I always liked the Vanara from Oriental Adventures or Hadozee from Stormwrack (They are quite similar.)
Without being specific, here are some themes I might be interested in seeing covered in a new race:
another small race
a large race?
another fey race
an avian or flying race
another undead race
another planar race
another elemental race
another shadow race
a saurian race
an aquatic race
I realize that any of the races already released in the Monster Manuals may be eligible, but perhaps they will be saved for a Savage Species book? Also races already released online such as the Revenant and Shadar-Kai might be contenders as well?
It appears we will see Thri-kreen and Mul in Dark Sun
((Disclaimer: This is my opinion))
- I want the Goblinoids to get their due -
Goblin
Hobgoblin
Bugbear
- I want Lizard Folk (I wanted them far more than Dragon-blech.)
- I know people love Kobolds, I'd like to see them.
- Thri-Kreen (Dark Sun - I love you!)
- I want the new Wilden thrown out - and replaced with a new Wilden.
*shrugs*
So - by and large, a "Savage Species" PHB.
These races need to become civilization builders and leave behind this "Savage" cliche.
I honestly can't say that there are any races that I personally want. If they include Shadow in PHB4, a race idea that I just thought of which could be interesting would be a race whose members are created when fragments of souls taken by the Shadowfell converge in a single location to create an amalgram of the base beings. I just came up with that 5 min ago, so I don't know how you would go about making it mechanically distinct from both the Revenant and Deva. I think it is an interesting idea that could be explored though.
I don't really know what they could do for Elemental though. Genasi do a pretty good job of covering the "elemental" race niche. Perhaps bring back spiritfolk? I don't really recall them too well though, so I don't know if they would actually work or not.
A Small Race.
A Race that Fits the New Power Souce.
A Race that Pushes the Envelope with the "Humanoid PCs" Concept.
A Completely NEW Race.
(None of these are mutually exclusive.)
I would love to see at least 6 races present - optimally, a return to the PH1's 8 races.
-One of the monster manual races reborn into a PHB format. The Goblinoids could do the shifter thing and have a single entry with three stat blocks, the lizardmen could get an in-depth look, the yuan-ti could get a special little niche, etc. Only one savage race, however, otherwise the entire section is too focused on one concept.
-A completely new race. Something innovative and interesting. Something that will be part of DnD on into the future, carving itself a new place in the worlds.
-A race from outside of DnD reimagined. Magic: The Gathering has several, for example, that would make fantastic editions to the game, be it Aven, Cephalid, Nantuko, Nezumi, Orochi, etc. Bring in something not yet touched upon but full of fluffy and crunchy potential.
-Something aquatic. It doesn't have to be exclusively sea-bound, but exploring water themes would help round out the races, which currently place a lot of emphasis on mountain, forest, etc, but not on several other aspects of nature.
Kobolds for certain, love those little guys :D (MWonder how their shift as a minor action at-will racial power would interact with the seeker's shift as a minor action at-will class feature).
Some sort of golem race, baked clay instilled with false life or a soul ripped from the Shadowfell.
Something more distinctly bestial than the shifters (Rakshasa or were-races).
One cool concept that's a little on the sci-fi side is extra-planetary beings, a race from another planet!
Maybe rules for creating half-breeds of the various races already out there, kind of like how PHB3 did with hybrid classes?
Other than that, I have no other major demands. There's a lot of races I'd like to see, but then, there's a lot of races I'd like to see.
Githyanki
Kobold
Goblin
Icanabulum
Bladeling
- Thri-Kreen (Dark Sun - I love you!)
They're coming in Dark Sun in less than five months. There's no need for them to be in a PHB.
- I want the new Wilden thrown out - and replaced with a new Wilden.
Why? The Wilden are awesome as is.
- I want the new Wilden thrown out - and replaced with a new Wilden.Why? The Wilden are awesome as is.
... How 'bout this then (though I know you weren't responding to me - it just got me thinking):
I'd like to see a race that is actually plant-like in some fashion.
... How 'bout this then (though I know you weren't responding to me - it just got me thinking):
I'd like to see a race that is actually plant-like in some fashion.
Except that they, you know, do look like plants ...
Dragonborn or Tiefling that can fly!
Like their (dragonborn) racial PPs?
Except that they, you know, do look like plants ...
Yeah, when I finally got the PH3 and started looking through it, my first thought was 'WTF is everybody complaining about with the Wilden?'
Would I mind another plant race? I would not. I like the idea of a playable plant race more than I like the idea of a playable living construct race, and if D&D has enough room for more than one of those, and it does, then I think that it should also have enough room for more than one playable plant race. For example, while Wilden are more magical plant creatures, I think that I would prefer to play a more non-magical plant creature. It wouldn't be too difficult to reflavor Wilden, no, but still...
Anyways, as for races I'd like to see... I'm actually pretty much fine with what we have now. I will say in response to other posts, though, that I'd prefer they not do small races until they realize that they need to fix the small size mechanics and that a large race would be mechanically broken so I hope that never happens.
I wouldn't mind seeing Illumians again, though, and even though most people are terrible at homebrewing their flying races, Raptorans have enough of a history in my homebrew campaign setting that I wouldn't mind seeing them again if they can get the mechanics right.
Ok ... they're fungi, not plants ... but still ...
MYCONIDS!
I'd like to see some of the monster races but i'd rather they be featured in a book all their own. like savage species. If you dont like the word savage then whine and cry till they rename the book monstrous species. I think that some monsters are in terrible need of some fixing. when a DM uses a monster in an encounter the various tricks these monsters employ make great challenges for players but in the hands of players become severely overpowered. the gnoll's variety of bonuses to damage and the kobold's ability to shift every turn as a minor action for example. conversely some monsters are just too damn weak as playable races, for example the kenku who only have a small bonus to flank and assists going for them. mimicry is cool but still not enough plus if your DM employs a hack and slash gaming style then you wont be using it much.
CelticMutt, i think Medhia_Nox was rejoicing the coming of thri-kreen in darksun not asking for them to be in a players handbook. so you objected to a non sequitur
out of curiosity, whats wrong with the small mechanic exactly? besides its basically nothing but a drawback.
That's precisely the problem.
And any and all playable races should be in Player's Handbooks or Player's Guides, as it has been since 4e launched (though apparently Dark Sun is going to be something of an exception, I heard).
out of curiosity, whats wrong with the small mechanic exactly? besides its basically nothing but a drawback.
That's precisely the problem.
And any and all playable races should be in Player's Handbooks or Player's Guides, as it has been since 4e launched (though apparently Dark Sun is going to be something of an exception, I heard).
I dont think thats necessarily true, drow and genasi never made it into a PHB warforged and kalashtar havent either. It seems there will always be at least two races featured in each setting book that arent going to be in PHBs. the myriad of monster races mostly havent made the leap to full player eligibility yet either.
Edit: just noticed you also said "or players guide" which i guess counts setting books. darksun isnt the exception there will still be two books but its looking like the players stuff and DM stuff will be a lil mingled in the first book and the second will be a darksun specific monster manual.
The writers are creative people who like seeing their ideas in print. Why update something when you can make something brand new and leave your mark on the game?
Most of the MM1 and MM2 races probably have the same problem as githyanky: they're better as villains.
Kenku are pretty popular now, I can see them making the cut. And give we know at least one person in the WotC office is playing one, they probably want feats for their character.
They might reprint gnolls from DDI.
They could do some aquatic races like sea-elves or tritons, but 4e seems to be steering away from underwater adventures.
And any and all playable races should be in Player's Handbooks or Player's Guides, as it has been since 4e launched (though apparently Dark Sun is going to be something of an exception, I heard).
I dont think thats necessarily true, drow and genasi never made it into a PHB warforged and kalashtar havent either. It seems there will always be at least two races featured in each setting book that arent going to be in PHBs. the myriad of monster races mostly havent made the leap to full player eligibility yet either.
That's why he said or Player's Guides. The FRPG and EPG are Player's Guides.
And any and all playable races should be in Player's Handbooks or Player's Guides, as it has been since 4e launched (though apparently Dark Sun is going to be something of an exception, I heard).
DarK sun's only an exception in that the Player's Guide and Campaign Guide will be the same book. I'm willing to bet that's how all future settings will be too if it's sells more than the Eberron or FR Campaign Guides.
Given PHB3 was 50/50 old and new races, I imagine PHB4 will be even more new races.
Technically it's 75/25, since the Wilden are just revamped Killoren from 3.5e.
I agree with The_Jester the MM races wont get much attention because they are villainous and IMO players using monsters complicates things a little. but as long as girls want to date jerks players will want to be badass anti-heroes. Thats why there should be a book that focuses more attention on these races if not only to shut up the people who go on and on about it ad nauseum. call it: Monstrous Species Player's Guide...
Besides Dark Ones (whom the PC version should be renamed into a one-word name – the renaming is precedented: Doppelgänger -> Changeling is a good example), I want much as others have been saying.
I want a race that revamps an old edition race or monster race. Raptorans are at the top of my book, though if they're fused with Aarakockra I'd be happy too (making them more avian than elf-with-wings). That would require better control over using flight in early game. Possibly removing the ability to fly until Racial Paragon Path, much as Dragonborn do. But it's a territory I'd like to explore.
I want another brand-new race, but I think I'm fine with Shardminds and Warforged as the only living construct races. I think there are other ways to push in new, less human directions.
I want another race that racially ties to Psionics. Right now, Githzerai and Shardmind in particular do, but I want another race that does as well.
I think we have a -lot- of primal-themed races. I want some races that are less primal in origin.
That said, I wouldn't be -against- another more primal race joining the crew in PH4. There are plenty of powerful themed races that are primal in origin to draw on. I just think there are other directions that can followed.
out of curiosity, whats wrong with the small mechanic exactly?
Well, look at what the small size mechanics actually do. They limit and restrict weapons. This means that implement-users see no drawback to small size while weapon-users (with the possible exception of Rogue) see their weapon options nerfed. Basically, it penalizes you for playing certain classes while not penalizing you for playing others. This is pigeon-holing, and it's bad. Take a look at the opposite of Small size for another example of why this is bad: Oversized. Don't play a weapon-based class? Well then, sorry, but you're cheated one racial feature.
Also perhaps a race representative of a power source like shadow.
Or a different plant race.
Or the unlikely potential for either a large or flying race.
Or a totally new, original race.
Other things: Illumians were an interesting idea that could be fun to explore.
And while not a direct attempt to grid fill it would be nice to see some spread out of stat love. Int/Con is popular for classes but not supported race has it, Dex/Con while not a popular combo for classes that i can think of it is only supported by 1 race that is DDI exlusive with a single article. . Int/Cha and Dex/WIs both have plenty of coverage so I'd like to see less of these combos, same with str/con, int/wis, and dec/cha. SO on and so forth. Basically if that stat pair/triplets already have more then two races I feel they could be innovationg more.
Given PHB3 was 50/50 old and new races, I imagine PHB4 will be even more new races.
Technically it's 75/25, since the Wilden are just revamped Killoren from 3.5e.
They changed the name, appearance, and backstory of the race and only kept its most basic mechanic and nature.
It's a new race.
Killoren weren't exactly an a-list race either. For the number of people who knew of them WotC probably could have made a brand new race.
But it might be an idea to skim through the other 3.5 races books. Illuminam or whatever they were called might have been popular to see a come-back. And raptorians might also be interesting as a race with an at-will or encounter flying power (but they might just name them aarakocra).
See, there shouldn't be a complication because you want to play a bugbear, a hobgoblin, or a goblin, or any "suitably evil" race. No race is inherently evil, especially if care naught for any of the actual "fluff" in the books. If for example, I decided that Eladrin are an evil race in my campaign, and Hobgoblins stood for truth, justice, and the american way... What's there to stop the players from playing Hobbies? A lack of real support from the developers. Let's say, in that campaign, someone just had to play a redeemed subfaction of the Eladrin... I won't stop them, and it's all supported too. I don't see why it's a bad thing to have what are traditionally off the cuff races actually supported, so as to actually facilitate playing your own game world, and try to break the molds of the cliche and overwrought fantasy tropes. Then again, half the fun of being a DM is making up rules; but seriously, that's a lot of work.
It's one of the default assumptions of how you play the game that PCs will be heroes. Which means no channel divinity powers for evil gods and no truly evil races as PCs.
Can you plan a traditionally evil race with DM permission? Yes, there are stats in the first MM. But having an actual race entry in a PHB will dramatically increase the number of players using said races. Players will have more contact with "redeemed" members of that race than evil members. It diminishes the vileness and evil if the race if so many are good.
And it adds grey morality to the game. If there are hundreds of good goblins then you have to stop and wonder if that pack of gobbies you and your party slaughtered were unredeemably evil or just desperate.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about making the less savory races playable, but I understand why they're unlikely candidates for a PHB. At best I hope for supplements down the road that focus on the player material for such game themes, like Savage Species, Heroes of Battle, or Heroes of Horror did in 3.5.
They changed the name, appearance, and backstory of the race and only kept its most basic mechanic and nature.
It's a new race.
Their backstory really isn't that different. Immune system against civilization destroying the natural world, versus immune system against the Far Realms destroying the natural world.
And their appearance wasn't changed that greatly. They're still plants, they still change colors according to their age/season, and they still change appearance according to aspect, with almost the exact same changes. The only real difference in their appearance is the digitigrade legs and Wolverine "hair."
Killoren weren't exactly an a-list race either. For the number of people who knew of them WotC probably could have made a brand new race.
Well, I wasn't arguing that they were well known.
I always liked the Vanara from Oriental Adventures or Hadozee from Stormwrack (They are quite similar.)
Can't believe I missed this until now - my powers of perception are slipping. Anyways, the Hadozee aren't from Sotrmwrack. They're actually from Spelljammer. Stormwrack was just the only thing to ever mention them in 3e.
Especially if they were a Wis/Cha – Dex/Cha race.
Adapting more villainous races (such as goblinoids or orcs) to be playable might be another option, though it might be saved for its own supplement or an Insider article.
Given they have (half) orcs, tauren minotaurs, forsaken revenants, and draenai deva in 4e, I wonder if they'll add a half-troll or troll-oid race next.
Oh man, am I going to be flamed for this...
Given they have (half) orcs, tauren minotaurs, forsaken revenants, and draenai deva in 4e, I wonder if they'll add a half-troll or troll-oid race next.
Haha, you're funny...
That was supposed to be a joke, right?
Kobold - I see so many requests!
Bariaur - Enough to satiate the Centaur craving and yet not an established "monster".
Kenku - Cool, different, dark... what's not to like?
Gloaming - Fey in an un-fluffy bunny fey way.
Raptoran - People want a flying race.
Illumian - Interesting and not yet fully explored.
Aasimar - Because I miss them dearly and Deva don't match.
Aasimar - Because I miss them dearly and Deva don't match.
Deva bloodline(from Dragon) pretty much covers the design space for the Aasimars.
Oh man, am I going to be flamed for this...
Given they have (half) orcs, tauren minotaurs, forsaken revenants, and draenai deva in 4e, I wonder if they'll add a half-troll or troll-oid race next.
Haha, you're funny...
That was supposed to be a joke, right?
Wouldn't not overly shock me.
Also: Ettercaps. We need the goofy creature that wont die to become a playable race!
I'd say it should be like Genasi, with the "subraces"
All Lupin gain at least Lowlight Vision, and +2 to perception. Might get something else here. Stats, I dunno.
Then you pick the Subrace, examples..
Ye Great Dogge: +2 Endurance or athletics (dunno which), racial traits, and the power to bolster enemies.
Renados Folk: +2 Bluff, Racial Traits, and the power to taunt enemies.
Asides from that, I'd love to let the creators go wild, see what new races come up. Might be that there's a concept that really catches light.
Genasi and Warforged made an easier transition than I think the Thri-Kreen will - plus, the Minotaur was already re-written in two seperate places - and now we have them officially PHB material.
======
As for the Wilden - I've seen all the posted pictures I can find, and I do not feel they look plant-like (I've got other books to buy right now other than the PHB 3) - unless of course, "plant-like" is anything that has green on it. ((I might give you the one that looks like he's got a venus flytrap for a head))
The Shambling Mount - looks plant-like. The treant - looks plant like. ((though I wouldn't want either of them to give the Wilden it's appearance exactly))
And if none of that is good enough for you - because I don't like them, and someone was asking my opinion.
I want to see the kenku. Other than that, I don't really have any other preferences.
I said Thri-Kreen because, while I know they'll be in Dark Sun - I want them to come out of Dark Sun and into D&D proper.
But this is 4e. Everything is "DnD Proper". For instance, you can play a Warforged Artificer in Living Forgotten Realms, even though both appear in the Eberron Player's Guide, because Everything Is Core.
As for races I'd like to see, I'm still holding out hope for Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Bugbears to get a full-write up. I can only make a strong case for hobgoblins though, as they're the most martial and likely to be civilized, I think. Would make a good case for an "honorable" tribe of PC-worthy hobgoblins.
Dromite - This small race is one that should be in the PHB3, and I doubt that it will be passed up in the next book. With the Thri-Kreen being in the Darksun Setting, the Dromite is a race to take the Psionic spot for the couple of classes that most likely will be in the book.
Lupin - A poster mentioned this race, from the Dragon Compendium (3.5), and I much prefer this to the Knoll, or the Kobold.
Kenku - I think this would be nice. Not sure if they would be a small or medium race.
Tibbit - It might be nice to be able to turn into a house cat to sneak around or listen in on conversations. Perhaps we can have more than one small race to make up for the omission in the PHB3.
Now....
The thing we shouldn't have is a direct turn around of what has been avoided thus far, making monsters into character races. I should thing that Goblins (and their kin), Kobolds, Gnolls, Yanki, and other 'Monster' races will stay firmly within the MM and not be included in the PHB's. We already have the Half Orc and the Minotaur. I like the Minotaur, having read about Huma and such, and the Half Orc is watered down from the previous past.
Save the monster race write ups for Dragon, along side with the Assassin and Revenant.
The Small rules are a vast improvement from the previous edition's pitiful experiment. Now, weapons are exactly what they are, instead of having "small" weapons that do "small" damage. Instead, you use the same weapons that the others do, using both hands for the versitile and ignoring the two handed stuff. It simply is a different way to do the same thing. In this edition, the dagger is the smaller's short sword, the short sword his long sword, as far as damage is concerned. The bigger weapons have always been a problem, your small!
I see it as a logical step. Most of the time, the smaller races would use the weapons made by the other races, those weapons being more plentiful than the smaller makes. This is more so since the Halflings and Gnomes are not known for their smithing skills.
The Rapturian is bunk and shouldn't be in any 4th edition product at all.
Despite of the fact that is an Eberron exclusive Race, it would perfectly match the 4e Style.
You have an evil Origin and struggle with your Madness but try to overcome all this habits and become a real Hero.
Perhaps the Half-Daelkyr will be as succesfull like the Warforged, which was also Eberron exclusive.
Also: Ettercaps. We need the goofy creature that wont die to become a playable race!
Maybe not Ettercaps, but Aranea would be cool.
I think the theme of the Shadow source being Dark Heroes, some monster races would be cool
I still prefer this race to the Gnoll.
Don't know when the first playable version appeared though.
*waits for numerous and sundry people whining that Razorclaws = Catfolk
I'll agree to Catfolk.
