- Martial (4 in PHB2)
- Defender: Fighter
- Leader: Warlord
- Striker: Rogue
- Bonus: Striker: Ranger
- Defender: Fighter
- Divine (4 in PHB2)
- Defender: Paladin
- Leader: Cleric
- Striker: Avenger: Divine Power reference
- Controller: Invoker
- Defender: Paladin
- Arcane (5 in PHB2)
- Defender: Swordmage
- Leader: Artificer
- Striker: Warlock
- Controller: Wizard
- Bonus: Leader: Bard
- Bonus: Controller: Sorcerer
- Defender: Swordmage
- Primal (4 in PHB2)
- Defender: Warden
- Leader: Shaman
- Striker: Barbarian
- Controller: Druid
- Defender: Warden
Defenders: 4
Leaders: 5
Strikers: 5
Controllers: 4
In consideration for the new types of power sources that are intended but have not been released, speculations for roles and classes are as follows:
- Shadow
- Defender: Hexblade
- Leader: Necromancer
- Striker: Ninja
- Controller: Illusionist
- Defender: Hexblade
- Psion
- Defender: Psychic Warrior
- Leader: Empath
- Striker: Soulknife
- Controller: Psion
- Defender: Psychic Warrior
- Elemental
- Defender: Samurai
- Leader: Shugenja
- Striker: Monk
- Controller: Wu Jen
- Defender: Samurai
Defenders: 3
Leaders: 3
Strikers: 3
Controllers: 3
This creates a wheel of opposites, compliments, and neutrals that could have further use in expansions. For example, Divine can be in opposition to Shadow, or Arcana could be opposite to Psionic, Elemental to Primal, etc.
My first post: gotta keep it short because of finals
I hope to elaborate more into my theories for the future of DnD-4e and DnD-VeThoughts?
Finally, Ampersand revealed to us that the "Mercykiller" playtest is, in fact, about the Planescape faction, rather than a new class. (What this means for Planescape in 4E is still unclear.)Otherwise, not bad guesses, Lockeye! (You just gotta keep up with the news! :P )
EDIT: Oh, and Wu-Jen was mentioned early on as probably being an Elemental class, which fits with its 3.5E flavour.
EDIT 2: BTW, welcome to the boards, Lockeye!
Be careful, though; it can get rough in here.Otherwise, not bad guesses, Lockeye! (You just gotta keep up with the news! :P )
EDIT 2: BTW, welcome to the boards, Lockeye!
Yes, I'm behind in the news! Thanks for the welcome too. I'm no stronger to message boards... I've been through the 9 hells and back when dealing with message boards! (I need to write a book about it someday). I'm going to make changenotes accordingly. I'm trying to fit structure versus ongoing confirmations and rumors, which is difficult in of itself.
Also, I'd speculate that the "I" is actually Inquisitor and is a Divine Controller. He'd control enemies through fear effects, radiant damage and other divine effects. But that's just my guess.
Also, I'd speculate that the "I" is actually Inquisitor and is a Divine Controller. He'd control enemies through fear effects, radiant damage and other divine effects. But that's just my guess.
I like your guess!
see abovea Deva Invoker has been seen on demo Character Builder sheets from WotC. (in the allies an party members section, unfortunately)
Awww. Oh well. Do we know what role it wi ll have?
Only in that we know what the party composition was:
In a 7 man party, we have:
2 fighters (Defender)
a Ranger (striker)
a Cleric (leader)
a Warlock (striker)
an Avenger (?)
an Invoker (?)
They're short a controller...
I could see the Hexblade as a Shadow Defender.
If the Shadow Power Sources is more akin to the dark shadowy illusion-y vaguely evil power some Wizards mastered, then Hexblade makes perfect sense. What's more psuedo-evil than putting a curse on another person before slaying him?
A martial controller... would be a swashbuckler (Never I can spell that name well). I imagine a ... do you rebember the elf wardancer from Warhammer?
The D&D equivalent of W wardancer would be the bladesinger (AD&D kit and 3rd Ed. prestige class), but today is replaced by the swordmage of FR Player´s guide.
The problem of a martial controller is its range is hand-to-hand combat (but if he uses a long weapon like a chain or a whip like Castlevania saga).
Sometimes I have imagined a character who fight with a "living" chain, like a snake or a tentacle, but if the psionic soulblade, I´m sorry, soulknife, can throw mind blade with second life... what is it for?
The Shadowcaster created the shadow power source from whole cloth during 3e. The chances are high that it will make an appearance.
I predict the Shadowcaster as the shadow power source controller.
The Shadowcaster created the shadow power source from whole cloth during 3e. The chances are high that it will make an appearance.
You make a good case, Cadfan, but forget that there's already two other classes vying for Shadow Controller: Illusionist and Necromancer. Of course, overlap is possible.
Prediction: The Shadowcaster will have been instrumental in the early conceptualization of the Shadow power source, but ultimately it will be found that the Illusionist and Necromancer have killed the Shadowcaster and reanimated its stuff, so to speak. Consider also that "Shadowcaster" is a potentially problematic name; after all, isn't every class in that power source a "caster of shadows"? (...And something about opaque matter.)
Of course, I'm just offering a counterpoint. I don't know that they'll keep the names "Illusionist" and "Necromancer", either. It's just that I've heard Necromancy and Illusion magic will be strongly represented in the Shadow power source.
You make a good case, Cadfan, but forget that there's already two other classes vying for Shadow Controller: Illusionist and Necromancer. Of course, overlap is possible.
Prediction: The Shadowcaster will have been instrumental in the early conceptualization of the Shadow power source, but ultimately it will be found that the Illusionist and Necromancer have killed the Shadowcaster and reanimated its stuff, so to speak. Consider also that "Shadowcaster" is a potentially problematic name; after all, isn't every class in that power source a "caster of shadows"? (...And something about opaque matter.)
Of course, I'm just offering a counterpoint. I don't know that they'll keep the names "Illusionist" and "Necromancer", either. It's just that I've heard Necromancy and Illusion magic will be strongly represented in the Shadow power source.
Its possible that will happen, but I doubt that it will.
"Illusionist" doesn't even have enough material in it to make it a mechanically distinct class. All its ever been in the past was a wizard who focused on the Illusion school of magic. That's not really much material to work with. Even if they did come up with enough powers to justify an entire class, they'd have to work awfully hard to make sure that class wasn't just a pseudo wizard with a new spell list. And I think we learned in the days of 3e how bad of an idea it was to make new classes that were just pseudo wizards with new spell lists. An additional class has to play differently. It has to encourage different tactics and ways of thinking. I'm not convinced that there's enough meat to the Illusionist archetype to make that happen.
The "necromancer" concept might have enough meat on its bones, but much of its shtick is mechanically suspect in 4e. Historically its been a debuff/pet class. Debuff is ok, but pets are mechanically suspect. It wouldn't be completely impossible to do, but it would be tough, particularly with the historical theme of on-the-fly undead animation and hordes of minions.
Meanwhile, the Shadowcaster is way more archetypically "shadow" than either of those classes. In particular, its "mirror magic" theme is far more appropriate to the Shadow power source than anything that the "necromancer" or "illusionist" have ever had, or ever deserve to have, and its theme of "difficult super pseudo-magic that controls regular magic" is likewise unique. On top of that, the path system provides an interesting architecture for the class- an architecture that neither an illusionist nor a necromancer happen to have.
Unlike the incredibly flavorless illusionist, or the rather generic necromancer, the shadowcaster drips with flavor. Its a far better choice, and in my opinion, more likely to be selected for the power source that is literally named after it.
Its possible that will happen, but I doubt that it will.
