No idea on races.
Any ideas here?
I'm thinking Martial, Psionic/Arcane, and Ki Heroes?
No idea on races.
Any ideas here?
Psionics is clearly likely to be there. Since there was mention of Ki users, that will likely be in there as well.
I'm fairly sure just about every fantasy class can be shoehorned into the power sources above and the ones from the PHB I & II.
I am putting my money on Ki (obvious reason since of the Monk), Psionics (most wanted Power Source) and Shadow (we have already gotten some hints of Shadow).
As for races. I suspect/hope we will have Elan. Any other number of races could/couldn't fit so the Elan is the one I really want.
Races:
Githyanki and Githzerai (to go with psionics and monks)
Kalashtar (if they aren't in the EPG, but I think they will be)
Goblins (including a Blue racial feat, perhaps)
One other psionic race, probably Maenads or Dromites.
I highly doubt they will be doing anymore of the Powers already around when they have gotten so much support/classes as is.
I am putting my money on Ki (obvious reason since of the Monk), Psionics (most wanted Power Source) and Shadow (we have already gotten some hints of Shadow).
As for races. I suspect/hope we will have Elan. Any other number of races could/couldn't fit so the Elan is the one I really want.
What is the shadow power source? The name evokes images of stealth or necrotic power.
Or make Psionics arcane. That would suck.
What is the shadow power source? The name evokes images of stealth or necrotic power.
You pegged it pretty solidly, I believe. S'why I like the idea of the ninja as a Shadow Striker rather than Ki, for the whole invisibility/teleporting/insubstantial walk through walls kinda stuff.
Bel
I'm thinking Martial, Psionic/Arcane, and Ki Heroes?
No idea on races.
Any ideas here?
Martial is "complete." No more martial classes. Ever. Arcane should be done, but pretty much whenever a class doesn't quite fit another power source or they don't want to release the new source early, they toss it in Arcane *coughsorcerercough*. Arcane is up to, what now, 6 classes? Nothing else has more than four.
From here on out, safe money is on two sources per PHB, with four classes from each. Next up is likely Psionic and Ki. In fact, we know Ki is coming because the monk playtest is coming out.
Personally, I'd like them to delay the familiar stuff. I don't care about Ki or Psionic, I want to see what else they have up their sleeves. Aka: I want to know what Elemental will be like!
Oh sweet jesus, they'd better not stick the monk with Martial or Divine.
Or make Psionics arcane. That would suck.
We already know the Monk is Ki.
We also already know Psionics is its own Power Source and nicely this time it is as core in the game as Arcane, Divine, etc. So not left to the side.
Personally, I'd like them to delay the familiar stuff. I don't care about Ki or Psionic, I want to see what else they have up their sleeves. Aka: I want to know what Elemental will be like!
I'm of the exact opposite feeling. I don't think there is anything they could do with the Elemental power source to get me to want to see that in the PH3 over Psionics. Yeah, I know its all going to be based on the same mechanics now, unlike 3.0/3.5, but its something I enjoy having in my D&D games so I want to see the 4th edition version asap.
You pegged it pretty solidly, I believe. S'why I like the idea of the ninja as a Shadow Striker rather than Ki, for the whole invisibility/teleporting/insubstantial walk through walls kinda stuff.
Perhaps i'm misunderstanding a bit, but i fail to see how stealth lies any more in the purview of shadow than it does that of martial. For that matter, i fail to see how a ninja is really any different than a trickster rogue.
Perhaps i'm misunderstanding a bit, but i fail to see how stealth lies any more in the purview of shadow than it does that of martial. For that matter, i fail to see how a ninja is really any different than a trickster rogue.
Shadow includes illusion, from what I've read. The illusionist will likely use the shadow source.
'Real' ninjas, yes. Fantasy ninjas, however, do things mystically. There's one rogue teleport power, and it's very conditional (you can only 'hitch a ride' when someone else teleports). Ninjas just *poof* and go places, and walk through walls. It's a fantasy game, so it should have fantasy ninjas.
Martial is "complete." No more martial classes. Ever.
Is Martial complete? Or do you merely feel that it's complete, bearing in mind a book called Martial Power 2 is scheduled for sometime beyond 2009? Do you have a source, or are you just stating your opinion as fact?
I'm comfortable with where Martial is now, but I'm certainly not about to turn down new options. I'm still waiting for my ranged Warlord!
Arcane should be done, but pretty much whenever a class doesn't quite fit another power source or they don't want to release the new source early, they toss it in Arcane *coughsorcerercough*. Arcane is up to, what now, 6 classes? Nothing else has more than four.
...I want to know what Elemental will be like!
Are you suggesting that the Sorcerer should have been Elemental, even as you state that you don't know what the Elemental power source is actually about? What makes the Sorcerer any more Elemental than a Wizard or Swordmage? What makes the Sorcerer any less Arcane than a Warlock or Artificer? (I've also heard folks say the Sorcerer should have been Primal, but IMHO that doesn't fly either.)
Finally, why do you feel each power source should be limited to four classes? Consider that Arcane ("normal magic") is perhaps the most widespread and deep-seated concept in the D&D mythos.
Is Martial complete? Or do you merely feel that it's complete, bearing in mind a book called Martial Power 2 is scheduled for sometime beyond 2009? Do you have a source, or are you just stating your opinion as fact?
He said 'no more martial classes.' Since classes only appear in PHBs (sayeth the devs, who can, admittedly, change their minds as they wish), MP2 will just be build options, feats (likely racial feat for the PH2 races), PPs and EDs. More martial options, but not martial classes.
Shadow includes illusion, from what I've read. The illusionist will likely use the shadow source.
'Real' ninjas, yes. Fantasy ninjas, however, do things mystically. There's one rogue teleport power, and it's very conditional (you can only 'hitch a ride' when someone else teleports). Ninjas just *poof* and go places, and walk through walls. It's a fantasy game, so it should have fantasy ninjas.
That is fair enough. Teleportation should definitely be beyond the nature of martial characters (unless it's racial or grantd from an item or something). I would argue that stelath and teleportation do fit neatly into the Ki power source though. And since i'm still unclear on exactly what Ki power will entail, some illusion may fall into that category as well.
Is Martial complete? Or do you merely feel that it's complete, bearing in mind a book called Martial Power 2 is scheduled for sometime beyond 2009? Do you have a source, or are you just stating your opinion as fact?
I don't know, I don't save links to every developer interview I've ever read. I'm sure I'm not the only person to remember this, but as far as I am aware, they are done with martial classes and have said as much.
They won't, of course, discount the possibility that someone might come up with something, but seriously, there is nothing iconic that can't be done with a new build for a pre-existing class.
I'm comfortable with where Martial is now, but I'm certainly not about to turn down new options. I'm still waiting for my ranged Warlord!
Which is not a new class, just a new build/option for a pre-existing class.
Are you suggesting that the Sorcerer should have been Elemental, even as you state that you don't know what the Elemental power source is actually about?
I am suggesting that WotC initially said the Sorcerer was not going to be Arcane, only to change that statement later. I don't know why, I don't know what it was supposed to be, and it doesn't really matter to me.
What makes the Sorcerer any more Elemental than a Wizard or Swordmage?
Chaos maybe? I really have no clue, nor does it matter.
What makes the Sorcerer any less Arcane than a Warlock or Artificer? (I've also heard folks say the Sorcerer should have been Primal, but IMHO that doesn't fly either.)
I'm not really sure what makes anything Arcane. I think Arcane has the weakest defining concept, and so far, its just a random collection of magic classes that don't fit elsewhere. Swordmage and Wizard have a good link, but Bard, Warlock, and Sorcerer are so different now. Before, they all basically used the same spells. I mean, seriously, the only thing linking Wizards and Sorcerers in 3rd was a shared spell list. Now, it seems the only thing keeping them all Arcane is nostalgia.
Finally, why do you feel each power source should be limited to four classes? Consider that Arcane ("normal magic") is perhaps the most widespread and deep-seated concept in the D&D mythos.
I don't mind more than four classes per source. I just think it should stay closer to even. Right now Arcane has 50% more classes than any other source. Arcane comprises 1/3 of the total classes released to date. Maybe wait on giving them a 7th until something else has 5. Bard and Artificer, at least, should probably have been something else. What? I don't know, but arcane is not really a perfect fit, only the best fit available.
Anyway, I really have very little interest in Psionics or Ki. I'm only minorly intrigued by the new mechanic tricks. Otherwise, we pretty much know what to expect. If Shadow isn't a codeword for the Emo power source, I will eat my hat. So that leaves Elemental. Its a wild card. Could be awesome. Could be left out entirely. Its interesting. Personally, though, I would be perfectly happy running D&D with only three power sources: Divine, Martial, and Primal (ha, bet you thought I was going to say Arcane!).
I would be surprised if there is more than one new power source in the PHB3. Outside of the necessity to do so in the 1st PHB, PHB2 introduces 1 new power source and some add ons for the other sources. I expect to see 1 new power source (KI) in the PHB3 and then some more addons for Primal mainly and perhaps a little for the other sources.
This is troublesome. If this is true, first, they are not going to have every source released for four more years, rather than two. That's not good business sense. They'll want them all out so they can bring option books and things like that in the future.
Second, if each PHB does have 8 classes in it, then old sources will have to get new classes, which is kind of a no-no once the X Power book has been released. They already have Martial Power 2 set for release. If they create a new Martial class, it will have 1/3 the support of the other four. Even if they continue to release more Martial Power books, either the new class will be perpetually 2 books behind, or the old classes will get less and less support in each consecutive book. That's also bad for business.
I would be surprised if there is more than one new power source in the PHB3. Outside of the necessity to do so in the 1st PHB, PHB2 introduces 1 new power source and some add ons for the other sources. I expect to see 1 new power source (KI) in the PHB3 and then some more addons for Primal mainly and perhaps a little for the other sources.
The reason PH 2 only had one new source is they had to finish up the two they left dangling after PH 1. Now that the first four sources are as "complete" as they need to be (translation: enough classes for a X Power splatbook), there is no need to revisit them in future PHs.
I don't know, I don't save links to every developer interview I've ever read. I'm sure I'm not the only person to remember this, but as far as I am aware, they are done with martial classes and have said as much.
They won't, of course, discount the possibility that someone might come up with something, but seriously, there is nothing iconic that can't be done with a new build for a pre-existing class.
...
Which is not a new class, just a new build/option for a pre-existing class.
I see what you're saying here. I was responding to you saying, "Martial is complete," rather than where you said, "Martial won't get any new classes," although what I didn't really consider is that you meant the same thing with each statement. I personally still think you're jumping the gun a bit, but your argument is fair.
I am suggesting that WotC initially said the Sorcerer was not going to be Arcane, only to change that statement later. I don't know why, I don't know what it was supposed to be, and it doesn't really matter to me.
This is a bold statement, that doesn't match with how I remember things, nor with any of the early information about the Sorcerer that I can find right now; as far back as I remember, the Sorcerer was confirmed as Arcane. It may not matter to you whether or not the information you're spreading is accurate, but if you're going to state your opinion as fact, you should really either be able to back it up with proof.
Chaos maybe? I really have no clue, nor does it matter.
I'm not really sure what makes anything Arcane. I think Arcane has the weakest defining concept, and so far, its just a random collection of magic classes that don't fit elsewhere. Swordmage and Wizard have a good link, but Bard, Warlock, and Sorcerer are so different now. Before, they all basically used the same spells. I mean, seriously, the only thing linking Wizards and Sorcerers in 3rd was a shared spell list. Now, it seems the only thing keeping them all Arcane is nostalgia.
You may not like Arcane, but if you're going to say that half of its classes should be Arcane, you should probably offer some alternatives. The main thematic difference between the Arcane classes seems to be how they access their spells; since the Invoker accesses his prayers differently than all the other Divine classes do, would you say that the Invoker shouldn't be Divine?
Also, FWIW: I'm trying to ask you about your opinion, mpl, but I find it unsportsmanlike that you'd brush off half of my questions as irrelevant, when obviously I don't think they are. It takes two to have a civilized conversation, bro.
I am suggesting that WotC initially said the Sorcerer was not going to be Arcane, only to change that statement later. I don't know why, I don't know what it was supposed to be, and it doesn't really matter to me.
Huh? Outside of Races and Classes, which didn't really say anything on the subject of power source for the Sorcerer, the first mention of the Sorcerer we got was that it was difficult to decide its niche as it shared the power source and role of the Wizard. That pretty much screamed ARCANE CONTROLLER, and for the longest time, that's what we knew of it. Now we can see that this didn't live through the development phase, but it was never mentioned to be anything other than Arcane.
As for races, I have no clue. I like the two Giths getting written up. More obvious choices (Minotaur, Shadar-kai) have been covered in Dragon, so probably won't appear in PH3.
The bits about no Psionics in PH3 and Ravenloft as next year's setting could, however, be perfectly well bunk, since Dark Sun got a much more explicit outing even earlier than this "true assassins" business in the Hazards of Athas article.
i'd rather much have kobolds in a phb than dragon magazine O_o
I was REALLY disappointed they didn't make this cut for phb2 ~_~ they have a bigger fanbase than you realize. I thought they would be perfect with the whole primal power source.
I base this on a few feelings.
1) After Eberron I believe Dark Sun then Oriental Adventures will be the next campaign settings
2) You need psionics for Dark Sun
3) Dark Sun would make an excellent contrast against Eberron
4) Psionics and ki fit together for an eastern feel
5) OA would be ready at that point with martial, arcane, divine, psionic, and ki
6) I feel Dark Sun and OA have more fan requests than Ravenloft
I think we'll see Shadow and Ravenloft both... but until a fifth round. I'm kind of interested to see where we go after that. Will it be something new or will it be more 'nostalgia' settings: Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Red Steel, Birthright, Al-Qaddim, Spelljammer? Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Dark Sun and Ravenloft both.
This is a bold statement, that doesn't match with how I remember things, nor with any of the early information about the Sorcerer that I can find right now; as far back as I remember, the Sorcerer was confirmed as Arcane. It may not matter to you whether or not the information you're spreading is accurate, but if you're going to state your opinion as fact, you should really either be able to back it up with proof.
Stating your opinion as fact is a staple of the written word. Anyway, I clearly may be mistaken, as can anyone. It is my recollection, though, that there was quite a bit of talk about Sorcerer being something else. I do remember the Arcane Controller talk as well.
I still don't think Arcane quite fits, it just fits better than the other current options.
You may not like Arcane, but if you're going to say that half of its classes should be Arcane, you should probably offer some alternatives. The main thematic difference between the Arcane classes seems to be how they access their spells; since the Invoker accesses his prayers differently than all the other Divine classes do, would you say that the Invoker shouldn't be Divine?
No, Divine power comes from gods, Primal power comes from spirits, Ki power comes from the "soul," Psionic comes from the mind, Shadow power comes from the plane of shadows, and Elemental power comes from the Elemental Chaos/Primordials. Arcane power comes from...? Its "the other stuff" source.
As for alternatives, I don't know. Sorcerer could easily be Primal or Elemental (well maybe Elemental, we don't really know what its like, but the chaos fits speculation). I think Bard should definitely have been Primal. However, they clearly didn't like the link to spirits, so that left Arcane as the only viable choice. Its a catchall. Eh.
Also, just curious, how is Warlord Arcane? I think it should've been martial or divine.
The "don't rule out martial" thing has one major issue: what would the new class(es) be?
Also, just curious, how is Warlord Arcane? I think it should've been martial or divine.
The Warlord is Martial.
As for other Martial classes. Well it all depends on how specific one wishes it to be. For instance while a Swashbuckler could be catered with a Fighter, Rogue or Ranger fairly well there could still be a class of it per chance. I think in general it will depend on how much WoTC wishes to branch out with the current classes rather then building new ones.
The "don't rule out martial" thing has one major issue: what would the new class(es) be?
Martial. Controller.
Guess what's the only power source without a controller? Yeah, you got it. I hope that a martial controller would show out, at least in a campaign setting: at present, two setting-specific classes out of two are arcane.
Martial. Controller.
Guess what's the only power source without a controller? Yeah, you got it. I hope that a martial controller would show out, at least in a campaign setting: at present, two setting-specific classes out of two are arcane.
They won't make a martial controller just to fill the grid. If they can come up with a concept for one that doesn't step on current classes, they probably will.
Unfortunately, if the player-made ones I see floating around the forums are any indication of what a martial controller would be, it should never happen. Every one I see is either a cheap ripoff of the Archer Ranger or Warlord concepts, or a class that so imbalanced that they'd ruin the game by putting it in (like giving a Warlord-ripoff a bunch of minions/slaves).
What is the shadow power source? The name evokes images of stealth or necrotic power.
Exactly.
Necromancer, Ninja, Illusionist and Hexblade.
Thats the source that sees 4 new classes. Ki gets 2(I think leader and controller being the ones that lose out), then Psi gets 2(Striker or Leader and COntroller)
I do hope we get some Kobolds...probably with the Elemental Power source.
Goblins would be fun.
The "don't rule out martial" thing has one major issue: what would the new class(es) be?
Also, just curious, how is Warlord Arcane? I think it should've been martial or divine.
... how did you not know the Warlord is Martial?
Once they do the Psionics Powers, Adventurer's Vault 3 & Draconomicon 3, we'll see the X Powers 2 that have been mentioned.
... how did you not know the Warlord is Martial?
Oops.
I could've sworn the Warlord was Arcane, hence my confusion.
I think it would be pretty easy to port over their sigils as well. They'd be a bit like the genasi...each sigil would offer a different bonus and different encounter power. You could take feats to "display" more than one sigil at a time.
Anyway, they clearly mined Races of Stone for the Goliath so I wouldn't be surprised to see Illumians make a come back as well.
The reason PH 2 only had one new source is they had to finish up the two they left dangling after PH 1. Now that the first four sources are as "complete" as they need to be (translation: enough classes for a X Power splatbook), there is no need to revisit them in future PHs.
There are only so many more power sources left that they can produce that are rational (Ki, psionic, elemental, shadow). With the game looking at an approx 8 yr life span, and them wanting to produce a PHB each year they would run out of power sources before they could run out of PHB's to print. Spreading it out to 1 new power source per PHB will drag this out to almost the approx lifespan of this edition. Just one of each of those above from 2010 thru 2013 brings us to 6 years into the editions life span and gives us 8 power sources.
Still all just conjecture on my part.
If we get shadow I think Shadar-Kai get in, if we have Ki we'll probably have Giths (along with the Psionic power source).
I do hope we get some Kobolds...probably with the Elemental Power source.
Goblins would be fun.
Shadar-kai are already in. They are in the latest Dragon Magazine.
There are only so many more power sources left that they can produce that are rational (Ki, psionic, elemental, shadow). With the game looking at an approx 8 yr life span, and them wanting to produce a PHB each year they would run out of power sources before they could run out of PHB's to print. Spreading it out to 1 new power source per PHB will drag this out to almost the approx lifespan of this edition. Just one of each of those above from 2010 thru 2013 brings us to 6 years into the editions life span and gives us 8 power sources.
Assuming we will get 8 PHs, 8 new classes in each PH, and no new power sources beyond the 8 that have been named, WotC will at some point have to start producing "filler" classes from power sources that were previously thought "complete". Whether this starts happening in PH 3 alongside a new source, or it gets concentrated to PH 5 through 8, doesn't really make much difference.
If you're like me, and don't like the idea of class bloat at all, you have to start wondering whether one or more of the three assumptions I started with might be false.
As far as races I see:
Goblins Goblins are sneaky and underhanded, and are in their tactics and outlook perfectly suited to be assassins. The fact that they also have a subrace (that could be handled as a feat like the FR elf subrace feats) that's naturally psionic is just gravy. Also allows fans of Droaam from Eberron to have official Goblin stats.
Githzeri: They are a race with natural psionic abilities that have a long tradition of being monks-and thus would prove a perfect fit for the PHB 3. They have a loyal fanbase and are a race that often travels the planes, allowing them to have a reason to adventure in the world as well as opening up the possibility of a campaign that takes place on another plane
Githyanki:While including these two in the same PHB may seem like forced symmetry, it's actually rather fitting. The Githyanki are led by a Lich Queen and often practice black magic that fits in with the Necromancer and the Hexblade classes. Furthermore, fleshing these two races out allows for those who want to revisit Planescape to do so more easily, now that two iconic plane-hopping races have been included.
Illumians:This race, introduced in a 3.5 source book was one created from humans who learned words in an ancient language that infused them, imbuing them with power. They formed research groups and cliquish Illuminatiesque secret societies in an effort to learn more and more of the language that had birthed them. The search for inner knowledge and truth, represented by the search for more words in the ancient language that birthed them is something that is linked to the Ki power source, in that both require great self-knowledge. The "shadowy" nature of the Illumians also fits the tone of the entire book well-all three power sources that I listed are typically portrayed as very subtle.
As for classes, here's what I'm thinking:
Shadow
Hexblade (Shadow Defender)
Illusionist (Shadow Controller)
Necromancer (Shadow Controller)
Assassin (Shadow Striker)
Ki
Monk (Ki Striker)
Incarnate (Ki Leader)
Psionic
Empath (Psionic Leader)
Kinetiscist (Psionic Controller)
Wilder (Psionic Striker)
Psychic Warrior (Psionic Defender)
I think we could see PH3 with only two new power sources, either full-fleshed out, or alongside new classes for an existing power source. But it might be more likely that this will only occur in later PHs.
Personally, I am hoping for Ki / Shadow / Psionics, but it would be interesting if they surprised us with Elemental. As for races, I think Elan, Goblins (Blue), Rakshasa, Githyanki, and Githzerai.
Ki could get Monk (Striker), Samurai (Defender), Shugenja (Leader), and Wu Jen (Controller).
Psionic could have Soulknife (Striker), Psychic Warrior (Defender), Psion (Leader), Wilder (Controller).
I think that PHB4 should be Elemental/Shadow, to finish off the set of power sources, and that PHB5+ should either include unrevealed power sources (Mechanical?), or bring the current power sources up from 4 to 8 each. Or, since by the time of PHB5 coming out we should have seen four settings, it could contain the four setting specific classes, and then four more classes that are setting themed but generically useful.
As far as Elemental/Shadow... Well, Elemental could have one class of each role, and one class of each Fire/Water/Wind/Earth. This could be... Fire Striker, Water Controller, Wind Leader, and Earth Defender. As for the names, I have no idea.
Shadow could have Hexblade (Defender), Illusionist (Leader), Necromancer (Controller), and Ninja (Striker), or it could be more focused. Though, given the diversity of power 'source' in the Arcane selection, a diverse group like I've listed here is reasonable.
PHB III -- Psionic, Ki, & Shadow Heroes
(Coupled with my suspected and hoped for 2011 setting, Dark Sun)
Classes
Psionic Controller - Psion
Psionic Defender - Psychic warrior
Psionic Striker - Wilder
Psionic Stiker - Mind Blade
Ki Striker - Monk
Ki Defender - Sword Saint/Samurai/Something
Shadow Leader - Necromancer
Shadow Controller - Illusionist
Races
Gith (githyanki and githzerai)
Tri-Kreen
Illumians
Shadar-Kai
Hobgoblins
Bugbears
Psionic, Shadow, and Ki Heroes
Psionic Leader- Empath
Psionic Striker- Clairvoyant
Psionic Controller- Kineticist
Psionic Defender- "Mind Controller"(hypnotist? :p)
Shadow Controller- "Shadowcaster"(only with a better name)
Shadow Striker- "True Assassin"/Ninja
Ki Striker- Monk
Ki Controller(or Defender)- Soulknife
I don't believe that most of the psionic class names that I used are likely(except for empath which is basically confirmed), but the ideas could work even if the names don't.
1) Four Martial (one for each role, save controller which might have been hard, so a second Striker was used), Two Divine (Leader and Defender) and Two Arcane (Striker and Controller)
2) Four Primal (one for each role), Two Divine (Striker and Controller to fill in a Divine group's blank spots) and two Arcane (leader and a striker. It doesn't fill in the black except if you use the Swordmage Arcane Defender from FRPG)
So each book seems to have eight spots for classes. Which is the reason for the 4/4 and 4/2/2 idea.
For PH3 and PH4:
We know that the Monk is being developed for it and is a Ki Striker at the moment. So Ki is a power source for PH3. Sources left from the PH are Psionic, Ki, Shadow and Element. With Necromancer and Illusionist being suggested for Shadow.
Guesses:
Either Psionics or Ki will likely be the 'major' power of the third PH, with the second in secondary role. If 4/4, I would say it would be Ki/Psionics due to the work being done on the monk and the traditions with D&D mental powers.
If 4/2/2, it would still be Ki or Psionics in the four spot with the other being in the first two spot. I would also believe that Shadow would be the second two for the use of Illusionist and Necromancer. Given the traditions of the later two in D&D.
The former being a Striker with Controller aspect or vice versa. Illusions allowing them to move the foe or themselves into position and phantom blows causing damage (think you have been stab mental shock to death kind of thing, perhaps with Psychic type damage). Imagine an illusionist being invisible, luring a foe with a realistic illusion. Then striking behind them with a phantom blade which causes the foes body to react like it was being stabbed in the heart and have the heart shut down.
The latter would work with a Leader as it can drain the hp of targets (necromantic energy) to heal the hp of allies. It could also be used to suck energy from foes to boost the power/energy of allies.
Elementals might take some time to work on the difference from the common elemental type damage of other classes and would wait till PH 4. So PH4 would be Four elemental/Two Ki or Psionic/Two shadow.
Thoughts?
how 4e classes are sorted
4e classes come in two kinds of products: Player's Handbooks and Player's Guides (the player books for campaign settings). In the Player's handbooks, they are sorted primarily by power source (note the subtitles for the Player's Handbook and Player's Handbook II), and this is how they are sorted for class splat books as well (at least for now, I could see 'defender's Handbooks' and the like as a later product, but we haven't heard of anything like that yet). The pattern so far is 4 classes of each power source published in Players handbooks. These four do not necessarily divide evenly into the combat roles, however (note martial with two strikers and no controller, or arcane with two strikers and no defender, at least not in the PHB series).
Campaign player's guides don't seem to follow any restriction here, though I doubt we'll see any classes published in a player's guide for a power source that hasn't previously been published in a player's handbook.