*waits for numerous and sundry people whining that Razorclaws = Catfolk
Not the same thing, to be sure, but I've found them an adequate substitute. Just refluff (See what I did there?) them to being full-time furry, and off you go. I am, however, not the pickiest gamer in the world, so YMMV.
Kitty Cat Folk make me think of anime -
Lion/Tiger Folk make me think of M:tG
===
I think if we have to go with more anthropomorphized animals - I'd like to see something not related to Cat/Dog. ((Personal taste - I wouldn't cry if they were put in.))
What about -
Elephant Men (they already exist) - Call them the Ganessa (Based off the Elephant God of India - it'll be clever - people will say: "I C wat U did THAR!" Everyone will laugh - good times.
Rhino Men (I think they do too)
Centaur (tough one - but very cool)
Bear people would be cool. ((I love the picture of the Bear/Human used for the Barbarian PP))
Not the same thing, to be sure, but I've found them an adequate substitute. Just refluff (See what I did there?) them to being full-time furry, and off you go. I am, however, not the pickiest gamer in the world, so YMMV.
I'm not saying you can't refluff them in a pinch. What I'm saying is that there are some people here that are adamant that there should never be a Catfolk race just because the Shifter *can* be refluffed.
What are "Catfolk" anyway - are they like "Kitty Cat Folk" or "Lion/Tiger Folk"?
Kitty Cat Folk make me think of anime -
Lion/Tiger Folk make me think of M:tG
If it were up to me, either kinda tiger/lion like, like the Kilrathi
Or the Katta from the Quest for Glory Series
Which are roughly 5 foot tall desert dwelling medieval Arab analogues (culture wise).
Also...I want REDCAPS...,er Spriggans *sigh*. Another formerly enslaved fey race like the gnome. Has a mechanic to do extra damage against bloody enemies (gotta soak those caps!) While soaking your cap in the blood of your enemies might seem brutal or even eee-viill, it could be refluffed to be a lingering curse from their enslavement to the fomorians. They don't have to be the psychotic killers of earlier editions, but retaining a hint of madness could be a cool hook.
A race already described in a Monster Manual (kobold, goblin, kenku etc.)
A race based on a newer power source (psionic, shadow, elemental?)
A race from a previous edition (catfolk, vanara, lupin, etc., etc)
A race which is completely new and original
I am also thinking that WotC may be saving some races for future books such as Environment/Location books or older campaign settings that might be revitalized such as Planescape, Spelljammer, Dragonlance, Oriental Adventures etc. etc. (Dark Sun and Planes Above are the only things akin to those listed above that I have any knowledge of being released, but I haven't really checked out the future release schedule)
What are "Catfolk" anyway - are they like "Kitty Cat Folk" or "Lion/Tiger Folk"?
Why does it have to be one or the other? With an ability score selection like +2 DEX // +2 STR / +2 CHA, I should think that both concepts could easily and very well be represented by the same race.
If I needed to pick, though, I would definitely go with the STR/DEX variety, because when I think of Catfolk, this is what immediately comes to mind...
Like before with the Ye Great Dogge (Aka Great Dane) the Renadous Folk (Unkown but belived to be poodles. ) with the felines they would have something for a siamese cat, a tiger, a panther ect.
Everything is based on "subtype" similar to the Genasi.
Lupin gain +2 Wis as thier primary stat, with an optional stat based on power.
Renadous Folk for example gain +2 Cha, +2 Bluff.
They have a power similar to the changlings where they can "mark" a target by insulting it or pissing it off. Unlike the changling the mark can be used at a distance and functions sort of like a fighters mark. (Basically making the monster want to attack them.) And if they do, then the player gets a free basic attack. (Either Melee or Ranged.)
Now Mind you this isn't to "pidgen hole" the race, but a suggestion based on the idea of the original renadous folk ability. (And really, some races will always be more inclined to certain roles and methods than others.)
Kobolds too, because I feel they should be the true Dragon-like race, not what they have right now for them.
I would personally like to see Elan and Dromites back as they were the most interesting of the original races introduced in the 3.5 psionics book.
And finally I'd wish they see the logic of making a Int/Con race, as it would at least shut up all of those complaining about the lack of such as race and calling it... The MODRON.
Like - Races of Litter and Fetch: A Complete Domesticated, Anthropomorphized Handbook.
----
And I wouldn't want "Savage Species" per se (though I'd want all those races) - I want them to evolve the "Savage" races - Tolkien is great, but it's time to bring the Goblinoids/Orcs/Gnolls/etc. into line with D&D (as in, exotic races are the new norm)
Personally, I think we have quite a few "savage" races already. It would be nice to see a few races that aren't directly Primal, or if they must be beastlike, go the full distance and implement creatures like Dromites, Centaurs, Cephalid, Nantuko, Naga (or whatever we are calling six-armed snake women these days), etc, creatures that are distinctly different, not just "humans with more hair and cat ears". Not that there is anything wrong with cat ears, but it has already been done.
Wouldn't it be easy enough to add new Shifter varieties to turn them directly into catfolk, wolffolk, hedgehogfolk, shrewfolk, owlbearfolk, whatever? They already have the fuzziness going, all you need is a power substitution to replace their regeneration. Like genasi have already demonstrated, you can add new subtypes to a race, and Shifters are the "furred humanoid" mold already.
Personally, I think we have quite a few "savage" races already. It would be nice to see a few races that aren't directly Primal, or if they must be beastlike, go the full distance and implement creatures like Dromites, Centaurs, Cephalid, Nantuko, Naga (or whatever we are calling six-armed snake women these days), etc, creatures that are distinctly different, not just "humans with more hair and cat ears". Not that there is anything wrong with cat ears, but it has already been done.
Yes it has been done before. In 2nd edition, the Lupin race was created. Lupin=/= Shifters. Shifters are were-creatures. I know the lack of racial traits just makes them seem very blank, a flaw I've brought up several times, but the shifter is a race that is suppose to allow were-critters to be playable.
But due to the lack of racial traits, they are basically humans who get a little angry, rather than the shapeshifters they should be.
Lupins on the other hand are not shapechangers. They are not werewolves. They might have been decentant from werewolves, gnolls and other creatures, but they don't shapeshift like the Shifter should really be doing.
In addition, unlike gensai, shifters are not one race in the book, but have been seperated into 2 races. With the new optional stats though, they might be able to errata shifters into a single race, but it still will not be Lupin or Feline. Would be like trying to make dragonborn into kobolds by putting the sub-race effect like the gensai.
The savage species, many of them are classic monsters. I know there was chants before about "no evil races" which was simplistic in nature, but what it means is that races that are suppose to be your monster races shouldn't be converted into playable races. This includes goblins and sadly even kobolds.
More simpally
Shifters are Wolverine from the X-men, with all his facial hair. Razorclaw shifters are Sabertooth. They are not the Road Rovers.
/snip
Aye, I get that.
But the problem is, when you have "Cat-shifters and dog shifters", and then you have a request for "cat-folk and dog-folk", there's a bit of an overlap. And since the only shifty part of Shifters is their racial power, if you include breeds of Shifters that are more controlled in their natures (aka a new set of powers that go with several other varieties, including Fixed Forms), you get catfolk, wolffolk, etc. At the same time, you could ALSO have expansions upon the opposite end of the spectrum, creating feats and features that allow certain varieties of shifters to truly transform and go all-out werewolf.
By expanding a single race in both directions, you solve both problems, adding furred folk without creating redundancy and providing the potential for greater shifting, all done in a single Shifter-focused article or paperback racial book.
Which, in my completely-not-humble opinion, is a better option than having several overlapping primal races, with catfolk and cat shifters each requiring different feats, PPs, and traits to accomplish the same catlike flavor.
In otherwords, Lupin are not primal. They are not werewolves, gnolls, or other such creatuers who run around in the forest wearing loincloths, speeking with trees and spirits.
This would be just like saying Elves, Eladrin and Drow have too much overlap because they are all pointy eared treehuggers and thus should be just a single race with the Gensai Effect in place. Or that Shartminds and Warforged are both contructs, so instead of a new race being created there, they should have just added to warforged.
Like I said before its like trying to use the gensai effect to turn a Dragonborn into a Lizard Folk, Naga, Medusa or Kobold just because all three have scales.
Wouldn't it be easy enough to add new Shifter varieties to turn them directly into catfolk, wolffolk, hedgehogfolk, shrewfolk, owlbearfolk, whatever? They already have the fuzziness going, all you need is a power substitution to replace their regeneration. Like genasi have already demonstrated, you can add new subtypes to a race, and Shifters are the "furred humanoid" mold already.
No, because Shifters are lycanthropes, not "furries." That do not fill the same niche at all. And reflavoring is not the same, because they'd still have Shifter mechanics, which are not in any way appropriate for a catfolk or other animal race.
I'll give you an example - it's not something I actually plan to do, because I suck at DMing. It's just sort of a thought excercise.
I reinstalled the Quest for Glory games recently (which the Katta from my earlier post come from), and since it's inspired quite a bit by DnD (in fact, in my opinion the Bahamut Paladin is a perfect fit for the QfG Paladin, minus the god worshipping part), I decided to start coming up with ideas of how to run a QfG campaign under 4e.
A lot of the classes are iffy, since QfG only has the Fighter, Wizard, Thief, and Paladin, but most classes could be fit in easily I think. It's the races that are the tricky part, though some are pretty obvious (DnD first, then QfG version):
Human = Human
Gnome = Gnome
Eladrin = Fairy Folk
Half-Elf = Half-Fairy Folk using Eladrin for Origin instead of Elf
Goblin = Goblin
Minotaur = Minotaur (QfG was the first non-Dragonlance property I ever saw to use a good guy Minotaur)
really stupid Goliaths = Goons
Gnolls = Jackelmen
Githzerai = aliens from Andromeda (the star system, not the tv series)
Centaurs = Centaurs (sdaly not playable yet)
Wemics = Liontaurs (and I don't even recall if Wemics have a 4e version yet)
But see, then we get to the real problem ...
QfG has Katta and Canines (yes, Canines ...), which are basically Catfolk from Arabia, and Lupins from India (QfG is set on an alternate fantasy Earth)
But they also have Leopardmen and Gypsies, and the Leopardmen are humans that shapeshift into humanoid leopards, and the Gypsies are humans that shapeshift into wolves. Now, Gypsies could be done with Vistani + Druid or Druid multi-class, but Leopardmen pretty much have to be Razorclaws.
And you see, that's the problem. What happens when you have more than one animal-humanoid of the same persuasion running around? If they were nearly identical, you could do like FR and use feats to differentiate them. But when one is a natural shapeshifter and the other isn't? You need more than one animal race.
It's absolutely no different from having Elves, Eladrin, or Drow, or Dwarves and Derro, or Humans, Shadar-Kai, Tieflings, and half a dozen others. You need different mechanics.
And no, limiting it to one race or the other is not an option.
But the problem is, when you have "Cat-shifters and dog shifters", and then you have a request for "cat-folk and dog-folk", there's a bit of an overlap.
No there isn't. No more than there is between Elves, Eldarin, and Drow. And humans and their 6, 7, 8 or however many off-shoots.
Which, in my completely-not-humble opinion, is a better option than having several overlapping primal races, with catfolk and cat shifters each requiring different feats, PPs, and traits to accomplish the same catlike flavor.
And there's your other problem. You automatically assume Animal = Primal. That is not the case. Katta are the most civilized race after humans in tth QfG world. Kilrathi were the most advanced species in the galaxy until the humans arrived, and they still dominated the humans until the humans blew their damn homeworld up.
Animal race does not = Primal race.
Triton sounds interesting - I don't know much about previous edition Triton, but "merfolk" in general sound interesting.
The merfolk from M:tG I always loved - fish people much closer to "Sahaugin" or "Kua Toa" than "Ladies with fins".
Widespread disappointment with the PHB3 and already people are setting themselves up for disappointment with PHB4. Give yourselves a break.
I'm not disapppinted with the PHB3 at all. And I don't actually expect an animal race in PHB4, it's just something I'd like to see eventually.
Hey CM..Both of us are on the same wavelength right now. It annoys me so much that people think Animal=Primal.
It doesn't annoy me, but it does bother me. It's the same kind of rigid thinking that causes arguments like "why do we have Tempest Fighters and Two Weapon Rangers," when (especially after the errata) they both perform completely different roles.
And there's your other problem. You automatically assume Animal = Primal. That is not the case. Katta are the most civilized race after humans in tth QfG world. Kilrathi were the most advanced species in the galaxy until the humans arrived, and they still dominated the humans until the humans blew their damn homeworld up.
Primal was indeed a poor choice of words, was looking for a way to convey Race That Is Fuzzy.
The major problem I guess I am attempting to articulate with the Lupine is that their physical nature seems to be their only defining feature (feel free to cite information that disproves this, having quite a hard time finding any). Mystara lore talks all about how many types of Lupine there are, from the Grand Bloodhound to the Carrasquito to the Ogrish Chow-Chow to the Heldann Shepherd....but what does Lupine itself bring to the table beyond "A race that looks like a dog"?
Physical appearance alone doesn't define a race. Elves, Drow, and Eladrin are distinct because they are completely different facets of the elf concept, mechanically and flavorfully unique, lending themselves to different feats and styles, Paragon Paths and racial abilities. By comparison, does the Lupine bring anything to the table that cannot be accomplished by the statistics for the Gnoll, a racial power swap that gives the Shifter a Fixed Form ability (thus indicating a different sort of bloodline which has set animalistic features and a power that expresses it), or the reflavored appearance of another species?
Part of the big reason why I want the race is not only to be able to play it, but also so that there is at least some chance that minitures will be made for it that are more apporiate for my more "furry" characters.
Of course I don't just have furry characters, I do have a number of human characters that i play in 3.5. Some of which I really want to play but the current campain didn't really allow for the bookworm, and we already had a battle sorc. (In addition, I've just now finished the Idea behind my Magic missle master.)
Primal was indeed a poor choice of words, was looking for a way to convey Race That Is Fuzzy.
The major problem I guess I am attempting to articulate with the Lupine is that their physical nature seems to be their only defining feature (feel free to cite information that disproves this, having quite a hard time finding any). Mystara lore talks all about how many types of Lupine there are, from the Grand Bloodhound to the Carrasquito to the Ogrish Chow-Chow to the Heldann Shepherd....but what does Lupine itself bring to the table beyond "A race that looks like a dog"?
Lupin actually had what in 3e would amount to starting with the Scent and Blind Fighting feat, as well as other bonuses to detecting invisible or hidden foes, and enhanced hearing. Not sure what would work for that in 4e, but it's enough to be made into distinct racial traits. They also had infravision, which would probably be turned into Low Light, but it'd be nice to have another race with Darkvision without having to spend a feat.
Note that there are more possibilities than just the Lupin, and a race that formerly had few defining characteristics can be made to have them.
Physical appearance alone doesn't define a race. Elves, Drow, and Eladrin are distinct because they are completely different facets of the elf concept, mechanically and flavorfully unique, lending themselves to different feats and styles, Paragon Paths and racial abilities. By comparison, does the Lupine bring anything to the table that cannot be accomplished by the statistics for the Gnoll, a racial power swap that gives the Shifter a Fixed Form ability (thus indicating a different sort of bloodline which has set animalistic features and a power that expresses it), or the reflavored appearance of another species?
And besides what was mentioned above, and the fact that nothing the Gnolls or Shifters have mechanically fit the Lupin, culturally they're a lot different too, as different from Shifters and Gnolls as Eladrin are from Elves. Lupion are civilized, swashbucklers, and resembled Renaissance era French or Italians, with an earlier history of being Steppes dwellers like the Turkic groups.
And there's your other problem. You automatically assume Animal = Primal. That is not the case. Katta are the most civilized race after humans in tth QfG world. Kilrathi were the most advanced species in the galaxy until the humans arrived, and they still dominated the humans until the humans blew their damn homeworld up.
Primal was indeed a poor choice of words, was looking for a way to convey Race That Is Fuzzy.
The major problem I guess I am attempting to articulate with the Lupine is that their physical nature seems to be their only defining feature (feel free to cite information that disproves this, having quite a hard time finding any). Mystara lore talks all about how many types of Lupine there are, from the Grand Bloodhound to the Carrasquito to the Ogrish Chow-Chow to the Heldann Shepherd....but what does Lupine itself bring to the table beyond "A race that looks like a dog"?
Physical appearance alone doesn't define a race. Elves, Drow, and Eladrin are distinct because they are completely different facets of the elf concept, mechanically and flavorfully unique, lending themselves to different feats and styles, Paragon Paths and racial abilities. By comparison, does the Lupine bring anything to the table that cannot be accomplished by the statistics for the Gnoll, a racial power swap that gives the Shifter a Fixed Form ability (thus indicating a different sort of bloodline which has set animalistic features and a power that expresses it), or the reflavored appearance of another species?
The only reason why you say that about elves, drow and eladrin is because they are already set into 4e, thus they become more acceptable.
But if for a moment you would pretend you don't know anything about drow or eladrin and know only about Elves, and I came to you wanting a unforantly obscure race of dark skinned elves, you would end up probally saying the same thing against them.
Why Have Drow when you can "racial swap" elves to have cloud of darkness instead? Or reflavor the appearance of changeling? (lol)
Why have Eladrin when you can racial swap elves with the ability to teleport, or reflavor the appearnce of Shadri-kai? Or use the stats of whatever it was Eladrin have.
Ah, because Drow=/=Elf=/=Eladrin.
Its the same thing with Lupin. Just because they look like shifters if you squint, close one eye and cover the other in lemon juice doesn't mean that Proxy-Connection: keep-alive
Cache-Control: max-age=0
pin=Shifter.
Lupins however, Have more idenity in 2.0 edition.. granted, I've not read too much of it myself, but Its like Drow vs Elves. You would never say an Elf is a Drow or a Drow is an Elf, because thier culters are so different.
Primal was indeed a poor choice of words, was looking for a way to convey Race That Is Fuzzy.
The major problem I guess I am attempting to articulate with the Lupine is that their physical nature seems to be their only defining feature (feel free to cite information that disproves this, having quite a hard time finding any). Mystara lore talks all about how many types of Lupine there are, from the Grand Bloodhound to the Carrasquito to the Ogrish Chow-Chow to the Heldann Shepherd....but what does Lupine itself bring to the table beyond "A race that looks like a dog"?
Lupin actually had what in 3e would amount to starting with the Scent and Blind Fighting feat, as well as other bonuses to detecting invisible or hidden foes, and enhanced hearing. Not sure what would work for that in 4e, but it's enough to be made into distinct racial traits. They also had infravision, which would probably be turned into Low Light, but it'd be nice to have another race with Darkvision without having to spend a feat.
Note that there are more possibilities than just the Lupin, and a race that formerly had few defining characteristics can be made to have them.Physical appearance alone doesn't define a race. Elves, Drow, and Eladrin are distinct because they are completely different facets of the elf concept, mechanically and flavorfully unique, lending themselves to different feats and styles, Paragon Paths and racial abilities. By comparison, does the Lupine bring anything to the table that cannot be accomplished by the statistics for the Gnoll, a racial power swap that gives the Shifter a Fixed Form ability (thus indicating a different sort of bloodline which has set animalistic features and a power that expresses it), or the reflavored appearance of another species?