"Illusionist" doesn't even have enough material in it to make it a mechanically distinct class. All its ever been in the past was a wizard who focused on the Illusion school of magic. That's not really much material to work with. Even if they did come up with enough powers to justify an entire class, they'd have to work awfully hard to make sure that class wasn't just a pseudo wizard with a new spell list. And I think we learned in the days of 3e how bad of an idea it was to make new classes that were just pseudo wizards with new spell lists. An additional class has to play differently. It has to encourage different tactics and ways of thinking. I'm not convinced that there's enough meat to the Illusionist archetype to make that happen.
The "necromancer" concept might have enough meat on its bones, but much of its shtick is mechanically suspect in 4e. Historically its been a debuff/pet class. Debuff is ok, but pets are mechanically suspect. It wouldn't be completely impossible to do, but it would be tough, particularly with the historical theme of on-the-fly undead animation and hordes of minions.
Meanwhile, the Shadowcaster is way more archetypically "shadow" than either of those classes. In particular, its "mirror magic" theme is far more appropriate to the Shadow power source than anything that the "necromancer" or "illusionist" have ever had, or ever deserve to have, and its theme of "difficult super pseudo-magic that controls regular magic" is likewise unique. On top of that, the path system provides an interesting architecture for the class- an architecture that neither an illusionist nor a necromancer happen to have.
Unlike the incredibly flavorless illusionist, or the rather generic necromancer, the shadowcaster drips with flavor. Its a far better choice, and in my opinion, more likely to be selected for the power source that is literally named after it.
I'm sorry, but the shadowcaster is a horrible name. The name itself does absolutely nothing to describe what it does that makes it different from all the other shadow classes. Plus we get the following exchange(or some variant) way too often:
"I'm a shadowcaster."
"What do you do?"
"I cast shadows!"
Plus there is the shadow dancer, who has a more evocative name and a longer history in D&D. I can just see the shadow power line up now! Shadowdancer, Shadowcaster, Shadowfighter, and the Shadowplumber!:P
Its possible that will happen, but I doubt that it will.
"Illusionist" doesn't even have enough material in it to make it a mechanically distinct class. All its ever been in the past was a wizard who focused on the Illusion school of magic. That's not really much material to work with. Even if they did come up with enough powers to justify an entire class, they'd have to work awfully hard to make sure that class wasn't just a pseudo wizard with a new spell list. And I think we learned in the days of 3e how bad of an idea it was to make new classes that were just pseudo wizards with new spell lists. An additional class has to play differently. It has to encourage different tactics and ways of thinking. I'm not convinced that there's enough meat to the Illusionist archetype to make that happen.
The "necromancer" concept might have enough meat on its bones, but much of its shtick is mechanically suspect in 4e. Historically its been a debuff/pet class. Debuff is ok, but pets are mechanically suspect. It wouldn't be completely impossible to do, but it would be tough, particularly with the historical theme of on-the-fly undead animation and hordes of minions.
Meanwhile, the Shadowcaster is way more archetypically "shadow" than either of those classes. In particular, its "mirror magic" theme is far more appropriate to the Shadow power source than anything that the "necromancer" or "illusionist" have ever had, or ever deserve to have, and its theme of "difficult super pseudo-magic that controls regular magic" is likewise unique. On top of that, the path system provides an interesting architecture for the class- an architecture that neither an illusionist nor a necromancer happen to have.
Unlike the incredibly flavorless illusionist, or the rather generic necromancer, the shadowcaster drips with flavor. Its a far better choice, and in my opinion, more likely to be selected for the power source that is literally named after it.
I completely agree with your assessment of the Illusionist; it didn't have enough in previous editions to stand on its own. That said, I still think there's a good chance it'll incorporate a ton of the Shadowcaster's identity into itself.
Consider, for example, how it was said, "In 4E, the Ranger has killed the (3.5E) Scout and taken his stuff;" it's worth noting that, in fact, 4E's Ranger owes a lot more to 3.5E Scout than it's Ranger. I'm envisioning a similar exchange between Illusionist and Shadowcaster.
As for the Necromancer, we'll have a much better idea of what it could be by next Spring, after we've seen some of the new types of character classes in PH2, in particular, the minion-leading Shaman. At this point, it's still too early to speculate about whether there's room for significant variation within such a mechanic.
Of course, this is merely the loosest speculation at this point, Cadfan. Time has proven me wrong before!
I completely agree with your assessment of the Illusionist; it didn't have enough in previous editions to stand on its own. That said, I still think there's a good chance it'll incorporate a ton of the Shadowcaster's identity into itself.
Its possible.
My basic objection is this- it makes sense for a Shadowcaster to use illusions. The shadowcaster manipulates the stuff of shadows, and the logic in 3e behind illusions that could do damage was that they were infused with shadows.
It doesn't make sense for an Illusionist to use a great many of the things that made up the shadowcaster's shtick. Like darkness, or vision powers, or manipulating reflections in order to control reality.
Now, most of those things that it doesn't really make sense for an illusionist to use are the things which essentially gave birth to Shadow as a power source separate from Arcane Magic.
So losing them would kind of ruin the point of making Shadow a separate power source. That's why I doubt they'll be dropped, and why I doubt the Illusionist will eat the Shadowcaster's role.
Ilusion is light and colour, and shadow is cold and darkness. I don´t imagine the two spellcasters with the same power soucer.
Illusions in D&D are traditionally made up of the stuff of shadows.
Illusions in D&D are traditionally made up of the stuff of shadows.
Never I liked that part. Shadow is too dark, cold, and linked with negative energy. Shadow is absence of light and color. I think D&D illusion magic is created with the power of dreams (dream plane) or the feywild. For me, ilussion magic is closer to feywild that shadowfell.
(I don´t mind what is said by official books. I will change the background like I want).
Never I liked that part. Shadow is too dark, cold, and linked with negative energy. Shadow is absence of light and color. I think D&D illusion magic is created with the power of dreams (dream plane) or the feywild. For me, ilussion magic is closer to feywild that shadowfell.
Shadow is also linked with obscurity and deception
The more I've been thinking about it, I see the Necromancer more as a Shadow Leader: I can easily see powers that deal damage and heal allies similar to the Cleric. In addition, powers that the cleric uses to deal single target or area damage could be replaced with similar Necromancer powers that summon temporary minions and ongoing damage powers.
EDIT: It's almost like it could all be nicely packaged into 3 Source(s) manuals.
Added confirmation of the Invoker, and simplified the list into more realistic goals, considering that the design team was cut.
The more I've been thinking about it, I see the Necromancer more as a Shadow Leader: I can easily see powers that deal damage and heal allies similar to the Cleric. In addition, powers that the cleric uses to deal single target or area damage could be replaced with similar Necromancer powers that summon temporary minions and ongoing damage powers.
EDIT: It's almost like it could all be nicely packaged into 3 Source(s) manuals.
I'd have to agree, the necromancer is a broad term and offers a lot of possibilities. He could heal by sapping and giving the hp to himself or allies. He might heal less but deals some damage as he does so.
-Empath = Psionic Leader
-Hexblade = Shadow Defender
-Illusionist = Shadow Controller
-Incarnate = Ki Leader
-Monk = Ki Striker
-Necromancer – Shadow Leader
-Ninja = Shadow Striker
-Shaper = Psionic Controller
-Sohei = Ki Defender
-Wu-Jen = Elemental Controller
I'd have to agree, the necromancer is a broad term and offers a lot of possibilities. He could heal by sapping and giving the hp to himself or allies. He might heal less but deals some damage as he does so.
Personally, I'd have the necromancer heal in a less straightforward way. Probably with an infusion of temporary hit points. That way healing becomes tactically different for necromancers- normal leaders use healing to shore up weak spots in the line of defense. Necromancers would then use healing to anticipate weak spots in the line of defense, and shore them up preemptively.