Note that none of these are hard and fast rules, they're just trends that have been noticed from products so far. These trends seem pretty solid, but there's nothing to say they won't change.
Campaign player's guides don't seem to follow any restriction here, though I doubt we'll see any classes published in a player's guide for a power source that hasn't previously been published in a player's handbook.
Note that none of these are hard and fast rules, they're just trends that have been noticed from products so far. These trends seem pretty solid, but there's nothing to say they won't change.
I guess it doesn't really do any harm, so I'm not really complaining, but it sure seems unnecessary.
Elemental is a thing? Really? I mean, there aren't there already a bunch of arcane classes that pretty much use all the elements? What's the point of making a different power source when you've already got one that could logically do anything you wanted to do with the new one?
I guess it doesn't really do any harm, so I'm not really complaining, but it sure seems unnecessary.
Why does everyone jump to the conclusion that the Elemental power source has something to do with earth, fire, wind, and water, rather than the Elemental Chaos?
Why does everyone jump to the conclusion that the Elemental power source has something to do with earth, fire, wind, and water, rather than the Elemental Chaos?
Well the Elemental Chaos has a lot of Earth, Fire, Wind and Water in it...
Shadow Controller: Illusionist
Shadow Defender: Blackguard
Shadow Leader: Necromancer
Shadow Striker: Ninja
Ki Striker: Monk
Ki Defender: Samurai
Psionic Leader: ???
Psionic Controller: ???
Why does everyone jump to the conclusion that the Elemental power source has something to do with earth, fire, wind, and water, rather than the Elemental Chaos?
I agree with you that folks probably shouldn't jump to the conclusion that the Elemental power source will be all about "earth, fire, wind, and water", but I'm not sure that anyone should jump to the conclusion that it will necessarily be about some relationship to the Elemental Chaos either. The fact is, we know next to nothing about what the Elemental power source will "be", and there's possibly as many as a half-dozen different concepts of which any or all could become a significant part of the theme of the power source. Beyond this, so far any links between power sources and the planes are extremely tenuous, and have a lot more to do with indirect ("shared association") concepts that with any kinds of direct connections.
What I'm trying to say is that I agree with you, but let's not jump from the frying pan into the fire.
If psionics is going to be one of the power sources, then perhaps the Duergar will get a place with the races.
we went to 4ed to get away from subrace of the month . if they do include more than one dwarf race they should be unique such as Azer's, or Maeluth.
but to the point since rumor speculates a darksun revival maby thi-kreens and dromites.
but to the point since rumor speculates a darksun revival maby thi-kreens and dromites.
If DarkSun, I say: Gith and Elan in PH3, with Mul and Thri-keen in the DSPG.
Why does everyone jump to the conclusion that the Elemental power source has something to do with earth, fire, wind, and water, rather than the Elemental Chaos?
That's a pretty thin distinction--the Elemental chaos is pretty much about, you know, the elements. Hence the name. And here I'm including more than just earth, air, fire, and water--but the existing arcane classes already cover the whole mishmash of keywords thing, including acid or thunder or whatever else. Like, sure, they could do something focusing more on the chaos thing, but even if they make a really chaotic dude with the power source, his powers are going to have to do something, and I can't imagine what that would be other than using various elemental keyword powers for a guy with a tie to the Elemental Chaos. And if you want a chaotic guy who uses elements, we already know of the Wild Magic Sorcerer.
My point being, what difference do you think being linked to the Elemental Chaos instead of just the elements could really provide? And I mean besides just fluff--saying a guy has a direct tie to the Elemental Chaos instead of just the elements is well and good, but if his powers end up just being a bunch of elemental sorts of spells and things, it's somewhat moot, because it still overlaps with what we've got. Even if they make a class that does different things with the elements than any we've seen, why did they need a whole new power source for that when clearly the Arcane power source worked fine for all the other characters who can channel various elements?
I suppose the Abyss is in the Elemental Chaos technically, but if they're going to make a dark abyssal type class using the Elemental power source, why have Shadow in the mix?
And just to be clear: I'm asking this stuff on purely academic grounds, I don't really care that much. Making Elemental a power source isn't going to hurt anything, and it certainly isn't something I'm up in arms about, I'm just not sure what they could really do with it.
Therefore elemental classes may be able to use or choose two or more elements for their power keywords, maybe chosing which would be the best for the the situation. Still working on how this would affect the different roles however.
Bel
First thing, Assassins should be kept in the PP/ED sections of the book. The shadow classes should be named differently, like Ninja, a renamed Shadow Dancer (perhaps a redone Shadowcaster with Shadow Dancer abilities without the shadow pet), Illusionist, and Necromancer. The Assassin should not be a PC class.
-Elemental-
I think the elemental classes will have more to do with single element focused classes, like the Pyrokineticest, using the Fire, and other classes using the other three elements, Water for cold, Air for Lightning and Earth using Thunder. Force would most likely be a common damage type across the four classes. I think the Genisi race in the FRPG was a preview.
-Ki-
Monk is gonna be different than the 3.5 god of inaction. Don't expect a flurry of blows 5 to 6 hits per round. That will most like be an At Will using the difference between the roll and ac for a damage extra, possibly doubled after such level, tripled after another, and quadrubled at epic.
I think casters in Ki will be focuses on force projections and stunts, like Jedi in Star Wars, concentrating on self projection. Secondary effects will get interesting.
-Shadow-
As I mentioned above, the Assassin should not be a class. I like the advent of the Illusionist being a class by itself, as well as the necromancer. I wonder where the Transmuter will end up.
-Psychic-
Highly anticipated power source. I believe that the classes will be all renamed from the names used previously. I wonder if the Soulknife will end up being under the Ki power source.
As far as the races go, I think the "Gith" will be one race with two factions, instead of two completely separate races. I never got into this terrible race feud. The Dromite should be a lock, it is a third small race for a third book. (Halfling in first, Gnome in second) I would hope that the monster races like Kobold, goblin, Orc, Bugbear, Ogre and the like will be kept in the MM, where they belong. Elans are Warforged done with cloning, and might make a return. I hope that the Tibbit would make the jump to CORE, but I don't hold out much hope. Shadar-Kai might be PHB3's Dragonborn/Half Orc.
Other races to look at.
Minotaur
Kender (It could happen)
Thrikreen
Lupin
Rakshasa
Others I can't think of.
-edit-
Oh, and can we refrain from mentioning the ransomed Dragon Articles. They are basically previews for material that will come out later.
That's a pretty thin distinction--the Elemental chaos is pretty much about, you know, the elements. Hence the name. And here I'm including more than just earth, air, fire, and water--but the existing arcane classes already cover the whole mishmash of keywords thing, including acid or thunder or whatever else. Like, sure, they could do something focusing more on the chaos thing, but even if they make a really chaotic dude with the power source, his powers are going to have to do something, and I can't imagine what that would be other than using various elemental keyword powers for a guy with a tie to the Elemental Chaos. And if you want a chaotic guy who uses elements, we already know of the Wild Magic Sorcerer.
My point being, what difference do you think being linked to the Elemental Chaos instead of just the elements could really provide? And I mean besides just fluff--saying a guy has a direct tie to the Elemental Chaos instead of just the elements is well and good, but if his powers end up just being a bunch of elemental sorts of spells and things, it's somewhat moot, because it still overlaps with what we've got. Even if they make a class that does different things with the elements than any we've seen, why did they need a whole new power source for that when clearly the Arcane power source worked fine for all the other characters who can channel various elements?
I suppose the Abyss is in the Elemental Chaos technically, but if they're going to make a dark abyssal type class using the Elemental power source, why have Shadow in the mix?
And just to be clear: I'm asking this stuff on purely academic grounds, I don't really care that much. Making Elemental a power source isn't going to hurt anything, and it certainly isn't something I'm up in arms about, I'm just not sure what they could really do with it.
I'm hoping we get some transmutation going, molding the primal blocks that create the world not just channel mundane energy.
Also I've been saying for quite a while now that the Arcane power source is WAY too broad and ill-defined. Just like in old edition arcane classes can do ANYTHING they want! They just don't do it BETTER than anybody else but they still steal everybody's schtick with impunity.
I would imagine that whatever is in PHB3 will relate somewhat to the setting that is coming out in 2010. I'm still thinking it is going to be Dark Sun, and couple that with the fact that psionics are important to the 2009 setting of Eberron, that almost makes them a dead ringer in my book for inclusion.
Now, I have to ask why does everyone assume that there are going to be 8 classes in each PHB? Just because the class grid can be filled, doesn't mean it should, case in point the lack of a martial controller. There may be some powersources that wouldn't work with certain roles. That's fine in my books. It is also an assumption that there will be 3 powersources in each PHB. If there is to be PHB every year, then the powers that be may only include two powersources so that others can be spread out, not to mention given proper development time.
Now, on to races whatever the powersources that are included in the PHB's, they will have races that tie into the new classes and such, at least thematically. Example, if psionics shows up it is almost a given for Githyanki and Githzerai. If Dark Sun is to come Thri-Kreen and Mul could be included, however it is likely that those two would be in a Dark Sun Player's Guide.
Now onto my predictions
The powersources included in PHB3 will be Psionic and Ki and that's it.
Classes:
Psionic:
I believe a leader under the name Empath was referenced in one of the developer blogs, if anyone can cite the source I'd appreciate it.
I'd like to see the Elocator prestige class as a striker that focuses on temporal acceleration etc, as the striker. Flavour wise, I think it would be fun. However, this could work as a defender as well, and give us a highly mobile defender type.
I'd like to see a class (controller?) that focuses on dominating the minds of foes, though this could work as a striker as well - dominating one foe crushing their mind and getting them to fight against their former allies. Would be a unique idea for a striker. You extra damage comes from the attack of a dominated foe, or while you are in control of said foe their mind is slowly destroyed (hp damage).
Another idea for a controller is one who uses ectoplasm to create weapons, barriers, and allies. I also think that an illusionist could come into play not by being arcane or shadow but as a psionic class. Forcing the enemy to see something that is not there - once again, could work very well as a striker.
Ki:
Monk we KNOW this is coming and I believe it was said that it will be a striker.
Since Ki and Psionic seem to both be an internal power source the soulknife could be relegated to Ki - where they conjure a weapon that is representive of what they are, a weapon soul.
other than that I can't think of the other ki classes. All I know is that they should be internal focused
Now, since I believe that PHB 3 will only have the two powersources and thus it will say on the cover under Players Handbook 3 Psi - Ki Heroes we should maybe have a therapist class. Leader, of course, you get healed in battle as the therapist surfaces repressed memories and gets you to blame all your problems on your parents.
On to races.
Since it is psionic and Ki I bet we'll see more psionic based races than ones on Ki. Ki seems to be something that everyone has, that and I can give any conjecture because I never had the incarnum book.
But, I bet we'll see:
Githyanki to tie in with the psionic theme
Githzerai less a psionic theme, and more of a focus on the monk/ki theme
Basically the gith were one race and half focused on the personal power projected outward (psionic and githyanki) and the other on personal power focused inward (ki and githzerai)
Doppleganger - I don't think we'll see this in the Eberron book, and since the doppleganger monster has been eliminated and combined with the changeling I think the race would be a good psionic fit because then you can get a race that can imitate someone by reading their mind - in fact, would make a good racial paragon path in my opinion and I suspect we'll see racial paragon paths showing up in every PHB now.
Dromite - I actually like these guys for some reason.. maybe because they remind me of an old toy line for the 1980's called Sectaurs.
Thri-kreen unless they are to show up in a Dark Sun Player's Guide, which I'd rather see them in.
I hope they break it down 4/2/2 again, with shadow/ki/psionic.
Shadow Controller: Illusionist
Shadow Defender: Blackguard
Shadow Leader: Necromancer
Shadow Striker: Ninja
Ki Striker: Monk
Ki Defender: Samurai
Psionic Leader: ???
Psionic Controller: ???
I think Blackguard will still be reserved for Evil Paladins, and therefore a divine class.
Hexblade however would be a good choice for a Shadow Defender. Or possibly Striker.
On the race issue, I think that if the speculation is right, and Darksun is going to be the next setting after Eberron, that Thri-Kreen, like the Shifters, would make the best cross setting race from DS. Thri-Kreen could find a niche in the other settings fairly easily, in some odd out of the way area.
Muls and Dromites seem much more setting specific, like Warforged or Kalastari to Eberron and Genasi or Drow for FR. As such, they should be in the DSPG.
Just my personal take on it.
When it comes right down to it, we will ultimately be, at least slightly, surprised by the mechanics, because WotC itself has said that the company plans on doing more daring things with each new power source. Therefore, because the sky's the limit, the best bet for discovering what sort of things the classes will do is by thinking about the relationship between those Elemental characters and their power source.
In order to ensure that there are no built-in problems between classes, it seems likely that Elemental characters will not have the Primordials as direct patrons, which interests the heck out of me. I used to imagine that Divine characters and Elemental characters would have a built in problem between them, with the Primal characters in the middle of the debate, but now I'm pretty sure that's wrong.
After all, WotC seems pretty set on making sure you can put these characters together in any combination, and, if there WERE problems, Elemental characters would have disputes with BOTH Divine AND Primal characters. To me, that seems like an unlikely (and unneccesary) connundrum.
In addition, if Elemental characters simply draw on the latent energy or residue of the Elemental Chaos, they start to sound like Arcane characters again.
So, what it comes to is that I wonder how Elemental characters will be able to perform their powers.
Did they bind an elemental or archon to their spirit?
Are they stealing power from the Primordials without their knowledge?
Did they make a pact of some sort with the Primordials even if they don't like them much?
Are they simply adept at connecting planes together in strategic ways? (ie The Elemental character opens portals to the Elemental Chaos and fire shoots out, or the like). ***And if this is so, what do they use to accomplish this?***
Are they actually alchemists who have learned, through study, how to change one element into another? (ie Of the Full Metal variety
)Or maybe they serve the Primordials after all. But, if this is the case, why would they work with Divine or Primal characters (aside from DM railroading or the metagame understanding that a party is SUPPOSED to work together)? ***This seems like the least elegant solution to me***
Well, those are my current guesses, and, as always, this is an amazingly long post. Let me know what you think. Once we get to a point where we know HOW Elemental characters get their power, we can start to guess what they could do with that sort of "patron."
In layman's terms, a big part of a super hero is his origin story.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
I just wanted to throw in an observation I made in the PH2: despite the fact that the Primal Spirits tossed the gods out of the world on their ear however long ago, the PH2 takes pains to point out that Primal characters and Divine characters would get along peachy keen. They explain it in a fun way, and it works for me, but it got me to thinking about Elemental characters.
When it comes right down to it, we will ultimately be, at least slightly, surprised by the mechanics, because WotC itself has said that the company plans on doing more daring things with each new power source. Therefore, because the sky's the limit, the best bet for discovering what sort of things the classes will do is by thinking about the relationship between those Elemental characters and their power source.
In order to ensure that there are no built-in problems between classes, it seems likely that Elemental characters will not have the Primordials as direct patrons, which interests the heck out of me. I used to imagine that Divine characters and Elemental characters would have a built in problem between them, with the Primal characters in the middle of the debate, but now I'm pretty sure that's wrong.
After all, WotC seems pretty set on making sure you can put these characters together in any combination, and, if there WERE problems, Elemental characters would have disputes with BOTH Divine AND Primal characters. To me, that seems like an unlikely (and unneccesary) connundrum.
In addition, if Elemental characters simply draw on the latent energy or residue of the Elemental Chaos, they start to sound like Arcane characters again.
So, what it comes to is that I wonder how Elemental characters will be able to perform their powers.
Did they bind an elemental or archon to their spirit?
Are they stealing power from the Primordials without their knowledge?
Did they make a pact of some sort with the Primordials even if they don't like them much?
Are they simply adept at connecting planes together in strategic ways? (ie The Elemental character opens portals to the Elemental Chaos and fire shoots out, or the like). ***And if this is so, what do they use to accomplish this?***
Are they actually alchemists who have learned, through study, how to change one element into another? (ie Of the Full Metal variety
Or maybe they serve the Primordials after all. But, if this is the case, why would they work with Divine or Primal characters (aside from DM railroading or the metagame understanding that a party is SUPPOSED to work together)? ***This seems like the least elegant solution to me***
Well, those are my current guesses, and, as always, this is an amazingly long post. Let me know what you think. Once we get to a point where we know HOW Elemental characters get their power, we can start to guess what they could do with that sort of "patron."
In layman's terms, a big part of a super hero is his origin story.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Eight classes per PHB and four classes per power source in the PHB series is probably a safe assumption. It's not about grid filling, it's about having enough classes to justify the existence of a power source to begin with - along with all that entails (particularly a splat book dedicated to that one source).
Four just seems to be about the right number. If you have more ideas then that, they can be spun off into campaign books, or rendered down and combined. If you have less then that then it isn't too hard to expand out - see the Warden in PHBII.
As for how many sources per PHB - I don't think we can assume that one way or the other. Both 4/2/2 and 4/4 seem equally viable.
It is reasonable to assume that the next books will have two new power sources instead of one and filler of two previous. 4/4 seems likely in this regard for the PHB3
On Elemental Power Source
Whether in PH3 or PH4, I think Elemental will certainly tie into the core story involving deities/spirits/primordials. The angle of the mechanics and the feel of the fluff are where it will be differentiated. IOW, it may involve powers that do energy-type damage, but the techniques and story will be different.
Mechanics-wise:
Fluff-wise, the devs may write "the other side of the story" for the Elemental power source by:
Plus there has been mention of Primordials embodying things other than the elements (e.g., darkness, madness, etc.).
Just my
.
Mechanics-wise:
- An Arcane character might cast fireball and do fire damage to all creatures hit in a ranged burst. An Elemental character might cause lava to erupt from the ground and do fire damage to enemies-only in a close burst.
- A Primal character might summon a mighty wind to do cold damage and keep enemies from approaching. An Elemental character might banish the air within a zone to do cold damage and stun enemies.
Fluff-wise, the devs may write "the other side of the story" for the Elemental power source by:
- Revealing the existence of benevolent primordials, or
- Presenting characters that tap into the positive aspects of primordials (creation, transformation) while trying to minimize (or not) the more negative and destructive aspects.
Plus there has been mention of Primordials embodying things other than the elements (e.g., darkness, madness, etc.).
Just my
.This being said, Two VERY significant Oriental Adventures to Complete Series Classes are NOT Ki-type, but rather Elemental. The previously Divine Shugenja and the previously Arcane Wu Jen. Both deal with elements in a unique way, looking at them from the Japanese and Chinese perspectives accordingly. These classes, if anything, could help define what Elemental is, and it's dealing with the nature of the elemental wheels and tables. Such would offer room for an Alchemist Class, though based on the second class feature option (Curative Admixture) for the Artificer, it seems the class-alchemists are being folded into the Artificers.
Then again, Elemental could easily be drawing from the Primordials, and it all makes me wonder how they're going to fold in the clearly elemental-based Shugenja and Wu Jen. Wu Jen, with all it's taboos, looks like it could be someone who places restrictions on the wild flow of elemental energy, in order to control it into a useable force. Shugenjas look more like an ascetic or priest amongst elementalists, perhaps devoted to a particular Primordial and their domain. This would be rather limiting, however, as it means you're either good or bad against the enemies, depending on their resistances to that energy type.
I would be surprised if they renamed these classes with a generic name, rather than keeping the eastern name... though they did keep Kensai, and that counts for something. Ninja, however, seems like it's folding into these "True" Assassins, either to utilise a western (universal?) name for the class, or Ninjas becoming a class build or paragon path (like the Ninja Spy Prestige Class of 3e OA).
All this leads to the point that with Oriental classes in Ki, Shadow, and Elemental, and the near finished state of Psionics, that Oriental Adventures won't come out until 2011, with PHB4. Thus we'll get Psionics and Ki definitely in PHB3, possibly Shadow, but they'll probably hold that back to sell Elemental better. Dark Sun is a must with PHB3 in 2010. Then again, with the necromantic elements of the Githyanki, Shadow just well may appear in a 4/2/2. Whatever the case, Shadar-kai won't get a full write-up until PHB4 with the completion of Shadow, because they just got a Dragon writeup. Warforged got a write up WAY back near the beginning of 4e last year, and with their appearance in Eberron Player's Guide (which seems odd considering the Dragon write-up and the need for room for other Eberron races like a Doppelganger write-up (Changeling) and the Kalashtar), the Warforged differences between Dragon and EPG will determine the way other races will make their way to book form from subscriber-only e-magazine. Actually, the subscriber-only part is the key word, because if Warforged are a common race in Eberron still, then forcing Eberron players to subscribe to DDi to get the write up is NOT a good idea buisness-wise, unless that Warforged article was free preview of DDi anyways, and thus anyone could get it. Whatever the case, Eberron players will want their Warforged alongside other books as a Core Race.
First of all, the possibility that Elemental will simply undergo a name and focus change. It becomes something else. The developers may very easily find that their initial hypothesis, which was to leave enough 'elemental design room' for a whole power source to complement arcane, didn't bear out, particularly after the sorcerer. However, I kinda like this idea: Elemental isn't actually about 'elements' as they are so commonly interpreted, which is fire/water/etc. Instead, the name Elemental references the word's actual definition, which is (from dictionary.com): 'a component or constituent of a whole'. Instead of fire or water, the elemental power source literally means drawing power from the fundamental elements of creation.
This includes concepts from 3.5's Tome of Magic, specifically the binder and truenamer's ability to shape themselves and the world around them with ineffable forces of creation. An elemental character would have the ability to warp terrain, objects, his weapons, and even his own body to fight. It's a niche of magic that has been overlooked so far, and seems unlikely to be covered in the other three confirmed power sources. Where an arcane character combines the elements of the world to produce an overtly magical effect, creating something new, the elementalist can only work with what he's given... Essentially, the transmuter's power source. It would require a new and rather refreshing focus on weapons and armor, firmly sharing that domain with the monopolistic martial characters. They can't lob a ball of fire, but they can make a bundle of arrows stand up and dance, a metal shield smother them like cloth, a longsword melt into quicksilver and grow any variety of wings, claws, or helpful other appendages. Just look at Tome of Magic's vestiges and truenaming magical effects for inspiration.
Anyway, it's just a thought.
As far as the actual composition of each PHB goes, I'd like to posit the notion that WotC prefers books with a strong singular theme... personally, I think they'll continue to use a 4-2-2 format. The PHB2 isn't necessarily all about wild characters away from civilization, but notice that avengers and invokers seem to have a secluded flavor to them, and the bards and sorcerers of the world are much more inclined to the wilder fringes of society. Yes, they can make their way in the halls of civilization just fine, but it's not as potent an archetype as the classic wizard's libraries or the cleric's churches. Why is this important? Well, it lends the PHB2 a certain aura of secrecy and mysticism, where the PHB1 feels a lot more established and common.
I predict the PHB3 will include all of the Psionic classes, and a smattering of Ki and Shadow. The Monk and Ninja in particular seem to go well with Psionic's theme of strong discipline and mental focus, and these are the classes that will be represented by monasteries, secluded places of tranquility that a truly still and powerful psyche can develop.
The PHB4 on the other hand will release the rest of the Ki and Shadow classes, along with Elemental's full showing. If elemental is anything like I've considered above, then this book will have the theme of entropy, the fundamental forces of the universe, and conflict. This is where we may get the most clearly nasty, or at least amoral types of characters: The necromancer, the binder, the hexblade and whatnot.
Ki and Shadow, like the Divine and Arcane power sources, seem to encompass the widest range of variant themes. Divine, as we've witnessed, can be the blunt, no subtlety cleric or paladin, as well as the sneaky avenger. Shadow can go in a variety of directions, between illusory and mystifying, to creepy crawly hexing and undeadening. Ki seems to be a bit of a grab bag itself, and Arcane is obviously just all over the damn place. I think these power sources lend themselves well to riding shotgun with other power sources.
The other four, by contrast, seem to demand their own conceptual space. Primal has to all go together, and make flower chains with their spirit buddies. Martial characters just like to bang their chests and show off their leet super skillz. I personally couldn't fathom a reason to split up the Psionic classes, and Elemental... well, whatever they turn out to be.
Now I've pretty much talked myself out on this topic. Sorry about the length guys... indulge me. It was, at least, cathartic. :P
As far as the actual composition of each PHB goes, I'd like to posit the notion that WotC prefers books with a strong singular theme... personally, I think they'll continue to use a 4-2-2 format. The PHB2 isn't necessarily all about wild characters away from civilization, but notice that avengers and invokers seem to have a secluded flavor to them, and the bards and sorcerers of the world are much more inclined to the wilder fringes of society. Yes, they can make their way in the halls of civilization just fine, but it's not as potent an archetype as the classic wizard's libraries or the cleric's churches. Why is this important? Well, it lends the PHB2 a certain aura of secrecy and mysticism, where the PHB1 feels a lot more established and common.
I predict the PHB3 will include all of the Psionic classes, and a smattering of Ki and Shadow. The Monk and Ninja in particular seem to go well with Psionic's theme of strong discipline and mental focus, and these are the classes that will be represented by monasteries, secluded places of tranquility that a truly still and powerful psyche can develop.
Yes, 4/2/2 could definitely work in a manner like this. There is still hope!
On the Elemental stuff, yes, there will definitely be more to it than "the elements." I can't see there not being. The transmutation shtick is one of the cooler possibilities bouncing around that could fall under it.
We should try to stay away from Tome of Magic's classes however. Truenamer has been reworked as an Epic Destiny (Lorekeeper, PHB2, 173), and the Binder as the Vestige Pact Warlock in Arcane Power. Otherwise, this idea is quite solid.
Congrats, you managed to convince me back to the concept of 4/2/2: you rose the point of central themes. IF Shugenja are Elemental now, however, they would be monastic, and would thereby fit alongside Monk and certain Psionic classes. Also, the Empath is a character that is very much working in tandum with other people, reaching out to them. Isolation is probably not the best them for PHB3 (especially since Primal already is a bit of a reclusive power source in PHB2).
I like the PHB4 theme though. I could see that easily develop as the final of the originally-planned power source PHBs, especially since they're "getting bolder with each book."