And besides what was mentioned above, and the fact that nothing the Gnolls or Shifters have mechanically fit the Lupin, culturally they're a lot different too, as different from Shifters and Gnolls as Eladrin are from Elves. Lupion are civilized, swashbucklers, and resembled Renaissance era French or Italians, with an earlier history of being Steppes dwellers like the Turkic groups.
Pretty much what Celtic said here.
in 3.5 Lupins also rode horses, and had the riding skill for free and a +2 to riding checks because they relied on them so much. Gnolls don't rely that heavily on horses. Shifters might, onlyProxy-Connection: keep-alive Cache-Control: max-age=0 ecause shifters are a John Doe race.
in 2.0 each subrace had its own abilities. Renadous Folk could Taunt the enemy, making them easier to hit. Ye Great Dogge could essenitally cast bless, and remove fear. Carrasquito could move through hindering terrain. Burrow Bandits could fit in small areas easily. Wolvenfolk could raise from the dead.
Lupins could howl as well, allowing them to communicate from a huge distance.
Its the same thing with Lupin. Just because they look like shifters if you squint, close one eye and cover the other in lemon juice doesn't mean that Lupin=Shifter.
One is a race descended from gnolls, one is descended from lycanthropes. One has anthropomorphic features, the other has animalistic features. One is flavored towards canines, the other is flavored toward canines (half the time). One has abilities linked to scent and senses, the other has abilities linked to scent and senses. One is really fuzzy, the other becomes fuzzy.
Look, I get the idea that Lupin aren't Shifters. That isn't my point. What I am saying is that when you have one race that is flavored toward "being like canines and felines", and you want to add another that is flavored toward "being like canines", there might just be a way to fold the concepts together without losing anything, even if the way that each is like dogs and cats is slightly different. It's the same reason why, for example, Half-Ogres can be handwaved away to be Goliath, despite differences in appearance and culture.
If you wanted to split the races, that would mean having all things canine-inspired duplicated. It would mean all feats would have to be doubled so that your scent feat had a dogfolk and a dogshifter version, your packhunting feat would have a dogfolk and dogshifter version, and your tracking feat would have a dogfolk and dogshifter version, along with duplications of all paragon paths, gear, and other mechanical features be split between two canine-inispired races with reasonably similar stats.
Or you could solve two problems at once. You mentioned earlier that Shifters aren't shifty enough. And I agree; regeneration alone doesn't convey the transformation quite enough.
So if you took Shifters in their current form as a baseline and expanded them in a supplement, you could have the entire race be divided by how well their bloodlines merged together. The current Shifters are the most common baseline, with fairly decent integration, yet some transformation occurs. Ferals have wildly divergent bloodlines; they appear mostly human, but their shift transforms them into a far more beastial state, with greater mental strain changing their psyches. Meanwhile, Purebred have almost perfect integration between their two origins, resulting in a streamlined form that has merged the animal and human characteristics into a single form.
In other words, normal Shifters, all-out-werecreatures, and Lupine/Catfolk/whatever-other-animal-inspired-creature-you-want, all unified by their association with animals and flavored slightly differently. Meanwhile, feat support and PPs are far simpler, you have a unifying origin story that still allows exploring different aspects of the concept, and you can use the same base mechanics with a simple racial power swap for each group.
That spares you the trouble of duplicating feats or having three animal-like races with identical stats, and helps make what we currently have even more compelling.
Lupins aren't decedent of Gnolls. They were orignally created by Pflarr, a jackel headed humanoid who was in turn created by a wizard. Orignally they where the Hutaakans, who were created in Pflarr's imagine. Gnolls came in and invaded, destroying the homelands of the Hutaakan, who slowly developed weaker bloodlines becoming less jackel like and more various breeds of dogs, or the Lupin.
The Lupin of course occasionally took in some Gnollblood lines, but they also took in blink-dog and foo dog lines. Along with the occassionall lycanthrope. (even though there is a huge racial hate vs werewolves.) Humans belived though that the Lupin were decendents of the gnolls or werewolves because of these events.
No, you don't really get that lupin are not shifters as Drow are not elves. To you, because of a highly simplified point of view on the lupin race, you have simplified both shifters and lupin the point of being "dog people" Like how Elves and Eladrin can be simplified into "Pointy eared humans"
Lupins aren't decedent of Gnolls. They were orignally created by Pflarr, a jackel headed humanoid who was in turn created by a wizard. Orignally they where the Hutaakans, who were created in Pflarr's imagine. Gnolls came in and invaded, destroying the homelands of the Hutaakan, who slowly developed weaker bloodlines becoming less jackel like and more various breeds of dogs, or the Lupin.
The Lupin of course occasionally took in some Gnollblood lines, but they also took in blink-dog and foo dog lines. Along with the occassionall lycanthrope. (even though there is a huge racial hate vs werewolves.) Humans belived though that the Lupin were decendents of the gnolls or werewolves because of these events.
............................So, basically, cross out "descended from gnolls", write in "descended from gnolls, blink-dogs (
), lychantropes, and a magical experiment who's origin is A Wizard Did It."Does that make the commentary on the mechanical implications of splitting the shared-canine-themed races versus having a unified and cohesive group any less valid?
They do not mesh. They do not work. Their mechanics do not work. Shifters and Gnolls do not and should not and most likely will not prevent other actual animal humanoids from existing. Because they are fully capable of being mechanically distinct.
You can stick your fingers in your ears and sing all day long that they can work with race feats, but your wrong. The divide is exactly the same as the Elf/Drow/Eladrin divide. Or better yet, the Human/Shifter/Shadar-Kai/Half-Elf/Half-Orc/Genasi/Tiefling/Changeling/Kalashtar divide.
Seriously, this is just like the pre-EPG argument that Kalashtar would just be reflavored Deva.
This is just opinion -
They do not mesh. They do not work. Their mechanics do not work. Shifters and Gnolls do not and should not and most likely will not prevent other actual animal humanoids from existing. Because they are fully capable of being mechanically distinct.
Then show me.
Let us say, for a moment, that I presented you with a Lupin Race. It has bonuses to Strength and Wisdom, Athletics and Endurance, thus indicating a creature who's canine blood gives it keen senses and hardy build. It has feats that boost tracking (because tracking is, of course, core to the canine theme), as well as low light vision to further indicate superior senses. And it has a racial power distinctly tied to its canine heritage, to be decided later.
Would these stats be acceptable? Because sans racial power, that's a Shifter. And with a single option to swap racial powers for something else, that mold can become quite a few different things.
If you are going to say they do not work, show me what a Lupin must have that a current mechanic does not offer. Logical evidence is all it takes for my position to crumble into dust, but you have to provide something distinct to the Lupine, something impossible to imagine through the use of current mechanics. To be a valid race for a new handbook, it has to offer something unique, something that cannot be done at present.
Show me why they would be mechanically distinct, and I will have no problem supporting the Lupin. But as of yet, everyone just keeps repeating that they CAN be distinct without offering a pratical explanation of HOW.
Edit:
Fine, how about
+2 Str, +2 Dex or Wis
+2 Perception, +2 Endurance
Darkvision
Common, one other
Ability to know where any invisble/hidden creature is that's adjacant to you, with a feat to increase it's range - maybe make the starting range within 2 or 3 squares
No penalty to partial cover attacks
bonus to damage versus bloodied enemies, though that'd tread on the Tieflings
bonus to tracking independent of the Perception boost
Intimidation based Encounter power, similar to the Changeling Trick power - but instead of giving you CA, it either gives CA to allies, or maybe Marks
A flying race would probably create more problems than it would be worth, but might be amusing.
An amphibious race would probably bring something to the table w/o breaking too much.
Gee, maybe that's because I'm not a game designer? I'm not going to show you because I don't know how to make a well balanced race. But just because I can't doesn't mean you're right. The Elves and Humans have already proven you wrong. Repeatedly.
Edit:
Fine, how about
+2 Str, +2 Dex or Wis
+2 Perception, +2 Endurance
Darkvision
Common, one other
Ability to know where any invisble/hidden creature is that's adjacant to you, with a feat to increase it's range - maybe make the starting range within 2 or 3 squares
No penalty to partial cover attacks
bonus to damage versus bloodied enemies, though that'd tread on the Tieflings
bonus to tracking independent of the Perception boost
Intimidation based Encounter power, similar to the Changeling Trick power - but instead of giving you CA, it either gives CA to allies, or maybe Marks
See, now we are getting somewhere. The focus on senses and perception is a valid idea, the notion of a race with a great nose, incredible hearing, or just a sixth sense that lets it percieve what is around it.
You could approach this from a Shifter package "Purebred Lupine, gain these stats, these skill bonuses, and a Keen Hunter power that lets you detect creatures through blindness/invisibility/hiding, etc". But that could easily be boring, especially if the powers in question were a far cry from the current package.
But it would also be valid to assert that some of these ideas demand their own race, if you have enough background and a way to divide it from the current setup. The attribute bonuses are too close to Shifters at present (and the tracking feat has been done, but that can be copied), and the encounter power needs solidification. Finding its own footing might require a little distancing away from the current animalistic races, and attributes help in that regard. At the same time, however, the senses concept is a solid one, and expanding upon it would do quite well.
If you wanted to borrow a bit, concepts like increasing bonuses to teamwork (similar to the Kenku's aid another bonus, indicating pack behavior) would do nicely, especially if it could be combined with the sense ability (for example a feat that allowed you to flush out hidden foes to allow allies to see them).
Providing ideas allows discussion. If you want to say that something is unique and should have its own stats, you have to demonstrate something about it that would actually BE unique, not just declare that it exists. And this is a fairly decent idea, there isn't much in the current racial setup that puts major emphasis on senses and perception.
Proof of concept is far superior to merely alluding that the concept might be out there. Helps a lot when you want to make a point.
I'd be tempted to do Wis plus Str or Dex, which would make them the only race good for both Seeker builds (well, only race with the exact same race traits other than ability scoes, opposed to Shifters) and all Ranger builds, and good for ranged Warlords, which covers most of the Hun/Turk/Mongol concepts. That'd be close to the Shifter territory stat wise though.
But honestly every logical stat pair is going to make them close to either the Shifters or Gnolls ability score wise, so it as with every race with same stat pairs it's best to focus elsewhere. I suppose you could do Wis + Str or Con, or Con + Wis or Str, but then you'd have people complaining about them stepping on the Minotaurs and Muls.
I'd rather have a sentient Cat or Dog - rather than another "Man-imal". Didn't they experiment with "Sentient Animal" as a possible character option? It would certainly have been more unique.
This is just opinion -
As much as that would be incredibly interesting, wouldn't there be issues on equipment? I mean, if a race doesn't have the same.... ability to wear armor, wield weapons, or magic items, how does it work in the whole of the game? They'd lose essential bonuses and extra powers... Though... let me contemplate this a while.
There are definately solution..
1) Barding (Instead of Armor)
2) Collar (Instead of Necklace)
3) Earings (Instead of Rings)
4) Body Paints (Instead of Boots, Gloves)
OR -
Just use the rules from DMG 2 that provide natural bonuses.
===
There is always a solution.
They do not mesh. They do not work. Their mechanics do not work. Shifters and Gnolls do not and should not and most likely will not prevent other actual animal humanoids from existing. Because they are fully capable of being mechanically distinct.
Then show me.
Let us say, for a moment, that I presented you with a Lupin Race. It has bonuses to Strength and Wisdom, Athletics and Endurance, thus indicating a creature who's canine blood gives it keen senses and hardy build. It has feats that boost tracking (because tracking is, of course, core to the canine theme), as well as low light vision to further indicate superior senses. And it has a racial power distinctly tied to its canine heritage, to be decided later.
Would these stats be acceptable? Because sans racial power, that's a Shifter. And with a single option to swap racial powers for something else, that mold can become quite a few different things.
If you are going to say they do not work, show me what a Lupin must have that a current mechanic does not offer. Logical evidence is all it takes for my position to crumble into dust, but you have to provide something distinct to the Lupine, something impossible to imagine through the use of current mechanics. To be a valid race for a new handbook, it has to offer something unique, something that cannot be done at present.
Show me why they would be mechanically distinct, and I will have no problem supporting the Lupin. But as of yet, everyone just keeps repeating that they CAN be distinct without offering a pratical explanation of HOW.
First off, why it doesn't work.
As I've pointed out again and again, Lupins are NOT shapeshifters. Shifters are. Or rather should be, but WotC never printed racial traits thus creating this John Doe of races calling it a shifter. Then they seperated the single race into two races.
Which is why you are so convinced that these fuzzy humans = Dog people.
If you combine the Not shapeshifter and say its part of this shapeshifter race, you get some really jacked up stuff. Like trying to combine drow with changelings. It just doesn't work even though they have some very similar stuff.
Now if we were talking about Hygeokin from Oriental Adventures, It would be a compleatly different story. Because Both them and Shifters are shapeshifters. Thus the Subtype matches.
So going by your suggestion of "Dog head = Shifter" we have a race that is first of all, primal. Every bit of art for it will be this barechested man running around getting all angry over everything. Not a race that is a well dressed "Dogboy" carring a rapier or the like.
Secondly, you start having issues with feats.
Because the shifter is (supposed to be) a shapechanger, we will have feats that are more focused on the shapeshifting aspect. The bastardized lupin race crammed into the shifter's skin would end up being able to take those powers.
Otherwise you begin having to essentially divide the race within itself between the Nonshapeshifter portion and the Shapeshifter portion. So basically you still two races, but you crammed them together, and pretend its one race because "Lol, doghead." (Even though the shifter race is for whatever reason two races. )
And Gnolls don't work either. Remember "No evil races" mantra that so many people, I belive even you, spew on these forums. Much of that was directed at making Gnolls a truely official race, not just a passing artical and a random feet after a year or so.
(I wonder why Minotaurs were made, and you don't throw a stink over that, even though they have the same stats as a longtooth shifter, is also a fuzzy, and a number of other things that you could find in common.)
But just because you asked..
So how would I design Lupin?
First..
+2 Wisdom. Yes I know.. But there are six stats and wisdom does represent perception/insight.
+2 ??? This is a cool little neeto trick here.
+2 Perception, cause even the weakest Lupin still had some increased senses.
+2 ???
Low-Light Vision, because Crimson Concetro will have a fit if they were given darkvision.
Languages: Common, Lupin
Traits:
Howling: Allows communication over long distances, via howling.
Increased Scent: Can track Via scent, instead of tracks.
Racial powers..
Ye Great Dogge
+2 Strength
+2 Athletics
Fearless: You and each ally with in 5, gain +1 defense to fear based attacks.
Encounter - Glory of the Fellowland
Until the end of your next turn, all allies within 5 gain +2 on attack rolls, +2 on damage.
Renadous Folk
+2 Cha
+2 Acrobatics
Dashing: +2 to bluff or Diplomacy checks when dealing with members of the opposite gender.
Encounter - Can't get me
Monster within 5
Make a bluff check vs monsters passive perception.
Monster is marked by you until end of your next turn and grants combat advantage.
Wolvenfolk
+2 Con
+2 Endurance
Deaths Gate: Whenever you spend a healing surge, roll a 1d6 and add it to the ammount that is healed.
Encounter: Return from Death
Self
When you are reduced to 0 HP, you may spend a healing surge. If you do, you gain 1hp and temp hp equal to your healing surge value.
Thats just a few of them. Granted, none of it is really done in balance, but goes to show How Lupin would work.
Yeah, I would give up all the magical items in the world - to play a frigg'n sentient Wolf or something.
There are definately solution..
1) Barding (Instead of Armor)
2) Collar (Instead of Necklace)
3) Earings (Instead of Rings)
4) Body Paints (Instead of Boots, Gloves)
OR -
Just use the rules from DMG 2 that provide natural bonuses.
===
There is always a solution.
Actually boots/gloves could be those little booties you see on sled dogs.
The hard part is weapons.
/snip
Apparently you missed the conversation CelticMutt and I just started in which he presented ideas that DID make the race mechanically unique.
Which is all I ask.
Good or evil, animal or vegetable or mineral, small or large, green or black or blue or pink or brown, ancient or unprecedented, all I demand is that each proposed race justify why it is mechanically, flavorfully, and thematically unique to the game. Because that is what makes the game better; new options that have never been explored.
Saying "But they are always fuzzy!" doesn't make them new. Saying that they have a different origin doesn't make them new. Throwing out random mechanics without a cohesive whole doesn't make them new. It requires unity of the ideas, concepts, and mechanics to create a new race that is interesting, compelling, and broadening to the horizons of the edition.
(I wonder why Minotaurs were made, and you don't throw a stink over that, even though they have the same stats as a longtooth shifter, is also a fuzzy, and a number of other things that you could find in common.)
Because it fulfills my criteria. It was mechanically different (especially Ferocity, and although there was a bit too much emphasis on the charge, it was appropriate for the creature in question), offered a compelling psychology with the nature of the labyrinthe psychology and mastery of the self, and presented several character hooks that offer reasons to roleplay the race. Ergo, it created itself a new niche.
The problem that I have had with your assertion of the Lupin race is that you haven't been showing how they would be unique, all you have talked about is appearance and a bit of flavor. Now that you are actually starting to demonstrate mechanical packages, that is something that can be properly examined, because to justify a racial stat block, you need crunch. Crunchy bits form the foundation of a new stat block, and if you don't have unique mechanics that deserve attention, then reflavoring is a perfectly valid counter.
In regards to your crunch, by the way....
1) No new languages. They are a bad idea.
2) Howl and Scent aren't proper traits. The former isn't specific enough (because a howl's distance will vary depending on area, etc), and the latter should be clarified; "Roll twice when making a Perception check to follow tracks, use either result" is the form used by the Wild Senses feat. Neither is "bonus when dealing with the opposite gender", by the way.
3) The rest of your abilities lack consistent flavor. The idea is a decent one, to have different mechanics based off of breed, but perhaps it would be best left to racial feats, similar to how campaign settings use them to distinguish between nationalities. Either that, or like the Genasi, you will need a way to ensure that each is balanced (which might entail dropping the floating stat).
If you can demonstrate something solid, as CelticMutt has done, that's a decent foundation to discussing why the race deserves a place in print. But merely saying that they are unique without demonstrating why is not sufficient, because every new race needs to have its own niche to broaden the horizons of the game.
You're beginning to get there, because you have an interesting possibility with the different breeds, but without a consistent vision, it isn't enough.
The hard part is weapons.
Very true.
The major problem with any race that isn't humanoid is fine manipulation, the ability to grasp, wield, and use weapons and implements. That's the problem a sentient dog ends up with; any class that uses weapons will be barred to it, unless you try to justify wielding a sword with his teeth. Which, like the booties, is a cute image, but isn't always going to fly.
Dragoncat, go read dragon 237, then come back to me.
Get me a copy, and I will.
Otherwise, cite your info, because justifying a position by saying "In this thing, which you can't see, there is proof of my argument" isn't valid.
And no, It won't be every fricken dog breed in the world. Only a handful of them right now. Maybe later other breeds would be added.
The "breeds" might also be divided into Guardian, Hunter, Vermin Hunter.. ect.
Wisdom is a stationary stat- which makes only a possbile 5 different combos.
And your point is?
