And what would be the difference in having an article and just having a Compendium entry, anyways? They would be very, very similar to each other.
Open the compendium, search the class, then select the powers "tab." You can then sort by level, action, source, and alphabetically.
Im aware of that method of slogging through the options but I was hoping for something, ya know, easy to look at. Something printable.
Im aware of that method of slogging through the options but I was hoping for something, ya know, easy to look at. Something printable.
Alas, I doubt this feature will be readily available for two reasons:
First, programming a notable feature like ready printing of, say, all the 1st-level Wizards at-will powers, would take time and money. Time and money that Wizards of the Coast will prioritize in more important and popular tasks.
Second, such a programming feature goes against Wizards' current outlook which is "Digital distribution of our products burned us really badly because it was really piratable; we'll keep out D&DI stuff, which is hard to pirate, but we'll think about PDFs and whatnot later"
I highly doubt 'easy access for printing' will be available for a while
Last time I checked the article it's listed in the ToC of this month's Dragon
Yes it is listed in the ToC, but notice it is not in this months articles, but in with the update. It isn't an article. It wont appear as an article on the day it gets released(Jul 7th) because it will be available only as part of the update to the Compendium and Character Builder, as per a previous article mentioning such things back in may I believe.
You likely wont get access to this particular class before PHB3's debut if you aren't subscribed this month.
By Bruce R. Cordell
Featuring commentary from the staff that worked on the new psion class, this article supports the psion class debut in the D&D Character Builder and Compendium."
Yeah. Wonderful.
I'll just have to rip it from the compendium when it comes out, so its, you know, useful.
Wow. So no article? This is some bull. I guess ill be writing emails to WotC....
while i understand your point, when these PHB3 teaser previews were first announced there was a pretty big uproar that they would take up the precious Dragon space. So if they put in the magazine they will **** someone off, and if they don't put it in the magazine they will **** someone else off as well. I hope that they will at least have an article that is not the part of the magazine, but that might be just a pipe dream.
I hope that they will at least have an article that is not the part of the magazine, but that might be just a pipe dream.
Sadly if they did that we would still get people complaining about it taking away Dragon pages....somehow.
while i understand your point, when these PHB3 teaser previews were first announced there was a pretty big uproar that they would take up the precious Dragon space. So if they put in the magazine they will **** someone off, and if they don't put it in the magazine they will **** someone else off as well. I hope that they will at least have an article that is not the part of the magazine, but that might be just a pipe dream.
:lightbulb
Use Bill Slavicsek's idea from the first Ampersand!
I always thought we should have a magazine called “&”. After all, it worked so well for Dungeon and Dragon that it just seemed to me that we were losing an opportunity to make use of the bit that brings it all together. So, until we figure out what to actually do with that recognizable little ampersand, I’m going to use it as the identifier for my regular feature here at D&D Insider.
End of the month, collect all the Insider articles that aren't part of Dungeon or Dragon and put them in their own "&" magazine. As long as they keep the page counts of Dungeon and Dragon up to whatever they promised, people should be fine with it. (They should be, but yeah, of course people will complain. It's what D&D's all about!)
While I understand both sides of the issue with it being updated directly to the Character Builder, I must remind you that you will also get to see it in the compendium(Again, provided you are subscribed this month or are on a continuous subscription previous). As long as you have access to the compendium through your subscription igniz(and others who are concerned about this) there really should be no problem. A quick FYI for those who would like to have a pdf/stylesheet of the debut class, you can copy and paste text from the Compendium into a word file for yourself to print it off....though it may not be as nicely formated as WotC's articles.
You'd think we'd get that anyway. Because that's what we're sorta paying for.
You'd think we'd get that anyway. Because that's what we're sorta paying for.
I would fully agree if it was listed as an article with the 'DRA' preface to it. It isn't listed as an article though. This offering is something from what the WotC promised us to have access to through the subscription, materials that no one else can have access to without the subscription. It also wont be in the August update to either the CB or Compendium, so if you subscribed next month you will not get to look at the July debut offering.
What we are paying for is the ability to have access to Two magazines, the DDI Compendium+Updates, the Char Builder+updates, Bonus Tools: Monster generator, Encounter Builder and Ability score generator. As well as the future tools that are pending(which i, unlike so many others, have not given up on).
To bring this back toward the topic, the update is only 6 days away(not including today).
It also wont be in the August update to either the CB or Compendium, so if you subscribed next month you will not get to look at the July debut offering.
It won't be in the August update because it's part of the July update. I don't see any reason WotC is going to just remove it from the CB and Compendium come august.
Though maybe I'm just misinformed. If you have some source for these assumptions, please share.
"Player's Handbook 3 Debut: The Psion
By Bruce R. Cordell
Featuring commentary from the staff that worked on the new psion class, this article supports the psion class debut in the D&D Character Builder and Compendium."
Which seems to be referring to an article, but in the past TOCs have been inaccurate so it's hard to say. There's also a Design & Development Column devoted to Psionics which is different from this entry in the TOC.
The real question is whether that article is going to be the class itself with commentary on teh side or just an article full of commentary on the compendium material.
Why would this be a question. An earlier article stated that it would be the full class from the PHB3, the commentary is likely in addition to the full class.
Why would this be a question. An earlier article stated that it would be the full class from the PHB3, the commentary is likely in addition to the full class.
I missed that part where they said the article was going to be the full class. Saying the article "supports" the debut of the class in the compendium is incredibly vague.
Why would this be a question. An earlier article stated that it would be the full class from the PHB3, the commentary is likely in addition to the full class.
We are getting the full class, but there has been no mention of getting it in pdf format or as part of Dragon.
We are getting the full class, but there has been no mention of getting it in pdf format or as part of Dragon.
Because it is very likely that we aren't going to get it in pdf format or as part of the dragon magazine.
Bel
The Psion will be discussed in Dragon but there will not be a full PDF of the Psion.
If you want to read the giant list you can go to the MANAGE - Campaign Settings tab of the character builder and just click through the PH3 content.
It is actually a great way to see what is new each month.
As far as feats go, not much this month, no multiclass psion.
Great WotC, i cant use the character builder. Just give me a damn PDF.And what would be the difference in having an article and just having a Compendium entry, anyways? They would be very, very similar to each other.
If the Compendium has the same system requirements as the Character Builder, then it makes a BIG difference to those of us with Macs...
If the Compendium has the same system requirements as the Character Builder, then it makes a BIG difference to those of us with Macs...
To the best of my knowledge the Compendium has the same requirement as the rest of the WotC websight. Any Java capable browser should do the trick even if your system can't run the CB.
To the best of my knowledge the Compendium has the same requirement as the rest of the WotC websight. Any Java capable browser should do the trick even if your system can't run the CB.
That is right. I use the compendium quite often on the Safari on my iPod Touch, so I am certain any Mac User should have no problem at all with it.
Ryuna
That is right. I use the compendium quite often on the Safari on my iPod Touch, so I am certain any Mac User should have no problem at all with it.
Ryuna
Hmmm...it might be worth splurging on a 1 month subscription if that's the case!
Hmmm...it might be worth splurging on a 1 month subscription if that's the case!
So you can look at it for a month and not get a printable version??
So you can look at it for a month and not get a printable version??
I mentioned this before, you can copy&paste into a word file and print it off for yourself right from the Compendium. Additionally the compendium does have the option to print the formated class/power/feats after you've clicked on them to see the full text of the Class/power/feat etc.
Let me just add I am geeked to see what they give this class. I also can not wait to see how it will mesh with the Kalashtar race from Eberron.
I mentioned this before, you can copy&paste into a word file and print it off for yourself right from the Compendium. Additionally the compendium does have the option to print the formated class/power/feats after you've clicked on them to see the full text of the Class/power/feat etc.
Is there an option to print the entire class out at once with standard power format? Copying and pasting every power in the compendium into a non-formated file is a poor solution indeed.
Is there an option to print the entire class out at once with standard power format? Copying and pasting every power in the compendium into a non-formated file is a poor solution indeed.
That's the idea. If you could simply print out the entire classes (and other material) very easily, how do you expect WotC to make money on the books?
That's the idea. If you could simply print out the entire classes (and other material) very easily, how do you expect WotC to make money on the books?
The same way they plan on selling a compiled Dragon book despite the fact that you can print out every article that will appear there??
As far as i can tell they are not releasing the entire PHB3 through the DDI before the book comes out. There is still a huge incentive to buy the real book, even if you can print out a class or 2 as a subscriber. They arent really losing out by making a printable psion article, only making their service more user friendly.
Is there an option to print the entire class out at once with standard power format? Copying and pasting every power in the compendium into a non-formated file is a poor solution indeed.
I didn't say that it was a perfect solution. Just that it was possible. And if you have a program(Like I do) you can make an unofficial-PDF version that you can format and print. I haven't really done it, but I have the ability to do so if I really want to.
Is there an option to print the entire class out at once with standard power format? Copying and pasting every power in the compendium into a non-formated file is a poor solution indeed.
If there was many people wouldn't bother buying the books. From my understanding WotC has done its best to ensure DDi isn't a replacement for the books.
The same way they plan on selling a compiled Dragon book despite the fact that you can print out every article that will appear there??
I don't think WotC could survive on the numbers that the Dragon book is likely to sell.
If there was many people wouldn't bother buying the books. From my understanding WotC has done its best to ensure DDi isn't a replacement for the books.
They dont really need to make the compendium printable to make the PHB3 material useful though. A simple PDF would be fine, and since they aren't releasing the entire book through DDI there is still a huge incentive to pick up the final book. It ridiculous to make customers have to jump through hoops just to use material that they are paying for (copy + paste power by power, format, create PDF, etc...).
I can see where they're coming from. Piracy is still an issue for them, but piracy will impact them irrespective of the format they put the material out in.
Do you know why you can't find PH3 content in a nice printable format? Because they're going to do it for us, in PH3.
I don't know when you signed up for insider, but if the Promise that month was "Nice Printable Format of PH3 Content", then you can get in line behind the variety of people who have been disappointed by WotC Campaign Promises. But what is far more likely is it didn't say that; what it did say was that because we are DDI subscribers, in addition to the things that we're get as DDI subscribers, we get the chance to playtest PH3 content.
The reason we can print out Dragon and Dungeon magazines is because that content isn't available elsewhere. Even the compilation is just a best-of; much of the content does not exist in the realm of the physical if not for our own printed versions. It seems bizarre that you want to have a printed version of anything else; all of the other content can be purchased in books, as it rightfully should be. The compendium and character builder are not there for printing, either. The Compendium is a quick resource that can save hours of not having to search through AV to find the Boots of Mending +3, and the Character Builder is an essential tool to build a character without having to search through Martial Power for the latest powers for your Minotaur Fighter.
The idea that you believe your subscription entitles you to basically own Player's Handbook 3 a year in advance is ludicrous. When you buy the book, you don't buy it for the art, because if that were the case, they could just sell the artbooks; you buy it for the content. That we're allowed to peek at that content early is a privilege. That you think you're entitled to hard copies right now is a falsehood.
The idea that you believe your subscription entitles you to basically own Player's Handbook 3 a year in advance is ludicrous.
Total strawman. No one is asking to own the PHB3 a year in advance.
That we're allowed to peek at that content early is a privilege. That you think you're entitled to hard copies right now is a falsehood.
Its ridiculous to give us the entire content of the class to use but only in a highly inconvenient format. Its non-sensical. If you are going to give out material for use as part of service, it only makes sense to actually make it convenient to use for everyone.
Its ridiculous to give us the entire content of the class to use but only in a highly inconvenient format.
I've yet to meet anyone who thinks the Character Builder is an inconvenient format for people who actually own compatible software. There are those who own Macs, but the system requirements clearly say it only supports Windows. And even with that caveat, I know Mac users who do like and prefer the Compendium.
Putting out a PDF of the Psion wouldn't negate the PHB3
I'm not talking about the Psion or even PHB3. I was talking about the question
Is there an option to print the entire class out at once with standard power format?
Unless of course you think they'd create code functionality for this in the compendium solely for preview material.
I've yet to meet anyone who thinks the Character Builder is an inconvenient format for people who actually own compatible software. There are those who own Macs, but the system requirements clearly say it only supports Windows. And even with that caveat, I know Mac users who do like and prefer the Compendium.
The thing is that not everyone runs Windows. If they made a PDF they could give 100% of their paying customers a convenient way to use the material but instead they are choosing to make it needlessly inconvenient for a segment of their subscribers. They are putting out the material for use, and they could easily make it useful to everyone, but they are not.
Part of the issue here is that one of the big beefs people had when the DDI was first announced was that the material might not be yours to own, but would only be accessible as long as you paid WotC. WotC dealt with these concerns by giving us material in downloadable PDF format so that you can own your own copy on your hard drive. Fast forward to summer '09 and look what they are trying to institute: they are starting to put out material that you don't own like a PDF but can only access as long as you pay WotC. As soon as my subscription runs out and can no longer use the Character Builder (not that i can in the first place) then i also lose access to the psion.
The thing is if no one has a problem with this, if no one complains, then it may be a taste of the way new material is released in the future. WotC has big concerns about pirating and if they see that they can release "rentable" material and no one raises a fuss, it may become a matter policy when they decide to add new things to the DDI. For all we know they could be trying out this Compendium/CharBuilder release format as a test to see if they can get away with renting us material without anyone getting upset.
The thing is that not everyone runs Windows. If they made a PDF they could give 100% of their paying customers a convenient way to use the material but instead they are choosing to make it needlessly inconvenient for a segment of their subscribers. They are putting out the material for use, and they could easily make it useful to everyone, but they are not.
Whether or not the PH3 preview content is made available in the most convenient format is irrelevant. We're still getting it well in advance of the book's street date. This makes your complaints sound rather petty. It's like if someone gave you a free pamphlet full of useful information and than you complain that it's poorly bound and only in black & white.
I say, better inconvenient for some than not at all for anyone.
Part of the issue here is that one of the big beefs people had when the DDI was first announced was that the material might not be yours to own, but would only be accessible as long as you paid WotC. WotC dealt with these concerns by giving us material in downloadable PDF format so that you can own your own copy on your hard drive. Fast forward to summer '09 and look what they are trying to institute: they are starting to put out material that you don't own like a PDF but can only access as long as you pay WotC. As soon as my subscription runs out and can no longer use the Character Builder (not that i can in the first place) then i also lose access to the psion.
Wrong. The Character Builder is a fully downloadable utility. One installed on a computer it stays there unless the user chooses to delete it, same goes for the monthly updates.
Access to the compendium does require an active subscription, but there little stopping any individual from copying powers and class detail into the preferred word processor and saving it.
Lastly, the PH3 stuff coming out over the next few months is all PREVIEW content. It's a free perk for subscribers. The actual material will be fully available in nice convenient book format some time next year.
Whether or not the PH3 preview content is made available in the most convenient format is irrelevant. We're still getting it well in advance of the book's street date. This makes your complaints sound rather petty. It's like if someone gave you a free pamphlet full of useful information and than you complain that it's poorly bound and only in black & white.
This is silly for 2 reasons. First, if the pamphlet is part of a service im paying for, and all of the other pamphlets are nicely bound and in color, why wouldn't i wonder what the deal is with this one pamphlet when there is absolutely no reason it can't be nicely bound and in color just like everything else?
Second, the "its not ideal but at least we are getting it" attitude is a poor attitude to have in a consumer society. If we a buy a product and see that it can be made better, we should be telling the company that puts out the product that they should be making it with the same standards as the rest of the products we enjoy. Asking them to put out a PDF when everything else they make online is in PDF format isn't exactly shooting for the stars and simply rolling over and excepting a less than ideal business practice just reinforces WotC's concept that putting out rentable material is ok with consumers.
I say, better inconvenient for some than not at all for anyone.
Why not just make it convenient for everyone?? Its not like they have no ability to make a PDF. They literally have to lift a pinky to make it universally convenient to everyone.
Wrong. The Character Builder is a fully downloadable utility. One installed on a computer it stays there unless the user chooses to delete it, same goes for the monthly updates.
I wouldn't know since i can't use the Character Builder. It only exists on the compendium for me.
Access to the compendium does require an active subscription, but there little stopping any individual from copying powers and class detail into the preferred word processor and saving it.
Lastly, the PH3 stuff coming out over the next few months is all PREVIEW content. It's a free perk for subscribers. The actual material will be fully available in nice convenient book format some time next year.
And what exactly is stopping them from just putting it in a convenient format?
The thing is that not everyone runs Windows. If they made a PDF they could give 100% of their paying customers a convenient way to use the material but instead they are choosing to make it needlessly inconvenient for a segment of their subscribers.
I know I'm going to regret getting involved in this discussion at all, but they are "technically" releasing a pdf of the Psion. You just aren't going to be happy with it. *sigh*
And I now feel obligated to do this: If they release a pdf, then they'll be alienating the subscribers who don't have the ability to read pdfs! We can not ignore this large segment of the subscribers! Or what about those that don't have internet access! WotC must meet the needs of all the subscribers, so they must go out and hand deliver multi-language printed copies of the psion printed in both large size font and in brail. Only then will be able to conveniently deliver the psion to all subscribers, nevermind the lack of work that would be done.:P
The thing is that not everyone runs Windows.
There are emulsifier programs that allow the use of PC software in other program formats.
If you have an older Mac, step up and buy a cheap PC.
Just about any of these should be able to handle the CB.
This is silly for 2 reasons. First, if the pamphlet is part of a service im paying for, and all of the other pamphlets are nicely bound and in color, why wouldn't i wonder what the deal is with this one pamphlet when there is absolutely no reason it can't be nicely bound and in color just like everything else?
Not really. To extend the analogy, DDi is like a full color magazine printed on nice glossy paper, while the psion preview is more like a black & white pamphlet printed on plain paper and inserted as a free extra in this particular month's issue.
Seriously the psion is an extra. WotC doesn't have to provide it all. They could instead just make us all wait until the release of PH3, but they felt like giving subscribers something extra. Stop looking the gift horse in the mouth.
Second, the "its not ideal but at least we are getting it" attitude is a poor attitude to have in a consumer society. If we a buy a product and see that it can be made better, we should be telling the company that puts out the product that they should be making it with the same standards as the rest of the products we enjoy. Asking them to put out a PDF when everything else they make online is in PDF format isn't exactly shooting for the stars and simply rolling over and excepting a less than ideal business practice just reinforces WotC's concept that putting out rentable material is ok with consumers.
Again, the PH3 previews are bonus material, they are an extra special gift to thank insiders for supporting the service (plus a nice advertising gimmick to both drum up hype for the upcoming release as well as maybe encourage a few more potential subscriber to sign up).
Further more. WotC has every right to "rent" material. You want to own go buy a book, but DDi is a subscription service. If you don't like the service that they choose to provide than don't subscribe.
In other news, Tharag, you're going on my lurve list. =D
Great... the psion is back, absolutely bloody wonderful, and just when I was forgetting what all the weird, out-of-place classes looked like. *Sigh, I'd be happy with expanding the choices that are already available (i.e. More stuff for divines and classes that haven't already gotten new stuff, oh and I know about Divine Power BTW, I'm just making an example).
The Psion is no more out of place than the Warlock or Sorcerer or Invoker. And it's not alone. We're going to get at least 4 psionic classes, one of which is the Monk.
And you complain about wanting them to expand the other classes, then say you already know about the Power books, which are designed to do just that? Okay .....
The Psion is no more out of place than the Warlock or Sorcerer or Invoker. And it's not alone. We're going to get at least 4 psionic classes, one of which is the Monk.
And you complain about wanting them to expand the other classes, then say you already know about the Power books, which are designed to do just that? Okay .....
I am with CelticMutt on this one. How is a Psion out of place? They really have been in the DND culture for many years. I say if you don't like 'em don't play one. You the DM? Then let your players know they can not play that class. Personally I am coniving to have my character killed by my Dm so I can play one. :D
Great... the psion is back, absolutely bloody wonderful, and just when I was forgetting what all the weird, out-of-place classes looked like.
How is the Psion out of place?? It existed in the DnD rules many many years before the Invoker, Artificer and Avenger??
It has earned its rightful place in the game.....Psionics have long existed in the game.
If you don't like it, don't use it but don't say it is "out-of-place".
Does signing up for the internet these days come with a *FREE!* sense of entitlement as a bonus, or something?
No, humans come with a sense of entitlement preloaded into the OS.
I wouldn't know since i can't use the Character Builder. It only exists on the compendium for me.
Then you're knowingly paying for a service you can't fully benefit from. Why not whine and demand to have the avenger class in PDF? because hey, you can't benefit from the Character Builder!
Or maybe you could realise that when you paid for a service that isn't 100% compatible with your software, you'd be missing out on some of the benefits from that service. One such benefit is being able to download class and race data once and keep it forever in a format that makes creating characters easier.
No, humans come with a sense of entitlement preloaded into the OS.
True, but internment access seems to serve as a potent upgrade.
Certain countries/cultures of origin also seem to come-pre packed with additional self-entitlement as well.
Put the two together and the results are most unpleasant.
Hmmm, seems that they're taking a bit longer than usual to update. The new stuff is usually up by 11 my time. Almost midnight.
CB and Compendium updates are usually mid-day instead of mid-night Try again in about 10 hours.
Hmmm, seems that they're taking a bit longer than usual to update. The new stuff is usually up by 11 my time. Almost midnight.
The class build itself is coming in the CB. That's almost never updated before mid-afternoonish.
The article that is supposed to talk about the development I wouldn't expect until after the CB update, maybe not til Wed. or Friday even.
Curse your updating schedule, WotC! CURSE IT!
I thought at least I would be able to check it out the evening of Tuesday.
Nope. You should always add 1 day when trying to work out when something will happen in America (unless the specific time is actually important of course ;)). My players also said we'd get to see the Psion on Tuesday and I quickly corrected them.
but I hadn't expected the afternoon updates for the First-Tuesday Compendium Updates, especially since this is my FIRST WEEK in Japan.
Heh, yeah. It takes a bit of getting use to being on this side of the international dateline. The amount of times I either turned up a few hours early for or a few hours late isn't funny
Am i missing something on the calender or is there no actual article for psion, only an update to the character builder? If this is the case, this is incredibly lame.
WoTC never releases all the articles for each month at the beginning of it like should, but most likely as things become available when they feel like getting to it. Most likely based on passed experience they will release a pdf for psion as well as an update for the Builder.
EDIT: I can't wait to see it. I've been chomping at the bit since they announced it. I wish they'd have released it when they normally release articles and stuff. Seems sorta weird with the off-day release. Is fear of PDF leak the reason for it?
Am i missing something on the calender or is there no actual article for psion, only an update to the character builder? If this is the case, this is incredibly lame.
With the PH 3 previews being handled via the CB and RC, there's no reason for concern that actual Dragon/Dungeon content will be supplanted. So it's not as lame as it could be ;).
Great... the psion is back, absolutely bloody wonderful, and just when I was forgetting what all the weird, out-of-place classes looked like. *Sigh, I'd be happy with expanding the choices that are already available (i.e. More stuff for divines and classes that haven't already gotten new stuff, oh and I know about Divine Power BTW, I'm just making an example).
People like you irritate the crap out of me. I've always loved the flavor of psions but there is this distinct and irritating subset of DM's that have this absurd notion that psions are for modern campaigns. I can't even remember the number of times that I've been told that all the base rules and expansion books are fine and come up with an awesome, complex and interesting psion character only to have the DM scoff and say "Psions are for moderen games". /rant
The server is down right now, so hopefully they're putting up right now or something. :D
Right when my account ***** up and doesn't let me into the Compendium. I can access articles, but not the Compendium. :|
I hate you, WotC. But I love you too.