As a throwback to a MUCH early discussion on this thread, the Sorcerer went through three initial stages before reaching this point, according to my recall - Arcane Controller (undistinguished from Wizard), Primal Controller (Wild Magic being from the wild forces of nature), Arcane Controller again (return to the Arcane roots), and then finally released as an Arcane Striker because it's about blasting. This is what happens when an entire thread is read over a couple hours...
So now I'm feeling the 4 Psionic / 2 Ki / 2 Shadow with Dark Sun; and with PHB4, 4 Elemental / 2 Ki / 2 Shadow with Oriental Adventures.
Oriental Adventures fits into that chaotic world as strictly order-and-law based society, rejecting that chaos completely... or else fighting a constant battle against it. What you'd get is two worlds: the one presented by earlier Player's Handbooks and Power Sources, that are very compatible with civilisation, and the current PHB's chaotic powers. And Primal doesn't necessarily have to side with the Chaotic powers of PHB4; remember that Primal can exist in tandem with civilisation because they have greater enemies; this reflects Shintoist belief (and the reason, or so I've heard, the Japanese see no inconsistency between big cities and high technology and nature worship).
All in all, I'm excited about now having PHB2, about PHB3 prospects, about PHB4 prospects; prospects for new Campaign Settings and PHB themes, and new races and classes. I love 4e so much, and I wonder what direction, fluff-wise, D&D will have to turn when 5e becomes inevitable in 7-10 years.
This seems to be based on the idea that all Primordials think alike. It is possible that some of the elementals have taken a liking to the mortal world, and begin peaceful contact with divine and primal powers. It is just with the Abyss so close, it is easier to find negative patrons then positive ones. Yet there can be positive elemental forces out there for the PC.
I don't mean to be contrary, since I did ask for your thoughts on this, but I'm gonna be contrary for a minute anyway.
I notice that you said "elementals" in your post, but, since each individual elemental is far from powerful enough to grant abilities to another creature like a god might, I will assume that we are referring to the Primordials. After all, Primordials are basically elemental beings with god-like powers and the most likely elemental candidates for providing a power source.
I can completely understand your idea that an individual Primordial might find that it likes the mortal world just the way that it is and have a good bend to him. In fact, I agree that this sort of thing would happen all the time. After all, the Primordials created the world; why wouldn't they like it?
On the other hand, Primordials are beings of intrinsic and perfect chaos. Think of a Primordial like a child that loves to play with legos. He might work all day to build the "perfect" city out of his blocks, smiling all the while, but later, when he's done building it, he will want to build something else. From then until he starts again, all he will see of his city are the hundreds of tiny blocks that he could use to build something else. At that point, he dislikes his city because he thinks he can do it better next time.
In the same way, Primordials can love creation one day and hate it the next. In general, right now they hate the world because it is complete and they want to start again, but there are, doubtless, many who see the world positively currently. The problem is that tomorrow they may hate it.
Honestly, I doubt that the Primordials are either good or evil, but we know that they are chaotic. Their desire to destroy the world and start again means that their emissaries in the world would instantly be at odds with the Primal and Divine power sources (I do not say characters because each individual is different).
Again, this would only be if Elemental characters were servants of the Primordials (just as Divine characters are servants of the gods). It is possible that Elemental characters did make a deal with a Primordial durring one of its I-really-like-the-world-right-now phases, and that just carried over when the Primordial changed its mind.
This, however, feels like a clunky solution. I'm certain that we can come up with a more likely reason. If there are patron-esque creatures in the Elemental Chaos that are possibly aligned with gods and primal spirits, I am simply not aware of them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. This means that we would be dealing with something we know nothing about now ... which seems a bit unlikely. You'd think it would have been mentioned in Manuel of the Planes.
Anyways, that's my take on why the Primordials seem like a dead-end in the patron department. I may be missing something, though, so let me know what you think.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
PS: By the way, I'm behind the 4/2/2 argument. I think Psionics and Ki will have two classes each with another power source filling the four slot, and I'll tell you why.
Splitting the two most popular power sources between two books means more sales. In other words, "yeah, you get your Monk in PH3, but, if you want your Ninja, you gotta buy PH4! Suckas!" It's the same deal as we saw with the PH and PH2 (only less pronounced).
It's a good strategy to ensure that DMs don't outlaw certain power sources out of hand. The DM that allows Monks is gonna be strongly incented to allow Psions (or whatever they're called) in his game too.
Personally, I don't mind it, but that doesn't mean that I'm blind to why they do it either.
Okay! Now I'm really done.
That is fair enough. Teleportation should definitely be beyond the nature of martial characters (unless it's racial or grantd from an item or something). I would argue that stelath and teleportation do fit neatly into the Ki power source though. And since i'm still unclear on exactly what Ki power will entail, some illusion may fall into that category as well.
I can imagine a martial character teleporting, it's called a "Flash Step" a common anime martial maneuver. it involves movement fast enough to blur the line of sight for limited amounts of time.
I can imagine a martial character teleporting, it's called a "Flash Step" a common anime martial maneuver. it involves movement fast enough to blur the line of sight for limited amounts of time.
Anime stuff like that is mostly going to be Ki.
-Ardent = Psionic Defender
-Empath = Psionic Leader
-Geomancer/Wu-Jen = Elemental Controller
-Hexblade – Shadow Defender
-Illusionist = Shadow Controller
-Monk = Ki Striker
-Necromancer = Shadow Leader
-Ninja/Assassin = Shadow Striker
-Shaper/Wilder = Psionic Controller
-Shugenja = Elemental Leader
-Sohei/Soulknife = Ki Defender
-Telepath/Kineticist = Psionic Striker
-Ki Powers: Stunts/Techniques
-Psionic Powers: Manifestations
-Shadow Powers: Mysteries
Races:
-Kalashtar
-Half-Giant
-Githzerai
-Mul
-Thri-Kreen
I can imagine a martial character teleporting, it's called a "Flash Step" a common anime martial maneuver. it involves movement fast enough to blur the line of sight for limited amounts of time.
Rogue's and other martial classes can already shift or move rapidly in a single action, like a blur of motion, hell, Master Infiltraitors can turn "invisible", but Teleport? They can't actually do that. "Flash Step" isn't teleporting, its just moving fast.
Races:
-Kalashtar
-Half-Giant
-Githzerai
-Mul
-Thri-Kreen
Aren't Goliath essentially Half-Giants?
Plus each PHB has to have a small race so I'd throw Goblins in there.
And...bugbear, bugbear, bugbear, bugbear!!!!
Although, they could have a third new source pop-in for a couple classes and save a psionic or ki class for the 2010 campaign guide.
-Aren't Goliath essentially Half-Giants?
-Plus each PHB has to have a small race so I'd throw Goblins in there.
-True.
-Maybe Kender! *ducks*
My current speculations (nothing more):
-Ardent = Psionic Defender
-Empath = Psionic Leader
-Shaper/Wilder = Psionic Controller
-Sohei/Soulknife = Ki Defender
-Telepath/Kineticist = Psionic Striker
Well, soulknife was a roguey psionic class, so they'd fit better as a psionic striker.
Psionic warrior would be the defender and psion the controller.
The leader would likely be something new.
Races:
-Kalashtar
-Half-Giant
-Githzerai
-Mul
-Thri-Kreen
Kalashtar are pretty much a shoe-in for the Eberron book. And Half-giants, thri-kreen, and mul are so Dark Sun orientated they'd have to be in that book.
More than likely it'd be a mix of ki/psionic races so githzeria, githyanki, and either kobolds or goblins. But since we've had goblin blues (psionic goblins) they'd be the likely candidate, possibly complimented by hobgoblins and bugbears.
1.) Well, soulknife was a roguey psionic class, so they'd fit better as a psionic striker.
2.) psion the controller.
3.) The leader would likely be something new.
1.) If they change the class name to Mindknife, as Ki is the power source of the soul.
2.) I don't think we'll see a class called Psion, as that would be like an Arcane class called Arca.
3.) Empath is practically confirmed as a Psionic Leader class.
Dusk or Hex, which invokes an image of shadows, and which invokes an image of witchcraft?
I'd say have Duskblade be the class, and have Hexblade be a PP for Swordmage.
Rogue's and other martial classes can already shift or move rapidly in a single action, like a blur of motion, hell, Master Infiltraitors can turn "invisible", but Teleport? They can't actually do that. "Flash Step" isn't teleporting, its just moving fast.
Question: If a movement of 60 ft takes less than 1/90th of a second, so as to be faster than the human eye can process, how is that functionally different from instant teleportation?
Question: If a movement of 60 ft takes less than 1/90th of a second, so as to be faster than the human eye can process, how is that functionally different from instant teleportation?
One can be stopped with a wall or deep chasm and one can't?
Githyanki and Githzeri, they are a must for the book that introduces Ki and Psionics. Shadar-Kai would be expected too, if they have Shadow classes. beyond that I'm not sure.
Classes:
For Shadow, I'm a big fan of the HexBlade but we may have to wait for PH4, I would like too see them as a Shadow Defender with a strong secondary Controller role; the Hexblade(Duskblade) wouldn't 'Defend' by guarding their allies and soaking up attacks but more so by debuffing and hindering marked enemies and being able to negate or redirect attacks. Necromancer as a Shadow Leader and Beguiler(Illusionist) as Shadow Controller seems like a safe bet for the first two Shadow Classes. Ninja(Shadowdancer) I see as the forth shadow class
For Ki, we have the Monk confirmed and I expect we will see something more showy to go along with it that has an Incarnumesq feel to it.
And I think we are going to see the Psionic classes get another reorganization.
So now I'm feeling the 4 Psionic / 2 Ki / 2 Shadow with Dark Sun; and with PHB4, 4 Elemental / 2 Ki / 2 Shadow with Oriental Adventures.
I think the title "Oriental Adventures" is gonna be retired, replaced by a placable setting that will be able to be inserted into an existing campaign as a separate continent/land. There are already several established settings that is wanted more like DragonLance, Planescape, Greyhawk (which has been noted as a possibility), Dark Sun (Mentioned here), Ravenloft, and others which I can't think of.
Oriental Adventures was really a PHB type book in the previous edition, and sort of like an Unearthed Arcana type book in 2nd. (The one with COM rules, not this new one in 3.5)
My current speculations (nothing more):
-Ardent = Psionic Defender
-Empath = Psionic Leader
-Geomancer/Wu-Jen = Elemental Controller
Ardent? I keep wanting it to be three syllables.
I don't think Wizards is gonna use a FF term, but Wu Jen might be renamed into something. Any Thoughts here, everyone?
-Hexblade/(Duskblade) – Shadow Defender
-Illusionist = Shadow Controller
I think that a Shadow Dancer type class will be in PHB3, the (I like the Duskblade name better) Duskblade being pushed to PHB4
-Monk = Ki Striker
-Necromancer = Shadow Leader
-Ninja/Assassin = Shadow Striker
I agree with another in this thread that the Necromancer may be pushed back to PHB4.
Please stop using the Assassin term. Keep that with the PP/ED portion, we do not need an Assassin class. Ninja sounds good for Shadow.
-Shaper/Wilder = Psionic Controller
-Shugenja = Elemental Leader
-Sohei/Soulknife/(Mindknife) = Ki Defender
-Telepath/Kineticist = Psionic Striker
I think the Shaper name is a better one. Wilder in the previous edition was a clone of another class in a Psi power source type grouping.
I like the name Mindknife, sounds much better than the old name. I think this class would be the Jedi like class, even having a light saber like weapon in the focused creation of the Mindknife manifestation. I can see powers that would focus on doing things with the mindknife, Ohhhh, the possibilities. Putting it into the Ki power source would make sense. I have always liked that this class could go places unarmed and have a weapon come into being when hostilities would commence. Though maybe the Soulknife name may be kept if it does go over to the Ki power Source.
Races:
-Kalashtar
-Half-Giant
-Githzerai
-Mul
-Thri-Kreen
Let me add...
Kender
Dromite
Gith (Zari and Yanki being casts off the same race, sort of like Star Trek's Vulcan and Romulan)
--
I think the Half Gaint is already renamed Goliath, as mentioned by Undrave.
No to Mul.
The want for the gobliniods to be Player Races is not something that I agree with. Bugbear, Orc, Goblin, Hob-Goblin, etc. Keep them in the MM.
I still want the Tibbit race (Dragon Compendium, 3.5) to be consider for one of the PHB's
Please stop using the Assassin term.
No, you obviously have a personal issue with that title, which is your choice and that of course is fine, but many of us don't, not only does it suit a Shadow Striker (Ninja could be fine as well, but I'm open to the both titles), IMO, it has also been a class in 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ed, so it carries some legacy action as well.
No, you obviously have a personal issue with that title, which is your choice and that of course is fine, but many of us don't, not only does it suit a Shadow Striker (Ninja could be fine as well, but I'm open to the both titles), IMO, it has also been a class in 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ed, so it carries some legacy action as well.
It was a NPC PrC (Evil) class in the previous edition, which did three things when it was included. It provided the "class" for those that wanted it (and could strongarm their dm to play evil characters), Made the creation of an actual Assassin class not to be needed, and made for a surprise for monsters to use against players.
Second Edition had it in a book somewhere as a kit? The first edition Assassin was overpowered and banned by any component DM at the time.
The Shadow Assassin PP is already in the PHB, I am one to believe that is it for this name.
Martial is "complete." No more martial classes. Ever. Arcane should be done, but pretty much whenever a class doesn't quite fit another power source or they don't want to release the new source early, they toss it in Arcane *coughsorcerercough*. Arcane is up to, what now, 6 classes? Nothing else has more than four.
From here on out, safe money is on two sources per PHB, with four classes from each. Next up is likely Psionic and Ki. In fact, we know Ki is coming because the monk playtest is coming out.
Personally, I'd like them to delay the familiar stuff. I don't care about Ki or Psionic, I want to see what else they have up their sleeves. Aka: I want to know what Elemental will be like!
Arcane have 5 I believe (Swordmage, Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer and Wizard), and martial isn't really complete, it still lack a controller, albeit suspect that might be in Eberron or Darksun if they do that, some sort of reach weapon user most likely (whip, polearm or chain). Could be they make it for Darksun, the Gladiator?
I imagine Kalashtar will be in that or the ECS (Also suspect that Kalashtar will become the missing WIS, CHA race, unless I have missed that one somewhere?)
Arcane have 5 I believe (Swordmage, Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer and Wizard), and martial isn't really complete, it still lack a controller, albeit suspect that might be in Eberron or Darksun if they do that, some sort of reach weapon user most likely (whip, polearm or chain). Could be they make it for Darksun, the Gladiator?
I imagine Kalashtar will be in that or the ECS (Also suspect that Kalashtar will become the missing WIS, CHA race, unless I have missed that one somewhere?)
One thing that Wizards have been clear on is that the Power Sources/Role grid is not going to be filled. The Role will fit the Class, not be a Power Source check mark on the grid.
There may be other classes for power sources in setting player guides. (I would be surprised if the Artificer isn't Arcane) This isn't to try and fill a grid, but to provide some something unique to the setting. I would bet the same is being considered for the races, that there should be no "grid" to fill, and that certain combinations can be re-used if need be.
Artificer is Arcane (Or was as of the preview)
Thinking in the preview of the ghost Dragon mag. It is an Eberron Class.
1.) It was a NPC class in the previous edition
2.) It provided the "class" for those that wanted it (and could strongarm their dm to play evil characters),
3.) Second Edition had it in a book somewhere as a kit?
1.) No it wasn't, it does not say anywhere that it is an NPC class, you're thinking of the Adept etc.
2.) Or if it was an evil party, or solo campaign.
3.) It was a full blown class.
martial isn't really complete, it still lack a controller
And may always do so.
with a 2/3/3 spread of classes (2 ki classes monk and...., and 3 psi and 3 shadow classes)
shadow is not only the assassin but also the necromancer and the illusionist (which personally I wait with a passion)
psi could also get a new class from an ambientation book (if the go for dark sun or same planejammer thing)
this would lead to a phb 4 with one new power source and a slew of classes to complete the power sources of phb3 (a sort of phb1/phb2 scheme)
nice game to guess the phb3
hope to have the illusionist as playtest after the monk (even if some psi classes is more probable)
i fail to see how a ninja is really any different than a trickster rogue.
different boots?
:P
I expect 3 new power sources in PHB3 (ki, psi, shadow)
with a 2/3/3 spread of classes (2 ki classes monk and...., and 3 psi and 3 shadow classes)
samurai?
**
if they're going to bring in 3 new power sources, they should have a way to tap the power source for each of the 4 roles. that means *12* new character classes. start typing!
samurai?
I am still wondering, the monk is very characteristic of the ki power source but then?
the Heremit/Ascetic? if Ki is soul force than there is a lot of space for some kind of Ascetic character less martial and more controller of spirit? not sure
the samurai don't seem too different from the fighter
1.) No it wasn't, it does not say anywhere that it is an NPC class, you're thinking of the Adept etc.
2.) Or if it was an evil party, or solo campaign.
3.) It was a full blown class.
to me, Evil = npc.
Evil parties are a novelty, and not something that is the norm in regular D&D. Ravenloft was an experiment that was somewhat successful, but the normal party was still "good guys" that had an eventual goal to return to their own world.
I thought that it may have been, but Kits were somewhat confusing in this regard also. It wasn't, however, in the PHB. The book that it was in wasn't popular, but it was scorned for more than the classes it contained. It was also late in the 2nd edition run, in the middle of the glut of books that was released before T$R went belly up. Originally the Assassin was left out because it was overpowered and game breaking in the edition before it.
The PHB3 lineup may not depend too much on the forthcoming Setting Of The Year. Primal classes don't entirely jive with the techno-magical Eberron setting, after all.
I'd leave campaign setting books out of the tallies, since you're not supposed to need them to play D&D; so, if we do that, we leave out swordmage and the forthcoming real artificer in EPG and right now we have 4 classes in each of 4 power sources.
Seems like that's a decent model for WotC to follow: four "complete" power sources over two books, which means a 4/2/2 model is the way to go. At this point, Arcane and Divine Power can be released, with Primal Power right behind them. If PHB3 ships around 3/2010, that will take us to a presumed X Power around 10/2010. PHB4, 3/2011, completes the two PHB3 sources and adds a fourth - then we get X Power books in 4/2011, 6/2011, and 10/2011.
And let's not forget that 5th Edition will probably start getting some game-designer attention around that time, probably for release in 2014 or so.
The four more power sources need to be Ki, Psionic, Elemental, and Shadow. It wouldn't shock me if that turned out to be all: 4 PHBs for 4th edition. We know Ki will be in PHB3, probably as a 2-class release, and probably Psionics as a 4-class release, since it's an easy grid to fill, and rumor has it that it's almost ready now. I'd guess Elemental as the other 2-class, and Shadow as PHB4's 4-class release, focusing on the "evil-curious" types.
So my guesses as to class lineup... (BTW, I've put conjectural names in quotes; I don't expect them to stick.)
PHB3:
- Empath - Psionic Leader
- Monk - Ki Striker
- "Psion" - Psionic Controller
- "Psychic Warrior" - Psionic Defender
- "Samurai" - Ki Defender
- "Shugenja" - Elemental Leader
- Wilder - Psionic Striker
- "Wu Jen" - Elemental Controller
PHB4:
- Beguiler - Shadow Controller
- "Daimyo" - Ki Leader
- Hexblade - Shadow Defender
- Necromancer - Shadow Controller
- "Ninja" - Shadow Striker
- "Pyromancer" - Elemental Striker
- "Sohei" - Ki Defender
- "Tempest" - Elemental Controller
As for races, I'd like to see monstrous races farmed out into a Savage Species-type expansion, where we get
- bugbears
- gnolls (updated from Dragon)
- goblins
- hobgoblins
- kobolds
- lizardfolk
- minotaurs (updated from Dragon)
- orcs
with racial feats, paragon paths, equipment, etc., for all of them. There's enough there for a splatbook and I think it's all optional-rulesy, such that it belongs in an expansion rather than in a PHB. I can imagine this around 6/2010, in between PHB3 and Psionic Power.
So in PHB3 and PHB4, I imagine these new races:
- dromite
- elan
- githyanki
- githzerai
- thri-kreen
- dark one
- shadar-kai (updated)
- at least one more as-yet-unknown Shadowfell race
Eberron Player's Guide will likely bring us an updated warforged, changeling, and possibly kalashtar - although the latter are so tied up with psionics in Eberron that they probably won't make it in right away - and the artificer class, an arcane leader. A Dark Sun Player's Guide would certainly two of half-giants, mûls, and pterrans, all fairly DS-specific, but its classes might be a little different - central to the Dark Sun setting is the defiler/preserver conflict. Perhaps it's one arcane controller class with two divergent builds. Same powers for both. If you have the "defiler" class feature, you do extra damage with your attack powers, but you sap some life from around you, and you lean towards striker as a secondary role. If you're a "preserver", you don't do as much damage, but you might even transfer life energy from one place to another - leaning in a leader-ish direction.
The Japanese-flavored names for classes certainly can't stick, if for no other reason than that it really strains credulity (at least, it does mine) to drop Oriental Adventures into a campaign setting. It's one thing in Forgotten Realms, with the far-off land of Kara-Tur in the East, but it just doesn't fly at all in Dark Sun or anywhere else where it hasn't been specifically designed in.
to me, Evil = npc.
Again, your personal views/opinions/experiences etc; I've been running a solo campaign for my buddy's Lawful Evil Drow Assassin on and off for over 20 years (through all editions).
Again, your personal views/opinions/experiences etc; I've been running a solo campaign for my buddy's Lawful Evil Drow Assassin on and off for over 20 years (through all editions).
Having a character out of the norm is ok if the person can role play it right. An evil campaign is something that is fun to do for a bit before going back to regular D&D. Typically, though, in fighting within the party ends up ending the game and gets some players with flared up tempers. When a lawful good paladin is at odds in a party, most just think him as stuck up, or a little uptight. When a lawful Evil Assassin is at odds with the party, most think that he is up to something.
I, as a DM, don't want the complication of in party fighting. Good or Unaligned. I am just glad that Alignment isn't a central part of the game anymore.
1.) Typically, though, in fighting within the party ends up ending the game and gets some players with flared up tempers.
2.) I, as a DM, don't want the complication of in party fighting. Good or Unaligned. I am just glad that Alignment isn't a central part of the game anymore.
1.) I totally agree that in-fighting in a party is not a good thing, but if the whole party is Evil/Neutral there shouldn't be any particular in-fighting, aside from people just being knobs.
2.) Once again, I totally agree.
1.) I totally agree that in-fighting in a party is not a good thing, but if the whole party is Evil/Neutral there shouldn't be any particular in-fighting, aside from people just being knobs.
If the players are well versed in role playing and know how to have character sneak/exit out gracefully, that would be the case.
Good aligned parties usually get along with one another, and help each other with each other goals.
Evil aligned parties usually are together for one big goal and don't trust one another, and have their own agendas that may conflict with what the other members agendas. Instead of helping each other, they bicker, and ask "what's in it for me."
That is at the heart of Good vs Evil. Good parties may stay together for a long time, while Evil parties are temporary, and tend to part ways with heated debate and hurt feelings.
Hopefully we'll also see Bloodline feats, Multiclass-only classes and Grafts.
Psi will focus on Mind-Control, Precognition and Telekinesis, with a theme of Augmentation/Metamagic.
Classes will be:
Psion - Controller
PsiWar - Defender
Empath - Leader
Lurk - Controller
The names will be replaced with better ones.
Ki will focus on touch range powers and body control, with a theme of speed.
Classes will be:
Monk - Striker
Avatar - Defender
Incarnate - Striker
Bene Gesserit - Controller
I'd like to see the Elan as a race, but if they do make it they'll likely have a defined origin, if only to explain thier creature type. Hopefully they'll either be ascended/post singularity humans, Immortal guardians vs the Far, sentient fragments of shattered gods or enlightened ones who've created new bodies out of a mix of soul energy and dreamstuff.
the necromancer, assasin and illusionist are far more general and staple of fantasy then the various psi characters
so since it has been hinted that the shadow power source will be in it I would go for 3 shadow, 2 ki and 3 psi
Shadow
Illusionist
Assassin
Necromancer
KI
Monk
???
PSI
Empath
Enchanter
Psi blade
obviously if the 4/2/2 must be respected I expect 4 Shadow and 2 psi, 2 ki classes
Monk (Ki Striker): The easiest to envision. The mystical martial artist who channels his ki into his body to perform insane stunts. Attacks may include flurry-style rapid strikes, pressure point attacks that stun or slow enemies, and throws that reposition enemies. Will probably have Defender and Controller as secondary roles, depending on build. "Ki-blast" style attacks may also be included here, or farmed out to its own class (a Ki Controller or Leader).
Samurai/Sohei (Ki Defender): The ki-oriented swordsman or weapon master. Uses cloth armor and specializes in heavy blades (katana), spears, or polearms. Attacks may include rapidly drawing and sheathing his weapon to stop enemies that try to get past him, cutting down multiple enemies in a straight line, or creating a vacuum wave with his sword using the power of ki. As a highly mobile defender, may have Striker or Controller as secondary roles.
Other classes are a bit more difficult to figure out. A Ki Leader might be a Channeler or Mystic who focuses on channeling ki to his allies to buff their attacks, and represents the more ascetic rather than kung-fu style of monk/geomancer. Ki Controller might be used for a more DBZ-style monk who shoots energy blasts at the enemies, or a Ninja (if it's not part of the Shadow source).
I don't see the psi as prominent on the shadow power source
the necromancer, assasin and illusionist are far more general and staple of fantasy then the various psi characters
so since it has been hinted that the shadow power source will be in it I would go for 3 shadow, 2 ki and 3 psi
Shadow
Illusionist
Assassin
Necromancer
KI
Monk
???
PSI
Empath
Enchanter
Psi blade
obviously if the 4/2/2 must be respected I expect 4 Shadow and 2 psi, 2 ki classes
I don't see it. I think it will be 4 Psi, 2 Shadow and 2 Ki, or 4 Ki, 2 Psi and 2 Shadow.
I think the more physical shadow classes (Ninja/Shadowdancer) will be in the PHB4, and the Illusionist and Necromancer be in PHB3.
So...