More than anything else, this reveals a problem; the race itself is all over the place. Some are smart, some are stupid, some agile, some clumsy, some wise, some foolish, some dashing, some bland, some strong, some frail. Some are martial, some are mystical, some are valiant, some are sinister, some wield fire, some are close to death, some inspire courage.
If you want to turn all that into a 4th edition race, you need to distill it down. A lot.
That will mean either picking a few of the breeds that are most common, or finding particular traits that they all share. And it will all have to do so in a way that is unique and compelling, because it has to have a niche.
If you want to present the race as a valid contender, you will need a baseline for the average Lupin. Particular bloodlines would best be reserved for feats, although you might have a genasi-style variation that divides Guardians, Hunters, Shepherds, Vermin Hunters, Workers, Wee Folk, Mongrels, and Nomads (although even then, cutting it down a bit might help).
As it is, this thing won't work, but if you make the effort, it might have potential. It needs further refinement, which is why I'm harping on your efforts in the first place.
This is also just a rough creation on the race, not some flawless design that puts even the heavens to shame.
Course.. there are other things.. -.-....
Good olde tables. Brings back memories.
More than anything else, this reveals a problem; the race itself is all over the place. Some are smart, some are stupid, some agile, some clumsy, some wise, some foolish, some dashing, some bland, some strong, some frail. Some are martial, some are mystical, some are valiant, some are sinister, some wield fire, some are close to death, some inspire courage.
If you want to turn all that into a 4th edition race, you need to distill it down. A lot.
That will mean either picking a few of the breeds that are most common, or finding particular traits that they all share. And it will all have to do so in a way that is unique and compelling, because it has to have a niche.
If you want to present the race as a valid contender, you will need a baseline for the average Lupin. Particular bloodlines would best be reserved for feats, although you might have a genasi-style variation that divides Guardians, Hunters, Shepherds, Vermin Hunters, Workers, Wee Folk, Mongrels, and Nomads (although even then, cutting it down a bit might help).
As it is, this thing won't work, but if you make the effort, it might have potential. It needs further refinement, which is why I'm harping on your efforts in the first place.
I'd probably just go +Con/+Wis for the lot of 'em, myself. I tend to think of dogs as having lots of endurance, and +wis seems to be the go-to stat for creatures with better-than-average senses. Past that, it'd just be a matter of describing what you look like and maybe some racial feats.
Good olde tables. Brings back memories.
More than anything else, this reveals a problem; the race itself is all over the place. Some are smart, some are stupid, some agile, some clumsy, some wise, some foolish, some dashing, some bland, some strong, some frail. Some are martial, some are mystical, some are valiant, some are sinister, some wield fire, some are close to death, some inspire courage.
If you want to turn all that into a 4th edition race, you need to distill it down. A lot.
That will mean either picking a few of the breeds that are most common, or finding particular traits that they all share. And it will all have to do so in a way that is unique and compelling, because it has to have a niche.
If you want to present the race as a valid contender, you will need a baseline for the average Lupin. Particular bloodlines would best be reserved for feats, although you might have a genasi-style variation that divides Guardians, Hunters, Shepherds, Vermin Hunters, Workers, Wee Folk, Mongrels, and Nomads (although even then, cutting it down a bit might help).
As it is, this thing won't work, but if you make the effort, it might have potential. It needs further refinement, which is why I'm harping on your efforts in the first place.
You see, I've actually been removing races off the list.
No small races -a race that is both small/medium doesn't work well in 4ed
No mongrals - Would be created by taking feats similar to a gensai that changed elemental manifestation.
Several races are also removed due to thier racial abilites not working well in 4e.
Like the Basset hound and Begal, no racial ability there to use in 4e. So they are axed. least for now.
The three I picked so far, Are three that have some potential of working in 4e. The Strong guy, The Deathwalker, and The Dashing Guy.
Bulldog could also work.
), the only Minotaur ever seen is a good guy, and the first game came out in 1989. In fact, this month 1989. Dude .... 21 years of Quest for Gloriousness ....Err, where was I? Oh yeah ....
As to doing up Lupins to represent multiple breeds of dogs, well that is one case where feats actually would be better, like with what's being done in some of the Winning Races articles, and FR before that. As long as they're not as crappy as the Dusk Elves at least .....
For that, It could be seperated into
Guardians - +2 Str
Hunters - +2 Cha
Vermin Hunters - +2 Con
Wee Folk - +2 Dex
Worker - +2 Int
Of course better names would be done. Each could have some sort of power or something. Then feats would rely on the "sub-type".
EDIT
Non-evil gnoll was actually in one of 2.0 books way back when.
That's pretty complex for a 4th Edition race - are they compelled to sniff each other's butts, establish dominance, chase carts, and pee on knights in shining armor?
EDIT
Non-evil gnoll was actually in one of 2.0 books way back when.
The only one I can think of Complete Humanoids, and even then they weren't really that non-evil. As I recall, the book said that non-evil Gnolls were incredibly rare individuals, whereas the Dragon article presents entire tribes/societies of non-evil Gnolls.
Except some breeds are stronger than others. Some are more agile. some are tougher, some are smarter. (One of the reason with shifters I dislike them being two races instead of 1)
For that, It could be seperated into
Guardians - +2 Str
Hunters - +2 Cha
Vermin Hunters - +2 Con
Wee Folk - +2 Dex
Worker - +2 Int
Of course better names would be done. Each could have some sort of power or something. Then feats would rely on the "sub-type".
EDIT
Non-evil gnoll was actually in one of 2.0 books way back when.
Ah, no. No way in HELL. We'll be back to the crazy elf subrace 'pick your stat adjustments' nonsense from 3rd.
Though I did play an Elf who did pee on everything. A trap? Peed on it to disable it. (And it worked too!) A locked door? Peed on it. (didn't work.) A sarcaffogas that we had difficulty pushing? Peed on it to slide it. (Kinda worked, but no-one else would help me push it after that.)
Except some breeds are stronger than others. Some are more agile. some are tougher, some are smarter. (One of the reason with shifters I dislike them being two races instead of 1)
For that, It could be seperated into
Guardians - +2 Str
Hunters - +2 Cha
Vermin Hunters - +2 Con
Wee Folk - +2 Dex
Worker - +2 Int
Of course better names would be done. Each could have some sort of power or something. Then feats would rely on the "sub-type".
EDIT
Non-evil gnoll was actually in one of 2.0 books way back when.
Ah, no. No way in HELL. We'll be back to the crazy elf subrace 'pick your stat adjustments' nonsense from 3rd.
Ah yes, I just knew some people out there would absolutly hate that sort of thing because "too many choices!"
Fine then.
Wis +2 and +2 con or +2 cha
So, what makes a race worth existing? First, it has to have a unique flavor and theme, preferably one that doesn't overlap too much with the flavor of an existing race, but some overlap is fine. Second, it has to have unique mechanics, and while, again, some overlap isn't too big of a deal, there should be enough to distinguish the race as special for some reason. Finally, it should have a unique looks, again with some overlap being okay, but in general, I should be able to look at artwork and tell what race is being depicted.
So then let's compare Cat-Folk to Shifters in terms of these criteria...
1) Would Cat-Folk and Shifters differ thematically? Yes. Shifters are themed with respects to their lycanthropic heritage and the primitive, instinctual fury that comes with it, and while there are many possible ways to theme Cat-Folk, that certainly isn't one that comes to mind. The two most prominant Cat-Folk flavors that come to mind are the aristocrats and the tribal nomads, depending on whether your image of Cat-Folk ties them to the big cats or the little cats. The little cats would be the aristocrats, as we all know that cats have that whole issue of thinking that they're better than everybody else and that everybody is there to serve them. The big cats would be the tribal nomads, swift and efficient hunters that play to the powerful big cat theme. Is there overlap here? Maybe a little bit, but it's certainly not enough to discount the idea right off the bat.
2) Would Cat-Folk and Shifters differ mechanically? Yes. The Shifter mechanics are designed to play up the change in nature towards primitive fury that is such a big part of the Shifter background. However, there's no reason for Cat-Folk mechanics to play up any change towards primitive fury, because that doesn't match the Cat-Folk flavor. Here is an example of how Cat-Folk may be written up mechanically that would emphasize their feline natures. It's not perfect, but it's just an example:
Ability Scores: +2 DEX, and either +2 STR or +2 WIS
Size: Medium
Speed: 7 Squares
Vision: Low-Light
Languages: Common, choice of one other
Skill Bonuses: +2 Perception, +2 Stealth
Kip-Up: You can stand up as a Minor Action instead of as a Move Action.
Righting Reflex: When you fall or jump down, you take only half normal falling damage and always land on your feet.
Pounce: You have the Pounce power
POUNCE Cat-Folk Racial Power
Encounter
Standard Action Personal
Effect: You can shift your speed and then use one of your at-will attack powers. If you shifted more than one half your speed as a result of this power, you fall prone after your attack is resolved.
3) Would Cat-Folk and Shifters differ aesthetically? Yes. A Shifter's appearance makes known the Shifter's Human blood, and while a Shifter's features are certainly much more animalistic than a Human's features, these Shifter features are still at least somewhat familiar as Human, especially when it comes to facial structure and body hair. With this in mind, it would seem trivially easy for the two races to be effectively differentiated artistically. Again, look at the Tiger-Man that I posted earlier in the thread. I don't know anybody who would look at him and think that he was a Shifter.
So, different flavor? Check. Different mechanics? Check. Different appearance? Check.
That sounds like enough to warrant a separate race to me, and I think that you'll find a lot of existing races to be more similar to one another than Cat-Folk are to Shifters. At best, one could compare them to Shardminds and Warforged, both of which are Living Constructs, sharing a vague racial theme while still remaining distinct and unique.
The little cats would be the aristocrats, as we all know that cats have that whole issue of thinking that they're better than everybody else and that everybody is there to serve them.
The little cats would be the aristocrats, as we all know that cats have that whole issue of knowing that they're better than everybody else and that everybody is there to serve them because it is an empirical fact.
Fixed that for you. No need to thank me.
Not sure how you would do them mechanically, maybe +2 con and +2 dex, would being able to count as any Natural origin race be too powerful. Or maybe they can choose another race's racial power as their racial power and can take feats for it and stuff; that would be cool.
I forgot. I'd love to have Horseshoecrabfolk in PH4.
I mentioned them a few pages back
I forgot. I'd love to have Horseshoecrabfolk in PH4.
I mentioned them a few pages back
But I hadn't mentioned them on my wish-list. I mention my wish for them now.
I forgot. I'd love to have Horseshoecrabfolk in PH4.
I mentioned them a few pages back
But I hadn't mentioned them on my wish-list. I mention my wish for them now.
So.
How would one fluff the Horseshoecrabfolk?
With their connection to ancient life and ancestry, I really like the notion of Horseshoecrabfolk as keepers of forgotten lore. Patient, stoic, and methodical, they delve into the mysteries of the world, its past, present, and future. Their magnificent vision (horseshoe crabs have nine eyes in total, two large ones, five small, and two on the underside of the carapace) allows them to observe the turning of the world around them for later transcription, painstakingly inscribing history's secrets onto large monoliths (inspired by the Hedron Crab) of resilient stone to stand the tests of time. Horseshoecrabfolk take a long time to complete any task (for example, they have no jaws, therefore they must grind food with their forelimbs before consumption), but they do so with diligent care and quiet dignity. Inclinded toward the more mystical professions rather than physical might, Horseshoecrabfolk are perhaps most famous as keepers of vestiges, tapping into their connections to the past for power.
And of course, they need an origin. For example: Once, in ages past, Horseshoecrabfolk lived in harmony with two other ancient species, the Ammonitefolk and the Trilobitefolk. Their empire was not vast, stretching only across a few leagues of beach and cove and bay, but it was serene, a union based on a caste system, with ammonite leaders and clerics, trilobite workers and guardians, and horseshoecrab scholars and teachers.
Yet none of this survives, even in song or script. Not long ago by their standards, barely half an era, every single Horseshoecrabfolk across the world awoke at the same instant amidst the shattered fragments of their nation with a gaping hole in their memory of the past year and a day. No recollection, no account, no history records what cataclysm decimated their home or caused their brethren's complete extinction, despite the anguished search of scholars and labored quests of mystics. Now the loss has turned to a quiet sorrow as the horseshoecrabfolk comb the beaches of the world for relics of the lost and signs of the past. Even if they can never find what horror stole their homeland, they can preserve its memory against the weathering of the ages, an enduring memento from the echoes of the past.
My joke was passed up and ignored.
My joke was passed up and ignored.
Nah, you just didn't provide the blue mana. Remember, no man is an island.
Reptiles, we need more reptiles. Sure we've got Dragonborn, but I'm looking for Lizardfolk, Yuan Ti, Kuo Toa.
Dragonborn aren't reptiles, so we don't have any.
As far as elves and eladrin, I think they should be one race: elves. Just like elves in Tolkien and older editions had various sub-races. Drow to em are just dark elves. Elves being the most human-like of races, it is natural that they have a great variety of cultures and physical sub-races also.
Likewise, I see no reason why the Shadar-kai are a race: they are just humans who lived in the Shadowfell too long.
I forgot. I'd love to have Horseshoecrabfolk in PH4.
I mentioned them a few pages back
But I hadn't mentioned them on my wish-list. I mention my wish for them now.
So.
How would one fluff the Horseshoecrabfolk?
With their connection to ancient life and ancestry, I really like the notion of Horseshoecrabfolk as keepers of forgotten lore. Patient, stoic, and methodical, they delve into the mysteries of the world, its past, present, and future. Their magnificent vision (horseshoe crabs have nine eyes in total, two large ones, five small, and two on the underside of the carapace) allows them to observe the turning of the world around them for later transcription, painstakingly inscribing history's secrets onto large monoliths (inspired by the Hedron Crab) of resilient stone to stand the tests of time. Horseshoecrabfolk take a long time to complete any task (for example, they have no jaws, therefore they must grind food with their forelimbs before consumption), but they do so with diligent care and quiet dignity. Inclinded toward the more mystical professions rather than physical might, Horseshoecrabfolk are perhaps most famous as keepers of vestiges, tapping into their connections to the past for power.
And of course, they need an origin. For example: Once, in ages past, Horseshoecrabfolk lived in harmony with two other ancient species, the Ammonitefolk and the Trilobitefolk. Their empire was not vast, stretching only across a few leagues of beach and cove and bay, but it was serene, a union based on a caste system, with ammonite leaders and clerics, trilobite workers and guardians, and horseshoecrab scholars and teachers.
Yet none of this survives, even in song or script. Not long ago by their standards, barely half an era, every single Horseshoecrabfolk across the world awoke at the same instant amidst the shattered fragments of their nation with a gaping hole in their memory of the past year and a day. No recollection, no account, no history records what cataclysm decimated their home or caused their brethren's complete extinction, despite the anguished search of scholars and labored quests of mystics. Now the loss has turned to a quiet sorrow as the horseshoecrabfolk comb the beaches of the world for relics of the lost and signs of the past. Even if they can never find what horror stole their homeland, they can preserve its memory against the weathering of the ages, an enduring memento from the echoes of the past.
Once again, Dragoncat Rocks the World.
And you know, the mention of yuan-ti reminds me of my own thought at giving them PC race stats. More for a "monstrous races" game inspired by Goblins: Life Through Their Eyes and a thought experiment for a 4e Savage Species, but it was an interesting thought. Their racial power would add the poison damage type onto an attack and weaken the target until the end of its next turn.
My joke was passed up and ignored.
Nah, you just didn't provide the blue mana. Remember, no man is an island.
Or is it 'No Mana's An Island'?
What I love most about them is that they seem to be the one thing that we all can agree on.
Think about it. As of the PHB3, we're looking at four races per handbook, one handbook per year. And that produces stiff competition; it is hard to justify 75% of the races in the book being anthropomorphs, even if any single one of them is decent. And those coveted slots mean more than simple writeups; it means a paragon path and feat support across the power sources and classes. It means getting support for thematic class matches, even if their attribute bonuses are subpar. It gives these races an edge over their monster manual counterparts in practically every aspect, enhancing them in their chosen roles and rounding them out in roles they are not quite suited for.
Why should only they get this treatment?
Kobolds should be masters of draconic sorcery. Hobgoblins should have a tactical edge through brutal strategy. Duerger should have a malevolent twist on runic mastery. Kenku's bardic powers should be fascinatingly potent. But none of these races get the level of support granted to all the PHB crowd, especially when it comes to rounding out classes their attributes aren't suited for yet are thematically appropriate.
Likewise, there are plenty of racial concepts that don't see the light of day, because there isn't enough space. The Lupin or Catfolk might be fairly decent on their own, but when they have to compete with Goblins, Kobolds, Centaurs, Satyrs, Hadozee, Lizardfolk, Raptoran, Tengu, Naga, Dromite...
And what of the partials, hybrids, and afflictions? The ability to play as an undead would be fantastic, and a simple multiclass path like the Spellscarred would accomplish this task easily. Likewise, there are plenty of races inspired by changes to an existing species; mutated, tainted, ascended, etc, like the Elan and Shadar-kai. Finally, you have all the half-X races of fame.
If they can make two books with more to come about equipment, they can easily make a volume that targets a different individual facet of gameplay. And with a complete racial writeup only requiring three pages including its paragon path, which could probably be compressed to two, you could have anywhere from fifty to seventy races, with feat support, in a single book, all with thematic hooks, a compelling origin, and mechanical innovations.
Four races in handbooks that only emerge once a year simply aren't enough.
There is a crud load we can throw in.
Folk
You can pick up various animal traits to become things like Horseshoecrab folk, or Flyfolk, or platapus folk.
I don't know what the stat here would be for folk. Probally str or con + wis.
Then you pick an aspect.. Like a exoskeleton to get some sort of defense ability, or such things.
Lupin
A specilized anthro, who is dogs. Probally Wis with Con or Dex.
Feline
Cat anthro.. wis with Dex or cha + wis.
Devati
If they ever can be balanced.. Cha with Int or Wis.
Not-Evil Goblin
Not-Evil Kobolds.. Hey we have Deekin after all.
Then a bunch of other races I can think of right now.
More than anything else, this thread makes me conclude that we need a Big Book of Races.
My only objection to this is that unlike 3.x, in 4e they promised us that anything they introduce won't be forgotten about in later books.
The more races they release in one book, the greater their obligation in future books.
changelings and gnolls would like a word with you raven
Changelings keep getting feats, though they're few and tend to be not all that great.
Gnolls were published in Dragon and shouldn't expect to get anything outside of Dragon. But they are due for something.
They're having a hard enough time keeping up with what they've got. Tossing a couple dozen new races would just make things worse.
More than anything else, this thread makes me conclude that we need a Big Book of Races.
My only objection to this is that unlike 3.x, in 4e they promised us that anything they introduce won't be forgotten about in later books.
The more races they release in one book, the greater their obligation in future books.
How many monster manual races already lie forgotten in a dark drawer? They have no support, no updates, no further expansion, except perhaps the phantom promise of a future supplement or dragon article.
It would be far better, in my opinion, to have a book or three that dealt with these races on its own, and had support contained within them. Because a single entry and some support is far better to never getting a writeup in the first place.
More than anything else, this thread makes me conclude that we need a Big Book of Races.
My only objection to this is that unlike 3.x, in 4e they promised us that anything they introduce won't be forgotten about in later books.
The more races they release in one book, the greater their obligation in future books.