It's up in the compendium
And the Compendium's Down. :D It's the 4E launch announcement all over again.
Controler
Int primary, Wis and Cha secondaries
one build only (telephatic, Cha based)
ritual caster
no encounter powers but way to augment at wills
I had acces for a few minutes :
Controler
Int primary, Wis and Cha secondaries
one build only (telephatic, Cha based)
ritual caster
no encounter powers but way to augment at wills
They also gain at-wills instead of encounter powers
They also gain at-wills instead of encounter powers
Oh?
I had acces for a few minutes :
Controler
Int primary, Wis and Cha secondaries
one build only (telephatic, Cha based)
ritual caster
no encounter powers but way to augment at wills
Can't say I'm suprised by any of th.....wait no encounter powers?
......
Okay I'm heading down to the fall out shelter for a week or so. I'll be back once everyone on the forums is dead from the forthcoming flame wars. *runs for the hills*:P
Can't say I'm suprised by any of th.....wait no encounter powers?
......
Okay I'm heading down to the fall out shelter for a week or so. I'll be back once everyone on the forums is dead from the forthcoming flame wars. *runs for the hills*:P
can I join?
And this is correct ... Psions have no encounter powers ... instead they use power points to augment their at-will attacks. Power points refresh every rest. The class gains more power points at levels they would gain or swap out Encounter Powers.
They also appear to have tiered at-wills. You gain a third at-will at 3rd level, but instead replace at-wills at 7th, 13th ... levels, etc.
Why do Psions need a new mechanic for abilities, ie no encounter powers and "power points"? 4e finally created a system for describing character abilities that worked for all classes, from Fighter to Wizard, and now we need a new system for PH3? The Monk preview also featured new mechanics, but not as egregious as this. I thought the point of 4e was to simplify and streamline, but it looks like we are back to increasing the complexity with each book.
I dunno, to experiment and go beyond what other classes have done already. Explore new ground, be exciting, etc.
Seriously, I think this class is garbage. Please change this, WotC.
I dunno, to experiment and go beyond what other classes have done already. Explore new ground, be exciting, etc.
Also the concept of augmentable powers became a rather defining element of 3.5 psionics, as such I'm not entirely surprised to see it serve as inspiration for the 4E psion, though I would have never guessed that it would have been to this kind of extreme. Quite honestly I find this mechanic far more radical than the full-discipline of the monk class and find my self wishing that it was the psion that had been a playtest instead.
Also, while augmentations were something all psionc classes did back in 3.5, I really hope that it is a unique mechanic of the psion in 4E. I don't want to see it be the defining element of the psionic power source, especially since it would make it rather blatantly obvious that the monk was merely tacked onto the power source.
Wow, this sucks. I don't know why they had to go and turn everything on its head like this. What happened to getting rid of all the weird and unnecessary subsystems in 4e? What happened to getting rid of unnecessary complexity? What happened to making it easy to learn 4e?
Seriously, I think this class is garbage. Please change this, WotC.
Considering that the book is apparently getting ready to go typsetting and page layout and the other such stages, there is no time for them to change it. Especially since the entire class is based arond the idea. This is what we are getting for PHB3. The most changes you can hope for would be for them to fix any typos that may exist.
I dunno, to experiment and go beyond what other classes have done already. Explore new ground, be exciting, etc.
That is a weak reason to add new mechanics to an established system. A big reason why most people hated psionics in previous editions was because of the strange mechanics that were tacked on to support them. The only reason I can see for keeping this "tradition" is to make sure nobody wants to use them in 4e as well.
Holy Crap! That's a lot to take in, but wow, they sure play odd.
Wow, this sucks. I don't know why they had to go and turn everything on its head like this. What happened to getting rid of all the weird and unnecessary subsystems in 4e? What happened to getting rid of unnecessary complexity? What happened to making it easy to learn 4e?
While I somewhat agree, I still find it highly amusing that when 4E was new people complained that all the classes were too much alike, now that we're getting the first truly different class people are instead complaining that it's too different.
While I somewhat agree, I still find it highly amusing that when 4E was new people complained that all the classes were too much alike, now that we're getting the first truly different class people are instead complaining that it's too different.
I personally never had a problem with the similarities between classes. They all played differently, but there was a central mechanic that was shared between them (at-will, encounter, daily) and I really liked that. I hated the whole pile of subsystems we had back in 3e: magic, melee, psionics, incarnum etc. It was just a load of work to keep up with everything, especially when DMing.
Considering that the book is apparently getting ready to go typsetting and page layout and the other such stages, there is no time for them to change it. Especially since the entire class is based arond the idea. This is what we are getting for PHB3. The most changes you can hope for would be for them to fix any typos that may exist.
Too true. It's why now seeing the psion I find myself wishing that this is what we had gotten as a playtest and that it was the monk that was the first PH3 debut content.
Anyway, weren't you heading for the bomb shelter?
I see a lot of potential for abuse with the psion. You can just pour all your pp into one power and go nova to completely destroy a solo. One of the good things about having actual encounter powers was that your attacks were separated into nice "chunks" so you couldn't just combine them all into one attack like this.
You can only perform one augmentation per attack. So you can repeatly use the same augmented power against a solo, but you can't pour all of them into a single attack.I see a lot of potential for abuse with the psion. You can just pour all your pp into one power and go nova to completely destroy a solo. One of the good things about having actual encounter powers was that your attacks were separated into nice "chunks" so you couldn't just combine them all into one attack like this.
But you can't actually put "all" of your PP into one power. It limits you to a specific number (like 2 and 4 or 4 and 6). That's the big difference between this augmentation system and 3.5's. It's a lot more balanced in that augmented versions are essentially as strong as encounter powers at the same level. The point is that your At-Wills and Encounter Powers are one in the same. And you only possess up to 3 total at a time (compared to 2 At-Wills and 4 Encounters), making it flexible in one aspect but limiting in another.
Anyway, weren't you heading for the bomb shelter?
It is a fall out shelter, and I am hiding in it right now. But I installed a camera and mic earlier, so I could watch the carnage. :D Although I admit it is a little less than I was expecting....maybe it needs more time.
I see a lot of potential for abuse with the psion. You can just pour all your pp into one power and go nova to completely destroy a solo. One of the good things about having actual encounter powers was that your attacks were separated into nice "chunks" so you couldn't just combine them all into one attack like this.
This too. I don't really mind the idea of augmentable at-wills instead of encounter powers, but I would have preferred all powers to only have a single augmented form and for the class to max out at 4 power points (same as the number of encounter powers other classes get).
Also, how in the world is this going to work with the hybrid system (maybe half PPs?).
Although I admit it is a little less than I was expecting....maybe it needs more time.
Things will probably pick up once most people start getting home from work.
What I'm wondering is how this works with all the other classes...can a psion still take the novice power/etc. feats?
Also, how in the world is this going to work with the hybrid system (maybe half PPs?).
Ooh, good points. In all the commotion I hadn't yet had the chance to think that far my self. Maybe the psion really is nothing more than a pile of deranged madness.
What I'm wondering is how this works with all the other classes...can a psion still take the novice power/etc. feats?
Also, how in the world is this going to work with the hybrid system (maybe half PPs?).
Well I just used tried using the Character Builder and the Psion can take them but he doesn't get any benefit from the one for encounter powers. No idea if that is how it will be in the final version or not.
EDIT: Ninja'd! That will teach me to leave the computer mid-post.
I see a lot of potential for abuse with the psion. You can just pour all your pp into one power and go nova to completely destroy a solo. One of the good things about having actual encounter powers was that your attacks were separated into nice "chunks" so you couldn't just combine them all into one attack like this.
You can only dump 2 power points in a given use of a power, and the results are pretty much on the level of an encounter power, I'd say, so it still pretty much separates your attacks into the same chunks, except you could use half chunks instead if you want to.
What I'm wondering is how this works with all the other classes...can a psion still take the novice power/etc. feats?
Also, how in the world is this going to work with the hybrid system (maybe half PPs?).
I've thought of this too, and I honestly think it works out fine.
In the case of multiclassing into a Psion: If you gain the novice power feats, you essentially can get a new At-Will power - one that is probably better than your Level 1 At-Wills. And even if you didn't have any PP to augment them with, having a stronger At-Will power may very well be just as valuable as a regular encounter. My guess, though, is that the Cross-Class feat for Psions will grant a few PP.
For Hybrid, granting half the PP works too. Because I think the most you can augment into a power so far is 6 and the most PP you get normally is 15.
It seems like it'll all still work fine.
on another note, the damage of at wills is really low at high levels without augmentation. since this guy is a controller damage is not such a big issue, but if that system is used for a striker it might cause some issues.
You can only dump 2 power points in a given use of a power, and the results are pretty much on the level of an encounter power, I'd say, so it still pretty much separates your attacks into the same chunks, except you could use half chunks instead if you want to.
Whoops, self-correct, I just took a glance at the higher level powers. XD Apparently higher level powers have augments with higher point costs.
i wonder how this new system will interact with encounter power swap feats? if you can't take the encounter swap feat means you cant PMC.
I don't think a psion would ever want to PMC. PMCing is already a weak option, and a psion loses 33% of its encounter powers when PMCing.
Oh and the encounter power swap feat thing was already brought up(by I believe three people) on the previous page.:P
I've thought of this too, and I honestly think it works out fine. If you gain the novice power feats, you essentially can get a new At-Will power - one that is probably better than your Level 1 At-Wills. And if you didn't have any PP to augment them with, having a stronger At-Will power may very well be just as valuable as a regular encounter. My guess, though, is that the Cross-Class feat for Psions will grant a few PP.
For Hybrid, granting half the PP works too. Because I think the most you can augment into a power so far is 6 and the most PP you get normally is 15.
It seems like it'll all still work fine.
but with hybrids you have to pick powers from both classes. how does it work if you dont have encounter powers for one of your classes
but with hybrids you have to pick powers from both classes. how does it work if you dont have encounter powers for one of your classes
You would probably just get power points where you would normally have to take an encounter power if it were any other class.
but with hybrids you have to pick powers from both classes. how does it work if you dont have encounter powers for one of your classes
I imagine they'll have the hybrid psion get two psion at wills, and they take the slot of encounter powers of their level. Meanwhile you'll only get half the encounter slots you normally would get. Although I feel sorry for whoever has to word the rules for that.
but with hybrids you have to pick powers from both classes. how does it work if you dont have encounter powers for one of your classes
Again, a stronger At-Will could essentially be equivalent in value as a regular encounter power of the same level. So the system remains the same. It's just that when you're picking from the Psion powers, you're picking from the tiered At-Wills instead.
I just saw the Psion update in CharBuilder.
Holy Crap! That's a lot to take in, but wow, they sure play odd.
Did you get a different update of the Char Builder than I? The copy I got doesn't include the psion....
Did you get a different update of the Char Builder than I? The copy I got doesn't include the psion....
It's in the compendium, too.
I disliked the concept that a Human Psion looses the augments from his bonus AtWill.
I also wonder how a psion will be able to spend more than 2 to augment a power, and or augment a power via another mechanic. Because it is implied in the stuff in Character Builder that a psion can spend 4 or more points augmenting a power, AND that a psion can augment a power through some other means than the powers native augments.
Probably implements, but maybe feats and or utilities I just haven't seen yet?
EDIT: I went and looked at some stuff in the compendium. Some of the higher level at-wills go above 2 on the augments.
Did you get a different update of the Char Builder than I? The copy I got doesn't include the psion....
Click on the having problems link on the Character Builder splash(when you first open the program where it checks for new versions) and then repair your install.
Since this seems to be the final version, I guess I'll hit the psion with the ban-stick for the game I'm dming. I thought wizards would have learned their lesson after the making 3e psionics so different. I don't want to deal with all the hassle of having a whole new subsystem shoved into the game. Little differences like the druid's wildshape, the shaman's spirit, or the monk's full discipline are the right kind of changes, but this psion thing is way over the top and unnecessary.
But that's one of the things I loved about psionic in 3e: that they were so different! As a DM, I actually encouraged people to dip into the other systems for their characters. The last year-long campaign I DM'd, I had a psion, an Incarnate, a Truespeaker, a Binder, a Warblade (From the Book of Nine Swords), and a Legacy Champion (from Weapons of Legacy). If only I had a Shadow Mage, the campaign would pretty much have encompassed every 3.5 system there was. And it was the most fun experience I ever had as a DM!!
Don't be too afraid of new systems. IMHO, they keep things fresh, interesting, and are quite rewarding.
Where's a good place to report errors? None of the Psion's at-will damage increases at level 21, which is probably just an oversight, but if not, I'd like to hear the justification behind it.
The Cerulean Adept's powers have a couple major ones.
Harden Mind should be an immediate interrupt/reaction, but is listed as being a Standard Action.
Seal the Threshold has two Hit lines (one for half damage) instead of a Hit and Miss line.
Looks like "most" of the psionic power source classes will be using the Power Point system. I kinda like that the new power sources have some differentiation(unlike arcane, martial, primal and divine which seem to be different flavors of the same thing).
They don't mention hybrid at all and multiclassing is just mentioned in passing.
Click on the having problems link on the Character Builder splash(when you first open the program where it checks for new versions) and then repair your install.
Thanks!
I disliked the concept that a Human Psion looses the augments from his bonus AtWill.
Agreed. Giving humans an extra augmentable power might make them more versatile than intended, but I highly dislike the notion of forcing human PCs to distinguish between their "true" class at-will powers and their racially granted at will.
I might just have to house rule that.
I won't argue that this feels Psionic, but, honestly, it would not have been hard to do something similar with encounter powers, especially since most of the At-Wills are extremely similar from one level to another. Unfortunately, it also feels superfluous. ... And this is all coming from a guy who loves Psionics, and always has.
Let me be clear, I think the system will work fine and it looks like a Psionic system, but I also think that this will alienate groups that already have bad feelings about Psionics because it is, esentially, a new system that is actually fairly unneeded.
If the At-Wills had changed in significant ways from level to level (and I don't mean the Augments, which are really just Encounter Powers. I mean the actual At-Will portion.) it would have been a justifyable change, but the changes from level to level were minor.
At this point, the only thing that this new system has going for it is the fact that you can use the same "Encounter" powers over and over again, instead of being forced to use each individual one. That's completely Psionic ... but Wizards could do the same thing in 3E if they planned it that way, and Fighters could only keep doing the same thing over and over again in 3E. I guess I thought that using potent powers several times was a system that was left out of 4E ... and I'm not terribly happy to see it return.
Well, like I said, I'm conflicted over this. I love Psionics and I'm glad to have the Psion ... I just think that WotC made the wrong move. Maybe they talked about it a lot and feel pretty good about this move, but I still think it will prove to be the wrong one in the long run.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Harden Mind should be an immediate interrupt/reaction, but is listed as being a Standard Action.
I think that's intended to be used as a reaction to taking ongoing psychic damage, but making it an immediate interrupt or reaction would prevent that because you can't use immediate actions on your turn.
I do agree, it reads a bit weirdly, but that's what I surmise is the reason. Maybe I'm wrong and it was just a missed copy/paste error.
I'm conflicted over this. I like the new system. As new systems go, this is pretty easy to understand and implement. However, adding subsystems is what alienated people from Psionics in the first place. Do we really need people banning Psionics again?!
I won't argue that this feels Psionic, but, honestly, it would not have been hard to do something similar with encounter powers, especially since most of the At-Wills are extremely similar from one level to another. Unfortunately, it also feels superfluous. ... And this is all coming from a guy who loves Psionics, and always has.
Let me be clear, I think the system will work fine and it looks like a Psionic system, but I also think that this will alienate groups that already have bad feelings about Psionics because it is, esentially, a new system that is actually fairly unneeded.
If the At-Wills had changed in significant ways from level to level (and I don't mean the Augments, which are really just Encounter Powers. I mean the actual At-Will portion.) it would have been a justifyable change, but the changes from level to level were minor.
At this point, the only thing that this new system has going for it is the fact that you can use the same "Encounter" powers over and over again, instead of being forced to use each individual one. That's completely Psionic ... but Wizards could do the same thing in 3E if they planned it that way, and Fighters could only keep doing the same thing over and over again in 3E. I guess I thought that using potent powers several times was a system that was left out of 4E ... and I'm not terribly happy to see it return.
Well, like I said, I'm conflicted over this. I love Psionics and I'm glad to have the Psion ... I just think that WotC made the wrong move. Maybe they talked about it a lot and feel pretty good about this move, but I still think it will prove to be the wrong one in the long run.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
I completely agree. I wish WotC just stuck with the standard at-will, encounter, daily format.
This too. I don't really mind the idea of augmentable at-wills instead of encounter powers, but I would have preferred all powers to only have a single augmented form and for the class to max out at 4 power points (same as the number of encounter powers other classes get).
Er...actually, it doesn't appear to work that way. take even the highest level power, like Concussive Detonation. You have a maximum augment of 6 points, out of the possible 15 at that level. And the difference is +1d8 damage and stunned instead of slowed.
You could do that twice before running low on points. Hardly a nova, imo.
Agreed. Giving humans an extra augmentable power might make them more versatile than intended, but I highly dislike the notion of forcing human PCs to distinguish between their "true" class at-will powers and their racially granted at will.
I might just have to house rule that.
The wording's a bit tricky, too. It says that Humans (and non-Psion Half-elfs) lose the augments, but retains the Augmentable keyword. It says it's unaugmented when you use it, but you can augment it.
Maybe that just means that unless you're part of a class that has Power Points, you can't gain the extra benefits of the at-wills?
I won't argue that this feels Psionic, but, honestly, it would not have been hard to do something similar with encounter powers, especially since most of the At-Wills are extremely similar from one level to another. Unfortunately, it also feels superfluous. ... And this is all coming from a guy who loves Psionics, and always has.
Indeed. There probably could have been a way to retain the flavor of augmentable powers while keeping to the standard power format of other classes.
Maybe something involving a new twist on the old psionic focus ability. Expending ones psionic focus was another mothod of augmenting in 3E.
Or maybe the psion's encounter powers would all be augments instead of attacks. They'd still get the same number and types of powers as other classes and each augment could have it's own unique boon, but their encounter powers could only be used in combination with other attack powers rather than on their own.
You have a maximum augment of 6 points, out of the possible 15 at that level.
17, actually, unless you don't choose a Paragon Path that gives you Power Points at 11th level. Which you should, from what I can see.
This too. I don't really mind the idea of augmentable at-wills instead of encounter powers, but I would have preferred all powers to only have a single augmented form and for the class to max out at 4 power points (same as the number of encounter powers other classes get).
Er...actually, it doesn't appear to work that way. take even the highest level power, like Concussive Detonation. You have a maximum augment of 6 points, out of the possible 15 at that level. And the difference is +1d8 damage and stunned instead of slowed.
Yes, I know that's how it works. I was suggesting an alternative based on how I wish it worked instead. Under that alternative each power would only have two forms (unaugmented or augmented) with all augments costing the same.
Did you get a different update of the Char Builder than I? The copy I got doesn't include the psion....
I had the same problem. I repaired the program and then everything was updated correctly. /shrug. Just click on "Having Problems" when you first load the problem and then click Repair.
Admittedly, it's just a first glance, but man, this looks too cool for words.
At last, we agree on something. I think it's been about two years since the last time that happened...
I really look forward to seeing the other starting build. Assuming there are just two.
Also, I'm a little annoyed, because is it just me, or did anyone else get the impression from all the lead in to this that we would be getting the WHOLE class as a preview, not just one build? They really gave me that impression.
But I like what I've seen so far.
:OMG! 
:lightbulb How are they going to follow this one up? I'm excited and confused at the same time. I'll have to really think about this class. I'm pretty much in a state of shock. This really blew the 4E system out of the water.The multiclassing and hybrid character options are going to get messy. These are what I am most interested in. I'm going to just speculate how the MC Novice Power feat might work.
The idea should be to swap out something for something similar in power level. It appears that a psion, at-will power of a particular level at full augmentation (using the max power point cost) is equivalent to an encounter power of that level of another class. If you are a psion and you swap a level 3 at-will with a level 3 encounter of another class, you should lose that at will and lose 2 power points. The level 3 at-will's maximum augmentation is Augment 2. A psion of level 4 who took the Novice Power feat to swap Id Insinuation for Color Spray will have only 2 power points left. If are level 14 and you swapped a level 13 at-will for a level 13 encounter instead, you would lose that at-will plus 4 power points. You would now have a level 13 encounter power of the class you MC into and only 3 power points (5 if you took a psion PP).
Multiclassing into a psion would say would be like this. You swap your encounter power to gain an at-will of the psion of the same level or lower. You can only use the at-will as an encounter power. When you use the psion encounter power, you can use any of the Augment options without needing to spend power points.
If we assume that other psionic classes (other than the monk) also have power points, multiclassing from one psionic class to another would be the same. You lose the power points and replace an at-will with an at-will of the other psionic class, but can only use the other class's at-will as an encounter power. You still get to use that power using any of the augmentation options without having to spend power points.
Hybrid psions and hybrid psionic classes is going to be more interesting. Since we have not seen any other psionic classes yet, we do not know whether or not they will also have the same power point progression. I am going to assume that other psionic classes that use power points will have the same power point progression.
I think that the hybrid psion will allow you to pick one at-will. The first time you use the encounter power slot to choose a psion power, you gain the second at-will. After that, you simply replace a psion at-will with a psion at-will of a higher level. Your power points will be exactly 1/2 that of a psion. If you hybrid two psionic classes that uses power points, your power points should be the same as a single class psions. I assume the power point progression is the same for all psionic classes that use power points. The hybrid psion will also get the psionic augmentation class feature.
Well, that my shot at how I would handle multiclassed and hybrid psions.
Also, I'm a little annoyed, because is it just me, or did anyone else get the impression from all the lead in to this that we would be getting the WHOLE class as a preview, not just one build? They really gave me that impression.
It was stated pretty clearly in the original announcementthat it would be only one.
You're going to see one build from up to five new classes, a few new races, feats, and other surprises from Player's Handbook 3.
The only thing that kinda disappointed is that the Send Thoughts is an encounter power instead of an At-Will power.
Yay finally can make a telepath and combine that with Kalashtar - very yummy indeed!
Yay finally can make a telepath and combine that with Kalashtar - very yummy indeed!
The only concern I have is with the Kalashtar you get +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom, so it was not as strong for Psion as I thought it would be. Still not a bad choice. To Max it seems Tiefling would be a cool way to go.
The PHB3 is going to be a very strange book.It looks alright, but I just hope that this isn't just another in a long line of radical mechanical changes that once again results in Psionics being considered "optional" or "weird" compared to other classes using more established design concepts.
Although it really brings up the, "Wow, wouldn't it be cool if all classes worked like this?" thing again. I remember for the longest wishing that 3E spellcasting used the Psionics power point system (UA spellpoints were lame in comparison).
Is the brunette in the PDF wearing chain, though? Perhaps the armor proficiencies were dropped when the hula-hoop implement was dropped as well.
While I suspected that power points would be used in some way, removing the encounter powers was a big surprise. I hope we'll get a psion FAQ or podcast in the near future to address questions, especially those involving multiclassing.