Psi
Empath
Mindblade
Elocater (taking the place of the Physic Warrior)
"Wilder" type class renamed. Sorry, but it won't be a wild mage redressed like the previous edition.
Shadow
Illusionist
Necromancer
Ki
Monk
Samurai
Assassin will stay in PP and ED.
For races, I hope at this point for a werefox/ cat/ tanuki/ crane-type creature (in previous editions called "hengeyokai"). Foxes play roles in both Chinese and Japanese strange tales, and shapeshiting animals are found all over Japanese ones. Foxes grow more tales as they gain power. Cats split their tail as they gain power. I wonder if they should be different divisions of the same race: capable of tricks of sorcery, shapeshifts into objects and people, ...
My guess is that 4 classes per powersource are what PHs have for now, so no Martial or Primal classes in PH3. I'm hoping we get 4 Ki in one PH for handiness.
...
I subscribe the hope of hengeyokay back
as for 4 classes I think that with the more "strange" power source it will go down to 3 and the power book will concentrate on option
the MONK can have dozen of styles just for example
while a shadow defender seem a little unsound and so on
Assassin will stay in PP and ED.
This is your hope, please don't spread you desire as fact to the people on these boards, we could easily have a full-blown Assassin class in 4th Ed.
You seem to have a slightly myopic view of an Assassin, especially as it pertains to D&D, and especially 4th Ed, they might assassinate criminals, evil agents or devils or what have you, is the Avenger automatically considered evil, no, but they are also an assassin, just a divine one, so we could easily have a Shadow one: Assassin.
I know you're going to bring up Ninja, and that is also a possibility for a Shadow Striker, but they could easily turn out to be Ki.
Assassin/Avenger/Hassassin/Holy Slayer/Ninja etc.
I think you should quit while you're behind on your anti-Assassin campaign/crusade on these boards.
Ninja are considered coachroaches of the martial arts world. Most of the nifty powers you can think of for the Ninja would be Shadow based, and it makes sense to have them in that power source.
Yes, they have killed much like in the manner of an Assassin, but unlike Assassins, Ninja still have a code of honer that is like that among thieves, though with fierce enforcement. They kill for advancement for their cast, cause or to complete some mysterious task. Batman Begins has a good example of what Ninja might do to serve a greater purpose.
Assassins, on the other hand, are loners, and don't care about those they exhume, nor for any cause that doesn't involve in payment for the Assassin. They have no honor, no friends, and do not go into adventuring groups to risk their lives for such little reward.
This edition does not need an Assassin class, just as the previous edition didn't need it.
This edition does not need an Assassin class, just as the previous edition didn't need it.
on the other hand what is a 007 character type?
maybe it is just needed to broaden the definition of an assassin character
Not sure what the D&D version would be, I would guess a rogue would be sufficient.
1.) Ninja are considered coachroaches of the martial arts world. Most of the nifty powers you can think of for the Ninja would be Shadow based, and it makes sense to have them in that power source.
2.) Yes, they have killed much like in the manner of an Assassin, but unlike Assassins, Ninja still have a code of honer that is like that among thieves, though with fierce enforcement. They kill for advancement for their cast, cause or to complete some mysterious task. Batman Begins has a good example of what Ninja might do to serve a greater purpose.
3.) This edition does not need an Assassin class, just as the previous edition didn't need it.
1.) To you, these are not facts; they are more of your opinions and wild conjecture.
2.) Okay, this is getting silly at this point; honour among these thieves my bottom (and the Batman thing is embarrassing).
3.) For you, I think this edition needs a rocking Assassin class.
That would be a spy, not an Assassin.
Spy and assassin often overlap, wow, you really should stop this, for all of us, it's getting…weird.
Spy and assassin often overlap, wow, you really should stop this, for all of us, it's getting…weird.
I just remembered the whole thaX half-orc debacle.
I just remembered the whole thaX half-orc debacle.
I would say the Warlock debacle takes the cake. Though we did get the awesomeness of, crap! Forgot the name, of the Warlock with EVERY PACT!
I would say the Warlock debacle takes the cake. Though we did get the awesomeness of, crap! Forgot the name, of the Warlock with EVERY PACT!
Eh what did thaX have to do with Valeran Aldrik?
Eh what did thaX have to do with Valeran Aldrik?
Well I mean that both things occurred in the same thread. Wasn't there a bit of too, showcasing in the very beginning how one could Infernal and not evil, and thus the first story of Valeran?
Ehh, was a long while ago, may have misremembered.
Spy and assassin often overlap, wow, you really should stop this, for all of us, it's getting…weird.
Some assassins retire to become spies. Less stressful.
Why not just make an Mercenary class?
Some assassins retire to become spies. Less stressful.
Why not just make an Mercenary class?
because no mercenary will ever have 50% (and rising) of killing surprised encounters!
;) ;) ;)
assassins, devils, demons, fanatic devotee of pagan gods, entity from far reality, things that no human should ever think.....
this game is evvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilllllllllllllllllllllllllll :-)
:D
Some assassins retire to become spies. Less stressful.
Why not just make an Mercenary class?
Merc would make another good pseudo-class, like gladiator and assassin.
Bel
"No more martial classes" isn't necessarily true, because classes don't only show up in PHBs; they show up in PGs (Players Guides) as well. That's how we have over 4 Arcane classes. So while there will be no Martial classes in the PHB3, there may still be more Martial heroes to come via a Players Guide.
I was just looking over what they have made so far, and there is a striker, controller, leader, and defender for every power source except martial. Martial has no controller. I don't know what this class would be (chain master maybe?) But I hope to see a martial controller.
I was just looking over what they have made so far, and there is a striker, controller, leader, and defender for every power source except martial. Martial has no controller. I don't know what this class would be (chain master maybe?) But I hope to see a martial controller.
A certain power source does not need to have a class for each role. Wizards has said before that they are not trying to fill out a "grid" for roles within power sources.
I doubt we ever see a Martial Controller.
I am trying to figure out which Arcane class is a Defender.
A certain power source does not need to have a class for each role. Wizards has said before that they are not trying to fill out a "grid" for roles within power sources.
I doubt we ever see a Martial Controller.
I am trying to figure out which Arcane class is a Defender.
The Swordmage from the FRPG is an arcane defender.
Bel
Also, having a warlord yell at someone has the same restorative effect as clerical healing magic, and that makes sense. But not an archery controller, that'd be game breaking in it's absurdity.
We're not going to fill out the grid, by which we mean, we are going to completely fill the grid, to the point of absurdity, except for the Martial Controller, because for some reason, we've decided that ranged area attacks with status effects are absurd and unbelievable for a bow user, but casting spells is perfectly reasonable.
Also, having a warlord yell at someone has the same restorative effect as clerical healing magic, and that makes sense. But not an archery controller, that'd be game breaking in it's absurdity.
Quite.
I love how we don't raise an ewyebrow about killing fire breathing dragons with magical elves, but heaven forbid someone pick up a bow.
Quite.
I love how we don't raise an ewyebrow about killing fire breathing dragons with magical elves, but heaven forbid someone pick up a bow.
A area burst 1 is a mandatory controller power. That means it must be conceivable that you damage nine targets in less than 6 seconds. It breaks suspension of disbelief to have a class that can shoot 9 arrows in under 6 second right off the bat without any magic powers.
A area burst 1 is a mandatory controller power. That means it must be conceivable that you damage nine targets in less than 6 seconds. It breaks suspension of disbelief to have a class that can shoot 9 arrows in under 6 second right off the bat without any magic powers.
The closest I've seen to acceptable archer controller power allowed you to threaten a zone at range. It was innovative, but in the end, there wasn't much to the class beyond that single interesting power.
A area burst 1 is a mandatory controller power. That means it must be conceivable that you damage nine targets in less than 6 seconds. It breaks suspension of disbelief to have a class that can shoot 9 arrows in under 6 second right off the bat without any magic powers.
Well, Green Arrow could do it. :P
But if we're talking trick arrows, or just lobbing grenades for that matter, we're into alchemist/steampunk/technomancer territory. Not really "martial" anymore.
Just tossing a net might qualify, but that's a very limited schtick.
Besides, isn't the Fighter plenty controller-y as is? I mean, Come And Get It already stretches my suspension of disbelief a bit as a purely martial power.
A area burst 1 is a mandatory controller power. That means it must be conceivable that you damage nine targets in less than 6 seconds. It breaks suspension of disbelief to have a class that can shoot 9 arrows in under 6 second right off the bat without any magic powers.
THIS, This right here is the thing that keeps ******* me off!
Warlord - "Hey, Fighter, Get up, you can do it!" NO MAGIC INVOLVED
Fighter - "Oh my god! Due to your encouragement, suddenly, a quarter of my injuries have closed completely, now I'm conscious and not dying anymore! Totally without MAGIC!"
And that's okay. We don't have running forum wars about how unbelievable MARTIAL HEALING IS, but we have had over 2 year of people arguing that Shooting 9 arrows in 6 seconds is TOTALLY GAME BREAKINGLY UNBELIEVABLE...
It just bothers me.
Warlord - "Hey, Fighter, Get up, you can do it!" NO MAGIC INVOLVED
If HP were called "Morale" would you feel better?
And about the "Shooting 9 arrows at once" issue. Its not even that it suspends disbeleif at level 1 (though that certainly is an issue), but wrather the fact that there already IS a Martial archer: the Ranger! A ranger CAN shoot 9 arrows in less than 6 seconds... eventually, and not as often as he or she wishes. And besides, the reason a Gladiator class for a martial controller makes no sense is because ANY Martial character can use bolas, nets, and the rest: there was a DDI article! A grenade weilding class, as it has been said, would begin to use alchemy, and then be less stricly defined as Martial... But ANY class can use those, so why bother making a new class anyway?
The Martial Controller issues has been well over-discussed, for about a year now. The closest things to a Martial Controller I can see would be builds for the Ranger: Trapmaster. If one gives the ranger an ability not unlike the Artificer's where he is known to prepare his devices ahead of time, then being able to set traps in combat is not all that hard to believe, especially since Rangers can already get magical pets without being magical themselves. Even so, only some powers would be AOE's, much like a warlock's or sorcerer's, and Hunter's Quarry would also still apply. As such, such a character would still be a Striker, but it would then possess Controller qualities, like the Warlock and Sorcerer.
Why is there a need for a Martial Controller?
Play a Wizard, or any of the other Controller classes, it doesn't need to be a martial class.
The grid isn't there to fill in. There are, in fact, some classes that are in the grid twice or three times. (Arcane Striker?) There are some things a power source is simply better at, and another that they are less inclined to be.
I don't look at roles as a player, but the class itself. The role had something to do with it's design, but it isn't the whole picture. Role provides a snapshot of what the classes that take that role can do, and where they fit in a group. I don't play the Role, I make a character of a class, and go from there.
There are some classes I still don't know for certain what roles they have, it just isn't that important to me.
I could accept the non-existance of a Martial Controller if there were other gaps in the grid.
If there were no Arcane Defender, or if there were no Divine Striker, or something like that, I could accept it.
But the thing that bothers me, that makes ME, at least, feel that there MUST be a Martial Controller, is that it's the ONLY spot on the grid unfilled.
Redundancies are okay (Rogue/Ranger, Warlock/Sorcerer) but when there is only a single Missing Combo, it annoys me.
Martial has no Controller
Arcane fills all four roles
Divine fills all four roles
Primal fills all four roles
Psionics will probably fill all four roles
Ki is probably going to fill all four roles
Shadow WILL fill all four roles or I will eat a copy of Shadow Powers when it comes out.
I don't know about Elemental, but if I had to guess, I'd say it will fill all four roles as well.
So, I'll give it time.
But if we get all 8 of the originally anounced power sources out, and the only hole in the grid is Martial Controller, do you see why that concept bothers me?
Everyone can do Everything, except Martial, who cannot do area control. That's verbotten.
Everything else is okay.
No martial controllers. Nope. No way, no how.
Arcane healing, Okay.
Martial Healing, Okay.
Arcane Tanking, Okay.
Shadow Tanking, Okay.
Martial Controlling, NONONONONONONONONONO!!!!!11!!!1!!!eleven!!!!one!!!i!i!!!
It bothers me.
Let me illustrate it for you.
Better yet maybe someone who can really use battle field terrian. His exploits might be like dirty tricks and he could have multiple dailies like a wizards. For example he could pack a bag full of marbles when he would be going in doors and might select a different power if he was going to be outdoors..
Shadow WILL fill all four roles or I will eat a copy of Shadow Powers when it comes out.
I hope you enjoy books then because there is some speculation that Shadow will be missing a leader class.:P
I hope you enjoy books then because there is some speculation that Shadow will be missing a leader class.:P
naaa I beth if shadow is going to miss something it will be a Defender, the Necromancer is a perfect leader
Necromancer == Either Leader or Controller
IF Necro == Leader THEN Illusionist == Controller
Shadow Dancer == Striker
I think we, as a community, have shown several times over that the Shadow source is really easy to fill out.
I love a good book. Medium rare with BBQ sauce. Or saute'd with garlic butter.
If the "grid" was being followed, then there would not be overlapping, and the classes would not be so many, more likely be six (2 of each power source) in each PHB and none in the Setting's Player Guides.
Like there is no spoon in the Matrix, there is no grid here.
naaa I beth if shadow is going to miss something it will be a Defender, the Necromancer is a perfect leader
Necromancer screams controller, at least to me. The only reason that I can see to place a necromancer as a leader is grid filling.
Hexblade == Shadow Defender
Necromancer == Either Leader or Controller
IF Necro == Leader THEN Illusionist == Controller
Shadow Dancer == Striker
I think we, as a community, have shown several times over that the Shadow source is really easy to fill out.
I love a good book. Medium rare with BBQ sauce. Or saute'd with garlic butter.
You forgot one important thing here, the else statement for if the necromancer is a controller.
I was just looking over what they have made so far, and there is a striker, controller, leader, and defender for every power source except martial. Martial has no controller. I don't know what this class would be (chain master maybe?) But I hope to see a martial controller.
I like the suggestion I've seen floated of the Gladiator as a martial controller (yes, yes, I know all about the gladiator articles in Dragon...that does not invalidate the existence of a potential Gladiator class). Who says a controller has to be a ranged AoE monster to perform its role as a controller? In fact, the Druid looks like a trial run for a more melee-oriented controller, albeit a hybrid melee/ranged controller. I am playing a Predator Druid right now in LFR, and it is a fun close-range controller option.
A Gladiator could have weapon-based melee at-wills with control mechanics such as knocking prone, or dazing, slowing, immobilizing, and similar. Unlike the other martial builds, burst at-wills, encounters and dailies alike, with a burst equal to your melee reach with the weapon used, would be a common feature on such a character rather than an unusual toy to play with every now and then. They could also have melee versions of at-wills that punish the opponent for trying to get away from the controller, or get too close to the controller, thus controlling where they go on the battlefield.
Gladiators could have more exploits that draw enemies to it (pulls), or that force them to run away (pushes), or that simply maneuver enemies and allies alike around the battlefield with expert precision (slides), and ALL could easily be explained as purely martial-based abilities. No magic required whatsoever, lots of potential control mechanisms.
Gladiators would have beefier hit points than other controllers (likely even better than Druids, who are not overpowered with their extra hit points), and better low-armored defenses that do not require Dex or Int, albeit the former (Dex) could certainly be one of the secondaries that gets a build associated with it (and, again, Druids indicate this is a perfectly viable concept). Gladiators would also have the potential to deal slightly more damage with each attack, thanks to having their damage based on weapon damage.
In exchange for this, Gladiators would lose out on some incredibly important mechanics for existing controllers: They'd lose out on all those wicked ranged options, conjurations, and zones. Instead, they'd use stances or neo-stances (all those non-stance "for the rest of the encounter" dailies we see in PH2) to beef up their control aspects, mostly limiting their control options to close-range targets.
Essentially, Gladiators would be a primary Controller, with two builds going into secondary Defender (focusing more on being a somewhat "sticky" character with impressive control exploits), or secondary Leader (who focuses more on maneuvering yourself and allies around the battlefield, providing allies with buffs against whomever you are attacking, with impressive control exploits). A close combat combatant with potent dazes, stuns, knock prones, immobilizes, slows, and so on, often in bursts around him or her, would make for a very different feel overall than what we currently have.
Necromancer screams controller, at least to me. The only reason that I can see to place a necromancer as a leader is grid filling.
why? Controller mean terrain controll, low damage to large area, and so on
how the Necro is going to fill this role?
personally I see the necro being the master of life and death as the perfect leader, one that is able to manipulate necrotic energy to restore comrades (and undead), that can animate undead (like the wizard summonings short of rituals) and so on
while the illusionist is the perfect controller, with illusion that change the combat terrain and so on
and the Hexblade in my opinion would be more fitting as a striker than a defender
just my 2 cent
Leaders usually have more healing. That is one area that the Necromancer isn't gonna be strong in. This, in my way of thinking, suggests one of the other three roles.
stealing life from enemies was the only healing that wizard had in previous edition (vampiric hands.....) why the necromancer could not heal by damaging enemies?
maybe less healing but damage at the same time
or maybe to heal they need to hit an enemy with the
"Shadow tendrils of life stealing"
why? Controller mean terrain controll, low damage to large area, and so on
how the Necro is going to fill this role?
personally I see the necro being the master of life and death as the perfect leader, one that is able to manipulate necrotic energy to restore comrades (and undead), that can animate undead (like the wizard summonings short of rituals) and so on
while the illusionist is the perfect controller, with illusion that change the combat terrain and so on
and the Hexblade in my opinion would be more fitting as a striker than a defender
just my 2 cent
The necromancer is the master of undeath and death, not life and death. To alter the terrain he would summon hordes of undead to reach out from the ground grasping anyone who walks in the area. Or they put a small amount of shadow energy into the animus of their opponent causing the creature to have to fight to control of their own body. Unfortunatly I have to go otherwise I would come up with a few more, but really necromancy is about bringing life to an animus that is inactive, not about stopping an animus that is active from going inactive. If a person were to consistently recieve healing from a necromancer, it should turn them into an undead eventually at least from my understanding of the default fluff.
Cure light wounds used to be a necromancy spell.
So ergo, necromancers can cast healing spells.
Also, I have a bridge I'd like to sell. Anyone?
he could simply cast out the shadow of death from his companion
if a Warlord can give the opportunity to heal a Necromancer can do it so much better
Fighter: "Darn they hit me"
Necromancer: "Give me your sufference I'll send it back to our enemies" (cast necromancy healing)
Fighter: use healing surge thanks to the power of necromacy
Necromancer: cast another attack power....
1.) Some assassins retire to become spies.
2.) Why not just make an Mercenary class?
1.) Some assassins also retire to Florida and open up a deli, what does that have to do with anything?
2.) Why not indeed, but I'm talking about a Shadow Striker class called Assassin, which many people would dig.
Here is the question.
Why is there a need for a Martial Controller?
Play a Wizard, or any of the other Controller classes, it doesn't need to be a martial class.
The grid isn't there to fill in. There are, in fact, some classes that are in the grid twice or three times. (Arcane Striker?) There are some things a power source is simply better at, and another that they are less inclined to be.
We actually agree for once, this is amazing, or something terribly wrong has happened in the universe.
One person mentioned a ranger with a nine shot power, possible. But Ranger as a class hints more to the striker causing heavy damage while darting in and out as a main role.
You would have to find a class with another primary role.
Now would we see builds with Controller as a secondary role... Yes, I can see Warlords and Rangers with those builds easily. Not as a primary though.
Some evil would be good
1.) Some assassins also retire to Florida and open up a deli, what does that have to do with anything?
2.) Why not indeed, but I'm talking about a Shadow Striker class called Assassin, which many people would dig.
1.) And some are "retired" to Miami and spend a few seasons trying to get their old jobs back.
1.) Some assassins also retire to Florida and open up a deli, what does that have to do with anything?
2.) Why not indeed, but I'm talking about a Shadow Striker class called Assassin, which many people would dig.
1) The point being that he stops being an Assassin to become the Spy.
2) A Mercenary would have a far broader set of talents than being an opportunist killer in the dark.
Half the Dailies should be Summons that give him undead pets. Fully half the powers, across the board, should have some sort of party buffs, and buffs to his undead pets.
I agree that giving him a power like the Healing Word, Inspiring Word, Majestic Word, Etc feels a little out of flavor, but I think that they can, if they think about it for a while (and they still have a good 9 months to hash out the details to get it into PHB III) that the WotC Devs can come up with a healing power for necros that doesn't fell odd or tacked on.
So, I see Necromancer as a Shadow Leader with secondary Controller features.
Half the Dailies should be Summons that give him undead pets. Fully half the powers, across the board, should have some sort of party buffs, and buffs to his undead pets.
I agree that giving him a power like the Healing Word, Inspiring Word, Majestic Word, Etc feels a little out of flavor, but I think that they can, if they think about it for a while (and they still have a good 9 months to hash out the details to get it into PHB III) that the WotC Devs can come up with a healing power for necros that doesn't fell odd or tacked on.
I disagree. Leader is for classes like the Cleric or Warlord. The Necromancer is the opposite side of the coin. More than likely, the Necromancer is one of the other three roles, not a Leader.
So, I see Necromancer as a Shadow Leader with secondary Controller features.
Half the Dailies should be Summons that give him undead pets. Fully half the powers, across the board, should have some sort of party buffs, and buffs to his undead pets.
I agree that giving him a power like the Healing Word, Inspiring Word, Majestic Word, Etc feels a little out of flavor, but I think that they can, if they think about it for a while (and they still have a good 9 months to hash out the details to get it into PHB III) that the WotC Devs can come up with a healing power for necros that doesn't fell odd or tacked on.
One way a Leader necromancer could work is through the use of "temporary healing surges", which can be flavored as soul-stealing. Each time the necromancer (or one of his minions) kills an enemy, he gains a temporary healing surge which can be used to animate an undead minion. The "Ominous Word" power (as an example of a name that fits the theme) would differ from other leader powers of the same nature in that the necromancer must expend a temporary healing surge or one of his own healing surges to use it. In short, stealing life from others.
There could be both a ranged build focusing on more controller-like elements (INT/CHA) and a melee build focusing on ghoul touch-style powers, similar to the early levels of the dread necromancer (CHA/CON or INT/CON).
Necromancer could work just as well as a controller with leader-like elements, though. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to see two shadow controllers.
1) The point being that he stops being an Assassin to become the Spy.
2) A Mercenary would have a far broader set of talents than being an opportunist killer in the dark.
1.) Or he could retire from the spy game and branch into the assassin game, or retire and just golf for the rest of his life.
2.) Depends on the type of mercenary (this really is getting odd), but I see you now just want to split heirs and get the last word in, look, bottom line is, and let's not bring up needs again, we don't need any new classes, but people want them, and I want an Assassin class (shadow striker) and you don't, fine.
Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
1.) Or he could retire from the spy game and branch into the assassin game, or retire and just golf for the rest of his life.
2.) Depends on the type of mercenary (this really is getting odd), but I see you now just want to split heirs and get the last word in, look, bottom line is, and let's not bring up needs again, we don't need any new classes, but people want them, and I want an Assassin class (shadow striker) and you don't, fine.
Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
Nope. You're kinda frightening me with how much you want an Assassin class.
Seriously.:P
Nope. You're kinda frightening me with how much you want an Assassin class.
Seriously.:P
My loins are burning with desire!
…Maybe I should go to AA (Assassins Anonymous)?
I am surprised that the inclusion of the PP Assassin in the PHB and PHB2 hasn't quelled the want for this over the top class.
the bow is used by rangers for one sometimes two builds. makes me sad.
I JUST WANT MORE BOW LOVE!!!!
the bow is used by rangers for one sometimes two builds. makes me sad.
I think the bow is going to be dead for awhile. It really only lends itself to two western fantasy archetypes(Archer, Arcane Archer) and one eastern fantasy archetype(Holy Archer).... Actually we might see that last one in the PHB3 or PHB4 as a Ki Controller or Striker. Or perhaps a ranged Leader...
I think the bow is going to be dead for awhile. It really only lends itself to two western fantasy archetypes(Archer, Arcane Archer) and one eastern fantasy archetype(Holy Archer).... Actually we might see that last one in the PHB4 as a Ki Controller or Striker. Or perhaps a ranged Leader...
As I recall the Artificer uses bows for some powers, so not completely dead.
I am not the only one that sees the Assassin as a class that isn't a good fit for a group game such as Dungeons and Dragons.
I am surprised that the inclusion of the PP Assassin in the PHB and PHB2 hasn't quelled the want for this over the top class.
Yikes.
There's also an Angelic Avenger PP for the Cleric, yet they brought out the Avenger class…
So yeah, as I've said before on this topic, you should really quit while you're behind, it's getting embarrassing, for all of us.
*read KI
I am trying to read your response, but this forum barf that has happened makes it difficult. Hopefully, it will be fixed and returned to the former graphics soon.
Please don't, we're all really tired of you playing a twisted form of devil's advocate just for the sake of it, especially when we've all proven you are incorrect time and time again– please stop stirring it up and trying to get the last word in for the hell of it, it has gone beyond tiresome and tedious and now simply comes across as spam.
Thanking you in advance, for all of us.
That is my stance. I will say no more about it in this thread.
To be fair, it is a part of the speculation of what will or will not be in the PHB3. I am confident that a full class named "Assassin" is a doomed concept, and one that won't be missed, since there are three (thus far) Paragon Paths with the Assassin name. (One for the Avenger, btw)
That is my stance. I will say no more about it in this thread.
Good.
I have one thing to say to you... this.
To be fair, it is a part of the speculation of what will or will not be in the PHB3. I am confident that a full class named "Assassin" is a doomed concept, and one that won't be missed, since there are three (thus far) Paragon Paths with the Assassin name. (One for the Avenger, btw)
That is my stance. I will say no more about it in this thread.
Yeah, I think we should give up on this, basically, all your posts boil down to sticking your fingers in your ears and saying la-la-la-la-la-la-la-I'm not listening!
In this case: An assassin is always an evil hired killer, an assassin is always an evil hired killer, an assassin is always an evil hired killer…
…It's almost like that scene in the Shining…
"Rabbit season"
"Duck season"
"Rabbit season"
"Duck season"
"Duck season"
"Rabbit season"
Bel
Yeah, I think we should give up on this, basically, all your posts boil down to sticking your fingers in your ears and saying la-la-la-la-la-la-la-I'm not listening!
