Have there been any leaks on what we'll see?
I hope they bring the minotaur out of the savage scene and give them more of a warrior feel. I'd also like to see a racial PP around horn charging. Mabye a way to recover their gore attack (with AP maybe).
How about you?
But non-str classes can use the minotaur. A constitution bonus is useful for a multitude of classes, such as warlock, or shaman.
But non-str classes can use the minotaur. A constitution bonus is useful for a multitude of classes, such as warlock, or shaman.
Who will also miss out on the racial power past the first couple levels, and will have no use for Ferocity unless they take a feat. The minotaur should be a great warlock (the article has a freakin' minotaur warlock on it), but the +CON is the only thing the minotaur gives to a non-specialised warlock or shaman.
- Ferocity: Oh goody, a melee basic attack. Guess how many classes that's useful to...
- Heedless Charge: Oh goody, a bonus to AC when I charge to make a... melee basic attack.
- Goring Charge: A standard action racial power which makes me charge into melee. Joy.
Seriously, if you plan on actually being able to actually make use of any of your racial features, you need to play a STR-based, weapon-using, melee character, and that is way too restrictive for a 4E race.
[plug="shameless"] For more information, see the minotaur fix in my sig. [/plug]
But I do think we have evidence to assume they're not going to suck as hard in the PHB3. If you check out the Revenant article, you'll see that a Revenant who was a Minotaur can get pick up a feat that gives them Ferocity, but it doesn't let them make only a melee basic attack. It allows them to make any basic attack. This is significantly better. Not perfect because it still forces implement-users to select specific at-will powers, but it's still a big step in the right direction...
the problem is that their patron is as likely to be an evil deity or demon lord (Baphomet) as it is to be a good one (Bahamut). Just a curious thought.
I tried explaining the difference between them to a bahamut worshipping minotaur- he was immidiately confused by the similarity of the names.
Anyone else wondering if the PHB3 Minotaur might be more orientated towards the Divine Souce classes? Cleric, Paladin, Invoker, Avenger, whatever's coming out in PHB3? Their description in the Monster Manual describes them as a pretty religious race, with theocracy being the norm- the problem is that their patron is as likely to be an evil deity or demon lord (Baphomet) as it is to be a good one (Bahamut). Just a curious thought.
I want to play a minotaur paladin so I hope they release something to help me achieve that (as in make it "look" more reasonable). But even a favored soul (please wisards
) would suit.Maybe give them some a feat that lets them use their at-wills with a charge. Sorcerors are half way there with Sorcerous Blade Channeling.
Hmn.. minotaur Str-based sorcerors or clerics could be fun.
Maybe give them some a feat that lets them use their at-wills with a charge. Sorcerors are half way there with Sorcerous Blade Channeling.
A STR based Paladin/Cleric and Sorcerer is already a viable option for the Minotaur. And I would bet that one or more of the 4 Psionic classes will be a viable option as well.
I dont know why it sounds funny to me but something like Radiant Gore - Your Gore attack does Radiant damage. Guess its lack of sleep
A Radiant Charge would be pretty spiffy. Horns all glowing with holy light as you gore a vampire in the name of righteousness.
A STR based Paladin/Cleric and Sorcerer is already a viable option for the Minotaur.
What? No. Sorcerer is most definitely not a viable option for the Minotaur as it currently stands. The Sorcerer is an implement-using, ranged class. Unless you play a very specialized melee build, the Minotaur is not a good race for the Sorcerer, and you should never be required to play specific builds in order to be able to make use of your racial features.
While playing Jak the Barbarian was fun for me, I know that playing Jak the Sorcerer would not be. Which is strange. Dragonborn make great Barbarians as well as great Sorcerers. Warforged make great Barbarians and still can be decent infernal Warlocks (all that temp hp!). But when you play as a Minotaur, you lose out on racial features by playing as anything except in-your-face weapon-users.
Echoing what's already been said, I hope they fixed the Minotaur not to make it so melee focused. I mean, look at it:
- Ferocity: Oh goody, a melee basic attack. Guess how many classes that's useful to...
- Heedless Charge: Oh goody, a bonus to AC when I charge to make a... melee basic attack.
- Goring Charge: A standard action racial power which makes me charge into melee. Joy.
Seriously, if you plan on actually being able to actually make use of any of your racial features, you need to play a STR-based, weapon-using, melee character, and that is way too restrictive for a 4E race.
[plug="shameless"] For more information, see the minotaur fix in my sig. [/plug]
But I do think we have evidence to assume they're not going to suck as hard in the PHB3. If you check out the Revenant article, you'll see that a Revenant who was a Minotaur can get pick up a feat that gives them Ferocity, but it doesn't let them make only a melee basic attack. It allows them to make any basic attack. This is significantly better. Not perfect because it still forces implement-users to select specific at-will powers, but it's still a big step in the right direction...
I get the impression you don't play any minotaurs.
My minotaur fighter has Rhino Strike, which by the way would work with heedless charge if he drew any OA's from the using the power. Knock Down Strike or whatever it's called from the PH Heros cards can be used for a charge, again Heedless Charge comes into play. Ferocity is a pre-rec for Brutal Ferocity, which allows a Minotaur to use an At-Will attack when reduced to zero hit points. Shield Bash can be used for a charge, again Heedless Charge comes into play. Heedless charge stacks with Defensive Mobility.
Goring Charge is it's own reward.
Minotaurs are a race of natural melee fighters. Just like Eladrin are born thinkers, Human are natural jacks of all trades and Halflings are natural rogues.
A Radiant Charge would be pretty spiffy. Horns all glowing with holy light as you gore a vampire in the name of righteousness.
Yes! Thats what I want for my Mino-ladin.
I get the impression you don't play any minotaurs.
My minotaur fighter has Rhino Strike, which by the way would work with heedless charge if he drew any OA's from the using the power. Knock Down Strike or whatever it's called from the PH Heros cards can be used for a charge, again Heedless Charge comes into play. Ferocity is a pre-rec for Brutal Ferocity, which allows a Minotaur to use an At-Will attack when reduced to zero hit points. Shield Bash can be used for a charge, again Heedless Charge comes into play. Heedless charge stacks with Defensive Mobility.
Goring Charge is it's own reward.
Minotaurs are a race of natural melee fighters. Just like Eladrin are born thinkers, Human are natural jacks of all trades and Halflings are natural rogues.
But they should at least be serviceable in any class. Their all-melee racial features make that questionable; I can't think of another race besides maybe the gnoll whose racial powers become completely useless based on class choice.
I get the impression you don't play any minotaurs.
On the contrary. I absolutely love Minotaurs.
My minotaur fighter
That's exactly my point. You played a Minotaur Fighter. That's one of the classes for which a Minotaur works. Here's an incomplete list of characters that the Minotaur can't make work:
WIS Cleric, Archer Ranger, Warlock, Wizard, ranged Bard, Invoker, Shaman, Sorcerer, and ranged Artificer.
That's a long and very limiting list.