How many monster manual races already lie forgotten in a dark drawer? They have no support, no updates, no further expansion, except perhaps the phantom promise of a future supplement or dragon article.
It would be far better, in my opinion, to have a book or three that dealt with these races on its own, and had support contained within them. Because a single entry and some support is far better to never getting a writeup in the first place.
Monster Manual races aren't supposed to get support. They're monsters. The write-ups back there are for NPCs. Or for PCs who wanted to play their favourite Drow, Changeling, Githzerai, Minotaur, Gnoll, Shadar-kai, Gnome, or Warforged before they released PC write-ups for them.
Monster Manual races aren't supposed to get support. They're monsters.
But Kobolds are people too!
Still, maybe it is about time they DID get support. And why not? We've had kobold PCs before, we've had goblin PCs before, we've had lizardman PCs before. Isn't it about time we had a product that gave these themes proper support and brought forth new and interesting ideas at the same time, some of which involved horseshoe crabs?
Monster Manual races aren't supposed to get support. They're monsters.
But Kobolds are people too!
Still, maybe it is about time they DID get support. And why not? We've had kobold PCs before, we've had goblin PCs before, we've had lizardman PCs before. Isn't it about time we had a product that gave these themes proper support and brought forth new and interesting ideas at the same time, some of which involved horseshoe crabs?
Only if they thematically fit the book they're included in.
Monster Manual races aren't supposed to get support. They're monsters.
But Kobolds are people too!
Still, maybe it is about time they DID get support. And why not? We've had kobold PCs before, we've had goblin PCs before, we've had lizardman PCs before. Isn't it about time we had a product that gave these themes proper support and brought forth new and interesting ideas at the same time, some of which involved horseshoe crabs?
Only if they thematically fit the book they're included in.
That's the joy of a Big Book of Races.
All the aquatic races fit into its Races of the Waves chapter. All its savage races fit into its Races of Savagery chapter. All its fuzzy races fit into its Races of Fuzziness chapter. All its Horseshoecrabfolk fit into its Races of the Awesome Beaches chapter.
Just like Adventurer's Vault doesn't need to thematically fit all its items together, a racial supplement would be all inclusive by virtue of being a Big Book of This Thing Which Needs Support. And since it would include feat support and paragon paths, it works as a stand alone product, as well as the possibility of BBoR 2 including even more critters.
Volume 1, 2 and 3.. minimum.I prefer books that have a central theme – a story to them, rather than a crapton of options that don't tie together nicely.
Monster Manual races aren't supposed to get support. They're monsters.
But Kobolds are people too!
Still, maybe it is about time they DID get support. And why not? We've had kobold PCs before, we've had goblin PCs before, we've had lizardman PCs before. Isn't it about time we had a product that gave these themes proper support and brought forth new and interesting ideas at the same time, some of which involved horseshoe crabs?
Only if they thematically fit the book they're included in.
That's the joy of a Big Book of Races.
All the aquatic races fit into its Races of the Waves chapter. All its savage races fit into its Races of Savagery chapter. All its fuzzy races fit into its Races of Fuzziness chapter. All its Horseshoecrabfolk fit into its Races of the Awesome Beaches chapter.
Just like Adventurer's Vault doesn't need to thematically fit all its items together, a racial supplement would be all inclusive by virtue of being a Big Book of This Thing Which Needs Support. And since it would include feat support and paragon paths, it works as a stand alone product, as well as the possibility of BBoR 2 including even more critters.
You know what, people would buy that. There's enough against the grain DM's, those looking for ideas outside the human, elf, dwarf conundrum, or people just wanting to play the Kobold as they did in previous editions that I'm sure it'd sell well. Hell, it's a Races book, with enough feats, paths, and even nifty racial weaponry, people would sure as heck buy it. I would. It'd be the first real books I buy for the system, as all my friends have the rest...
But you don't have mine.
I prefer books that have a central theme – a story to them, rather than a crapton of options that don't tie together nicely.
Erm, so a book of races doesn't have a central theme? Instead of doing races from all over, one could do one for Forgotten Realms, one for Eberron and one for Dark Sun, or perhaps a Points of Light campaign. The races would be thematically relevant as well as having a crapton of options.
Gnolls were published in Dragon and shouldn't expect to get anything outside of Dragon. But they are due for something.
No, just no. Being in Dragon doesn't mean anything. If the FRPG and EPG races can get support in other books, so should Dragon races. Except for the exclusive ones of course, of which there is only one, and it's not the Gnoll.
Gnolls were published in Dragon and shouldn't expect to get anything outside of Dragon. But they are due for something.
No, just no. Being in Dragon doesn't mean anything. If the FRPG and EPG races can get support in other books, so should Dragon races. Except for the exclusive ones of course, of which there is only one, and it's not the Gnoll.
I'm just saying; Don't expect them to show up in a book until they show up in a book.
Shadar Kai have so far only been published in the Dragon Annual and they've only been mentioned again in Dragon.
None of which really affects my point.
They shouldn't publish races that they plan on abandoning afterwards. They even went so far as to say they wouldn't.
They shouldn't publish races that they plan on abandoning afterwards. They even went so far as to say they wouldn't.
Which is better, to exist in one burst of glory, or to never exist in the first place?
It is all well and good to say "everything should have full support"....but let's talk stats. 1 PHB per year. 1 campaign setting per year. 4 race slots in each, using the most recent numbers.
That's eight races a year. Eight.
Now, which eight? Because some people want Centaurs, others want Kobolds, others want Goblins/Blues/Bugbears/Hobgoblins, some want Lupin and Catfolk, some want Sahuagin or Darfellan, some want Hadozee, some want Aven, some want Lizardfolk, some want Rakshasa, some want Pixies, some want Naga, some want Satyr, some want Myconids, some want Kenku, some want Dark Ones, some want Vanara, some want Nezumi, some want Cephalid, some want Dromite, some want Tibbit, some want Aranea, some want Dryads, some want Modron, some want Harpies, some want Yuan-ti, some want Medusa, some want Mindflayers, some want Tengu, some want Hengeyokai, some want Djinn, some want Azer, some want Banshrae, some want Ghouls or Ghasts, some want Drider, some want Gargoyles, some want Duergar, some want Neogi, some want Kuo-Toa, some want Lumi, some want Maenads, some want Troglodytes, some want Skulk, some want Synad, some want Elan, some want Imaskari, some want Mongrelfolk, and some want completely new races that we have never seen before. All that can be agreed upon is that everyone wants Horseshoecrabfolk (and if you don't, shame! Shame, I say!).
There isn't enough room.
Is it better to get support in later books, like the Power series? Yes. But the simply fact is that with only eight races, some new, some old, we don't have enough room to fit all the possible concepts that could use a mechanical block and a touch of feat support. And sure, another eight will be there next year. Along with twenty new ideas for possible races that could use some time in print.
Take any single one of these things, and ask yourself; is it better for a race like the Centaur to get a single balanced block and a handful of feats, then be abandoned, or is it better if it never exists at all?
Because at least the former allows people who want to play that race to play it. The latter helps no one.
But what I do not want is future Players' Handbooks, Power Books and Dragon Magazines being filled with feats for Lupins (which as far as I ever knew were the purple flowers my mother used to admire so much by the roadside) and Centaurs. Keep all the extra races in the extra race books: self-contained so that people who like those races need not buy other stuff for just one or two feats, and self-contained so that my Arcane Power 3 is not cluttered with feats for Mongrelman Sorcerers.
some want Harpies
I'd quite like to see a PC version of the harpy, since a pirate kingqueendom ruled by (mostly non-evil) harpies is a significant world power in my homebrew campaign setting. I have no idea how they could make flight work without unbalancing things, though. PCs are not supposed to have access to at-will flight until mid-paragon tier, but a harpy PC who can't fly for the first half of her career would be pretty silly. Even a once-per-encounter 'wing-assisted-mega-jump' power wouldn't really feel right to me, especially if the harpy needed to use a racial PP to get true flight later on.
I cast my vote for a Big Book of Exotic Races. With more than one paragon path for each and enough feats and items to support the new races immediately out of the book. (Then Big Book 2 and 3 if need be.)
But what I do not want is future Players' Handbooks, Power Books and Dragon Magazines being filled with feats for Lupins (which as far as I ever knew were the purple flowers my mother used to admire so much by the roadside) and Centaurs. Keep all the extra races in the extra race books: self-contained so that people who like those races need not buy other stuff for just one or two feats, and self-contained so that my Arcane Power 3 is not cluttered with feats for Mongrelman Sorcerers.
Not cluttered, but the occassional feat here and there shouldn't hurt, but you can't just take every single publication other than the big racial book and say "Absolutly NO feats if they are in book X." Esspecially the dragon, which should have the greatest freedom.
In future PHBs, yes. There shouldn't be really any racial feats in there for races that are not in the book. (Unless its one of those race/class hybrid sort of feats, but even then its silly. Not silly though would be like a feat for living contstucts if there was one in the book.)
Power books though, It shouldn't just be all the exotic races, but it shouldn't compleatly exempt them either. Now they might not show up for a while though in these books, or are secretly sneeked in like how i found a new racial/class feat for changeling fighters. But certianly it shouldn't have too many in there.
Dragon however, this is were support for any class, race extra should be in. If someone decides he wants to make a list of feats for Horseshoe crab folk, he should be able to.
If enough people want to buy it, I do not see a reason for them not to produce it.
Also, I don't believe we have an abysal bloodied race yet. (bladelings maybe?) We have infernal linked, a few fey linked, a shadow linked, and a celestial linked, but as of yet, no abbysals.
I would not expect to a Far Realm blooded, but who knows. As I was discussing with a friend last night, if they are bringing the Shadow and Elemental to the pc's in phb 4, maybe they are using the Far Realm as something everyone in the DnD universe can consider a common enemy.
If they did a big book of races late in the game, I think it may go over well. Wait till all the PHB's are out, the majority of the Powers books, so that way, any feat support required will show up in that book, and maybe in future dragon articles.
If enough people want to buy it, I do not see a reason for them not to produce it.
Also, I don't believe we have an abysal bloodied race yet. (bladelings maybe?) We have infernal linked, a few fey linked, a shadow linked, and a celestial linked, but as of yet, no abbysals.
I would not expect to a Far Realm blooded, but who knows. As I was discussing with a friend last night, if they are bringing the Shadow and Elemental to the pc's in phb 4, maybe they are using the Far Realm as something everyone in the DnD universe can consider a common enemy.
Impossible. When they would be done with PHBs it would be because we are moving to the next edition.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
We are now in an argument that a minotaur couldn't ever possibly write a bull because WotC printed that they have an adverage weight of X-Y.. rather than getting to the nitty gritty of actually number crunching that requires hard things like feats, powers and class features and not things that can be explained away with fluff.
Gnolls were published in Dragon and shouldn't expect to get anything outside of Dragon. But they are due for something.
No, just no. Being in Dragon doesn't mean anything. If the FRPG and EPG races can get support in other books, so should Dragon races. Except for the exclusive ones of course, of which there is only one, and it's not the Gnoll.
I have mentioned this once before, but Dragon is considered material that is extra, something to enhance the game. The Gnoll is likely to stay within the DDi site, instead of being in a book like PHB4 or setting campaign.
His only point is that the further support for that race should be from Dragon, since that is where the Gnoll has been thus far. It makes no sense to have support for this race outside of Dragon since most casual players and few of the regular player will have the original entry laying around.
When Martial Power 1 came out, it didn't have support for, say, Eberron races, so they had to cram them into Martial Power 2. When Psionic power comes out, it won't have support for the races of the next handbook, so they will be backlogged.
Meanwhile, it would be quite easy to print a racial book with plenty of standalone feats, but "further support" translates directly to "class combo feats in later books".
If this were Dragon material, it would be insanely easy; have a Race/Class Combo article that debuts a few months after every handbook, and could address all the different races. Also makes errata easier in the case of any imbalance.
Personally, I don't buy the "we can't have them, because they won't have enough shiny things later" argument. If we get them in the first place and give them a pile of shiny things, we don't further support when an Elemental class comes out, unless it is really, really appropriate, in which case Dragon could cover it easily (because anyone with DDI would have the Big Book of Races's ruleset, so there is no conflict of interest).
See, this is why having Racial feats in the Power books is a bad idea.
I disagree. I think that having race-class or race-power-source feats are a very flavorful mechanic. However, I will agree that Martial Power probably went overboard with the concept, creating so many that it would be impossible for later races to catch up (average 5 heroic race-class feats, 2 paragon race-class feats, and 1 epic race-power-source feat per race). If Martial Power had followed the pattern in Primal Power (average 1 race-power-source feat pre race) or even in Arane Power or Divine Power (average 2 race-class feats and 1 race-power-source feat), then I think that bringing newer races up to par with future X Power installments would be a very simple task.
Also, I don't believe we have an abysal bloodied race yet. (bladelings maybe?) We have infernal linked, a few fey linked, a shadow linked, and a celestial linked, but as of yet, no abbysals.
Well there are Abyssal Genasi. They should count as an Abyss connected sub race.
I have mentioned this once before, but Dragon is considered material that is extra, something to enhance the game. The Gnoll is likely to stay within the DDi site, instead of being in a book like PHB4 or setting campaign.
His only point is that the further support for that race should be from Dragon, since that is where the Gnoll has been thus far. It makes no sense to have support for this race outside of Dragon since most casual players and few of the regular player will have the original entry laying around.
And as everyone has told you before, you're flat out wrong. Dragon is only an extra as much as the EPG or FRPG are. And guess what? Races from those books get feat support in otehr books. Looks like you just got proven wrong. Again.
Impossible. When they would be done with PHBs it would be because we are moving to the next edition.
I wouldn't be too sure of that. I don't see them going beyond 5phbs (could be wrong...still I don't see it) and I don't see them going to 5th edition after 4 years.
I have mentioned this once before, but Dragon is considered material that is extra, something to enhance the game. The Gnoll is likely to stay within the DDi site, instead of being in a book like PHB4 or setting campaign.
His only point is that the further support for that race should be from Dragon, since that is where the Gnoll has been thus far. It makes no sense to have support for this race outside of Dragon since most casual players and few of the regular player will have the original entry laying around.
And as everyone has told you before, you're flat out wrong. Dragon is only an extra as much as the EPG or FRPG are. And guess what? Races from those books get feat support in otehr books. Looks like you just got proven wrong. Again.
First... it is spelled "other."
The setting books (at least the Player Guides, another reason they sell more than the Campaign Settings) have always been advertised to be playable in more than the setting they are for. "Playable in any campaign."
Dragon mags support Dragon mag material along with a bit of support for the books (though I don't count previews in this). It also is serving as an advertisment for the upcoming products through previews, inside talk (which can be cool), and a bit of horn blowing on the possibilities and excitment on the next big thing.
The Gnoll may well get into one of the Dragon Annuals, or into a book (likely a very unusual setting) sometime in the future. Meanwhile, the support (or lack thereof) is within the electric byways of the Dragon DDi.
At any rate, keep up the good work. No one would ever know you have no idea what you're talking about if you didn't prove it in every single post. I mean seriously, you just agreed with me, then turned around and tried to say that by agreeing with me I'm wrong. Since, you know, what you just said about the player's Guides has been repeatedly said by WotC themselves to be the exact same case for Dragon.
But hey, if screaming as loud as you can just so you can convince yourself works for you, whatever.
Or are you say that this extra material can be use in any campaign? That is the main reason for the mag's existance, for extra material to use on top of the products bought in the store.
The main point, here, is that the Gnoll hasn't gotten any support (as laminated by the poster above) from any source, including Dragon. I merely am saying that any support for the Gnoll would be in Dragon, since it has the write up.
And I mean extra in teh same way that the EPG and FRPG are extra. They are all extra. Everything outside of the PHB1 is extra. And they all count the same.
I know, we are going in circles here. You see something in DDi, and use it as a great source for unusual or wanted material. It was where the Illusions for the Wizard was put before it was used in... was it Arcane Power? I never got the mag when it was on the newstand, but now it is a part of the overprice DDi that has the Character Generator (Builder) that some confuse with a Citizens' Band Radio.
Perhaps you can tell me where the support for the Gnoll is. Is it in a book?
Not everyone has access to DDi.
.... Not everyone has access to the EPG, FRPG, the Power Books, PHB2, PHB3, need I go on?
Material from there is treated differently, if only slightly, than something within the physical pages of a printed product.
No.
You may see a reference to some DDi material (like mentioning races in a setting book) but support will be for what is in the store, not on a web page.
No.
Perhaps you can tell me where the support for the Gnoll is. Is it in a book?
*sigh* No. I never said it was. I said there is no reason it can't be. Learn to read.
The artical is actually a free artical.
Illumians would be awesome. They were a very flavorful race, and I'd like to see them again.
I wanted to see the Elan, but the Shardmind is mechanically almost an identical beast to what the Elan would be (rename "Living Construct" as "Psionically Sustained;" replace "Immortal Origin" with "Aberrant Taint"...Elan count as both natural and aberrant in origin; and replace their racial power with "Psionically Gifted" the ability to choose any 1st level augmentable at-will (probably usable once per encounter, haven't looked at the balance yet, and voila, you have an Elan).
I also like the addition of monster races, and half-dragon rules that aren't just refluffed dragonborn would be great. (I've already built custom monsters that are simply dragons masquerading as humanoids.)
I'm getting my thri-kreen in Dark Sun, so dromites would be awesome. And duergar would be cool too.
Oh, and making it official and not just a house-rule in my game that half-elves may choose elves, eladrin, or drow to be the second half of their dual heritage feature. And support for some of the races.
I always liked the Vanara from Oriental Adventures or Hadozee from Stormwrack (They are quite similar.)
I want some sort of Monkey People, too! I mean people with prehensile tails, furry faces, and a tendency to climb things and be silly!
golblinoids (handled a la shifters or genasi)
kobolds
dark ones
and with 3 small races (goblins, kobolds and darkones), wotc could use phb4 as an opportunity to "fix" (enhance options for) small races.
bugbears could be handled similarly to minotaurs and goliaths, with a splash of half-orc (dex trait) for distinction.
reserve orcs for phb5 (elemental power source).
Goblin & Hobgoblin
Dark Ones
Hadozee
For a more unusual race, how about the Nerra (from the Fiend Folio).
I think Dromites will be in the PHB5 as an elemental race
Putting my two cents in again...
Dromite ... PTC, I don't think they would change the Dromite into an Elemental race, keeping it a Psionic race instead, for the couple of Psi classes that would be in PHB4. (Still don't understand why it wasn't in the PHB3)
Lupin
Kenku
Tibbit ... I will say it again, it might be nice to be able to turn into a house cat to sneak around or listen in on conversations. Perhaps we can have more than one small race to make up for the omission in the PHB3.
Catfolk ... I think I would change the name to something that is more than a moniker (Spider-Man, Wolf-thing) I had a race in 3.5 based on the house cat called the Calicro.
I am thinking there will be a new race that is shadow based that might be like a dark changling.
I will simply just say that my belief is a valid one concerning DDi.
If you consider a belief that is contradicted by every single source available to be valid, then sure.
If on the other hand, you mean that WOTC intends DDI to be outside the core rules and game, then you are mistaken.
