Myself, I'd like to see an option for a Tiefling themed with a damage keyword other than Fire. I've been mulling over in my mind the idea of a cold-oriented Tiefer, a "Scion of Cania" so to speak (the 8th layer of Baator or whatever it's getting called now; one of the two layers that's cold-themed, I believe.)
I've thought about constructing such a character by making a Tiefling Warden (or Fighter/Warden) and taking the Icewrought Sentinel paragon path. It's a workable concept as it is, but it feels like I'm fighting uphill against the mechanics to accomplish the flavor that I'm going for--such a character would end up with the stat boosts in the wrong place, and couldn't even really pick up Hellfire Blood (or any other fire-synergy feat) to help itself along.
Also, although it'd be a largely fluff thing, I'd love to see a shoutout to the oldschool tieflings; perhaps provide some alternate background for the race that involves them being planeborne of a variety of locales instead of all looking pretty much the same. Bring back that chart of possible tiefling traits/appearances from the Planewalker's Handbook or somesuch.
Of course tieflings are much cooler than genasi (horns own stupid spike hair), so I guess I shouldn't complain if they stole the other ones lunch money.
My question, do you think the tiefling will have a second stat option (cha+ cha or con)?
I'm not sure if or when this sort of thing will be given to all the existing races -- it didn't happen for the Dragonborn book, but that may be because they didn't really know yet what was gonna be in PH3 when they sent the Dragonborn book to print.
I think Int + (Con or Cha) would be appropriate, as it would render Tiefers into excellent Infernalocks (which, honestly, they should be!). Cha + (Con or Int) would make them better elation ardents and [build name?] battleminds, which wouldn't be terrible, but those classes seem less in-line with Tiefer flavor. (Adding Con either way would assist slightly in my Tiefling Warden concept, incidentally.)
It's also possible that they'll add something other than constitution, even though con is already the basis for a few Tiefling-related effects. Previous editions gave them a Dex bonus, I believe -- I'd prefer not to see that now because dex-int and dex-cha are already somewhat over-represented in existing races. It would make them better rogues, though, certainly, which is flavorful.
There's no precedent for it, but I think adding in Wisdom would be an interesting touch, giving them significantly more aptitude for Divine classes. This would fit my vision of Tieflings in my homebrew world (they are a society steeped in rituals, worshipping both warlock-pact-esque beings and also gods of the dark and the light), but would perhaps not jive so well with the overall 4e view of the race.
change an arcane power to Fire power
retain Infernal Wrath killing a non-minion
Why would they get optional stats? Did the D-born get them in their handbook?
No, but the optional stats seem to have been decided on during the 2 months between when the Dragonborn book went to press and when PHB3 went to press. I would pay more attention to what WotC publishes after PHB3 to confirm whether they do plan to have optional stats for more of the existing races.
Okay, I did not pick up the D-born book and just wanted to know were the optional stats stood.
Since alot of people seemed to only be playing races with boost to their class stats, even a few extra feats they trew (tunnel stalker) didn't seem to help diversify things enough. So they "play tested" the idea with the chagling. People liked it, nothing broken happend, and so they built it into the new races. There's been alot of speculation about adding it as an option for previous races. The response they got is pretty good (with a few nay-sayers, but you can't please everyone).
I don't know if the old races will get boosts, it's hard to say since they built feats with no-boost in mind. But if they did, the race handbooks would be a perfect place to introduce them.
I still prefer the "classic" Tiefling look over the giant horns they have in 4th edition. I wish they would relax their art guidelines a bit and give more variety in Tieflings, i.e. smaller and/or different shaped horns.
What we don't need is another barrage of racial feats that amount to a small bonus to Infernal Wrath: the Dragonborn book had how many of those for Dragonbreath? It starts to get repetitive soon.
And I agree on the Int + Cha or Con thing. If they do that, Infernal Wrath should also be changed to Cha or Con. Apart from the obvious Infernal Warlock, there are a number of classes that just benefit more from Con than any point in Cha. Fighter, Warden and Ranger come to mind. And let's not forget Artificers, Staff Wizards and Swordmages.
I'd also like to see bloodlines: Tieflings descended from a Balor, Succubus, Pit Fiend, Glabreezu, Marilith, Slaad etc. should have different flavors. This could be a combination of bloodlines and Paragon Paths.
For Clerics, Invokers, Paladins, Avengers, Seekers and Runepriests, we need more infernal-themed builds/powers/feats/paragon paths. Of course, there are Tieflings who enter the service of a good-aligned deity to atone for the past misdeeds of their race, but there are also those who enter shaky pacts with infernal beings to gain power to use it for good (or at least not-so-selfish purposes). Fighting fire with fire is a very powerful concept.
And don't forget the archetypes: We need a kick-ass Tiefling Infernal Warlock PP. Definitely. And a "Lord of the Abyss" ED.
I still prefer the "classic" Tiefling look over the giant horns they have in 4th edition. I wish they would relax their art guidelines a bit and give more variety in Tieflings, i.e. smaller and/or different shaped horns.
What we don't need is another barrage of racial feats that amount to a small bonus to Infernal Wrath: the Dragonborn book had how many of those for Dragonbreath? It starts to get repetitive soon.
And I agree on the Int + Cha or Con thing. If they do that, Infernal Wrath should also be changed to Cha or Con. Apart from the obvious Infernal Warlock, there are a number of classes that just benefit more from Con than any point in Cha. Fighter, Warden and Ranger come to mind. And let's not forget Artificers, Staff Wizards and Swordmages.
I'd also like to see bloodlines: Tieflings descended from a Balor, Succubus, Pit Fiend, Glabreezu, Marilith, Slaad etc. should have different flavors. This could be a combination of bloodlines and Paragon Paths.
