Some possibilities:
Classes: Shadow will probably be the next power source featured, since we've already got the Assassin and the power source has more unique concepts that can be easily imagined than Elemental. Of course, with Dark Sun coming out later in the year, there's a slight possibility that Elemental will get the nod over Shadow due to the source's greater importance there.
We're likely to see at least one new Psionic class in the PHB4 as well. The third power source could be Primal, Divine, or even Martial. It's difficult, however, to imagine another Martial class that can occupy an unique niche not filled by the Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, or Warlord (as the various attempts at making a Martial Controller show).
Races: If Shadow is the next power source, it's a pretty good bet we'll see Shadar-Kai as an available race. Other races might be a bit difficult to tell (it might be nice to see more "monstrous" races like the Kobold or Goblin make the cut).
One possibility would be to attempt to make a few races that break out of the humanoid mold. For instance:
Centaurs: Might be interesting if they feature a sixth primal class in PHB4. If the thought of having medium-sized centaurs proves too much of an obstacle, Bariaurs could be an alternative. They figured out how to make a four-armed race with the Thri-Kreen from Dark Sun, so a quadripedal race shouldn't be that much more of a challenge.
Winged race: Raptorans or Avariel might fit the mold here. To balance out the obvious advantage that flying would grant, the best solution I see is to merely allow them to glide until paragon levels, where they can get a feat that gives them overland flight (a few paragon paths let characters fly at about the same time, so it should be fairly balanced).
Aquatic race: An underwater (or amphibious, so that they aren't limited to aquatic campaigns) race would also be an interesting option. Watersoul genasi can fill this role to a degree, but aren't a perfect fit.
Undead race: Revenants and dhampyr already give us some options in this mold, but there's always room for more, particularly when designing races around the shadow source.
And their place in the Annual is why they won't be in PHB4, just like the Warforged were in Dragon, and then the EPG. The Minotaur only appeared in Dragon, so they were free for PHB3.
Other potencial races: Kir-Lanan (3.0 FRCS)? Githyanki? Duergar? Kenku? Lizardfolk? Aasimar? Rakshasa? Sharakim (Races of Destiny (3.5) gives them shadow affinity)?
Classes: Shadow-Defender, Shadow-Controller, Shadow-Leader, Shadow-Striker, Psionic-something, Martial-Controller?
Other: Much more on Bloodlines would be a reasonable possibility.
Classes: Shadow-Defender, Shadow-Controller, Shadow-Leader, Shadow-Striker, Psionic-something, Martial-Controller?
...OMG: it comes again!
=)
(but a new martial guy will be interesting, no matter the role)
Classes: Shadow-Defender, Shadow-Controller, Shadow-Leader, Shadow-Striker, Psionic-something, Martial-Controller?
Please, a Psionic striker with the augment points theme.
MY WISHLIST:
Shadow-Defender: Blackguard
Shadow-Controller: Necromancer
Shadow-Leader: Beguiller
Shadow-Striker: Duskblade
Psionic-striker: Lurker or Soulknife
Martial-Controller: Sniper (With venom and explosive arrows, like alchemist fire)
Acolyte, Shadow Leader, Int – Con/Dex
Beguiller, Shadow Controller, Cha – Dex/Int
Hexblade, Shadow Defender, Con – Dex/Cha
Lurk, Psionic Striker, Cha – Dex/Wis
Necromancer, Shadow Controller, Int – Str/Con
Shepherd, Divine Defender, Wis – Con/Cha
My Acolyte concept, is a medic that either is a master of manipulating flesh and organs (Acolyte of the Flesh, Dex), or draining, infusing, and stopping blood (Acolyte of the Blood, Con). It requires great intelligence in order to know the medical skills and necromantic studies to perform these healing works. The Acolyte of the Flesh might also ruin their own body, as they practiced on themselves, and even create organ wretches from their ruined flesh, while the Acolyte of the Blood might drain enemies blood like a vampire, but use it to influse allies with health.
Lurks always seemed to me as someone who wasn't hiding by their stealth, but hiding through a bluff – they erase the image of themselves in their enemies minds. Charisma is perfect for that. As they are social (or anti-social, sometimes) beings, Wisdom is also important, and Dexterity is still important for movement and for non-psychic hiding.
I see Necromancers as both a summoner and a melee combatant themselves. They'll fight right up ther on the front lines. That's why I gave them Str or Con with a major in Int. Notice that they're the only Shadow class without Dexterity.
Shepherds are implement defenders whose only proficiency with weapons are the staff, the club, and the sling, but they can use staffs and clubs as implements (clubs can become rods). It's like a David and Goliath sort of class – they watch over their flock and protect them. It's been talked about elsewhere, and I won't take credit for the idea, but ever since it was raised, I've been hoing to see it.
They hinted at Illumians in Manual of the Planes, and haven't covered them yet, right? Orcs, goblins, and kobolds are my hopes.
Good point, although we've also had the Warforged in Dragon (reprinted in Eberron), the Gnoll (unlikely), Revenant (DDI only atm), and Shadar-kai. Aquatic/amphibious races would be unlikely imo, the closest thing we have to one is the bullywug with swampwalk.
Other potencial races: Kir-Lanan (3.0 FRCS)? Githyanki? Duergar? Kenku? Lizardfolk? Aasimar? Rakshasa? Sharakim (Races of Destiny (3.5) gives them shadow affinity)?
Classes: Shadow-Defender, Shadow-Controller, Shadow-Leader, Shadow-Striker, Psionic-something, Martial-Controller?
Other: Much more on Bloodlines would be a reasonable possibility.
Aasimar probably isn't going to happen, it'd be considered needless symmetry, and Deva does a good job as an angelic PC race while being unique (instead of just "well, I'm a human, but because granpappy was an angel I glow sometimes, and I'm good for no adequately explained reason.") Also, there's supposed to be deva bloodline feats in Dragon, so that covers "granpappy was an angel" better than a race. Although, if alignment still had mechanical effects, I could possibly see aasimars as having come about similar to tieflings, a group of humans that dedicated themselves to the deity that was killed by Asmodeus (the Jesus knock-off that had the chalice that the Knights of the Chalice in Divine Power want), but since the deity's death, they're mechanically considered lawful good or good whenever their actual alignment wouldn't help (the idea being they could take both G and LG feats, if they existed... or have a Tiamat worshipper benefitting from LG feats...). But alignment doesn't have any mechanical effect, so no point (although I suppose a houserule that radiant damage is now keyworded according to the alignment of the attacker, but eh, too much work right now).
Duergar, Kenku, and Lizardfolk would be interesting additions.
Rakshasa would be a good idea, evil Devas are supposed to reincarnate as Rakshasas, right?
I don't see Rakshasas happening due to extreme villain decay.
I'm actually hoping for another divine class in PH4, to finish off the Divine Power source.
...in my opinion, divine is already finished: we founded divine classes for 3 PHBs at that's no limit of 6 classes to get
if they found new good divine concepts, let's we see
I don't know enough psionics, so I don't know if there are other concepts to cover
could be possible if in PHB4 find place 2 new sources, aka Shadow and Elemental?
Hexblade- Defender
Beguiler- Striker (caster)
?- Controller
?- Leader
Psionic- Lurk or Soulkniffe would be nice
Martial- Something
I'd be fine with Shadow not having a leader, since the shadow ideas are usually more loner types I think it could work, and having one could to. Don't know what role, possibly controller, but I would like to see a shadow class that manipulates shadows like shikamaru or other characters with umbrakinesis.
I want another martial class, with some of what we're seeing from MP2 they are tapping a lot of cool space.