The reason is that Ferocity is useless unless you're actually capable of making a melee basic attack, meaning you have a weapon and are a melee character. The reason is that Heedless Charge is useless unless you actually want to charge, meaning you make a melee basic attack, meaning you have a weapon and are a melee character. The reason is that you never want to use Goring Charge unless your class and party role actually involves your being in melee.
Ferocity is a pre-rec for Brutal Ferocity, which allows a Minotaur to use an At-Will attack when reduced to zero hit points.
FSBNNR
Goring Charge is it's own reward.
Not if you're a Shaman or a Wizard or a Warlock, just for example. Those classes want never to be in melee. That's not their class or party role. You really think it's a good idea for such a character to spend a standard action to use Goring Charge instead of using it for fulfill their class and party role? You really think it's a good idea for any of these classes to get into melee?
Minotaurs are a race of natural melee fighters. Just like Eladrin are born thinkers, Human are natural jacks of all trades and Halflings are natural rogues.
This is a completely flawed analogy. Eladrin can play whatever class they want and do it well because their racial features don't assume or require that they be a member of any specific class or party role. You don't have to be a member of an INT-using class in order to benefit a save bonus versus charms or Low-Light vision or encounter teleportation. And if it weren't for how badly handled Small size was, you'd find the same of the Halfling, as no class like to take opportunity attacks when they do something risky, and every class benefits from a save bonus versus fear effects and making enemies re-roll an attack against them.
On the flip side, NOT every class can make a melee basic attack for Ferocity, NOT every class wants to charge into melee, and NOT every class charges into melee as part of their party role.
There's a very big difference between being able to do something really well and not being able to do anything else even passably.
or a Wizard or a Warlock, just for example. Those classes want never to be in melee.
Strange that so many wizard and warlock players all went nuts over the feat allowing them to use their MM/EB as a melee basic attack.
Strange that so many wizard and warlock players all went nuts over the feat allowing them to use their MM/EB as a melee basic attack.
So that those players could play a specific concept. And it has a feat cost (as well it should). Which means for those entire classes the minotaur race has a feat cost attached to it to get 2/3 of its racial features (goring charge is still useless).
I don't expect what has already been printed to change too much. I do expect to see more feats, a paragon path or two, perhaps another epic destiny.
I expect the opposite, that the changes will make the previous material for the Minotaur obsolete, and have it more viable to the player as well as working better with the more distance oriented classes.
Whenever a race or class is published that has a "test" or "exclusive" from the DDi, expect some changes, and expect the previous material to be superseded, like being an update or errata change.
I expect the opposite, that the changes will make the previous material for the Minotaur obsolete, and have it more viable to the player as well as working better with the more distance oriented classes.
Whenever a race or class is published that has a "test" or "exclusive" from the DDi, expect some changes, and expect the previous material to be superseded, like being an update or errata change.
Playtests will likely change, as their entire purpose is to see what does and doesn't work. Previews might change, though usually only to make language more clear (functionally pre-release errata). However, the DDi minotaur is neither. It is technically speaking a fully published race. WotC might expand the function of its racial traits (ferocity as any basic attack, maybe even goring charge as pick STR/CON/DEX), but there shouldn't be any overt changes or the race gets screwed up for those already happy with it.
Also as there are a total of 3 races with the STR+CON ability combination, I really don't see a problem with one of them being a more specialized race. Minotaur works great for most melee classes, and with the right feats/powers can be interesting choices for non-melee builds that make use of STR and/or CON. Don't like it, then play something else.
And dont point out Hurl Breath, because, of course, FSBNNR.
Crimson, consider a Dragonborn or Bladling wizard, Shaman, or Invoker- basically any class that doesn't want to come close enough to the action to use his dragonsbreath.
And dont point out Hurl Breath, because, of course, FSBNNR.
Dragonborn and Bladelings have racial features are powers that are useful for any class (unless even CON is completely ignored. As some wizards do, but at least the attempt was made). And the racial power, a minor, which means for that one round the wizard/shaman/invoker is in combat it can use the racial power, move away, and then use a standard to use a power that it actually cares about.
Also as there are a total of 3 races with the STR+CON ability combination, I really don't see a problem with one of them being a more specialized race.
I don't see a problem with that either. The problem comes from the fact that it's overly specialized to the point where it can't really do anything else reasonably well.
Minotaur works great for most melee classes, and with the right feats/powers can be interesting choices for non-melee builds that make use of STR and/or CON.
Exactly. In order to play a non-melee class, you need to take specific feats and powers and class options and builds in order to play a reasonable Minotaur. No other (well-designed) race playing against type has to do this. Elves that decide not to play archers don't have to pick up a feat in order to make Wild Step useful, a Goliath who wants to play a ranged spell-caster doesn't have to select specific powers in order to make use of Stone's Endurance, and a Dragonborn who wants to play a Wizard still gets his Draconic Heritage bonus.
Don't like it, then play something else.
That is not a reasonable answer. One of the basic 4E racial design philosophy was supposed to be that every race can play any class reasonably well. The Minotaur does not do that, because unless it plays a weapon-using, melee class, it effectively has no racial features at all.
Crimson, consider a Dragonborn or Bladling wizard, Shaman, or Invoker- basically any class that doesn't want to come close enough to the action to use his dragonsbreath.
They're perfect, actually. As Minor actions, they don't actually interfere with such a character accomplishing it class and party role, so there's no problem. They're not as useful to ranged characters, of course, but it's not as though when the situation comes up that they are in melee such a character still won't want to use its racial power. That's exactly when their racial power will be useful. By contrast, even when the opportunity is up, a Minotaur Wizard, for instance, won't want to use Goring charge because that would (A) take him into melee and (B) waste his standard action not fulfilling his class and party role.
And dont point out Hurl Breath, because, of course, FSBNNR.
Completely agreed! :D
Maybe the PHB3 write-up will reflect that DL influence better than the Playing article in Dragon.
Bel
So, what some of you really want is for the Minotaur to ignore the fact that they are born with natural melee weapons and abilities.
Yes, the exact same way that Elves ignore the fact that they are born with natural ranged weapon abilities, and the exact same way that Dragonborn and Tiefling ignore the fact that they are born with natural arcane spell-casting ability, and the same way that Goliath ignore the fact they they are born with natural primal melee ability.
Racial feats/powers reflect the nature of the race, most player races have long traditions of different classes, the minotaur with the exception of the Dragonlance setting has been mostly a melee based culture.
Yes, again, just like Elves have a long tradition of being Archer Rangers and Halflings have a long tradition of being Rogues. Notice that their racial feature do reflect that without pigeon-holing them into needing to play those classes in order to benefit from those racial features.
It's not suggesting that anything be done with the Minotaur that wasn't done to every other race. Right now, it's actually the Minotaur that does not follow the design pattern.
With blaster classes, you could give them a feat that lets them convert their charge into a ranged attack made of force or something.
Pet-users? Let them give the charge to their pet.
I want to play a minotaur paladin so I hope they release something to help me achieve that (as in make it "look" more reasonable). But even a favored soul (please wisards
Favored Soul is an Avenger PP in Divine Power; it's extremely unlikely to show up as a separate class.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090615b
The changes will come, no matter what kind of label the Minotaur article had. For a majority of the people, Dragon does not exist, since it is not on a shelf at the store.