I like both of these ideas. Personally, I had also imagined some use of temporary hit points, but now that Ausolion mentions it, vampirism sounds perfect for the Necromancer!
"Vampiric Word" would be an attack (Necromancer Feature, Standard Action), usable twice per encounter, which damages one enemy for 1d6 + Intelligence modifier damage and heals one ally for Surge + (Necromancer's) Intelligence modifier HP. Increase damage to 2d6 + Int at 6th level, 3d6 + Int at 11th level, 4d6 + Int at 16th level, 5d6 + Int at 21st level, and 6d6 + Int at 26th level.
Dang, good idea Ausolion! This already feels slick! As for temporary HP, those could be a major feature of Necromancer's regular powers. Suddenly, 3.5E's evil cleric is back in action!
I like both of these ideas. Personally, I had also imagined some use of temporary hit points, but now that Ausolion mentions it, vampirism sounds perfect for the Necromancer!
"Vampiric Word" would be an attack (Necromancer Feature, Standard Action), usable twice per encounter, which damages one enemy for 1d6 + Intelligence modifier damage and heals one ally for Surge + (Necromancer's) Intelligence modifier HP. Increase damage to 2d6 + Int at 6th level, 3d6 + Int at 11th level, 4d6 + Int at 16th level, 5d6 + Int at 21st level, and 6d6 + Int at 26th level.
Dang, good idea Ausolion! This already feels slick! As for temporary HP, those could be a major feature of Necromancer's regular powers. Suddenly, 3.5E's evil cleric is back in action!
Make his vampiric word power able to heal undead as well. That seems right
Seems unlikely duskblade would return in 4e since swordmages pretty much took over the swords-and-spells niche.
there is plenty of room in that niche...I see the Duskblade being a Striker
I see the Duskblade being a Striker
Shadow Striker?
My opinon I think the Duskblade will be the Shadow Striker and the Ninja may be a 2nd Striker for Ki.
I thought that the Shadow Dancer prestige class would work out well in 4E as a shadow striker, though Duskblade could work. I really can't see why people keep saying Ninja, much more Ki tied in my mind.
Ninja is Martial. Straight rogue. Naruto ninjas would be rogue/elementalist.
I'm in agreement. The more I've been looking at it, the ninja seems like a better fit as a class path of a rogue that uses cloth and exotic weapons. The same goes for samurai of fighters specializing in exotic weapons and scale. In exchange they might get some critical hit bonuses as their flavor. I'm not 100% sure where monk fits, but I also added them to martial.
I'm in agreement. The more I've been looking at it, the ninja seems like a better fit as a class path of a rogue that uses cloth and exotic weapons. The same goes for samurai of fighters specializing in exotic weapons and scale. In exchange they might get some critical hit bonuses as their flavor. I'm not 100% sure where monk fits, but I also added them to martial.
I agree with the samurai and the ninja as being martial. Multi-classing is a great way to get all the showy anime esque powers that people want. You don't even need an elemental powersource you could take wizard or warlock. The problem I think many people have is that they have to write down the name of a class for it to be true, at least to them. However, there are those that want the mystical power martial arts, and that is where I think the monk can be a catch all. While I would prefer a martial monk, there has been mention of a Ki power source, so it is almost a done deal.
Shadow Striker?
Im pretty sure the swordmage ate the duskblade.
Im pretty sure the swordmage ate the duskblade.
Bones and all.
First, it's been pretty well verified as a Ki Striker.
Second, all the other classes in the first part of your list have fixed dates to appear within the next 6 months or so. Not the Monk - it looks doubtful he'll be unveiled anytime in 2009, in fact.
"Ninja as Ki" sorta rubs me the wrong way, after considering the implication that because the class is Asian, it has to be Ki. It's (very subtly) racist, and it's not really that great a fit, anyway.
I like the idea of Ninja as a Shadow Striker, becoming invisible, insubstantial, or even phasing as a class feature, in order to get into exactly the right spot for a death-attack against an enemy. They'd use a fair number of illusion powers, and would have lots of attacks which dealt poison or necrotic damage.
I like the idea of Ninja as a Shadow Striker, becoming invisible, insubstantial, or even phasing as a class feature, in order to get into exactly the right spot for a death-attack against an enemy. They'd use a fair number of illusion powers, and would have lots of attacks which dealt poison or necrotic damage.
Illusion powers for the ninja huh?.....Doh. Why didn't I think of that before? The whole mystical ninja idea(summoning frogs, breathing fire, etc) could be created through a shadow power source ninja who uses creates illusions of said effects. Through this we could basically condense four archetpyes; the shadow dancer(okay this one may not be an archetype but meh), the assassin, the stealthy ninja, and the mythical ninja; into a single class. And I really think that the class would be quite interesting.
So when combined with idea of the necromancy+illusionist+shadowcaster shadow controller(which would be guaranteed to have a bad name) we are still in need of two more classes. The Hexblade would certainly work although it would need to be expanded somewhat. I'm not sure what else could be done though.
I think one could make a passable Ninja as a Martial character, a Rogue. That said, "Ninja" is a pretty nebulous concept in contemporary culture, and lots of Ninja-concepts can do distinctly un-Martial things.
And those un-Martial effects are what many who want a "mystical" ninja class want.
"Ninja as Ki" sorta rubs me the wrong way, after considering the implication that because the class is Asian, it has to be Ki. It's (very subtly) racist, and it's not really that great a fit, anyway.
doctorhook, what you seem to be expecting here is that WotC will make a Political Correctness faux pas by making Ninja a Ki class and some Asian group will get upset and smack WotC with a lawsuit causing Hasbro to freeze D&D development while they clean up the mess. Considering how ninjas have be portrayed in other games and editions, I think that the "mystical" Ninja is the class least likely to trigger this sort of reaction if it is one of the mystical martial artist Ki classes.
If classes with such names as Wu Jen (a TSR created Asian wizard equivalent), Shugenja (Japanese nature priests), and Miko (Shinto shrine maidens) were expected to appear as Ki classes I think your fears would be better founded.
Illusion powers for the ninja huh?.....Doh. Why didn't I think of that before? The whole mystical ninja idea(summoning frogs, breathing fire, etc) could be created through a shadow power source ninja who uses creates illusions of said effects. Through this we could basically condense four archetpyes; the shadow dancer(okay this one may not be an archetype but meh), the assassin, the stealthy ninja, and the mythical ninja; into a single class. And I really think that the class would be quite interesting.
So when combined with idea of the necromancy+illusionist+shadowcaster shadow controller(which would be guaranteed to have a bad name) we are still in need of two more classes. The Hexblade would certainly work although it would need to be expanded somewhat. I'm not sure what else could be done though.
Necromancer,Illusionist,Ninja, and Hexblade would work very well for shadow power source. I actually like this idea a lot
Ninja = ki striker
Assasin = shadow striker.
Sohei = ki defender
Samurai = ki leader.
And those un-Martial effects are what many who want a "mystical" ninja class want.
I completely agree. That's why I wrote that part: I don't think Ninja should be a Martial class, nor do I think it will be.
doctorhook, what you seem to be expecting here is that WotC will make a Political Correctness faux pas by making Ninja a Ki class and some Asian group will get upset and smack WotC with a lawsuit causing Hasbro to freeze D&D development while they clean up the mess. Considering how ninjas have be portrayed in other games and editions, I think that the "mystical" Ninja is the class least likely to trigger this sort of reaction if it is one of the mystical martial artist Ki classes.
If classes with such names as Wu Jen (a TSR created Asian wizard equivalent), Shugenja (Japanese nature priests), and Miko (Shinto shrine maidens) were expected to appear as Ki classes I think your fears would be better founded.
No, I think WotC will do what's best for the game. Mostly, I was refuting the suggestions that, "Ninja ought to be a Ki class," made by various posters.