One thing I think they could do is have the Errata for the Annual be referrenced to the pages of the Annaul rather than meaningless Dragon numbers and pages. I still don't know if anything was Errata'd in the Annual this last time out, only that it "might be."
Any comments about the races I mentioned?
As far as Monster Manual races that already have player character statistics, I would not mind seeing expanded versions of Kobolds, Goblinoids or Kenku.
As far as Monster Manual races that have not been given player character characteristics, I would like to see Lizard Folk.
As far as a player character race related to a power source, I would not mind seeing something related to shadow like the Dark-one. Although they blow up when they are killed! Although not all these races may be related directly to shadow, what about shades, skulks or keepers? Shadar-kai might be the 4e version of Shades. Keepers might be considered an extraplanar race.
As far as a race from a previous edition, I would definetely like to see an anthropomorphic race like Venara, Hadozee, Catfolk or Lupins. I am not sure if I would like to see them as separate races or as different builds for the shifter. I could also see a new half-beast/animal type race with varying statistics dependent upon the animal (rabbit, cat, dog, monkey, badger, etc. etc)
As far as something totally new, I would not mind seeing something non-humanoid. Maybe something like a spirit with insubstantial properties that could be planar, elemental, shadow or even undead.
I must admit I also like Dromites, Spriggans, Blues and Bariaurs (are bariaurs medium sized?)
I would also like to see another construct race. Modron, Inevitable?
I am leaving out large and flying races because they may not be presently viable.
I am also leaving out environment themed races (aquatic, frost etc.) as I think they might be saved for future environment books.
From 3.5:
Dromites (I never got to play one in 3.5, so I definitely need a 4e version to scratch that itch)
Illumians (I thought these guys were pretty cool in 3.5, plus I think they could finally be our INT/CON race)
Synads/Elans (I'm not sure I need both. I like the concepts of both, but they're both aberrant, and they're also pretty close to Illumians visually)
MM races:
Kobolds (I've used the MM option before, but it'd be sweet to see them with PC write-ups)
Goblinoids (though, I think I'd prefer this in a Dragon article about playing Goblinoids in Eberron)
Lizardfolk (there's not even a racial option yet in the MMs, that should be rectified)
In general, PH3 has whetted my appetite for more exotic races. So I'd like more in PH4.
Not outside the rules (like the previous mag had been at times) but extra material for those that want more than the regular books. The DM needs to approve the use of things within, but other than the Assassin and the dead class, I wouldn't see a problem.
Just like every single book is extra material, and everry single book requires DM permission. Dragon is not unique in this, now matter how you try to spin it.
And there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Assassin or the Revenant undead race (dead class? seriously?) that would make them any more of a problem than the Bard, Druid, Gnome, or even your precious Dromites.
I have to say again that the Monster Races should stay in the MM or have their write ups in the Dragon DDi.
I would also like to see another construct race. Modron, Inevitable?
Glad that someone else realizes that Modrons should be a PC race, and they're a perfect candidate for an Int/Con race too.
Not outside the rules (like the previous mag had been at times) but extra material for those that want more than the regular books. The DM needs to approve the use of things within, but other than the Assassin and the dead class, I wouldn't see a problem.
Just like every single book is extra material, and everry single book requires DM permission. Dragon is not unique in this, now matter how you try to spin it.
And there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Assassin or the Revenant undead race (dead class? seriously?) that would make them any more of a problem than the Bard, Druid, Gnome, or even your precious Dromites.
I think thaX has a deep rooted bais against the Dragon because of something it did to them in the past. Possibly some kid brought one of those quizocultle (however the hell you spell it) rogue books from some off beat publisher and the result was just horrible.
Not outside the rules (like the previous mag had been at times) but extra material for those that want more than the regular books. The DM needs to approve the use of things within, but other than the Assassin and the dead class, I wouldn't see a problem.
Just like every single book is extra material, and everry single book requires DM permission. Dragon is not unique in this, now matter how you try to spin it.
And there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Assassin or the Revenant undead race (dead class? seriously?) that would make them any more of a problem than the Bard, Druid, Gnome, or even your precious Dromites.
I think thaX has a deep rooted bais against the Dragon because of something it did to them in the past. Possibly some kid brought one of those quizocultle (however the hell you spell it) rogue books from some off beat publisher and the result was just horrible.
I'll have you know, nine out of seventeen Americans will have a negative Quetzalcoatl experience within the next twenty-two years, five months, thirteen days, eleven hours, forty-one minutes, and two seconds.
People need to be more aware of the Quetzalcoatl Crisis that grips the nation.
If the power source for PH4 is Shadow, I'd want something undead-related (and not a reprint of Revenant, at this point). Maybe an "unborn" race - something that was created as a living race, but who (for some reason) were "un-created", and exist only as a mockery of their once-living forms.
I'm reminded of the movie Van Helsing and how Dracula's children were always stillborn (being the children of an undead) and required the help of Frankenstein to grant life. That could be an interesting concept, though it may be more monster-oriented than PC race oriented. A Frankenstein race would be a good option, but it sounds like it's just a refluffed warforged. We'll see though.
How do I say this.... Alternate material, maybe? Stuff to augment the game?
I have to say again that the Monster Races should stay in the MM or have their write ups in the Dragon DDi.
Like the Gnomes, Shifters, Changelings, Drow, and Warforged?
Oh wait ...
As for races I would like to see.. Lizardfolk and Goblinoids. Perhaps instead of more races (especially the mediocre ones that have been presented in PHB3, I like the Gith and Minotaur.. but i really do not like the Shardmind or Wilden - not matter I just won't use them) -
But what about more Bloodline feats, I love those, the Vistani, the Dhampyr (spelling?) and the Eladrin feats where awesome ways of introducing bloodlines.. what about a Dragon-decended Bloodline, Abyssal/Primordial/Fey/Shadow bloodlines, perhaps more Gnome, Elf and Dwarf subraces? They could also introduce more "Half" creatures through bloodline feats..
I would love to see less new races, and a little more space given to making subraces for the existing races.
To tangent from it; if you had a Big Book of Races, then it would be easy to provide future support through magazine articles (Big Batch of Races appendix). And since everyone with DDI and Dragon has access to the crunch of the BBoR, you never have any conflict of interest or material you can't use.
There is only 1 race I would proactively like to see: Duergar.
(I love the Slann, Skinks etc. But that's another tangent)
I'd like to see them have Set Stats (as I strongly dislike Flex stat races unless they are using one entry to represent multiple races). Skills most likely Divine, and Nature, or Arcana and Nature.
Central/South Native American inspired Lizardfolk basically. Throw in some bloated toad humanoid priests and stuff and you are golden.
You know, the Dragon magazine being core point is a very good one.
It's also one that's been beaten into thaX's head repeatedly, yet he still insists on calling it "extra material," that's somehow less worthy or less Core than the player's guides.
You know, the Dragon magazine being core point is a very good one.
It's also one that's been beaten into thaX's head repeatedly, yet he still insists on calling it "extra material," that's somehow less worthy or less Core than the player's guides.
No offense, but doesn't that make arguing with him over it an exercise in futility? I mean, I am in total agreement with you, but I really don't think, no matter how hard you try, you are going to convince thaX to take an adventure outside of Wrongland any time soon.
I guess the biggest problem I have with thaX's argument is that, somehow, material that in the Dragon Magazine Annual is somehow superior to the exact same material that is available from Dragon Magazine. Somehow in the translation into a hardcopy, the material changes from optional to part of the core.
As to the actual subject of the thread, I still would like to see the gnoll in a hardcover (I would be okay if it waited until Dragon Magazine Annual 2). I know that contradicts what I just got done saying, but there is just something about being able to crack a book open and find something. It doesn't make the online published version less valid, it just makes finding it easier (Of course, the Compendium makes it even easier, but my computer doesn't seem to like to format it properly).
Otherwise, I want to see some Dragonlance races like the Tinker Gnome (that could really be covered by a bloodline for the current gnome though), Draconian, Irda, Kyrie, Thanoi, Ursoi, and Sea Elf (I know, I know, another elf race=bad, but they had really cool attributes). I also want to see Goblins in a book. I actually want to see them more than anything else, really. I have always enjoyed the race.
You know, the Dragon magazine being core point is a very good one.
It's also one that's been beaten into thaX's head repeatedly, yet he still insists on calling it "extra material," that's somehow less worthy or less Core than the player's guides.
Not using it to try to rationally argue, just pointing it out.
It's like a rushing river. The river's going to keep on keepin' on, so all you can do is paddle around it to get to where you need to go.
Eberron sold me on goblin(oid)s as player races, and while I'm homebrewed up a set that I really enjoy, I would really like to see goblin(oid)s get a full supported racial treatment - though honestly, I'd be satisfied if it were just in Dragon (and even better if they showed up in another Drago Annual, with other supporting articles).
- I want Lizard Folk (I wanted them far more than Dragon-blech.)
These races need to become civilization builders and leave behind this "Savage" cliche.
Agreed.
And hobgoblins, being as they are the goblinoid race most easily adapted to non-villainous status. There's always room for another Proud Warrior Race.
And also a vote for ThaX and CelticMutt to agree to just ignore each other for a while, since their apparently inescapable folie à deux is getting rather tiresome.
What I don't want are 'innovative' or new races. I want races that we have seen in prior editions.
I could not possibly disagree with this more unless I actively did not want to see any races from prior editions ever. New things are good. The game can't just keep doing the same stuff over and over again. That's boring, and it gets the game nowhere.
No offense, but doesn't that make arguing with him over it an exercise in futility? I mean, I am in total agreement with you, but I really don't think, no matter how hard you try, you are going to convince thaX to take an adventure outside of Wrongland any time soon.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, or maybe another thread, it's really not about trying to convince thaX anymore. It's about making sure that in the event that some new poster wanders by, they don't get confused by thaX's wrong info.
Though I suppose I am badgering at it at this point.
No offense, but doesn't that make arguing with him over it an exercise in futility? I mean, I am in total agreement with you, but I really don't think, no matter how hard you try, you are going to convince thaX to take an adventure outside of Wrongland any time soon.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, or maybe another thread, it's really not about trying to convince thaX anymore. It's about making sure that in the event that some new poster wanders by, they don't get confused by thaX's wrong info.
Though I suppose I am badgering at it at this point.
That is a good point. I can see how thaX's opinions could lead a new poster to avoid Dragon and Dungeon because they might be given the perception that the material in those magazines isn't as legitimate as the rest of the D&D material. In that case, keep up the good fight.
I don't see why the Goblin wasn't in the Eberron book if it was the catalyst for the popularity for the monster race to become PC. I think that was the best chance for the race to have a Player Character write up.
DDi as a whole is an additional resource for the game. Sure, Dragon is considered "core" as far as playability goes, a vast improvement from the previous incarnation. It also means that useful house rule articles (like 100 results for your WoW) are a thing of the past, a travesty in my opinion. I am using the Character Generator and the monster thingy that is the only thing in the adventure kit. I could just take the time and use pen and paper instead, or hand input the info into Hero Lab.
The Mags, though, are there for mostly the DM to introduce to others, or for the occasional player that ask the DM if he can use some of the stuff from there. I do think some of the feats and powers in the earlier part of the mag have been a bit overpowered, or have since become obsolete with the newer material in the book supersceding it.
Sure, Dragon is considered core. The material works well with the rest of the game, it has a couple of nifty exclusives and there might be something worth printing every once and a while. It just isn't the same as cracking open the book. Never has been.
I'd just like to put in a vote for playable incunabula. Incunabula are, IMO, the coolest racial concept WotC have come up with so far.
Um, what are incunabula, and where/when were they introduced?
What I don't want are 'innovative' or new races. I want races that we have seen in prior editions.
I could not possibly disagree with this more unless I actively did not want to see any races from prior editions ever. New things are good. The game can't just keep doing the same stuff over and over again. That's boring, and it gets the game nowhere.
New things aren't necessarily good.
I mean look at twilight. Its a new take on vampires.. so do you want WotC to put in sparkly vampires into the game just because its new and innovative?
Oddly, when they do try something a little new (and yet classic) you yell at them for being terrible game designers and pigenholing races.
New things aren't necessarily good.
And neither are thing have already been done ad nauseum necessarily good. My point, which I thought that I had made sufficiently clear, was that trying new things is a good thing. Doing the same thing over and over again every edition only serves to keep great new ideas out, keep bad old ideas in, and deny any progress to the game.
I mean look at twilight. Its a new take on vampires.. so do you want WotC to put in sparkly vampires into the game just because its new and innovative?
It's not bad that something new was tried with vampires. It's just bad that it sucked. There's a difference.
Oddly, when they do try something a little new (and yet classic) you yell at them for being terrible game designers and pigenholing races.
I do no such thing. Whether a race is new or old has nothing to do with whether it was pigeonholed or otherwise badly designed.
though i suspect shadow will come first, in which case here come shadar kai
if elemental.... don't know... maybe some sort of janni race... then again we already have genasi
incarnum!? i forget what races if any were in that book =p
HORSESHOE CRABFOLK!
New things aren't necessarily good.
I mean look at twilight. Its a new take on vampires.. so do you want WotC to put in sparkly vampires into the game just because its new and innovative?
Oddly, when they do try something a little new (and yet classic) you yell at them for being terrible game designers and pigenholing races.
And old things aren't necessarily good either. Just look at all of the Stupid and idiotic monsters from previous editions that never made the cut to the next one, let alone this one.
Twilight is not a new take on vampires. Twilight is a butchery of every vampire myth out there, twisted and distored to fit a Mormon Soccermom's idea of a sex life.
(I'm not talking Hollywood vamps that go Poof in sunlight either) What makes Twilight so bad has nothing to do however with the vampires themselves, and everything to do with the trash eater of an author.
I want more new content before I want to see classic content revisited. Each edition is meant to break new ground. Sure there are some ubiquitous staples, (which we pretty much have filled out already) that get converted. But all in all? I'd rather have new content.
Give me a reason to buy new books.
kobolds, phb4 is done :O
though i suspect shadow will come first, in which case here come shadar kai
if elemental.... don't know... maybe some sort of janni race... then again we already have genasi
incarnum!? i forget what races if any were in that book =p
HORSESHOE CRABFOLK!
Incarnum introduced the skarn, which were the breed-by-a-higher-power-to-be-a-superwarrior race (and had spines they could fight with), the rilkan, which were like half-elves with a racial memory that strenghtened their magic, dusklings, which were fey touched by incarnum that could invest essentia for a speed boost (and maybe a few other things - I don't recall), and azurins, which were humans touched by the power of incarnum while still in the womb.
Rilkans seem like they'd be redundant with half-elves.
Skarn are an awesome idea, althought to separate them from dragonborn (fluff-wise), we'd need to play up the racial weapon and the magical eugenics experiement nature.
Dusklings might be tricky. They're a lot like elves native to the Feywild (but specifically elves, not eladrin). Can we make them more unique?
Azurins are another human subspecies. I've seen complaints about many of those. But I'm fine with the idea. And we currently don't have a race like that. Tiefling, aasimar, etc. - they've been refluffed so they're not born of a human and something else/magical accident. I really want that brought back. Mind you, I'd rather a daelkyr halfblood filled that gap, but I want some race to do that.
- +1 to all skills, instead of +2 to 2. This is very different from the typical race, but it's worth trying out. Besides, the bard, a couple of feats, and a pp can all give a bonus to all untrained. I think it could prove balanced.
- able to roll twice for history checks and for insight checks against other rilkan. If your racial memory includes all past rilkan, you should know history. And if it includes all current rilkan, it's easier to see through their lies. Not quite mind reading, but it's an interesting element and gives rilkan an existence outside of an incarnum book. It even lends rilkan a new direction, a favoring toward psionic classes. And from what I recall of their fluff, the style of battleminds would appeal to them (even if the class might be subpar).
- a prescience racial power. I'm not sure of the mechanics yet, but the fluff astounds me. Imagine: their racial memory includes every rilkan that hasn't been born yet. In the midst of battle, they have a flash of memory - centuries from now, a rilkan in school being taught about their own exploits and what they did at this exact moment. Or, for less historic moments, being a future student being taught about a technique they invented here and now. I'd call it Flash of Inspiration. I mean, I want to play a rilkan right now just for that fluff. And it really sets rilkan adventurers apart - a more average rilkan won't see their racial memory showing them their own historic achievements. It also makes me want to play a rilkan assassin. A vigilante who's honed his or her own racial memory to learn who becomes history's greatest villians and then kills them before it happens. So like the terminator, but with prescience instead of time travel. I love it.
- They were good at teamwork and got like a bonus to flanking and aid another. That's easy enough to port over.
- Ability scores: definitely +2 Cha. Old fluff suggests bard as one of their favored classes. I seem to recall them getting a bonus to Dex and a penalty to Str (making them opposite the skarn). But I'm not sure that fits the direction I'm taking them. If I make it Con, I play up the incarnum tie and the health involved. I also make them great battleminds, decent warlocks for any pact, and I'm not sure what else. If I make it Wis, I play up prescience and make them amazing prescient bards. But then I've overemphasized the future aspect as opposed to past and present. If I make it Dex, they fit chaos sorcerer and rogue better than bard, and I don't see a huge fluff reason for Dex. Intelligence seems to really well fit the huge knowledge base. They then become good bards, warlocks, psions, illusionist wizards, etc. I think Cha/Int is the best fit.
Since I'm saying so much on rilkans, I want to consider skarn now.
- They were given +Str -Dex in the past. Str seems a good fit for a warrior race. If I make it Str/Con, they look a lot like goliaths to me. Especially since +1 Will and an encounter power that provides damage resistance also fit that bred-for-war aspect. So a refluffed goliath may actually fit skarn really well.
- Alternatively, I make them +Str + Wis. Skarn monks would best capitalize off the spines, which I don't think other warriors would favor over weapons anyway. And Str/Wis partly matches both monk builds. Str/Dex would favor the monk build that seems to match them more, but it's jarring to go from Dex penalty to Dex bonus.
- As another thought, make it +Con, + any other. Now that selectable ability bonuses is becoming the norm, this could fit pretty well, with the master race having created lines for different tasks, but toughness was always a factor bred in. (However, the same argument could be applied to warforged). I think I'll pass on this one.
- Thinking about it more, the proud warrior race really overlaps too much with dragonborn. I may change the fluff a little. Or play up more the unending quest to continue seeking perfection. So yeah, I'm going to favor the monk class. +Str +Dex/Wis
- I'm struck by the idea of making a basic attack when bloodied or when using second wind, but I think that's better left for a paragon path. But I could see there being a spine riposte feature, letting you deal, say Str mod damage to an enemy that bloodies you. But the fluff suggests melee range, which shoehorns. It's a pretty minor feature, unless I expanded it into the racial power. But then it's like a more limited version of the firesoul genasi's power.
- I could make the spines a "viciousness" factor and have them deal +2 damage on a critial hit.
- Battle Ready: When you roll initiative, you gain 5 temporary hit points. Increase to 10 at 11th level and 15 at 21st level. I'd say this is another way to play up the warrior zeal, and it's a slightly new way. It makes them kind of opposite half-orcs, who become tougher when things get rough, while skarn start off tough. It also provides some grounds for their search for perfection. They feel their endurance isn't as great as it should be.
- Skills: +2 Athletics/Endurance, +2 Intimidate. I'm not sure which of the first, but anything covered with spines ought to be intimidating. Probably Endurance for the other, though. I'm afb, but I think half-orcs get athletics, and I don't want redundancy. Which I may have, since Str/Dex mathces half-orcs.