They sure have kicked off this exclusive final content show with a bang. I'm expecting next month's githzerai release to be quite sedate by comparison.
Overall it seems to work out despite the odd dropping of encounter powers. The character sheet puts the power points box by default at the bottom of the list of powers which I guess is okay though I think it should be (and luckily can be customized to be) on the front page with other 'high use' stats.
As for the one who commented about the powers not levelling up at 21 it's because by 21 you shouldn't be using either 1st level at-wills anymore since you'd have upgraded them to newer ones. It takes getting used to since this is the first class which replaces their at-wills.
Hybrids and MC could be tricky and that may be where we run into some balance issues with psionics classes (especially if the mc feats/rules try to handle MCing between psionics classes that have the PP system and classes without the PP system as the same).
Changelings and tieflings are the 'optimal' races for psions currently since they both can get cha and int, though that's for the current telepath build. The other build will work best with other classes since it'll be int/wis most likely.
Also, I'm a little annoyed, because is it just me, or did anyone else get the impression from all the lead in to this that we would be getting the WHOLE class as a preview, not just one build? They really gave me that impression.
You weren't the only one who got that impression, but it was the wrong one. After the original announcement of debut content, a few people seemed quite shocked when I pointed out the "single build" part to them; I assume it was because folks were so excited about getting a new class, after all. Still, reading carefully is important.
...Speaking of reading carefully, I don't know if anyone posted this yet, but one of my favorite things about this debut content article (bearing in mind that I think it's awesome overall) is that it's piracy resistant. Idiots pirating this article are going to be pretty miffed when they realize that all power descriptions have been replaced with links to the compendium, which their torrent tracker can't help with. Suckers.
Finally, I think the illustration is pretty cool, except for the Psion in it. That's quite an ugly person. I like William O'Connor's people better. (The Mind Flayer looks okay though.)
Wow, this sucks. I don't know why they had to go and turn everything on its head like this. What happened to getting rid of all the weird and unnecessary subsystems in 4e? What happened to getting rid of unnecessary complexity? What happened to making it easy to learn 4e?
Seriously, I think this class is garbage. Please change this, WotC.
Thankfully, this is not a playtest, so they won't be changing it.
That is a weak reason to add new mechanics to an established system. A big reason why most people hated psionics in previous editions was because of the strange mechanics that were tacked on to support them. The only reason I can see for keeping this "tradition" is to make sure nobody wants to use them in 4e as well.
If that were the reason, then WotC failed miserably, because I love the class and will definitely play it.
If that were the reason, then WotC failed miserably, because I love the class and will definitely play it.
Seconded!
Wow, this sucks. I don't know why they had to go and turn everything on its head like this. What happened to getting rid of all the weird and unnecessary subsystems in 4e? What happened to getting rid of unnecessary complexity? What happened to making it easy to learn 4e?
Seriously, I think this class is garbage. Please change this, WotC.
No, in this case, the subsystem isn't unnecessarily complex, because it uses the existing framework of powers to accomplish something unique, familiar to fans from 3E, and still relatively simple to use. This isn't more elaborate than the system of rages available to Barbarians, or the spirit companion rules for Shamans.
PS: WotC probably thinks that you're garbage. On behalf of them, I ask you to please change yourself, Black_Knight999. :P
No, in this case, the subsystem isn't unnecessarily complex, because it uses the existing framework of powers to accomplish something unique, familiar to fans from 3E, and still relatively simple to use. This isn't more elaborate than the system of rages available to Barbarians, or the spirit companion rules for Shamans.
Exactly right.
PS: WotC probably thinks that you're garbage. On behalf of them, I ask you to please change yourself, Black_Knight999. :P
Harsh. Deserved, but harsh.
Harsh. Deserved, but harsh.
It's firmly tongue-in-cheek sniping, and I hope Sir Black_Knight999 takes it with humour.
Think about classes in 3.x; Psions and spellcasters were more similar to each other than spellcasters were with "martial" classes. Enter 4E, where even Fighters and Wizards operate using the same basic structure while still retaining the flavor of the classes! But Psionic had to be different (they always do).
Here's an alternative which functions pretty much exactly as I gather the Psion functions (no DnDi, so I can't be sure), but stays in line with the current system:
Psions get encounter powers, but one of their class features is that they can use them multiple times (they can use the same # of encounter powers per encounter as other classes, they can just use powers multiple times if they wish). To simulate spending 1 pp (powerpoint, as opposed to PP for Paragon Path) instead of 2 to augment at-will with the Psion as is, instead they could have given each encounter power an additional entry (let's call it Mild Powers, which is lame I know but I can't think of anything cooler right now). To use Mild Powers you expend the use of one encounter power (free action) in order to gain two uses of any mild power you know (and each of your encounters would have a downgraded mild power version). Same gosh-darn effect, right? Except it's consistent with the other power sources (so 4E remains the streamlined thing of beauty that it is). No keeping track of power points. No changing out at-wills. Less mess over multiclassing/hybrid classing. They still get their schtick, but now in terms of divergence from the basic system it's more in line with the Druid (special powers can only be used in beast form), Shaman (powers interact with spirit companion), and Barbarian (Rages gain additional effects and buffs which last the entire encounter). Heck, you want to still keep the Psion's ability to augment? Give it something like the Barbarian's Rage Strike as well (expend an encounter power to allow your at-will to do this extra thing).
It took me 5 minutes to come up with that. And it's more parsimonious than WotC's new subsystem. Why complicate things when you can achieve the same effect using the existing framework? To provide the illusion of novelty?
End rant. It's not like anything is going to change at this point with PHB3, but PLEASE don't use future power sources as an excuse to complicate things ever further! I guess it is what it is at this point and if it works then whatever. If nothing else it seems like it'd be pretty easy to "re-flavor" how you describe the Psion's abilities (more or less what my example did) in a manner more consistent with the existing system.
Hmmm...so they have fewer unique powers, but they can use "encounter" powers multiple times per encounter. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me, but I guess I'll wait to see it in action before I pass judgment. The new sub-system does kind of irk me though. Part of what I love about 4E is that it's so easy to explain to new people who've never played DnD before (in comparison to 3.x, at least). Now it's just a little more complicated if Psionic classes are figured into the mix. I understand that augmenting at-wills is functionally not that different from using encounter powers, but if that's the case then why change the system at all? ...
I agree with this. I like the Psion's powers; but I'm oddly troubled by the fact that to me, it seems like the designers are very proud that they created the Augment system to replace the Encounter powers they took away in order to create the Augment system. The class traverses no actual new ground to me, which is why I wonder at the elimination of Encounter powers.
Hell, your idea would fit into the Full Disciplines model, in a way: a single encounter power that is either one Big Hit, or two uses of a downpowered version. It's substantially the same as the current Psion without another point resource to track, and without breaking the At-Will/Encounter/Daily model (something else the designers were, IIRC, super proud of).
One of my favorite things about Psion is some of the power names harken back to the powers from AD&D psionics...brings back memories.
I believe, given the description of the power source, that the other build will be the Tekekinetic Psion, using Int as primary and Wis as secondary stats.
It really doesn't overcomplicate the way the system works, it just alters how it works. I find the pp system actually a bit easier to manage than a lot of the divine classes 'this at-will can only be used as many times a day as you have a Wis modifier' and similar (which mentally looks better with the new build they showed that had a daily power that could be used multiple times rather than making an at-will not really an at-will).
The other problem with doing the encounter power method is that most of their encounter powers would just be rehashes of the at-wills with an extra die of damage. Also different at-wills at higher levels have different pp costs to augment and each at-will has 2 levels of augmentation. One just boosts the side effect rather than damage so isn't quite an encounter power. The second level of augmentation adds another die and boosts the side effect so gives the at-will the strenght of an ecounter power, at the cost of an ecounter power (level 1 you get 2 pps and the second tier augmentation for the at-wills cost 2pps so you get one full augmentation or two half-augmentations per encounter).
The advantage of this system over the old is that like other classes in 4e they don't "run out" of powers to use so can always use their powers at a basic level. Making encounter powers means they'd get at most 2 uses of the power than couldn't use it the rest of the fight. This way they can always use the power but about once or twice a fight they can give it some extra oomph as needed. It's the same amount of power as other classes in the end, just a different choice of tactics. Do you pump up fully for the extra damage, will just the enhanced side effect do, or will the default power level work fine for now.
Daily powers still work the same as every other class and aren't tied to the pp system. Without a PP that adds pp's at level 30 you only have like 17pp so it's not like you have to worry about some huge pool you have to monitor throughout the day. The pp count resets on a short rest so in all it's really even easier to track than hp and healing surges.
To each his own. I don't care if my players want to play Psions or any Power Point-using class, but I doubt I'll ever play one. Them and Druids...not interesting.
Agreed: it's not any harder to manage than other classes (the Sorceror or Vestige Warlocks strike me as far more annoying and fiddly); I just don't think it's all that interesting a mechanic. There are lots of ways to do interesting; this doesn't do it for me.
To each his own. I don't care if my players want to play Psions or any Power Point-using class, but I doubt I'll ever play one. Them and Druids...not interesting.
I actually think it is a unique system. I can not really say until I play it but I like the idea. I guess I will know in about a month when I can play the next Friday night delve at my FLGS. Why did I have to offer to DM the next one! Argh! I could be playing the Psion in just about 2 weeks! Oh well.
Has anyone else had problems with the character builder being down?
Mine claimed to be down earlier, but it downloaded the update just fine regardless. (I assume you mean the update server; if the Character Builder itself isn't working, it's your computer that's messing up, not anything on the intertubes.)
However, on the same forum I see people saying that a class "looks amazing" and saying they "love this class," yet I rarely hear the same argument used against them.
Well, for all of you who love the Psion, YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED IT YET!!!! :D
LOL! By the way, please take that as tongue in cheek. I'm still quite conflicted about the class, I really can't say whether I love it or hate it. I simply can't decide until I see it in play.
I am, however, worried that people will dismiss it as wierd in this edition just as they have in the past. Oh! I really hope that isn't the case!
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
POWER POINTS????!!?!?!?!??!?!?!!!!?!?!?!
That is not cool, there are NO power points in 4E.
Have fun explaining that to a new player, or trying to keep track of it as a DM.
I'm not sure what they're trying to achieve with Psion but does it really require POWER POINTS!?!
Or maybe the psion's encounter powers would all be augments instead of attacks. They'd still get the same number and types of powers as other classes and each augment could have it's own unique boon, but their encounter powers could only be used in combination with other attack powers rather than on their own.
This makes a lot more sense than power points, why couldn't they have just done that?
just typing the words "power points" makes me sad. It reminds of the ending of the movie Chinatown; if you've seen Chinatown just think of power points as the creepy old man, Psion as the poor little girl being abducted by the old man, and 4E is the lady trying to protect the girl who gets shot in the eye, and I'm Jack Nicholson.
Until someone can explain to me why bringing back this outdated sub-system was good idea, I will consider WotC's act of doing so highly unforgivable.
It is as if the cosmos itself is preparing soldiers for some future catastrophic war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrd2xf5DIlU
While I somewhat agree, I still find it highly amusing that when 4E was new people complained that all the classes were too much alike, now that we're getting the first truly different class people are instead complaining that it's too different.
People who were defending the streamlined classes are perfectly justified in complaining when WotC tacks on new and complicated systems for the sake of having new and complicated systems.
Unless you can find an instance where a particular person whined about the streamlined classes and are now whining about new and bizarre ways of detailing new powers, its rude to assume someone is whining simply for the sake of whining.
Having said that, I don't consider this to be too big of a depature from the traditional classes. Its certainly a bigger than earlier other "new systems tacked onto 4th ed", such as:
* Beast Companions for Rangers in Martial Power.
* Spirit Companions for Shamans in PHB2.
* Summoning in PHB2
* Familiars for Arcane classes in Arcane Power.
* Vestiges for Warlocks in Arcane Power (I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around this pact)
* Domains for Divine classes in Divine Power.
But I don't think its any more complicated then say the Sorcerer from PHB2. And like the Sorcerer, I rather like this new system. Having "half encounter" powers and "full encounter powers" is certainly nice. As a psion I also essentially get 2 encounter powers and I get to choose which one to use each combat.
The tactical options that come with the powers also promotes not going nova in the first round (as people often do in LFR). does everyone in the party want to use their daily? Wait a round and I'll the enemy a -2 penalty to all of its defences. I'll also action point and take advantage of this too.
Am I surrounded without anyway to get out? Encounter power makes me invisible to everyone I hit, lessening the number of opportunity attacks I should provoke.
ALSO there is nothing psionic about the term "power point." Sure its outlined in the Psionic Augmentation part of the class description. But I see no reason we couldn't have a divine augmentation section for a class somewhere down the line that reuses the power point system.
i wonder how this new system will interact with encounter power swap feats?
It could grant a particular version of the power like the human extra at-will and the elf dilettante powers. Only instead of limiting you to the most basic version, you could only get the best version as an encounter power. E.g. You can get Betrayal Augmentation 2 as an encounter power. It gets around not having power points.
Psions get no encounter powers, but get buffable at-wills, and get three at a time.
3 at a time? Is my Character Builder robbing me a power? Because I've only got 2 at-wills and 1 daily. Or did you mean beyond level 1?
People who were defending the streamlined classes are perfectly justified in complaining when WotC tacks on new and complicated systems for the sake of having new and complicated systems.
Unless you can find an instance where a particular person whined about the streamlined classes and are now whining about new and bizarre ways of detailing new powers, its rude to assume someone is whining simply for the sake of whining.
And it's equally rude to assume I was accusing anyone of being an unappeasable whiner. My amusement wasn't directed at any individual posters, but at the community as a whole, making it more an admittance of the truth that it is impossible to ever please everyone.
In fact, while I'm not being overly vocal about it, I would count myself among those who enjoyed the uniformity of previous class and am disappointed to see a new sub-system being introduced. My personal position however doesn't prevent me from finding the whole situation amusing.
And it's equally rude to assume I was accusing anyone of being an unappeasable whiner. My amusement wasn't directed at any individual posters
Normally when someone is quoted, what follows is directed to that person. For example this post and the one you just made yourself. Its also standard practice to state when it isn't directed at a particular person to help avoid confusion.
but at the community as a whole, making it more an admittance of the truth that it is impossible to ever please everyone.
Fair enough. I've seen people say similar things on internet forums (including this one) in an attempt to shutdown criticism.
Normally when someone is quoted, what follows is directed to that person. For example this post and the one you just made yourself. Its also standard practice to state when it isn't directed at a particular person to help avoid confusion.
Maybe, but my response still started with a mild agreement, and when talking about complaints I specifically used the term "people" (plural), which should have made it obvious that my comments weren't directed at any one "person" (singular).
when talking about complaints I specifically used the term "people" (plural), which should have made it obvious that my comments weren't directed at any one "person" (singular).
it didn't for me at least. However I'm sorry if I offended or annoyed you.
it didn't for me at least. However I'm still sorry if I offended or annoyed you.
Apology excepted, though I'm not sure if I was really all that offended or annoyed, though I likely felt your criticism was out of proportion. More so I just wanted to make my position clear.
Lynch: People who were defending the streamlined classes are perfectly justified in complaining when WotC tacks on new and complicated systems for the sake of having new and complicated systems.
Streamlining D&D remains a powerful gaming design strategy. Despite the reasonability of the new Psion system, design consistency is good for 4e in the long run.
Along with Alien and others, I prefer, if possible, a system that 'expends power cards', rather than bookkeeps power points. Even if Psion Encounter cards are only for augmenting Atwill cards, Id still rather have actual Encounter cards.
Im not fully satisfied with how the Daily powers encourage a '5-minute workday', encouraging the party to sleep the day away to recharge the Dailies.
Instead of a 6-hour 'extended rest', allow a 1-hour 'power nap' or 'siesta' to recharge the Daily powers. That way, flavorwise, the rest of the day can feel more productive, while still keeping the same mechanic.
Trickier but perhaps more fun - remove the rest requirement altogether, and simply require the expension of an Action Point to cast a Daily power. Maybe wake up each day with one Action Point, but acquire Action Points slightly more frequently. Itd be cool for the DM to be able to give them out as rewards for good gaming.
Anyway, for me, Daily powers are the slightly troublesome mechanic. Encounter powers are the mechanic that really works well. Designers should think twice before having the Psion eliminate them.
On a side note about the universal mechanic: Atw/Enc/Dai.
Im not fully satisfied with how the Daily powers encourage a '5-minute workday', encouraging the party to sleep the day away to recharge the Dailies.
Instead of a 6-hour 'extended rest', allow a 1-hour 'power nap' or 'siesta' to recharge the Daily powers. That way, flavorwise, the rest of the day can feel more productive, while still keeping the same mechanic.
Alternately, remove the rest requirement altogether, and simply require the expension of an Action Point to cast a Daily power. Maybe wake up each day with one Action Point, but acquire Action Points slightly more frequently. Itd be cool for the DM to be able to give them out as rewards for good gaming.
Anyway, for me, Daily powers are the slightly troublesome mechanic. Encounter powers are the mechanic that really works well. Designers should think twice before having the Psion eliminate them.
Oddly, my group has never considered Dailies to be particularly precious resources (that is, they won't stop simply because their dailies are expended; they'll happily go into battle without any), I've seen that issue mentioned before (as well as the issue that at-will and encounter are very mechanical concepts, but "daily" is a narrative concept, and it makes dailies not-quite-fit).
That said, I totally agree: encounter powers are totally solid design, and I thought it was weird to dump them only to replace them with what is effectively identical.
Designers should think twice before having the Psion eliminate [encounter powers].
They thought twice, and they went ahead anyway. Not only is the Psion not a playtest (meaning that what we see is here to stay), but it's also not missing it's Encounter powers; that functionality is hidden in the Power Points mechanic.
That said, I totally agree: encounter powers are totally solid design, and I thought it was weird to dump them only to replace them with what is effectively identical.
That's the beauty of the Psion: he only appears to be missing Encounter powers. He's more versatile, but he doesn't have more powers nor the ability to use more powers than other characters, nor is he missing any of the firepower.
Of course, if all psion "per encounter" powers were in fact "augmentations" ala the sort of powers written for the assassin multiclass power swap feats in the Art of Assassination article in Dragon Magazine, I suppose that would work just as well. You can choose between your higher level or lower level augmentation per encounter powers. You wouldn't be able to use the same power more than once, but, *shrug.*
I don't know. I am pretty ambivalent as of right now. On one hand, I like how it evokes the flavor of AD&D. On the other hand, I don't like the fact that its adding a new subsystem instead of finding an innovative way to use the old one (such as giving the class per encounter powers that augment at-will powers instead of per encounter powers that are powers in their own right).
While I definitely see valid points as to why people believe Wizards should maintain 4th Edition's simplicity, there are also a representation of people from the D&D masses that believe 4th Edition is "too simple" and are crying for some "new and innovative" systems. Instead of completely ignoring this crowd, they started breaking the mold, little by little with each PHB iteration.
The beauty of a game like D&D is that it's not stagnant. It evolves. And while I know there are those who are turned off at the very thought of something "strange" and "new" coming into their game, there are plenty of pioneer gamers who greatly appreciate the intricacies that things like the augmentation system brings to the table.
Some people choose to fear change, while others choose to embrace it. For me personally, I find the latter to be far more rewarding.
Some people choose to fear change, while others choose to embrace it. For me personally, I find the latter to be far more rewarding.
Then there are those who embrace any change whether or not its an actual improvement ;)
If there was a way to turn at-wills into encounters by having encounter powers that require the use of an at-will, I think that would have been a worthwhile system. For example an augmenting encounter power could be:
Confounded Attack
Encounter * Psychic
Free Action
Trigger: When you successfully hit on an attack with an at-will, apply the effect for this power.
Effect: 1d10+Intelligence modifier psychic damage and the target takes a penalty to all defences equal to your Charisma modifier.
Is that just as good as the power point system? I don't think so. But hypothetically if it was just as good, I'd have preferred it to the power point system.
That's the beauty of the Psion: he only appears to be missing Encounter powers. He's more versatile, but he doesn't have more powers nor the ability to use more powers than other characters, nor is he missing any of the firepower.
See, that's where it's strange to me: if he only appears to be missing encounter powers, why didn't they just let them have encounter powers? It's not that I think it's bad design; I think it's pointless design.
Like I said, if one of my players wants to be a psion some day, more power to them. But to me, the design is...silly.
I'm not happy about what I'm reading on this thread; I have not had time to check it out for myself yet, I will have to look it over before I rush to a... then again, screw it.
POWER POINTS????!!?!?!?!??!?!?!!!!?!?!?!
That is not cool, there are NO power points in 4E.
Have fun explaining that to a new player, or trying to keep track of it as a DM.
I'm not sure what they're trying to achieve with Psion but does it really require POWER POINTS!?!
This makes a lot more sense than power points, why couldn't they have just done that?
just typing the words "power points" makes me sad. It reminds of the ending of the movie Chinatown; if you've seen Chinatown just think of power points as the creepy old man, Psion as the poor little girl being abducted by the old man, and 4E is the lady trying to protect the girl who gets shot in the eye, and I'm Jack Nicholson.
Until someone can explain to me why bringing back this outdated sub-system was good idea, I will consider WotC's act of doing so highly unforgivable.
You and your players are unable to do basic math? Did you abandon hit points because subtracting the damage taken was too hard for you?
See, that's where it's strange to me: if he only appears to be missing encounter powers, why didn't they just let them have encounter powers? It's not that I think it's bad design; I think it's pointless design.
I think the key word that doctorhook provided in your quote was "versatile." That's what makes it slightly different from the encounter powers without it necessarily being "more powerful." I find that far from pointless.
I think the key word that doctorhook provided in your quote was "versatile." That's what makes it slightly different from the encounter powers without it necessarily being "more powerful." I find that far from pointless.
Well...I dunno. Some versatility at the cost of a fairly drastic change in how things work. I realize that a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, but I think it would have been easy enough to build versatility into the psion without abandoning a well-established mechanic or coming up with a roundabout way to the same place.
Can't explain why this arrangement bothers me, but it does.
There is also greater versatility with the way augmentation is done. Some powers are area effects when augmented and single target effects when not. It's like having Scorching Burst and a Scorching Ray.
You have greater versatility within the same power since you can use it up to 3 different ways. You can also use the same augmentation multiple times while other classes cannot use the same encounter power more than once in an encounter. What you lose is some versatility in the form of number of different powers. Other classes get at-wills which are different and encounter powers which can be very different than the at-wills.
If most of the other psionic classes also use power points, I can see some potential effects where multiple psionic characters combine their psionic power points together to create a single effect. The odd power point that psions gain at level 13 seems to be made to encourage psionic players to do this. If two psions have only 1 pp left, one can transfer the one point to the other so that the other can augment an at-will to 2.
Along with Alien and others, I prefer, if possible, a system that 'expends power cards', rather than bookkeeps power points. Even if Psion Encounter cards are only for augmenting Atwill cards, Id still rather have actual Encounter cards.
Print between two and seventeen (depending on level and paragon path, probably more once epic destinies get added in) cards that say "Power Point" on them, just like your Action Point cards, then add those to your character deck. Problem solved.
You and your players are unable to do basic math? Did you abandon hit points because subtracting the damage taken was too hard for you?
If I wanted a complicated game with a bunch of sub-systems to keep track of, I would go play 3.5
* Beast Companions for Rangers in Martial Power.
* Spirit Companions for Shamans in PHB2.