In this case: An assassin is always an evil hired killer, an assassin is always an evil hired killer, an assassin is always an evil hired killer…
…It's almost like that scene in the Shining…
An Assassin.
Loner.
Avoids combat.
Kills at night.
sticks to urban environments.
Being paid is only a part of the equation. It is a Group Killer, and a Game Stopper. He is not a group player and is more than likely has an alignment that is not with the group, or in a group that won't stay together long, likely having a fight/murder be the sign of parting ways.
Spies have integrity, and a purpose beyond the deaths of those he meets or investigates. A license to kill is given with the understanding that it would be used with temperance. They are not Assassins.
It is a narrow definition, and a concept that has no place in a group setting of heroes.
It seems that each PHB is gonna have the dark class, Warlock in the first, Avenger in the second. I maintain that the Shadow Striker (Ninja) is gonna be the dark class in PHB3.
I also think the Dromite is a good candidate for the small race for the next book, like the Halfling in the first and the Gnome in the second.
Playtest: Player's Handbook 3
Take one of PH3's new races for a spin, and send us your comments.
So looks like on the 20th we will know atleast one of the races for PHB3. Come on Elan!
Sorry, don't mean to do the same as them, but reading them randomly attacking someone for expressing his opinion for multiple posts in such an immature manner really ticked me off.
In more related news, i kinda doubt there will be an assasin, but who knows.
I'd also like to see Necromancer as a controller. Necromancer doesnt seem party buff-ish much to me. Maybe a controller with minor in leader, but not the other way around.
And racial playtest? must be some really complicated race...
I think the Necromancer being a Controller is a good guess. I don't see him as a leader simply because of the Healing aspect that a leader has. There are other reasons like being more in the back ground most of the time and that they tend to work in secret because of the qualms others have about them working with and raising the undead.
It is like why the Warlock is Arcane.
From Dragon Table of Content:
So looks like on the 20th we will know atleast one of the races for PHB3. Come on Elan!
Yeah, I'm definitely hoping for Elan.
And all Steely Dan and Darkless one have done in this thread is attack Thax and go "LALALALALALA there must be an Assassin."
This is essentially true, but there's no way to reason with ThaX, you should have seen the thread on Warlocks.
This is essentially true, but there's no way to reason with ThaX, you should have seen the thread on Warlocks.
Was I right? Dark theme, Arcane powered, and tied by pacts? The connection to the "Patron" is absent, instead the whole purpose of finding, communing and dealing with the source of the power is all done before the class is played.
I wonder if new pacts will be introduced in the PHB3 to go with the theme of the book.
ThaX doesn't like the concept of an assassin class. That's OK. We all get it. Really. Nobody has a problem with thaX's personal opinion on this issue. If PHB3 contains such a class, thaX has every right to never play it.
The problem is that he keeps presenting his opinions on what an assassin class must inevitably be (and the problems he thinks this would raise) as objective fact. And he ignores other people's attempts to point out that some of his arguments are based on false premises. For example, his argument that an assassin character will inevitably wreck her party is based on the (false) assumption that an assassin is always of evil alignment and either works alone or betrays and kills her temporary 'allies' once they are no longer useful. The assumptions that assassins only operate in urban environments and only at night are also wrong.
As I said in the other thread, a close relative of mine used to work for our country's government in a role that, in crude D&D-style class terms, would certainly be termed 'assassin'. None of thaX's assumptions mentioned in the previous paragraph were true of this person.
There are also literary examples of assassins who don't remotely fit thaX's limited view of what assassins are like. Robin Hobb's Farseer books are the first example that springs to mind.
Also, the contention in my sig is proved 100% correct once again.
It isn't that the Spy wouldn't be a super cool class, but that using the term Assassin would not be proper. Any class, NPC or monster can be an Assassin without ever having to have a specific class to go into.
how he use this deadly skill is up to the player
Any class, NPC or monster can be an Assassin without ever having to have a specific class to go into.
It isn't like you've ever had to have a class to be something. Look at the fighter. The definition of fighter is pretty much a person who fights. Every class pretty much falls into that category. That has never kept them from making a fighter class though. So just because you can have an assassin without having to take levels in an assassin class doesn't mean that you can't have an assassin class. After all every D&D character is a fighter, even those who don't have fighter levels.
I envision the assasin as a class very similar to a thief but with more powers that let him blend in shadows and get behind closed doors
how he use this deadly skill is up to the player
Might be why there is a Shadow Assassin PP?
Might be why there is a Shadow Assassin PP?
maybe, but why limit oneself to a mere pp when we could have the full assasin galore of a class?
with at wills and special class abilities
Aura of deadliness
Killing Stare
Everithing is a weapon
If I tell you I must kill you
A thousand faces
...and so on...
Some of the names listed sounds just like over reaching power grab that I am afraid of if the Assassin class comes to be. It would be the return of the over powered 1st edition version, updated and overloaded with powers that are outside the scope of what an Assassin is.
See above posts. I shall not repeat it.
Some of the names listed sounds just like over reaching power grab that I am afraid of if the Assassin class comes to be. It would be the return of the over powered 1st edition version, updated and overloaded with powers that are outside the scope of what an Assassin is.
1st edition? why thanks
take a look at my avatar ;)
anyhow the point is that there is the space for an assassin class in the shadow power source both for historical reasons (it's here from 1st edition) and because I think it can be done in a nice way (a different kind of stealthy striker)
but we will just have to wait
1st edition? why thanks
take a look at my avatar ;)
anyhow the point is that there is the space for an assassin class in the shadow power source both for historical reasons (it's here from 1st edition) and because I think it can be done in a nice way (a different kind of stealthy striker)
but we will just have to wait
Assassins are not nice. Not even in the Discworld Novels.
What your thinking of is a Ninja.
Assassins are not nice. Not even in the Discworld Novels.
What your thinking of is a Ninja.
well obviously if I want a mr nice guy I play a Paladin
and a Ninja is just an assasin in a pajama ;)
It is another point of contention to me. There should be no such thing as a 1st level assassin. They are skilled killers, not a beginning young pup out to take on the world. A 1st level Assassin is a dead one.
See above posts. I shall not repeat it.
Some of the names listed sounds just like over reaching power grab that I am afraid of if the Assassin class comes to be. It would be the return of the over powered 1st edition version, updated and overloaded with powers that are outside the scope of what an Assassin is.
Overpowered 1st ed. version?
I played a 1st ed. Assassin to Prime (13th lvl) and it sure didn't seem overpowered to me.
My biggest advantage in game was that no-one knew I was an assassin. I usually went disguised as a thief or fighter a couple of levels lower than my actual level.
Bel
On Assassins:
Actually, a Ninja is an assassin. But with more options and builds that aren't necessarily as hashish-eating.
Notably, there are many grades of Assassins. These grades are fleshed out in the Assassins article. And with Paragon Paths for more specialised ones. But they're all Assassins to the end. A Ninja is an Assassin, but also a spy, a user of special powers that are often shadowy, elemental, or ki-inspired, but I would greatly push towards a shadowy nature as being the core, especially with the illusions and death focus of the Shadow Power Source. They also never mention the class name of "True Assassins." They could be just Assassins, or they could be Ninjas, or they could be something else. But most likely, even if they are called Assassins, they'll be quite a bit Ninja-influenced. Because an "Assassin" class (one that is Shadow Powered, at least), unfortunately, only has one type of build. I'm afraid that thaX is probably right on this one that Ninjas are the Shadow Striker and that they are what the Assassins article was referring to.
Actually, a Ninja is an assassin. But with more options and builds that aren't necessarily as hashish-eating.
Notably, there are many grades of Assassins. These grades are fleshed out in the Assassins article. And with Paragon Paths for more specialised ones. But they're all Assassins to the end. A Ninja is an Assassin, but also a spy, a user of special powers that are often shadowy, elemental, or ki-inspired, but I would greatly push towards a shadowy nature as being the core, especially with the illusions and death focus of the Shadow Power Source. They also never mention the class name of "True Assassins." They could be just Assassins, or they could be Ninjas, or they could be something else. But most likely, even if they are called Assassins, they'll be quite a bit Ninja-influenced. Because an "Assassin" class (one that is Shadow Powered, at least), unfortunately, only has one type of build. I'm afraid that thaX is probably right on this one that Ninjas are the Shadow Striker and that they are what the Assassins article was referring to.
I also see that there is a planar progresssion, beginning with the Astral and the deities, but not very interactive with the plane itself. Possibly due to the as yet unknown influence of the Primal Spirits, while the most interaction is with the Feywild, very much in tune with the Primal spirits.
Then in PHB 2 we see the Primal Spirits and explore their world, as you said beyond society. This pretty much covers those planes.
So PHB 3 should indeed lead us to further realms, both physical as in the Shadowfell and personal, Ki and Psionics, here my guess will be that the Shadow power source will be fully realized to leave PHB 4 open for the Elemental source with the bridges being Ki and Psionc classes.
Bel
What 4 Shadow classes would entail, however, is that Shadar-kai, one of my favourite races, would get a fuller-than-full write-up, just like Warforged is getting in the Eberron Player's Guide. Shadar-kai got a write up in Dragon, like Warforged, but they can't leave it out of the races choices when they deal with Shadow. If 4 Shadow classes are together, than Shadar-kai will be a race, as will Dark Ones (to follow up on Halflings and Gnomes). If they are apart, I don't see Shadar-kai getting their book-format write-up until PH4.
Bel
That sort of game would actually be an AMAZINGLY fun setting to play. One that puts heavy emphasis on the planes, and shifting between them, and much more emphasis on the World and its Echos than on the World Axis planes. Githyanki and Githzerai, in that case, wouldn't have to come into the mix until PH4, when elemental, ki, and psionics are finished up, and the core setting could be looking towards the Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos and the final showdown between the Gods and the Primordials.
What is this setting then? It's not quite Planescape, which would necessitate heavy Astral and Elemental travel, and be focused on Sigil. This would be a game about the balance of the three worlds and their Crossing-Places. Perhaps the worlds are in shift with each other temporally; thus the Feywild is caught in the splendorous past, and the Shadowfell in the apocalyptic future, but now the worlds are on a collision course for each other, since the balance of souls (moving from their entrance into the world via the Feywild to their exit from the world via the Shadowfell) has been thrown off. This would renvision the Feywild as the font of life as well, and put it in deep connection with the Primal Spirits. Actually, I can see the Primal Spirits and Vestiges both having heavy Shadowfell connections as well: A Horned King leading a Wild Hunt of Ghosts from a Shadowrift upon the natural world, etc.
Primal would be at the heart of it, but Psionics and Ki start to give humanity some control over the very nature of their minds/hearts and their souls, and Shadow gives us a good Shadowfell Power Source to counterbalance the Feywilds Arcane leanings. I say leanings because you don't need to be from the Shadowfell or Feywild to utilise those power sources. The denisens of them just use them quite a bit, as well as the Primal Spirits. Divine would be somewhat downplayed, but they may have a hand in the off-balance of souls, since they draw souls to their immortal dominions. Epic Heroes could actually find themselves a part of the problem since by their very nature Epic Destinies grant immortality, which would be a big no-no to the movement of spirits. Perhaps all souls eventually reincarnate, and the world in now running out of souls to reincarnate due to rising population levels and decreasing soul counts. Could wars and population holocausts be the only solution to end the rising infertility and the imminent chaos destruction that would come of the collision of these three worlds? Could the chaos open way for the Primordials to pull their hidden Ace of Spades, and wage war once again on the Gods? Could it leave room for Mad entities to slip through the gaps and crossing=places and enter the world from the Far Realm beyond the distant nebulae?
This is a really cool idea you've got me going on. I'm going to use this.
It's also a very viable alternative to Dark Sun as 2010's setting. Something new would be very fun too. It could also simply be the 2010 core setting metaplot, leading into a second series of Core Modules, or maybe even Points of Light Novels.
I like the past-present-future idea as well only I would add in a little s-f and have the feywild be home to dinosaurs, lost civilizations of the creator races, etc. The shadowfell would perhaps have a star spanning civilization or two created by various races, Shifters in Space!
Must get my hands on a copy of Practical Planetology from Spelljammer for other planetary body creation.
Bel
There's this amazing/disgusting/awe-inspiring Japanese artist who envisions a future where we have fully been integrated into the world; i.e. technology and nature have co-evolved into some new form of matrix. It's a very dark world, but has an odd (or sick, YMMV) beauty to it. Tetsumi Kudo he was, though he died an untimely death back in 1990 (having a 40 year career). His art incorporates bodily imagery with oil/toxic waste and plant/animal growth. Phallic objects inching along like caterpillars and then undergoing metamorphosis into butterflies. Noses growing like mushrooms out of the ground. Ears rising out of toxic waste and flowering into all sorts of beautiful flowers, dripping with petroleum (rather than nectar). Dicebox dark chambers (signifying random chance and the power of evolution's unpredictability) containing flourescent plant and fungal growth. And finally skulls with multicoloured yarn growing for long lengths and entangling like vines. He called for a "new ecology" where man and nature were not opposing forces, and was heavily influenced by Cybernetics. His world-view is not necessarily my own for various ecological and ethical reasons, but he enthralled me with his art and vision, and it actually has significant overlaps with the psychological and cultural views of the Shadar-kai, and also of the dark world I wanted to paint as one that went down the path of the future, as opposed to one lost in the past and it's ancient splendours and one that refuses to learn from the past or care about the future (thus, the Three Core Worlds of my setting).
The cybernetic technology-and-nature incorporation approach works really well for a futuristic/pseudo-sci-fi setting that incorporates shadow, psionics, and other power sources. Artificer and Warforged definitely fit in here. A Warforged Earth Warden would be an especially interesting development because not only does it play Warforged to ability score type, it also mixes natural with technological themes. Note that we replace pure technology with magical technology for the sake of fitting into DnD (like Eberron does).
If you're interested, check out Tetsumi Kudo's artwork on the Walker Museum website. Here's a link. Because some of the artwork has definite sexual imagery, I won't direct you straight to the gallery, but you can get there from a link right under the description.
http://visualarts.walkerart.org/detail.wac?id=4388&title=Current%20Exhibitions
I like some of the speculation you have, but I have only three things to comment on...
Soulknife. I, also, think it would be a better fit in the Ki power source. Some of the names you had are great, but the Souledge just has a nice ring to it. Push effects and deflecting ranged attacks should be a part of this class, as well as having specific weapon options for the class to bring into being, with powers that have those blades in mind. Man, I hope Wizards is looking into this.
The Wilder is Psi's version of the wild mage, and really has no place in this new edition. If it is brought back, it will be nothing like the class of the same name from the previous edition, either one of them. I would rather see a telekinetic class, one that moves things and uses implements as weapons, ranged or melee, without having to hold on to them.
The Shadow power source might only have two classes this time around. I believe that the caster portion of the set will be either split or pushed back to the next PHB. So, the Ninja and the shadow(caster/dancer/weaver) type class. I think the latter will be more physical, leaving the Illusionist to be introduced in the later PHB4. The Necromancer will not heal, unless you count the siphon from target to self. The Controller aspect of the Necromancer is more likely, though one of the other two roles may be used to get the caster class away from dominating the Controller role. He won't be a leader.
So to put it in a list for Shadow.
PHB3
Ninja
Shadow(thing)
PHB4
Necromancer
Illusionist
The Necromancer will not heal, unless you count the siphon from target to self. The Controller aspect of the Necromancer is more likely, though one of the other two roles may be used to get the caster class away from dominating the Controller role. He won't be a leader.
It could very well be that the Shadow power source will not have a leader type, it does not seem like a very helpful sort of power.
If Shadow is in PH3 then the Necromancer will be there, it has a huge following of fans.
I locically see the Shadowdancer, Ninja and Magic Assassin being the same class, which might just be called Assassin.
hard to say if Ninja/Assassin or the Illusionist/Beguiler will be other PH3 shadow class
I would like to see Hexblade rencarnated as the new Blackguard the forth Shadow class; uses powerful aura creating dailies and are masters of affliction
Assassin: striker
Beguiler: controller
Blackguard: defender (afterall a mark is sort of like a hex)
Necromancer: controller or leader
The Shadow Dancer, in my mind, has a distinguished enough of a concept to warrant a separate class from the Ninja, and might be a part of whatever the Shadowcaster (name forthcoming) class would be coming out, or even might be a part of the Illusionist.
Beguiler vs. Illusionist name. Illusionist wins, the class was already mentioned by Wizards before.
Beguiler vs. Illusionist name. Illusionist wins, the class was already mentioned by Wizards before.
Source?
If they're going to have class called Illusionist then I don't see why they wouldn't have a class called Psion or Psionicist
As stated above, the Assassin name for a class is not needed. Anyone can kill for money no matter what class they are. I would hope the Ninja name is used instead.
samantics, you could say the same for lots of the classes. it's a classic name that covers alot of bases
samantics, you could say the same for lots of the classes. it's a classic name that covers alot of bases
*Nods* Plus, the name Ninja invokes only a Japanese look/feel. Assassin is a universal one, any culture can have a Assassin in it.
I'll quote him because he very eloquently explains the idea.
I have just (as in literally right this minute) thought of a possible shadow leader class that doesn't require the other player characters to suffer the moral outrage of being healed through necromancy:
The Dreamweaver.
If anyone has read Trudi Canavan's Age of the Five trilogy, dreamweavers heal people both physically and psychologically through manipulating their dreams and their subconscious minds. Some of them are also inspirational leaders (though at the time of the novels they are a persecuted minority and their leaders are all dead or in hiding - including hiding from themselves with constructed personae and memories).
In D&D terms, this could be a manipulation of the 'shadow-selves' or 'dream-selves' of their allies. The dreamweaver sews up the wounds in your shadow and that healing transfers to your physical form. Or he steps into your dreaming mind and heals your wounds from there. He could also have some significant controller leanings by doing the opposite to enemies - making them attack each other rather than his allies or inflicting psychic damage by bringing their subconscious fears to the surface as waking nightmares.
Canavan's dreamweavers also don't get along with gods and their worshippers at all well, which could be a nice fluff twist for the class. I can see a rivalry (friendly or otherwise) between the party's dreamweaver and cleric, just like the conflict between priests and dreamweavers in the novels.
Another twist (and one reason for their conflict with the gods in the novels) is that a sufficiently powerful dreamweaver becomes so good at healing that they are effectively immortal, being able to rewind their own aging process at will. That nicely leads into a paragon path and epic destiny exclusive to the class, as well as giving the Raven Queen (at least) a reason to dislike them (hence ready-made plot hooks!)
The role of the Dreamweaver might suggest a different power source, but I would put it very much so into the realm of the psychological relationship between our Shadow aspect and our self, and the need to confront it, and either reconcile the shadow or destroy it to move forward. I really, really like this idea. Makes for a really interesting class, and one that could play out in different builds dealing with different forms of the Dream - i.e. forcing nightmares on others, or healing in a dream-analysis psychological sort of way.
*Nods* Plus, the name Ninja invokes only a Japanese look/feel. Assassin is a universal one, any culture can have a Assassin in it.
*Nods* the word Assassin should not be sold so short as a hired killer, they're not just people who kill other people for money
They're people who are very very good at killing other people and looking very very sexy while doing it
*snip*
4th Ed seems to be embracing the assassin action, what with that recent Dragon article and this True Assassin being mentioned. The assassin does not mean evil hired killer in 4th Ed D&D.
Please don’t, we’re all really tired of you playing a twisted form of devil’s advocate for the sake of it, especially when we’ve all proven you are incorrect time and time again– please stop stirring it up and trying to get the last word in for the hell of it, it has gone beyond tiresome and tedious and now simply comes across as spam.
There’s also an Angelic Avenger PP for the Cleric, yet they brought out the Avenger class…
I’m hoping for the Assassin as the shadow striker, using shadow to move and strike from them. While the Ninja could be a good choice, they have a lot of cultural baggage, and they have a legacy of using Ki, so I know a lot of people hate it, but the Ninja could very well be a Ki class.
Just my speculations for the day, nothing more.
I think you’re getting needs and wants confused, you don’t want an assassin class, I do.
This is your hope, please don’t spread you desire as fact to the people on these boards, we could easily have a full-blown Assassin class in 4th Ed, people.
You seem to have a slightly myopic view of an Assassin, especially as it pertains to D&D, and especially 4th Ed, they might assassinate criminals, evil agents or devils or what have you, is the Avenger automatically considered evil, no, but they are also an assassin, just a divine one, so we could easily have a Shadow one: Assassin.
I know you’re going to bring up Ninja, and that is also a possibility for a Shadow Striker, but they could easily turn out to be Ki.
Assassin/Avenger/Hassassin/Holy Slayer/Ninja etc.
To you, these are not facts; they are more of your wild conjecture.
Okay, this is getting silly at this point; honour among these thieves my bottom (and the Batman thing is embarrassing).
For you, I think this edition needs rocking Assassin class.
We don’t know if there will or won’t be an Assassin class, please don’t lie to people.
You don’t think it’s needed (I would love to see a delightful Assassin class), and while we’re talking about needs, we don’t really need any other classes aside from Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard, everything else is gravy.
I know you hate it, but I could see the Assassin being a Shadow Striker, using shadows to move around and strike from them etc.
For you maybe, we may get an actual Assassin class, we don’t know yet, which I would totally dig, I’m hoping for Shadow Striker.
As much as some people hate it, I could see the Ninja as a Ki class (striker or controller), it also has legacy to it (for what that’s worth).
So I think the Assassin could be a Shadow Striker.
I think you should quit while you’re behind on your anti-Assassin campaign/crusade on these boards.
Yeah, I think we should give up on this, basically, all your posts boil down to sticking your fingers in your ears and saying la-la-la-la-la-la-la-I’m not listening!
In this case: An assassin is always an evil hired killer, an assassin always an evil hired killer, an assassin is always an evil hired killer…
…it’s almost like that scene in The Shining…"
This allows for other classes to add something unusual to their abilities.
I loved playing my 1e assassin, had some really legendary kills, but it was a very limited class. The pseudo-class allows for ranger snipers, rogue infiltrators, wizard spell slayers, etc. As for the True Assassins from the Dragon article only the title of the sidebar was capitalized, so it will probably be the shadow striker, whatever they name it.
And on that note, more guesses, with some study behind them.
SHADOW
Leader=Necromancer, based on the Dread Necromancer Heroes of Horror
Defender=Shadowblade, based on the PrC of that name ToM
Controller=Illusionist, mixed with a little Shadow Caster ToM
Striker=Ninja, shedding the Asian and Ki overtones and mixed with a little Shadowdancer PrC DMG1
Bel
If you ever killed someone for the promise of profit in any way shape of form (including XP) then you might just be an assassin.
Player characters = Assassins
There you have it. unless you left behind the treasure, & told the DM you will not be accepting the XP for the kill. Most of us have been playing Assassins for years. Your class actually determines how you justify your pathological need to kill for profit. So you see, we've all been playing assassins for from the start.
Now not everyone kills for XP & treasure, some actually kill for fun. These players are not assassins, they are simply serial killers.
XP is Murder! Stop the slaughter of innocent NPCs!!
Leader=Necromancer, based on the Dread Necromancer ToM
Defender=Shadowblade, based on the PrC of that name ToM
Controller=Illusionist, mixed with a little Shadow Caster ToM
Striker=Ninja, shedding the Asian and Ki overtones and mixed with a little Shadowdancer PrC DMG1
Um, wasn't the Dread Necromancer in Libris Mortis(LM), not Tome of Magic(ToM)?
I'd rather have the class name be Shadowcaster than Illusionist.
I'd like to see some elements of the Duskblade mixed in with the Shadowblade.
Can't argue with Necromancer.
My guess is that the power sources we will see in the PH3 will be Ki (confirmed by the monk playtest in May) and psionics (because of the concepts prominence in Eberron, the 2009 setting)
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
I'd rather have the class name be Shadowcaster than Illusionist.
/QUOTE]
Slapping the word 'caster' at the end of the power source does not a cool class name make.
Um, wasn't the Dread Necromancer in Libris Mortis(LM), not Tome of Magic(ToM)?
I'd rather have the class name be Shadowcaster than Illusionist.
I'd like to see some elements of the Duskblade mixed in with the Shadowblade.
Can't argue with Necromancer.
Actually it was Heroes of Horror, not Tome of Magic, which I have corrected. Libris Mortis contained the True Necromancer, a truly creepy PrC.
I went with classic names for the classes for what the devs call stickiness.
I could see some Duskblade in the Shadowblade, they could use the duskblade name and I'd go for it. But the shadowblade is the basis of my idea for the class.
Bel
I don't know what a Shadowblade is,but it has the word Shadow in it which would be redundant, what did they do?
And could someone remind me what the Shadowcaster's deal was?
And could someone remind me what the Shadowcaster's deal was?
The name seems fairly straight forward. They are people who are able to cast shadows. Duh.:P
Shadowblades are martial combatants with an innate link to
shadow. While some deliberately study the arts of shadow, most develop their abilities instinctively, making them more akin to shadowdancers than shadowcasters. Those who master the arts of the unseen weapon become warriors with few equals. Their ability to manipulate darkness and shadow
enhances their martial skills, allowing them to target weak points, land blows that should not strike true, and even attack foes who are paces away.
You employ almost equal amounts of stealth and brute force. You can work primarily as a front-line fighter, but your prowess in sneaking and surprise make you a better guerrilla and finesse fighter. As your abilities of stealth improve, you become a viable scout, although your need to keep your weapon unsheathed might occasionally interfere with remaining unnoticed.
Shadowcaster was basic class introduced in ToM.
The shadowcaster understands the true, primal power of darkness, attunes herself to the Plane of Shadow, and learns great shadow mysteries the equal of any mundane spell.
These dark casters are workers of alien magic, possessing an occult understanding of the world and magic that even other spellcasters find disturbing. They are masters of a dark power—and perhaps, as some worry, its servants as well.
Bel
Lets me give an explanation of my aversion.
The second edition Assassin, where ever it was published, had some powers that overstepped all the other classes, and made the Assassin the most desired munchkin class ever made. The PrC in the 3.0/3.5 edition has instance kills, and is a rogue's work around to stack their sneak attack.