Conclusion: I'm stumped on skarn. I'll come back to them later.
I forgot. I'd love to have Horseshoecrabfolk in PH4.
I mentioned them a few pages back
But I hadn't mentioned them on my wish-list. I mention my wish for them now.
So.
How would one fluff the Horseshoecrabfolk?
With their connection to ancient life and ancestry, I really like the notion of Horseshoecrabfolk as keepers of forgotten lore. Patient, stoic, and methodical, they delve into the mysteries of the world, its past, present, and future. Their magnificent vision (horseshoe crabs have nine eyes in total, two large ones, five small, and two on the underside of the carapace) allows them to observe the turning of the world around them for later transcription, painstakingly inscribing history's secrets onto large monoliths (inspired by the Hedron Crab) of resilient stone to stand the tests of time. Horseshoecrabfolk take a long time to complete any task (for example, they have no jaws, therefore they must grind food with their forelimbs before consumption), but they do so with diligent care and quiet dignity. Inclinded toward the more mystical professions rather than physical might, Horseshoecrabfolk are perhaps most famous as keepers of vestiges, tapping into their connections to the past for power.
And of course, they need an origin. For example: Once, in ages past, Horseshoecrabfolk lived in harmony with two other ancient species, the Ammonitefolk and the Trilobitefolk. Their empire was not vast, stretching only across a few leagues of beach and cove and bay, but it was serene, a union based on a caste system, with ammonite leaders and clerics, trilobite workers and guardians, and horseshoecrab scholars and teachers.
Yet none of this survives, even in song or script. Not long ago by their standards, barely half an era, every single Horseshoecrabfolk across the world awoke at the same instant amidst the shattered fragments of their nation with a gaping hole in their memory of the past year and a day. No recollection, no account, no history records what cataclysm decimated their home or caused their brethren's complete extinction, despite the anguished search of scholars and labored quests of mystics. Now the loss has turned to a quiet sorrow as the horseshoecrabfolk comb the beaches of the world for relics of the lost and signs of the past. Even if they can never find what horror stole their homeland, they can preserve its memory against the weathering of the ages, an enduring memento from the echoes of the past.
I speak from a thunderous ignorance of the roots of the "horseshoecrabfolk" and deliberate ignorance of how tongue-in-cheek this demand is
Perhaps, with a little seriousness, this offbeat concept will see the light of day in the next decade.Xiphosure
Survivors of an obscure oceanic disaster, searching for truth
Abilities: +2 Con, +2 Int
Size: Medium
Speed: 6, swim 6. A xiphosure does not need to make Athletics checks to swim at this speed (PHB 183)
Vision: Low-light
Languages: Common, choice of one other
Skills: +2 Acrobatics, +2 History [A riff on the surprising agility of real-life horseshoe crabs]
Amphibious: You have the aquatic keyword and can breathe water and air with equal ease.
Circumspect: Creatures with combat advantage against you gain a +1, rather than +2, bonus to attack rolls against you.
Mystic Lorekeeper: When you make an Arcana check, roll twice and use either result.
Righting Tail: Whenever you are pushed, pulled, or slid, you can choose to move one square less than the effect would otherwise require, to a minimum of 0. When you are knocked prone, you receive an immediate saving throw to remain standing.
Hunker Down
In a pinch, you lower your body and let your massive armor plates do the talking.
At-Will.
Minor Action. Personal.
Effect: You gain a +4 power bonus to AC and Reflex. This effect ends if you attack or use an action other than a minor or free action.
As for what races I want to see in PHB4:
Aarakocra
Daelkyr Half-Breed
Elan
And more envelope-pushing fare like the shardmind.
Righting Tail is just a ripoff of that one Drawf racial feature. I'd much rather they get something original. Also, your racial power, Hunker Down, has a couple of issues, the most significant of which being that it has no duration and the second of which being that it's totally overpowered as an at-will power.
I meant this more as a proof-of-concept, but you're certainly correct, now that I've had a bit to think about what I've created.
If there's another way to handle exceptional stability, I'd be curious. Perhaps this:
Righting Tail: When you are knocked prone, you receive an immediate saving throw to remain standing. Even if you fall, you can stand as a minor action.
As for the power, changing it to encounter with a "sustain minor" option removes most of the difficulties, I think, and lowering the bonus to +2 removes the rest. Much as I like racial at-will powers, this one is safer this way.
I'd like to see a race that's trying to get out of savagery, like a specific branch of Lizardfolk for exemple who see that being hunted down as monster isn't really good for their future. A race thati s taking their first step into civilisation essentially.
A race thati s taking their first step into civilisation essentially.
The Wilden.
A race that is taking their first step into civilisation essentially.
The Wilden.
Wilden are a new race, they have no history at all, its not quite the same thing I was getting at.
I mean a race that was 'the encroaching darkness' and now decided it wants to be a 'point of light'. A xenophobic race trying the whole cosmopolitan thing that seems to benefit the humans, elves, dwarves, halflings etc so much.
Wilden are a new race, they have no history at all, its not quite the same thing I was getting at.
I mean a race that was 'the encroaching darkness' and now decided it wants to be a 'point of light'. A xenophobic race trying the whole cosmopolitan thing that seems to benefit the humans, elves, dwarves, halflings etc so much.
Ah, ok. I'd go with Bullywugs myself. Just because.
Wilden are a new race, they have no history at all, its not quite the same thing I was getting at.
I mean a race that was 'the encroaching darkness' and now decided it wants to be a 'point of light'. A xenophobic race trying the whole cosmopolitan thing that seems to benefit the humans, elves, dwarves, halflings etc so much.
Ah, ok. I'd go with Bullywugs myself. Just because.
But nobody likes Bullywugs!
Wilden are a new race, they have no history at all, its not quite the same thing I was getting at.
I mean a race that was 'the encroaching darkness' and now decided it wants to be a 'point of light'. A xenophobic race trying the whole cosmopolitan thing that seems to benefit the humans, elves, dwarves, halflings etc so much.
Ah, ok. I'd go with Bullywugs myself. Just because.
But nobody likes Bullywugs!
Nobody suspects the bullywugs!
naegunfael.proboards.com/index.cgi?board... -Lizardfolk I made.
Especially when you throw in the Slann.
LOL! I get a mental image of three bullywugs in old clerical robes spinning around and saying in a Monty Python-esque croak "NOBODY suspects the Spanish Inquisition, er the Bullywugs!"
"The best darn door opener there is!" (Quote, Roger E. Moore, TSR game designer, Dragon Magazine #73, May 1983, "The Whole Half-Ogre")
That said, S. American Lizardfolk is an awesome idea.
If Bullywugs didn't have that aura, I'd love them too. I always felt that main reason they're "bad" is because they have this fear that everyone's out to kill them – I almost feel sorry for them.
Since I doubt they'll put Elemental in PH4, I just clicked on that, and think we won't get Horshoecrabfolk until PH5. Boo hoo. But they'd make an EXCELLENT tie into Elemental.
I'd love to see Gnolls and Kobolds myself. Just because I think both of them are hella cool.
despite they are both dex/con. But then again if they get the phb3 treatment of flexible stats (basically) we could see gnoll being Con + Dex/Str and kobold being Dex + Con/Cha =)
so yes there is now room for both =O
Hobgoblins and Goblins I can see quite well but Bugbear just seem redundant by now. Its not like they'll keep Oversized.
I just hope that they drop the elemental power source. I have not heard one good idea for a new class that would make me want to play it and unless wizards comes up with something great that maybe the first corebook I pass on. The shadow source has promise but after that it looks really thin.
Isn't that like... the FOURTH time you made the exact same post?
Isn't that like... the FOURTH time you made the exact same post?
It probably is. And he doesn't listen when people tell him why he's wrong.
I -don't- want them to ever release Half-Ogres. No point at all. Refluff a Half-Orc or a Goliath or a Mul, and you're good.
That said, S. American Lizardfolk is an awesome idea.
If Bullywugs didn't have that aura, I'd love them too. I always felt that main reason they're "bad" is because they have this fear that everyone's out to kill them – I almost feel sorry for them.
Since I doubt they'll put Elemental in PH4, I just clicked on that, and think we won't get Horshoecrabfolk until PH5. Boo hoo. But they'd make an EXCELLENT tie into Elemental.
Very nice and polite of you too inform me that what I want is BADWRONGFUN.
(And re-fluffing a half-orc, Goliath or a Mul IS NOT "good". Unless you also want WotC to drop Gnomes and Eladrin, and tell their players to reflavor vanilla Elves.)
That said, Lizardfolk, crab-things, and bullywugs are useless except in aquatic/swamp-based campaigns. Hardly the kind of terrain most adventures take place in.
I -don't- want them to ever release Half-Ogres. No point at all. Refluff a Half-Orc or a Goliath or a Mul, and you're good.
That said, S. American Lizardfolk is an awesome idea.
If Bullywugs didn't have that aura, I'd love them too. I always felt that main reason they're "bad" is because they have this fear that everyone's out to kill them – I almost feel sorry for them.
Since I doubt they'll put Elemental in PH4, I just clicked on that, and think we won't get Horshoecrabfolk until PH5. Boo hoo. But they'd make an EXCELLENT tie into Elemental.
Very nice and polite of you too inform me that what I want is BADWRONGFUN.
(And re-fluffing a half-orc, Goliath or a Mul IS NOT "good". Unless you also want WotC to drop Gnomes and Eladrin, and tell their players to reflavor vanilla Elves.)
That said, Lizardfolk, crab-things, and bullywugs are useless except in aquatic/swamp-based campaigns. Hardly the kind of terrain most adventures take place in.
There's a couple big differences between saying "Refluff an Elf into an Eladrin" or "Refluff an Elf into a Gnome" and "Refluff a Goliath, Half-Orc, or Mul into a Half-Ogre." The first is that you're not relying on one racial mechanic for the Half-Ogre – you have your pick of 3 big strong guys. The second is that unlike Eladrin or Gnome, Half-Ogre doesn't bring anything new and interesting to the game. It's another Big Strong Brute. We already have Goliaths, Muls, Half-Orcs, Minotaurs… we have too many of these races, and not enough of other concepts.
The biggest problem here is that if you give space for a Half-Ogre, you're taking away space from another race that could fill a niche not already filled. So yeah, I'm saying that if you want a whole new Half-Ogre race, you're in the wrong mindset. But wrong fun? Not at all. I'm just saying that you can make your race easily by refluffing another. Other concepts, like Horseshoecrabfolk cannot be. Right now, with core rules, you can easily play a Half-Ogre. Not so much with our living fossil friend here.
Apr 10, 2010 -- 10:17AM, Marandahir wrote: I -don't- want them to ever release Half-Ogres.
(bolding and emphasis mine)
Whether you intended it that way or not, you were being a bit of a jerk.
The titleof the thread is "PHB4 Races-What would you like to see?", not "What PHB4 Races would Maramdahir and Marandahir alone like to see?"
I am just as much entitled to my opinions and campaign wants-and-needs as you or anyone else playing the 4th edition of D&D.
That said, Lizardfolk, crab-things, and bullywugs are useless except in aquatic/swamp-based campaigns. Hardly the kind of terrain most adventures take place in.
What in the world makes you say that? They have legs. That's as ridiculous as saying elves are useless outside of the forest.
(Elves are useless everywhere, of course.)
Not quite, since you started your post off withApr 10, 2010 -- 10:17AM, Marandahir wrote: I -don't- want them to ever release Half-Ogres.
(bolding and emphasis mine)
Whether you intended it that way or not, you were being a bit of a jerk.
The titleof the thread is "PHB4 Races-What would you like to see?", not "What PHB4 Races would Maramdahir and Marandahir alone like to see?"
I am just as much entitled to my opinions and campaign wants-and-needs as you or anyone else playing the 4th edition of D&D.
I'm sorry. It's been a rough two days. I'm not usually jerkish like that. Really, I apologise.
I do have to say, while the topic is "What Races would you like to see?" there is the implication of "discuss what races you want and don't want."
As you can see, when I replied to your reply, I changed my opinion from "I do not EVER want Half-Ogres" to "I'd rather have other races first."
That said, I would be personally happy without Half-Ogres, but I can understand your feeling of wanting a core version of your desired race. I have plenty of those. In fact, I often homebrew to accomodate for them. And my personal opinion is that it's easier to homebrew a Half-Ogre than an Aaracokra, and unlike Aaracokra, you could make a perfectly viable Half-Ogre just by changing some major and minor fluff in Goliaths or Half-Orcs or possibly even Muls.
That said, it wouldn't be the same as a Half-Ogre race, certainly, but it's a possibility for you to play, while right now, it is -impossible- to play an Aaracokra without homebrewing. It would take a lot more than refluffing to turn an Elf into a Raptoran, for example. It would require mechanical changes.
What mechanically does the Half-Ogre have to offer? If it's a recombination or a variant on the Half-Orc, Goliath, etc… then it should be a subrace or a variant rule rather than a full race in of itself.
That said, you are entitled to your opinions and desires for the game, and I shut you out with my first reply to it, so for that I vehemently appologise.
Hey Mutt the thing is most of the time I am right. The Duergar need a PC write up and Lizard men would be fun as would the goblin
You're definitely wrong when it comes to the Elemental source.
And honestly, I'd be happy if Half-Ogres simply got a Dragon article statting them out as a PC raceas long as they got a Character Builder update. But it would be nice for me if they were ONE of the PHB-4 races.
To answer some of your questions, first, there are (at least in MY opinion) certain things both fluff-wise (in terms of campaign history) and in potential mechanics that differentiate Half-Ogres from Goliaths.
First, while keeping the +2 to Str makes sense, duplicating the Goliath's Con bonus would indeed be redundant, I grant you this, I'd change that Con bonus to something else. Not Dex, that would be just as bad,given that Half-Orcs already have that cornered. While Half-Ogres aren't particularly Intelligent, per se, they are known for their cunning, so Wisdom perhaps.
Half-Ogres also wouldn't have the Will defense boost that Goliath's have, with +2 to Wis they wouldn't need it, anyway.
Second, I'd change the skill bonuses to +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate. "Smile at the nice guard and show him the fangs daddy ogre left ye, boyo!"
Third, I'd give the Half-Ogre a racial ability similar (but maybe not identical to) to the Monkey-Grip feat from 3.X instead of the "Stone's Endurance" ability. They're BIG suckers, bordering on Large (but still medium-sized), but not any tougher than a really big, stout human. Andre the Giant was really (really, REALLY) strong and tough, but a heart condition still took him out of the great game of life.
Marandahir, thanks for the apology.
And honestly, I'd be happy if Half-Ogres simply got a Dragon article statting them out as a PC raceas long as they got a Character Builder update. But it would be nice for me if they were ONE of the PHB-4 races.
To answer some of your questions, first, there are (at least in MY opinion) certain things both fluff-wise (in terms of campaign history) and in potential mechanics that differentiate Half-Ogres from Goliaths.
First, while keeping the +2 to Str makes sense, duplicating the Goliath's Con bonus would indeed be redundant, I grant you this, I'd change that Con bonus to something else. Not Dex, that would be just as bad,given that Half-Orcs already have that cornered. While Half-Ogres aren't particularly Intelligent, per se, they are known for their cunning, so Wisdom perhaps.
Half-Ogres also wouldn't have the Will defense boost that Goliath's have, with +2 to Wis they wouldn't need it, anyway.
Second, I'd change the skill bonuses to +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate. "Smile at the nice guard and show him the fangs daddy ogre left ye, boyo!"
Third, I'd give the Half-Ogre a racial ability similar (but maybe not identical to) to the Monkey-Grip feat from 3.X instead of the "Stone's Endurance" ability. They're BIG suckers, bordering on Large (but still medium-sized), but not any tougher than a really big, stout human. Andre the Giant was really (really, REALLY) strong and tough, but a heart condition still took him out of the great game of life.
You should come up with a better Half-Ogre racial or you'll get Crimsom to rant about the 'Oversized' ability, the Minotaur and pigeonholing of races.
XD
You should come up with a better Half-Ogre racial or you'll get Crimsom to rant about the 'Oversized' ability, the Minotaur and pigeonholing of races.
XD
Yes, he most certainly will. ^__^
Such as a 'fleet of foot' race that has a racial power along the same kind of lines of the full discipline powers of the monk.
Or some kind of shadow inspired race that has a power along the lines of turn undead but in reverse. It affects living targets. (obviously needs balancing I'm just throwing out some ideas.)
Or maybe a race that can daze a single target with their racial power, to represent a race with innate psychic powers.
There are probably plenty of other ideas, these are just a few off the top of my head.
Lately, i've had to reexamine some of the racial features since they are pretty close to things that have been released (or will be released) but the signature racial power of the race is the Mandragora Scream, which is a close burst reactive debuff. I did have them with feats and features that involve the theme of regrowth but after reading about how the mul is going to have abilities that revolve around being tough and making saves, i've been considering other avenues, including working with poison and mind-effecting powers (both of which are associated with RL mandrake lore).
I also have a myraid of various monster stat blocks based of the basic Mandrake race, all belonged to an extended family of creatures collectively called Mandragoras. They range from the small, screaming Mandragora Sprout that represents the creature of classic myth to the poison-based Nightshade skirmisher that burrows before attacking and the desert-swelling Luffah variant.
On a side note and just wishful thinking. I wouldn't mind seeing Lizardfolk developed into playable races for D&D. I think a Lizardman Fighter would be awesome to play, and yes I know there's dragonborn, but they're not the same as a lizardman. Also, Bullywugs would be kind of cool as well.
I'm just saying that you can make your race easily by refluffing another. Other concepts, like Horseshoecrabfolk cannot be. Right now, with core rules, you can easily play a Half-Ogre. Not so much with our living fossil friend here.
Why doesn't a refluffed Dwarf make a perfectly good craaaaaaab people? Is it the lack of waterbreathing? Can't he be a land craaaaaab person?
... Damn it. Now I want to write up a setting where all of the races use the same mechanics, but are vastly different critters.
I wish people would stop qualifying Lizardmen with the "yes, I know there are Dragonborn but they're not the same!," spiel. Of course they're not the same. Dragonborn aren't even freaking reptiles, and WotC has gone of it's way to show that. So the whole Lizardmen/Dragonborn qualifier is completely redundant.
I wanted to be clear. I brought up the subject of Lizardmen before and got a whole lot of replies telling me basically, "what do we need Lizardmen when there's Dragonborn?" I'm well aware dragonborn are descended from dragons and lizardfolk are reptiles.
... Damn it. Now I want to write up a setting where all of the races use the same mechanics, but are vastly different critters.
There was a thread up about this on the Races board like forever ago. It's definitely been purged by now, but I still remember one or two of the good suggestions. One that I really liked was for Dragonborn as based on a Pheonix of Thunderbird instead of a Dragon, being more like anthropomorphic eagles than anthropomorphic lizards (yes, I know, not the point). There may be a need to limit the racial power to Fire, Lightning, or Thunder damage, but the rest fits pretty perfectly.
Unless they go ahead anyway...
Maybe we should be trying to look for new 'cool' ways of using mechanics in D&D that haven't been touched on yet by racial abilites.