Except that the publishers, AKA WotC, do considerer Dragon a fully official publication. If they make any major changes to the Minotaur in PH3 they would be undermining their own stance. Thus if there are any changes they will likely be subtle.
I would just push feats for this. Normally I'm against using feats to plug holes, but the minotaur as a concept is so melee-heavy that I think it's fair to make them do a bit of sacrifice for it, in exchange for some interesting abilities.
With blaster classes, you could give them a feat that lets them convert their charge into a ranged attack made of force or something.
Pet-users? Let them give the charge to their pet.
Or they could make the base racial abilities fall in-line with the rest of the core races and make them useful for any class, then add melee-based feats for those who want to specialize. This way no one ever has to take feats to patch their non-melee build but have the option to get melee racial abilities.
Except that the publishers, AKA WotC, do considerer Dragon a fully official publication. If they make any major changes to the Minotaur in PH3 they would be undermining their own stance. Thus if there are any changes they will likely be subtle.
The revenant article gave a different version of teh minotaur's racial ability that took out the melee-only requirement. There is a good chance this reflects a redesign of the race.
The revenant article gave a different version of teh minotaur's racial ability that took out the melee-only requirement. There is a good chance this reflects a redesign of the race.
Which is a subtle change, in fact it's not really a change, it's an expansion. Nothing about eliminating the melee restriction invalidates the Dragon version, yet it also opens the minotaur up to new possibilities.
Or they could make the base racial abilities fall in-line with the rest of the core races and make them useful for any class, then add melee-based feats for those who want to specialize. This way no one ever has to take feats to patch their non-melee build but have the option to get melee racial abilities.
So what generic, class-neutral abilities would you give to a bovine furry that likes mazes?
So what generic, class-neutral abilities would you give to a bovine furry that likes mazes?
Like the one in the revenant acticle: give them abilities that grant attacks, not just melee attacks. Give them bonuses against attacks when running, not just charging into melee.
They gave other races (dragonborn, tiefling) "fury" based racial features without tying them to melee: do the same for the minotaur.
The thing is that half-orcs and such don't have giant horns on their heads which are suited for goring. :P
? lol. What does that have to do with anything?
? lol. What does that have to do with anything?
Minotaurs have giant melee weapons on their heads, half-orcs do not. They are not equivalent for the racial discussion.
It's like if dragonborn were always depicted with fire in their jaws but had no breath weapon.
Minotaurs have giant melee weapons on their heads, half-orcs do not. They are not equivalent for the racial discussion.
Lol. But i never mentioned half-orcs!
It's like if dragonborn were always depicted with fire in their jaws but had no breath weapon.
Dragonborn look like they should have a bite and claw attack but they don't. Tieflings have giant horns at least the size of minotaurs and they dont get a charge attack. The fact that the minotaur has horns has zero bearing on whether all of its racial powers should revolve around melee.
However reading others say they want to see them in classes such as cleric, sharman and warlock has made me realise that they do need to be changed. I don't think their gore attack should be removed because that is their bread and butter. however any other changes would ok by me.
Dragonborn look like they should have a bite and claw attack but they don't. Tieflings have giant horns at least the size of minotaurs and they dont get a charge attack. The fact that the minotaur has horns has zero bearing on whether all of its racial powers should revolve around melee.
Bullfighting gave minotaurs typical bull charge powers. Halfdragons are more known for breathing flames than biting people, so they went for the iconic ability. Minotaurs, however, have the iconic feature "it's a bull on 2 legs." This let to the strength bonus, the Con bonus, and the "I saw red" bull charge.
If they make any major changes to the Minotaur in PH3 they would be undermining their own stance.
So what? I'd rather they undermine that stance and fix the minotaur than keep that stance and leave it so badly designed. A company admitting it did a bad job and changing something to make it more in line with what they promised is not a bad thing. It shows integrity.
Not to mention, of course, the fact that the current design of the Minotaur already undermines their own stance on how PC races were to be designed for this edition...
Or they could make the base racial abilities fall in-line with the rest of the core races and make them useful for any class, then add melee-based feats for those who want to specialize. This way no one ever has to take feats to patch their non-melee build but have the option to get melee racial abilities.
Q.F.T.
Which is a subtle change, in fact it's not really a change, it's an expansion.
An expansion is a change, and in this case, it's a very good change. It makes the race more flexible and better in line with the stated design goals without actually making it any more powerful.
So what generic, class-neutral abilities would you give to a bovine furry that likes mazes?
One of their Dragon racial feats gives them a completely class- and role-neutral attack and damage bonus when bloodied, ferocity could trigger more than just a melee basic attack, a bonus to checks made to avoid being lost, Goring charge could require something other than a standard action so that it doesn't get in the way of a character fulfilling its party role. There's really any number of very appropriate and flavorful things that they could get.
I don't think their gore attack should be removed because that is their bread and butter.
They don't need to remove it. They just need to change it not to be so utterly useless to anybody who isn't a member of a melee class role. A simple solution is to remove the charge requirement and make it a minor action. Problem solved.
So what? I'd rather they undermine that stance and fix the minotaur than keep that stance and leave it so badly designed. A company admitting it did a bad job and changing something to make it more in line with what they promised is not a bad thing. It shows integrity.
WotC isn't above admitting to mistakes, and they aren't above fixing those mistakes either, but if at all possible they want to avoid outright errata unless the mechanics as they stand are completely unplayable. The minotaur's traits may be expanded upon, but changes that would in any way invalidate the currant racial write up are unlikely. Anything more overt will be a feat.
Not to mention, of course, the fact that the current design of the Minotaur already undermines their own stance on how PC races were to be designed for this edition...
You keep quoting this supposed promise the designers made, but I think you're still misrepresenting them. The design quotes I recall were that races wouldn't have drawbacks, which was mostly made in reference to negative ability modifiers. I May not agree with your stance on small races, but you make a better point with those than with the minotaur. Minotaurs are all bonus, those bonuses might not be desirable to all class/build concepts, but lack of functional benefit is a neutral state not a penalty.
They don't need to remove it. They just need to change it not to be so utterly useless to anybody who isn't a member of a melee class role. A simple solution is to remove the charge requirement and make it a minor action. Problem solved.
I could see removing the charge requirement, allowing for standing gores attacks, which for me would be another one of those sublet changes. Making it a minor action though I could never agree with. I already loath the fact that the dragonborn's breath attack is a minor, always makes it feel more like a cough or a sneeze then a proper breath weapon to me.
Minotaur (PEACH) Take Three.
THE MINOTAUR
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 Squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Perception
Gore: You gain a gore attack. (see below)
Natural Cunning: If an effect would reduce your reflex defence you ignore the effect to your reflex defence (any other defence reduced by the same effect is still reduced)
Tauric Hostility(Minotaur Racial Power)
Encounter
Minor Action, personal
Effect: Chose STR or CON. You use this ability every time you use this power and it can not be canged. Add your STR/CON modifier to your next damage roll. If your attack missed, you deal damage equal to you STR/CON.