Archivist
"Ash from the temple ruins of Zaluul is known to ward off evil and conceals the righteous, let's see if it works"
Role: Controller. Your collection of ancient knowledge and relics are used to get the upper hand on your enemies, depending on how you use your gifts you may lean towards leader or striker as a secondary role
Power Source: Divine. With the blessings of the gods, you have spent much time unearthing the lost scriptures, forgotten lore and sacred treasures of the ages, you use this divine knowledge and various holy baubles in the name of the gods of both old and new
Key Abilities: Int vs. Dex with Wis
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Implement: Tomes
Builds: Lore Seeker and Treasure Hunter
Thats right, a V class. I see this class taking on two archetypes; the Divine rogue who uses reliquary and divine luck to undermine his opponents in a very Indiana Jonnes type way, and the robe wearing Divine scholar who can use their esoteric knowledge of their enemies to overpower them.
For somereason, the non-roguish one I feel should have a minor in Leadership, as a pulpit-reader of divine texts to convert the masses.
Godborn
“My body and soul was forged by Moradin himself, I am a gift to the world and a bane to the likes of you”
Role: Defender. With the blood of a god flowing through your veins, you have resilience and might to stand up for the weak and protect your fellow mortals
Power Source: Divine. Perhaps it was foretold, perhaps it was a secret, but you are the living kin of the gods themselves and that divine heritage is the source of your power
Key Abilities: Con with Str or Cha
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, light shield, heavy shield
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged, military melee
Builds: Mighty Godborn and Adonis Godborn
Ki Focus user, they can use the Divine power flowing though them to turn even a rusty old sword or even their fist into the weapon of a god. The class is designed to cover demigods such as Hercules or Perseus, natural born heroes.
More thoughts later maybe?
I almost forgot about Archivists. I really would like that concept too.
For somereason, the non-roguish one I feel should have a minor in Leadership, as a pulpit-reader of divine texts to convert the masses.
No yeah, thats how I have it; Scholar minor in leader because they're the ones who bring this lore to the people and help them with it, Delvers minor in striker because their tactics are more similar to the beast Druids with precision control.
I like the idea of a melee controller, but I only think it only works as one half of a class, with the other side doing the AoEs and such; other wise you just fall short of what a controller needs to be able to do IMO, so with this class, like Druid, you have the option of going all melee.
I'm really... tired of the Divine power source (to be fair, same with Arcane), at least when it comes to new material. I'd rather they focus on other things. Preferably Shadow, and more Psionic stuff (and some other things?).
Really, Runepriest doesn't have you *super fired up* about Divine?
Witch
"if you give to the earth, then I shall give back ten fold, and if you take from it, i will come for what is due"
Role: Leader. Using the hidden magic of the spirit world, you have the power to change your allies into fierce predators and your foes into easy prey
Power Source: Primal. The earth provides humanity with all it needs, you are one of the few who know where to find it, the ancient secrets of the spirit way are great enough to challenge the gods themselves
Key Abilities: Wis with Int or Dex
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Implement: Tomes, daggers, totems
Builds: Lunar Mystic and Voodoo Mystic
Witchs cover a wide range of archetypes; such as witch doctor, wu-jen and pagan priest. Their powers are themed on transforming allies and enemies; the Lunar Mystic focuses on the allies such as giving a ally a encounter power or turning the whole party into wolves, the Voodoo Mystic focuses on transforming enemies such as controlling them via "black sleep" or turning their hands into glass.
Really, Runepriest doesn't have you *super fired up* about Divine?
Haha. It's not just the Runepriest (which I'm trying to keep an open mind about, until I see it in person). More of a "we've seen Divine in every PH - I'd really rather they use the space for new classes with other themes."
The Archivist was a great class, and I'd love to see it come back... but I'm not sure it would have to be Divine. (And I'd love to see it be Dragon-only content, rather than filling a PH again).
I'm really... tired of the Divine power source (to be fair, same with Arcane), at least when it comes to new material. I'd rather they focus on other things. Preferably Shadow, and more Psionic stuff (and some other things?).
Seconded.
Divine are already looking at having the most classes to them together with arcane.
GIVE US KOBOLDS ALREADY @_@
I'm really... tired of the Divine power source (to be fair, same with Arcane), at least when it comes to new material. I'd rather they focus on other things. Preferably Shadow, and more Psionic stuff (and some other things?).
Seconded.
Divine are already looking at having the most classes to them together with arcane.
Maybe because it is easier to attach the arcane/divine fluff to a particular class? Make any power and slap on arcane/divine and it makes sense, but hard for martial.
Anyway I am more interested to see what other things are in the PHB4 besides race and class...and rules update
Aberration - playable aberant races miss
Angel - get: deva angel-style
Aquatic - miss, except watersoul genasi from Forgotten Realms
Beast - shifters and minotaurs shoul cover beast-like races
Polimorph - changeling from Eberron
Construct - warfoged from Eberron are construct-style
Demon - maybe genasi from Forgotten Realms are covering the elemental part of demons?
Devil - tiefling are devil-style
Dragon - dragonborn dragon-style
Elemental - genasi from Forgotten Realms
Fey - many playable races
Fly - windsoul genasi from Forgotten Realms and some options for dragonborn
Giant - goliath giant-like besides being medium-size
Humanoid - all playable races are humanoid
Immortal - deva are
Living construct - see Construct
Magical beast - check Beast, and partly dragonborn, maybe
Mount - centaurs will be interesting, but a mount race means rule black-hole IMHO
Natural - most races are
Ooze - sentient oozes with acid-attacks? interesting, but maybe too strange
Plant - wilden coming
Reptile - dragonborn cover it
Shadow - shadar-kai in Dragon Annual
Shapechanger - check polimorph and beast
Swarm - very strange, like for oozes
Undead - revenants are
For races, I want kobolds. I agree that them and goblins belong in a book with shadow classes. And I'd kind of like to see a swarm-race. I've read books that include them, and I think it's awesome! (Though perhaps a refluffed shardmind will do).
And I want a Dark Age of Camelot style friar.
Seconded.
Divine are already looking at having the most classes to them together with arcane.
?
Arcane = 6
Divine = 5
Primal = 5
Martial = 4
Psionic = 4
Shadow =1
Seconded.
Divine are already looking at having the most classes to them together with arcane.
?
Arcane = 6
Divine = 5
Primal = 5
Martial = 4
Psionic = 4
Shadow =1
Just what I was thinking, CelticMutt. Primal's in the same boat as Divine.
I want 6 Primal and 6 Divine. I think there is conceptual space for both power sources to continue to expand. I could even see 7 Divine (Archivist and Shepherd).
I don't see any conceptual space for Martial left. Especially not after MP2 released builds and PPaths and Combat Styles that covered aspects that people were suggesting as new classes for Martial (Swashbuckling Defenders, Myrmidons, etc).
I -know- there's more conceptual space for Psionic. Lurk is an example, but I want a Mystic class that uses Wisdom as a primary as well.
Since we aren't getting any new classes in Dark Sun, but instead are getting the Arena Fighter, Animist Shaman, and Sorcerer-King Warlock, as well as themes like Wilder, Gladiator, Elemental Priest, Veiled Alliance, and Templar, I see new Psionic Classes at the earliest coming with PH4. There might be a sixth in whatever Campaign Setting is after Dark Sun, though, and with the new product direction of putting new builds in books that aren't Power series books (the Essentials line), we might even see a whole Psionic class in another medium. Assassin paved the way, being a Dragon only class; there might be an exclusive Psionic class as well to Dragon.
As much as I know it would cut into book space for new races / classes, I'd love to see more themes like the ones from the Dark Sun characters, but without being limited to Dark Sun characters. I think it has huge potential, in both mechanics and flavor. I'd love to see generic themes that could apply across all settings as well as themes for Eberron and Forgotten Realms. Though I suppose that might work better as a Dragon article, the setting-specific ones especially ...