* Summoning in PHB2
* Familiars for Arcane classes in Arcane Power.
* Vestiges for Warlocks in Arcane Power (I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around this pact)
* Domains for Divine classes in Divine Power.
Power Points may not be complicated by themselves, but when you throw them on top of a system that had nothing at all like it to begin with but could also easily produce the same thing using precedented concepts, I sound minded person would ask "why?"
These examples only add a new twist on concepts already within the game, they're not sub-systems that make it so the class can't even multiclass or take the Adroit Explorer PP.
If nobody can even come close to telling me why they added power points to game, then I'm not even going to bother looking at the class.
If nobody can even come close to telling me why they added power points to game, then I'm not even going to bother looking at the class.
There are two reasons:
1. Tradition. The design article, IIRC, basically says that power points were part of 3rd edition psionics, and the designers thought they should carry forward.
2. They felt like changing it.
Until someone can explain to me why bringing back this outdated sub-system was good idea, I will consider WotC's act of doing so highly unforgivable.
Having a night to think on it, it could be a twist on the Barbarian's rage. Instead of using a Daily and pumping up all your attacks, your Power point boosts one specific attack.
Now, if I was trying to design a class like this, I'd make the encounter powers slightly weaker than the norm, but make the Power Point augmentation slightly better than the norm.
But I'll have to see it in play first to get a feel for it. Hopefully, it'll play similar to other classes, even if its engine is different.
If I wanted a complicated game with a bunch of sub-systems to keep track of, I would go play 3.5
Power Points may not be complicated by themselves, but when you throw them on top of a system that had nothing at all like it to begin with but could also easily produce the same thing using precedented concepts, I sound minded person would ask "why?"
These examples only add a new twist on concepts already within the game, they're not sub-systems that make it so the class can't even multiclass or take the Adroit Explorer PP.
If nobody can even come close to telling me why they added power points to game, then I'm not even going to bother looking at the class.
Power points are in the game for the same reason that wizards still have spellbooks, and still memorize daily spells and utility spells. Because they have been a feature of psionic classes since their earliest introduction in the D&D game. Power points are no longer the primary resource of psions, and are no longer a per day resource, just like wizards no longer use vancian magic, and no longer memorize daily and per encounter spells. However, power points are used as a per encounter resource, instead of per encounter powers, in order to capture the feel and flavor of psionics that has been present since day one.
Whether that is a good thing, or a sacred cow, I don't know. As of right now, I'm on the good thing size of things... but I must admit that I am a little on the fence. But if you want a reason about why they added power points to the game, that is the reason.
Also Psions do get some encounter powers, just not as part of the class levelling, where instead they add a third at-will at level 3 and replace them with more powerful at-wills later (which is why the at-wills don't automatically powerup at level 21). Their psionic focus class feature gives them encounter powers as do the PPs and as would MCing and going hybrid. The trick is how that will affect the power point pool which is fairly small and resets after each combat. It really isn't any more book keeping for the psion than tracking which encounter powers have been used for another class.
There are two reasons:
1. Tradition. The design article, IIRC, basically says that power points were part of 3rd edition psionics, and the designers thought they should carry forward.
2. They felt like changing it.
dont mind changes but doing it because of tradition is stupid.
dont mind changes but doing it because of tradition is stupid.
Ironically, tradition is usually the reason why people don't change something.
Like having each class use the same at-will/encounter/daily power system.
Ironically, tradition is usually the reason why people don't change something.
Like having each class use the same at-will/encounter/daily power system.
That system makes sense though and puts everyone on the same level. Im still not sure about the psion using PP just becasue they always have seems odd.
Until someone can explain to me why bringing back this outdated sub-system was good idea, I will consider WotC's act of doing so highly unforgivable.
They didn't bring back the PPs of old. They recycled the name, and that's...about it.
All PPs do is give psions the ability to choose from multiple encounter powers each day instead of being locked into one, or multiple toned-down encounter powers. They key, however, is that their encounter powers are a selection of specialized, more potent versions of their at-wills. With this in mind, psions have a more limited selection of overall effects, but a more open ability to USE those effects when needed.
The implementation, from what I can see, is actually quite clever to accomplish the above goal. It works much better than whatever else they could have chosen (i.e., a list of Encounter powers, each with a prerequisite of having a specific at-will, or something similar).
They didn't bring back the PPs of old. They recycled the name, and that's...about it.
All PPs do is give psions the ability to choose from multiple encounter powers each day instead of being locked into one, or multiple toned-down encounter powers. They key, however, is that their encounter powers are a selection of specialized, more potent versions of their at-wills. With this in mind, psions have a more limited selection of overall effects, but a more open ability to USE those effects when needed.
The implementation, from what I can see, is actually quite clever to accomplish the above goal. It works much better than whatever else they could have chosen (i.e., a list of Encounter powers, each with a prerequisite of having a specific at-will, or something similar).
This is something that could have been done with Full Discipline style encounter powers, too (that's how I would have done it - standard action encounter power, and have an augment cost you your minor action; or perhaps just do a 2-use lightweight version of Enc. power, or a 1-use heavy-hitter).
This setup is clever. Absolutely. But it's just a way to achieve Encounter powers for the psion yet make it look different on paper.
It's just not the only way, and the designer's stated reasons for using it feel thin to me.
Think of it this way:
If each Encounter power was used in conjunction with an At-Will power, providing an extra benefit, that would work in a similar manner (in fact, it would be more flexible, which is what we want for Psionics anyway).
Also, if a Psionic character's Encounter powers were written "Special: You may use this power multiple times during an encounter, but may only use psionic focus powers [Encounter Powers] 1 time at 1st Level, 2 times at 3rd Level, ect," it would be extremely similar.
In short, introducing Power Points into 4E is superfluous. We don't need it because we already have a system for handling these things. It is alienating people who already think that Psionics is wierd, and it is bugging people like me who thinks that Psionics is great, but also thinks that the 4E system can accomplish nearly any class concept.
Well! There it is.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Rending Thoughts
You tear into your foe’s mind, weakening their defenses.
Encounter * Augmentable, Implement, Psionic, Psychic
Attack Technique
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: one creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Hit: 2d10 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and target takes a -1 penalty to all defenses until the end of your next turn.
Augments
Minor Action
Penalty to target defenses is equal to your Charisma modifier (save ends).
Move Action
You slide the target 1 space.
Done - augmentable powers (say, for example, you can choose one augment), still in the familiar AW/E/D format, no new resource management. I'm not saying it's The Right Thing, but there were so many options - adding yet another system doesn't seem like the right choice.
Streamlining D&D remains a powerful gaming design strategy. Despite the reasonability of the new Psion system, design consistency is good for 4e in the long run.
Along with Alien and others, I prefer, if possible, a system that 'expends power cards', rather than bookkeeps power points. Even if Psion Encounter cards are only for augmenting Atwill cards, Id still rather have actual Encounter cards.
Then grab some blank power cards, equal to the number of power points you have, and instead of subtracting numbers, discard cards.
I just want to point out that I'm not upset at Power Points, per se, I'm upset that they made a system of Power Points when it would have been easy to accomplish something similar with encounter powers.
Not with the limitations. Not really. Well, that is, without explicit prerequisites (i.e., "Requirement: You must know the at-will power")
Think of it this way:
If each Encounter power was used in conjunction with an At-Will power, providing an extra benefit, that would work in a similar manner (in fact, it would be more flexible, which is what we want for Psionics anyway).
That is the whole point, though. Psions get MORE at-wills, AND their at-wills themselves advance more than other classes as you proceed through the game. In exchange, their encounter powers are more limited, such that they are virtually always more potent versions of their at-wills. What's more, psion dailies appear to be slightly toned down compared to other controllers, but only slightly.
Also, if a Psionic character's Encounter powers were written "Special: You may use this power multiple times during an encounter, but may only use psionic focus powers [Encounter Powers] 1 time at 1st Level, 2 times at 3rd Level, ect," it would be extremely similar.
No, it wouldn't. Because then you'd have characters with at-wills and encounter powers that are entirely different in effect. That's the whole point of this particular design structure.
Consider. A regular psion has three at-wills, generally (A human psion has FOUR at-wills, generally). What's more, they have three different weakened encounter-esque powers they can choose from many times per day. Whenever they need to use a full-powered or weaked encounter power, they get access to their full three much earlier than other classes, and can REUSE their encounter powers multiple times per encounter (this is very significant). However, all of their encounter powers are limited by their at-will choices.
Now. Try to accomplish that more succinctly and elegantly using encounter powers.
I'm not happy about what I'm reading on this thread; I have not had time to check it out for myself yet, I will have to look it over before I rush to a... then again, screw it.
Here it comes...
POWER POINTS????!!?!?!?!??!?!?!!!!?!?!?!
That is not cool, there are NO power points in 4E.
Actually... *looks at the Psion class* ... there are power points in 4e. But there's no crying in baseball.
Have fun explaining that to a new player, or trying to keep track of it as a DM.
Basic math is your friend.
I'm not sure what they're trying to achieve with Psion but does it really require POWER POINTS!?!
Apparently.
If I wanted a complicated game with a bunch of sub-systems to keep track of, I would go play 3.5
It's not complicated, nor is it a sub-system. It still functions as 4e.
If nobody can even come close to telling me why they added power points to game, then I'm not even going to bother looking at the class.
Then don't. Anyone who watches these boards already knows you hate new classes and power sources. I think anyone saying Invoker still sends you into apoplectic fits. :P
Just stick to the PHB1 and don't worry about later supplements. i think you'll be much happier. ;)
Not with the limitations. Not really. Well, that is, without explicit prerequisites (i.e., "Requirement: You must know the at-will power")
That is the whole point, though. Psions get MORE at-wills, AND their at-wills themselves advance more than other classes as you proceed through the game. In exchange, their encounter powers are more limited, such that they are virtually always more potent versions of their at-wills. What's more, psion dailies appear to be slightly toned down compared to other controllers, but only slightly.
No, it wouldn't. Because then you'd have characters with at-wills and encounter powers that are entirely different in effect. That's the whole point of this particular design structure.
Consider. A regular psion has three at-wills, generally (A human psion has FOUR at-wills, generally). What's more, they have three different weakened encounter-esque powers they can choose from many times per day. Whenever they need to use a full-powered or weaked encounter power, they get access to their full three much earlier than other classes, and can REUSE their encounter powers multiple times per encounter (this is very significant). However, all of their encounter powers are limited by their at-will choices.
Now. Try to accomplish that more succinctly and elegantly using encounter powers.
I'm sorry. I fail to see the difference. I read your post very carefully, and I can't help but think that you just skimmed mine. I put in my post that they were reusable. I said that they would be used in conjunction with At-Wills. The only difference I can see is that you would always be using Encounter level abilities rather than half-Encounter level abilities.
Yeah, that's a difference, but allowing you to use those Encounter abilities with any At-Will would easily balance that out. It would be different from 3E powers, but spells work different too.
Try an Encounter Power like this:
Psionic Focus: Expanded Thought
Encounter (Special) * Psionic, Psychic
Free Action
Trigger: When you use a ranged At-Will Power.
Effect: The triggering At-Will Power deals +1d6 psychic damage and becomes an Area burst 1 within 10 squares power.
Special: You may use this power multiple times during an encounter. However, you may only use Psionic Focus powers once per encounter at 1st Level, twice per encounter at 3rd Level, and three times per encounter at 7th level and above.
Simple, and, just like Channel Divinity, eventually we won't even read the Special line. It would just be there for noobs. Granted, we're not talking exactly the same effect as Augments, but the effect is similar and keys off of the At-Will, expanding it and, forgive me, augmenting it.
Obviously, the At-Wills would need to be reworked to make this kind of power balanced, but I think the point is fairly clear. It gets across the feel of the class without creating a new subsystem. I believe they would play extremely similar, as you can mix and match which Encounter Powers to use with which At-Will. As it is, your choices are either fairly slim or all of your choices are extremely similar.
Again ... I don't see the difference between what you want Psionics to do, what it does, and what this system I just created off the top of my head can do. The main difference is that one uses the 4E mechanics already laid out, and the other makes a new subsystem because it can.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Again ... I don't see the difference between what you want Psionics to do, what it does, and what this system I just created off the top of my head can do. The main difference is that one uses the 4E mechanics already laid out, and the other makes a new subsystem because it can.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
What I want it to do? Did I once say what I wanted it to do? No, I certainly did not, nor do you have any idea what I want psionics to do.
Read what I wrote again. It forces your encounter powers to specifically focus on precisely what your at-wills focus upon, in a more powerful manner. This is pretty important. Rather than getting to choose from a disparate set of abilities that have considerably larger variance from your at-wills, it focuses your encounter powers more.
Your encounter power provided as an example, I notice, specifically avoids this rather key part of the mechanic, and also leaves less design space, and more abuse potential. If an augmented power forces an opponent to, say, attack one of their allies, and all of the augmented abilities likewise ONLY allow this to affect one target, what does your proposed system do? Allow this specifically and purposefully limited effect to a
Make an augmentation encounter power with a single status effect, like, say, dazed. Now, EVERY at-will a psion ever gains access to, even if psion never gain level-gated at-wills that scale with level, cannot be abusive with dazed or it cannot be created. Now, add in a slide. Again, you can NEVER make ANY psion at-will in ANY book, EVER that can be abused with a slide. If it is, that at-will is ineligible for inclusion in the game.
All this is with the simple assumption that psions gain at-wills at level 1 like everyone else, and that is it. Add in gated, scaling at-wills like WotC did. How much more are those abilities limited in design contrainsts? Enormously. Certainly, many of the at-wills we've been provided would not be allowed to exist.
What's more, how many of these augmentations does your system allow for in a class structure? You've now blanket-applied a burst 1 to the entirety of at-wills for a psion. That took up 1 encounter power. Try to make an ability for EVERY status effect in the game, and ALL potential buffs and debuffs, forced moves, et al. Just how many of these encounter powers do you think you'll have left? Can you fill out a full 28+ different encounter powers? Can you do so without creating abusive combinations? How much design space have you left for future books to cover?
Now...add one more psionic class. Repeat all of the above. How similar or different do you think it will look from the psion itself?
That is the tip of the iceberg. The system you propose is not nearly as open as you might think.
The current system totally uses the 4E structure. It simply reorganizes it slightly. That's it. It is NOT an entirely new system, and it leaves a LOT more design space open.
As it turns out, the current At-Wills for the Psion don't really do many different things anyway! Stating that my encounter powers don't have many places to go is rediculous. With At-Wills balanced to this particular type of Encounter power, it is completely workable. If the designer paid attention to what each At-Will could do, abuse could be shrunk considerably.
Take a look at most Encounter powers compared against At-Will powers. I am having a simple time taking effects of the Encounter and tacking it onto an At-Will for similar effects. While there are certainly some things you would have difficulty accomplishing, each class doesn't need to do everything, so it doesn't matter that the Psion couldn't do X power, because the Psion only needs to use its own powers.
Frankly, your argument plays just as well against power points as it does for power points. And, to be honest, I'm certain that I could do just what you ask me to do. Would it be a walk in the park? No, but class creation never is.
Once again (and I can't believe that you have me arguing against a system that I don't hate), I don't mind the Power Point system. My game will operate just fine with Power Points. My argument, plain and simple, is that WotC could have done this with Encounter powers instead with reletively little extra fuss. They have made the Psion different simply for the sake of being different, and that is what I dislike.
If you wouldn't mind, please stop trying to defend this. It's taking up far too much time to answer your every qualm.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
And then I read the rest of the class and got a feel for the system and saw how the encounters are largely hidden and not really gone, and kind of got the feel for it and was much happier.
The one thing that still bugs me, and I mean really bugs me, is how mc and hybrid will work. Because the psion blatantly and completely doesn't fit into it as written at all. And that upsets some sense of order of the whole of 4E, its exactly why the at will/encounter/daily/utility system works so well; it allows completely different classes to have elements sufficiently in common that they can be combined into something that still resembles a normal character at the end.
But reading this thread, I've realised something else. IF WotC had used encounter powers rather than power points, to preserve the system, what ever they used (ie all of the alternatives proposed) would have still completely broken multi-classing and been pretty bad for hybrid. So yeah, your psion has encounter powers, so power swap feats work again! Woohoo, but I don't have a psion at-will to augment. So that's no use. Of course you could stretch it further to fix this, but you'd lose the whole point of what WotC wanted the class to be in order to get there. And none of the alternatives are any less confusing, even if they eliminate the pp book-keeping in favour of encounter cards.
So here's the bottom line: Yes, it's different. Yes it's more radical than anything else (although vestige & beast companions aren't as far off as most people think, imo). And yes, there are a lot of mc and hybrid concerns to be addressed. But the system works, it isn't that complicated or that radical, and it is probably as elegent as any system which achieves the same things.
And more importantly than anything, while many argue the sacred at/e/d/u system shouldn't be violated, I can think of no argument as to why it shouldn't beyond it being 'off-limits' because you say so. Keeping it wouldn't have gained anything other than a sense of consistency, and maybe stretching isn't such a bad idea once in a while.
Final thought: flavourly, all characters can be expressed as a combination of four fundamental classes re-flavoured as required: the fighter, the rogue, the cleric and the wizard. So why have more classes? Because mechanically they are interesting. And whatever's to be said, the psion is mechanically interesting, more so than any new class before it. Other psionic classes will almost certain use pp's (the feat is the give-away, how many parties have two controllers of the same class?), but whose to say how they'll use them?
I, for one, am looking forward to finding out...
Psion Novice: Gain 2 PP/tier, lose encounter power
Psion PMC: swap at-will for at-will
PMC feat: gain 2 PP
The current system totally uses the 4E structure. It simply reorganizes it slightly. That's it. It is NOT an entirely new system, and it leaves a LOT more design space open.
You say that, but then I hear something like...
Then grab some blank power cards, equal to the number of power points you have, and instead of subtracting numbers, discard cards.
and I think you are either lying, confused or just crazy.
It's a sub-system.
People seem to think that I don't like new things; but what the truth is, it's that I don't like old things, I don't like 3E or 2E or any other outdated "traditional" things. I don't fear change, I fear repeating the mistakes of the past; and this power points stuff is just the kind of thing that has been turning people off to Psionics since it first showed up.
Tradition? Tradition is why the Druid still sucks and Wardens don't make any sense, I'm not big fan of tradition. Tradition is ok when it a feat or a PP, but it is certainly not something to base an entire class's mechanics around.
Tradition is reason for Power Points?.... And they call me narrowminded.
I was actually excited about Psionics in 4E, especially after Monk came out; I thought we were finally going to get a Psionics that people wouldn't be afraid of because it used the same setup every other class does. I have a friend who has always hated Psionics, I think he felt it was contrived, he would ban it from his games and not even want to hear about it; but when I explained to him how psionics would be the same in 4E as any other class power source, he became more open-minded to it, and the Monk thing confused him at first but eventually he warmed up to it, he started to see Psionics as something more natural and open to interpretation because of it was going to be so much less alien and that wouldn't be undermining anything anymore.
He's going to take the power point thing even worst than I did, at this rate I don't think he's ever going to play a psionic character or allow psionics in his campaigns (except maybe a reflavored Monks).
You say that, but then I hear something like...
and I think you are either lying, confused or just crazy.
It's a sub-system.
People seem to think that I don't like new things; but what the truth is, it's that I don't like old things, I don't like 3E or 2E or any other outdated "traditional" things. I don't fear change, I fear repeating the mistakes of the past; and this power points stuff is just the kind of thing that has been turning people off to Psionics since it first showed up.
Tradition? Tradition is why the Druid still sucks and Wardens don't make any sense, I'm not big fan of tradition. Tradition is ok when it a feat or a PP, but it is certainly not something to base an entire class's mechanics around.
Tradition is reason for Power Points?.... And they call me narrowminded.
I was actually excited about Psionics in 4E, especially after Monk came out; I thought we were finally going to get a Psionics that people wouldn't be afraid of because it used the same setup every other class does. I have a friend who has always hated Psionics, I think he felt it was contrived, he would ban it from his games and not even want to hear about it; but when I explained to him how psionics would be the same in 4E as any other class power source, he became more open-minded to it, and the Monk thing confused him at first but eventually he warmed up to it, he started to see Psionics as something more natural and open to interpretation because of it was going to be so much less alien and that wouldn't be undermining anything anymore.
He's going to take the power point thing even worst than I did, at this rate I don't think he's ever going to play a psionic character or allow psionics in his campaigns (except maybe a reflavored Monks).
1) The Druid is awesome. Its probably one of my favorite classes right now.
2) Wow. What a bit fuss about nothing. I can understand preferring it if the psionics instead got encounter powers which augmented at-will powers, and not simply got at-will powers and power points, but its really not that big of a difference.
WotC was never going to please everyone. Personally, I choose to be pleased. It just makes my life easier. And I like the nostalgic feeling I get when I look at power points.
I do have to say though, I really wish there were still 6 builds of psion, with each build focusing on a different secondary stat, but *shrug.* I guess there is always a Psionic Power book in the works some time in the future. And who knows, maybe some of the other disciplines will get swallowed up by classes of different names.
All in all, as someone who has been a big fan of psionics since AD&D, I am pretty pleased with what I am seeing. Now I need Dark Sun. :P
You say that, but then I hear something like...
and I think you are either lying, confused or just crazy.
It's a sub-system.
No, I'm not the one who is lying, confused, or crazy. It isn't a sub-system. It is fundamentally the same progression curve and power curve as non-Psionic classes, with some modified window dressing allowing certain interactions to work more intuitively and smoothly.
Basically, what Anubis said. At its core, every (2*tier) PP = 1 encounter power. The (2*tier) PP augmentations are of the same power level as the appropriate encounter powers of the other classes that came before them. They are even gated such that access comes at the same level. The power curve, levels of access, and amount gained are the same.
They simply have a little more versatility in one direction ("sacrifice" one encounter power, for two or more powers between encounter and at-will power level, and allow the same encounter power to be used more than once per encounter), at a cost of versatility in a different direction (having encounter powers that function quite differently from your at-wills).
Besides window dressing, how is the PP fundamentally different from encounter powers? This isn't even as complicated to track as vestiges can be.
Salla: Then grab some blank power cards, equal to the number of power points you have, and instead of subtracting numbers, discard cards.
Yes, except ... I prefer these 'power point cards' to be Encounter power cards (or dailies).
For example, if the new Psion class seems to use 'half-encounter' powers to augment At-Wills, Id like to have the choice between 'tapping' an Encounter card for a half-power augmentation, and 'expending' the Encounter card for a full-power. Or something like that.
McNancy: I was excited about Psionics in 4E, especially after Monk came out; I thought we were finally going to get a Psionics that people wouldn't be afraid of because it used the same setup every other class does.
Yeah, this seems to be the main concern. Psionics got a lot of hate because it was 'too sci-fi' and 'too weird mechanically'. It never fit in. The crux of the matter is, ... will the D&D community embrace the Psionic power source? Will we embrace the PH3 as canon? If we dont mind the irregular mechanics, and treat Psionic like Rage and other irregular mechanics, then I guess theres no problem. But if this power points mechanic continues to alienate D&D players away from Psionic, then its a huge problem.
That said, Tecktuk brings up a good point ...
Psions get MORE at-wills, AND their at-wills themselves advance more than other classes as you proceed through the game. In exchange, their encounter powers are more limited, such that they are virtually always more potent versions of their at-wills.