For Clerics, Invokers, Paladins, Avengers, Seekers and Runepriests, we need more infernal-themed builds/powers/feats/paragon paths. Of course, there are Tieflings who enter the service of a good-aligned deity to atone for the past misdeeds of their race, but there are also those who enter shaky pacts with infernal beings to gain power to use it for good (or at least not-so-selfish purposes). Fighting fire with fire is a very powerful concept.
And don't forget the archetypes: We need a kick-ass Tiefling Infernal Warlock PP. Definitely. And a "Lord of the Abyss" ED.
You're mixing the Abyss with the Nine Hells. Demons and Devils aren't the same thing. Slaads are neither.
and Tieflings aren't 'descended' from anything but other Tieflings.
What do you predict and/or hope for in the Tiefling book coming out in a few months?
I pretty much like the tieflings as they are. My greatest hope for the tiefling book is that they reinstate some of the old fluff regarding appearance. I liked the variance of tiefling appearance in older editions, and it could be easy to work such a thing into the core fluff of 4e by allowing for different tribes or ethnicities among the larger tiefling race.
I know that, since this is a fluff issue, it can easily be handled through a cooperative DM; but I'd at least like a mention of racial variance to help nudge less flexible DMs in the right direction.
and Tieflings aren't 'descended' from anything but other Tieflings.
That's wrong, actually. As of the first Tiefling Winning Races article, Tieflings can be descended from devils mating with Tieflings. There's an entire bloodline centered around it.
Actually, that was wrong even from before the article. Tieflings can mate with humans ( and presumably anything else humans can have kids with) and have kids. Those kids are always Tieflings due to the curse.
...something that will give options to use horns and tail: not please a horning charge, maybe someting like "use the tail to grab small objects, so to pick up as a free action"
change an arcane power to Fire power
retain Infernal Wrath killing a non-minion
I was my hope that MP2 would have a brawler build headbutt that did +2 damage if you were a teifling
maybee a feat that gives them back the hooves
How about an epic destiny for turning into a human as you purge the curse from your blood. I know my teifling pally would take it for RP reasons alone.
...something that will give options to use horns and tail: not please a horning charge, maybe someting like "use the tail to grab small objects, so to pick up as a free action"
change an arcane power to Fire power
retain Infernal Wrath killing a non-minion
I was my hope that MP2 would have a brawler build headbutt that did +2 damage if you were a teifling maybee a feat that gives them back the hooves How about an epic destiny for turning into a human as you purge the curse from your blood. I know my teifling pally would take it for RP reasons alone.
Well if you consider that the Devils of the Nine Hells were once Angels and other divine being in the service of He Who Was, how about an Epic Destiny that rids the Tiefling of the taint of the curse of He Who Was instead? Go all the way back to the 'original sin' of Asmodeus that created Devils in the first place.
That seems suitably epic, a sort of 'Chosen of He Who Was' basically.
How about an epic destiny for turning into a human as you purge the curse from your blood. I know my teifling pally would take it for RP reasons alone.
Take a look at Reincarnate Champion in Primal Power. If you can multiclass into a primal class and retrain away any feats that have Tiefling race as a requirement, you can change your race to Human around 26th level. If multiclassing into a primal class isn't an option, then I guess you will either have to homebrew something or wait for somebody to publish something that does that.
After all, wasn't there an epic destiny that leads to a Drow being reborn as an elf or eladrin?
I'd also like to see bloodlines: Tieflings descended from a Balor, Succubus, Pit Fiend, Glabreezu, Marilith, Slaad etc. should have different flavors. This could be a combination of bloodlines and Paragon Paths.
and Tieflings aren't 'descended' from anything but other Tieflings.
That's wrong, actually. As of the first Tiefling Winning Races article, Tieflings can be descended from devils mating with Tieflings. There's an entire bloodline centered around it.
Actually, that was wrong even from before the article. Tieflings can mate with humans ( and presumably anything else humans can have kids with) and have kids. Those kids are always Tieflings due to the curse.
Mutt, you're right in that they can be descended from -whatever- the non-Tiefling parents are. However: the poster that who's post was posted against so as your post was posting against the second post, that is, the progenitor of this sub-discussion; that person seemed to imply alternate origins for Tieflings – that Tieflings weren't humans who made pacts with Devils in the past, dooming their entire bloodline, but rather people descended from mixed fiendish bloodlines, whether it be Devil or Demon.
Granted, in Eberron, Tieflings seem to be more Demonic, considering they're wild people of the Demon Wastes. But core fluff states they're only directly descended from humans who made a bad Infernal Pact. The Winning Races: Tieflings article showed that some Tieflings interbred with Devils along the way, but that's in no way the origin story for that Tiefling bloodline themselves; it was Tieflings who slept with the Devils, not Humans, to make more Tieflings.
Well if you consider that the Devils of the Nine Hells were once Angels and other divine being in the service of He Who Was, how about an Epic Destiny that rids the Tiefling of the taint of the curse of He Who Was instead? Go all the way back to the 'original sin' of Asmodeus that created Devils in the first place.
That seems suitably epic, a sort of 'Chosen of He Who Was' basically.
I like this idea particularly.
Well if you consider that the Devils of the Nine Hells were once Angels and other divine being in the service of He Who Was, how about an Epic Destiny that rids the Tiefling of the taint of the curse of He Who Was instead? Go all the way back to the 'original sin' of Asmodeus that created Devils in the first place.
That seems suitably epic, a sort of 'Chosen of He Who Was' basically.
I like this idea particularly.
Except that Tieflings aren't descended from the devils who were cursed Angels; they're descended from Humans who made pacts with devils who were cursed Angels. Their cursed form is because of human fallacy, not because of Angelic fallacy.