Martial is doing incredibly well thanks to the power books, which took four classes and expanded them into so many archetypes, blending a myriad of combat styles and mechanical methods into an array of awesome potential. I'd like to see the same applied to other classes. The wizard, for example, is doing a great job with its class features drawing upon four secondaries and a wide range of possible power themes. The same should be done for all the current classes, with more variation, more archetypes, and more styles drawn under the banner of a single class name.
But for the handbooks, I'd like them bring us completely new ideas.
That means the next defender shouldn't just be another Fighter clone, it should actually be a twist on the defence concept we have never seen. We don't need another melee leader, we need something that actually broadens the horizons of the support and buffer character concept. The blaster-conditioner-summoner trope has been done pretty well over in the controller line, so perhaps the next one should shake it up a bit.
Classes should be broad, evocative, and thematically and mechanically compelling. Let the niche ideas be folded into current material to broaden them, and allow the new classes to break new ground for the game as a whole.
As much as I know it would cut into book space for new races / classes, I'd love to see more themes like the ones from the Dark Sun characters, but without being limited to Dark Sun characters. I think it has huge potential, in both mechanics and flavor. I'd love to see generic themes that could apply across all settings as well as themes for Eberron and Forgotten Realms. Though I suppose that might work better as a Dragon article, the setting-specific ones especially ...
The Dark Sun themes are no more restricted to Dark Sun than Artificers are restricted to Eberron or Drow to Forgotten Realms.
I mostly want a very large, clearly labelled sidebar that says 'Shadow is not evil'.
Something like what it is said in the alignment part of the Shadowcaster's description? (Tome of Magic)
?
Arcane = 6
Divine = 5
Primal = 5
Martial = 4
Psionic = 4
Shadow =1
Okay, so martial/psionic are still on a higher priority for a 5th class than divine/primal are.
I don't see any conceptual space for Martial left. Especially not after MP2 released builds and PPaths and Combat Styles that covered aspects that people were suggesting as new classes for Martial (Swashbuckling Defenders, Myrmidons, etc).
Martial controller!!!1 xD
Also, I'd love for PHB4 to the "race" book, instead of delving into something like hybrid classes or a new feature like that, just an expanded section on racial paragon/epics and racial powers/feats. Toss some more backgrounds in for good measure and I'm happy. You wouldn't even have to give me a new race with this option if you give love to the current races.
EDIT: The above statement still comes from the Races preview book where they say they wanted rave to play a bigger role in later game play then just at charater creation. While there is a fair amount of options that point to them doing this, I personally feel they can still do alot more to live up to that claim.
As much as I know it would cut into book space for new races / classes, I'd love to see more themes like the ones from the Dark Sun characters, but without being limited to Dark Sun characters. I think it has huge potential, in both mechanics and flavor. I'd love to see generic themes that could apply across all settings as well as themes for Eberron and Forgotten Realms. Though I suppose that might work better as a Dragon article, the setting-specific ones especially ...
The Dark Sun themes are no more restricted to Dark Sun than Artificers are restricted to Eberron or Drow to Forgotten Realms.
Agreed, however, they are more like the Dragonmarked Feats, though not quite like Spellscarred.
The have a fluff tied to important elements of Dark Sun. You'd have to do some refluffing to put the Veilled Alliance or Templar themes into an Eberron or Forgotten Realms game. The Elemental Cleric, Wilder, and Gladiator themes, on the other hand, are more generic.
I want to see more of the generic themes, as well as a couple setting-specific ones for Eberron and Forgotten Realms.
I mostly want a very large, clearly labelled sidebar that says 'Shadow is not evil'.
Something like what it is said in the alignment part of the Shadowcaster's description? (Tome of Magic)?
Arcane = 6
Divine = 5
Primal = 5
Martial = 4
Psionic = 4
Shadow =1
Okay, so martial/psionic are still on a higher priority for a 5th class than divine/primal are.I don't see any conceptual space for Martial left. Especially not after MP2 released builds and PPaths and Combat Styles that covered aspects that people were suggesting as new classes for Martial (Swashbuckling Defenders, Myrmidons, etc).
Martial controller!!!1 xD
Unless that was a joke, Martial Controller isn't a conceptual space. It's a fluff-meet-crunch combo concept. I don't see Martial having any priority for a 5th class, because they did exactly what they should do with Martial concepts: worked them into an existing class, or as a combat style. Many concepts that have been raised really aren't a class, but a way of playing multiple classes. It's similar like themes in Dark Sun or Domain Feats from Divine Power.
I'll agree that Psionic has the highest priority for another class, but I think that Divine and Primal actually have a higher priority than Martial for another class.
Dragoncat made a very good point about what they're doing with Martial. I don't know if they're doing the same thing with other Power Sources though. Many ideas in other power sources aren't as solidly different from each other, with a myriad of builds that might be worked on.
I disagree with a demigod base class. Yes, it's a good fantasy staple. But it ought to be like a feat chain + paragon path/epic destiny, not its own class.
I think it depends on the setting. Most of the official settings are heading towards the gods not interacting with the world much (if at all), so stuff like Demigod and Avatar of Io epic destinies are probably going to be it. In a setting based on or inspired by Greek mythology, Godborn makes a lot of sense. Not all classes have to be equally present in all worlds, though. I mean, Artificers probably wouldn't be as common in Dark Sun as they are in Eberron.
Plus, sorcerers already get their power from "my granpappy was (a dragon, a primordial, a tsunami, or autumn)." It really wouldn't be that much of a stretch to have a few rare individuals that claim to have their power from being the child of a god, and appear to be right. It's kinda the Invoker response to Paladin: a defender class that gets their power from the gods themselves, instead of investure. Instead of issuing divine challenges, the character has some aura of awesome that lets the baddies know "either attack me or bow down." I could see the secondary role being striker (unlike the paladin's leader), the godborn wouldn't have much in the way of healing, but could focus the aura of awesome on a single enemy and let everyone else know "this fight is just between me and the guy I'm gonna take down before I finish this sentence."
EDIT: The above statement still comes from the Races preview book where they say they wanted rave to play a bigger role in later game play then just at charater creation. While there is a fair amount of options that point to them doing this, I personally feel they can still do alot more to live up to that claim.
I could have sworn that a developer mentioned that they had just dropped that idea for some reason or another. I realy wish that I could remember who said it and when they said it, but I'm pretty sure that races not playing the bigger role was because of an intentional decision by the developers.
Agreed, however, they are more like the Dragonmarked Feats, though not quite like Spellscarred.
The have a fluff tied to important elements of Dark Sun. You'd have to do some refluffing to put the Veilled Alliance or Templar themes into an Eberron or Forgotten Realms game. The Elemental Cleric, Wilder, and Gladiator themes, on the other hand, are more generic.
I want to see more of the generic themes, as well as a couple setting-specific ones for Eberron and Forgotten Realms.
Honestly I would say that Dark Sun themes are probably closer to FR backgrounds than anything else. I fully expect PHB4 to have rules for themes(although not neccesarily idetical to the ones presented in Dark Sun) along with generic ones for all settings.
Ian.thomson, I agree that I'd like a setting with demigods as PCs - in fact, I really want to see it. That said, I question if a class is best-suited for it. I could imagine it as a feat tree, a path/epic destiny, or a theme. Now, if you wanted only a Hercules-type demigod, yes, I think a class would be appropriate - but if you wanted something that could handle "child of Ioun and master of magic" just as readily as "son of Kord/Hercules" then I think a different approach would be best. I imagine the former as a wizard with special features tacked on, while the second is a fighter or barbarian with features tacked on. And the former wouldn't even feel like a defender to me. I love the concept, but I think a different approach might be better-suited.
