PHB3, Monk hybrid Question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

PHB3, Monk hybrid Question

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Damon_Tor
Mar 15, 2010 3:43:39 Do hybrid monks get their unarmed strike, either inherently (unlikely) or with a hybrid talent?

Monk Unarmed Strike + Brawler Style + Ki Focus seems... quite potent, if possible.
#2
chumbaporkins
Mar 15, 2010 4:01:49
Do hybrid monks get their unarmed strike, either inherently (unlikely) or with a hybrid talent?

Monk Unarmed Strike + Brawler Style + Ki Focus seems... quite potent, if possible.

yes, but it can only be triggered on monk and monk pp powers, like all other hybrid strikers
#3
Duskweaver
Mar 15, 2010 5:54:38
yes, but it can only be triggered on monk and monk pp powers, like all other hybrid strikers

You're thinking of Flurry of Blows. Monk Unarmed Strike needs the Hybrid Talent feat, but isn't limited to monk powers.

Brawler Style also requires Hybrid Talent, so you're only going to be able to combine it with Monk Unarmed Strike by going paragon hybrid.
#4
Janx_14
Mar 15, 2010 10:08:24
Or you could stick with the spiked gauntlet, get the feat that makes it a d8, and then go shocktooper to make it a d10, and spend hybrid talent on something else.
#5
Sea-Envy
Mar 15, 2010 15:39:00 While you could use the monk unarmed as your primary weapon alot of brawler powers do set damage when you punch them with your off hand.
Except for fun & flavour reasons it would work just as well to take superiour weapon and use a d10 or d12 sharp/pointy thing as your main weapon.
AND since monk unarmed can't be enchanted and your fighter attacks can't use your ki focus you would lose enhancement bonuses to hit at high levels.
#6
Duskweaver
Mar 15, 2010 15:45:47
your fighter attacks can't use your ki focus

Wrong. If you can use a ki focus as an implement, then you can also use it with any weapon attack power you have.
#7
Damon_Tor
Mar 15, 2010 15:50:37

Or you could stick with the spiked gauntlet, get the feat that makes it a d8, and then go shocktooper to make it a d10, and spend hybrid talent on something else.

Well Brawler style combined with a Ki Focus from MC would seem sufficient for an unusually accurate character, especially since Brawler style's bonus is a proficiency bonus. It should thus stack with Ki Focus's enhancement bonus entirely.

This makes a brawler's accuraccy with unarmed attacks+ki focus on par with other weapons in heroic, +2 above normal weapons in paragon, and a huge +4 in epic. I wonder if this is intended: I don't know why this would be labeled as a proficiency bonus unless it were inteded to stack with an enhancement bonus.

Adding in a true monk unarmed strike would make the damage go from stinky to quite good. Not sure if it's worth giving up a paragon path though.

Hrm... Brawler McMonk plus spiked shield... viable Captain America at last?
#8
Sea-Envy
Mar 15, 2010 15:51:40 Well they could use it for all of their implement powers
Can't remember how many implement powers fighters have but they could use ki focus for all of them.
#9
Sea-Envy
Mar 15, 2010 16:04:21 Forgot that ki focus added to any weapon
Although is that a part of the implement by default or a part of monk

Remember, getting holy symbol bonuses while worn is a part of 3 divine classes not of the holy symbol implement. would hybrids gain that aspect of implement usage?
#10
Dragon9
Mar 15, 2010 16:48:14
Well Brawler style combined with a Ki Focus from MC would seem sufficient for an unusually accurate character, especially since Brawler style's bonus is a proficiency bonus. It should thus stack with Ki Focus's enhancement bonus entirely.

This makes a brawler's accuraccy with unarmed attacks+ki focus on par with other weapons in heroic, +2 above normal weapons in paragon, and a huge +4 in epic. I wonder if this is intended: I don't know why this would be labeled as a proficiency bonus unless it were inteded to stack with an enhancement bonus.

Normally an unarmed strike has no prof bonus. So if you're getting it from Brawler style or from the monk unarmed attack (which woudl be better IIRC since they won't stack) it wouldn't be OP. It's no different than using a magic weapon, really.
#11
Damon_Tor
Mar 15, 2010 17:10:37 Except that the proficiency bonus increases to 4 at 11th level and 6 at 21st level.