I understand what the devs are doing. The Psion gets more Atwills. Flavorwise, the Psion should be all about being able to do powers *at will*. So IMO, the Psion class should get extra At-Wills (which I admit is already breaking the established universal Atw/Enc/Dai system for class advancement, except that Humans and Halfelves already get extra Atwills, so why not the Psion class?). Obviously, balance is necessary when beefing these Atwills up.
I consider the 3e Expanded Psionic Handbook power point system to be a vast improvement over the traditional 'vancian' spellcasting system. But the truth is, I consider the 4e Atw/Enc system to be better than the power point system, and basically obsoletes its. I dont want to go back to power points, unless its absolutely necessary.
I guess, these 'neo power points' boil down to acceptability. Will the D&D community embrace Psionic? If yes, I guess theyr ok. If no, theyr a problem.
What's more, psion dailies appear to be slightly toned down compared to other controllers, but only slightly.
Incidently, the less-powerful Dailies probably have little to do with balance. In my opinion, Bruce Cordell tends to make Psionic powers slightly underpowered, about 1 level behind.
I'm not happy about what I'm reading on this thread; I have not had time to check it out for myself yet, I will have to look it over before I rush to a... then again, screw it.
POWER POINTS????!!?!?!?!??!?!?!!!!?!?!?!
That is not cool, there are NO power points in 4E.
Have fun explaining that to a new player, or trying to keep track of it as a DM.
I'm not sure what they're trying to achieve with Psion but does it really require POWER POINTS!?!
This makes a lot more sense than power points, why couldn't they have just done that?
just typing the words "power points" makes me sad. It reminds of the ending of the movie Chinatown; if you've seen Chinatown just think of power points as the creepy old man, Psion as the poor little girl being abducted by the old man, and 4E is the lady trying to protect the girl who gets shot in the eye, and I'm Jack Nicholson.
Until someone can explain to me why bringing back this outdated sub-system was good idea, I will consider WotC's act of doing so highly unforgivable.
Aren't you the one who has complained about every single new thing in 4E since the Invoker was announced? Since you obviously don't like anything that wasn't in the Player's Handbook, why do you keep subjecting us to your highly ridiculous drama?
Aren't you the one who has complained about every single new thing in 4E since the Invoker was announced? Since you obviously don't like anything that wasn't in the Player's Handbook, why do you keep subjecting us to your highly ridiculous drama?
Probably for the same reason William keeps subjecting us to his Dragonlance hate, or thax to his everything "evil or bestial" hate.
Yes, except ... I prefer these 'power point cards' to be Encounter power cards (or dailies).
Power Points are an Encounter resource. I'd put them on Encounter cards, because you can only use each Power Point once per encounter.
Yeah, this seems to be the main concern. Psionics got a lot of hate because it was 'too sci-fi' and 'too weird mechanically'. It never fit in.
You left out the part about redundancy. Lots of us didn't include Psionics in 3E/3.5E because it didn't seem like it offered anything much different from the Cleric and Wizard magic. It was parallel to magic, and redundant with magic, and since magic was core, Psionics was expendable to us.
The crux of the matter is, ... will the D&D community embrace the Psionic power source? Will we embrace the PH3 as canon? If we dont mind the irregular mechanics, and treat Psionic like Rage and other irregular mechanics, then I guess theres no problem. But if this power points mechanic continues to alienate D&D players away from Psionic, then its a huge problem.
I agree, but that's true of every mechanic. I also don't think it's nearly as irregular as you seem to think it might be.
I understand what the devs are doing. The Psion gets more Atwills. Flavorwise, the Psion should be all about being able to do powers *at will*. So IMO, the Psion class should get extra At-Wills (which I admit is already breaking the established universal Atw/Enc/Dai system for class advancement, except that Humans and Halfelves already get extra Atwills, so why not the Psion class?). Obviously, balance is necessary when beefing these Atwills up.
The Psion only has three At-Will attack powers at a time (or four if you're Human or a properly "feated" Half-Elf); that's the same number as the Druid. The Druid gets three At-Wills because he can only use at most two of those three in either of his forms; the Psion gets three because he uses Power Points to turn them into his Encounter powers.
The Psion replaces his old At-Wills as he levels up, gaining access to new At-Wills at the same levels other classes gain new Encounter powers. If he has an extra 1st-level At-Will from being Human or Half-Elf, (all indications are that) he cannot use Power Points to Augment that attack, nor can he replace it as he levels up; in other words, any bonus 1st-level At-Will attacks that the Psion gets remain 1st-level At-Will attacks.
I consider the 3e Expanded Psionic Handbook power point system to be a vast improvement over the traditional 'vancian' spellcasting system. But the truth is, I consider the 4e Atw/Enc system to be better than the power point system, and basically obsoletes its. I dont want to go back to power points, unless its absolutely necessary.
I agree that the 4E system is better than anything 3E ever had. That said, I think some folks strongly misunderstand how closely this new 4E Power Point mechanic mirrors the At-Will/Encounter/Daily structure. This new mechanic is much, much, much closer to other 4E classes than it is to the 3.5E power point system. The 4E Psion is a 4E Wizard wearing a Psion's clothes.
As to whether or not this structure is "absolutely necessary", that firmly in the eye of the beholder. We've seen 20 official classes published on paper in 4E so far, so in my mind, a little variety was necessary to keep things fresh. The fact that they managed to achieve that variety without actually leaving the basic structure of 4E's power system is what makes this new mechanic as interesting as it is, in my mind.
I guess, these 'neo power points' boil down to acceptability. Will the D&D community embrace Psionic? If yes, I guess theyr ok. If no, theyr a problem.
Again, I agree with you in principle. However, I'd like to point out that at this point, the noisiest opposition seems to be coming from people who haven't actually read the class. Personally, I think the positive response to this has been a lot stronger than the negative, and I think seeing the class in play will reinforce that for a lot of people.
Probably for the same reason William keeps subjecting us to his Dragonlance hate, or thax to his everything "evil or bestial" hate.
"Hey, did you see a Half-Orc come through here?"
"Yeah, I saw a Dragonborn run by just a moment ago!"
The power curve, levels of access, and amount gained are the same.
Balance is not my issue, WotC has done a pretty good job with balance so far.
I consider the 3e Expanded Psionic Handbook power point system to be a vast improvement over the traditional 'vancian' spellcasting system. But the truth is, I consider the 4e Atw/Enc system to be better than the power point system, and basically obsoletes its. I dont want to go back to power points, unless its absolutely necessary.
This is my issue; I thought we had evolved beyond power points is all.
Aren't you the one who has complained about every single new thing in 4E since the Invoker was announced? Since you obviously don't like anything that wasn't in the Player's Handbook, why do you keep subjecting us to your highly ridiculous drama?
Lets see...
I was confused about the Invoker because of the poorly written fluff and that most people were playing them as though they were Clerics, I had thought they wern't new enough. I complained about the Druid and Warden dynamic, and still do, and not because they're new but because they remind me of old editions. Other than Druid and Warden, who are in need of newness, I have ebraced everything else, including Invoker.
So... no. you must be thinking of somebody else. The person your thinking of is most likely happy to see that Psionics are going to be scaring off players and DMs just like it did in the past.
By the same token, compared to most new mechanical designs I've seen, power points feel like a step backward, not as 'out-of-the-box' as I'd hoped. Power points do capture the feel of how psioncs felt in earlier games. In the back of my mind though, I wondered if psionics might be the next 'big thing'.
I've never been a fan but psionics have always been worth a try. So, here I go (again) . . . ;)
If nobody can even come close to telling me why they added power points to game, then I'm not even going to bother looking at the class.
More versatility for the classes that have them.
Aren't you the one who has complained about every single new thing in 4E since the Invoker was announced? Since you obviously don't like anything that wasn't in the Player's Handbook, why do you keep subjecting us to your highly ridiculous drama?
Shhhh... don't say that! Lord Dreadman will declare you to be 13! PH34R!!
Shhhh... don't say that! Lord Dreadman will declare you to be 13! PH34R!!
Eww, good point.
WotC was never going to please everyone. Personally, I choose to be pleased. It just makes my life easier. And I like the nostalgic feeling I get when I look at power points.
You also get a lighter wallet as you buy substandard products ;)
(tongue-in-cheek, although it does raise a counterpoint to choosing to always be pleased)
For exemple, how about a Martial class that has no Dailies but its Encounter power can be augmented through a daily point system? Sure would shut up those 'Martial Dailies make no sense!!1' people eh?
The dailies do feel a bit subpar...the few I checked looked really plain too.
One things that worries me is the over reliance on psychic damage. I know its not often resisted but it can't be good.
A Psion would do good to grab at least one power from the other build just to have some variety.
Instead, explain why the Psion has to be this way or why it is better this way.
Unfortunately for you, LordDreadman has a damn good point on that question -- they coulda done basically the same thing with the existing system, but apparently decided not to. The result is going to be that many people think that psions are weird and complicated and won't want them in their games. I recognize that those of you defending the class are not among those people. Cookies for you.
And it's kinda funny to hear "tradition" trumpeted as a great reason to use this system. Let me think of some other D&D traditions that most people who like 4E don't miss:
Fighters have basically nothing to do but standard attacks with weapons, six times per round.
Summoning characters bring an army into existence and take an hour for their turns.
Wizards and clerics make other classes essentially superfluous.
Unnecessary difference = unnecessary complexity. And unnecessary complexity = bad.
You also get a lighter wallet as you buy substandard products ;)
(tongue-in-cheek, although it does raise a counterpoint to choosing to always be pleased)
Nah. If I decide a product is substandard, I don't buy it. That is why so few 3e books grace my shelves (in comparison to my old AD&D library, d20 Modern library, Star Wars Saga library, and now 4e library).
Honestly though, I have not seen anything to suggest that psionic classes will be sub-standard as of yet. As long as they keep a 1 for 1 pattern of growth between per encounter powers, and power points/the cost of augmentation options, its really not that big a deal.
In the end is it so bad if they're different just for the sake of having some variety? I admit its a bit jarring at first but if you don't look at it thinking its going to be bad because old Psions were bad its a fun prospect.
If we dont mind the irregular mechanics, and treat Psionic like Rage and other irregular mechanics, then I guess theres no problem.
Sorry to go off topic, but what?!
How is rage an irregular mechanic? What makes a barbarian's rages all that different than a fighter's stances?
Sorry to go off topic, but what?!
How is rage an irregular mechanic? What makes a barbarian's rages all that different than a fighter's stances?
I suppose it's because all of the Barbarian's At-wills change whenever he rages.
Sorry to go off topic, but what?!
How is rage an irregular mechanic? What makes a barbarian's rages all that different than a fighter's stances?
A better question might be whats the difference between a regular mechanic and an irregular mechanic?
IMO things like rage and companions are just an extension of the 4E system, they use the same concepts to do new things; where as power points are an alien concept added on to the system, a parasite if you will. Both expand the system in new interesting and balanced ways, but one of them is a alien parasite; It's like the episode of Futurama where Fry's life becomes improved by alien worms living inside him, even though they were improving him he still had them removed because they were turning him into someone he wasn't, he wanted to win over Leela with the real Fry not the with alien worms making him different.
I think the power points are an improvement, but I would much rather have 4E win me over with with what it is and not with some alien power points; and I think 4E has a lot better chance of improving itself with it's own true nature than Fry does.
Honestly though, I have not seen anything to suggest that psionic classes will be sub-standard as of yet. As long as they keep a 1 for 1 pattern of growth between per encounter powers, and power points/the cost of augmentation options, its really not that big a deal.
I don't think it's sub-standard either, it works very well.
Imagine you're an expecting father, your wife gives birth to a beautiful healthy new baby, but with one look at it you can tell it's not your baby; you could very well love this child and raise as your own, "its really not that big a deal" except for the fact that you were betrayed.
I feel betrayed.
Once again (and I can't believe that you have me arguing against a system that I don't hate), I don't mind the Power Point system. My game will operate just fine with Power Points. My argument, plain and simple, is that WotC could have done this with Encounter powers instead with reletively little extra fuss. They have made the Psion different simply for the sake of being different, and that is what I dislike.
I don't think there would be any extra fuss at all, considering that it would then work the same as all the other classes do, they would be able to Multiclass, Hybridclass and take feats, PPs and EDs that do things with encounter powers.
So do any of you who don't think power points complicate the game know how a Psion would multiclass? Or should we wait for them to release the rules on how to make this class interact with the normal classes.
Because the sub-system itself is not complicated, it's how it relates to the rest of the game that's messed up.
A better question might be whats the difference between a regular mechanic and an irregular mechanic?
IMO things like rage and companions are just an extension of the 4E system, they use the same concepts to do new things; where as power points are an alien concept added on to the system, a parasite if you will. Both expand the system in new interesting and balanced ways, but one of them is a alien parasite; It's like the episode of Futurama where Fry's life becomes improved by alien worms living inside him, even though they were improving him he still had them removed because they were turning him into someone he wasn't, he wanted to win over Leela with the real Fry not the with alien worms making him different.
I think the power points are an improvement, but I would much rather have 4E win me over with with what it is and not with some alien power points; and I think 4E has a lot better chance of improving itself with it's own true nature than Fry does.
I don't think it's sub-standard either, it works very well.
Imagine you're an expecting father, your wife gives birth to a beautiful healthy new baby, but with one look at it you can tell it's not your baby; you could very well love this child and raise as your own, "its really not that big a deal" except for the fact that you were betrayed.
I feel betrayed.
What a load of bologna and hyperbole. Its at this point in time that I have lost all respect for your argument, because you really don't have one. Do power points work? According to you, yes. Are they sub-standard? According to you, no. And yet they are, according to you, a terrible addition to 4e. Why? Because they are "alien worms," they are "not your baby"...
So, why are they a bad thing again? Oh, right, because from your personal perspective, you want everything to very clearly be cut from the at-will, per encounter, per day cloth. Do you want everything to be cut from this cloth because it helps with balance? No. You feel power points are balanced. Do you want everything cut from this cloth because you feel its a better standard, a par if you will, for the game? No. You don't find power points to be sub-par. What is your reason that things need to be cut from this cloth? Just because. Just because everything else is.
Well, I say hogwash. I really like the at-will, per encounter, and per day mechanic. And I don't want things to deviate from it too much. But I don't want things to deviate from it too much for a reason. My reason is that balance is a paramount aspect of the games I want to play. I find that it is hard to balance games with a plethora of sub-systems. But if they find a way to balance a slight reformulation of the at-will, per encounter, per day mechanic in a 1 for 1 balanced manner, then there is no problem if they deviate away from this mechanic slightly. There is no reason why, theoretically, one class can't have its per encounter powers replaced with power points which they can use to augment their at-wills, IF this mechanic can be introduced in a manner that is balanced with the rest of the system.
You want to complain that something is not balanced, is sub-par, I'll listen. If you have a good argument, I'll agree that you have a point, and WotC needs to take that point into consideration. But if the entire body of your argument is that things should be divided up into at-will, per encounter, per day, just because, I'm sorry, that's a bad argument. The at-will, per encounter, per day division, standardized across all classes, is already a deviation away from the conservative D&D standard. If conservative standards were something of any importance, then 4e should not exist at all (or any other edition of D&D after OD&D).
Depending on your perspective, having the psionics class stick with this division, or use power points, could be seen as a (further) deviation away from some sort of conservative standard. So really, a conservative standard is irrelevant. All that matters is what both 1) works, and 2) loosely evokes the flavor of the past, thus staying within some sort of ephemeral boundaries of the D&D tradition. The power points mechanics as written SEEMS to do both. That doesn't mean that I think it was necessarily a good mechanic. But I don't see any reason, as of yet, to assume its a bad one. And making the mechanic work with the rest of the game really isn't as hard as you make out. Just have the per encounter attack power power swap multiclass feat allow you to swap one of your per encounter powers from your class for a single psion at-will power of the appropriate level, and a number of power points equal to 1/4th what a psion of your level would regularly receive. Problem solved.
And making the mechanic work with the rest of the game really isn't as hard as you make out. Just have the per encounter attack power power swap multiclass feat allow you to swap one of your per encounter powers from your class for a single psion at-will power of the appropriate level, and a number of power points equal to 1/4th what a psion of your level would regularly receive. Problem solved.
You don't even need to give out power points at ALL for a multiclass psion. As has been suggested already, and it's an INCREDIBLY simple interaction: When you switch out an encounter power with a multiclass feat for a psion (or other power point using class, for that matter) encounter power, you instead get one of their level-appropriate at-wills as an encounter power, and the ability to use any one of that power's augments for free.
So, you get a power precisely on par with an encounter power for the appropriate level with the ability to DOWNGRADE it if you want (i.e. you don't want to do a burst 1, just hit one target surrounded by allies). That's it. Easy as heck. No fuss, no muss.
I's think that gaining the base at-will as an encounter power would be granted by the multiclass, and being able to enhance it would be the novice power. (at the cost of an encounter power)
Except you are also gaining the Psion's ability to use the power at-will.
That's most assuredly not what I'm suggesting at all, though it did seem to be what Cyber-Dave was suggesting according to his post. They won't let you switch out an encounter power for an at-will, methinks.
I's think that gaining the base at-will as an encounter power would be granted by the multiclass, and being able to enhance it would be the novice power. (at the cost of an encounter power)
I think it will be both.
The multiclass feat will give you an at-will as an encounter power that you cannot augment.
The Novice Power feat will give you an at-will as an encounter power that you can augment one time from any of the legal selections for free, but only if you want to.
Moving on...
To say this isn't a sub-system is delusional. It may be balanced within itself and compared to existing classes, but it hardly interacts with those classes in a friendly manner. I feel like I'm raising the dead equine just to flog it allover again, but how does the Psion multi-class? How will it hybrid? People can throw sh*t at the wall right now to see what sticks with regards to how they think it might work, but it's hardly worthwhile.
It may seem trivial, but the fact remains that this class (and any others which use power points) is going to require further explanation with regards to multi-classing and that in itself implies a sub-system that doesn't mesh as easily as everything we've had up until now.
Still, I like it. I want to play it. I want my friends to play it. So on & so forth.
~Bizkit
I like the class and its unique mechanics. I look forward to playing one as soon as the PHB3 is released (only because I typically dislike playing classes without their supporting feats & other paraphernalia). It looks as though it scales well and I honestly can't elaborate and further on how I feel.
Moving on...
To say this isn't a sub-system is delusional. It may be balanced within itself and compared to existing classes, but it hardly interacts with those classes in a friendly manner. I feel like I'm raising the dead equine just to flog it allover again, but how does the Psion multi-class? How will it hybrid? People can throw sh*t at the wall right now to see what sticks with regards to how they think it might work, but it's hardly worthwhile.
It may seem trivial, but the fact remains that this class (and any others which use power points) is going to require further explanation with regards to multi-classing and that in itself implies a sub-system that doesn't mesh as easily as everything we've had up until now.
Still, I like it. I want to play it. I want my friends to play it. So on & so forth.
~Bizkit
I support this post.
I don't think there would be any extra fuss at all, considering that it would then work the same as all the other classes do, they would be able to Multiclass, Hybridclass and take feats, PPs and EDs that do things with encounter powers.
So do any of you who don't think power points complicate the game know how a Psion would multiclass? Or should we wait for them to release the rules on how to make this class interact with the normal classes.
Because the sub-system itself is not complicated, it's how it relates to the rest of the game that's messed up.
There have been a number of people who speculated on how multiclassing would work with a psion and power points. All of those speculations tend to be very similar. If this is the case, then it would lead me to believe that rules for multiclassing psions would not be that difficult to comprehend.
I only recall seeing one speculated way of handling hybrids (other than mine). It is different than what I thought initially, but I haven't settled on how I would do a hybrid psion at the time. I would like to see how other psionic classes with power points are done first.
Hybrids would be pretty simple. If you take, say, a wizard power, whatever. If you take a Psion encounter power for a level, you get to add that +2 Power Points to your total. The systems can easily interact, really.
I agree, it wouldn't be too complicated. That said, don't forget that Psions don't get Encounter powers. :P Instead, at a level where they'd normally get a new encounter power, they replace one of their At-Wills with a new one.
And making the mechanic work with the rest of the game really isn't as hard as you make out. Just have the per encounter attack power power swap multiclass feat allow you to swap one of your per encounter powers from your class for a single psion at-will power of the appropriate level, and a number of power points equal to 1/4th what a psion of your level would regularly receive. Problem solved.
You don't even need to give out power points at ALL for a multiclass psion. As has been suggested already, and it's an INCREDIBLY simple interaction: When you switch out an encounter power with a multiclass feat for a psion (or other power point using class, for that matter) encounter power, you instead get one of their level-appropriate at-wills as an encounter power, and the ability to use any one of that power's augments for free.
So, you get a power precisely on par with an encounter power for the appropriate level with the ability to DOWNGRADE it if you want (i.e. you don't want to do a burst 1, just hit one target surrounded by allies). That's it. Easy as heck. No fuss, no muss.
Except you are also gaining the Psion's ability to use the power at-will.
That's most assuredly not what I'm suggesting at all, though it did seem to be what Cyber-Dave was suggesting according to his post. They won't let you switch out an encounter power for an at-will, methinks.
I's think that gaining the base at-will as an encounter power would be granted by the multiclass, and being able to enhance it would be the novice power. (at the cost of an encounter power)
I think it will be both.
The multiclass feat will give you an at-will as an encounter power that you cannot augment.
The Novice Power feat will give you an at-will as an encounter power that you can augment one time from any of the legal selections for free, but only if you want to.
Or.....
You could skip all that by making a class that uses the system thats already in place.
Or.....
You could skip all that by making a class that uses the system thats already in place.
The game could be much much simpler than it is at present, why is this exact amount of complexity the ideal one?
Also, right now I don't think the augment 6 powers are 3 times as good as the augment 2 powers, so I suspect the best way (the mechanically best way, that is) to build a psion is just to stick with low level powers that include nice debuffs and spam them all day long. In addition to potential balance issues, this also makes for a really boring character.
The particularly sad thing is that, as others have pointed out, the idea of augments could have worked really nicely with the current encounter ability system. In fact, I think it would have worked better, since it would have eliminated the "I spam one ability over and over" character concept. While I have nothing against new subsystems as such, I do think that a new subsystem should do what it's supposed to do better than the old system could (hence the justification for introducing it and not just using the old system). In this case, I feel that it probably does its job worse than the old system, which is a little disappointing.
We'll see though, I'll give it a shot, but until I see it being awesome in practice I will remain skeptical.
Just out of curiosity, how do Psion utility powers look? Do they have encounter utilities? I'm expecting a "yes" to this question, but you never know...
Yes, they have encounter utilities (and daily utilities as well).
As for multiclassing and such part of the mechanic is already in the class description: any at-will gained via feat or racial bonus can not be augmented normally though it retains the augmentable keyword and can be augmented through other means (presumably feats or items). This means the human's third at-will or a half-elf grabbing a psion at-will can only use that power at base level. This would seem to carry over to multiclassing into psion and the use of the at-wills. if you do the power swap feat to get a psion at-will you can't augment it normally.
Hybrids would take more thought but then hybrids of ALL classes require more thought. For one the hybrid psion might not even get the psionic augmentation class feature and instead only the psionic focus feature so they can't augment the at-wills though they could replace and upgrade them (but only replace a psion at-will with another psion at-will in place of an encounter power).