Well, for one thing, it is an Epic Destiny already. I agreed that if you want to aim for more of "WORSHIP ME!!!" then a Epic Destiny is better, but I'm going for "I'm no god, I just here to help"
When I said demigod in the class concept, I didn't mean it in a D&D sense so much as just the classic Greek myth sense. This class would be more for the Hercules and Jason types, I think if you wanted to play a more blasty Raiden type then Invoker is just a quick flavor tweak from what you need (Or maybe Sorcerer in the case of Ioun)
Ian.thomson, I agree that I'd like a setting with demigods as PCs - in fact, I really want to see it. That said, I question if a class is best-suited for it. I could imagine it as a feat tree, a path/epic destiny, or a theme. Now, if you wanted only a Hercules-type demigod, yes, I think a class would be appropriate - but if you wanted something that could handle "child of Ioun and master of magic" just as readily as "son of Kord/Hercules" then I think a different approach would be best. I imagine the former as a wizard with special features tacked on, while the second is a fighter or barbarian with features tacked on. And the former wouldn't even feel like a defender to me. I love the concept, but I think a different approach might be better-suited.
Well, for one thing, it is an Epic Destiny already. I agreed that if you want to aim for more of "WORSHIP ME!!!" then a Epic Destiny is better, but I'm going for "I'm no god, I just here to help"
When I said demigod in the class concept, I didn't mean it in a D&D sense so much as just the classic Greek myth sense. This class would be more for the Hercules and Jason types, I think if you wanted to play a more blasty Raiden type then Invoker is just a quick flavor tweak from what you need (Or maybe Sorcerer in the case of Ioun)
Actually, now I'm seeing Godborn/base class Demigod as a build of the Sorcerer rather than anything else. It seems more like a Sorcerer concept than it's own class.
Get. Over. It.
If we get new classes, we need interesting concepts. If and how that class fits in the source/role grid is secondary, important is that the class is unique in both flavor and mechanics. Stop looking at the damn grid, and start thinking about which fantasy archetypes (or D&D archetypes) aren't covered by the current ruleset.
Actually, now I'm seeing Godborn/base class Demigod as a build of the Sorcerer rather than anything else. It seems more like a Sorcerer concept than it's own class.
When somebody says "Hercules," I do not think "sorcerer."
Actually, now I'm seeing Godborn/base class Demigod as a build of the Sorcerer rather than anything else. It seems more like a Sorcerer concept than it's own class.
Explain.
I really only want people to STFU about power sources already. It's the meta concept that has the least effect on the actual rules. Why is the Ranger not primal? Or rather, if he was, would it make any difference? No! Could the Necromancer be arcane? Sure! The bard martial? Why not?
Get. Over. It.
If we get new classes, we need interesting concepts. If and how that class fits in the source/role grid is secondary, important is that the class is unique in both flavor and mechanics. Stop looking at the damn grid, and start thinking about which fantasy archetypes (or D&D archetypes) aren't covered by the current ruleset.
+1
I really only want people to STFU about power sources already. It's the meta concept that has the least effect on the actual rules. Why is the Ranger not primal? Or rather, if he was, would it make any difference? No! Could the Necromancer be arcane? Sure! The bard martial? Why not?
Get. Over. It.
If we get new classes, we need interesting concepts. If and how that class fits in the source/role grid is secondary, important is that the class is unique in both flavor and mechanics. Stop looking at the damn grid, and start thinking about which fantasy archetypes (or D&D archetypes) aren't covered by the current ruleset.
Quoted for truth.
Despite the fact that Arcane has six classes, I can imagine many more Arcane classes yet. How about a controller which uses magical technology like an artificer (instead of a leader)? How about a demonologist? Or a witch?
I like the Shepherd with a staff and a sling mentioned before, and I like the Demigod Hercules idea. My own preference is still for the Friar Tuck archetype: striking and healing with a staff and a keg of ale.
Actually, now I'm seeing Godborn/base class Demigod as a build of the Sorcerer rather than anything else. It seems more like a Sorcerer concept than it's own class.
When somebody says "Hercules," I do not think "sorcerer."
Well it would be a hypothetical new build where all the spells would be meele or close burst with the look of "my fists glow with the god power in my blood"
If we get new classes, we need interesting concepts. If and how that class fits in the source/role grid is secondary, important is that the class is unique in both flavor and mechanics. Stop looking at the damn grid, and start thinking about which fantasy archetypes (or D&D archetypes) aren't covered by the current ruleset.
Indeed.
If you ask me, both Martial and Psionic are done; I can't think of any Martial or Psionic concept that couldn't be integrated into one of the existing classes in those sources. Also, after we get Necromancer, Hexblade and Beguiler, I think we will be done with Shadow as well.
We don't need to have the same number of classes in each power source, we don't need a class of each role in every power source, quite simply, we don't *need* any new classes.
I want to tell the story of a persecuted Witch or of a world wise Archivist and I don't need a new class to do that, I could just use Cleric for either, but if they had their own class it make the Archivist and the Witch identities stronger and also make the Cleric's identity stronger.
I don't like it when WotC makes a new class just for newness sake, I don't care how cool it's mechanics are, I want each class to have purpose and to offer us something that's time tested inspiring that empowers our creativity not distract us from creativity.
Classes like Seeker and Runepriest IMO are way too specific, we've already gotten to a point where you can't make a class that doesn't step on another class' toes, so shouldn't we be focused on making classes that have a strong enough identity of their own that people wouldn't need to compare them to the classes they resemble?
Actually, now I'm seeing Godborn/base class Demigod as a build of the Sorcerer rather than anything else. It seems more like a Sorcerer concept than it's own class.
When somebody says "Hercules," I do not think "sorcerer."
Clearly, you have not played a Cosmic Sorcerer. Nothing says divinity like "I can bend space and time with my muscles! My abs violate the law of causality and my bodacious pectorals can unleash a singularity when I flex!"
Actually, now I'm seeing Godborn/base class Demigod as a build of the Sorcerer rather than anything else. It seems more like a Sorcerer concept than it's own class.
When somebody says "Hercules," I do not think "sorcerer."
Clearly, you have not played a Cosmic Sorcerer. Nothing says divinity like "I can bend space and time with my muscles! My abs violate the law of causality and my bodacious pectorals can unleash a singularity when I flex!"
Didn't Arnold say that in Hercules in New York?
Ian.thomson, I agree that I'd like a setting with demigods as PCs - in fact, I really want to see it. That said, I question if a class is best-suited for it. I could imagine it as a feat tree, a path/epic destiny, or a theme. Now, if you wanted only a Hercules-type demigod, yes, I think a class would be appropriate - but if you wanted something that could handle "child of Ioun and master of magic" just as readily as "son of Kord/Hercules" then I think a different approach would be best. I imagine the former as a wizard with special features tacked on, while the second is a fighter or barbarian with features tacked on. And the former wouldn't even feel like a defender to me. I love the concept, but I think a different approach might be better-suited.
The child of Ioun could alternatively be another build for Invoker. Perhaps demigods as alternate builds for all the classes would be a possibility? Course, this would really be more appropriate for a discussion about Divine Power 2.
The child of Ioun could alternatively be another build for Invoker. Perhaps demigods as alternate builds for all the classes would be a possibility? Course, this would really be more appropriate for a discussion about Divine Power 2.
IMO that's stretching the classes a bit too much, I could see the Invoker adopting the Raiden stuff, but the other Divine classes cover plenty of concepts as is, we want to avoid watering down the identity they already possess.
I don't really like the Idea of Divine heritage being something tacked on; Hercules was defined by his heritage and the gifts that came with it, he did not rely on a Fighter's training or Barbarian's spirit he didn't need those things and thats not what made him great.