Heroic Attack Mods (Magic Longsword +2)
+5 Half your level
+5 Strength Mod
+3 Proficiency Bonus
+2 Enhancement Bonus
+1 Fighter Talent
Total: 16

Heroic Attack Mods (Unarmed with Magic Ki Focus +2)
+5 Half your level
+5 Strength Mod
+2 Proficiency Bonus
+2 Enhancement Bonus
Total: 14

Paragon Attack Mods (Magic Longsword +4)
+10 Half your level
+7 Strength Mod
+3 Proficiency Bonus
+4 Enhancement Bonus
+1 Fighter Talent
Total: 25

Paragon Attack Mods (Unarmed with Magic Ki Focus +4)
+10 Half your level
+7 Strength Mod
+4 Proficiency Bonus
+4 Enhancement Bonus
Total: 25

Paragon Attack Mods (Magic Longsword +6)
+15 Half your level
+9 Strength Mod
+3 Proficiency Bonus
+6 Enhancement Bonus
+1 Fighter Talent
Total: 34

Paragon Attack Mods (Unarmed with Magic Ki Focus+6)
+15 Half your level
+9 Strength Mod
+6 Proficiency Bonus
+6 Enhancement Bonus
Total: 36

Not as bad as I thought, admittantly: I hadn't considered the loss of the normal fighter talent. Still, coming in at two points above a +3 weapon seems quite strong.

I'm noticing a lack of Brawler-themed paragon paths, on a somewhat related note. Looks like maybe Paragon Hybrid might be worth it... invesitgation continues.
#12
Dragon9
Mar 15, 2010 17:30:09 But consider that you won't be doing as much damage with that unarmed strike as you would be with a weapon. Most of the Brawler powers only do 1[W] with the offhand strike (with a few exceptions of course), although they usually are adding conditions if not just grabbed.

Although, you could up the dmage by Hybrid Multiclassing and takign Brawler + Monk unarmed strike so you'd have the better prof from Brawler but the better damage from MUS, especially if you take the feat that bumps the damage to d10. It's like having an off-hand bastard sword! Although it's a steep price to pay for such specialization.
#13
Lord_Ventnor
Mar 15, 2010 17:48:51
But consider that you won't be doing as much damage with that unarmed strike as you would be with a weapon. Most of the Brawler powers only do 1[W] with the offhand strike (with a few exceptions of course), although they usually are adding conditions if not just grabbed.

Although, you could up the dmage by Hybrid Multiclassing and takign Brawler + Monk unarmed strike so you'd have the better prof from Brawler but the better damage from MUS, especially if you take the feat that bumps the damage to d10. It's like having an off-hand bastard sword! Although it's a steep price to pay for such specialization.

Think of it this way:

It's a bastard sword with a +6 proficiency bonus.

That right there seems fun to me.
#14
Duskweaver
Mar 16, 2010 5:16:50
Forgot that ki focus added to any weapon Although is that a part of the implement by default or a part of monk