I agree that "mystical Ninja" is the way to do it. Where I disagree is regarding which power source said "mystical Ninja" ought to use. Thematically, I prefer the use of the Shadow power source to Ki.
Im pretty sure the swordmage ate the duskblade.
Seeing as the two are nothing alike (other than sharing the arcane power source), I'm gonna have to go ahead and say no. The duskblade was a striker if I ever saw one.
Seeing as the two are nothing alike (other than sharing the arcane power source), I'm gonna have to go ahead and say no. The duskblade was a striker if I ever saw one.
Agreed.
Then again, the only Duskblade I ever actually saw in my game was a Gestalt Duskblade/Scout. VERY Striker. (And a damn good combination, too.)
I think one could make a passable Ninja as a Martial character, a Rogue. That said, "Ninja" is a pretty nebulous concept in contemporary culture, and lots of Ninja-concepts can do distinctly un-Martial things.
"Ninja as Ki" sorta rubs me the wrong way, after considering the implication that because the class is Asian, it has to be Ki. It's (very subtly) racist, and it's not really that great a fit, anyway.
I like the idea of Ninja as a Shadow Striker, becoming invisible, insubstantial, or even phasing as a class feature, in order to get into exactly the right spot for a death-attack against an enemy. They'd use a fair number of illusion powers, and would have lots of attacks which dealt poison or necrotic damage.
Ninja as Shadow Striker = cool idea. Kudos! Maybe for starters there could be a build for high damage and a build with more supernatural effects.
I think the ninja could fit under ki, but I too disagree with assertions that it HAS to. Shadow seems a much more natural fit, IMHO, though I know there are others who feel the opposite. It seems similar to the way Elemental would probably fit more smoothly with Shugenja.
Seeing as the two are nothing alike (other than sharing the arcane power source), I'm gonna have to go ahead and say no. The duskblade was a striker if I ever saw one.
Lets see both pretty much used sword to cast spells, both wear light armour. Im really not seeing the diffrence, except eddition wise. I dont see why we need another magic sword swinging class.
Then again I never saw a need for the tempest fighter either.
Lets see both pretty much used sword to cast spells,
Wrong. Duskblades cast spells into their weapons and beat people over the head with them. Swordmages use their weapons as implements.
both wear light armour.
Duskblades were proficient with all armor and light and heavy shields. So no.
Im really not seeing the diffrence, except eddition wise.
That's because you see only a few words and assume that therefore everything else must be the same. In this case the words are "magic" and "weapon."
Then again I never saw a need for the tempest fighter either.
In this case they are "two" and "weapon."
It takes a very special type of person to be able to only see one or two factors regardless of how many variables actually exist.
Wrong. Duskblades cast spells into their weapons and beat people over the head with them. Swordmages use their weapons as implements.
They also have powers that do times weapon damage so no that is pretty much the same.
Duskblades were proficient with all armor and light and heavy shields. So no.
They only started out with light armour and shields, nothing stops a swordmage from wearing heavy armour
That's because you see only a few words and assume that therefore everything else must be the same. In this case the words are "magic" and "weapon."
Theres only so many ways you can build a gish. We do not need two gish classes in 4e because they would end up looking way too similiar.
They also have powers that do times weapon damage so no that is pretty much the same.
They have no way of consistently getting extra striker damage the way a duskblade would get, what with them channeling spells for extra damage in 3.5.
They only started out with light armour and shields, nothing stops a swordmage from wearing heavy armour
Nothing stops a Rogue or Ranger from getting heavy armor either. That doesn't make them any more like the Fighter. Again, (willfully?) ignoring numerous factors in favor of arbitrarily selected key words.
Theres only so many ways you can build a gish. We do not need two gish classes in 4e because they would end up looking way too similiar.
According to you, but you obviously have no intention of looking past shallow similarities like rational people, so you're probably not the right person to discuss this with.
They have no way of consistently getting extra striker damage the way a duskblade would get, what with them channeling spells for extra damage in 3.5.
Nothing stops a Rogue or Ranger from getting heavy armor either. That doesn't make them any more like the Fighter. Again, (willfully?) ignoring numerous factors in favor of arbitrarily selected key words.
According to you, but you obviously have no intention of looking past shallow similarities like rational people, so you're probably not the right person to discuss this with.
Actually Im being perfectly rational. No class is going to be perfect from eddition to eddition things change. The dusk blade did not get much extra damage by chaneling through a weapon. the Swordmage already does that, green flame blade exetra exetra. The problem with 3e is that everything was a striker as there were few mechanics that forced targets to change target, everyone just did damage. Im not seeing how they are significantly different. How is getting an elemental spell that uses weapon damage any different than adding spell damage to a weapon attack?
Wrong. Duskblades cast spells into their weapons and beat people over the head with them. Swordmages use their weapons as implements.
Its the same thing in 4e. In 3e it made sense to have a character who knew how to cast a spell, but who instead cast it into their weapon then attacked with their weapon causing the spell to go off. In 4e style design, that's a huge waste of time and rules text- the whole process gets merged into a single power that attacks someone and deals arcane damage.
3e style: "I cast Generic Firey Ray Spell into my weapon. Then, I attack the orc with my weapon. I hit! I deal weapon damage plus Generic Firey Ray Spell damage."
4e style: "I use my Generic Firey Sword attack. I hit! I do a bunch of fire damage."
The swordmage killed the duskblade and took its stuff. It also killed the bladesinger and took its stuff, and then it went to college and got a degree in Defender.
It is fine to have a Defender Gish and a Striker Gish, just like it is fine to have a two-weapon defender and two weapon striker, and presumable a holy knight defender, and heavy armor holy striker.
This is true. That being said, if the "striker gish" was just a swordmage with the numbers filed off and the damage increased, it would be a waste of time. A striker gish is going to need its own shtick.
It is fine to have a Defender Gish and a Striker Gish, just like it is fine to have a two-weapon defender and two weapon striker, and presumable a holy knight defender, and heavy armor holy striker.
See Im still not sure if temepst figther is needed. It really just seemed like pandering to the whole I want a twf fighter crowd. It is somewhat different but not significantly enough, then again Ive only looked at them Ive never seen a tempest fighter in play and a twf ranger for only a couple of sessions.
I'm going to change my hypothesis on the Monk from Striker to Controller:
Controllers can still dish out the damage. The Druid is a hybrid melee/range controller. The Monk is the melee version of one.
But, given the name, I'd sooner repackage the Duskblade into a melee Shadow Striker. Take away the flashier stuff, give it some more necrotic, poison and psychic attacks.
I definitely would describe the Duskblade as a Striker. That's what he did, got in and amplified his attacks with magic to deal impressive damage. And yes, the Duskblade could be ported to 4e as a Melee Arcane Striker, and would probably be a good new gish that wouldn't step on the Swordmage's toes, or the Warlock's for that matter.
But, given the name, I'd sooner repackage the Duskblade into a melee Shadow Striker. Take away the flashier stuff, give it some more necrotic, poison and psychic attacks.
Agreed. Duskblade as Shadow Striker.
I still say Ninja is a Rogue with a crossclass- either Arcane, Shadow, or Elemental, depending on the source.
Monk, though, is definately the Ki striker. Instead of Sneak Attack or Hunter's Quarry, he would get Flurry of Blows, an at-will Minor action attack, so he could attack 3 times at level 1, in theory.
Agreed. Duskblade as Shadow Striker.
I still say Ninja is a Rogue with a crossclass- either Arcane, Shadow, or Elemental, depending on the source.
Monk, though, is definately the Ki striker. Instead of Sneak Attack or Hunter's Quarry, he would get Flurry of Blows, an at-will Minor action attack, so he could attack 3 times at level 1, in theory.