Other defender classes already have defining features, and the Godborn would have it's own as well; He is known as "the mighty Hercules", not "the skilled Hercules" or "the mystic Hercules" or "the holy Hercules"
So what thematics are left? The Shadow source has a few possibilities to cover:
Necromancer: Probably one of the biggest holes left to fill. Given the disagreement on what role a Necromancer should play (Controller? Leader?), the class might be worth splitting into two. One class, the Necromancer, could serve as the Controller that summons hordes of undead and debilitates his foes with necrotic blasts. Another, the Reaper, could serve as a Striker with a secondary Leader role that drains energy from foes and emulates the undead through use of his powers. This class could also incorporate elements of the "black knight" archetype which gets suggested here and there.
Beguiler: The role suggested here appears to be a "shadow trickster", or roguish mage, which befuddles his foes with shadowy illusions. This seems to be a conceptual expansion of the illusionist with some rogue-like abilities added on.
Hexblade: This concept seems to mix Defender with Controller to create a character talented at debuffing enemies and causing them ill fortune if they avoid him.
The Elemental source is harder to imagine, since a lot of Arcane and Primal classes use plenty of elemental attacks already. The most common suggestion seems to be the use of transmutation as a theme, though we'll have to wait and see what they have in mind for it.
I really only want people to STFU about power sources already. It's the meta concept that has the least effect on the actual rules. Why is the Ranger not primal? Or rather, if he was, would it make any difference? No! Could the Necromancer be arcane? Sure! The bard martial? Why not?
Get. Over. It.
If we get new classes, we need interesting concepts. If and how that class fits in the source/role grid is secondary, important is that the class is unique in both flavor and mechanics. Stop looking at the damn grid, and start thinking about which fantasy archetypes (or D&D archetypes) aren't covered by the current ruleset.
+1
This. Also, martial controller is totally feasible. Any character can take the alchemy feat from AV2 without autmoatically becoming an arcane character. There is no reason there can't be a Martial Chemist controller. All you need is some powers and class features geared for this purpose (like the following from one of my other posts).
Here is my stab at a couple martial controller powers. We'll assume the class makes alchemical and clockwork gizmos to effect powers that's can't rationally be called martial w/o them. The class will be given the placeholder name of Gadgeteer.
Intimidating Shout Gadgeteer Attack 1
You unleash a frightful roar that staggers the foes around you.
At-will ♦ Martial, Fear
Standard Action Close blast 3
Target: Each creature in blast.
Attack: [Ability] vs Fortitude
Hit: 1d6 + [Ability] modifier damage, and you push the target
a number of squares equal to your [Ability] modifier.
Gummy Arrow Gadgeteer Attack 1
You fire an arrow at your foe, smashing the alchemical glue pot
bound to the arrow and coating your foe in a sticky mess.
At-will ♦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature.
Attack: [Ability] vs Fortitude
Hit: 1[w] + [Ability] modifier damage, slowing the target until
the end of your next turn.
Special: Supply cost of ? gp.
Class features:
Alchemical Preparation
The Gadgeteer is trained in preparing alchemical concoctions and the invention of clockwork devices to help deliver them. The Gadgeteer gains the Alchemy feat (from Adventurer's Vault).
Control Weapons
The gadgeteer is able to take any of the multi-class feats that pertain to the use of control weapons such as the net, bola, and whip; without these feats counting as the one and only multi-class feat the character is allowed to take.
This is all just off the top of my head.
I really only want people to STFU about power sources already. It's the meta concept that has the least effect on the actual rules. Why is the Ranger not primal? Or rather, if he was, would it make any difference? No! Could the Necromancer be arcane? Sure! The bard martial? Why not?
Get. Over. It.
If we get new classes, we need interesting concepts. If and how that class fits in the source/role grid is secondary, important is that the class is unique in both flavor and mechanics. Stop looking at the damn grid, and start thinking about which fantasy archetypes (or D&D archetypes) aren't covered by the current ruleset.
You make a good point in your second paragraph, but you went about a bad way of putting it. Your very first sentence is immediately putting off and offensive. Please refrain from such speech hearafter. I, at least, found it very offensive.
That said, I disagree about your first paragraph comment, though I agree with your second. We need to make sure the class is unique in both flavour and mechanics, and think about archetypes rather than grid combinations, but power source is a major source of flavour, and there are fundamental reasons why a Ranger is Martial and not Primal, and why a Bard is Arcane and not Martial, and why many people think that Necromancer will be Shadow. Power Sources are a powerful archetypal source of fluff that shouldn't be discounted. That said, it's not a class if all you have is Power Source + Role. But when building the class, placing it in the right power source is very important. There's a reason why the Ironjack was untenable. The connection between the Feywild and Psionics was weak – Psychic damage and charms and Illusions are probably the only real connection, and Psionics has grown into something other than just mental-effecting abilities. Battlemind is more than just a Psionic Defender, and I'll defend that to the last.
But here is not the place to argue that. In any case, I agree with you immensely about needing to make sure the classes are tenable, archetypal concepts on their own, and would like to add that they need to be different enough that they can be a full class, not a build of another class. Which leads me to…
Actually, now I'm seeing Godborn/base class Demigod as a build of the Sorcerer rather than anything else. It seems more like a Sorcerer concept than it's own class.
Explain.
If Chaos Sorcerers have the blood of Primordials, other Elementals, or just raw chaos matter running in their veins (and arteries), and Dragon Sorcerers the same with Dragons, and Storm Sorcerers feel the storm in their very essense, while Cosmic Sorcerers are in-tune with the rhythms of the heavens, I see no reason why not there can't be a Godborn Sorcerer who bears the bloodline of deities themselves.
If there's a difference between an Arcane-Powered Character using a roulette of elemental attacks because they are descended from Elementals and an Elemental-Powered Character, then there can easily be a difference between an Arcane-Powered Character using radiant and holy-like powers because they are descended from Immortals and a Divine-Powered Character.
It's like the difference between the Warlock and various Power Sources it emulates. It's definitely in the Arcane category because of fluff reasons and what Arcane is.
What Godborn seems to be is trying to make a Divine Sorcerer, which is no different from putting halos on Martial Characters and calling them Psionic (which, while hilarious, is a vast understatement of the fluff and mechanical differences between the Ardent and Warlord, Battlemind and Fighter, and Psion and Wizard).
I now can see an ending for Godborn: Cha/Str Sorcerer, you draw on the innate divine spark within your blood, but you learn to channel the energy through the arcane sorcerous methods.
There are plenty of Divine PPaths and EDests that nurture this concept for Divine characters that discover that they were drawn to their lifestyle because of their divine spark, but I see the character who developed from 1st level, nuturing the godblood in their veins as the very definition of a Sorcerer.
You might even nurture the melee combat concept for the Godborn Sorcerer, something that there is a bit of already for Sorcerers, but can be expanded on tremendously.
This is the sort of concept that really should be wrapped into an existing class, like the Sorcerer, rather than make a whole new class just for the hell of it. Sorcerer already has the foundations for the Godblood in place.
That said, if WotC ever releases a martial controller, I highly doubt it'll be in a PHB. It's much more likely to be a DDI exclusive since, like the Assassin, it's a class that some people are really clamouring for, while other people think it's a stupid idea.
So, back on topic, my predictions for PHB4:
Necromancer - Shadow Controller
Archivist - Shadow Controller
Shadowcaster - Shadow Leader
Beguiler - Shadow Striker
Hexblade - Shadow Defender
Soulknife (absorbs the Lurk) - Psionic Striker
Sentinel - Psionic Defender
Witch - Primal Leader
The Necromancer seems like a Shadow Controller. Hell, he can control the dead. CONTROL!!!!