Sure the mechanic wasn't needed and they could have tried to work up a suite of encounter powers that would augment at-will attacks but hte problem is that would reduce the damage output of psions since they'd have to spend one turn or one of their minor actions to use an encounter power (unless they are all free actions) then use a standard action to use their at-will powers.
You'd also run into issues with multiclassing since the encounter powers would only work on psion at-wills so useless for most multiclassing purposes and limited use for hybrids. Yes you could use the old method but it'd have its own headaches, balance issues, and interaction with other classes issues.
Between sticking to the strict aw/e/d/u or a variation of it (using the base of D&D exception-based rules) I think they took the better option. Sure it's something to track but so is tracking which encounter powers your class has already used. PPs aren't tracked past short rests just as encounter power use isn't tracked past short rests (besides the ones that are use x per day which they seem to be switching to be considered dailies with multiple uses which makes more sense than encounter or at-wills with limited uses per day).
Yes it makes the class function differently but so do a fighter's stances, a barbarian's rages, a wizard's spellbook, a cosmic sorcerer's phase tracking, a vestige warlock's vestige tracking, or a ranger's beast companion. We already have lots of 'sub systems' but the pp system in 4e is JUST a subsystem. In older editions it was an entirely different system that didn't interact well with all the other systems in place (melee/weapon combat, spellcasters, and psionics were all essentially entirely different systems not subsystems of a cohesive mechanic). All pp's do is change how a class's encounter powers look from a paper view without changing how combat, hit determination, resistances and vulnerabilities, resolution order, or power interaction work.
If you print out a psion character in the CB each at-will has 3 cards: no augment, 1st level augment, 2nd level augment. Sure all three have a green border but that 2nd level augment is essentially an encounter power. As for the sheet itself all power points do is put a new small box at the bottom of the powers list to show how many power points your psion has.
My main problem with the psion system isn't that it's new, but that it seems like it'll be a pain to balance. If there's even one slightly overpowered augment, a psion can just grab that power and spam it over and over again in combat. Rain of Blows was a bit cheap as it was, but imagine if a high level fighter was able to sacrifice all of his other encounter powers to cast Rain of Blows 5 or more times in one combat. Basically, if there's even one low level augment that's a bit overpowered, there's nothing stopping a psion from using it throughout their career. By 30th level they will have 17 power points and be able to use a heroic tier augment power 8 times in one combat. If the skills aren't balanced really, really well, this will be a pain for DMs.
Also, right now I don't think the augment 6 powers are 3 times as good as the augment 2 powers, so I suspect the best way (the mechanically best way, that is) to build a psion is just to stick with low level powers that include nice debuffs and spam them all day long. In addition to potential balance issues, this also makes for a really boring character.
The particularly sad thing is that, as others have pointed out, the idea of augments could have worked really nicely with the current encounter ability system. In fact, I think it would have worked better, since it would have eliminated the "I spam one ability over and over" character concept. While I have nothing against new subsystems as such, I do think that a new subsystem should do what it's supposed to do better than the old system could (hence the justification for introducing it and not just using the old system). In this case, I feel that it probably does its job worse than the old system, which is a little disappointing.
We'll see though, I'll give it a shot, but until I see it being awesome in practice I will remain skeptical.
As opposed to Mcnancy pointless whining about the introduction of difference, this is a good reason to fear what the PP augmentation system will introduce. I am also a little worried that something like this might be the result of the introduction of this system.
Sure the mechanic wasn't needed and they could have tried to work up a suite of encounter powers that would augment at-will attacks but hte problem is that would reduce the damage output of psions since they'd have to spend one turn or one of their minor actions to use an encounter power (unless they are all free actions) then use a standard action to use their at-will powers.
problem solved.
You'd also run into issues with multiclassing since the encounter powers would only work on psion at-wills so useless for most multiclassing purposes and limited use for hybrids. Yes you could use the old method but it'd have its own headaches, balance issues, and interaction with other classes issues.
A professional could find a way around that, Shamans and Druids did it just fine; you could even design the encounter to work with any At-will like the encounters for the Bravo and Cutt-throat class from Art of the Kill.
Between sticking to the strict aw/e/d/u or a variation of it (using the base of D&D exception-based rules) I think they took the better option. Sure it's something to track but so is tracking which encounter powers your class has already used. PPs aren't tracked past short rests just as encounter power use isn't tracked past short rests (besides the ones that are use x per day which they seem to be switching to be considered dailies with multiple uses which makes more sense than encounter or at-wills with limited uses per day).
Except with encounters you are tracking three different and specific things each with their own name, and with power points your keeping track of seventeen of the same exact thing that can be spent in different amounts each time. Lets face it, it would be a lot more easier to lie to your DM about how many power points you have spent than it would be to use an encounter more than once and your DM not notice it, because power points are not as easy to track.
Yes it makes the class function differently but so do a fighter's stances, a barbarian's rages, a wizard's spellbook, a cosmic sorcerer's phase tracking, a vestige warlock's vestige tracking, or a ranger's beast companion. We already have lots of 'sub systems' but the pp system in 4e is JUST a subsystem.
Differently than what? how are those examples of sub-systems?
None of your examples make it so the class can't multiclass, so I don't agree that they make the class work as unprecedently as power points do. Those examples have all the things a class is meant to have with some mechanics added on to the basic setup; Psions have had something key to the standard class setup removed from it and something else (a sub-system) of which there is no infrastucture for has replaced it.
They are a sub-system. They take the general rules of powers and combat and add something specific to it that isn't shared by EVERY power in the game. Even aw/e/d flags on powers are a subsystem of the power system. Utility powers already 'break the mold' by being able to be all three types of powers depending on the specific power. The only reason people don't complain about it is because it was there from the beginning. If a pp type subsystem was there from the start I doubt anyone would be 'freaking out' nearly as much as they are now.
That's why pp's are a SUB-system rather than a NEW system like they were in older editions. Other than removing encounter powers at levels X and replacing it with new at-wills and a MINOR bookkeeping (that a DM can easily track if they're used to tracking encounter powers to make sure players aren't abusing their use) they still work within the main system of class mechanics and power usage.
All a DM needs is one more field on their play summary info for PPs and to tick off the PP usage as the player says what they're doing. They just have to state if they are using their power unaugments or at what level. No worse than saying what encounter power they are using then the DM having to remember (or write down) that power being used to make sure the player doesn't use it again later in combat.
Note that multiclassing into a ranger doesn't get you a beast companion, it's not even an option. Why would multiclassing into psion grant you power points and the ability to augment your at-wills?
Hybrid multiclassing can grant the beast companion. And I'm not really sure what the second part to that even is about, is it a rhetorical question?
They are a sub-system. They take the general rules of powers and combat and add something specific to it that isn't shared by EVERY power in the game. Even aw/e/d flags on powers are a subsystem of the power system. Utility powers already 'break the mold' by being able to be all three types of powers depending on the specific power.
No, they're the system, they are etensions of the system. They do add on, but they do not replace or undermine anything already in place such as multiclassing.
If a pp type subsystem was there from the start I doubt anyone would be 'freaking out' nearly as much as they are now.
Because it would all be one system.
Other than removing encounter powers at levels X and replacing it with new at-wills
Yeah, thats the thing I'm complaining about; It's unessicary and its more trouble than it's worth
and a MINOR bookkeeping (that a DM can easily track if they're used to tracking encounter powers to make sure players aren't abusing their use) they still work within the main system of class mechanics and power usage.
All a DM needs is one more field on their play summary info for PPs and to tick off the PP usage as the player says what they're doing. They just have to state if they are using their power unaugments or at what level. No worse than saying what encounter power they are using then the DM having to remember (or write down) that power being used to make sure the player doesn't use it again later in combat.
Now on this point, IMO, your just flat out kidding yourself. Niether one of us have DMed a Psion yet, so lets not pretend like we know how hard it is to keep track of how many points they're spending.
Heck as a player I'd have an easier time tracking my pp usage than our cleric had of remembering that when he used his power he got to give one of us a bonus to attack so we lost out on buffs half the combat. At level 1 its really easy. I get 6 power cards for my 2 at-wills. If I use the augment 2 I can turn over 4 of them since I'm out of power points for the combat, if I use the augment 1 I can turn over 2 of them since I only have 1 pp left so can't use the augment 2 cards for the rest of the combat. At high levels it does get a bit more complex than that but so does combat in general.
What I stated are indeed a subsystem, just because they were part of the main system from the beginning doesn't change the fact that they are a subsystem. They are just part of the original design and not an ehancement later. Just as new classes, powers and feats are just as valid as the original ones despite not being there since the launch of 4e.
Multiclassing and hybrid are related but seperate systems and follow different rules and restrictions. I was addressing the multiclassing system that is in use currently, not the proposed hybrid system they have been testing. For hybrids I could see the psion (and other pp using classes) getting X number of pp's each time they select an 'encounter' power for their pp-using class that equates to the fully augmented cost of the at-will power that matches that level (as well as the at-will power itself) or maybe less pp if they choose a lower-level at-will instead. They'd end up with less pp than a full psion and would have non-psion encounter powers but that makes sense as they're a hybrid and not a pure psion.
As an aside, I can't help but wonder if the psionic striker will be the Lurk from Complete Psionic. The buzzword "Augment" makes me wonder, as Lurk's would augment their sneak attacks.
I think the Psion looks amazing, and keeps the feel of 3.xE psionics with 4E simplicity. I'm really looking forward to the Defender and Striker now.
As an aside, I can't help but wonder if the psionic striker will be the Lurk from Complete Psionic. The buzzword "Augment" makes me wonder, as Lurk's would augment their sneak attacks.
I don't really dig "Lurk" as a class name, personally, but that doesn't mean it might not be around in some form. What exactly was the Lurk class about?
BTW, while I (and others) personally think there's good reason to think we'll see more than one Psionic Strikers, don't forget that we've already seen one in 4E: the Monk. (Playtested a month or two ago on D&DI.) Myself, I'm hoping that the Soulknife kills the Psychic Warrior and takes his stuff, becoming the new Psionic Defender.
As an aside, I can't help but wonder if the psionic striker will be the Lurk from Complete Psionic. The buzzword "Augment" makes me wonder, as Lurk's would augment their sneak attacks.
I'd forgotten about the lurk. I'm not sure if it's strong enough to stand on it's own as a 4E class, though possibly if fussed with the soulknife (and makes more sense than 2/3 of the other attempts I've seen at grafting the soulknife with another class). Though the result might end up looking to much like a psionic version of shadow's assassin and/or ninja.
I'd rather see the Lurk return as a Psionic striker than the soulknife.
The soulknife should be a feat.
What's all this noise about Power points being a new subsystem? It's just a mix of channel divinity & lay on hands.
All we need for multiclassing is a sidebar that says "Any time you would gain an extra encounter power for a PP using class you instead gain 2 PP." Easy.
I wonder what this means for the Psionic defender. Could be we get another unAwED class, with a class ability to augment powers that target their mark.
Mcnancy, you might want to tone it down a little. It's all very well to say you feel like the kid isn't yours, but you're acting like it's covered in black chitin and has acid for blood.
Mcnancy, you might want to tone it down a little. It's all very well to say you feel like the kid isn't yours, but you're acting like it's covered in black chitin and has acid for blood.
Well, considering the theme of PH3 is "vs. the Far Realm" maybe it is.
Mcnancy, you might want to tone it down a little. It's all very well to say you feel like the kid isn't yours, but you're acting like it's covered in black chitin and has acid for blood.
Yeah, things might get a little creepy if you start to mix those two metaphors.
Technically I've not DMed anything in 4e but I have played and I found that the DM had a harder time keeping track of what encounter powers the player's used than he did tracking our hp and bloodied values. It was much easier for him to track a number that just gets added to or subtracted from than it was to keep track of names of powers that were different for every player. You also can't really argue that it's not easier to do a set of hashmarks on a piece of paper than it is ot write down what could be a long power name for an encounter power?
Your DM writes down the name of every encounter power used? As someone who has DMed 4E I can tell you, thats unessicary, all you have to do is make sure you don't hear the name of attack said twice (unless its a at-will or heal); It's easy because they each have a unque name.
Though I suppose if you have a DM that's so **** or forgetful that he has to write down every thing that happens in combat, then nothing is really too hard to track is it?
Some of the problems with the other options mentioned. Making them Full Disciplines would not have worked, because then you're charging the Psion a minor action for an augment, putting them an action down on every other character. That destroys balance.
The thing someone said in the early pages about expending an encouter power to get two uses of a more toned down version (I think they called it a mild power) brings up all kinds of problems. Are those two uses standard actions? Do they have to be used consecutively? How do you track if you still have an extra mild power left?
The best alternative I've seen is the one making all their Encounter powers Augments, but that runs into a few problems as well. The primary one being that you either have to make the Augments very general and, frankly, weak, or you have to restrict them to Augementing only specific at-wills, which is already a horrible idea I hated when they introduced it in combat styles. While the latter would work, it would limit what encounter powers you could take, even more so than the dual primary classes, because you quite literally would not be able to use them at all, since you have the wrong at-wills to take advantage of them (not to mention they'd be useless for mutliclassing since, again, you can only augment specific at-wills, which your primary class won't have).
In the former class, you could never have an augment that changed a power to a burst or blast because that runs into balance issues, and any effect added by an augment would have to be fairly generic for the same reason. You'd also have to avoid an augment having any effect that any of your at-wills have, or you run into the problem of adding, say, an immobilize effect to a power that already immobilizes, unless they were stackable. Also, how would you create the lesser effect that the lower pp augments have?
I'm not saying that going with power points were necessary, I'm just saying that to create the effect they wanted, it was the best option available. And I find it hard to believe they didn't at least playtest the option of having all their encounter powers be augments, since that's a pretty obvious path everyone has already thought of. For some reason, they felt that power points worked better.
The thing someone said in the early pages about expending an encouter power to get two uses of a more toned down version (I think they called it a mild power) brings up all kinds of problems. Are those two uses standard actions? Do they have to be used consecutively? How do you track if you still have an extra mild power left?
Completely disagree about this part. How does it brings problems? All the questions you brought up are quite obvious. Just like using pp's to augment a at-will twice cost two standard actions (even in the case of the lower augments), so would this system. About being cast consecutively, no, it wouldn't be necessary, as the normal augment rules do not require to be cast consecutively either. And about keeping track... oh please, do you really think it's hard to track 'In this encounter, I will use this power's weaker version twice'? A lot easier than pp's, if you ask me.
Don't know who was the guy who suggested this variant (it was a lot of pages ago), but he has my total support. This option presented works much better than WotC's system. AND it fixes all the problems we have with the power points subsystem.
I like William O'Connor's people better. (The Mind Flayer looks okay though.)
You like pictures of all the guys with noses that all look like... um... male reproductive organs? Seriously! Go look at them!
This option presented works much better than WotC's system. AND it fixes all the problems we have with the power points subsystem.
It doesn't give the option of using the same encounters multiple times. In other words, that option would destroy the nifty thing about the Psion, which is his lack of Effect Versatility to gain Usage Versatility. So if you were going to destroy the flavor of the class that much, you might as well put them on the same system as everyone else (Which I think is a bad idea. There's nothing wrong with the PP system, and it works fine with the rest of the game.).
It doesn't give the option of using the same encounters multiple times. In other words, that option would destroy the nifty thing about the Psion, which is his lack of Effect Versatility to gain Usage Versatility. So if you were going to destroy the flavor of the class that much, you might as well put them on the same system as everyone else (Which I think is a bad idea. There's nothing wrong with the PP system, and it works fine with the rest of the game.).
I think there's an implicit assumption in these alternate systems that the flavor of the class isn't satisfying to the people making the suggestions. So of course, to keep the class functioning/feeling exactly as it functions/feels, nothing should be changed. Perhaps I'm in the wrong, but generally I inferred* from the proposals a subtext of "I don't like the Psion as it is; I would like to change it to N."
That's behind my thoughts about changes to the Psion - I don't particularly like the premise of the class design, and therefore, changes to that premise interest me. If a diferent feel/flavor/function emerges from those changes...well, then, good!
* Infer is probably better than saying the others have implied anything. So anyway.
I don't really dig "Lurk" as a class name, personally, but that doesn't mean it might not be around in some form. What exactly was the Lurk class about?
BTW, while I (and others) personally think there's good reason to think we'll see more than one Psionic Strikers, don't forget that we've already seen one in 4E: the Monk. (Playtested a month or two ago on D&DI.) Myself, I'm hoping that the Soulknife kills the Psychic Warrior and takes his stuff, becoming the new Psionic Defender.
I agree. Lurk as a class name is lame. However, a Soul Knife with Lurk features tacked on would be awesome.
Lurk in a nutshell:
-Sneak Attack class
-X per day, add something to sneak attacks
-At X level, add something else to sneak attacks
-Minor psionic abilities
---
This could easily be implemented in 4E using the Psion Augment system.
Give the "Lurk" something like sneak attack, but NOT. Such as "Add X stat modifier to damage when you have Combat Advantage".
There. Consistent, but underpowered Striker cookie.
Now, give them At-Wills that are relatively high damage unaugmented (similar to Sly Flourish...i.e. "Lurk Attack", Dex vs AC, 1 [W] + 1d6 + Dex Mod). "Lurk Attack" combined with "Lurk Sneak Attack" gives damage roughly equal to a Heroic Tier Rogue, albeit with a different FEEL.
THEN, add augments that boost the attack when the Lurk has Combat Advantage.
i.e. "Lurk Attack Augment 1: If you have CA, target is BLIND until end of your next turn. Lurk Attack Augment 2: If you have CA, target is STUNNED until the end of your next turn."
Next, add some fun class features to give the Lurk a different FEEL than the Rogue.
i.e. Lurk Movement: Spend a Minor Action to either gain a Climb Speed equal to movement speed, walk on water, teleport one square, or add a +5 to an Athletics or Acrobatics check until the beginning of your next turn.
i.e. Lurk Teleport: Spend a Minor Action and a Move Action to teleport your speed. Cannot be performed two rounds in a row.
i.e. Lurk Evasion: Spend a Move Action to gain a +2 to Defenses as an immediate interrupt.
Don't quote me on specifics, as I'm just trying to give an idea here.
I was a bit iffy on power points before reading this thread. After reading it and seeing the alternatives people have suggested, I've come to the conclusion that pp were probably the best option to do what they wanted.
I agree, the Ideas that came off the tops of people's heads who are not professional game designers could use a little work. Good thing people like you are here to give constuctive criticism, so that we can work on a better system for Psion together.
Some of the problems with the other options mentioned. Making them Full Disciplines would not have worked, because then you're charging the Psion a minor action for an augment, putting them an action down on every other character. That destroys balance.
Hmmm, good point, but what if they granted a free action that's only used once in conjuction with an At-Will to create the "mild power"
The thing someone said in the early pages about expending an encouter power to get two uses of a more toned down version (I think they called it a mild power) brings up all kinds of problems. Are those two uses standard actions? Do they have to be used consecutively? How do you track if you still have an extra mild power left?
Valien has a good point about that, it would not be harder to track than power points.
The best alternative I've seen is the one making all their Encounter powers Augments, but that runs into a few problems as well. The primary one being that you either have to make the Augments very general and, frankly, weak, or you have to restrict them to Augementing only specific at-wills, which is already a horrible idea I hated when they introduced it in combat styles. While the latter would work, it would limit what encounter powers you could take, even more so than the dual primary classes, because you quite literally would not be able to use them at all, since you have the wrong at-wills to take advantage of them (not to mention they'd be useless for mutliclassing since, again, you can only augment specific at-wills, which your primary class won't have).
The Augments in the Psion powers could work just fine on any At-Will with a little tweaking; remember, the augment replaces the wording of the power, so in some cases they would make the At-Will do something completly different.
The Encounters would be free actions and would have two options for use
Mild Augment:
Hit: As above, and the target cannot make opportunity attacks until the end of your next turn.
Special: you can use this augment again once bla bla bla (I'm not sure how to word that)
Full Augment
Hit: 2d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and the target takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to your Charisma modifier until the end of your next turn. (this would be a fun one to do on a Twin Strike)
In the former class,you could never have an augment that changed a power to a burst or blast because that runs into balance issues
, and any effect added by an augment would have to be fairly generic for the same reason. You'd also have to avoid an augment having any effect that any of your at-wills have, or you run into the problem of adding, say, an immobilize effect to a power that already immobilizes, unless they were stackable. Also, how would you create the lesser effect that the lower pp augments have?
If it's a full augment then they could only do it once, so how bad could it be?
I'm not saying that going with power points were necessary, I'm just saying that to create the effect they wanted, it was the best option available. And I find it hard to believe they didn't at least playtest the option of having all their encounter powers be augments, since that's a pretty obvious path everyone has already thought of. For some reason, they felt that power points worked better.
Well it's not what I wanted.
You like pictures of all the guys with noses that all look like... um... male reproductive organs? Seriously! Go look at them!
No! I like his art, and I get the feeling that following your instructions could endanger that. Your comment has been forgotten.
Besides, I've got my doubts that his people's faces would look as bad as Wayne England's faces, even if O'Connor actually intended to draw wangs in the middle of their faces. England's faces are hideous -- they're always frighteningly symmetrical, and there's never any dynamic to them at all; even the most beautiful woman in the world could look ugly from the perspective that Wayne England draws faces.
What the heck did this have to do with the Psion, again? Oh right, I didn't like the Psion picture either. It's like a picture where the camera went off at exactly the wrong time, catching a normal person with a weird face. The picture is salvageable, but the face needs to be redrawn IMHO; the shading is weird, and it doesn't improve her look.
I agree. Lurk as a class name is lame. However, a Soul Knife with Lurk features tacked on would be awesome.
Lurk in a nutshell:
-Sneak Attack class
-X per day, add something to sneak attacks
-At X level, add something else to sneak attacks
-Minor psionic abilities
---
This could easily be implemented in 4E using the Psion Augment system.
Give the "Lurk" something like sneak attack, but NOT. Such as "Add X stat modifier to damage when you have Combat Advantage".
There. Consistent, but underpowered Striker cookie.
Now, give them At-Wills that are relatively high damage unaugmented (similar to Sly Flourish...i.e. "Lurk Attack", Dex vs AC, 1 [W] + 1d6 + Dex Mod). "Lurk Attack" combined with "Lurk Sneak Attack" gives damage roughly equal to a Heroic Tier Rogue, albeit with a different FEEL.
THEN, add augments that boost the attack when the Lurk has Combat Advantage.
i.e. "Lurk Attack Augment 1: If you have CA, target is BLIND until end of your next turn. Lurk Attack Augment 2: If you have CA, target is STUNNED until the end of your next turn."
Next, add some fun class features to give the Lurk a different FEEL than the Rogue.
i.e. Lurk Movement: Spend a Minor Action to either gain a Climb Speed equal to movement speed, walk on water, teleport one square, or add a +5 to an Athletics or Acrobatics check until the beginning of your next turn.
i.e. Lurk Teleport: Spend a Minor Action and a Move Action to teleport your speed. Cannot be performed two rounds in a row.
i.e. Lurk Evasion: Spend a Move Action to gain a +2 to Defenses as an immediate interrupt.
Don't quote me on specifics, as I'm just trying to give an idea here.
Interesting concept, and thanks for the ideas! I suppose the biggest issue will be in making it distinct from the other "Rogue-y" Strikers, as you pointed out. We'll probably have a lot better idea about how that could be accomplished (or whether it's possible at all) once we see the Assassin in September -- another similar type of class. If the Lurk concept gets rolled up with another Psionic class, though, I think the sky might be the limit as far as new possibilities go. (Again, like you said, it needs to be more than just a Psionic Rogue or a Psionic Assassin.)
