PHB3 question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 logan459 Apr 08, 2009 12:54:56	They've posted the playtest for Hybrid classes in Dragon magazine and I have a question about the following feat: New Feat: Hybrid Talent Prerequisite: Hybrid class character Benefit: Choose a class feature from one of your classes. You gain that class feature. You can neither select a class feature that you already have nor select a class feature for which you already have a hybrid version.
#2 Janx_14 Apr 08, 2009 12:57:53	All powers i would assume, as you get the full class feature, not some hybrid saying only fighter powers.
#3 Dragon9 Apr 08, 2009 13:04:55	That's probably a really good thing to write them as feedback on. The way hybrid class features work, I would suspect it would only apply to powers from that class. But then again, not every hybrid class feature functions in this manner.
#4 doctorhook Apr 08, 2009 15:36:05	Agreed, it's a good question. As Written, I believe it says you'd only get the bonus with Fighter powers, but on the other hand, that's fairly contrary to the nature of hybrid characters.
#5 Dragon9 Apr 08, 2009 16:15:32	i think what it comes down to is what we see is any hybrid feature that provides a + to damage (I dont' think there's any + to attacks) can only be used with that class' powers. It's a reasonable interpretation that any bonuses would go only to that class' powers. It needs work.
#6 Janx_14 Apr 08, 2009 16:27:40	But the Hybrid Talent feat doesnt say it gives you a hybrid version of the power, it simply gives you the class feature. There is no general rule saying "class features only apply to powers of that class for hybrid characters" it is a specific rule for certain hybrid powers. specific is overriding general on the (Hybrid) powers, and the general in this case, the original class features, such as tempest fighter, do not specify only fighter attacks.
#7 tiwaztyrsfist Apr 08, 2009 18:09:31	Think of it like this. If you had a Tempest Figther and took Sneak of Shadows, then the power swap feats, you would get the bonus with your Rogue powers. ERGO, if you are a fighter/rogue hybrid, and take Hybrid Talent to gain Tempest Fighter from MP, it should work with your rogue powers. The only reason it WOULDN'T work, was if it was a modified basic hybrid feature.
#8 Nautilus Apr 08, 2009 18:29:38	If the tempest feature was only meant to apply to fighter powers, that would be mentioned in the original text. or the errata. But it simply says "you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks when you are wielding two weapons." No filters on where the attacks are meant to come from. So I think it's safe to assume that a hybrid fighter-rogue would gain the bonus to all powers utilising two weapons.
#9 mach1_9pants Apr 08, 2009 19:17:05	Yep you get that class feature so that would be a nice little combo for all your powers etc.
#10 Dragon9 Apr 08, 2009 22:59:53	If the tempest feature was only meant to apply to fighter powers, that would be mentioned in the original text. or the errata. But it simply says "you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks when you are wielding two weapons." No filters on where the attacks are meant to come from. So I think it's safe to assume that a hybrid fighter-rogue would gain the bonus to all powers utilising two weapons. I'm not disagreeing. I said in what I posted - against it working for everything - that it's a reasonable interpretation. And while it is easy to infer that it works fully, and I believe personally that it works that way based on its wording and further review, the wording of the feat could use some work to avoid confusion. Simply changing it to: "Choose a class feature from one of your classes. You gain that class feature. This feature will work with powers from either of your hybrid classes." could clear up any confusion. The simple fact that someone asked about it means that it could be confusing. Is it entirely necessary? Maybe not. One can infer, using the structure of the rules, that a class feature you took with the feat applies to powers from either class. If one person has asked about it, then I would bet they're not the only one. This is why they have playtests.
#11 gbnogkfs Apr 09, 2009 1:42:35	I'm not disagreeing. I said in what I posted - against it working for everything - that it's a reasonable interpretation. And while it is easy to infer that it works fully, and I believe personally that it works that way based on its wording and further review, the wording of the feat could use some work to avoid confusion. Simply changing it to: "Choose a class feature from one of your classes. You gain that class feature. This feature will work with powers from either of your hybrid classes." could clear up any confusion. The simple fact that someone asked about it means that it could be confusing. Is it entirely necessary? Maybe not. One can infer, using the structure of the rules, that a class feature you took with the feat applies to powers from either class. If one person has asked about it, then I would bet they're not the only one. This is why they have playtests. that way it will only work for the two hybrid classes' powers. as written, it applies to every power, no matter from which class, PP, ED, feat or whatever.
#12 Dragon9 Apr 09, 2009 7:52:28	Yeah, I realized that afterwards. Still, it's a good topic to write feedback on.
#13 logan459 Apr 09, 2009 10:36:49	Thanks for all the feedback, guys. As for sending the question to the dev's, I actually did that before I posted here, so that's already taken care of. I just knew I'd get faster response here, even if it is just interpretation of the text. The way I see it now, (after reading your responces,) is that, as written, taking the feat allows you the full benefit of class feature because it does not specify Hybrid Version. Honestly, it would be tough to do a generic feat for Hybrid Versions of every class feature. The closest you could get would be, (like someone already posted,) wording it like "This feature only applies to powers of the original class." To me, though, that limits hybrid classes too much. After all, not all hybrid classes have hybrid versions of their class feature. Most should apply to powers from both hybrid classes.
#14 TheLoneCleric Apr 11, 2009 10:24:19	And we haven't even gotten on the 'what's my implement' side of the issue.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

logan459

Apr 08, 2009 12:54:56

They've posted the playtest for Hybrid classes in Dragon magazine and I have a question about the following feat:

New Feat: Hybrid Talent
Prerequisite: Hybrid class character
Benefit: Choose a class feature from one of your classes. You gain that class feature. You can neither select a class feature that you already have nor select a class feature for which you already have a hybrid version.