*ahem*
I'm looking forward to the psionic classes more than anything, but shadow sounds cool, too, so let's see
Psionic Striker- Monk (want to incorporate this into my homebrew campaign)
Psionic Defender- Soulknife (seems most feasily, since it was like a psi-fighter in 3.5)
Psionic Leader- Empath (The idea of someone who understands others makes me think leader)
Psionic Controller- Psychomancer (sounds like a nice name)
Shadow Defender- Hexblade (the hexes from 3.5 are very viable for a defender build)
Shadow Leader- Dark Knight (I have no idea why I'd call it this)
Shadow Controller- Necromancer ('nuff said)
Sorry if this drags the whole thread off topic. Ignore if you want.
I've always thought martial controller was a viable option if done correctly. Something like a class that gets Alchemist as a bonus feat and is able to use alchemical items more effectively than everyone else. Sounds pretty martial. The Alchemist, Gadgeteer, Demolitionist, something like that.
The Necromancer seems like a Shadow Controller. Hell, he can control the dead. CONTROL!!!!
*ahem*
I'm looking forward to the psionic classes more than anything, but shadow sounds cool, too, so let's see
Psionic Striker- Monk (want to incorporate this into my homebrew campaign)
Psionic Defender- Soulknife (seems most feasily, since it was like a psi-fighter in 3.5)
Psionic Leader- Empath (The idea of someone who understands others makes me think leader)
Psionic Controller- Psychomancer (sounds like a nice name)
Shadow Defender- Hexblade (the hexes from 3.5 are very viable for a defender build)
Shadow Leader- Dark Knight (I have no idea why I'd call it this)
Shadow Controller- Necromancer ('nuff said)
You see though, Science and Alchemy and Learning like that has been rerooted into Arcane. You should read Martial Power 2. It clearly defines what the Martial Power Source is, and it has nothing to do with technology – it's about three powers coming together in a brief instance to exceed normal human bodily limitations: natural ability (great strength or uncanny agility), the determination to act, and learned skill acquired through endless hours of practice.
Artificer shows how an Engineer or Alchemist works as a class concept. A martial version would be gimmicky (relying heavily upon something that isn't martial, but rather a different set of rules that anyone could use), and wouldn't fit into the Power Source.
That said: Monk is in PH3!! You don't have to wait for PH4 to play it! Congratulations! You can incorporate it in just one month!
Why would you make the Shadow Leader a Dark Knight? So far, all "Knight" concepts have been Defenders. I'm interested in your reasonings.
You see though, Science and Alchemy and Learning like that has been rerooted into Arcane. You should read Martial Power 2. It clearly defines what the Martial Power Source is, and it has nothing to do with technology – it's about three powers coming together in a brief instance to exceed normal human bodily limitations: natural ability (great strength or uncanny agility), the determination to act, and learned skill acquired through endless hours of practice.
Artificer shows how an Engineer or Alchemist works as a class concept. A martial version would be gimmicky (relying heavily upon something that isn't martial, but rather a different set of rules that anyone could use), and wouldn't fit into the Power Source.
That said: Monk is in PH3!! You don't have to wait for PH4 to play it! Congratulations! You can incorporate it in just one month!
Why would you make the Shadow Leader a Dark Knight? So far, all "Knight" concepts have been Defenders. I'm interested in your reasonings.
(emphasis added)
Science = a learned skill acquired through endless hours of practice.
I now can see an ending for Godborn: Cha/Str Sorcerer, you draw on the innate divine spark within your blood, but you learn to channel the energy through the arcane sorcerous methods.
Yep, that's Hercules to a tee; breathing fire and shootin lightning out of his eyes...
Sorry Mar, I love you, but that is the worst Idea you have ever had. I want to make a class for classic characters like Alexander the Great, Achilles and Gilgamesh, and you suggest a sorcerer build...
Not that what you're saying doesn't make sense, It's just WAY off from what I was going for with the concept.
God powered Sorcerer is not ok with me, just because WotC goofed up by making the Wildmage related to the Elemental Chaos does not make it ok for them to do again. Throw consistency out the window once, shame on them, throw it out twice, shame on us.
Here's the way I would do it; make the Godborn class for those who're created with a divine spark, meaning their body is superpowered by god's blood or whatever, but because they themselves are not gods don't have laser vision or anything like that. Then create a Invoker build called *Covenant of Transcendence* which are for those who are becoming a god themselves. There, you have your Hercules and your Raiden each have their own identity and place within the cosmology.
I find your idea especially silly because you just got done saying how significant Power Sources are, and then you say *ahhh, the lines are pretty blurry in places already so you can just do whatever, why not*
You see though, Science and Alchemy and Learning like that has been rerooted into Arcane. You should read Martial Power 2. It clearly defines what the Martial Power Source is, and it has nothing to do with technology – it's about three powers coming together in a brief instance to exceed normal human bodily limitations: natural ability (great strength or uncanny agility), the determination to act, and learned skill acquired through endless hours of practice.
Artificer shows how an Engineer or Alchemist works as a class concept. A martial version would be gimmicky (relying heavily upon something that isn't martial, but rather a different set of rules that anyone could use), and wouldn't fit into the Power Source.
That said: Monk is in PH3!! You don't have to wait for PH4 to play it! Congratulations! You can incorporate it in just one month!
Why would you make the Shadow Leader a Dark Knight? So far, all "Knight" concepts have been Defenders. I'm interested in your reasonings.
(emphasis added)
Science = a learned skill acquired through endless hours of practice.
Wizard's Arcane Magic = a learned skill aquired through endless hours of practice, including, im prior editions, studying your books every night.
You see though, Science and Alchemy and Learning like that has been rerooted into Arcane. You should read Martial Power 2. It clearly defines what the Martial Power Source is, and it has nothing to do with technology – it's about three powers coming together in a brief instance to exceed normal human bodily limitations: natural ability (great strength or uncanny agility), the determination to act, and learned skill acquired through endless hours of practice.
Artificer shows how an Engineer or Alchemist works as a class concept. A martial version would be gimmicky (relying heavily upon something that isn't martial, but rather a different set of rules that anyone could use), and wouldn't fit into the Power Source.
That said: Monk is in PH3!! You don't have to wait for PH4 to play it! Congratulations! You can incorporate it in just one month!
Why would you make the Shadow Leader a Dark Knight? So far, all "Knight" concepts have been Defenders. I'm interested in your reasonings.
(emphasis added)
Science = a learned skill acquired through endless hours of practice.
Wizard's Arcane Magic = a learned skill aquired through endless hours of practice, including, im prior editions, studying your books every night.
Which probably qaulifies it as a poor definition for martial. However, since they separated magic into another source, logic dictates it must actually mean "a non-magical learned skill acquired through endless hours of practice". Science still fits that category.
Science = a learned skill acquired through endless hours of practice.
No. There is no practice to science, there are only truths and the unknown.
"Do or do not; there is no try."
Also, in D&D Arcane is science; Arcane magic is the laws of physics within the default D&D universe. Things work the same, theres gravity and magnetism but they adhere to a different set of laws, the principles of Arcane magic.
You see though, Science and Alchemy and Learning like that has been rerooted into Arcane.
Read the Adventurer's Vault again.
Alchemical formulas can be composed of a myriad of skills, from Arcane and Religion to Thievery and Heal. A single formula has several different options, with each tailored to the item in question. An herbal poultice, for example, is constrained to just Nature, while Antivenom can be Heal or Nature, and Alchemical Silver can be Nature, Religion, or Thievery.
Most importantly, the broadest skill across the board? Thievery.
In fact, a character trained in Heal and Thievery can make all but two out of the twenty five different formulas presented. That means a Martial character can handle the alchemical source completely without bothering to train in the metaphysical studies of Arcana or Religion.
Science = a learned skill acquired through endless hours of practice.
No. There is no practice to science, there are only truths and the unknown.
But there IS a whole lot of experimentation.