Thus far, this Assassin PP's are in line with the power structure for this new edition. If a "full Assassin" is put out, one of two things will be apparent. Either it will break the balance of the classes, or it won't be the class the Munchkin player wants, and it will be forever be the "pretender" Assassin. Don't deny this, it happened in second edition.
I made a point earlier that I will repeat here. An Assassin should be a skilled killer, one that isn't just starting out for a life of "adventure." A 1st level Assassin is a dead one. This is why PP and ED are a much better solution to having Assassin skills than a limited class that does not bring much to the game.
Will we get the Assassin class? I believe Wizards has learned their lesson in this regard, and hopefully it isn't to be, just as it wasn't in the previous edition. (It was a PrC, mostly NPC stuff) Will most players be content with the PP's and ED's named Assassin that is available, or will be available in the future? Most likely.
You want a munchkin class, or a Spy character with the class name "Assassin" while I don't want the headache of saying "No" to my players when they want to play an unheroic class.
You really think I am not listening?
The Illusionist was talked about about the same time as the Necromancer, might even be within the same article. I don't have DDi, so I can not do a search. Both classes was talked about in a shadow power source thread. I still think that these classes will be pushed back to the PHB4, having the more physical Shadow classes be in the PHB3. Ninja, and a Shadow Dancer type class. I think a new name will be used for the later, combining some of the shadow classes from the Previous edition without the clunky mechanics added in.
Part of the reason I think this is that the Psi classes will mostly be caster like in design.
I think most have agreed here that the format will continue to be 4/2/2 for the classes.
While this is a big post, I would like to repeat my idea that the Dromite will be the third small race in a PHB (Halfling in 1, Gnome in 2)
My 2 cents:
PHBIII
Monk • Ki Striker
Samurai • Ki Defender
Ninja • Shadow Striker
Illusionist • Shadow Controller
Psion • Psychic Controller
Empath/Telepath • Psychic Leader
Kineticist • Psychic Striker
???/Soulknife • Psychic Defender
PHBIV
Wu-jen • Ki Controller
Shugenja • Ki Leader
Conjurer • Elemental Controller
Blackguard • Elemental Defender
??? • Elemental Striker
Necromancer • Elemental or Shadow Leader
??? • Elemental or Shadow Leader
Hexblade • Shadow Defender
Why? IMHO...
1) ...like wizard's specialization schools splitted in various classes, also the psion's disciplines could be splitted; I mentioned kineticist and telepath, but all the 4 psionics classes could be relative to a specific 3rd ed. psion discipline.
2) ...we have the Shadow Assassin PP, and you want also a Shadow PS Assassin?! A bit too redundant. So, Shadow Striker = Ninja, who also fits the oriental feeling of PHBIII. Also, in PHBIII there is no need to have balanced roles, as it was in PHB and PHBII, so no leader exept for psychic one.
3) ...in 4e Demons are Elemental creatures. So, Elemental PS will not cover the four classic elements, but it will be related to Demons. Then, Blackguard, the Conjurer mentioned in some designer's blog or whatever (connected to an efreet), maybe also the Necromancer, and who knows what else.
PS: there is also a contrast between Divine and Elemental PS: Paladin/Blackguard, Invoker/Conjurer*. Maybe every Elemental class will be an anti-divine class of the same role.
*check the actual meaning of the term "invocation" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invocation and see that it could fit well, both for the mood of the Invoker class and the concept of elemental PS with anti-divine classes like the Conjurer.
It doesn't matter what the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Edition version did or didn't do. That is irrelevant. All that will matter is what the 4th Edition version, if it comes to pass, does.
You really think I am not listening?
Of course not, and man, assassin is getting serious love in this edition, even that new bard PP, Grave Caller, are "assassin-bards", and part of a "shadowy organization". Not to mention of course the whole article dedicated to assassination (and mention of "True Assassins"), so let's face it, you've lost your crusade against assassins (and all things therein) being a PC available option (and we have the Avenger etc).
Whatever the assassin was in pervious editions, which has been all 3, has nothing to do with how it will be implemented in 4th Ed, I'm just thinking it could be a slick little Shadow Striker that uses shadows to move and strike from, that is all (and of course not broken, just nice and balanced like all 4th Ed classes seem to be so far).
You say the name assassin isn't needed, the name fighter for a class really isn't needed, we could call it warrior, so that has no bearing on anything.
And as for Ninja, I'm no expert, but aren't they simply Japanese assassins with a nifty costume? And as for your wants, which is all this really boils down to, I don't want a class named Shadowdancer, it makes me think of some fruit rabbit from Cirque De Soleil mincing around an encounter and doing jazz-hands at the end.
Well anyway, I know this will all be wasted on you because you're obviously playing a bizarre game on this thread, I just wish I knew the rules (inside joke) so I could join in on the laugh.
it makes me think of some fruit rabbit from Cirque De Soleil mincing around an encounter and doing jazz-hands at the end.
Please explain the term 'fruit rabbit', because as it is I find this statement offensive.
Though it's fairly obvious what the intent is, and even if its supposed to mean something entirely different, the remainder of the statement is still pretty offensive.
Please explain the term 'fruit rabbit', because as it is I find this statement offensive.
Though it's fairly obvious what the intent is, and even if its supposed to mean something entirely different, the remainder of the statement is still pretty offensive.
Relax, I'm a scorching hot pre-op transsexual, so no offence is intended.
I don't remember much about Duskblade, but isn't the Swordmage pretty much the same concept?
Why does everyone think this?
Having played both, the answer is, beyond "Gish" the concept is not the same.
The Duskblade was a Chainmail wearing Gish, who received mostly blaster spells, with a truly tiny amount of teleportation. (Dimension Door, Dimension Hop (something like 50 feet.), and maybe one other.)
I think I answered this point earlier in this thread.
While I don't share the same sentiments on the role as thaX (assassins must be evil aligned and PC assassins are Group Killers), I do agree that I don't see there being an "Assassin" core class. I think we'll continue to see treatment of it in PP (Rogue with Shadow Assassin and Avenger with Zealous Assassin). The main reason is that assassin is far too much a broad term, and that pretty much any class can be an assassin. It's not so much a set of abilities as it is a mind set, and I think that's a point WoTC has be subtly trying to make...
That being said...
I think we'll see a 4/2/2 spread for PHIII, but I cannot say for certain which power source will be given priority, although my hunch is actually Shadow, as the roles are easier to fill. I doubt, however, that Ninja will see treatment as a shadow class, as, IMO, it seems to fit more thematically with the Ki power source. I understand that the basic assumption is that Shadow = Stealth, but let's keep in mind that stealth is not necessarily the province of Shadow. Arcane, Divine, and Marital all have powers related to stealth, and I'm certain Primal does as well. So really, is it really that far of a stretch that the Ki power source would be capable of stealth type effect?
I also don't see Blackguard as a Shadow class, as I think that'll probably end up a PP for either Paladin or Fighter...
So my thoughts on what possible classes we'll see...
Shadow (I don't see there being a leader role here, as had been stated, Shadow doesn't really lend itself thematically to helpful abilities.)
Necromancer (Controller)
Beguiler/Illusionist (Controller)
Hexblade/Duskblade (Defender, possibly Striker)
Shadowdancer (Striker)
Psionic
Telepath/Empath (Leader)
Psychic Warrior (Defender)
Lurk (Striker)
Something similar to Elocater (Controller, can't think of a proper name for the class... sorry)
Ki
Monk (Striker)
Soulknife (Striker)
Samurai (Defender, maybe Leader, though I could possibly see this ending up as a PP for fighters or paladins)
Ninja (Striker)
Unless, of course, they introduce the Scurvy power source.
Thanks for the refreasher Bel.
Seems like the Shadowcaster was somewhat integrated into Warlock(forbidden magic), whats left of them could be integrated into Necromancer so that the class is not just limited to bones and ghosts
Shadowblade sounds like something that could fit under the Assassin blanket. And I don't know about you guys but I think Ninja and Shadowdancer would make perfect Assassin paragon paths.
In the 3.5 Player's Handbook it give two character themes for the Hexblade; the Darkhunter and the Tormented Champion, I think they show that a non-heroic class can be somewhat heroic and I think the Darkhunter would be good to base an Assassin PP on
And I firmly believe that Blackguard should have it's own class; the dark knight has always been a classic archetype, thow in some hexing and aura powers to make em unique.
I want:
4 Shadow
2 Ki
2Psionic
I think what we will actually get is:
4 Psionic
2 Shadow
2 Ki
I want the former (mainly because I just read Skullduggery Pleasant: The Faceless Ones) because shadow is cool. My favorite 3e book was Tome of Magic just because of the shadow stuff. I couldn't care less about whether they were weak or not, give me a shadowcaster, a ninja, a necromancer (or as they really should be called necromagus [pm me if you want the long reason why {even though i don't see why anyone should care}]), and an illusionist over any four classes that you could come up with from the ki and psionic power sources. That doesn't mean that I don't like them (I'd be okay with a monk instead of a ninja for instance, but no other substitute) and I love the concepts behind them, but you can do so much more with shadow.
Examples:
Shadow. The substance that eclipses the world and hides the creatures lurking upon it. One wrong turn in the corridors of life and you may become lost in it. Be wary. Don't let them get you.
Moving like a snake, it will come lurking out of the darkness, rending flesh and mind. This is not quite as bad as its method though. You will never see it coming. No sight to judge with, no vision to protect yourself. Just fear, eroding the mind.
This was the premise for one of my illusionists in 3.5 who summoned creatures to scare the living daylights out of people in the dark. When he got turned into a vampire and got taken on by the DM as an NPC he became the BBEG of a dungeon filled with illusions and traps that made Tomb of Horrors look domestic. That also points out that Tomb of Horrors is another example of brilliantly done shadow.
How about this?
The body lay on the floor. Not moving at all. It didn't need to for it was dead. Their was only one wound, a black smoking hole right through the centre of its heart. If you looked at the smoke from a distance you might have thought that the smoke came from a burn... but you'd be wrong. Upon closer inspection you would probably find that instead this coiling, tentacled smoke actually apearred to be made of something heavier than smoke. Shadow. As you look over the face of the corpse you see its eyes closed. Something catches your eye and you look at its wrists pulsing with shadow where instead there should be blood and veins. You look back to its face only to see two pitch black orbs either side of its nose. It had awoken.
That was trying to demenstrate the shadow power of a necromacer (necromagus).
Other good examples that show the reasons why i think that shadow should be the 4 one in PHB3, are the Skullduggery Pleasant books (I don't know if they are out in America but to anyone who can get their hands on a copy they are an absolutely stunning read for anyone, any age {or really anyone over the age of ten}) and the library Doctor Who episode as examples of how shadow can phisically hurt someone. To show the necromancy (necromagusy?) power of shadow or the fear or phsycic damage just watch a good horror movie and think how you feel afterwards.
Anyway, I have probably been rambling for too long.
TFL
Illusionist/Beguiler
Role: Shadow Controller
Key Stats: Intelligence, Charisma, Dexterity
The sneaky, subtle mage who manipulates the power of shadow to befuddle his foes. May focus on creating illusions that fool enemies and manipulate their actions (such as a 'distracting image' that draws enemies toward it or a 'frightening image' that draws enemies away). Will probably have access to some more 'thief-like' skills, like Stealth, Thievery, Bluff, and the like.
Necromancer
Role: Shadow Controller (or Leader)
Key Stats: Intelligence, Wisdom, Strength
The master of undeath, manipulating the power of shadow and death. Will focus largely on summoning, perhaps with walls representing large hordes of undead. May have a ranged build focusing on shadow blasts and necrotic damage, and a melee build (similar to early levels of the dread necromancer) focusing on ghoul touch-style "touch of death" attacks or taking on aspects of the living dead.
Assassin/Ninja/Nightblade
Role: Shadow Striker
Key Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom/Charisma
The "true assassin" mentioned in the recent assassin article. Focuses on manipulating the shadows and supernatural abilities to get the drop on his enemies. May inherit aspects of the "shadow hand" disclipine from 3.5E, as well as various assassin/ninja-type powers.
Hexblade
Role: Shadow Defender
Key Stats: Strength, Constitution, Intelligence/Charisma
Not sure how this would turn out. May combine properties of the hexblade/duskblade/blackguard classes.
although I like the name Blackguard more than Hexblade, eventhough I liked the Hexblade class better than the Blackguard PrC; I just think we should try to avoid having too many classes that use sword/blade/knife in the name.
And would imagine the Blackguard's would have the power of calamity/doom/hex/affliction, they would basically specialize in debuffs much like the Hexblades did.
The basic problem with your assumption, thaX, is that a class has an inherent personality attached to it. A class is just a set of skills and abilities, nothing more.
This is part of the problem. The Assassin skills are limited, and require more than a first level character to implement right. It is a narrow concept and a limited mindset to build a character class from. Anyone, from a pheasant to a king, can be an Assassin without the need of a specified class. Accept money, kill target. Simple.
the quote for those that want to read itOf course not, and man, assassin is getting serious love in this edition, even that new bard PP, Grave Caller, are "assassin-bards", and part of a "shadowy organization". Not to mention of course the whole article dedicated to assassination (and mention of "True Assassins"), so let's face it, you've lost your crusade against assassins (and all things therein) being a PC available option (and we have the Avenger etc).
Whatever the assassin was in pervious editions, which has been all 3, has nothing to do with how it will be implemented in 4th Ed, I'm just thinking it could be a slick little Shadow Striker that uses shadows to move and strike from, that is all (and of course not broken, just nice and balanced like all 4th Ed classes seem to be so far).
You say the name assassin isn't needed, the name fighter for a class really isn't needed, we could call it warrior, so that has no bearing on anything.
And as for Ninja, I'm no expert, but aren't they simply Japanese assassins with a nifty costume? And as for your wants, which is all this really boils down to, I don't want a class named Shadowdancer, it makes me think of some fruit rabbit from Cirque De Soleil mincing around an encounter and doing jazz-hands at the end.
Well anyway, I know this will all be wasted on you because you're obviously playing a bizarre game on this thread, I just wish I knew the rules (inside joke) so I could join in on the laugh.
Unless, of course, they introduce the Scurvy power source.
Arr....Matey be thinking right.
Ki Powers:
Ninja- striker (ki or shadow)
Samarai-defender
Shugenja- controller
shailin monk(something like): leader
Shadow:
duskblade
Witch
Psionic:
telepath or mindmage
soulknife (blade)
Though it may not work this way. But I think a few of these may be in. I wouldn't mind seeing a few other classes. Psionic may not be in the mix this year. And there already is psycic damage, so I'm not sure where they'll go with psionics. I think we'll see Witch and Ninja soon. Hoping for ninjas!
M.M. said he wanted a campaign with pirates. I overheard him at Gencon. So, maybe a buccaneer class, pirate, or swashbuckler. How 'bout a shadowy pirate class to go with Githyanki?
Races are more tricky. As always, I hope for some animalistic races. If they go Ki, I'd like Nezumi (rats). If something piraty or foresty , catpeople. But we'll have to wait. PH2 was all human-like races. (I see Shifters as more human than animal). I would not be surprised to see Shades soon.
I'm sure there will be atleast a few cool options in the next Phb! I thought the PH2 was going to be a dud, but found I liked the Avenger, Invoker, and the Sorcerer classes. And Devas are interesting, just not something I'd play.
We'll get hints a month or two before release, I'm sure. Until then, it's heresay.
Shadow, I predict, will be more Shadowcaster (3e ToM) in nature, channeling power from the Shadowfell (a possible Necromancer power source), & does not match the ninja very well 'tall.
The ninja should not be pigeonholed as an assassin no more than the wizard as a royal vizier. Much of the idea of the ninja is in stealth, holding secrets, keeping secrets, & manipulation. Assassination could play into this as well as spying, thieving, & setting the enemy's castle on fire to distract them: they are old-fashioned secret agents, is a simple explanation.
Ninjutsu itself has roots in the shugendo of the yamabushi (think tengu), a ki-related cult; contemporary aikido has similar roots. In the reality as well as the myth of a ninja, ki is an important element. You might scoff at Naruto, but, along with Harry Potter, the series is fairly steeped in the reality & myth surrounding its source of inspiration.
The Ki book: I'd hope the PH3 to have 4 ki classes & races like kitsune, bakeneko, & a winged people (in China & in Japan, where they are one kind of tengu). This is so people who are interested in the basics of a typical Asian culture setting don't need to page thru multiple books any more than those interested in the basic D&D setting (Cleric, Fighter, Thief, Wizard).
Races: They have already made Eladrin, Elf, Half-Elf, & Drow separate races, all of which one may call "elves" & have similar traits in myth, so perhaps they should not roll all the animal shapechangers (the tanuki, crane, & snake varieties too) into hengeyokai, but eitherway, I'd be disappointed if they don't have their defining characteristics: shapechanging into people or objects, ghost/foxfire, animating the dead/possessing the living, animal form being their natural form.
Power Split: Unlike the Bard, Necromancer, or Gnome, who have followings devoted to one class/race, Asian stuff in general seems to have a specific following, as does psionics, so perhaps those powersources should not be split. (Or is it just because they were visited as specific supplements in previous editions?)
:Player's Handbook 3: Ki, Psionic and Shadow Heroes.
Split: 4 Psionic/2 Ki/2 Shadow
Classes:
Psionic Power Source
Controller - Psion
Probably has a different name. Probably focuses on mental domination and psychic damage as fluff for control effects.
Defender - Psychic Warrior
Probably has a different name. Focuses on psychic melee damage and mental control for marks, powers, etc.
Striker - Mindknife
Could be Ki, but it's Psionic through legacy so I'm putting it here. Uses psychic powers to create a mindblade that deals psychic damage
Leader - Empath
Probably has a different name. Will use mental powers to heal, buff, etc.
Probably has a different name. Probably focuses on mental domination and psychic damage as fluff for control effects.
Defender - Psychic Warrior
Probably has a different name. Focuses on psychic melee damage and mental control for marks, powers, etc.
Striker - Mindknife
Could be Ki, but it's Psionic through legacy so I'm putting it here. Uses psychic powers to create a mindblade that deals psychic damage
Leader - Empath
Probably has a different name. Will use mental powers to heal, buff, etc.
This is part of the problem. The Assassin skills are limited, and require more than a first level character to implement right. It is a narrow concept and a limited mindset to build a character class from.
Anyone, from a pheasant to a king, can be an Assassin without the need of a specified class. Accept money, kill target. Simple.
Is anyone else confused by the fact that these two points cancel eachother out? A peasant (or did you mean the bird?) can be an Assassin but a first level adventurer does not have the chops?
I have a feeling we are going to see some totally new concepts for some of the Ki and Psionic classes, I expect some newcomer classes like Avenger.
I also should point out that most Assassins have a really short lifespan. When something goes wrong, it usually ends badly for the Assassin.
edit... Peasant/Pheasant... I may have misspelled this...
I also should point out that most Assassins have a really short lifespan. When something goes wrong, it usually ends badly for the Assassin.
Sort of like the life of the average adventurer?:P
Ki:
Wu Jen: Controller
Sohei: Leader
Monk: Striker
Samurai: Defender
Psionic:
Soulknife: Defender
Psion: Controller
Shadow:
Shadow Dancer: Striker
Necromancer: Controller
Races:
Hengyoki, Kenku, Shadar-kai, Githyanki, Duergar/Svirfneblin?, Thri-kreen
On a personal note I would love to see a Mechanical/Science power base led by Tinker Gnomes, but I might have to make that up on my own...
The point I was trying to make was that an Assassin is a generic term relating to a trade, one that most people would not go into. Anyone with some skill that could be turned toward killing targets in their sleep can be one, though a pheasant may be a one time Assassin for the chance to no longer be a pheasant.
I also should point out that most Assassins have a really short lifespan. When something goes wrong, it usually ends badly for the Assassin.
edit... Peasant/Pheasant... I may have misspelled this...
Yeah, you misspelled it, thaX. OTOH, it's actually really hilarious if you reread what you wrote, bearing in mind that a pheasant looks like this:
Which reminds me: Easter turkey! Happy Easter (and happy turkey) to everyone! Have some turkey! (Or at least chocolate eggs...)
Sort of like the life of the average adventurer?:P
Shorter than that. Assassins kill one target at a time. The good ones kill just the target, leaving the other family members/staff/crew incapacitated but alive. Better to get paid to kill them later.
Ki:
Wu Jen: Controller
Sohei: Leader
Monk: Striker
Samurai: Defender
There are so many things wrong with this; why did they have to call it Ki of all things, way too many people are getting hung up on that tiny word.
Just to spite those that think only asian people can have certain powers I hope the Ki classes are Monk, Incarnate, Soulborn, and Totemist
Just to spite those that think only asian people can have certain powers I hope the Ki classes are Monk, Incarnate, Soulborn, and Totemist
This makes me think of the art work in the Pathfinder books.
Yeah...
Necromancer (Controller) Builds:
Gravecaller Necromancer (sec. Defender) - Constitution, Wisdom, Intelligence
Fleshmolder Necromancer (sec. Striker) - Wisdom, Dexterity, Intelligence
Assassin (Striker) Builds:
Ninja Spy Assassin (sec. Controller) - Dexterity, Wisdom, Intelligence
Nightblade Assassin (sec. Controller) - Dexterity, Charisma, Intelligence
Beguiller (Controller) Builds:
Shadoweave Beguiller (sec. Leader) - Charisma, Intelligence, Dexterity
Mindcrush Beguiller (sec. Striker) - Wisdom, Charisma, Dexterity
Duskblade (Defender) Builds:
Hex Glamour Duskblade (sec. Controller) - Dexterity, Charisma, Strength
Twilit Mind Duskblade (sec. Striker) - Dexterity, Intelligence, Strength
Dreamweaver (Leader) Builds:
Shadowself Dreamweaver (sec. Controller) - Charisma, Strength, Constitution
Nightmare Dreamweaver (sec. Controller) - Charisma, Wisdom, Constitution
If you've read my previous posts, the classes are explained. These builds have been optimised to work with certain races and the way races I think will be released can interact with them.
About the Fleshmolder Necromancer, the concept is like the Flesh Cults from Open Grave. That is, it's a build focusing the necrotic energy upon the self, rather than to summon and command undead, to manipulate the bodily organs and create temporary humunculi with pieces of the necromancer's own body. This Necromancer would be a master of the science of anatomy, and now exactly how to manipulate his/her organs to best effect. I set up the build so that Shadar-kai, who also oppose the concept of permanent and/or conscious undead, could be good at it, though it primarily uses Wisdom to be conscious of the body. The Wisdom is also good for the Dark Ones, whom I think will be a Wis/Cha race, as well as for Elves, Devas, and others. This is a much more physical and hands-on Necromancer than the one who uses his/her necrotic energy upon others.
Personally, I'm OK with a 4/2/2 breakdown regardless of whether Shadow, Ki, or Psionic gets prime billing. I have a short list of classes that I REALLY want it to include, and then anything else is a bonus:
Ki - Monk (Defender), Ninja (Striker)
Psionic - Telepath (Leader), Mindblade/Soulknife (Striker)
Shadow - Illusionist (Controller)
I have no idea what a Ki Controller or Leader would be called or look like. Both require a lot of external effects, and Ki seems like a very internalized power source. How does a Ki character control the battlefield? Or provide inspiration/healing to allies?
Psionic Defender would probably be based on the psychic warrior template, but I'm not sure if that would be even remotely "unique" feeling in 4E and I'm not too terribly interested in it. More interesting would be a Telekinesis-based Striker and maybe an Astral Construct-based Controller.
For Shadow, I'm wavering on whether Ninja should be in Shadow. I could see it being either Ki or Shadow. The Necromancer seems obvious, but I'm not sure I like the idea of Necromancer as a PC class. A Shadow Controller using summoned shadow creatures/stuff could be pretty cool, but it totally duplicates the feel of the Astral Construct-based controller.
I don't think the formula for classe in PHBs will change. It will probably be 3 power sources at a time, with any given source being presented in following PHBs until all desired classes are covered. Since Martial, Arcane, Divine, and Primal are all pretty much "done", I think it's most reasonable to think that there will again be 3 power sources, in a 4/2/2 format. The PHB 4 will likely have the remaining 2 each of the previous 2/2 classes, and all four of the new power source introduced in it. Granted, two PHBs is hardly much of a pattern to base the assumption on...but it's more than what peope seem to be basing other PHB formats on. One power source? Why? Have they said this, have they given ANY indication of it...even a miniscule hint?
My personal guesses are as follows, and I'm using known terms from 3.5, but I believe most of the names will likely be modified or changed entirely.
Psionic 4
Leader - Telepath (empathy oriented)
Defender - Psychic Warrior and/or Ardent
Striker - Soulknife and/or Lurk (if soulknfe makes it at all it will be a renamed psionic class as there's simply no possibility they could be stupid enough to turn it into a ki class)
Controller - Telepath (with a little psychokinesis to satiate the flash-bang addicts)
Shadow 2
Controller - Necromancer (people REALLY seem to want it bad, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it).
Striker - Um...actually I really have no idea...Shadowdancer?
Ki 2
Monk...it's just so obvious to be included...but not sure what role.
No idea what else...since I really don't think it'll be ninja or samurai or such, but possibly a formerly Incarnum class?
But, those are just my guesses, so I (just like the rest of you) could quite easily be wrong.
Player's Handbook 3: Psionic, Ki and Shadow Heroes. Probably a 4/2/2 split
Classes:
Psionic Power Source
Controller - Psion
Focusing on mental domination and other status effects.
Defender - Psychic Warrior
Focuses on psychic melee damage and controlling marks, powers, etc.
Striker - Mindblade
Uses psychic powers/mindblade to enhance focus weapon and has psychic damage riders/effects.
Leader - Empath
Will use mental powers to heal, buff, etc.
Ki Power Source
I included 3 because the Samurai might be too similar to other classes already out.
Defender - Samurai/Kensei(renamed to something without a lot of preconceptions or redundancy)
Light Armor melee weapon specialist. High accuracy, with abilities to parry, intercept, or redirect marked enemy attacks against allies.