Such as a 'fleet of foot' race that has a racial power along the same kind of lines of the full discipline powers of the monk.
Or some kind of shadow inspired race that has a power along the lines of turn undead but in reverse. It affects living targets. (obviously needs balancing I'm just throwing out some ideas.)
Or maybe a race that can daze a single target with their racial power, to represent a race with innate psychic powers.
There are probably plenty of other ideas, these are just a few off the top of my head.
No one responded to my idea. Now I feel sad.
Interestingly enough, I think it would be neat to have a PC race of the Aberrent Origin, just to see how it would turn out.
We also should have an aquatic race, just to explore the themes of the sea. Sea adventures have potential.
I also wouldn't mind seeing one or two oriental-themed races and/or monsters. I would like the tengu in an MM (especially as a benevolent spirit, teacher, god, etc.), the kappa would be a good aquatic monster, the kitsune have potential as NPC's (they're also good for various levels, like dragons, because the number of tails they have indicates their power) and the kenku would make a decent race in a PHB if fleshed out.
Perhaps a saurian race, too?
Well, here's my hopeful list
Goblin
Bugbear
Hobgoblin
Kenku
Some kind of humanoid exposed to the Far Realm
An aquatic race?
All I can think of
Savage PHB4 ftw.
Or maybe a race that can daze a single target with their racial power, to represent a race with innate psychic powers.
I think that your other ideas are fine, but nine times out of ten, dazing is just too powerful of an effect for a racial power. This discussion pops up with homebrews from time to time, but the result is always the same. The dazed condition simply does too much.
I'm just saying that you can make your race easily by refluffing another. Other concepts, like Horseshoecrabfolk cannot be. Right now, with core rules, you can easily play a Half-Ogre. Not so much with our living fossil friend here.
Why doesn't a refluffed Dwarf make a perfectly good craaaaaaab people? Is it the lack of waterbreathing? Can't he be a land craaaaaab person?
... Damn it. Now I want to write up a setting where all of the races use the same mechanics, but are vastly different critters.
Because, most people have a hard time with "refluffing" a race.
If I say I've got a dwarf, you think he is a dwarf, but when I put down a succubus miniture and say that my character looks like a human female with tiny wings (can't fly) then most people will get confused.
Or if I try to make a minotaur who rides on a boar, I've got to go through 9 pages of trying to explain how character weight is a fluff stat that shouldn't impact the ability to play. Races are not balanced on how heavy/tall/blue/scaly each race is.
Heck, I tried having a dragonborn look something of a two mouthed komodo dragon, a creature I called a Juragono. Some people wouldn't allow me to have that.
There is something to be said for having things that are "Offical" such as an "offical" Horseshoecrabfolk race. And that is the fact that many DMs will NOT allow something to be refluffed, unless there is an official write up on the race, even if the stats/abilities ect are the same as anothers.
I said, "Ardjuna is a prince exiled far from his native Hindaea. His clothes are strange and he speaks Common with an accent."
Then in battle, he stomped on th ground and made some enemies fall down. "My great great great grandfather married the daughter of a mountain god. I inherited this ability."
Or maybe a race that can daze a single target with their racial power, to represent a race with innate psychic powers.
I think that your other ideas are fine, but nine times out of ten, dazing is just too powerful of an effect for a racial power. This discussion pops up with homebrews from time to time, but the result is always the same. The dazed condition simply does too much.
You're probably right there.
I suppose you could downgrade it to suppress an enemies ability to take opportunity actions for a turn. (though this seems too weak).
What about a race with an innate marking ability. (encounter) to represent a mesmerising stare or some such?
When I "refluffed" an Earthborn Genasi (+2 intelligence and strength for a warlord) into a Human, because my dungeon master did not have Genasi in his world, I did not tell everyone, "This is a Genasi, but actually he is a Human." They would always think of him as a Genasi with blue spikes on his head and streaks all over his body.
I said, "Ardjuna is a prince exiled far from his native Hindaea. His clothes are strange and he speaks Common with an accent."
Then in battle, he stomped on th ground and made some enemies fall down. "My great great great grandfather married the daughter of a mountain god. I inherited this ability."
Well now try to refluff it and remove the dues ex mechania from it of "A magic man did it!"
Cause everything can be explained away when you start saying "a magic man did it!"
But I have no idea what you are talking about. A little magic man did not give Ardjuna his powers, nor is he a magician. His (human) ancestor laid with the (earth elemental/genasi) daughter of a minor god in classic mythological fashion.
And intelligent, belevolent Undead race
A cat like race, like Oblivians Kajits.
Centaurs
MURLOCS!!!!
Cyclops
Some kind of bird/humanoid
This being Dungeons & Dragons, magic is very often a case. I never had much use for pseudo-scientific ecological explanations of piercers and gelatinous cubes.
But I have no idea what you are talking about. A little magic man did not give Ardjuna his powers, nor is he a magician. His (human) ancestor laid with the (earth elemental/genasi) daughter of a minor god in classic mythological fashion.
Well apperently you're not a Carlin fan.
The "Magic man" refers to god. In this case, your great great great grandmothers father. He is the "Magic man"
For example, why refluffing just doesn't quite work out the way many people think it does.. A present my Minotaur beast rider. Now minotaurs by the PHB average several hundred pounds. Which became the big problem with my minotaur, that pretty much mechanically I could ride a wolf or boar, but it was unacceptable because of the character's races' weight average.
I tried to explain my character is smaller, as he is a runt. Wasnt' good enough. I tried to the dues ex mechanina of "A Wizard Done it!" wasn't good enough. I tried even saying, he isn't a minotaur, but a deer man. Still not good enough, because a minotaurs powers are all based on his wieght. (Since when did weight and height become balancing factors in 4e? I mean of course other than being a "small" catagory character.)
I'm going to assume that this is the character who you said "Didn't need any racial feats.. and thats why no one needs them"
There is a limitation on how far fluffing can go. You can change your hair color and often your eye color, but in most games... thats about it. (Of course I don't mean that literally.)
For example the Dwarf into Horseshoe Crab folk.
Beyond Dwarves being Red and Horseshoe Crab folk being blue, there is several other differences. Just because they have a small overlap of being very hard to move doesn't make them the same. Cause there is things like water breathing, and swim speed, (Or if thats too much.. bonuses to athletics and endurance)
Having to accept something of "He is a land-only version so he doesn't get those bonuses" just so these people can play the race they want isn't really a good way to go.
Perhaps a Waterborn Genasi for a Crab? Are Sahaguin given racial statistics in the Monster Manual?
I suppose you could downgrade it to suppress an enemies ability to take opportunity actions for a turn. (though this seems too weak).
A relatively recent post of mine explains exactly why dazing is too powerful and offers a starting point for possible alternatives:
People don't seem to realize that the Dazed condition has multiple components. I think that's what the problem is. "Dazed" is just one word, so people don't realize how much it does. When a target is Dazed, (1) it grants combat advantage, (2) it can't flank enemies, (3) it can't take immediate actions, (4) it can't take opportunity actions, and then finally (5) it can only take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor action on its turn in addition to free actions. That's five different effects, with that last effect, that one that everybody remembers best, probably being to powerful even on its own for a racial power to begin with. If you want a lesser version of the Dazed condition, you can remove some of those effects or power them down. Examples:
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, you do not trigger immediate actions or opportunity actions from the target.
Hit: The target loses its minor action on its next turn and grants combat advantage until the end of your next turn.
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, the target cannot flank and takes a -5 penalty to opportunity attacks.
Are all of these above effects perfectly balanced? I don't know, probably not, but I think that they're about in the ball park for racial power balance. However, they're all definitely less powerful than being dazed and yet are perfectly viable effects both conceptually and mechanically.
The only possibly balanced version of just all-out-dazing that I've see was "The target is dazed until the end of your current turn", meaning that only the one character has enough time to take advantage of benefits 1, 3, and 4 for its current turn, and benefits 2 and 5 never actually come up. People always want it to be "until the end of your next turn" or some such, though, because it's always benefit 5 that they're after.
What about a race with an innate marking ability. (encounter) to represent a mesmerising stare or some such?
I think that marking is to Defender-centric a mechanic to give to a race.
The Half Orc's encounter power is very strikerish.
I only meant Mark the target until the end of your next turn.
Off the top of my head there are at least three non-defender classes that can have some limited marking - Rogue, Cleric & Bard. So it's not exclusive to defenders.
I think it could work as a racial power.
Anyway just trying to approach things from a different angle than I want 'such and such race'.
Well yes, I can see why it would be hard to have a Minotaur ride a pig. Why not ride a Dire Boar? Should that not be big enough?
Perhaps a Waterborn Genasi for a Crab? Are Sahaguin given racial statistics in the Monster Manual?
Doesn't matter what you fluffed the Boar into being. It has 16 str, thus it can only hold X. Minotaurs average is over X.
Fluff is great in changeling when you are wanting generally minor cosmetic changes. Like if you want to be black, white, chinese ect when you pick human. Go right on a head.
Heck you can even be an alien like Luke Skywalker if you really wanted to.
Changing fluff is also great when you remove a race on the grounds of "it doesn't exist" as you have.
But when you try to take a dwarf and turn it into a horseshoe crab folk, suddenly you got a bunch of problems. For one, the dwarf in the party is exactly like the HSCF character. Not just a slight overlap between the two, if they were both givin the ability to resist movement and being knocked down.
Yes it is a defender trait, but so is the Goliaths racial power and the Dwarf second wind trick (although that is good for any class).
I totally disagree. Neither the Goliath racial power nor Dwarf racial power are Defender tricks.
The Half Orc's encounter power is very strikerish.
Being able to do more damage does not hinder a character's class or party role the same way that emulating a patently defender for a turn easily may.
Off the top of my head there are at least three non-defender classes that can have some limited marking - Rogue, Cleric & Bard. So it's not exclusive to defenders.
Yes, but for member of those classes, those options are, well, optional. Unless you're going to give such a race multiple options for their power, I don't think that forcing them into a defender role is a good idea.
Well yes, I can see why it would be hard to have a Minotaur ride a pig. Why not ride a Dire Boar? Should that not be big enough?
Doesn't matter what you fluffed the Boar into being. It has 16 str, thus it can only hold X. Minotaurs average is over X.
A Dire Boar (level 6) has a strength of 19. A Thunderfury Boar (level 15) has a strength of 24. Depends if you think your Minotaur should be allowed to ride a Boar at 1st level I guess.
A wild boar is just a pig with long hair and tusks. A human could not ride even a large hog for any good distance or at any good speed; a fantastic boar would be required regardless.
Off the top of my head there are at least three non-defender classes that can have some limited marking - Rogue, Cleric & Bard. So it's not exclusive to defenders.
Yes, but for member of those classes, those options are, well, optional. Unless you're going to give such a race multiple options for their power, I don't think that forcing them into a defender role is a good idea.
Kinda like the Wilden then? With various options for racial power that lean toward a specific role. Just a bit more obvious than the Wilden.
Kinda like the Wilden then? With various options for racial power that lean toward a specific role. Just a bit more obvious than the Wilden.
Sure, but just like the Wilden, I would take care to make at least one of the alternate powers totally role-neutral.
Well yes, I can see why it would be hard to have a Minotaur ride a pig. Why not ride a Dire Boar? Should that not be big enough?
Doesn't matter what you fluffed the Boar into being. It has 16 str, thus it can only hold X. Minotaurs average is over X.
A Dire Boar (level 6) has a strength of 19. A Thunderfury Boar (level 15) has a strength of 24. Depends if you think your Minotaur should be allowed to ride a Boar at 1st level I guess.
A wild boar is just a pig with long hair and tusks. A human could not ride even a large hog for any good distance or at any good speed; a fantastic boar would be required regardless.
Yes. When I take a feat that says "You can ride your animal companion as though it was a mount" at level one, I should be able to use it.. At level one. Not have to wait 6 levels so i can ride something that isn't even my beast companion.
Besides, the Dire Boar is level 6 as a monster: it can be a level X Companion. Just as, also in 4th edition, any monster can be a higher or lower level at the Dungeon Master's discretion: the Dungeon Master's Guide gives explicit directions for so doing.
DMs in there are nothing more than drones.
Umm... let no one expect a Feat to illustrate realism: Arcane adventurers can take a Feat which allows them to use their Familiar as a mount. Perhaps the Animal Companion is meant to grow bigger or something?
Besides, the Dire Boar is level 6 as a monster: it can be a level X Companion. Just as, also in 4th edition, any monster can be a higher or lower level at the Dungeon Master's discretion: the Dungeon Master's Guide gives explicit directions for so doing.
Animal Companion as in the Beastmaster's class feature, not a companion character who happens to be an animal. Animal Companions can't be monsters. They got their own rules.
This is the second thread that has someone using the initials LFR. What is it and how do I avoid it?
Living Forgotten Realms, and don't play under DMs who say they're running LFR.
This is the second thread that has someone using the initials LFR. What is it and how do I avoid it?
Living Forgotten Realms, and don't play under DMs who say they're running LFR.
Unless you have no other choice, or you are constantly on the move.
It was great at first, but as time went on and you start having people show up who already know the entire adventure because this is the 7th time they played it.. The DM is incapable of doing anything in the game because they have to follow the modeul writer directly... and every encounter sets the entire party into fireball formation and has every monster have some sort of minor action breath attack and a +15 inititive..
It gets very depressing.
and if those don't come out in 4PHB, I'm just gonna make a thing for them myself.
I call for actual orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, githyanki, shadar-kai and kobolds.
and if those don't come out in 4PHB, I'm just gonna make a thing for them myself.
Shadar-kai are in the Dragon Annual.
Such an entry could have appeal to a broad section of the player-base. There'd be lots of stat-bumps for the number crunchers, it would throw a bone to the furries, the otaku, and the Oriental Adventures lovers. It would have basis in actual myth and would be easily adaptable for "picky DMs" who could pick and choose exactly which sub-breeds they would allow, etc.
I just wish that they would give the shifter actual traits instead of chocking it up to "Hey the racial power lasts all encounter long!" When most other races have just normal traits that either mimic or directly 'copy' the shifters powers.
Elves for example can move 7.. all the time.
This is the second thread that has someone using the initials LFR. What is it and how do I avoid it?
Living Forgotten Realms, and don't play under DMs who say they're running LFR.
Really? I thought LFR stood for Legend of the Five Rings.
Getting back to the topic however, I would like to recast my vote for unusual races like the following.
1) Merfolk. If they are made so that they can slither on land (as my homebrew merfolk do) or have some other means of land-based mobility, they can easily interact with the land-based races we currently have.
2) Beasts. Animals that are intelligent and can speak.
3) A monster race, like Gnolls, Goblinoids, or Neogi.
The problem with Hengeyokai though is that they are shapeshifters. Thats one of the biggest differences between a Lupin and a Longtooth Shifter.
I just wish that they would give the shifter actual traits instead of chocking it up to "Hey the racial power lasts all encounter long!" When most other races have just normal traits that either mimic or directly 'copy' the shifters powers.
Elves for example can move 7.. all the time.
True, but I think they should throw out the shapeshifting bit... make them "half-man/half-beast" all the time. Gets all that wonky shapeshifting out of the way, makes them distinct from all the Lycans, Shifters, etc. Shapeshifting really should just modify all your stats, yet that would be a tremendous pain in the butt mechanically, so it just should be avoided when possible. If needed, call them something other than Hengeyokai, but then say that they go by many names in different cultures (Hengeyokai, Beastmen, Totemfolk, whatever)
Really? I thought LFR stood for Legend of the Five Rings.
That would be L5R.
Really? I thought LFR stood for Legend of the Five Rings.
That would be L5R.
Although both could work, I guess L5R makes more sense. The 5 is a lot more specific than the F.
I'd like to see a semi-generic entry for "Hengeyokai" (or beast-people, or whatever you want to call them). In one fell swoop, they get almost all of the "animal + human = new race!" iterations out of the way. Write it up similar to the Shifter entry, where each "sub-breed" gets their own different stat bumps and minor racial ability. The fluff can more or less be shared across all sub-breeds, in the same way that Longtooth and Razorclaw share it. Feats and what-not would mostly not be breed specific.
Such an entry could have appeal to a broad section of the player-base. There'd be lots of stat-bumps for the number crunchers, it would throw a bone to the furries, the otaku, and the Oriental Adventures lovers. It would have basis in actual myth and would be easily adaptable for "picky DMs" who could pick and choose exactly which sub-breeds they would allow, etc.
I like the idea of the Hengeyokai as well as other Oriental Adventures races like the Venara.
I would not like to see more playable monsters in the PH4. I think they would be better served in a book all their own. This book could be dedicated to playable monsters. By the time you took all the playable monsters from MM1, 2, 3, & 4 (assumming this book comes out after PH4), added racial feats, and paragon paths for each race, as well as for the race and its preferred class, I believe you have enough to fill a 160 page book. If not, add specific equipment, alchemy and weapons for many of the races. People who want to play those races would buy the book (making the accounting types at WoC happy,) and DMs who don't want playable monsters could just state that book is not available for their campain.
We haven't had playable monsters since 3.5 ....
Depends on your definition. I call the abbreviated writeups in the back of the Monster Manuals 'monster races' and, with the exception of the Bugbear, let players play them as they wish. I have a Goblin and a Kenku in a game right now.
@ricardopituski: Races should be in Player's Handbooks. They don't need to be put in a separate 'Savage Species' style book for the DM to say they aren't allowed. The DM can (though the question is often 'should he') ban material from whatever books he wants, including PHBs.
We haven't had playable monsters since 3.5 ....
Those were playable?
I recall most of them having the racial feature;
"Level Adjustment: Bend over..."
We haven't had playable monsters since 3.5 ....
Those were playable?
I recall most of them having the racial feature;
"Level Adjustment: Bend over..."
QFT!!
We haven't had playable monsters since 3.5 ....
Those were playable?
I recall most of them having the racial feature;
"Level Adjustment: Bend over..."
QFT!!
Amen to that.
LA, under RAW, killed most of the non-standard choices we were given. In most cases, you were better off just advancing the creature as a monster instead of taking class levels.
My last DM however, handled it well with a v3.5 house rule. I had a cleric character with a +2 LA, and he told me to apply the benefits of level 3 minus the benefits of levels 1 & 2. This means taking that level of cleric gave the character: +1d8 (+ Con mod) Hp, +2 (+ Int mod) skill pts, +1 BAB, +1 Ref Save, Turn/Rebuke Undead (as a 1st lvl cleric), 1 lvl 0 spell, 1+1 lvl 1 spells, and 1+1 lvl 2 spells.
At least in 4e the monster races are viable and useful without having to houserule it.
Any time I wanted to make a bit off the wall character, having to bend over... it was just too much to take.
I recall most of them having the racial feature;
"Level Adjustment: Bend over..."
Please, level adjustments were never anywhere near that fun. ^_~
I played level adjustment races once or twice, but only when I was specifically playing with newbies and was looking for ways to make it difficult for myself to be too much more powerful then them.
I'd love to know: Is there anything at all confirmed about PHB4?
I'd love to know: Is there anything at all confirmed about PHB4?
It's going to be called PHB4.
I'd love to know: Is there anything at all confirmed about PHB4?
It's going to be called PHB4.
And it will have two covers with paper in between them.
More seriously, the PH3 just came out; it'll be quite a while before any information on the PH4 leaks.