Science = a learned skill acquired through endless hours of practice.
No. There is no practice to science, there are only truths and the unknown.
"Do or do not; there is no try."
Also, in D&D Arcane is science; Arcane magic is the laws of physics within the default D&D universe. Things work the same, theres gravity and magnetism but they adhere to a different set of laws, the principles of Arcane magic.
(emphasis added)
There is if you wanna be able to do it correctly and consistently. Also, trial and error is one of the hallmarks of invention. Even Edison didn't make the lightbulb on his first try.
You see though, Science and Alchemy and Learning like that has been rerooted into Arcane.
Read the Adventurer's Vault again.
Alchemical formulas can be composed of a myriad of skills, from Arcane and Religion to Thievery and Heal. A single formula has several different options, with each tailored to the item in question. An herbal poultice, for example, is constrained to just Nature, while Antivenom can be Heal or Nature, and Alchemical Silver can be Nature, Religion, or Thievery.
Most importantly, the broadest skill across the board? Thievery.
In fact, a character trained in Heal and Thievery can make all but two out of the twenty five different formulas presented. That means a Martial character can handle the alchemical source completely without bothering to train in the metaphysical studies of Arcana or Religion.Science = a learned skill acquired through endless hours of practice.
No. There is no practice to science, there are only truths and the unknown.
But there IS a whole lot of experimentation.
TY. Exactly that.
The Scientific Method is not "Practice makes perfect"
Science is not a artform, IT'S A SCIENCE.
Experimentation is not practice.
The Scientific Method is not "Practice makes perfect"
Science is not a artform, IT'S A SCIENCE.
That's right. And if you don't practice the proper formulas, you'll do the math wrong. And if you don't practice the proper lab proceedures, you'll contaminate your results. And if you don't practice, proper safety proceedures, you might get a nasty chemical burn or create a toxic cloud. And if you don't practice proper record-keeping with your experiements, you won't be able to replicate them to determine if the result was a fluke or a consistent outcome.
Lol. Nope. There's no practice there.
Experimentation is not practice.
The Scientific Method is not "Practice makes perfect"
Science is not a artform, IT'S A SCIENCE.
That's right. And if you don't practice the proper formulas, you'll do the math wrong. And if you don't practice the proper lab proceedures, you'll contaminate your results. And if you don't practice, proper safety proceedures, you might get a nasty chemical burn or create a toxic cloud. And if you don't practice proper record-keeping with your experiements, you won't be able to replicate them to determine if the result was a fluke or a consistent outcome.
Lol. Nope. There's no practice there.
You seem to be intentionally using the other definition of the word "practice" there. Like the old joke about how you find all these doctors practicing medicine, but none actually doing it.
But as has been said; "Guy who studies book stuff and then applies what he's learned on the battlefield" tends to fall under the Arcane powersource in D&D. And "guy who does stuff with stuff he bought" tends to be everyone.
But as has been said; "Guy who studies book stuff and then applies what he's learned on the battlefield" tends to fall under the Arcane powersource in D&D. And "guy who does stuff with stuff he bought" tends to be everyone.
By whose definition? I've always understood the Arcane power source to be the actual manipulation of "arcane energy", i.e. magic, まほう, sorcery, witchcraft.
But as has been said; "Guy who studies book stuff and then applies what he's learned on the battlefield" tends to fall under the Arcane powersource in D&D. And "guy who does stuff with stuff he bought" tends to be everyone.
By whose definition? I've always understood the Arcane power source to be the actual manipulation of "arcane energy", i.e. magic, まほう, sorcery, witchcraft.
What definition? I'm just looking at all the currently existing classes. Most of the classes whose default fluff implies the kind of study that can come from books are Arcane.
It's all three coming together in an instant, allowing the individual to overcome the usual limitations on their body. It's very -body- centric. Not about science at all. I just quoted the most meaningful line. If you read the actual section, you'd get the feel that an Alchemist-type class really doesn't fit in Martial.
That said, I'm slightly upset that you don't understand my "ah-hah!" moment about Sorcerers and Godborn, Mcnancy. And my point that the Power Sources aren't blurred remains strong, though it's nuanced. There's a major difference between worshipping and having a relationship with your deity or philosophy and finding magic within yourself, regardless of origin. Even if there's a divine origin to the magic in your blood, it's still blood magic; it's still a Sorcererer who learns through spells and Arcane experimentation.
And there's a lot of room for a Sorcerer as a melee combatant, as I said. Especially for the Strength Sorcerer. Put that Strength to use and make them wrestle with their foes. Channel that Blood Magic in a way that other Sorcerers never did before.
Only the Chaos Sorcerer draws straight from Elemental Chaos. Storm, Cosmic, and Dragon are quite different. And Dragon may breath fire, but the Cosmic doesn't. Each plays quite differently.
As for Gilgamesh, Achilles, Alexander the Great? Why not? On the other hand, some of these don't really fit here, or as divine. Gilgamesh is a God to begin with, so we can't really make him a PC. He's the brother of Inanna Ishtar. I always saw Alexander the Great as a Warlord. And he was the son of Philipp of Macedonia. Not a God. Achilles has the blessings of a Goddess, and is invulnerable save at his heel due to a childhood experience. This is a motif that is repeated in other myths and folklore (for example, Baldr) but doesn't play out so well as a PC, in my opinion.
That said, the thematic concept of someone descended from a Deity fits more in as a Sorcerer build. If you want something else mechanically, I don't know if that's a desire that quite fits with the fluff as described. But you belittle Sorcerers.
On another note, I am honoured to recieve your love on Valentine's day, Mcnancy. ;)
That's right. And if you don't practice the proper formulas, you'll do the math wrong. And if you don't practice the proper lab proceedures, you'll contaminate your results. And if you don't practice, proper safety proceedures, you might get a nasty chemical burn or create a toxic cloud. And if you don't practice proper record-keeping with your experiements, you won't be able to replicate them to determine if the result was a fluke or a consistent outcome.
Lol. Nope. There's no practice there.
And so if you're really good at those things your science will be better than other peoples science, you will be able to out science anybody with your ability find even more truthier truths than all the other sciencers.
No.
Eveything you just listed are simple feats of memory, organization and behavior, these things are indeed skills, being good at these things will make you a better scientist; but do you know what else they make you better at, everything else in the world.
These things are not science.
But as has been said; "Guy who studies book stuff and then applies what he's learned on the battlefield" tends to fall under the Arcane powersource in D&D. And "guy who does stuff with stuff he bought" tends to be everyone.
Or Warlords, reviewing tactics, reading the history of old campaigns, researching strategic theory, then applying it on the battlefield.
Or Rangers studying creatures, plants, animals, their behavior, their physiology, their weaknesses, then applying it on the battlefield to destory their hunter's quarry.
Or Rogues analyzing weaponry and how it interacts with various armor, hides, skins, the points of a being that can be exploited for maximum impact, then applying it on the battlefield to get the greatest possible effect when delivering a sneak attack.
Or Invokers analyzing the ancient patterns of glyphs, figures, numbers, incantations, and history of great powers, then applying it on the battlefield by summoning those forces into play.
Or Shamans studying the sagas of the ancient powers, of their ancestors, of their heroes, learning their ways and abilities, their mannerisms and requests during summoning, and applying it on the battlefield by calling them forth.
Or Monks studying the great arts of battle passed down through the ages, the theories and manuals of the masters, the pinnacle of a single art, the weavings of an ultimate way, a study of move and counter move, and applying it on the battlefield by executing those maneuvers.
Study is not power source dependent, no more than Innate Ability or Borrowed Power or Hybridization is to any other.
But as has been said; "Guy who studies book stuff and then applies what he's learned on the battlefield" tends to fall under the Arcane powersource in D&D. And "guy who does stuff with stuff he bought" tends to be everyone.