Meh I dont want to see duskblade, I could easily see shadow dancer as the shadow striker a lot easier than I could the dusk blade. Focusing on powers that grant concealment/combat advantage.
Ninja could be either ki or shadow. With the focus on illusion that the traditional Ninja has then I would definitley go shadow source. Hazori Hanzo would be an excellent example of a historic/mythical figure that that would fit for.
All this talk of ninja, shadow, and duskblades...
I'm going to change my hypothesis on the Monk from Striker to Controller:
Controllers can still dish out the damage. The Druid is a hybrid melee/range controller. The Monk is the melee version of one.
Is it really a hypothesis when we have confirmation one way or another? I mean we know pretty much for a fact that the monk is a ki striker. We have developer comments confirming this.
Nothing is confirmed until it's launched... I've had to go back on my developer comments more than a handful of times as a result of unexpected change of plans or design goals, amid all the protest!
Nothing is confirmed until it's launched... I've had to go back on my developer comments more than a handful of times as a result of unexpected change of plans or design goals, amid all the protest!
I think Monk makes more sense as a ki striker. Not really sure what a ki controller would look like.
All this talk of ninja, shadow, and duskblades...
I'm going to change my hypothesis on the Monk from Striker to Controller:
Controllers can still dish out the damage. The Druid is a hybrid melee/range controller. The Monk is the melee version of one.
A melee Controller is called a Defender, Lockeye, and they get extra hit points.
The Druid has melee controller abilities, but then even the Wizard has Close blast attacks. This doesn't mean you should stay in melee as a Druid! You'll get eaten alive.
Duskblade was definitely a Striker, but what exactly was "Shadow" about it? If it existed in 4E, it would almost certainly be Arcane, IMHO.
A melee Controller is called a Defender, Lockeye, and they get extra hit points.
The Druid has melee controller abilities, but then even the Wizard has Close blast attacks. This doesn't mean you should stay in melee as a Druid! You'll get eaten alive.
Well I read somewhere that artificer would be the last arcane class for 4e, afterall that will make 6 arcane classes. Also they could easily reinvision the duskblade.
No, I think WotC will do what's best for the game. Mostly, I was refuting the suggestions that, "Ninja ought to be a Ki class," made by various posters.
Sorry, I guess my passive-aggressive reaction comes from being a prominent member of the opposing army. I have been one of the strongest supporters of the plausibility of the Ninja being a Ki class for sometime, and often felt I read posts that predominately say things like "The Ninja must not be in the Ki power source," rather than "The Ninja does not necessarily have to have the Ki power source for the class to truly be a Ninja class." On one occasion to my surprise, the poster Cpt. Micha, a poster I often agree with, threatened to rip the hair off of the heads of WotC staff if the Ninja became a 4e class. With posts such as those I hope you can understand why I can feel a little defensive about this topic.
My stance is that we currently need ruffly 3 classes to cover all the traditional ninja archetypes:
- Rogue - For the non-mystical "realistic" version.
- A "shadow dancer" - for the shadow melding version.
- A "Mystical Ninja" - for the the firebreathing, lightning controlling, log substitution version.
Nothing is confirmed until it's launched... I've had to go back on my developer comments more than a handful of times as a result of unexpected change of plans or design goals, amid all the protest!
Well if you are going to take that stance, then why not go with the Druid being a shadow defender? It being a primal controller isn't confirmed after all by your definition.:P
Sorry, I guess my passive-aggressive reaction comes from being a prominent member of the opposing army. I have been one of the strongest supporters of the plausibility of the Ninja being a Ki class for sometime, and often felt I read posts that predominately say things like "The Ninja must not be in the Ki power source," rather than "The Ninja does not necessarily have to have the Ki power source for the class to truly be a Ninja class." On one occasion to my surprise, the poster Cpt. Micha, a poster I often agree with, threatened to rip the hair off of the heads of WotC staff if the Ninja became a 4e class. With posts such as those I hope you can understand why I can feel a little defensive about this topic.
My stance is that we currently need ruffly 3 classes to cover all the traditional ninja archetypes:
- Rogue - For the non-mystical "realistic" version.
- A "shadow dancer" - for the shadow melding version.
- A "Mystical Ninja" - for the the firebreathing, lightning controlling, log substitution version.
I'm in total agreement with you here, Ultimatecalibur. it wasn't so long ago that I was fighting for Ninjas as Ki Strikers, too.
I suppose I saw the... shadow?
Agreed. Duskblade as Shadow Striker.
Won't happen. If you turn the Duskblade into a Shadow powered class, and then turn it into a 4e style Striker, you've basically gutted everything from the class that made it recognizably a Duskblade except for the actual name "Duskblade."
There will almost definitely be a Shadow Striker class, but I expect it to resemble the Shadow Hand style from Tome of Battle. That's the most recent WOTC creation that demonstrates an intention to create a "shadow" powered striker.
Look, the logic that seems to go on in these threads is all wrong.
You can't just list out all the classes of 3e, and then assume they're going to be matched to some slot in a chart of power source against role. Some of those classes are going to die! New classes are going to come into being. Those new classes may or may not take influence from existing classes, but they won't necessarily be the new classes. And frankly, a lot of older classes didn't have enough stuff for new classes to kill them and loot the body. The duskblade, for example- if you made a list of the stuff the Duskblade had in 3e, then crossed off everything that has already been given to the swordmage, you'd have enough remaining to fill a thimble. So its probably gone for good.
You can't just list out all the classes of 3e, and then assume they're going to be matched to some slot in a chart of power source against role. Some of those classes are going to die! New classes are going to come into being. Those new classes may or may not take influence from existing classes, but they won't necessarily be the new classes. And frankly, a lot of older classes didn't have enough stuff for new classes to kill them and loot the body. The duskblade, for example- if you made a list of the stuff the Duskblade had in 3e, then crossed off everything that has already been given to the swordmage, you'd have enough remaining to fill a thimble. So its probably gone for good.
You've got it exactly right.
OTOH, we come here to speculate wildly!
Won't happen. If you turn the Duskblade into a Shadow powered class, and then turn it into a 4e style Striker, you've basically gutted everything from the class that made it recognizably a Duskblade except for the actual name "Duskblade."
There will almost definitely be a Shadow Striker class, but I expect it to resemble the Shadow Hand style from Tome of Battle. That's the most recent WOTC creation that demonstrates an intention to create a "shadow" powered striker.
Look, the logic that seems to go on in these threads is all wrong.
You can't just list out all the classes of 3e, and then assume they're going to be matched to some slot in a chart of power source against role. Some of those classes are going to die! New classes are going to come into being. Those new classes may or may not take influence from existing classes, but they won't necessarily be the new classes. And frankly, a lot of older classes didn't have enough stuff for new classes to kill them and loot the body. The duskblade, for example- if you made a list of the stuff the Duskblade had in 3e, then crossed off everything that has already been given to the swordmage, you'd have enough remaining to fill a thimble. So its probably gone for good.
Better yet it killed the Bladesinger and the Spellsword also. If I ever get to play again this is the class I would love to play. It itches my scratch when playing Fighters....(I must have spell magic somewhere).
Additionally, you could make a case for a Ninja class being a Ki Controller (especially if it focuses on mystical ninja abilities), though Ki Striker or Shadow Striker could work too.
How does a Ninja channel the power of his soul? How does what he accomplish differ from a martial Rogue?
My problem with Ninja for Ki is, Ki explicitly uses the power of the soul.
I think you are misunderstanding what draws power from the users soul means. Ki users are not tearing chunks of their souls off in order to power their abilities, but using the natural energy (Ki) created by their souls to perform supernatural feats.
Ki is not the power source that draws energy from animal or nature spirits; that's Primal. Ki is not the power source that draws energy from the spirits of the dead; that is probably Shadow. Ki is the power source that allows the user to draw power from their own soul.
