made fun of the Astral Deva back in the day.
The word diva has seen much more use in recent years then it was used back then. Wasn't until '98 that VH1 held the first Diva concert.
Big difference between looking to be annoyed, and going through half-a-dozen contortions to arrive at that point as you just did, and having things like Deva/Diva spring right out at you. And frankly, I doubt anything you thought up actually sprung out at you.
Nope, those sprang into my mind as I wrote.
I think it's because I knew what a deva was, and have known what a deva is for twenty years or so. So, it's pretty familiar territory. I certainly don't think of Mariah Carey unless I'm forced to.
Cheers,
Cam
Nope, those sprang into my mind as I wrote.
...days later? Suuurrreee.
Let me see if I can summarize your argument, though. Deva's not a bad name, because by its definition it's an appropriate name, despite the contention of several people that it's easily open to ridicule (which is basically the reason why that race is no longer called Aasimar).
So Celestial and Nephilim are bad names because, even though by definition they're appropriate names... they're potentially open to ridicule? If that's your argument, then aren't you arguing against the name Deva, as well? Especially seeing as how numerous people have made the Deva/Diva connection, whereas no one have made any such connections regarding Celestial or Nephilim. So if a name being open to ridicule is a valid reason to discount it, then clearly Deva is the inferior choice out of them all, as it's shown itself to be far more open to ridicule than Celestial or Nephilim.
I think it's because I knew what a deva was, and have known what a deva is for twenty years or so. So, it's pretty familiar territory. I certainly don't think of Mariah Carey unless I'm forced to.
Nobody forced numerous other posters to make that connection, and yet they made that connection all on their own.
Cheers,
Cam
some one remarked that the warforged was already relished in the dragon but you miss the fact that that is were they are relishing play test stuff. I am sure that we will be seeing the warforged in EB it is core to the setting.
.....Only the stuff in playtest articles is being released for playtesting and the Warforged article was not a playtest article.
some one remarked that the warforged was already relished in the dragon but you miss the fact that that is were they are relishing play test stuff. I am sure that we will be seeing the warforged in EB it is core to the setting.
Relish is a condiment. How do you relish a warforged? I'll bet it involves a blender. Moreover, who eats warforged relish? I can see a dragon eating halfling relish, but warforged relish? Not so much.
It could be worse than Deva. They could be coming out with a race called Mutherinlaw. I think that's more appropriate for the Monster Manual.
When the PHB II comes out, I'm making a female Deva Bard named Dian'a Y'ross. She will wear sparkly dresses.
It has been stated before, the only places that new races or classes will be in is within PHB's or Campaign settings player guides. Other books will have new powers for already existing classes, new PP and ED's, and possibly have crafting rules at some point (though I am not holding my breath on that last one)
Relish is a condiment. How do you relish a warforged? I'll bet it involves a blender. Moreover, who eats warforged relish? I can see a dragon eating halfling relish, but warforged relish? Not so much.
It could be worse than Deva. They could be coming out with a race called Mutherinlaw. I think that's more appropriate for the Monster Manual.
When the PHB II comes out, I'm making a female Deva Bard named Dian'a Y'ross. She will wear sparkly dresses.
Dude, are you saying you haven't ha d Warforged Relish before. It's the Premier topping on Chicago Dogs. Just pop over to Chi Town, there are like 10 guys outside the Field Museum selling Warforged Dogs. Warforged Relish, it's the crunchiest.
When PHB II comes out I'm going to make an male Deva Bard named Miacal J'acason who undergoes drastic magical facial reconstruction to look like D'ian'a Y'ross.