Gore: You gain a gore weapon attack. Treat this weapon as a spear. It deals 1d8 damage, but if you charge with your attack it deals +2 damage (+4 at 21st level)
For a majority of the people, Dragon does not exist
This is true, and has always been.
since it is not on a shelf at the store.
This reason you offer, on the other hand, is not. It's not the fact that you can't buy it in a store, it's the fact that only a minority of players ever have or will buy/subscribe, whether in a store or online.
It doesn't have Ferocity. Ferocity is my single favorite part about the current minotaur (even as poorly thought out as it is).
Thats why I left it out. I thought the hostility would be a good representation of a minotaurs savage side while giving it use for non-melee.
Thats why I left it out. I thought the hostility would be a good representation of a minotaurs savage side while giving it use for non-melee.
It is very different from Ferocity, and in the hands of a Barbarian, Fighter, Warden, Ranger, or Paladin, very strong.
an extra 4-5 damage isn't that strong, is it? But it lets minotaurs have an option other the the ones you mentioned. Which is what almost everyone posting wants to see.
It's not the fact that you can't buy it in a store, it's the fact that only a minority of players ever have or will buy/subscribe, whether in a store or online.
My point is that less people will subscribe to DDi for the mags. It is likely that a clear 3/4 of the current subscribers did so for the tools, not the mags, and half of those don't even read the mags that much, if at all.
Hmn.. minotaur Str-based sorcerors or clerics could be fun.
Maybe give them some a feat that lets them use their at-wills with a charge. Sorcerors are half way there with Sorcerous Blade Channeling.
You mean Sorcerers are already there with Reaper's Touch. Gives Acid Orb and Dragonfrost the ability to be used as Melee Basic Attacks which is just great for a melee focused Sorcerer.
What? No. Sorcerer is most definitely not a viable option for the Minotaur as it currently stands. The Sorcerer is an implement-using, ranged class. Unless you play a very specialized melee build, the Minotaur is not a good race for the Sorcerer, and you should never be required to play specific builds in order to be able to make use of your racial features.
Actually, it's VERY easy to make a melee range Sorcerer. In fact the Dragon Magic Sorcerer is all about getting in the thick of battle. Give them leather armour and take utilities that boost defenses and they deal sick damage with their burst attacks and thanks to the feat Sorcerous Blade Channeling and Reaper's Touch, well they won't be provoking AO's when using their powers when adjacent to their opponent.
It's a VERY viable Sorcerer build. Really, it is part of what makes the Sorcerer such a versatile class.
Try a gnome guardian fighter, or a tiefling primal guardian druid, or a halfling wrathful invoker, or a goliath wild sorcerer, or an elf resourceful warlord. They are just suboptimal choices not likely to be played unless someone has their mind dead set on trying to make one work, and even then they would "require" a lot of feats, and still be suboptimal compared to other race choices for the class.
Some races such as minotaur have a more severe case of being pigeonholed into a role, but with as many racial choices as there are, I don't necessarily think it's a terrible flaw. Every race will have some roles they excel in, and some they are not well suited for.
Having said all that, more choices are always good, and a few tweaks could change the minotaur into a more versatile race.
Give the Minotaur the racial power Bellow.
Bellow (Minotaur Racial Power)
You take a deep breath and let out an almighty roar, reminding your foe of just how savage you can be.
Encounter ♦ Fear
Minor Action Close burst 3
Target: One creature in burst
Attack: Strength +2 vs. Will, Constitution +2 vs. Will, or Dexterity +2 vs. Will
Increase to +4 at 11th level and +6 at 21st level.
Hit: 1d6 + Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity modifier damage and you push the target 1 square. If the target is adjacent to you, you deal an additional 1d6 damage and you push the target 2 squares
Increase to 2d6 + Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity modifier at 11th level, and to 3d6+ Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
Special: When you create your character, choose Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity as the ability score you use when making attack rolls and damage rolls with this power. This choice remains throughout your character’s life and does not change the power’s other effects.
To explain “Bellow”, the Minotaur lets out a mighty roar and puts the Fear of Him into the guy he’s roaring at. It’s at a range comparable to the Dragonborn racial power (with the possibility of a racial feat extending the range to 5 squares (or maybe even 10, like one of the feats in the “Ecology of the Dragonborn” article does)). Being a Close attack, it can be used at any range from 1 to 3 (or more) which has no more bias on “Meleeing” or “Ranging” than the Dragonborn. I also have added in an additional effect that occurs against an adjacent opponent, to represent the Minotaur not only bellowing, but shoving his horns forward. This does put a bias on Meleeing, but I believe that having a power that works at close-up and at range, but leans towards close-up, is still preferable to a power that works at close-up, no range possible.
I enjoyed the series, the sourcebooks, and my minotaur from that setting. Very Klingon meets Rome IMO and I miss it. The minotaur that are in the game now are just Baphomet thugs. I must rather have Sargonnas ;)
Anything more overt will be a feat.
If they do, that will be a big mistake.
Feats should be nice, not required.
The design quotes I recall were that races wouldn't have drawbacks, which was mostly made in reference to negative ability modifiers.
I'm not referring to those design quotes. I'm referring to the ones stating that every race would actually be viable as a member of any class and not pigeon-holed into specific character concepts like race back in 3.5 were.
Minotaurs are all bonus, those bonuses might not be desirable to all class/build concepts, but lack of functional benefit is a neutral state not a penalty.
And this is why I still consider Minotaurs to have been better dealt with than Small size was. The problem though is that there are two different design goals under discussion here. The first is that races shouldn't ever get penalties; Minotaurs don't, so we're golden here. That one's not relevant to this discussion. The second is that race shouldn't be pigeon-holed into playing specific classes or roles; that's the one that Minotaurs break. Because all of their racial features are only usable if you're a weapon-using, melee class, you effectively have no racial features at all and are therefore very, very underpowered if you decide to play something a bit more outside the box.
I could see removing the charge requirement, allowing for standing gores attacks, which for me would be another one of those sublet changes. Making it a minor action though I could never agree with. I already loath the fact that the dragonborn's breath attack is a minor, always makes it feel more like a cough or a sneeze then a proper breath weapon to me.
I can see where you coming from with that idea conceptually speaking, but the reasons that Dragon Breath is a minor action and that the Minotaur's Gore should be a minor action is actually just a mechanical concern. If you make somebody use up their standard action, you're denying them from the action they should normally be using to fulfill their class and party role, and that is a problem. I don't disagree with you conceptually that a standard action would make both racial powers seem more significant, but making them a standard action just gets in the way of what their class and role should be doing.
You mean Sorcerers are already there with Reaper's Touch. Gives Acid Orb and Dragonfrost the ability to be used as Melee Basic Attacks which is just great for a melee focused Sorcerer.
Feats should be nice, not required.
You will not find many racial features at all that a character needs to take a feat to make useful.
Actually, it's VERY easy to make a melee range Sorcerer.
Irrelevant. It doesn't matter than you can make one. What matters is that they aren't one by default. They are an implement-using, ranged class. If you have to play specific builds in order to make something work, then that's because it didn't work to begin with.
I understand wanting a race that can play any class and any build, but I don't even think the system is designed that way.