How does a Ninja channel the power of his soul?
The same way a monk does. Through intense meditation, practice and concentration they have developed the ability to use the energy produced by their souls to power their mystical martial arts.
How does what he accomplish differ from a martial Rogue?
Do any Rogues you know of breath fire, dissolve into a puddle of living water, create gale force winds to blow away their enemies or cut lightning bolts* just because they are a Rogue? Probably not. But there are Ninja that were supposed to have done those things just because they were Ninja.
*Before anyone says anything about Naruto, let me point that all these abilities were attributed to ninja or ninja-like individuals long before the manga Naruto existed as an idea in its creator's mind.
Do any Rogues you know of breath fire, dissolve into a puddle of living water, create gale force winds to blow away their enemies or cut lightning bolts* just because they are a Rogue? Probably not. But there are Ninja that were supposed to have done those things just because they were Ninja.
That actually sounds like a posterchild for the Elemental power source. Not Ki.
So, Ninja for Elemental Striker!
That actually sounds like a posterchild for the Elemental power source. Not Ki.
So, Ninja for Elemental Striker!
And, bringing us full circle, I'm going to say, "Hey! What about Shadow Striker for Ninja?"
D&D has a tradition of presenting Ninja-classes as mystic pseudo-Rogues with the ability to turn invisible, insubstantial, teleport through shadows, and even become ethereal (or in 4E terms, "gain phasing"). Since D&D Ninjas have done this in the past, why not make it central to the Ninja class in the future, in 4E?
(The Shadow power source certainly doesn't preclude the use of elemental damage-types for some Ninja powers.)
Elemental
- Bonus: Striker: Monk
Huh? Monk's going to be a Ki Striker, not Elemental.
While we're talking about asian Elementalism, let's not forget that 3.5E's Wu Jen would be a shoe-in for Elemental Controller.
Agreed. Though it would have to be changed some to make it significantly different from wizard.
Agreed. Though it would have to be changed some to make it significantly different from wizard.
Really? I never played a Wu Jen, but what I can recall is that in 3.5E, the Wu Jen was significantly different from the Wizard. Hell, a ton of the spells (especially the elemental ones) from the Wu Jen's list were ripped straight from the Druid list rather than the Sor/Wiz list.
Really? I never played a Wu Jen, but what I can recall is that in 3.5E, the Wu Jen was significantly different from the Wizard. Hell, a ton of the spells (especially the elemental ones) from the Wu Jen's list were ripped straight from the Druid list rather than the Sor/Wiz list.
Still had spell book and vancian casting. It was basically a diffrently themed wizard.
Still had spell book and vancian casting. It was basically a diffrently themed wizard.
That's true, I suppose. Still, even then, a Wu Jen had to select his spells differently from a Wizard.
That's true, I suppose. Still, even then, a Wu Jen had to select his spells differently from a Wizard.
Not really slightly different spell list, but chosen the same way.
Not saying they will be "the same", but that there may be some kind of fluff connection.
I suspect there may be somewhat close ties between Martial, Psionic, and Ki, (body, mind, and soul) just like the close ties between Shadow and Arcane.
Not saying they will be "the same", but that there may be some kind of fluff connection.
Interesting angle. You could very well be correct, especially given, like you said, the tradition of relating Shadow and Arcane to one another.
Obviously, we're speaking in terms of fluff (and out of our butts) at this point. Still, I've been wondering if they're considering creating more mechanical uses for power source at some later point in 4E; perhaps this could include exploring combinations thereof.
Of Ki and Psionic, which would you say links Martial to Arcane? I'm gonna chart my guesses.
So Arcane was related to the feywild, being brighter and flashier, Shadow to shadowfell, and Primal to the Material World. Divine to the Astral sea, Elemental to the elemental chaos.
I realy wanted to link psionics to the plane of dreams, mentioned in a coupe of places, but that left me with Martial, Primal, and Ki al sharing the material world, so I gave up and remixed it.
Although, perhaps, the plane of dreams represents the cumulation of the mortal self? body, mind and soul? I dunno, that might be pushing it.
My theory actually related the non-mortal powers to the various planes.
So Arcane was related to the feywild, being brighter and flashier, Shadow to shadowfell, and Primal to the Material World. Divine to the Astral sea, Elemental to the elemental chaos.
I realy wanted to link psionics to the plane of dreams, mentioned in a coupe of places, but that left me with Martial, Primal, and Ki al sharing the material world, so I gave up and remixed it.
Although, perhaps, the plane of dreams represents the cumulation of the mortal self? body, mind and soul? I dunno, that might be pushing it.
Put ki as coming from the Bastion of Unborn Souls mentioned in the Draconomicon. Then that would leave Primal and Ki as being being from the world. You could then put martial as representing the "middle world"(that which is between divine and elemental). You'll end up with a couple of overlaps, but overall it would mostly work out.
My theory actually related the non-mortal powers to the various planes.
So Arcane was related to the feywild, being brighter and flashier, Shadow to shadowfell, and Primal to the Material World. Divine to the Astral sea, Elemental to the elemental chaos.
I realy wanted to link psionics to the plane of dreams, mentioned in a coupe of places, but that left me with Martial, Primal, and Ki al sharing the material world, so I gave up and remixed it.
Although, perhaps, the plane of dreams represents the cumulation of the mortal self? body, mind and soul? I dunno, that might be pushing it.
Ahh, I see what you were going for now.
...And I'm going to excuse myself from discussing it, because I personally don't think there any basis for trying to tie the mechanics of power sources to the cosmology, and because official sources have said as much. (I know, I'm splitting hairs here. Suffice to say, I'll leave this to you guys.)
Put ki as coming from the Bastion of Unborn Souls mentioned in the Draconomicon. Then that would leave Primal and Ki as being being from the world. You could then put martial as representing the "middle world"(that which is between divine and elemental). You'll end up with a couple of overlaps, but overall it would mostly work out.
If you're going to bring up the Bastion of Souls, you might as well bring up Incarnum.
I'm just sayin'.
If you're going to bring up the Bastion of Souls, you might as well bring up Incarnum.
I'm just sayin'.
Well, I don't know anything about Incarnum, but I know there's a groop that wants to see it folded over into the "new" Ki power source... so reflavor the place to a near-buddast feel, to make the monks fit in, and I suppose it would work...
Well, I don't know anything about Incarnum, but I know there's a groop that wants to see it folded over into the "new" Ki power source... so reflavor the place to a near-buddast feel, to make the monks fit in, and I suppose it would work...
You know, I almost hope they do add Incarnum's flavour to Ki. I mean, if you look at debates about Ki, it always comes back to, "Which classes are Ki classes?" and usually folks only agree about the Monk. To me, this indicates that, broadly speaking, there isn't a clear idea of what "Ki" is in D&D.
Since Ki and Incarnum share some thematic ground, ("soul power"), folding them together could expand the conceptual base for the power source. It would also leave other asian-inspired classes to better suited power sources; for example, Samurai as Martial, Ninja as Shadow, Wu Jen and Shugenja as Elemental, and so on.*
*Note: I'm not suggesting that all of those will be classes, nor that they necessarily should be. However, some folks will.
Primal would be connected to Martial obviously, but having not seen any of the classes/powers, I can't tell if it would also connect Elemental or qi/ki/chi (same concept, same pronunciation, different spelling). So for now my version of your chart:
That actually sounds like a posterchild for the Elemental power source.
Not Ki.So, Ninja for Elemental Striker!
If the Elemental power source was not listed in the PH1 you most likely say that those abilities fit more in the Arcane power source. In fact all but the ability to cut lightning is currently possible for Arcane characters, and an immediate interrupt power that allows a Swordmage to stop lightning attacks by cutting them is very thematic.