Striker - Monk (Unarmored Striker)
Updated Monk focusing on either unarmed attacks or attacks with specific weapons. Possible dagamge mechanic: monastic styles. Multiple styles based on build(minor action to assume a monastic style) and/or changed through at-wills with style riders on encounter and dailies(possibly at-wills).
Leader - Disciple (here is a home brew example http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1178782)
Similar to monk in being unarmored and fighting unarmed or with specific weapons. Uses attacks to buff and heal. Also has plenty of low [W] powers in the form or rechargeable encounter powers and reliable daily powers. Buffing/healing powers that require setup from at-will attack powers for full rider effects.
Shadow Power Source
Striker - Ninja/Assassin/Shadowdancer
Uses illusions to conceal themselves, shadow teleportation, phasing.
Controller - Necromancer
Uses Necromancy-themed Summons and Illusions.
Races:
Gith
Goblin
Elan
Shadar-Kai
Xeph
So I'm thinking now the Illusionist will not be a new class, and if they make Beguiler it will be quite different from just an Illusionist type. Or instead of Beguiler we may see a Truenamer/Archivist type
Also I would think any dream/nightmare power using classes would be Psionic, unless those two things are explicitly Shadow
so my guess are
if it's Shadow/KI/PSI 3/3/3 (or 2/2/2 take away the last class)
shadow
Illusionist (controller), Necromancer (leader), Assasin (striker)
ki
Monk (striker), Ki-blade (defender), Ki master (leader)
psi
Enchanter (controller), Psi-blade (striker), Empath (leader)
hybrid
we must also consider that in phb3 we will get hybrid and so each previous class + the new class will get 1 page for hybrid stat
more pp and ed for new classes and races, and hybrids
some pp and ed for old classes/races
Illusionist (controller),
The Illusionist archetype is going to be a new Cha build for Wizards in Arcane Power, it's confirmed.
Ki master (leader)
It's kinda pointless to post a vague name with no description.
some pp and ed for old classes/races
I'm sure that will not be in there, there might be some feats that apply to old stuff but no PPs or EDs
The Illusionist archetype is going to be a new Cha build for Wizards in Arcane Power, it's confirmed.
That isn't confirmation that there will not be an illusionist class or a class that uses illusions. Fighters use two handed weapons and we still have the barbarian who has an empahasis on two handers. The arcane power source deals large amount of elemental damage, yet we are still having an elemental power source. There can be overlap, potential very large overlap, between classes.
Ninja will not be shadow.
If they make a Ninja class at all, it will be Ki. Like the Monk.
They won't fill out an entire grid for all power sources, Ki could have two strikers (Monk/Ninja) like Arcane who go about striking in a completly different manner to each other. Ki's Leader could very possibly be Samurai. As a Samurai could fit either defender or leader role.
But I also think the Shadow Strike will be called Assassin... With one build called shadow Dancer...
If they make a Ninja class at all, it will be Ki. Like the Monk.
Ok, why? What about the Ninja makes it a Ki class? Keep in mind that Ki is the spiritual power residing within all souls.
Ok, why? What about the Ninja makes it a Ki class? Keep in mind that Ki is the spiritual power residing within all souls.
Because the historic mythological lore points to ninjas using their natural skill, and directing their Chi, to accomplish many of the tasks they did, in the same way every other Eastern martial arts discipline did?
Shadow? Only in the Legends of the Five Rings' Rokugan, and the 3E version of D&D, is ninjitsu tied to some ephemeral realm of shadows, I'm afraid. At least, that I'm familiar with. Tied to Chi/Ki, however? Oh, yeah, there is a plethora of such lore to explore.
Because the historic mythological lore points to ninjas using their natural skill, and directing their Chi, to accomplish many of the tasks they did, in the same way every other Eastern martial arts discipline did?
Shadow? Only in the Legends of the Five Rings' Rokugan, and the 3E version of D&D, is ninjitsu tied to some ephemeral realm of shadows, I'm afraid. At least, that I'm familiar with. Tied to Chi/Ki, however? Oh, yeah, there is a plethora or such lore to explore.
This,
oh and Mcnancy, why don't you do some research and try and structure and argument on why they shouldn't be ki.
I'm cautious about the Wu Jen; what exactly is it based on? (honest question)
oh and Mcnancy, why don't you do some research and try and structure and argument on why they shouldn't be ki.
Why should I do research? there is no Japan in D&D, There is no D&D in Japanese lore, so why should I give a hoot about RL lore?
Besides, Tectuktitlay did all the research for me.
Shadow? Only in the Legends of the Five Rings' Rokugan, and the 3E version of D&D, is ninjitsu tied to some ephemeral realm of shadows, I'm afraid.
'I'm afraid' those things have a bit more of a relation to D&D than Japanese lore, those may only be two examples out of the many but seeing how those are 'D&D classes', my bets on them for what we will be seeing from a class for ninjas, the fact that they did it twice before in 3x should tell you that they might do it for 4E.
'I'm afraid' those things have a bit more of a relation to D&D than Japanese lore, those may only be two examples out of the many but seeing how those are 'D&D classes', my bets on them for what we will be seeing from a class for ninjas, the fact that they did it twice before in 3x should tell you that they might do it for 4E.
Yes, and until 3E, ninjas in D&D used their natural ability, and Chi/Ki. In fact, some of the ninjas in 3E used their natural abilities and Chi/Ki, and only SOME used "shadow". So, I dare say that the shadow version of a ninja has considerably less precedence, both internally and externally, with regards to its relationship to Dungeons and Dragons.
A shadow ninja can certainly come out as a niche class/path. However, when someone new to the game, or pre-3E players, or 3E players who never used those particular incarnations thinks "ninja", "shadow ninja" is not what will initially spring to mind. A martial arts mastery version of a ninja is both apropos for D&D and vastly more accessible to the consumer than a shadow version (hint, a small subset of 3E players are NOT the target audience of 4E D&D, but more mainstream accessibility certainly is).
ETA: Oh, and one more thing: The 3E Oriental Adventures setting was set in...wait for it...wait for it...ROKUGAN, the Legends of the Five Rings setting. I don't have my books in front of me, but I'd wager the odds are pretty darn good that the first shadow ninja in 3E came out BECAUSE it was apropos for Rokugan, then WotC went with it again. In other words, there was likely a REASON to use a shadow ninja instead of a more "traditional" ninja.
Why should I do research? there is no Japan in D&D, There is no D&D in Japanese lore, so why should I give a hoot about RL lore?
So why would they name a class after something with real life standings yet has very little connection other then the sneaking and killing. RL lore has alot of basis in D&D mainly in the western side of thing admitedly but I just don't see them not using eastern lore for a class with asian standings. Course I can see non asian classes being Ki to.
Ninja have always been the outcast in the martial arts world, in the shadows as it were. I, and others on this board, have seen two types of ninja. One is the sneaky, shadowy guy in the black pajamas. The other is mostly seen in Anime series, throwing force fire balls and going after orbs of power, or some such.
Not all the normally martial artist classes are going to be in the Ki power source. There is only so much kung fu fighting in slightly different styling that can be done. The Monk will hopefully have more of a holy man of the Martial Arts feel, like the main character in Kung Fu.
The Dromite is still my choice for the small race in the PHB3.
Whatever the shadow striker is called, I maintain that it won't be "Assassin."
Ninja have always been the outcast in the martial arts world, in the shadows as it were. I, and others on this board, have seen two types of ninja. One is the sneaky, shadowy guy in the black pajamas. The other is mostly seen in Anime series, throwing force fire balls and going after orbs of power, or some such.
Not all the normally martial artist classes are going to be in the Ki power source. There is only so much kung fu fighting in slightly different styling that can be done. The Monk will hopefully have more of a holy man of the Martial Arts feel, like the main character in Kung Fu.
The Dromite is still my choice for the small race in the PHB3.
Whats a Dromite?
Dromites - Dromites might be mistaken for halflings at a distance, due to their diminutive stature. However, closer scrutiny reveals Dromites to have hardened, chitin-encrusted skin, compound eyes like those of an insect, and two small antennea protruding from their brows.
Insect race.
Nice, I havn't actually played with any Psionics, but that sounds kinda cool though I cant help but think Hivemind when the idea of psycic power and insects come together.
Here, take this...
Here, take this...
Yum.
My freinds have mentioned something psionic that seemed like an interesting concept for a strike with the abbility to form blades of psionic energy, just wandering why no one considered this as one of the classes... seems a preatty awesome idea.
Dromites are ok, they just seem too...Star Trek for my tastes. That is to say, they are very much like humans, but with a different species' attributes mildly tacked on for cosmetic purposes, and a slight cultural lore tossed in.
Thri-kreen, on the other hand, are considerably more insect-like both physically and behaviorally, finding traditional humanoids quite odd and rather alien.
Finally, thri-kreen would tie in perfectly with Dark Sun, and first appeared in D&D (if recollection serves) as natives of the Forgotten Realms. This would tie in to the official RPGA setting, tie in to the previous years campaign setting (because EVERYTHING exists in Eberron, albeit often with rather modified lore), tie in to psionics, and tie in to (fingers crossed) the newest campaign setting, thus freeing up space in the Dark Sun Player's Guide for some other race central to that setting.
I would hope that the Thri Kreen would be saved for the Player's Guide for Dark Sun.
As I specifically said, for the precise purpose of preemptively rebutting that exact point, thri-kreen were originally from the Forgotten Realms and tie in specifically with psionics. This makes them a perfect sort of candidate to put into a book like the PH3, as they specifically originate from the lore of the only RPGA setting (at the moment), and the likely focus of the PH3 itself: psionics.I would like to save the DSPG race slots for races that are ONLY or ORIGINALLY found on Athas (for example, muls, possibly half-giants), and/or races that function differently on Athas (for example, dwarves, who should have some sort of racial trait to simulate their focus, and elves, who both don't have a "high elf" portion that needs to be taken over by the likes of eladrin, and likely need some sort of inherent racial trait to represent their insane overland movement rate and running endurance).
I would like to save the DSPG race slots for races that are ONLY or ORIGINALLY found on Athas (for example, muls, possibly half-giants), and/or races that function differently on Athas (for example, dwarves, who should have some sort of racial trait to simulate their focus, and elves, who both don't have a "high elf" portion that needs to be taken over by the likes of eladrin, and likely need some sort of inherent racial trait to represent their insane overland movement rate and running endurance).
I can agree with most of that. Don't think it'll happen though. Thri-kreen have justification for being a PHB3 race...but they're too bug-like to go anywhere but the DSPG. I'd rather them be in the PHB3...because that increases the odds that the Elan will be in the DSPG. But...I keep my hopes low, it boosts my expectations defense and grants me a sizable bonus on my saves vs. disappointment.
Since they've only released two PHBs, and each has radically different racial selection both in type and number, it's hard to guess exactly how many races, let alone which races, they'll include. Assuming they stick with 5 only, that doesn't leave much. Assuming they include one small race, that only leaves so many choices. Assuming they include two races only from the back of the MM, that cuts options considerably. Assuming each race has an affinity for one power source or another, that narrows the range somewhat. That's a LOT of assumptions, but then again, that's all we're doing here anyway...is assuming.
If they decide to include a small race...I personally believe it'll probably be goblin, MAYBE kobold, but certainly not dromite...tradition tends to win out over novelty. Goblins have blues to associate with psionics, and since they're a typically evil race, are likely to associate with shadow often. That also covers one of the two races from the back of the MM.
The Githzerai are almost a shoe-in, I'd think. Being affiliated with both psionics AND ki and being a rather popular race. That would cover the second MM race, too. The only other option I'd think would be reasonable from the MM would be the Shadar-kai for the fact that they're native to the Shadowfell, and they're certainly an interesting option. Perhaps they might go for 3 races from the MM?
Frankly...I really have no idea at all about the other two or three races. I'm not even willing to entertain any specific guesses about what they'd be. I'm figuring two or three races each affiliated with one of the remaining power sources of the book.
I can agree with most of that. Don't think it'll happen though. Thri-kreen have justification for being a PHB3 race...but they're too bug-like to go anywhere but the DSPG. I'd rather them be in the PHB3...because that increases the odds that the Elan will be in the DSPG. But...I keep my hopes low, it boosts my expectations defense and grants me a sizable bonus on my saves vs. disappointment.
It's good to keep your hopes low sometimes. :D I also hope it happens, but I am certainly not asserting that it WILL happen. I am simply pointing out the history thri-kreen have, and the links with the current setting and the likely 2010 setting that will probably tie in with PH3.
The Githzerai are almost a shoe-in, I'd think. Being affiliated with both psionics AND ki and being a rather popular race. That would cover the second MM race, too. The only other option I'd think would be reasonable from the MM would be the Shadar-kai for the fact that they're native to the Shadowfell, and they're certainly an interesting option. Perhaps they might go for 3 races from the MM?
The Githzerai AND Githyanki are likely to be included at once, for multiple reasons. Githzerai for the Ki/Psionics tie in, and their link to Githyanki. Githyanki because they are a very classic D&D race, also tie in with Psionics, tie in intimately with the lore of the Astral Sea, tie in with Dark Sun, AND are likely to be the first officially playable Int/Con race.
I am thinking that WotC doesn't have a set-in-stone rule for the PHB layout differences from one to the other. It might be three races, it might be eight. I can easily see Githyanki, Githzerai, Shadar-Kai, Goblin, Thri-Kreen, Kalashtar (delayed until PH3, instead of going into the Eberron PG), Elan, and maybe something brand new?
Plus, as others have pointed out, it might be 4 Psi/2 Ki/ 2 Shadow or 4 Psi/2 Ki/2 Elemental, or they might throw that out completely, and have 4 Psi/4 Ki, or even something rather different such as 4 Psi/3 Ki/1 Elemental, 3 Psi/3 Ki/1 Shadow/1 Elemental, or whatever other combination you can think of.
Githzerai and Githyanki are two which will probably make it, since the Monk will be in PHB3 and it's highly probable that we'll get some psionic classes, too.
Either Doppelganger or Kalashtar will probably make it, too, since Eberron is coming out this year. This depends on which of these races are featured in the Eberron books. If one of them doesn't make it, chances are they'll be in the PHB3. Doppelgangers/changelings would work well for both psionics and shadow, and Kalashtar would work for ki and psionics.
The races up above probably have the best chance of being featured. Some other possibilities include:
Shadar-kai: If the Shadow source appears, then there's a good chance these guys will show up. The presence of a racial article for them might affect their chances or cause them to get pushed back, though.
Undead race: Another good idea to tie into the Shadow source might be a playable undead race (not sure what they'd be called, though, since we have Dhampir already). Necropolitian?
Hengeyokai: The shifter might have filled up the quota on "animal races", so this could be less likely. However, different stats and flavor (maybe focusing more on ki than primal instinct) might give them an unique niche.
Elan or Dromites: Probably the most distinctive of the psionic races introduced in Third Edition. These races might suffer from niche overlap, though (from the Kalashtar and Thri-kreen).
Thri-kreen: An insectoid race might be an interesting addition, but I'm not sure if these will be saved for a future Dark Sun setting.
Centaur: A 'monstrous' race option which could have a good chance of being PC-capable. They might have a few logistical issues which come with a quadrupedal race, though.
Aquatic race or Winged race: These kinds of races can be tricky to pull off in a balanced manner, but would be unique and interesting options for the future.
Illumians: These have been mentioned in a few sourcebooks, and could become a player option, but humans and half-elves cover most of the multi-classing schtick already. Maybe they'd get tied in to the new "hybrid class" option?
Undead race: Another good idea to tie into the Shadow source might be a playable undead race (not sure what they'd be called, though, since we have Dhampir already). Necropolitian?
They have a dhampir? WHERE?
They have a dhampir? WHERE?
In Dragon, forgotten which issue off the top of my head.
Race wise, the big ones for me are: Elan, Thri-Keen and Doppelgangers/Changelings.
If Changeling is Eberron then that is cool, and if Thri-Keen is in Dark Sun then that is cool (I will probably buy both, but if not one of the benefits of DDI). So I am really, really gunning and hoping for Elan in PHB3. They are just such a awesome race and I think lots can be done with them.
I actually think that they could be the mysterious Racial Playtest article in this month's Dragon. I could very well see WoTC expanding upon the concept and it being not just Humans but other races, so this could require more extensive playtesting, etc. In that it wouldn't act like a traditional race.
I really, really hope PHB3 has both Psionics and Shadows. Once those are released my perfect combo of Power Sources will be complete: Martial, Primal, Psionics and Shadow.
They have a dhampir? WHERE?
One of the Dragon Mags has a player 'template'. Essentially you take a feat at 1st level and you gain a bunch of Vampirry goodness, and more feats for power swapping/other features that make you much more Vampiric.
Has a few paragon paths too.
In Dragon, forgotten which issue off the top of my head.
One of the Dragon Mags has a player 'template'. Essentially you take a feat at 1st level and you gain a bunch of Vampirry goodness, and more feats for power swapping/other features that make you much more Vampiric.
Has a few paragon paths too.
Thanks both.
Normally I'm not a fan of vamps, or even undead really, but traditional races just get boring after a while and sometimes I just want to play an aberration, construct, or undead simply to mix it up a bit.
Kinda hoping for at least one of the three in some book soon...and sufficiently strange so as to be properly entertaining.
The Illusionist archetype is going to be a new Cha build for Wizards in Arcane Power, it's confirmed.
well actually this only conferm more illusions to wizard, but dosen't disconferm the illusionist
I see the illusionist as someone with powers to create illusionary magic, summon illusionary monsters, create illusionary walls, cover terrain with illusionary terrain, master of invisibility and the like
maybe also a few dedicated rituals
It's kinda pointless to post a vague name with no description.
well ok
Ki master: he will use ki to heal and invigorate allies, she will be a more melee leader (an healer monk type), think of the healing power shown in some martial arts comics/manga
I'm sure that will not be in there, there might be some feats that apply to old stuff but no PPs or EDs
feat also
The Barbarian and Warden got encounter long bonuses from their dailies.
the Druid has the whole normal style vs. alternate style thing.
We might get another pet class like Shaman or Beastmaster Ranger.
We may get something really out of the ordinary; they could have a Mindbender class that is in a way like a pet class, but it's pet is a enemy monster that it took control of.
Or an Empath that's powers come from it's allies like how a Shaman can orignate bursts and grant attacks to it's spirit companion.
It's easy to visualize the class when you have a mechanical theme first.
I would bet that they put necromancers in the same book as the thrallherd and thaumaturgist (same basic rules, just different types of minion). Unless they go Final Fantasy 8 or Pokemon on the thaumaturgist rules and limit you to one creature at a time.
Ok, I need to say this. Just because I do.
Ninja will not be shadow.
If they make a Ninja class at all, it will be Ki. Like the Monk.
They won't fill out an entire grid for all power sources, Ki could have two strikers (Monk/Ninja) like Arcane who go about striking in a completly different manner to each other. Ki's Leader could very possibly be Samurai. As a Samurai could fit either defender or leader role.
But I also think the Shadow Strike will be called Assassin... With one build called shadow Dancer...
Seriously, thank you for this. There's too much of a hype going on that Ninja is going to be a Shadow class, because everyone has this assumption that Shadow automatically equals stealth...
I've pointed this out already, but every other power source thus covered has shown itself to be capable of stealth related effects. So why, now, everyone has this belief that Ninja could not possibly be anything other than shadow is beyond me... Hell, the class is almost guaranteed to be Ki based due to it's legacy from 3.5e ...
This being said, I've given some more thought to the Shadow Power source, and while I don't think we'll see an actual Blackguard class, we'll probably see a re-work of it as the Hexblade, thematically combining the abilities of both classes. Personally, I'd love to see Blackguard get covered, but seeing as it's traditionally both an evil and divine class, I really doubt that would happen; due to the removal of the Paladin alignment restriction and WoTC push for non-evil PCs.
So here's my take on possible shadow classes...
Necromancer (almost guaranteed here, given it's popularity and such... almost certain to be a controller role, though I could see Leader being feasible)
Shadow Dancer/ Assassin/ Insert-flavor-text-here (We're obviously going to get some type of "assassinesque" class that's going to primarly function on stealth... Obvious striker)
Beguiler (Functioning mainly on illusions and enchantment type effects, with a bit of an emphasis on stealth... This'll probably be another contoller, though again, I could see this being worked as a viable leader)
Hexblade/Blackguard (My belief is that they're probably going to thematically combine both classes and just call it Hexblade... lots of curse spewin', hex slingin' shenanigans abound.... Guaranteed to be a defender)
We may get something really out of the ordinary; they could have a Mindbender class that is in a way like a pet class, but it's pet is a enemy monster that it took control of.
Care to elaborate how you think this mya work, its an awesome idea, however I'm nto sure if monster are created to take into account possibly fighting another monster just like the rules for player characters wern't made to take in account a P v P match.
Shadow Dancer/ Assassin/ Insert-flavor-text-here (We're obviously going to get some type of "assassinesque" class that's going to primarly function on stealth... Obvious striker)
I have to concede that the class is going have Assassin like skills, along with a fuller set of powers and a better theme. I think, though, that the actual name, "Assassin," will be reserved for PP and ED's.
Ninja would seem to fill this niche nicely, if it was to be in the Shadow power source, but the name can change to some sort of Shadowhopper or even some sort if hybrid caster/martial class.
Care to elaborate how you think this mya work, its an awesome idea, however I'm nto sure if monster are created to take into account possibly fighting another monster just like the rules for player characters wern't made to take in account a P v P match.
It's not something I really thought too much about; it just sorta popped into my head.
I'm not really sure how monsters compare to summoned creatures, maybe the class would alter the damage output and squishyness of the creature or whatever to make it more like a pet....
One idea I had for the Assassin class is that it would have conditional damage like the Rogue, except instead of needing combat advantage for extra damage the Assassin needs concealment, and they would have ways of making their own concealment that combo with the attacks.
PHB 3 ToC
Contents
INTRODUCTION
The Ki Power Source
Ki Powers are called Techniques
The Psionic Power Source
Psionic Powers are called Manifestations
The Shadow Power Source
Shadow Powers are called Mysteries
1: CHARACTER RACES
Changeling
Githyanki
Githzerai
Illumian
Thri-kreen
Racial Paragon Paths
Changeling
Githyanki
Githzerai
Illumian
Thri-kreen
2: CHARACTER CLASSES
Ardent – Psionic leader
Illusionist – Shadow controller
Lurk – Psionic striker
Monk – Ki striker
Necromancer – Shadow leader
Warmind – Psionic defender
Sohei – Ki defender
Psion – Psionic controller
3: CHARACTER OPTIONS
Hybrid Classes
Feats
Heroic Tier Feats
Paragon Tier Feats
Epic Tier Feats
Multiclass Feats
Bloodline Feats
Adventuring Gear
Magic Items
Armor
Weapons
Crystals - Psionic Implement
Rods
Staffs
Tomes
Wands
Wraps - Ki Implement
Wondrous Items
Rituals
Variant Ritual Books
Ritual Descriptions
APPENDIX: RULE UPDATES
GLOSSARY
INDEX
INTRODUCTION
The Ki Power Source
Ki Powers are called Techniques
The Psionic Power Source
Psionic Powers are called Manifestations
The Shadow Power Source
Shadow Powers are called Mysteries
1: CHARACTER RACES
Changeling
Githyanki
Githzerai
Illumian
Thri-kreen
Racial Paragon Paths
Changeling
Githyanki
Githzerai
Illumian
Thri-kreen
2: CHARACTER CLASSES
Ardent – Psionic leader
Illusionist – Shadow controller
Lurk – Psionic striker
Monk – Ki striker
Necromancer – Shadow leader
Warmind – Psionic defender
Sohei – Ki defender
Psion – Psionic controller
3: CHARACTER OPTIONS
Hybrid Classes
Feats
Heroic Tier Feats
Paragon Tier Feats
Epic Tier Feats
Multiclass Feats
Bloodline Feats
Adventuring Gear
Magic Items
Armor
Weapons
Crystals - Psionic Implement
Rods
Staffs
Tomes
Wands
Wraps - Ki Implement
Wondrous Items
Rituals
Variant Ritual Books
Ritual Descriptions
APPENDIX: RULE UPDATES
GLOSSARY
INDEX
Ardent – Psionic leader
Illusionist – Shadow controller
Lurk – Psionic striker
Monk – Ki striker
Necromancer – Shadow leader
Psiwarrior – Psionic defender
Sohei – Ki defender
Telepath – Psionic controller
The rest is good, but this is the heart of the debate.
To me the Illusionist is going to be well covered thematically, which means even if they had all new mechanics, it would still feel redundant to me.
The word Sohei scares me, non english words have cultural luggage that make the class hard to flavor anyother way, it makes me feel like every character I make with that class has to be asian.
I never played Psionic classes so I don't know what those names mean in terms of D&D, but Psiwarrior sounds a little like a bad Sci-Fi original.
The rest is good, but this is the heart of the debate.
To me the Illusionist is going to be well covered thematically, which means even if they had all new mechanics, it would still feel redundant to me.
The word Sohei scares me, non english words have cultural luggage that make the class hard to flavor anyother way, it makes me feel like every character I make with that class has to be asian.
I never played Psionic classes so I don't know what those names mean in terms of D&D, but Psiwarrior sounds a little like a bad Sci-Fi original.
I chose Sohei for it's fluff, ki powered defender similar to a paladin., Psiwarrior was just a place holder name, I was also concidering Warmind.
Once more, I'll point out the the class-name Psion is explicitly named in the PHB. Thus far, every other class named in the PHB in that same sidebar has been confirmed, and, moreover, has kept the exact same name. I fully expect to see Psion as the name of the psionic controller. I would not be remotely surprised, however, if Telepath is one of their class feature choices, along with Telekinetic.
You are correct, correction made!
Bel
The rest is good, but this is the heart of the debate.
To me the Illusionist is going to be well covered thematically, which means even if they had all new mechanics, it would still feel redundant to me.
The word Sohei scares me, non english words have cultural luggage that make the class hard to flavor anyother way, it makes me feel like every character I make with that class has to be asian.
I never played Psionic classes so I don't know what those names mean in terms of D&D, but Psiwarrior sounds a little like a bad Sci-Fi original.