Which brings me back to my Soulknife > Psychic Warrior idea. First, "Psychic Warrior" is a very bland class name (which also doesn't fit 4E's one-word class naming conventions). Secondly, it's also a very bland concept; it's basically a Psionic Fighter or Psionic Paladin (without the divine flavour that makes Paladins interesting). If we bump the Soulknife into the Defender role, it can take up whatever little unique identity Psychic Warriors had; the only thematic change needed to be applied to Soulknives is that now they're more "front-line tough" than before. Soulknives certainly have a more unique shtick than Psychic Warriors; they create their own weapons with their mind! How cool is that? (The correct answer is "very cool".)
Though, I suppose if they make the psionic warrior a class with three melee at wills, and then power points to augment those at wills, it might be mechanically interesting/different from a paladin after all.
And really, the same is true of the Lurk/rogue I guess.
Hybrids would be pretty simple. If you take, say, a wizard power, whatever. If you take a Psion encounter power for a level, you get to add that +2 Power Points to your total. The systems can easily interact, really.
But what would they get as a Hybrid?
They would loose their Ritual Casting for sure -
would they only get 1/2 their power points or would they loose Send Thoughts/Distract?
Don't know who was the guy who suggested this variant (it was a lot of pages ago), but he has my total support. This option presented works much better than WotC's system. AND it fixes all the problems we have with the power points subsystem.
It doesn't give the option of using the same encounters multiple times. In other words, that option would destroy the nifty thing about the Psion, which is his lack of Effect Versatility to gain Usage Versatility. So if you were going to destroy the flavor of the class that much, you might as well put them on the same system as everyone else (Which I think is a bad idea. There's nothing wrong with the PP system, and it works fine with the rest of the game.).
Thanks Valien!
And Burning Rose, not that I'd expect everyone to hunt down my post from several pages back, but it addition to my suggestion of having Psions expend an Encounter to gain two uses of the "mild" version, I also suggested that they have a class feature allowing them to use their Encounter powers multiple times (though they can only expend the same amount of them in a given encounter as other classes, obviously).
Basically, what I intended to do in my original post was allow Psions to do everything that they can currently do, but utilizing the standard design of the other 4E classes. It was an exercise to prove that the pp system that WotC designed is unnecessarily complex. I feel that this is an issue because a major aspect of the 4E design philosophy is to have a streamlined, consistent, easy-to-use system. I'm all for increasing variation in the mechanics of different classes as they come out, but I would prefer that they conform to the streamlined system already in place.
I've heard the argument that the designers wanted to preserve power points in some form for the sake of tradition; well, that can be incorporated into my suggested Psion model as well. When you expend an Encounter power, you gain 2 power points which can be used to use a "mild" version of any Encounter power that you know. I didn't alter what I previously posted at all, I simply changed the language to make sure that power points were somehow included.
What is worse, the Psionic Warrior not only would pretty much work out like a paladin ability wise, but it would also look like a paladin stat wise (cha, strength, and wisdom). Really, in my opinion, take the paladin, change its religion class skill to arcana, change its "radiant" keyword on any powers to psychic, and you have a psionic warrior.
Though, I suppose if they make the psionic warrior a class with three melee at wills, and then power points to augment those at wills, it might be mechanically interesting/different from a paladin after all.
And really, the same is true of the Lurk/rogue I guess.
Wow, so there was basically a psionic version of every other class in 3.5E? (Psion => Wizard, Psychic Warrior => Paladin, Lurk = Rogue, Wilder => Sorcerer, etc.) I knew Psionics was redundant in 3.5E, but even I didn't know it was that bad. I didn't include Psionics because I never saw the point; it always just looked like the same old magic spells and abilities a Wizard or Cleric had, but with different names. Redundant. Boring.
Colour me extremely glad that 4E is taking steps to make Psionics both distinct and interesting!
What is worse, the Psionic Warrior not only would pretty much work out like a paladin ability wise, but it would also look like a paladin stat wise (cha, strength, and wisdom).
A random aside before I leave for work at this ungodly hour of a Saturday morning: Wizards could do something interesting for once and finally have another con-primary class beyond a pair of warlock pacts. A "psionic warrior" would be one of those few classes (other than perhaps something from the primal source) where having con as a primary stat might actually make some modicum of sense.
I'd like to see it at any rate.
Off to work now....
*sigh*
~Bizkit
Completely disagree about this part. How does it brings problems? All the questions you brought up are quite obvious. Just like using pp's to augment a at-will twice cost two standard actions (even in the case of the lower augments), so would this system. About being cast consecutively, no, it wouldn't be necessary, as the normal augment rules do not require to be cast consecutively either. And about keeping track... oh please, do you really think it's hard to track 'In this encounter, I will use this power's weaker version twice'? A lot easier than pp's, if you ask me.
The other problem is you expend an encounter power (as a free action I assume, so as not to penalize the user an action) which means you now have two uses of that weaker power, but can't go back and choose to use the strong power.
Whereas now, a Psion with 4 power points, can use the weaker version, decide he needs the stronger version, and then use the weaker version again, or use the weaker version of another power. In the other way, once he uses the weaker version of a power, he gives up the option of ever using the stronger version again (although he could use the stronger version of another power). With power points, he never gives up that option (well, until he starts to run low on pp).
Hmmm, good point, but what if they granted a free action that's only used once in conjuction with an At-Will to create the "mild power"
Took me a minute to wrap my head around that one, but I see what you're saying, and that would work, except it would mean using each augment only once, as it would be expended as an encounter power. If you accept that as an okay exchange, then that would work.
The Augments in the Psion powers could work just fine on any At-Will with a little tweaking; remember, the augment replaces the wording of the power, so in some cases they would make the At-Will do something completly different.
The Encounters would be free actions and would have two options for use
Mild Augment:
Hit: As above, and the target cannot make opportunity attacks until the end of your next turn.
Special: you can use this augment again once bla bla bla (I'm not sure how to word that)
Full Augment
Hit: 2d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and the target takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to your Charisma modifier until the end of your next turn. (this would be a fun one to do on a Twin Strike)
What you just described either falls into the first pitfall I mentioned of only working with specific at-wills, or you're making at-wills unaugmentable, and making augments into their own powers (as encounters) that have two different expressions, a weaker one and a stronger one (with the option to use the weaker one twice), which was what we discussed earlier. Again, if you're willing to give up that versatility, this does work, and it isn't any harder to track than power points, but it also isn't any easier to track than power points.
If it's a full augment then they could only do it once, so how bad could it be?
Pretty bad if you have a melee power that allows you to slide the target and shift into their space, and that power is suddenly turned into close bust 1; all creatures. You could just say you're only allowed to shift once, but then you'd have to have additional text in that augment for every effect it could potentially break.
Basically, what I intended to do in my original post was allow Psions to do everything that they can currently do, but utilizing the standard design of the other 4E classes. It was an exercise to prove that the pp system that WotC designed is unnecessarily complex. I feel that this is an issue because a major aspect of the 4E design philosophy is to have a streamlined, consistent, easy-to-use system. I'm all for increasing variation in the mechanics of different classes as they come out, but I would prefer that they conform to the streamlined system already in place.
Your design doesn't allow Psions to do everything they can do with pp, nor is it actually less complex, with regards to playing a Psion as is. It would be less complex with regards to multiclassing/hybrids.
I've heard the argument that the designers wanted to preserve power points in some form for the sake of tradition; well, that can be incorporated into my suggested Psion model as well. When you expend an Encounter power, you gain 2 power points which can be used to use a "mild" version of any Encounter power that you know. I didn't alter what I previously posted at all, I simply changed the language to make sure that power points were somehow included.
Depends on what you mean by 'expend' an encounter power. Do you mean give up an encounter power to get power points which they can then use to augment another power? That's one power for the price of 2. That is nothing like what you said originally, which was balanced. Or do you mean, each time you use an encounter power, you get power points which you can then use on another encounter power? No, I don't think I get what you're saying here, it's going to require more explanation.
The other problem is you expend an encounter power (as a free action I assume, so as not to penalize the user an action) which means you now have two uses of that weaker power, but can't go back and choose to use the strong power.
I suggested giving Psions a class feature that allowed them to use Encounter powers multiple times per encounter. Just like the WotC 4E Psion can. If you expend an encounter power, you gain two uses of a "mild" version of any encounter power that you know (or, using the language of power points, you gain 2 pp which can each be used to cast a mild power). You can still use the stronger version again (assuming you have another Encounter slot to expend), since Psions can use Encounter powers multiple times.
Example: A WotC Psion has 4 total pp. My Psion has 2 encounter powers. A WotC Psion, in an encounter, can either cast 4 weak augments, 2 strong augments, or a strong augment and 2 weak augments. My Psion can expend both Encounter powers to gain 4 "mild" versions (or 4 pp, if you choose to call them that), use the 2 Encounter powers as normal (except he can use the same one twice if that floats his boat), or use an Encounter and expend an Encounter to gain 2 "mild" versions.
Mechanically, the two systems are the same except that mine uses the existing a-w/e/d structure (with slight modification of Encounter powers), while WotC introduces pps, augmentable at-wills, gaining new at-wills, etc.
And yes, my design would likely have at-will pre-reqs for Encounter powers, which is exactly the same as augmenting an at-will into an "encounter" power using pp. This way the flavor even remains the same (mine has encounter powers, but in fluff terms the Psion is still using a more powerful version of an ability he already knows and can cast at-will).
Your design doesn't allow Psions to do everything they can do with pp, nor is it actually less complex, with regards to playing a Psion as is. It would be less complex with regards to multiclassing/hybrids.
See above, hopefully that clears things up. If I'm overlooking any aspect of the current Psion, however, it's because I don't have a DnDi subscription and am simply going on the discussions from the various Psion threads.
Mechanically it's not less complex, I admit. If it were, it wouldn't be mechanically the same, and my intent was to preserve the mechanics. My design is less complex because it adheres to the existing system, so if you were trying to explain to someone who had never played before "this is fundamentally how classes work in DnD," it would apply to all classes.
Depends on what you mean by 'expend' an encounter power. Do you mean give up an encounter power to get power points which they can then use to augment another power? That's one power for the price of 2. That is nothing like what you said originally, which was balanced. Or do you mean, each time you use an encounter power, you get power points which you can then use on another encounter power? No, I don't think I get what you're saying here, it's going to require more explanation.
Does my response to the first quote help with this? My design does not incorporate any elements giving the Psion 1 power for the price of 2. Moreover, my "pps" aren't the same as the current one. I only included the term out of "tradition;" they're really not necessary to my design (all that is necessary is the a-w/e/d system, just like for every other class.
And in case anyone is interested, below is my original post (on page 6 of this discussion).
Show
Hmmm...so they have fewer unique powers, but they can use "encounter" powers multiple times per encounter. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me, but I guess I'll wait to see it in action before I pass judgment. The new sub-system does kind of irk me though. Part of what I love about 4E is that it's so easy to explain to new people who've never played DnD before (in comparison to 3.x, at least). Now it's just a little more complicated if Psionic classes are figured into the mix. I understand that augmenting at-wills is functionally not that different from using encounter powers, but if that's the case then why change the system at all?
Think about classes in 3.x; Psions and spellcasters were more similar to each other than spellcasters were with "martial" classes. Enter 4E, where even Fighters and Wizards operate using the same basic structure while still retaining the flavor of the classes! But Psionic had to be different (they always do).
Here's an alternative which functions pretty much exactly as I gather the Psion functions (no DnDi, so I can't be sure), but stays in line with the current system:
Psions get encounter powers, but one of their class features is that they can use them multiple times (they can use the same # of encounter powers per encounter as other classes, they can just use powers multiple times if they wish). To simulate spending 1 pp (powerpoint, as opposed to PP for Paragon Path) instead of 2 to augment at-wills with the Psion as is, instead they could have given each encounter power an additional entry (let's call it Mild Powers, which is lame I know but I can't think of anything cooler right now). To use Mild Powers you expend the use of one encounter power (free action) in order to gain two uses of any mild power you know (each of your Encounters would have a downgraded mild power version). Same gosh-darn effect, right? Except it's consistent with the other power sources (so 4E remains the streamlined thing of beauty that it is). No keeping track of power points. No changing out at-wills. Less mess over multiclassing/hybrid classing. They still get their schtick, but now in terms of divergence from the basic system it's more in line with the Druid (special powers can only be used in beast form), Shaman (powers interact with spirit companion), and Barbarian (Rages gain additional effects and buffs which last the entire encounter). Heck, you want to still keep the Psion's ability to augment? Give it something like the Barbarian's Rage Strike as well (expend an encounter power to allow your at-will to do this extra thing).
It took me 5 minutes to come up with that. And it's more parsimonious than WotC's new subsystem. Why complicate things when you can achieve the same effect using the existing framework? To provide the illusion of novelty?
End rant. It's not like anything is going to change at this point with PHB3, but PLEASE don't use future power sources as an excuse to complicate things ever further! I guess it is what it is at this point and if it works then whatever. If nothing else it seems like it'd be pretty easy to "re-flavor" how you describe the Psion's abilities (more or less what my example did) in a manner more consistent with the existing system.
I suggested giving Psions a class feature that allowed them to use Encounter powers multiple times per encounter. Just like the WotC 4E Psion can. If you expend an encounter power, you gain two uses of a "mild" version of any encounter power that you know (or, using the language of power points, you gain 2 pp which can each be used to cast a mild power). You can still use the stronger version again (assuming you have another Encounter slot to expend), since Psions can use Encounter powers multiple times.
Example: A WotC Psion has 4 total pp. My Psion has 2 encounter powers. A WotC Psion, in an encounter, can either cast 4 weak augments, 2 strong augments, or a strong augment and 2 weak augments. My Psion can expend both Encounter powers to gain 4 "mild" versions (or 4 pp, if you choose to call them that), use the 2 Encounter powers as normal (except he can use the same one twice if that floats his boat), or use an Encounter and expend an Encounter to gain 2 "mild" versions.
Mechanically, the two systems are the same except that mine uses the existing a-w/e/d structure (with slight modification of Encounter powers), while WotC introduces pps, augmentable at-wills, gaining new at-wills, etc.
And yes, my design would likely have at-will pre-reqs for Encounter powers, which is exactly the same as augmenting an at-will into an "encounter" power using pp. This way the flavor even remains the same (mine has encounter powers, but in fluff terms the Psion is still using a more powerful version of an ability he already knows and can cast at-will).
See above, hopefully that clears things up. If I'm overlooking any aspect of the current Psion, however, it's because I don't have a DnDi subscription and am simply going on the discussions from the various Psion threads.
Mechanically it's not less complex, I admit. If it were, it wouldn't be mechanically the same, and my intent was to preserve the mechanics. My design is less complex because it adheres to the existing system, so if you were trying to explain to someone who had never played before "this is fundamentally how classes work in DnD," it would apply to all classes.
Does my response to the first quote help with this? My design does not incorporate any elements giving the Psion 1 power for the price of 2. Moreover, my "pps" aren't the same as the current one. I only included the term out of "tradition;" they're really not necessary to my design (all that is necessary is the a-w/e/d system, just like for every other class.
And in case anyone is interested, below is my original post (on page 6 of this discussion).
Honestly, your system sounds a lot more complex to me right now. Power Points are pretty simple: You have these points. You can spend them on powers to make them better. Yay. (Also, wasting an encounter power to get two "mild" powers would feel like utter useless suck. I don't care if it's functionally the same, it would feel WAY different, and that DOES matter.)
I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree on this one. My design deviates from the established class structure less than WotC's, as I've merely added an additional element to encounter powers (the ability to trade an Encounter for 2 less potent uses), and given the Psion a class feature allowing him to use Encounter powers multiple times.
It's not pps themselves that aren't simple, it's all the other changes that needed to happen in order to incorporate them (updating at-wills, augments, lack of encounter powers).
If you feel like "downgrading" encounter powers would suck, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Personally, I feel like a player looking at the Psion for the first time would think "wait, it doesn't get Encounter powers and I have to use my at-wills even more? This sucks!" And it terms of "weakening" the encounter powers, I would honestly feel like it's a pretty good deal if the "mild" effect were good enough to do the job, since you've just given yourself an extra round of said effect (assuming you hit again).
Of course different people will have different opinions about the "feel" of how the mechanics were implemented. In the end though, it is what it is. WotC already made their Psion and it's not going to change. My intent was not to say that it should be a different way, but rather that it could have been done without changing the existing class structure as much as they did.
Not to mention the difficulty in balancing by allowing any augment to be put on any ability...
The example you quoted would not come into play with my system, as I've essentially done away with the extra augment mechanic (it's unnecessary since my Psion has Encounter powers).
If it's harder to understand, it's not a better system.
And, you're forgetting about the updating At-wills section. That's important as well; your system completely throws that away.
My system intentionally throws away updating at-wills. As I understand it, the WotC Psion needs to update at-wills to keep it's "Encounter" powers up to par. They need to do this because they don't gain Encounter powers. My Psion does, so the problem is avoided.
I really don't see what's harder to understand about my system. Perhaps it's because I spent zero time polishing the language, unlike the writers who did the Psion, or perhaps it's because I tried explaining it in a roundabout way (i.e. base class structure > how WotC changed that > reverse engineering their mechanics back to base class structure, and explaining why it's the same). Maybe it would help to have it written out in Encounter power text blocks, who knows. I'm certainly not going to take any effort to refine the language though, since once again, WotC is not changing the Psion.
I do think it's telling though, that as soon as I read about the new Psion design I was immediately and with minimal effort able to reconstruct the system so that it adhered more to the original structure.
Also, while Psions do update at-wills in order to gain access to better "encounter" effects, it also has the side effect of giving them wider options of things they can do all the time. Even with half a preview, a high level Psion gets about twice as many options for effects on their at-will powers as other classes, which emphasizes their versatility.
My system intentionally throws away updating at-wills. As I understand it, the WotC Psion needs to update at-wills to keep it's "Encounter" powers up to par. They need to do this because they don't gain Encounter powers. My Psion does, so the problem is avoided
First off, I understand that you're not saying it should be "this way" or "that way", but that it could have been and it would be "simpler". First thing I will say is: Less deviation does not mean simpler.
Secondly, the added versatility of the at-wills was something they wanted for the Psion. You can't claim that a different approach accomplishes the same but in a simpler fashion when it doesn't accomplish everything the same way. The difference in kinds of versatility that the Psions get from the augment system is part of how they were intended to work. Yes, they could have been done following the same system, or with less deviation, but then what's the point? In that case, why don't we have four classes: Defender, Leader, Striker, and Controller, and just have a bunch of different power choices for them? It makes everything simpler!
EDIT: Also, wow 11 pages.
I think the issue is that adhering more to the original structure =/= less complex. It is possible to replicate what Wizards has done without breaking from the at-will/encounter/daily structure, but that doesn't mean you can do so elegantly.
Also, while Psions do update at-wills in order to gain access to better "encounter" effects, it also has the side effect of giving them wider options of things they can do all the time. Even with half a preview, a high level Psion gets about twice as many options for effects on their at-will powers as other classes, which emphasizes their versatility.
First off, I understand that you're not saying it should be "this way" or "that way", but that it could have been and it would be "simpler". First thing I will say is: Less deviation does not mean simpler.
Secondly, the added versatility of the at-wills was something they wanted for the Psion. You can't claim that a different approach accomplishes the same but in a simpler fashion when it doesn't accomplish everything the same way. The difference in kinds of versatility that the Psions get from the augment system is part of how they were intended to work. Yes, they could have been done following the same system, or with less deviation, but then what's the point? In that case, why don't we have four classes: Defender, Leader, Striker, and Controller, and just have a bunch of different power choices for them? It makes everything simpler!
EDIT: Also, wow 11 pages.
Hmm, based on what I've been reading I wouldn't call the Psion that WotC designed "elegant," but perhaps I was a bit premature in trying to devise a superior alternative based merely on these discussions. I'll admit that I wasn't quite sure how the at-will updates worked, and that probably made them easier to ignore. I had assumed that the "updated" at-wills were fairly similar to the lower level ones, but stronger.
I hadn't really thought much about the concept of re-training to higher level at-wills, but I suppose it does make for an interesting concept. Instead of having a few basic tricks that they use throughout their career, they change their fundamental abilities as they level.
And I realize that your "example" was hyperbole, but I certainly wouldn't advocate 4 classes (corresponding to the roles)! I'm not against complexity, just unnecessary complexity. I guess I'll reserve further judgment until I see the class in print.
And I realize that your "example" was hyperbole, but I certainly wouldn't advocate 4 classes (corresponding to the roles)
Of course! If you want to win an argument, just make a hyperbole and then compare it to your opponent's argument (Or better yet, your opponent! (MY OPPONENT IS WORSE THAN THE BIGGEST IDIOT IN HISTORY))! :P
As far as I can tell, what Psions get is a tradeoff in versatility. As many people have said in threads already, Psions have (Currently, I imagine Telekinesis will have pretty much the exact opposite kind of effects) fairly limited selection of effects to choose from, and even then they get less actual effects to use in a fight (Usually the augmented at-will is a similar effect to the normal, after all). But what they lose in effect-versatility, they gain in usage versatility. If that one power is just really useful in this situation, you can use it 3 times instead of your other powers.
In other words, take this analogy:
3.5 Wizard : 3.5 Sorcerer :: 4e Wizard : 4e Psion
It's a cool kind of diversity that I think is both warranted and appropriate, considering: No matter how you reflavor it, as a telepathic psion, you're still just boring into people's minds and breaking stuff. And the Psion brings a kind of controller to the table that many people have wanted for a long time (Many fans of the 3.5 wizard seem to really enjoy the Psion as far as I can tell).
I think the issue is that adhering more to the original structure =/= less complex. It is possible to replicate what Wizards has done without breaking from the at-will/encounter/daily structure, but that doesn't mean you can do so elegantly.
Also, while Psions do update at-wills in order to gain access to better "encounter" effects, it also has the side effect of giving them wider options of things they can do all the time. Even with half a preview, a high level Psion gets about twice as many options for effects on their at-will powers as other classes, which emphasizes their versatility.
And as we say often on these boards, "That's a feature, not a bug."
Personally, I don't see a damned thing wrong with the way Psions are.
EDIT: This was my 2000th post on these boards! (Since 2005.)
And as we say often on these boards, "That's a feature, not a bug."
Personally, I don't see a damned thing wrong with the way Psions are.
Nor do I. I utterly disagree with the assertions that the structure WotC made isn't elegant. That is precisely what I see the structure of their class layout as. Elegant. Far more elegant that any alternative I've seen proposed. Power points as implemented are more elegant and easier to keep track of than encounter powers themselves, with an added versatility of usage, at the cost of decreased versatility of access. What's more, multiclassing is easy to implement with a single, simple addition to ONLY the Novice Power feat.
Nor do I. I utterly disagree with the assertions that the structure WotC made isn't elegant. That is precisely what I see the structure of their class layout as. Elegant. Far more elegant that any alternative I've seen proposed. Power points as implemented are more elegant and easier to keep track of than encounter powers themselves, with an added versatility of usage, at the cost of decreased versatility of access. What's more, multiclassing is easy to implement with a single, simple addition to ONLY the Novice Power feat.
Thank you for summing up all that I have to say :P.