You do not seem to have a well developed idea of what each of the power sources are. This can lead to confusing what a class does (i.e. powers) with how a class does something (i.e. power source). In order for you to better understand, here are my personal definitions and interpretations of each of the power sources in no particular order:
Martial
The Charles Atlas(TM) power source!
The characters who have classes of this power source have practiced and developed their own natural abilities to the point where they are superhuman. All their abilities are completely natural and follow all the rules of the World.
All Exploits are are various tricky moves that the character has learned or developed over their life.
Arcane
Hello World Spell - A common introductory spell that makes the words "Hello World." either auditory or visually appear. Often one of the first spells an Arcane caster learns.
The characters who have classes of this power source have learned the secrets of altering the World. The way they learned how to do this can vary between self taught (Sorcerers) to making deals for information (Warlocks) to Academic learning (Wizards).
Each Spell is a specific program that modifies reality in some way.
Divine
I've got my god backing me up.
The characters who have classes of the Divine power source have been imbued with power from one or more gods. The character was imbued either by ceremonial anointment by the god's church (clerics and paladins) or (semi)directly by a god(s) (Invokers).
Prayers are thanks for and/or a request for an intersession.
Primal
I can hear the spirits of nature and they listen me as well.
The classes of the primal power source are in tune with nature and can call upon it to aid them. They draw strength from every animal and plant, unmoving mountain and turbulent sea, burning desert and icy tundra, and dense jungle and open steppe.
Evocations are a call for a portion of those primal energies to enter themselves or their allies.
Psionic
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Psionics is the power of the mind. Wielders of these powers can mesmerize and hypnotize, control emotions, read others thoughts, lift and move objects without touching them, ignite substances, cause water to rise up in the air like a snake and much more; all this by using only their minds.
Shadow
Just because a sword only made of shadow is not truly real does not mean it can not cut.
Shadow is the power source that lies between extremes. Between light and darkness, life and death, truth and lie. Necromancers give a pseudo life to the dead and a semi-death to the living. Illusionists craft facsimiles of real things that don't quite fully mimic the original; their shadow-fire causes skin to crack and blister yet gives off no light.
Ki
Every soul generates Ki, few understand how to actively control it.
Practitioners of Ki classes are mystical martial artists. Tapping into the energy generated by their souls (Ki) they can safely push theirs and others bodies beyond their natural limits. A true masters of Ki can do much more: move so fast that he leaves an afterimage, cut a boulder in half with a wooden sword, accelerate their natural healing to the point where they can regrow limbs, punch an opponent 30ft away without moving an inch, ignite their own breath, generate electricity around them, push others back by just releasing their Ki, disrupt the flow of Ki in others with a light tap.
Elemental
The Efreeti speak to me as an equal, and Archons wish to be my servants. - A human Sha'ir in the City of Brass
Elemental masters interact with the denizens of the Elemental Chaos and the primordial forces of creation. Sha'ir bind elemental spirits to their command while others have been lent a small portion of the power wielded by a Primordal.
Sorry for taking my time getting back to this, but I felt it was important to have a strong well written response....You do not seem to have a well developed idea of what each of the power sources are. This can lead to confusing what a class does (i.e. powers) with how a class does something (i.e. power source). In order for you to better understand, here are my personal definitions and interpretations of each of the power sources in no particular order:
And well written it was. I hope you don't mind if I add some of my own thoughts and a few examples. Some of these (*cough* ninja) will be given in different hues as befits their numerous interpretations. I'll throw in some class concepts too. Many of these will be old classes: please don't take that from a mechanics view point but from a background concept that can provide a firm starting point for a mechanical design.
Martial
The Charles Atlas(TM) power source!
The characters who have classes of this power source have practiced and developed their own natural abilities to the point where they are superhuman. All their abilities are completely natural and follow all the rules of the World.
All Exploits are are various tricky moves that the character has learned or developed over their life.
Examples:
-Ancient Greek heroes who were not related to deities or at least a few generations removed (Jason, Hector, Theseus, Atalanta).
-A ninja who plants a tree at the age of three and proceeds to jump over it every day.
-Batman, Indiana Jones, Porthos, Hiro Protagonist, Arthur Pendragon
Class Concepts
Striker - Rogue [Precision Damage, distractions, stealth]
Defender - Fighter [Combat Challenges, in depth familiarity with armor and weapon, hamstrings, bone breakings, etc.]
Controller (though there are major issues which would have to be overcome and some have argued very well that they couldn't and instead that defender is a type of controller) - Someone who does a lot of debuff effects with his attacks
Leader - Warlord [Inspiring Word, attacks with effects that aid allies, leading by example]
Arcane
Hello World Spell - A common introductory spell that makes the words "Hello World." either auditory or visually appear. Often one of the first spells an Arcane caster learns.
The characters who have classes of this power source have learned the secrets of altering the World. The way they learned how to do this can vary between self taught (Sorcerers) to making deals for information (Warlocks) to Academic learning (Wizards).
Each Spell is a specific program that modifies reality in some way.
Examples
-Oddly enough, most mythological examples come under the demesne of other sources (as you'll see with John Constantine).... Arcane, as some sort of overarching non-divine power that can change the universe is a relatively new concept: Merlin would be closest with his infernal heritage giving him powers though again that is linked to demons retaining some the divine powers to reshape reality associated with angels who could do it as part of the whole god-minion thing. Warlocks would be the best bet, but then there is a weird overlap between Warlock/Arcane and Warlock/Divine in mythology.
-The scholar who through study and experimentation has learned the command format to alter reality ("Two newt eyes+powdered silver+a wave of the hand like this+saying Stoozylis=I don't need glasses anymore! Hot date here I come!").
- A ninja who rewrites real...i...ty.... :what:
-Zatanna, Timothy Hunter
Class concepts
Controller- Wizard [Cages of force, sheets of ice on the ground, heating weapons to burn hands]
Defender - Swordmage (further evidence of Defender as similar to controller) [Magic shielding and marking, easy movement to allies, repositioning enemies]
Striker - Numerous variants on Swordmage or Wizard imagery, but a unique one is a bit harder. The easiest concept would be something with a lot of buff effects in its attacks - a combination junky as it were. This could be the new Duskblade (I'll do another post later on this...)
Leader - As above except buffs others. [Think a ranged Warlord]
Divine
I've got my god backing me up.
The characters who have classes of the Divine power source have been imbued with power from one or more gods. The character was imbued either by ceremonial anointment by the god's church (clerics and paladins) or (semi)directly by a god(s) (Invokers).
Prayers are thanks for and/or a request for an intersession.
EDIT:
Examples
- Samson, Simon Magus, Solomon
- A ninja who can jump over trees because divine spirits will carry them.
- Captain Marvel, John Constantine
Class Concepts
Leader - Cleric [Healing Word, attacks with beneficial effects]
Controller - Invoker [Divine spirits hampering enemies]
Striker - divine power in a damage dealing package (a variant on Paladin, et cetera) [Vengeance incarnate?]
Defender - Paladin ['nuff said]
Primal
I can hear the spirits of nature and they listen me as well.
The classes of the primal power source are in tune with nature and can call upon it to aid them. They draw strength from every animal and plant, unmoving mountain and turbulent sea, burning desert and icy tundra, and dense jungle and open steppe.
Evocations are a call for a portion of those primal energies to enter themselves or their allies.
Examples
-Wulfen, totemic warriors, druids.
-A ninja who can run up a cliff because the rock won't let them go.
-John Constantine, Poison Ivy, Animal Man
Class Concepts
Striker - Barbarian
Defender - Warden
Controller - Druid
Leader - Some variant on any of the above.
Psionic
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Psionics is the power of the mind. Wielders of these powers can mesmerize and hypnotize, control emotions, read others thoughts, lift and move objects without touching them, ignite substances, cause water to rise up in the air like a snake and much more; all this by using only their minds.