But the system is designed that way for everybody but the Minotaur (with a few other minor exceptions here and there). Just open your PHB and you'll see that none of the races in there are pigeon-holed into playing any particular class.
Try a gnome guardian fighter
Ignoring the small size problem, Gnomes make perfectly viable Fighters of every kind. Every Fighter benefits from Low-Light vision. Every Fighter likes having Ghost Sound as an encounter power regardless of build. Every Fighter can benefit from making stealth checks when they make initiative checks. No Fighter needs to take a feat in order to make a +5 save bonus versus illusions useful. Fighters don't have to get specific items in order to make Fade Away a worthwhile power.
or a tiefling primal guardian druid
If your Tiefling Druid ever makes an attack roll, it benefits from a +1 bonus to hit if the target is bloodied without needing to take any feats. If your Tiefling Druid is hit by a fire attack, he luckily didn't need to use any particular build in order to benefit from his Fire Resistance. If you have a Tiefling Druid that can get hit (aka, all of them), your Infernal Wrath power will still get you a +1 bonus to hit even if you totally dumped CHA.
or a halfling wrathful invoker
You don't have to take a feat for your Halfling Invoker to get a +2 bonus to AC versus opportunity attacks. You don't have to construct a specific build to make use of that +5 save bonus versus fear effects. If your Halfling Invoker can be hit (and it can), it can benefit from Second Chance.
or a goliath wild sorcerer
A +1 racial bonus to Will is appreciated by any sorcerer. Getting to roll twice for jumping and climbing is of use regardless of build. You never need to take a feat or buy an item to make gaining resistance to all damage a great racial power.
(Goliath are actually one of 4E's best designed races!)
or an elf resourceful warlord.
Such a Warlord is still granting his allies a +1 bonus to perception checks. Such a Warlord is still ignoring difficult terrain when she shifts. Such a Warlord still appreciates Elven Accuracy when she rolls low to hit.
They are just suboptimal choices not likely to be played unless someone has their mind dead set on trying to make one work, and even then they would "require" a lot of feats, and still be suboptimal compared to other race choices for the class.
NONE of the character concepts you mentioned require even a single feat to make work.
All of the above examples show that you clearly don't understand the problem. The problem isn't that the Minotaur play some sub-optimally as some classes. Minotaurs should play sub-optimally at quite a number of classes! The problem is that the Minotaur's design is completely in opposition to the stated design philosophy that race shouldn't be pigeon-holed into specific classes of roles. If you take a really good look at all of the other races out there, you'll see their racial features are all almost completely class-neutral and role-neutral.
Back from vacation and ready for rebuttal. :D
Really? I hadn't notice, but I guess it's been a bit more peaceful. I'd say I was glad to have you back, but that might not be entirely honest of me.
Feats should be nice, not required.
Ah, some things never change. It's almost soothing to hear that mantra from you.
I can see where you coming from with that idea conceptually speaking, but the reasons that Dragon Breath is a minor action and that the Minotaur's Gore should be a minor action is actually just a mechanical concern. If you make somebody use up their standard action, you're denying them from the action they should normally be using to fulfill their class and party role, and that is a problem. I don't disagree with you conceptually that a standard action would make both racial powers seem more significant, but making them a standard action just gets in the way of what their class and role should be doing.
Well at least you're not entirely unreasonable.
I'll admit that I see your point as well, though I can't agree with it. Out of curiosity, what about half-elf? Their racial power is an enforced multi class.
You will not find many racial features at all that a character needs to take a feat to make useful.
How about the aforementioned Dragonborn Breath. A dragon born wizard would be most suitable for an Orb of Deception build due to naturally high CHA, but such a build means they won't be able to maintain a high enough stat to make attacking with their breath a meaningful action. You'll likely through back at me about how that's why it's a minor action, but it still becomes a near useless action to such a build regardless.
All of the above examples show that you clearly don't understand the problem. The problem isn't that the Minotaur play some sub-optimally as some classes. Minotaurs should play sub-optimally at quite a number of classes! The problem is that the Minotaur's design is completely in opposition to the stated design philosophy that race shouldn't be pigeon-holed into specific classes of roles. If you take a really good look at all of the other races out there, you'll see their racial features are all almost completely class-neutral and role-neutral.
Again, maybe it's only my personal opinion, but I say we have enough races that a little pigeon-holing isn't all that bad. Especially since their are two other STR+CON race alternative to the minotaur.
Irrelevant. It doesn't matter than you can make one. What matters is that they aren't one by default. They are an implement-using, ranged class. If you have to play specific builds in order to make something work, then that's because it didn't work to begin with.
It would seem to me you have an inherent misunderstanding of the Sorcerer class. Dragon Magic Sorcerers are not a specialised build, they are one of the branches Sorcerers can take, in fact it's one of the original two branches.
Go look at the Dragon Magic powers, they're almost exclusively close blast powers. You actually don't need to take any specific feats to make a Dragon Magic Sorcerer melee capable, it's just highly recommended. After all, Dragon Magic has a number of Utility powers to amp up your defenses and reduce damage.
Or are you going to make the claim that choosing the Dragon Magic branch is being super specialised build?
Seriously, I cannot believe you actually are claiming that Sorcerers are an implement using ranged class. Yes they are implement using, but they are most certainly not by default a ranged class. That totally depends on how they're built. Really, if you cannot get something as simple as how Sorcerers were designed correct, how can any of your statements be taken at all seriously?
Really though, the idea that certain feats shouldn't ever be seen as required for certain race choices and such? I can never agree with that. It's really a silly position to take. No matter what build you are going for there are always going to be feats that are required for you. Be it feats which work towards improving your racial benefits in some way or feats that work towards improving you class benefits or some combination of the two.
Is the Minotaur more melee focused due to his racial power than other races? Yes. Does that strictly mean it's penalised in some way if a Minotaur is taking a class that really doesn't get a lot of use out of their racial power? Nope. In fact, if their racial power gets changed you will remove a potential character build designed around a caster class that makes good use of that racial power.
Anyways, if it bothers you THAT much the solution is rather simple. House rule a different racial power for them.
Out of curiosity, what about half-elf?
What about it?
While the power you obtain from it forces you to pick something from outside your class, it doesn't force you to pick anything outside your desired role, and it's especially acceptable because you have dozens of options out there to find exactly what suits your needs instead of only a single power.
How about the aforementioned Dragonborn Breath.
Again, what about it? I said Dragon Breath was better, not that it was perfect. ;)
You'll likely through back at me about how that's why it's a minor action, but it still becomes a near useless action to such a build regardless.
I don't deny that Dragon Breath isn't perfect. It's not. It really isn't. However, it is better than Goring Charge because of the action type problem.
Again, maybe it's only my personal opinion, but I say we have enough races that a little pigeon-holing isn't all that bad. Especially since their are two other STR+CON race alternative to the minotaur.
If the only way that you can differentiate two races with the same stat bonuses is to pigeon-hole them into different classes and roles, then you're not very creative. :P
Seriously, The Gnome and Tiefling have the same stat boosts but are very mechanically different without needing to be pigeon-hole into anything. Same goes for the Elf and the Razor-Claw Shifter. Same goes for the Drow and the Halfling.