Nor do I. I utterly disagree with the assertions that the structure WotC made isn't elegant. That is precisely what I see the structure of their class layout as. Elegant. Far more elegant that any alternative I've seen proposed. Power points as implemented are more elegant and easier to keep track of than encounter powers themselves, with an added versatility of usage, at the cost of decreased versatility of access. What's more, multiclassing is easy to implement with a single, simple addition to ONLY the Novice Power feat.
I agree completely.
Earlier in the thread, I mentioned that I believe the biggest detractors of the 4E Psion are people who haven't actually looked at the class for themselves.
I'm digging it. The proof will be in the pudding, when I actually get to play one in a delve soon. I am pretty excited and think it will work out well.
I'm playing one in LFR tomorrow. :D I'm still torn between Kalashtar and changeling, though. Do I go for shapeshifting (yay, love it!), overall better social skills, and slightly better stats? Or, do I go for secretive communication between party members (eventually all party members in a close burst 10 permanently centered on me, woo), better Will defense, and eventual resist to psychic damage, at the cost of slightly weaker stats?
I'm thinking Kalashtar. I lurve me some permanent telepathy for the whole group.
I'm playing one in LFR tomorrow. :D I'm still torn between Kalashtar and changeling, though. Do I go for shapeshifting (yay, love it!), overall better social skills, and slightly better stats? Or, do I go for secretive communication between party members (eventually all party members in a close burst 10 permanently centered on me, woo), better Will defense, and eventual resist to psychic damage, at the cost of slightly weaker stats?
I'm thinking Kalashtar. I lurve me some permanent telepathy for the whole group.
I would go with Kalashtar. I love the Quori group Mind link feat. I am currently playing a Kalashtar Paladin in an Eberron Campaign, and wish he would die so I could go Psion!
Maybe I will try it out in a delve first and if I like it will do all I can to get him to die, unless Divine power tomorrow really gets me enamored with the Paladin.BTW let us know how it plays in the game tomorrow!
I would go with Kalashtar. I love the Quori group Mind link feat. I am currently playing a Kalashtar Paladin in an Eberron Campaign, and wish he would die so I could go Psion!
BTW let us know how it plays in the game tomorrow!
Yeah...will do. :D If the PH3 comes out with a psion or Psionic class feat that can gives mindlink and/or group mindlink, all bets are off, though! I'll totally have to re-roll and make it a changeling. Thematically, I don't REALLY change shape, I just make people think they are seeing something different in their mind. Sooo cool conceptually as a character.
I never liked the Tiefling until I was looking at the Psion and man it would be cool. The +2 Int and +2 Cha is great, but the thought of some infernal Psion is just cool. I could see flames licking from his finger as he points to slap some dude around the battle field.
I would go with Kalashtar. I love the Quori group Mind link feat. I am currently playing a Kalashtar Paladin in an Eberron Campaign, and wish he would die so I could go Psion!
BTW let us know how it plays in the game tomorrow!
Why don't you ask your DM if you can restart your character as a Kalashtar Psion (multiclass Paladin)? That way you can preserve a lot of the fluff you've built for your character, and head off the worst of the MAD. (You'll no doubt be a much better Psion than Paladin afterwards, mind you...) Out of curiosity, does your Paladin worship the Path of Light? If any character fits the Psion/Paladin combination, it's a Kalashtar who worships the Path of Light. Myself, as a DM, I really hate it when players given up on a potentially cool character just because they wanna play something else; I think it's better to try to develop new concepts into an existing character.
The biggest pain about trying to add a Psion to an existing character is the fact that at this point, we've got neither a multiclass feat for it (AFAIK, but maybe I'm wrong) nor a Wisdom-secondary build, which means that the class combinations that work with Psion at this point are pretty limited. Later on, I think Kalashtar Psion/Cleric would be an even better combo than Psion/Paladin, especially if you remember that Clerics aren't really "priests" so much as "templars" or "holy warriors", much the same way Paladins are.
You know what, that is a cool concept for a character. Another thought I had is that a Tiefling Psion would be awesome.
I never liked the Tiefling until I was looking at the Psion and man it would be cool. The +2 Int and +2 Cha is great, but the thought of some infernal Psion is just cool. I could see flames licking from his finger as he points to slap some dude around the battle field.
You totally set their mind on fire. On FIRE! I'd totally make that a "natural" firestarter. Everything around it, including people's thoughts, get hotter and hotter.
You totally set their mind on fire. On FIRE! I'd totally make that a "natural" firestarter. Everything around it, including people's thoughts, get hotter and hotter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBQZH-9AC9s
/sarcasm off
There's a lot of races that would make really good psions. Some of them I don't see working as well thematically, like Genasi (Discipline.... what?), but most of them fit really well. Intelligence as a main score was a good choice by WotC, I would say.
I expect one of the Psionic classes to use Charisma as a main stat, at least one, but it would have made things like Dragonborn and Halflings better Psions than Eladrin or any of the gith. That would be bad.
My first step towards this in my homebrew is implementing floating stat bonuses for all races. (i.e.: All races add +2 to any two ability scores, one of which must be one of the ability scores to which the race gets a bonus according to RAW. In the case of Humans, they simply get a +2 bonus to any two abilities.) It's got bugs, sure, but it allows for more "optimal" characters in any race-class combination, which leads to more variety of characters overall. It's my opinion that the job of encouraging certain races into certain classes should fall to sweet racial feats that reward Dwarves for being Fighters, Paladins, Clerics and Artificers, for example.
Personally, I'm a bit tired of the notion that "X player-race doesn't make a good Y class". It's a handy idea (hell, even an interesting one) for NPCs and average-joe Dwarves and Elves in the world, but for PCs I think it's absolute BS that I wish the game would/could do away with.
It's hard to argue how gnomes should make as good a fighter or barbarian as a goliath. Just saying.
Why don't you ask your DM if you can restart your character as a Kalashtar Psion (multiclass Paladin)? That way you can preserve a lot of the fluff you've built for your character, and head off the worst of the MAD. (You'll no doubt be a much better Psion than Paladin afterwards, mind you...) Out of curiosity, does your Paladin worship the Path of Light? If any character fits the Psion/Paladin combination, it's a Kalashtar who worships the Path of Light. Myself, as a DM, I really hate it when players given up on a potentially cool character just because they wanna play something else; I think it's better to try to develop new concepts into an existing character.
Hey Doctorhoook, I agree. My statement was made more in jest. My DM is actually really cool and if I went to him and came up with a plausible story hook for my Paldin becoming a Psion he would work with it. The campaign I am playing the Paladin in is only 3 or 4 weeks old. (we play every other week) So I have only played him 2 sessions. I want to develop him more and see what cool stuff Divine Power brings out. My DM already gave me carte blanche to make any changes I might want to after it is out.I am serving The Path of Light yes, so maybe if they ever mutliclass Psion it will be a good fit.
Until then the opposite Friday we play delves so that will give me a good chance to play the Psion a few times. I think I will try out the Tiefling Psion first.
Tieflings make great Psions as well.
Been following the thread?
It's hard to argue how gnomes should make as good a fighter or barbarian as a goliath. Just saying.
Personally, I'm a bit tired of the notion that "X player-race doesn't make a good Y class". It's a handy idea (hell, even an interesting one) for NPCs and average-joe Dwarves and Elves in the world, but for PCs I think it's absolute BS that I wish the game would/could do away with.
To each their own. I like it, personally. That doesn' mean you can't make a Tiefling fighter or a Gnome barbarian. (I have) But the idea that race more often better at a specific class than others isn't, IMHO, a bad thing. I look at a Goliath or a Minotaur and I think big burly martial type classes. If a Goliath was suddenly INT/CHA it would give me a WTF moment. To me, every race getting +2 to any two stats just kills the flavor of the race.
Personally, I'm a bit tired of the notion that "X player-race doesn't make a good Y class". It's a handy idea (hell, even an interesting one) for NPCs and average-joe Dwarves and Elves in the world, but for PCs I think it's absolute BS that I wish the game would/could do away with.
Not everyone picks race/class combos strictly on ability score bonuses that match attack stat. They are less common, but they do exist. In my group, there is a eladrin fighter/wizard and an elf paladin-warlock. These two characters are by no means significantly inferior to the other characters that have 18's to all of the primary attack stats. They perform quite well and make as significant a contribution as the rest.
Not everyone picks race/class combos strictly on ability score bonuses that match attack stat. They are less common, but they do exist. In my group, there is a eladrin fighter/wizard and an elf paladin-warlock. These two characters are by no means significantly inferior to the other characters that have 18's to all of the primary attack stats. They perform quite well and make as significant a contribution as the rest.
That's the beauty of fourth edition.
It's hard to argue how gnomes should make as good a fighter or barbarian as a goliath. Just saying.
Possibly, but isn't the "little-guy/giant-slayer" an archetype of its own? In my opinion, it should be a player's choice of class that determines how competent their character is at certain activities, not their choice of race; in other words, as far as I'm concerned, it's being a Fighter, not being a Half-Orc or Minotaur, that should make a character a good Fighter.
Bear in mind two important caveats of this position, though:[indent]1.) What's good for PCs isn't necessarily good for NPCs. I'm never going to say that every NPC Dwarf should be a Wizard or Bard, for example. However, I do believe PCs shouldn't have to be limited to what NPCs are good at.
2.) I'm not suggesting that all races should be equally suited to the same "style" or build of each class. In fact, I'll argue the opposite; Gnomes should excel at very different style of Fighter than Minotaurs, for example. However, I do believe that generally speaking, and ignoring feats, PPs, and EDs*, player characters of every race ought to be able to excel in every class.[/indent]
*Feats, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies play a special part in this concept. I believe that it's these optional mechanics (as in, character options that players can choose or not choose) that should encourage members of each race into "traditional" classes for that race. For example, highly useful feats would be available to Elves who became Druids or Rangers, and these feats would only be available to Elven Druids and Elven Rangers. Feats, PPs, and EDs should serve to highlight "classic" options, and to emphasize the differences between our Elven Archer Ranger and his buddy, a Razorclaw Shifter Archer Ranger.
To each their own. I like it, personally. That doesn' mean you can't make a Tiefling fighter or a Gnome barbarian. (I have) But the idea that race more often better at a specific class than others isn't, IMHO, a bad thing. I look at a Goliath or a Minotaur and I think big burly martial type classes. If a Goliath was suddenly INT/CHA it would give me a WTF moment. To me, every race getting +2 to any two stats just kills the flavor of the race.
Ahh, you misunderstand me: I said that I don't like the idea of any race being bad at any class, not that I don't like any race being good at any class! In fact, if you'll reread my post, I suggested the opposite. As far as "killing the flavour of the race", I definitely want the flavour of each race to come from how that race works in any class, not from what class that race often chooses.
Additionally, I don't think you understood the houserule I suggested; a Goliath would have to put at least one of his bonuses into Strength or Constitution. This way, a Goliath character can excel in a wider variety of classes, even though his (NPC) fellows mostly stick to being Barbarians, for example.
That said, why would it be so wrong to meet a player character Goliath who was an excellent Psion or Wizard? Isn't the "gentle giant" another archetype? Again, I'm not suggesting that NPC Goliaths should all be good at Wizardry, but if a player decides to make himself a very unique character (a Goliath Wizard, for example), why should that player be punished with being sub-optimal? Isn't D&D about making interesting fantasy characters?
Not everyone picks race/class combos strictly on ability score bonuses that match attack stat. They are less common, but they do exist. In my group, there is a eladrin fighter/wizard and an elf paladin-warlock. These two characters are by no means significantly inferior to the other characters that have 18's to all of the primary attack stats. They perform quite well and make as significant a contribution as the rest.
That's the beauty of fourth edition.
You're right, lot of players don't do it, and 4E is a lot better about it than previous editions were. Credit should be given where it's due. That said, in my mind we're so close to getting it right that it would be a shame to stop right before the finish line, so to speak.
They're also on Wolves. Imagine if that was a goliath on wolves. Those other guys would be SO SCREWED.
I'll do you one better:
What scares me is that some one is going to make a movie about D-day some two hundred years hence and the entire American landing force is going to surf into the bay and kill the Nazis in a series of graceful kung-fu matches culminating with an epic fencing match between FDR and Hitler. Halfway through the fighting, Patton will declare himself to be a Japanese double agent and reveal his people have tunneled through the earth itself to emerge on the shores of Normandy. The climax of the movie will be when the Russians show up to save the day. They will be wielding swords and mounted on bears. The giant disembodied head of Stalin may appear in the clouds and cry out "Allahu Ackbar!" There might be some starships involved.
I someday hope to see this film. :P
...and the entire American landing force is going to surf into the bay and kill the Nazis in a series of graceful kung-fu matches culminating with an epic fencing match between FDR and Hitler.
Sadly, I don't think FDR would win.
I someday hope to see this film. :P
Me too....me too. :embarrass
Sadly, I don't think FDR would win.
He'd be a cyborg! Then he would win!
Just making a statement that they have confirmed 4 psionic classes for phb3. The article on psionics mentions 3 classes that use power points, since monk doesnt its not included in those thus 4 psionic classes. 2 of which we do not know.
That's not really a confirmation of 4 Psionic classes so much as a confirmation of at least 4 Psionic classes. But maybe that's what you meant.
That's not really a confirmation of 4 Psionic classes so much as a confirmation of at least 4 Psionic classes. But maybe that's what you meant.
No its four they said 3 power point using classes. Not 3 or more. I imagine every psionic class other than monk is using power points at least that would be my assumption.
For exemple I'd like one that has no daily but augmentable encounter powers with daily power points.
And one with the normal power allotments but a specific class feature fueled by power points (Leader healing maybe?).
I hope they don't all follow the same pattern as the Psion even if they use Power Point.
For exemple I'd like one that has no daily but augmentable encounter powers with daily power points.
And one with the normal power allotments but a specific class feature fueled by power points (Leader healing maybe?).
No clue I imagine most of them will be the same though to make the PP system itself unified.
No its four they said 3 power point using classes. Not 3 or more. I imagine every psionic class other than monk is using power points at least that would be my assumption.
No. They said 3 psionic classes that use power points. They said absolutely nothing about the number of psionic classes that don't use power points. Therefore, they did not confirm a maximum of 4 psionic classes.
No clue I imagine most of them will be the same though to make the PP system itself unified.
I am able to tolerate a Power Point mechanic (I don't gotta like it, I just gotta eat it :D) but I really hope it's not a different Power Point mechanic for each psionic class. That would get really annoying.
I am able to tolerate a Power Point mechanic (I don't gotta like it, I just gotta eat it :D) but I really hope it's not a different Power Point mechanic for each psionic class. That would get really annoying.
It seems that the power point mechanic and augmentation of at-will powers is designed to be equivalent to encounter powers. If they already balanced the power point mechanic properly with the psion, it would not really make much sense to have a different value of power points and augmentation option for another class. I just cannot see the point of doing that. I think that the power point mechanic will be the same for all classes that use at-wills and augmentation instead of encounter powers.
It seems that the power point mechanic and augmentation of at-will powers is designed to be equivalent to encounter powers. If they already balanced the power point mechanic properly with the psion, it would not really make much sense to have a different value of power points and augmentation option for another class. I just cannot see the point of doing that. I think that the power point mechanic will be the same for all classes that use at-wills and augmentation instead of encounter powers.
That's my assumption too; I'm just hoping nobody decided that it would be way clever* to do something else with power points instead.
* Because it wouldn't. :D
No. They said 3 psionic classes that use power points. They said absolutely nothing about the number of psionic classes that don't use power points. Therefore, they did not confirm a maximum of 4 psionic classes.
I expect every psionic class except monk to use power points.
I dunno... I could see the Psionic Leader needing to spend power points to fuel his class feature healing power but otherwise have normal powers. That way being able to switch pps around would make things interesting.
I can see his heals being augmentable at wills.
I dunno... I could see the Psionic Leader needing to spend power points to fuel his class feature healing power but otherwise have normal powers. That way being able to switch pps around would make things interesting.
The psion only uses power points to augment the at-wills and the encounter power of the paragon path. If you decide to add to the abilities that use power points, you start to make the power point system for that class better than the psion unless you do something to counter balance it. Suppose the psionic leader uses the power point pool to power his healing abilities in addition to the at-wills and PP encounter power, you now end up with a character that may have more power points and more abilities that use power points. Now you can repeatedly use those extra power points for power. Your leader could forgo his healing ability and use those power points to fully augment at-wills. In essence he gets the equivalent of 3 uses of encounter attack powers (2 from the equivalent of the Word healing encounter powers of other leader).
Even if you start to change the cost of the Word power or anything else, the effect is you can potentially end up with more encounter-equivalent attack powers than any other class. The more abilities you include that uses power points, the more the power point system can be abused. You have to give them more power points and those additional power points could potentially be used to spam certain powers.
Psions can transfer 1 power point to another character. I would expect that 1 power point is the same amount of power for any psionic class that uses power points. If you include healing abilities in the list of abilities that uses power points, the leader will then have to start off with more power points than a psion which could lead to it using those points strictly for augmenting the at-wills. This would make it too powerful.
The psion only uses power points to augment the at-wills and the encounter power of the paragon path. If you decide to add to the abilities that use power points, you start to make the power point system for that class better than the psion unless you do something to counter balance it. Suppose the psionic leader uses the power point pool to power his healing abilities in addition to the at-wills and PP encounter power, you now end up with a character that may have more power points and more abilities that use power points. Now you can repeatedly use those extra power points for power. Your leader could forgo his healing ability and use those power points to fully augment at-wills. In essence he gets the equivalent of 3 uses of encounter attack powers (2 from the equivalent of the Word healing encounter powers of other leader).
Even if you start to change the cost of the Word power or anything else, the effect is you can potentially end up with more encounter-equivalent attack powers than any other class. The more abilities you include that uses power points, the more the power point system can be abused. You have to give them more power points and those additional power points could potentially be used to spam certain powers.
Psions can transfer 1 power point to another character. I would expect that 1 power point is the same amount of power for any psionic class that uses power points. If you include healing abilities in the list of abilities that uses power points, the leader will then have to start off with more power points than a psion which could lead to it using those points strictly for augmenting the at-wills. This would make it too powerful.
im thinking its more the psion is teh only one who can use it to augment at wills. the leader would have a class ability simialr to channell divinity.
i also see power point pool as a benefit in a multiclass psion feat for classes with a non psionic power source.
But really, I think that's treading on dangerous ground "design-wise" - if each Psionic class works very differently from the others, it's not only a pain in the tail to manage, it also makes them all feel like one-offs, or at most being tied together with a vague theme like "flexibility" or "everyone's powers work differently." Also, I would guess that more variation, the harder it is for the designers to monitor class balance.
I expect every psionic class except monk to use power points.
If there is a Soul Knife class, I doubt it will use power points.
If there is a Soul Knife class, I doubt it will use power points.
4 for one power source is also the most we have seen for a single power source in a phb. And I expect them to combine psychic warrior with soul knife.
The psion only uses power points to augment the at-wills and the encounter power of the paragon path. If you decide to add to the abilities that use power points, you start to make the power point system for that class better than the psion unless you do something to counter balance it. Suppose the psionic leader uses the power point pool to power his healing abilities in addition to the at-wills and PP encounter power, you now end up with a character that may have more power points and more abilities that use power points. Now you can repeatedly use those extra power points for power. Your leader could forgo his healing ability and use those power points to fully augment at-wills. In essence he gets the equivalent of 3 uses of encounter attack powers (2 from the equivalent of the Word healing encounter powers of other leader).
Even if you start to change the cost of the Word power or anything else, the effect is you can potentially end up with more encounter-equivalent attack powers than any other class. The more abilities you include that uses power points, the more the power point system can be abused. You have to give them more power points and those additional power points could potentially be used to spam certain powers.
Psions can transfer 1 power point to another character. I would expect that 1 power point is the same amount of power for any psionic class that uses power points. If you include healing abilities in the list of abilities that uses power points, the leader will then have to start off with more power points than a psion which could lead to it using those points strictly for augmenting the at-wills. This would make it too powerful.
My idea was that the leader would have his 'Word' augmentable but the rest of its power would NOT have the Augment key word. It would probably end up with less Power Points overall than the Psion but they would still be an encounter based ressource.
No its four they said 3 power point using classes. Not 3 or more. I imagine every psionic class other than monk is using power points at least that would be my assumption.
You don't see where your logic failed here? CelticMutt explains it for you below:
No. They said 3 psionic classes that use power points. They said absolutely nothing about the number of psionic classes that don't use power points. Therefore, they did not confirm a maximum of 4 psionic classes.
I expect every psionic class except monk to use power points.
Your expectations don't prove anything.
4 for one power source is also the most we have seen for a single power source in a phb.
Two data points doesn't make a pattern; PH3 might present five Psionic classes for all we know. Beyond this, you seem to be assuming for some reason that no Psionic classes will appear outside of PH3, when in fact some of the Psionic classes they've mentioned could very well be slated to appear in another location -- a setting Player's Guide, or a D&DI Exclusive article, for example. (Consider the fact that the Bard and Swordmage were mostly designed in time for PH1, but were saved for future books.)
You don't see where your logic failed here? CelticMutt explains it for you below:
Your expectations don't prove anything.
Two data points doesn't make a pattern; PH3 might present five Psionic classes for all we know. Beyond this, you seem to be assuming for some reason that no Psionic classes will appear outside of PH3, when in fact some of the Psionic classes they've mentioned could very well be slated to appear in another location -- a setting Player's Guide, or a D&DI Exclusive article, for example. (Consider the fact that the Bard and Swordmage were mostly designed in time for PH1, but were saved for future books.)
Uh I never said that I expect future psionic classes just that there will be four in phb3 and that 3 will be psionic if they keep to form. I expect there to be 6 eventually since from aperances that seems to be the average number if they print 2 divine and primal in phb3 with martial being the odd man out with only 4.
It would probably end up with less Power Points overall than the Psion but they would still be an encounter based ressource.
I highly doubt that. If the individual Power points mean more to any of the classes, the feat that lets you transfer them becomes a lot more important.
For example: at level 10, the Psion has 6 PP. If the Empath had only 2 PP, then the Psion transferring one to the Empath means a lot more for the party. It's not very balanced.
I highly doubt that. If the individual Power points mean more to any of the classes, the feat that lets you transfer them becomes a lot more important.
For example: at level 10, the Psion has 6 PP. If the Empath had only 2 PP, then the Psion transferring one to the Empath means a lot more for the party. It's not very balanced.
The difference wouldn't be THAT wide though.
And I'm not a designer... It was just a random thought.
My idea was that the leader would have his 'Word' augmentable but the rest of its power would NOT have the Augment key word. It would probably end up with less Power Points overall than the Psion but they would still be an encounter based ressource.
Interesting idea. However, I get the impression that the other psionic classes will use power points the same way as the psion.
In this new system, power points become the character's primary encounter-based resource, taking the place of his or her encounter attack powers.
This would indicate to me that other psionic classes that use power points will do so the same way as the psion. If other classes use power points in different ways, you have the additional complexity of trying to equate power points used by the psionic leader for healing and the psion's equivalent of augmenting at-wills to be the equivalent of encounter powers.
And I expect them to combine psychic warrior with soul knife.
Perhaps a Soulblade, a psionic defender who can project a sword of energy and use telekinetic pushes and deflection, and can use some telepathic powers to influence people. "These are not the golems you are looking for..." Oh, wait.