It's in the ki focus rules on page 203 (although it's also stated in the monk class section). It's clear that it applies no matter your class, as long as you've somehow obtained the ability to use a ki focus as an implement.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Damon_Tor Mar 15, 2010 3:43:39	Do hybrid monks get their unarmed strike, either inherently (unlikely) or with a hybrid talent? Monk Unarmed Strike + Brawler Style + Ki Focus seems... quite potent, if possible.
#2 chumbaporkins Mar 15, 2010 4:01:49	Do hybrid monks get their unarmed strike, either inherently (unlikely) or with a hybrid talent? Monk Unarmed Strike + Brawler Style + Ki Focus seems... quite potent, if possible. yes, but it can only be triggered on monk and monk pp powers, like all other hybrid strikers
#3 Duskweaver Mar 15, 2010 5:54:38	yes, but it can only be triggered on monk and monk pp powers, like all other hybrid strikers You're thinking of Flurry of Blows. Monk Unarmed Strike needs the Hybrid Talent feat, but isn't limited to monk powers. Brawler Style also requires Hybrid Talent, so you're only going to be able to combine it with Monk Unarmed Strike by going paragon hybrid.
#4 Janx_14 Mar 15, 2010 10:08:24	Or you could stick with the spiked gauntlet, get the feat that makes it a d8, and then go shocktooper to make it a d10, and spend hybrid talent on something else.
#5 Sea-Envy Mar 15, 2010 15:39:00	While you could use the monk unarmed as your primary weapon alot of brawler powers do set damage when you punch them with your off hand. Except for fun & flavour reasons it would work just as well to take superiour weapon and use a d10 or d12 sharp/pointy thing as your main weapon. AND since monk unarmed can't be enchanted and your fighter attacks can't use your ki focus you would lose enhancement bonuses to hit at high levels.
#6 Duskweaver Mar 15, 2010 15:45:47	your fighter attacks can't use your ki focus Wrong. If you can use a ki focus as an implement, then you can also use it with any weapon attack power you have.
#7 Damon_Tor Mar 15, 2010 15:50:37	Or you could stick with the spiked gauntlet, get the feat that makes it a d8, and then go shocktooper to make it a d10, and spend hybrid talent on something else. Well Brawler style combined with a Ki Focus from MC would seem sufficient for an unusually accurate character, especially since Brawler style's bonus is a proficiency bonus. It should thus stack with Ki Focus's enhancement bonus entirely. This makes a brawler's accuraccy with unarmed attacks+ki focus on par with other weapons in heroic, +2 above normal weapons in paragon, and a huge +4 in epic. I wonder if this is intended: I don't know why this would be labeled as a proficiency bonus unless it were inteded to stack with an enhancement bonus. Adding in a true monk unarmed strike would make the damage go from stinky to quite good. Not sure if it's worth giving up a paragon path though. Hrm... Brawler McMonk plus spiked shield... viable Captain America at last?
#8 Sea-Envy Mar 15, 2010 15:51:40	Well they could use it for all of their implement powers Can't remember how many implement powers fighters have but they could use ki focus for all of them.
#9 Sea-Envy Mar 15, 2010 16:04:21	Forgot that ki focus added to any weapon Although is that a part of the implement by default or a part of monk Remember, getting holy symbol bonuses while worn is a part of 3 divine classes not of the holy symbol implement. would hybrids gain that aspect of implement usage?
#10 Dragon9 Mar 15, 2010 16:48:14	Well Brawler style combined with a Ki Focus from MC would seem sufficient for an unusually accurate character, especially since Brawler style's bonus is a proficiency bonus. It should thus stack with Ki Focus's enhancement bonus entirely. This makes a brawler's accuraccy with unarmed attacks+ki focus on par with other weapons in heroic, +2 above normal weapons in paragon, and a huge +4 in epic. I wonder if this is intended: I don't know why this would be labeled as a proficiency bonus unless it were inteded to stack with an enhancement bonus. Normally an unarmed strike has no prof bonus. So if you're getting it from Brawler style or from the monk unarmed attack (which woudl be better IIRC since they won't stack) it wouldn't be OP. It's no different than using a magic weapon, really.
#11 Damon_Tor Mar 15, 2010 17:10:37	Except that the proficiency bonus increases to 4 at 11th level and 6 at 21st level. Heroic Attack Mods (Magic Longsword +2) +5 Half your level +5 Strength Mod +3 Proficiency Bonus +2 Enhancement Bonus +1 Fighter Talent Total: 16 Heroic Attack Mods (Unarmed with Magic Ki Focus +2) +5 Half your level +5 Strength Mod +2 Proficiency Bonus +2 Enhancement Bonus Total: 14 Paragon Attack Mods (Magic Longsword +4) +10 Half your level +7 Strength Mod +3 Proficiency Bonus +4 Enhancement Bonus +1 Fighter Talent Total: 25 Paragon Attack Mods (Unarmed with Magic Ki Focus +4) +10 Half your level +7 Strength Mod +4 Proficiency Bonus +4 Enhancement Bonus Total: 25 Paragon Attack Mods (Magic Longsword +6) +15 Half your level +9 Strength Mod +3 Proficiency Bonus +6 Enhancement Bonus +1 Fighter Talent Total: 34 Paragon Attack Mods (Unarmed with Magic Ki Focus+6) +15 Half your level +9 Strength Mod +6 Proficiency Bonus +6 Enhancement Bonus Total: 36 Not as bad as I thought, admittantly: I hadn't considered the loss of the normal fighter talent. Still, coming in at two points above a +3 weapon seems quite strong. I'm noticing a lack of Brawler-themed paragon paths, on a somewhat related note. Looks like maybe Paragon Hybrid might be worth it... invesitgation continues.
#12 Dragon9 Mar 15, 2010 17:30:09	But consider that you won't be doing as much damage with that unarmed strike as you would be with a weapon. Most of the Brawler powers only do 1[W] with the offhand strike (with a few exceptions of course), although they usually are adding conditions if not just grabbed. Although, you could up the dmage by Hybrid Multiclassing and takign Brawler + Monk unarmed strike so you'd have the better prof from Brawler but the better damage from MUS, especially if you take the feat that bumps the damage to d10. It's like having an off-hand bastard sword! Although it's a steep price to pay for such specialization.
#13 Lord_Ventnor Mar 15, 2010 17:48:51	But consider that you won't be doing as much damage with that unarmed strike as you would be with a weapon. Most of the Brawler powers only do 1[W] with the offhand strike (with a few exceptions of course), although they usually are adding conditions if not just grabbed. Although, you could up the dmage by Hybrid Multiclassing and takign Brawler + Monk unarmed strike so you'd have the better prof from Brawler but the better damage from MUS, especially if you take the feat that bumps the damage to d10. It's like having an off-hand bastard sword! Although it's a steep price to pay for such specialization. Think of it this way: It's a bastard sword with a +6 proficiency bonus. That right there seems fun to me.
#14 Duskweaver Mar 16, 2010 5:16:50	Forgot that ki focus added to any weapon Although is that a part of the implement by default or a part of monk It's in the ki focus rules on page 203 (although it's also stated in the monk class section). It's clear that it applies no matter your class, as long as you've somehow obtained the ability to use a ki focus as an implement.