As the Goliath and Warforged have already shown that two STR/CON race can be significantly different without being pigeon-holed, I don't see any reason to believe the Minotaur must be pigeon-holed in order to maintain its own identity.
Really, if you cannot get something as simple as how Sorcerers were designed correct, how can any of your statements be taken at all seriously?
You know, I was going to write a long response about how you're totally wrong about his the Sorcerer class is designed, but really, it's completely irrelevant. If you really feel like the Sorcerer is a melee class, I'll go ahead and give it to you just for the sake of relevancy and continuing this discussion.
Now, moving along, try another class. I don't know, how about Wizard? Or maybe Invoker? Or Shaman? Or Warlock? The problem is the same.
Really though, the idea that certain feats shouldn't ever be seen as required for certain race choices and such? I can never agree with that. It's really a silly position to take.
Are we playing the same game here? Requiring a feat completely defeats the purpose of feats. That's exactly why FSBNNR exists.No matter what build you are going for there are always going to be feats that are required for you. Be it feats which work towards improving your racial benefits in some way or feats that work towards improving you class benefits or some combination of the two.
This is just plain not true. Those aren't required. They're just nice.
In fact, if their racial power gets changed you will remove a potential character build designed around a caster class that makes good use of that racial power.
Not necessarily, depending on how you do it. My personal Gore modification, for example, can still do all the same stuff the old Goring Charge got to do, so all of the same such builds would still be possible, just not necessary.
Anyways, if it bothers you THAT much the solution is rather simple. House rule a different racial power for them.
I do house rule the Minotaur how, and if it's still bad in a year, I will continue to do so, but "They can just house rule it if they don't like it," is an acceptable excuse neither for bad design nor for going against your promised design philosophies.
What about it?
While the power you obtain from it forces you to pick something from outside your class, it doesn't force you to pick anything outside your desired role, and it's especially acceptable because you have dozens of options out there to find exactly what suits your needs instead of only a single power.
Maybe, though depending on ability score requirements of individual classes may make finding a power that match both one's prime stats and role may be difficult.
Also, and I might be mistaken, but if IIRC, by RAW implement based dilettante powers are still restricted to the original classes list, but the half-elf only has proficiency with implements from their actual class. So implement using half-elves are far more restricted in viable power choices than weapon using ones.
If the only way that you can differentiate two races with the same stat bonuses is to pigeon-hole them into different classes and roles, then you're not very creative. :P
Seriously, The Gnome and Tiefling have the same stat boosts but are very mechanically different without needing to be pigeon-hole into anything. Same goes for the Elf and the Razor-Claw Shifter. Same goes for the Drow and the Halfling.
As the Goliath and Warforged have already shown that two STR/CON race can be significantly different without being pigeon-holed, I don't see any reason to believe the Minotaur must be pigeon-holed in order to maintain its own identity.
I didn't mean to suggest that the minotaur has to be pigeon-holed, only that since there are two other viable races with the same stat combination that the limitations of the minotaur are less problematic.
Maybe, though depending on ability score requirements of individual classes may make finding a power that match both one's prime stats and role may be difficult.
Doesn't necessarily need to be primary stat. Secondary can work too quite a lot of the time.
Also, and I might be mistaken, but if IIRC, by RAW implement based dilettante powers are still restricted to the original classes list, but the half-elf only has proficiency with implements from their actual class. So implement using half-elves are far more restricted in viable power choices than weapon using ones.
Yeah, that was a mistake, and I don't think they thought that out very well. I'm planning on fixing this in my games by giving the Half-Elf a +2 enhancement bonus to hit and damage per tier with its Dilettante power. Doesn't stack with the implement (or weapon for that matter) if they can use it but doesn't screw them over completely if they can't. Still looking for any weird side-effects before I actually implement it though...
I didn't mean to suggest that the minotaur has to be pigeon-holed, only that since there are two other viable races with the same stat combination that the limitations of the minotaur are less problematic.
I completely disagree. I think that would make such limitations on the Minotaur even more problematic because of the direct comparison with similar races. If the Goliath and Warforged were somewhat pigeon-holed into certain classes, the Minotaur would at least have a bit of an excuse. Of course, this would all still be bad, but at least then it would be more understandable why the mistake was made. But if neither the Goliath nor Warforged is pigeon-holed, what excuse does the Minotaur have to be? ;)
Maybe, though depending on ability score requirements of individual classes may make finding a power that match both one's prime stats and role may be difficult.
Doesn't necessarily need to be primary stat. Secondary can work too quite a lot of the time.
I said "prime stats" (plural), as in I meant to indicate both the primary and secondary stat (more basically, the two stats that are most likely to receive all the discretionary level boosts).
Yeah, that was a mistake, and I don't think they thought that out very well. I'm planning on fixing this in my games by giving the Half-Elf a +2 enhancement bonus to hit and damage per tier with its Dilettante power. Doesn't stack with the implement (or weapon for that matter) if they can use it but doesn't screw them over completely if they can't. Still looking for any weird side-effects before I actually implement it though...
My solution is to just house-rule across the board that proficiency with an implement applies to all powers regardless of the class they come from. Which also allows multiclass implement users to use a single implement for both classes, the same way a multiclass weapon user can use the same weapon for both classes.
It's not a perfect fix, the half-elf is still rather limited if their base class has no implement proficiencies, however, I also have house-ruled minimum enhancement bonus (that parallel NPC enhancement thresholds), so even without a magic implement a half-elves dilettante power will never be more than 2 attack/damage behind an appropriately equipped character.
I completely disagree. I think that would make such limitations on the Minotaur even more problematic because of the direct comparison with similar races. If the Goliath and Warforged were somewhat pigeon-holed into certain classes, the Minotaur would at least have a bit of an excuse. Of course, this would all still be bad, but at least then it would be more understandable why the mistake was made. But if neither the Goliath nor Warforged is pigeon-holed, what excuse does the Minotaur have to be? ;)
Maybe I'm just looking at it more mechanically, but as their are alternatives for players looking for a STR+CON race, the minotaur's rather narrow focus just doesn't bother me. Also, while you choose to see the minotaur as just being a bad ranged implement race, I choose to instead see them as an exceptional melee weapon class. So our disagreement may be something of a is the glass half-full or half-empty thing.
I said "both one's prime stats" (plural), as in I meant to indicate both the primary and secondary stat (more basically, the two stats that are most likely to receive all the discretionary level boosts).
Ah my bad, I guess I read over the "both". :P
Really though, all you're going towards here is showing that Dilettante isn't a very well-designed racial feature, which is something I already agree with. :P
Maybe I'm just looking at it more mechanically, but as their are alternatives for players looking for a STR+CON race, the minotaur's rather narrow focus just doesn't bother me.
I think that's exactly the problem is that you're just looking at it mechanically. I personally don't play Minotaurs because I like them better than Goliath or Warforged. I don't even play them because I want a race with +2 STR / +2 CON. I just play them because I like Minotaurs. I think they're cool.
Just think about it like you think about your problem with minor action racial powers. ;) The mechanics have nothing to do with it. It would just be nice if the mechanics didn't suck.