I, for one, would hope for the return of the Illusionist as a separate class, like it had been in the first edition. Seeing that the illusion spells are in the Arcane Power book are reprinted from the Dragon ghost, and expanded on, Wizards has seemed to back off this idea. It would have been nice to have this from the beginning, though, instead of being teased and then let down.
I believe the Psionic Warrior will be replaced by the soul(Mind?)knife or have a name more intelligent than the putting together the power source with the role. Psi may not fill all the "grid" in their four classes, in my mind, and this class may have a lot of reworking in the new book.
I have to concede that the class is going have Assassin like skills, along with a fuller set of powers and a better theme. I think, though, that the actual name, "Assassin," will be reserved for PP and ED's.
Agreed. I use the term "assassin" loosely here, as I honestly feel that an assassin can readily be a role encompassed by most classes without stretching to much. The very idea of an assassin is someone who basically kills for money. This is an idea that can easily applied to anything from a fighter to a wizard. Really, when you actually think about it, most PC tend to end up being glorified assassins...
Think about it. Adventuring Group A gets contracted by a village to "remove" a small tribe of pesky goblins that have been harrassing the town. Group A will be paid handsomely for every goblin slain, as well as receive a hefty bonus for the death of the tribes chieftan...
On the other hand, Adventuring Group B gets contracted by the local thieves guild to put the hurt on the local town guard, because the guard has been pestering the guild. Group B will get paid for every guard slain, as well as receive the a nice bonus for removing the goody-two-shoes Captain of the Guard whose been causing the guild so much trouble.
Basically, a lot of adventuring boils down to this simple formula: Group A (or Person A) gets compensation for removing Target(s) B as a threat to Client C...
By the same token, most assassination contracts follow the following formula: Group A (or Person A) gets compensation for removing Target(s) B as a threat to Client C...
PHB3 will be 4/4 Ki & Psionics. Phb 1 was forced into a 4/2/2 pattern simply because Martial, Arcane & Divine are required, with phb2 filling the holes, so to speak.
Ki is already confirmed via the upcoming monk preview, and Psionics is arguably the most popular of the remaining sources. Psionics also has the advantage of age.
Thematically the book would become Mystic Heros, trained in secret temples and forgotten valleys. This leaves Shadow & Elemental for PHB 4 for the Dark heros, using forbidden and mysterious magics.
For races, the gith are a no-brainer. After that we'll see Elan (Who will gain immunity to damage caused by failed endurance checks, and can spend Surges to auto-succeed saving throws) and Illumians (Masters of Hybridisation).
Psionics
The Psionics classes will have a Source-ability called Augmentation. Each class will have a small selection of Augment powers which act as metamagic effects, allowing you to knock targets prone, deal additional damage types (All Psionic powers would deal Force, Psychic or Lightning damage. Pyrokinetesists would simply have this augment) ect. The powers would ideally be interchangable between classes, but each class would have it's own way of triggering thier augments: For example, the Defender would augment his powers when targeting marked foes.
The Psion would be a controller with the option to specialise in mind control/precognition or telekenesis, and the ability to augment his powers X times per encounter, perhaps depending upon his secondary ability score.
The Ardent would be a defender who chooses between ranged or melee tanking.
Melee ardents gain the ability to mark any enemy in a burst 2 that hits an ally, and deals secondary ability modifier damage on a miss.
Ranged ardents mark any enemy that hits an ally within burst 2, and adds his secondary ability modifier to his reach on his turn.
All ardents would gain combat advantage against marked targets, and thier powers would augment when attacking them.
The Lurk would be a striker/single target controller who applies ever increasing debuffs the longer they concentrate on an enemy. Class features would determine exactly what debuff path they take.
The empath will also be there :P
The Psionic implement will be the living tattoo.
Soulblade will be a feat.
Ki
The Ki power source will be less integrated, but will have a great many touch-range attacks, and deal thunder damage. They will also absorb any and all body-modification powers from psi, giving psi all telekenesis and mind-powers in return. Basically, they'll become two sides of the same coin, reflecting internal and external mind powers.
The monk will be a striker. Extra damage will be achieved via a minor-action melee attack. Monks will get to choose between martial (Str secondary, bonus to damage) and mystical (Wis secondary, bonus to defence) styles.
The Avatar will be a defender, themed around a fighter who imbues his weapon with a part of his soul. He would gain the ability to bind a weapon to himself making it the implement for his attacks. avatars would choose between using their weapon to improve thier fighting abilities and granting thier weapon special powers. See the Monkey King in "The Forbidden Kingdom" for a good example.
The Incarnate would be a controller who uses his soul to create fantastic weapons and armour. The difference between the incarnate and the soulblade is that the incarnate can't use his creations for normal weapon attacks, as they would be too fantastic; a soulblade might make a khopesh, but an incarnate would make a giant pair of wings made of knives. The class features would consist of utility powers granted by your weapon (minor flight for example).
The Incarnate would basically become the "Ki-Beam" class.
See the film Zu Warriors for many examples.
Ki will contain no dedicated leader class, as it's a primarily internal source.
Shadow
The Shadow power class will have the theme of Infection. Shadow magic should be grasping, addictive and degenerative.That said, it's in no way evil. Just nasty.
Powers will deal mostly Necrotic, Poison and Acid damage. Ongoing damage and save-ends effects will be rampant throughout the source.
If the Dark Sun setting is ever released then shadow magic will be refluffed within the setting as defilier magic, with arcane becoming preserver.
The Shadowcaster will be the controller, with Illusionist and necromancer builds. The illusionist build will add the illusion keyword to shadow powers, the necromancer build will add the conjuration keyword. Actual Summons will be reserved for daily powers. Summoning multiple undead will achived via the Swarm keyword.
The Shade will be a striker, with assasin and ninja builds. Striker damage will be achieved via ongoing damage. Assasin is a poor name for a class as it describes a way of life, not a fighting style, whereas Ninja isn't generalised enough to become a full class.
The Reaver will be a Defender with Hexblade and Blackguard builds. Tanking is achived via a save-ends mark.
The Defiler (I can't think of a good name) will be a leader who leads by granting his allies abilities normally found amongst the undead, or by allowing the dead to temporarilly "ride" thier allies. He would have little to no actual healing ability, and that would be mostly temporary hit points. He might not keep your body together, but he just won't. Let. ME. DIE. Ahem.
The shadow implement will be the Symbiote. Living pieces of shadow that bind themselves to thier user, trading power for life. Item powers would have the healing surge keyword.
I also have predictions for the Elemental Source, but I think I'll leave them for now :D
Oh god, my poor useless hands
The power sources in the first two books did seem to be attached to the history of the roles in the editions before. I doubt, however, that the 4.2.2 split will be changed for PHB3. Each PHB has had a dark class. The first had the Warlock, which is more tied to paths according to the pact he chooses and is more directed than the other classes. (and is as far away from the 3.5 class as it can be) The Avenger is, from what I seen thus far, the equivalent of the mirror of the Paladin, or what would be the "Evil Paladin" in the previous edition, though it is merely an over enthusiastic one here. Having the Shadow power source along with the main Psi and the other half being Ki would provide the Necromancer as the dark class for PHB3.
The Tattoo power type mechanic needs to stay with the previous edition, or be a specific class in a setting guide. Having it be a power source implement is not a good idea.
Pointed out elsewhere many times, but the Psion and the power source name Psi is really to close to being the same name. It would be like naming the Arcane class the Arcanist, or the Primal class the Primer, or the Martial class the Martial. Most likely, a different name will be used.
There is no Touch attack AC anymore. I do think the Ying/Yang balance will be used, but within the Ki power source, not pitting each of the power sources against one another. I am hoping the Monk will be more than the passive ability power laden class from the previous edition, turning into an Outsider.
The Anime stylings of your theorized classes for the Ki classes might make a good RPG elsewhere, but I can't see it here in this brand. Avatar is a name for a form a god takes when he comes down upon the earth, not really the air benders your thinking of.
The Incarnate just sounds like a more complicated type of artificer that works with weapons like they are Warforged constructs in themselves. Interesting concept, but one that is more complicated than what this new edition is trying to be. One of the great things about this new system is that it doesn't have a bunch of sub systems to learn when a new class is introduced, and the weapons being in forms that you suggest means a total rewrite of the Magical Items. I think the Soulknife is the more realistic version of this, instead of a Feat or PP for the Ki power source.
The Shadow power source is not infectious, nor is it an addictive power. The power comes from the Shadowfell and is, for certain, dark. What is won't be is a parallel to drug use. That is the feeling I get when you said this...
The Shadow power class will have the theme of Infection. Shadow magic should be grasping, addictive and degenerative.
I think the Races will be a mix between Psi races and some of the others that are not in yet. The Dromite, as I have said before, should be the small race of the PHB3. I think the Thri Kreen will be saved for Dark Sun. It is a race that became a staple in that setting, and was the mainstay for the Gladiator class.
I would hope the Gith would be one race, with the two "casts" determining stats and the Racial power, like how the Shifter is done.
The MM races should be saved for the latter PHB's and Setting guides. Stuff like the Kobold, Goblin, Gnoll, Ogre, and any other race the characters went against in the Baulder's Gate game.
There is no Touch AC but there is a range of 'Melee Touch'.
There is no touch AC. At all. There is AC, and the three defenses. (Fortitude, Reflex and Will) You can't have a touch attack when you don't have a target number to use for it. 4th edition simplified this, and did away with a lot of the confusing "touch, flatfooted, prone" issues.
3rd edition touch AC = 4th edition reflex defence.
QFT
There is no touch AC. At all. There is AC, and the three defenses. (Fortitude, Reflex and Will) You can't have a touch attack when you don't have a target number to use for it. 4th edition simplified this, and did away with a lot of the confusing "touch, flatfooted, prone" issues.
I'm thinking that's pretty much what Undrave said. He mentioned that there is no Touch AC. He then mentioned that there is now a range of melee touch, which means the power can be used on anything you can reach.
I'm not sure if you were just agreeing and expanding on what he said, or if there was actual mistaken disagreement there. I sure hope there wasn't mistaken disagreement.
-
Out of curiousity, who mentioned actually using Touch AC again anyway? I can't find such a reference anywhere.
Out of curiousity, who mentioned actually using Touch AC again anyway? I can't find such a reference anywhere.
I think thaX was arguing that the monk getting a lot of 'touch' (i.e. melee-range armour-ignoring) attacks was unlikely due to there being no 'Touch AC' any more, in reply to Axiomatic Badger's suggestion that such melee touch attacks might be the 4th edition ki power source's trademark.
Obviously, I disagree with this, since 4th edition does have the reflex defence, which is functionally identical to 3rd edition touch AC, as I've already pointed out. There are already several melee powers in 4th edition that target reflex, to simulate ignoring or punching through armour. E.g. the rogue's piercing strike. It is quite likely, IMO, that the 4th edition monk (and potentially other ki classes) will also have such powers, to simulate things like nerve-striking and to help make an essentially unarmed class competitive in melee against armoured foes.
Touch attacks in the previous edition was easier to hit than the Defenses in this new edition, no question about it. It was one of the reasons the Warlock was so good, having to hit Touch AC instead of full up AC. It was, of course, the Monk that had the best defense against this, since most of the time their touch and regular AC was the same.
Most of the time, it is magical spells that is using the Defenses instead of AC in this new edition. I think the Monk will use a lot of powers that target Fortitude and Reflex Defenses.
I'm not really sure how monsters compare to summoned creatures, maybe the class would alter the damage output and squishyness of the creature or whatever to make it more like a pet....
...I totally agree it: it's a fantastic idea for the Necromancer (in my opinion shadow controller with secondary role striker or leader)
so: the summoning of undead pets are powers with the Immediate Reaction trigger on "an enemy is reduced to 0 hp"
so, you're using the corps of your enemies to make undeads to protect and serve you
I just argue, if and how make different undeads from different types of monster (maybe it's only about description)
Hopefully we will get the official PHB3 soon! When it comes out, I am pre-ordering right away on Amazon.
Cool Beans!
"Make a Wish"
Whatever the Soulblade will be (Mindblade, Mindknife, or a Ki Soulblade), I expect it to be a full class.
The thing is, if there's a soulknife class that actually creates a weapon, then that weapon needs to be usabl as a normal weapon so that multiclassing makes sense. But if you're doing that, the question naturally arises as to why a soulblade is necessary to make the attacks at all. If we take the blade away from the class, we naturally arive at the Lurk class.
If we go the other way, saying that the blade can't be used for normal attacks, being too fantastic or magical for example, we arrive at the incarnate
.The Tattoo power type mechanic needs to stay with the previous edition, or be a specific class in a setting guide. Having it be a power source implement is not a good idea.
...
Why?
Tattoos are at least as common on Psi characters as crystals, if not more so, as well as being low profile for the players who want an implementless character. Best of all, the idea of removable, lootable tattoos already exists in the XPH, meaning they can be stocked as loot without any trouble.
There is no Touch attack AC anymore.
As Undrave said, I meant powers with a range of "Melee touch". My bad.
The Anime stylings of your theorized classes for the Ki classes might make a good RPG elsewhere, but I can't see it here in this brand. Avatar is a name for a form a god takes when he comes down upon the earth, not really the air benders your thinking of.
Funny, I wasn't thinking of them at all. Avatar I mixed together from the Incarnum book, Kensai and Weapons of Legacy, with a name that meant manifestation; his weapon becomes an extension of his soul.
Incarnate also comes from incarnum.
The Incarnate just sounds like a more complicated type of artificer that works with weapons like they are Warforged constructs in themselves. Interesting concept, but one that is more complicated than what this new edition is trying to be.
That's an awesome concept. It's also nothing like what I was trying to put forward.
Thematically, they're the Ki soulknife more than anything, but not limited to specific attack types since their blades aren't really weapons.
Mechanically, they're wizards with stances/pacts.
That's it.
The Shadow power source is not infectious, nor is it an addictive power. The power comes from the Shadowfell and is, for certain, dark. What is won't be is a parallel to drug use. That is the feeling I get when you said this...
I was aiming for "Dark Side of the Force".
Infectious is perhaps the wrong term, but I can easily imagine a character infecting his other powers with shadow magic to increase thier power. An eladrin could take a feat which inreases his fey step range if he burns a healing surge, for example.
Tatoos are not something that was used in the times that a fantasy world depicts as they are now, cheap art on skin. The power arcanist might have runes or such to highten their power, and I would see that as a feat. (something like in Pathfinder) Using them as an implement, though, seems a bit to much.
The dark side of the force? What, like the flip side to Arcane? Have you even seen the Warlock?
The Shadow Powersource isn't something that is trying to take over the universe. It is the people that stay in the shadows, and has others take the credit for heroics.
I think the main question is if Wizards wants to subvert their Parcel Treasure system by having a class that makes their own magical weapon. I would think that if an impliment would be used, it might be a miniature totem of the weapon in question, with the proper enchantments put on it for the Soulblade to have when created. I would think that the class could choose enchantments that would first be on the totem, then have the choice to transfer enchantments from other weapons he would find later on.
Some little charm or similar (likely crystal or precious metal) object could easily serve as the focus for a mindblade. As for why have a mindblade INSTEAD of a normal weapon, you could make normal attacks with it, but the reason you'd need it instead of other weapons could be because certain Psiknife powers might not function at all without it...much like being unable to use beast form druid powers UNLESS you're in beast form. Mindblades could be a single unchanging weapon type, only vaguely influenced by its apparent size and shape (again, just like the druid's wild shape). If a Psiknife wanted to use non-mindblade powers, they COULD use normal weapons if they wished, or stick with their mindblade if it'll do.
Tatoos are not something that was used in the times that a fantasy world depicts as they are now, cheap art on skin. The power arcanist might have runes or such to highten their power, and I would see that as a feat. (something like in Pathfinder) Using them as an implement, though, seems a bit to much.
I can see this line of reasoning. In 4e, the feel does seem more that such tattoos would be more like feats than implements. Honestly...I'm just not sure what to replace them with.
The dark side of the force? What, like the flip side to Arcane? Have you even seen the Warlock?
The Shadow Powersource isn't something that is trying to take over the universe. It is the people that stay in the shadows, and has others take the credit for heroics.
I really think he meant just the behavioral aspects of the Dark Side of the Force, rather than an actual flipside to anything. Then again, I didn't go back that far, so I could be totally wrong.
The dark side of the force? What, like the flip side to Arcane? Have you even seen the Warlock?
Well, that all strongly depends on how they plan on treating the Shadow power source.
If they treat it as they have with the Shadowcaster from 3.5e Tome of Magic (or Shadow Weave Magic from FR for that matter), then indeed, it will be the mirror of the Arcane power source.
However, you do make a valid point here. If there was to be a "darker" side to Arcane, it would be encompassed in the Warlock. Given WoTC new stance on alignment and such, I don't think they'd release a new power source thats use was primarily concerned with evil ends. Just like any other of the power sources, the Shadow source can be manipulated for both good or evil. You can't simply just assume that Shadow = "The stuff bad guys use"...
Admittedly, though, I do see this particular power source having a bit of a "forbidden" feel to it, to say nothing of "creepy"...
I think PHB 3 will contain Ki, Shadow, and Psionic.
Why?
Ki - We already know that the monk will be in PHB3.
Shadow - Current materials (manual of the planes) already have classes which contain the Shadow keyword.
Psionic - IIRC, Eberron will be coming out around the same time; psionics (IMO) are a big part of Eberron; as such, it seems natural that the two products would come out around the same time.
Races? This one is tougher, but perhaps a full PC write up of Warforged. I know that there is online material which has already done this, but there are quite a few people -myself included- who do not subscribe to insider; also, I think there are some balance concerns with some of the current Warforged material available.
Aside from Warforged, I have no idea, but I'd like to see Grippli as a race.
Races? This one is tougher, but perhaps a full PC write up of Warforged. I know that there is online material which has already done this, but there are quite a few people -myself included- who do not subscribe to insider; also, I think there are some balance concerns with some of the current Warforged material available.
Aside from Warforged, I have no idea, but I'd like to see Grippli as a race.
Warforged are already being reprinted in EPG, so they likely won't appear in PHB3.
This leaves the Shadow p/s with shadow, necrotic and similar effects. I have made some changes to my PHB3 ToC:
Contents
INTRODUCTION
The Ki Power Source
Ki Powers are called Techniques
The Psionic Power Source
Psionic Powers are called Manifestations
The Shadow Power Source
Shadow Powers are called Mysteries
1: CHARACTER RACES
Changeling
Elan
Gith ('yanki/'zerai)
Illumian
Wildren
Racial Paragon Paths
2: CHARACTER CLASSES
Ardent – Psionic leader
Shadowcaster – Shadow controller
Lurk – Psionic striker
Monk – Ki striker
Necromancer – Shadow leader
Warmind – Psionic defender
Sohei – Ki defender
Psion – Psionic controller
3: CHARACTER OPTIONS
Hybrid Classes
Feats
Heroic Tier Feats
Paragon Tier Feats
Epic Tier Feats
Multiclass Feats
Bloodline Feats
Adventuring Gear
Magic Items
Armor
Weapons
Crystals - Psionic Implement
Rods
Staffs
Tomes
Wands
Wraps - Ki Implement
Wondrous Items
Rituals
Variant Ritual Books
Ritual Descriptions
APPENDIX: RULE UPDATES
GLOSSARY
INDEX
Bolded names are my guesses.
Bel
I think the main question is if Wizards wants to subvert their Parcel Treasure system by having a class that makes their own magical weapon. I would think that if an impliment would be used, it might be a miniature totem of the weapon in question, with the proper enchantments put on it for the Soulblade to have when created. I would think that the class could choose enchantments that would first be on the totem, then have the choice to transfer enchantments from other weapons he would find later on.
How would having a class that uses implements for weapon attacks subvert the parcel system? Sure, they'd have to use implement enchants instead of weapon enchants, but that just adds flavour.
The dark side of the force? What, like the flip side to Arcane? Have you even seen the Warlock?
No, I'm talking about it being addictive. Anyone who ever tries shadow magic will forever after feel the urge to use it again.
And what does the "I learn my spells from extraplanar tutors" class have to do with anything?
It is the people that stay in the shadows, and has others take the credit for heroics.
Blarg??????
What the hell does power source have to do with the amount of attention a character wants???
Power source defines how the powers work, with a minor in how they're gained. That's it.
That is almost as bad as the plot to the Dungeon and Dragons movie.
Soulknife -- The implement would be more like a holy symbol, and the weapon itself would be created from nothing. I had not even mentioned my idea when I theorized about the nerf to the Parcel System, that is in the next sentence.
I think if WoTC wanted to differentiate the Power Sources even more this be a nice way to do it.
Not really needed here.
As a power source side effect, though, it seems to be something that would hender the player and make the power source a less attractive choice.
It might be better as a class mechanic instead, perhaps one of the ill conceived classes in the later books of 3.5.
Bua? Why not, there is no statement anywhere that a Power Source couldn't be addictive. Heck, a hugely common trope in fantasy is that something like magic, supernatural ability, etc. becomes addictive and the character seeks out more and more.
I think if WoTC wanted to differentiate the Power Sources even more this be a nice way to do it.
See: Vaarsuvius from the webcomic The Order of the Stick. He currently appears to be more than a little addicted to the power of
See also: The movie Dragonslayer. In that movie, a wizard's apprentice, Galen, gains access to an amulet containing power. However, he faces a dilemma, in which he must choose between keeping the addictive power of the amulet, or destroying it (and his master with it) t slay the dragon Vermithrax. He acts addicted to the amulet.
See also: The Lord of the Rings. Frodo is highly addicted to the corrupting power of the One Ring.
See: Star Wars. The power of the Force can be addictive, something the Dark Side exploits and tries to persuade, and the Light Side forsakes and attempts to dissuade.
Really, I could go on. But yes, magic is quite commonly shown to be addictive, as any power can be. Money, political power, authority beyond politics (i.e. cops, city guard, a teacher or principal, etc), a gun or other weapon, and so on, can all be addictive in the same manner as magical power is oft portrayed.
I think the 'addictive' nature of shadow power could be a nice fluff inclusion, but I wouldn't want to be punish for choosing a Shadow class.
Oh I agree, which is why in my above comment both giving in and not gives a benefit. It is up to the player to decide to go along with the fluff with this, if they choose. So they can, "punish" themselves as much as they wish.
Certain Powers could benefit more from one or the other and be fluffed as such too. Same with feats too.
I think the 'addictive' nature of shadow power could be a nice fluff inclusion, but I wouldn't want to be punish for choosing a Shadow class.
If it were mechanical, and not merely fluff, it would out of necessity require some sort of increase in raw power or in versatility in exchange for whatever mechanic encompasses the "addictive" bit. You wouldn't be punished for choosing Shadow, per se, but rather you'd be punished for the comparable increase in power gained.
ETA: Actually, it would be a good idea if the exchange were optional, either upon creation, or with each use of a power. For example, a class feature choice, where one is simply an increase in power as is standard, and the other gives you a larger power increase, but a penalty to go with. Alternatively, each power gives you a choice: cast it as normal, or cast it with an increased power level, but with a specific penalty.
ETA: Actually, it would be a good idea if the exchange were optional, either upon creation, or with each use of a power. For example, a class feature choice, where one is simply an increase in power as is standard, and the other gives you a larger power increase, but a penalty to go with. Alternatively, each power gives you a choice: cast it as normal, or cast it with an increased power level, but with a specific penalty.
That be cool, if they could figure out a balanced way to do a sort of "combo system" be neat for it. In that the quicker you use these powers and frequency in a certain period of time you gain a higher increase in power but increased penalty. Nice way to showcase diving even deeper into it.
If it were mechanical, and not merely fluff, it would out of necessity require some sort of increase in raw power or in versatility in exchange for whatever mechanic encompasses the "addictive" bit. You wouldn't be punished for choosing Shadow, per se, but rather you'd be punished for the comparable increase in power gained.
ETA: Actually, it would be a good idea if the exchange were optional, either upon creation, or with each use of a power. For example, a class feature choice, where one is simply an increase in power as is standard, and the other gives you a larger power increase, but a penalty to go with. Alternatively, each power gives you a choice: cast it as normal, or cast it with an increased power level, but with a specific penalty.
What about...
*Add Shadow-type to an attack and daze one target, but you grant combat advantage til end of next turn.
*+2 to damage, -2 to attack, dazed til end of next turn.
*Spend healing surge after extended rest. +1 Shadow damage per surge to all attacks until next extended rest. One target per attack.
Maybe as a channel divinity-type class feature. Or built into powers as you suggest (might be nice for multiclassing).
If it's a class feature choice and you're choosing between augmentable or just normal.........it probably shouldn't be a class feature. If Shadow power is supposed to be dark and tempting, the choice should be between how you can augment it, not whether, right? Otherwise it should just remain a feat-type option requiring Shadow power source.
In that the quicker you use these powers and frequency in a certain period of time you gain a higher increase in power but increased penalty.
Oh, that's neat to look at the time factor. Like, some type of augment/penalty pair if you use dailies back to back or something? I don't know that it would be fair to just add to cumulative modifiers every time a Shadow character uses powers, though. Ha.....
Sorceress: "What's wrong with the shadowy dude?"
Fighter: "Oh, he's just tipsy cause he used his at-will powers too many times." :D
Oh, that's neat to look at the time factor. Like, some type of augment/penalty pair if you use dailies back to back or something? I don't know that it would be fair to just add to cumulative modifiers every time a Shadow character uses powers, though. Ha.....
Sorceress: "What's wrong with the shadowy dude?"
Fighter: "Oh, he's just tipsy cause he used his at-will powers too many times." :D
Yeah, thus why I was wondering about how it be balanced.
Also with Arcane Power's release it seems a safe bet that there will not be an Illusionist class since it's not a fairly well fleshed out build for Wizards.
Races such as the Duergar, Gith and some good abberant beings thrown in for good measure.
Changeling
Elan
Gith, one race, two variations
Illumians
Wildren
And as for the Illusionist, I'm not thoroughly convinced it's gone, but the Arcane Power build and the Dragon article from a while back seem to lead in that direction.
Bel
Well based on the wording of the PH3 race preview put out today we'll likely see races and classes that have a theme around the Far Realm (either for or against it).
I don't know how much we should make of that, really. I mean, they also claim in the article that they started that theme in PH2. Huh? Oh yeah, they mean that one Druid PP I guess...