EDIT:
Examples
- Not many mythic examples of psychic powers...
- A ninja that mentally makes other people not see her.
- Martian Manhunter, Obi-Wan Kenobi (close enough...)
Class Concepts
Controller - Psion
Striker/Stealth - Mind Knife or Lurker
Striker/Raw oomph - Wilder
Defender - Psychic Warrior
Leader - Erudite
Striker
Strikers deal damage; more than any other class. Possible methods include: attacks which deal large amounts of damage, attacks with effects that increase the damage of further attacks, utilities which improve the character's combat potential, class features which allow the addition of damage in certain circumstances. Works well for any power type and can be either ranged or melee. Technically the simplest class to design mechanically while the hardest to make mechanically unique once the methods mentioned above have been used for other classes.
Defender
Defenders mitigate damage to other players either by preventing it (through shielding or debuffing) or taking it instead. Possible methods include: Marking opponents, utilities which allow the sharing of damage, attacks with protective effects for other players, attacks which debilitate enemies and lessen their attack options. Attacks run the spectrum of high damage/low effect to low damage/high effect with the exact class concept generally dictating how many of each and in what distribution that will occur (Fighter has a pretty even spread while Swordmage leans towards extremes of the spectrum). Technically works for any power type. Traditionally seen as a melee based archetype (due to the Tank archetype) though could technically be ranged (a City of Heroes Controller except with Defense as the primary power set and Control as the secondary would be an example of this.). Could be considered a mix of the defensive aspects of controller and leader (the enemy manipulation and debilitation from controller and the protective effects from leader).
Controller
Controllers manipulate enemies; in general, lessening the threat they represent. Thematic methods include environmental control (Grease, Field of Ice, Wall of Fire), directly effecting others (Hold Person, Waves of Fatigue, Doom, Slow), or creating unpleasantness (Heat Armor, Force Cage). Generally includes a mix of single target heavy debuffs (Dominate) and multi-target lighter debuffs (Color Spray) across a spectrum. Possible methods include: attacks create sustainable zones, attacks which put enemies under a condition for a turn or until saved, utilities which remove beneficial effects on enemies or prevent them from gaining said effects (enemy cannot gain combat advantage, allies may make immediate saves with a bonus - note there may be overlap here with Leader in terms of ending enemy effects). This class is traditionally ranged as melee versions tend to end up drifting into Defender territory.
Leader
Leaders take their party above their normal performance level and allow them to operate at peak efficiency throughout a battle. Possible methods include: attacks with beneficial effects for allies, utilities which increase the combat potential of allies or their ability to complete a skill challenge, class features which aid others. Note that "beneficial effects" covers a broad range of options: healing, increasing attack rolls, increasing damage rolls, increasing defenses, allowing immediate saves, granting tactical movement, et cetera. The exact class concept would dictate which effect style predominates. This archetype works equally well for range (Wisdom based cleric) and melee (Warlord).
Note that spellcasters in 3.5 could generally act as Striker, Controller, or Leader, or all three. Clerics tended towards Control and Leader, Bards towards Control and Leader, and Wizards could do all three depending on focus. While their 4ed counter-parts have abilities which stray from their assigned archetype these tend to be "classic" abilities which allow the player more range in character options (mirror image, brutal strike, flame strike).
[Consider: Barbarians deal extreme damage with attack abilities, Duskblade (or some other former buff and attack class) could deal extreme damage by building up to it, Soulknives could do extreme damage with utilities (all attacks for encounter do addition psychic damage or whatever), and Rogues do extreme damage while having combat advantage. That's primal, arcane, psychic, and martial covered. What do we do when we have to design a Shadow striker? From 3.x feedback we learned two very important facts: basically duplicating a class and adding new class features is frowned upon or one will be seen as/would be more powerful (Wizard/Sorcerer, Psion/Erudite, Rogue/Lurk)and that any class which is too unique is probably too far out there to make sense/attract players (Spellthief, Dragon Shaman). While some may disagree with the examples I've chosen the basic premise remains. It is my personal opinion that the spreading out of power sources and classes is WotC giving themselves time to consider and come up with solutions for such problems. If it turns out that there is no unique way to come up with an Elemental Striker (assuming such as thing would ever exist) after doing all the other strikers then the players should feel free to go the the DM and request a class tweak (Using Soulknife from above, for example, but instead of additional psychic damage, "my character calls upon the power of the Archons and deals an addition XdY Fire damage). In general, changing a damage type and a power source will not unbalance a class or power. The same applies, for example, for a Shadow Leader. Play a Cleric but change radiant to cold and/or necrotic (and possibly the key stats depending on how you view Shadow casting - Wis for Int, Cha for Wis or just keep Charisma if you see it as more arcane/formulaic). Channel Divinity becomes Manipulate Shadows, Healer's Lore becomes Adept's Lesson ("The Shadowfel is a dangerous place and the first lesson many who would want its secrets learn is to use the stuff of shadows to strengthen their constitution and draw vigor from it at need."), Healing Word becomes Cold Vigor. Sacred Flame could become Shadow Flame "The shadows form black flames which engulf and enemy while layering onto an ally to provide ablative armor or helping them overcome". 1d6+Wisdom modifer Cold damage to one creature and an ally gains temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier+half your level or may make an immediate saving throw.]
Power of the Gods vs power of the Primordials
Martial vs Psionic
Power of the body vs power of the mind
Shadow vs Primal
Power of death vs power of life
Ki vs Arcane
Power of somatic magic vs power of mental magic
Divine vs Elemental
Power of the Gods vs power of the Primordials
Martial vs Psionic
Power of the body vs power of the mind
Shadow vs Primal
Power of death vs power of life
Ki vs Arcane
Power of somatic magic vs power of mental magic
Wouldnt ki be more the power of spirit or soul? Mental magic would be more like psionics
Divine vs Elemental
Power of the Gods vs power of the Primordials
Martial vs Psionic
Power of the body vs power of the mind
Shadow vs Primal
Power of death vs power of life
Ki vs Arcane
Power of somatic magic vs power of mental magic
I see other links as well:
Arcane/Elemental - Both manipulate elemental forces but Arcane is an outward expression perhaps Elemental is an inward?
Shadow/Divine - What links tie the Astra Sea to the Shadowfell?
Ki/Martial - Inner energy flows and physical expertese binds.
Etc. I'd expect we'll see weird multiclassing based Paragon Paths in the future that tie power sources together.
As I was going through classes it occurred to me that one could provide a basic breakdown of common archetype mechanics.
That was a pretty thorough analysis.
Although, to simplify things, I think you can reduce it down to:Strikers - They deal damage, and lots of it.
Defenders - Absorb the brunt of an enemy's attacks and keep enemy's off the squishies by being sticky.
Controllers - Debuff enemies singularly or in groups, lots of AoE attacks
Leaders - Buff allies and heal (which could be argued as buffing)
Obviously there is some overlap. Defenders have some buff abilities that provide AC bonuses and the like to allies, many classes have debuff abilities, but they never do them as well as the role designed for them. i.e. a defender will never buff as well as a leader, no one debuffs as well as a wizard, a wizard will never be as high damage as a striker, etc.
Divine vs Elemental
Power of the Gods vs power of the Primordials
Martial vs Psionic
Power of the body vs power of the mind
Shadow vs Primal
Power of death vs power of life
Ki vs Arcane
Power of somatic magic vs power of mental magic
Pretty cool lens to look at things through!
I think Divine vs. Elemental needs to be broadened up a little bit, though. Perhaps "cosmic principles" vs. "spontaneous change" or "abstract" vs. "concrete." Ha...or maybe "Simple Rules" vs. "Many Exceptions" a la PH pg. 11.