Also, while you choose to see the minotaur as just being a bad ranged implement race, I choose to instead see them as an exceptional melee weapon class. So our disagreement may be something of a is the glass half-full or half-empty thing.
But would it not be much better to achieve the win-win situation? The situation where Minotaurs are still exception at melee weapon classes but also reasonably effective at ranged implement classes? Why shouldn't we strive for that win-win? Especially when that win-win was a very attractive part of the advertised racial design philosophy for this edition?
Really though, all you're going towards here is showing that Dilettante isn't a very well-designed racial feature, which is something I already agree with. :P
Which is probably another difference between you and I. Dilettante might be poor mechanically, but it's flavor is right. I can agree that the mechanics of the minotaur are sub-par, but again it's flavor seems right.
I think that's exactly the problem is that you're just looking at it mechanically. I personally don't play Minotaurs because I like them better than Goliath or Warforged. I don't even play them because I want a race with +2 STR / +2 CON. I just play them because I like Minotaurs. I think they're cool.
Just think about it like you think about your problem with minor action racial powers. ;) The mechanics have nothing to do with it. It would just be nice if the mechanics didn't suck.
Maybe, except that for me when I look at Minotaurs the way I look at a dragonborn's breath, I see exactly what I would want to see. The minotaur is an exceptional melee race and that's all I really need it to be.
That said I'm quite aware that the DDi version was a bit too narrowly focused and so I wouldn't mind seeing the PH3 expand its role, but nothing that substantial alters it. Changes such as making ferocity any basic attack, letting heedless charge apply when running as well as charging, removing the charge requirement from gore, and expanding gore's key stat to STR/CON/DEX are all change I would support. Much more than that and it starts to look too much like an entirely different race.
Dilettante might be poor mechanically, but it's flavor is right. I can agree that the mechanics of the minotaur are sub-par, but again it's flavor seems right.
I don't disagree with any of this. What I disagree with is completely disregarding mechanical design concerns just because there are no flavor concerns.
Maybe, except that for me when I look at Minotaurs the way I look at a dragonborn's breath, I see exactly what I would want to see. The minotaur is an exceptional melee race and that's all I really need it to be.
And in both scenarios you're looking at the flavor side of things but not considering the mechanical implications. There are very legitimate mechanical reasons why Dragon Breath is a minor action and there very legitimate mechanical reasons why the Minotaur is currently so poorly designed. I'm not saying you have to like that. I'm just saying that you can't just look at one side of things.
Changes such as making ferocity any basic attack, letting heedless charge apply when running as well as charging, removing the charge requirement from gore, and expanding gore's key stat to STR/CON/DEX are all change I would support. Much more than that and it starts to look too much like an entirely different race.
Well then we agree! :D
I'm not suggesting much more change than that is necessary to fix the problem. I don't want to alter it so much that it ends up like looking like a totally different race. I just want to alter it enough to where it works and doesn't suck. That's why for my own fix, I specifically made sure I was making up as little on my own as possible and instead just slightly altering what was already given to us to make that work.
EDIT: When I first did my Minotaur fix, I hadn't considered being able to fix Heedless Charge like that by just making the bonus apply to more things like running or maybe even other opportunity attacks provoked for movement, so I think I might go back now and add in a note or post with that possibility. That's not a bad idea at all...
The races should be in balance between each other. For the most part this is true throughout the 4.0 books. Except for what I'm about to show.
You take the Gnoll, Minotaur, and the Golaith. Pretty much the big hitters of the melee world.
Why is the first two of the races so gimped compared to the Golaith?
I don't disagree with any of this. What I disagree with is completely disregarding mechanical design concerns just because there are no flavor concerns.
And in both scenarios you're looking at the flavor side of things but not considering the mechanical implications. There are very legitimate mechanical reasons why Dragon Breath is a minor action and there very legitimate mechanical reasons why the Minotaur is currently so poorly designed. I'm not saying you have to like that. I'm just saying that you can't just look at one side of things.
I'm not blind to mechanical short comings, I'm just willing to let them slide if the flavor seems right. It's probably the same reason why I'm fine with small races (well mostly, there are a few minor tweaks I put into my own house-rules). Conversely it doesn't matter how mechanically balanced something is, if the flavor doesn't feel right I won't like it.
Well then we agree! :D
I guess it's been a long time since I looked at your minotaur fix, but when I did your changes seemed more glaring. Maybe it was just my own biased perspective at the time (I didn't always sort of like you as I have come to
).EDIT: When I first did my Minotaur fix, I hadn't considered being able to fix Heedless Charge like that by just making the bonus apply to more things like running or maybe even other opportunity attacks provoked for movement, so I think I might go back now and add in a note or post with that possibility. That's not a bad idea at all...
Well, I'm glad to have be of help.
I guess it's been a long time since I looked at your minotaur fix, but when I did your changes seemed more glaring.
It's funny, I actually got pretty vocal complaints that my fix was too similar to the official Minotaur. :P
(I didn't always sort of like you as I have come to
Aww, I sort of like you too... I feel like this is a warm, fuzzy moment. *hugs*
At the same time, I can kind of see the point on making the minotaur a little less melee oriented. Making Ferocity give out an at-will attack is about as far as I'd be willing to go, though, because much else just wouldn't feel right. I've seen Crimson's Minotaur, and I like it, but not as a full replacement. Maybe some other race or something.
I'm sorry, something about a Minotaur wizard bothers me so deeply and thoroughly that I shudder to even think about it.
There is a minotaur wizard named Rikar in Dragonlance. The thing is, before Dragonlance went and civilized the minotaur race (probably not the first place it happened, but certainly one of the most well known D&D ones), a minotaur wizard probably was unheard of.
Ignoring the small size problem, Gnomes make perfectly viable Fighters of every kind. Every Fighter benefits from Low-Light vision. Every Fighter likes having Ghost Sound as an encounter power regardless of build. Every Fighter can benefit from making stealth checks when they make initiative checks. No Fighter needs to take a feat in order to make a +5 save bonus versus illusions useful. Fighters don't have to get specific items in order to make Fade Away a worthwhile power.
Do ghost sound, stealth bonus, and fade away help a fighter as much as they help a rogue? Or the question can be asked, what's better for a fighter ghost sound, stealth bonus and fade away, or endurance bonus, resisting forced movement, and minor action second wind? Or how about a minor action breath weapon to mark a bunch of enemies, a boost to healing surge values, and a bonus to intimidate? Does that not scream better fighter?
I won't go into counterpoints for each of your arguments because they merely say, they are playable combos. Sure anything can be played. But they are not anywhere near optimal.
So you think Minotaurs make bad wizards? Why? +2 perception is great for a wizard, they don't like to be surprised. No wizard is going to complain for having some extra con, especially a staff wizard or summoner. And the strength bonus just allows that wizard to more easily qualify for hide armor. When you are reduced to 0, you get to kick somebody in the shin for a whole 1d4 damage with dismal accuracy. Is that not awesome? And even if you totally dumped strength, you make a goring charge attack at +5, that's about as good as your average dwarf battlerager's basic attack. And then you can action point and thunderwave that prone target away 1 square, so he can't even stand up to charge you. Doesn't that sound good?