Janx_14

Apr 08, 2009 12:57:53

All powers i would assume, as you get the full class feature, not some hybrid saying only fighter powers.

Dragon9

Apr 08, 2009 13:04:55

That's probably a really good thing to write them as feedback on. The way hybrid class features work, I would suspect it would only apply to powers from that class. But then again, not every hybrid class feature functions in this manner.

doctorhook

Apr 08, 2009 15:36:05

Agreed, it's a good question. As Written, I believe it says you'd only get the bonus with Fighter powers, but on the other hand, that's fairly contrary to the nature of hybrid characters.

Dragon9

Apr 08, 2009 16:15:32

i think what it comes down to is what we see is any hybrid feature that provides a + to damage (I dont' think there's any + to attacks) can only be used with that class' powers. It's a reasonable interpretation that any bonuses would go only to that class' powers. It needs work.

Janx_14

Apr 08, 2009 16:27:40

But the Hybrid Talent feat doesnt say it gives you a hybrid version of the power, it simply gives you the class feature. There is no general rule saying "class features only apply to powers of that class for hybrid characters" it is a specific rule for certain hybrid powers.

specific is overriding general on the (Hybrid) powers, and the general in this case, the original class features, such as tempest fighter, do not specify only fighter attacks.

tiwaztyrsfist

Apr 08, 2009 18:09:31

Think of it like this.

If you had a Tempest Figther and took Sneak of Shadows, then the power swap feats, you would get the bonus with your Rogue powers.

ERGO, if you are a fighter/rogue hybrid, and take Hybrid Talent to gain Tempest Fighter from MP, it should work with your rogue powers.

The only reason it WOULDN'T work, was if it was a modified basic hybrid feature.

Nautilus

Apr 08, 2009 18:29:38

If the tempest feature was only meant to apply to fighter powers, that would be mentioned in the original text. or the errata.

But it simply says "you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks when you are wielding two weapons." No filters on where the attacks are meant to come from. So I think it's safe to assume that a hybrid fighter-rogue would gain the bonus to all powers utilising two weapons.

mach1_9pants

Apr 08, 2009 19:17:05

Yep you get that class feature so that would be a nice little combo for all your powers etc.

#10

Dragon9

Apr 08, 2009 22:59:53

If the tempest feature was only meant to apply to fighter powers, that would be mentioned in the original text. or the errata.

But it simply says "you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks when you are wielding two weapons." No filters on where the attacks are meant to come from. So I think it's safe to assume that a hybrid fighter-rogue would gain the bonus to all powers utilising two weapons.

I'm not disagreeing. I said in what I posted - against it working for everything - that it's a reasonable interpretation. And while it is easy to infer that it works fully, and I believe personally that it works that way based on its wording and further review, the wording of the feat could use some work to avoid confusion. Simply changing it to: "Choose a class feature from one of your classes. You gain that class feature. This feature will work with powers from either of your hybrid classes." could clear up any confusion. The simple fact that someone asked about it means that it could be confusing. Is it entirely necessary? Maybe not. One can infer, using the structure of the rules, that a class feature you took with the feat applies to powers from either class. If one person has asked about it, then I would bet they're not the only one.

This is why they have playtests.

#11

gbnogkfs

Apr 09, 2009 1:42:35

I'm not disagreeing. I said in what I posted - against it working for everything - that it's a reasonable interpretation. And while it is easy to infer that it works fully, and I believe personally that it works that way based on its wording and further review, the wording of the feat could use some work to avoid confusion. Simply changing it to: "Choose a class feature from one of your classes. You gain that class feature. This feature will work with powers from either of your hybrid classes." could clear up any confusion. The simple fact that someone asked about it means that it could be confusing. Is it entirely necessary? Maybe not. One can infer, using the structure of the rules, that a class feature you took with the feat applies to powers from either class. If one person has asked about it, then I would bet they're not the only one.

This is why they have playtests.

that way it will only work for the two hybrid classes' powers.
as written, it applies to every power, no matter from which class, PP, ED, feat or whatever.

#12

Dragon9

Apr 09, 2009 7:52:28

Yeah, I realized that afterwards. Still, it's a good topic to write feedback on.

#13

logan459

Apr 09, 2009 10:36:49

Thanks for all the feedback, guys. As for sending the question to the dev's, I actually did that before I posted here, so that's already taken care of. I just knew I'd get faster response here, even if it is just interpretation of the text.

The way I see it now, (after reading your responces,) is that, as written, taking the feat allows you the full benefit of class feature because it does not specify Hybrid Version. Honestly, it would be tough to do a generic feat for Hybrid Versions of every class feature. The closest you could get would be, (like someone already posted,) wording it like "This feature only applies to powers of the original class."

To me, though, that limits hybrid classes too much. After all, not all hybrid classes have hybrid versions of their class feature. Most should apply to powers from both hybrid classes.

#14

TheLoneCleric

Apr 11, 2009 10:24:19

And we haven't even gotten on the 'what's my implement' side of the issue.