Well, it's really not good, compared to everything a semi-competent eladrin, deva, human, tiefling, or gnome wizard can do.
In general the design of the races make them lean toward certain classes or roles more so than others. But they do leave the other combos playable.
I don't disagree that goring charge, heedless charge and ferocity is a little too much of melee focus for a race. And I would agree that the Minotaur is poorly designed. But role or class bias is not something unique to the Minotaur, every race displays this to some degree or other.
It's funny, I actually got pretty vocal complaints that my fix was too similar to the official Minotaur. :P
Well to be honest I initially dismissed it by post title alone, in fact I didn't even notice your name on it so I actually assumed it was just another person whining about minotaurs losing oversized, which despite my notable agreement I was tired of talking about it after the first half-dozen or so such threads. I didn't actually look at it for the first time until you mentioned posting it in another thread (maybe this one) so I never saw your original post. Even more truth be told I haven't ever bothered to read the entire thread, but looking over your current revisions it looks passable, though still a bit to heavily revised in some spots for my personal taste, but the design notes at least help me see why you made your decisions. (sweet artwork by the way)
Aww, I sort of like you too... I feel like this is a warm, fuzzy moment. *hugs*
Glad to see the feeling is mutal.
At the same time, I can kind of see the point on making the minotaur a little less melee oriented. Making Ferocity give out an at-will attack is about as far as I'd be willing to go, though, because much else just wouldn't feel right.
Oddly enough I could see going as extreme as letting the minotaur make any standard action attack. The idea of a minotaur making one last devastating attack before falling just feels right to me. Probably better reserved for a feat though.
Do ghost sound, stealth bonus, and fade away help a fighter as much as they help a rogue?
As much? No. At all? Yes.
You're making the mistake of thinking that I'm saying races shouldn't ever be better at some classes than they are at other classes. I'm not saying that. I think some races should be better at some classes than at other classes. I think Minotaurs should have better synergy with melee weapon classes than with ranged implement classes.
But role or class bias is not something unique to the Minotaur, every race displays this to some degree or other.
I'm perfectly aware that class and role bias are not unique to the Minotaur. I'm perfectly okay with races having class and role bias. It's only natural. However, none of them are as extreme as what's going on with the Minotaur, and there is a reason for that. The reason is that the design philosophy for this edition was supposed to be that every race would be able to perform reasonably as a member of any class. Having less than optimal racial features still covers that, but effectively having no racial features at all doesn't.
Look back at your Gnome. That stuff's not optimal for the Fighter, no, but it's not totally useless. The Fighter can still use all of that stuff, and he doesn't need to take any feats or otherwise build his character a particular way to use them. You'll find the same with the vast majority of other races out there. The Minotaur doesn't do this. If you play the Minotaur as a member of some classes and roles, you effectively have no racial features at all, because it's not that they're not as useful as other racial features could be but that they're completely useless.
DL minotaurs have made very good magi in the past.
I don't doubt that they have; I've heard they're more civilized in some settings. But that doesn't change the fact that they look the same, which at least in my mind, makes it kind of weird to see them in robes throwing magic missiles.
But then, I could say the same thing about a gnome barbarian.
In the end, I think some changes are necessary, but not a complete overhaul. Gnolls have an almost equal time of it, and their ability score bonuses lead just as much to non-melee classes as the Minotaur, if not more.
EDIT: Crimson, I took another look at your Minotaur design, and I like it a lot better than the regular minotaur when I really think about it. Heedless charge sucks anyways (It's like a terrible version of the Halfling racial trait).
After pouring over the CharOp board, the only conclusion I could come up with is that some races flat out do not do well with certain classes. Heck, the barbarian class all but excludes halflings and gnomes (depending on what your definition of a two-handed weapon is), and other races do equally poorly as far as optimization goes. An interesting experiment would be to poll all the class optimization articles and find out how often each race is listed in red (fail).
Granted, the Minotaur leans very heavily towards melee due to the nature of it's racial powers. That doesn't mean it's unplayable as a ranged class, just not as optimized. Still, it's hard to come up with a racial power for a killer cow that isn't melee-based. Based on the source material, there simply isn't anything that has quite the steak and A1 flavor of goring charge. So either you accept the fact that the class has a built-in melee attack that sorcerer builds won't likely use, or you add a bull-ony power that really doesn't suit what minotaurs are all about.
I'd point out that goring charge is melee 1, so you don't have to get adjacent to set it off. Plus, you can goring charge and follow up with a close burst or blast power, or knock down a lurker who's getting too close to your spellcasting cow.
Moo!
Bellow (Minotaur Racial Power) You take a deep breath and let out an almighty roar, reminding your foe of just how savage you can be. Encounter ♦ Fear Minor Action Close burst 3 Target: One creature in burst Attack: Strength +2 vs. Will, Constitution +2 vs. Will, or Dexterity +2 vs. Will Increase to +4 at 11th level and +6 at 21st level. Hit: 1d6 + Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity modifier damage and you push the target 1 square. If the target is adjacent to you, you deal an additional 1d6 damage and you push the target 2 squares Increase to 2d6 + Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity modifier at 11th level, and to 3d6+ Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity modifier at 21st level. Special: When you create your character, choose Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity as the ability score you use when making attack rolls and damage rolls with this power. This choice remains throughout your character’s life and does not change the power’s other effects.
I was surprised that there was nothing minotaur-tasty in Thunderspire Labyrinth. OK, so the premise is that they built it and then left, but it's just odd that the module doesn't include even a lone minotaur NPC adventurer defying the warnings of his/her people to investigate the ruins every other race is perfectly keen to plunder?
So I have a couple of new players joining mid-H2 and I want to encourage some minotaur engagement.
I like giving them +2 Perception. Emphasise the senses of scent and hearing where possible.
I don't think being part animal necessarily has to translate into +2 Nature skill. Plenty of Minotaurs seem to be purely urban-orientated.
But their size, and tendency to bellowing (see below) including the lung capacity of their +2 Con (and possibly their outsize weaponry, for those who allow Oversized) might translate into +2 Intimidate.
Me, I'm fine with their main advantages being in HTH combat.
Maybe their charge could be an 'Inexorable' one, allowing them to bowl over/through spaces not occupied by larger creatures.
For Ranged operation I could only see either some form of resilience to damage or a Bellow.
I've been whipping through this topic waiting to see whether these'd be suggested. Many posts later, well done Tectorman.
One quibble though: I don't see Minotaurs as proponents of anything Dex-based. I especially wouldn't want to see Dex as a possible attack stat for a Bellow, of all things!
And, if anything, shouldn't 7-foot ox-men have their Fortitude defences reinforced instead of their Reflex (as per the Natural Cunning suggestion elswhere on this topic)?
Cheers,
--Os.
As for the racial power, I'm tempted to suggest that instead of replacing the racial power, make it an either/or thing. I.e., "at character creation, you choose either Bellow or Goring Charge as your Minotaur's racial power; this choice remains throughout your character's career".
Just to keep from having to retcon all the support that the Goring Charge already has, inconceived though it was.