Or Warlords, reviewing tactics, reviewing history of old campaigns, reading about strategic theory, then applying it on the battlefield.
Or Rangers studying creatures, plants, animals, their behavior, their physiology, their weaknesses, then applying it on the battlefield to destory their hunter's quarry.
Or Rogues analyzing weaponry and how it interacts with various armor, hides, skins, the points of a being that can be exploited for maximum impact, then applying it on the battlefield to get the greatest possible effect when delivering a sneak attack.
Or Invokers analyzing the ancient patterns of glyphs, figures, numbers, incantations, and history of great powers, then applying it on the battlefield by summoning those forces into play.
Or Shamans studying the sagas of the ancient powers, of their ancestors, of their heroes, learning their ways and abilities, their mannerisms and requests during summoning, and applying it on the battlefield by calling them forth.
Or Monks studying the great arts of battle passed down through the ages, the theories and manuals of the masters, the pinnacle of a single art, the weavings of an ultimate way, a study of move and counter move, and applying it on the battlefield by executing those maneuvers.
Study is not power source dependent, no more than Innate Ability or Borrowed Power or Hybridization is to any other.
However, combining it with innate ability of strength or agility, and rigorous training to limit break your body and achieve superior power -is-. I don't see where a scientist fits into -Martial- when it's supposed to be about athleticism, weapons training, and surpassing humanoid limits.
As for all the others, I did specify "book study". And "default fluff".
Can you say your Rogue has an encyclopedic knowledge of small weaponry and the anatomy of creatures around the world?* Sure, but the default assumption is not that he learned all that from a library.
*Edit: And as a side note, the Int Rogue build makes me squee a little at the thought of playing Sherlock Holmes as a Rogue.
/snip
However, combining it with innate ability of strength or agility, and rigorous training to limit break your body and achieve superior power -is-. I don't see where a scientist fits into -Martial- when it's supposed to be about athleticism, weapons training, and surpassing humanoid limits.
So tell me, exactly which class would be responsible for bouncing a flask of alchemist fire off of the bugbear's nose such that the splash of the igniting liquid propels the expanding cloud of glass fragments from the shattered container directly into the eye of the hobgoblin standing ten feet away?
And, more importantly, striking that annoying pose and saying "Ahh, basic physics, is there anything you cannot calculate?" Who is the Badass Bookworm?
There's a major difference between worshipping and having a relationship with your deity or philosophy and finding magic within yourself, regardless of origin. Even if there's a divine origin to the magic in your blood, it's still blood magic; it's still a Sorcererer who learns through spells and Arcane experimentation.
I don't really buy that Sorcerers have the monopoly on powers you're born with, or that your body has been infused with; after all are not all Psionic classes born with their powers and were just able to awaken them and I think I remember something about Druid powers developing in children who are born sensitive to the spirit world.
Unless you're talking about physiological power, powers that come from your own biology, but even then you don't have your monopoly; I specifically remember Druid talking about how their bodies are conduits of primal magic.
And even so, thats no fun; why should Sorcerer be the only class that has blood magic?
I bolded the part above, because I think that the origin of the power should dictate what power source it comes from not how it relates to you, how one uses the power should dictate your class. Example:
I get my power from the Gods thus I am Divine, I use this power via my biology thus I am a Godborn
I get my power from the very fabric of the cosmos thus I am Arcane, I use this power via my biology thus I am a Sorcerer
So tell me, exactly which class would be responsible for bouncing a flask of alchemist fire off of the bugbear's nose such that the splash of the igniting liquid propels the expanding cloud of glass fragments from the shattered container directly into the eye of the hobgoblin standing ten feet away?
Any class that takes the Alchemist feat. Maybe add a spell-scarred type multiclass only set of Alchemist powers if you want to get really fancy.
Or an Artificer.
So tell me, exactly which class would be responsible for bouncing a flask of alchemist fire off of the bugbear's nose such that the splash of the igniting liquid propels the expanding cloud of glass fragments from the shattered container directly into the eye of the hobgoblin standing ten feet away?
And, more importantly, striking that annoying pose and saying "Ahh, basic physics, is there anything you cannot calculate?" Who is the Badass Bookworm?
And what does the BadA Bookworm do when he was captured and can escape with nothing more than a sling and a knife ? He is USELESS. A Ranger can do stuff, a Wizard can do stuff, a Psion can do stuff with his mind but he Bookworm. He cries in a corner because his gimmicks where taken away.
Martial Power uses Weapons. It doesn't NEED them. They are just a tool, not your abilities. That's the reason why a Seeker works but Green Arrow doesn't.
So tell me, exactly which class would be responsible for bouncing a flask of alchemist fire off of the bugbear's nose such that the splash of the igniting liquid propels the expanding cloud of glass fragments from the shattered container directly into the eye of the hobgoblin standing ten feet away?
And, more importantly, striking that annoying pose and saying "Ahh, basic physics, is there anything you cannot calculate?" Who is the Badass Bookworm?
And what does the BadA Bookworm do when he was captured and can escape with nothing more than a sling and a knife ? He is USELESS. A Ranger can do stuff, a Wizard can do stuff, a Psion can do stuff with his mind but he Bookworm. He cries in a corner because his gimmicks where taken away.
You'd be amazed what a man can do with a sling and a knife.
Seriously, though, why isn't the same true of anyone else? How can the artificer use Life Tapping Darts if the enemy stole all his darts, or deploy a minion if someone nabbed all his minions? How would a necromancer raise a skeleton if there wasn't anything dead around? How does a bard use vicious mockery against a mindless opponent?
There will always be scenarios where the use of a power doesn't quite make sense. Why is it that Martial concepts automatically fail as a result, whereas all other power sources can handwave it away?
Martial Power uses Weapons. It doesn't NEED them. They are just a tool, not your abilities. That's the reason why a Seeker works but Green Arrow doesn't.
Tactics are a tool. Misdirection and deception are tools. The environment can be a tool. Teamwork can be a tool. Your own fist can be a tool. All of these are given time within the martial source.
Alchemy is a tool. So why can't these play a part in a class?
Am I asking for WotC to drop everything and make a full, level 1-30 alchemist class? No. But given the ability to use alchemy from Thievery and Heal alone, I think it can qualify as a completely mundane tool, thus putting it in the hands of the Martial source. That means that someone, anyone, be it a Rogue, a Warlord, or a Hypothetical New Martial Class Codenamed Bob could have the capacity to use alchemical items to greater heights.
Seriously, though, why isn't the same true of anyone else? How can the artificer use Life Tapping Darts if the enemy stole all his darts, or deploy a minion if someone nabbed all his minions? How would a necromancer raise a skeleton if there wasn't anything dead around? How does a bard use vicious mockery against a mindless opponent?
'cause they use magic to get the job done.
Tactics are a tool. Misdirection and deception are tools. The environment can be a tool. Teamwork can be a tool. Your own fist can be a tool. All of these are given time within the martial source.
Alchemy is a tool. So why can't these play a part in a class?
Because tactics*, misdirection**, deception, the environment, teamwork***, and your fist don't end up costing several hundred gold per use.
It's just not a practical basis for a class.
Am I asking for WotC to drop everything and make a full, level 1-30 alchemist class? No. But given the ability to use alchemy from Thievery and Heal alone, I think it can qualify as a completely mundane tool, thus putting it in the hands of the Martial source. That means that someone, anyone, be it a Rogue, a Warlord, or a Hypothetical New Martial Class Codenamed Bob could have the capacity to use alchemical items to greater heights.
So if you're not asking for a full class, then it sounds like you're asking for the Alchemist Savant, only more and for some reason Martial?
*Unless your tactics are always "Throw money at it!"
**Unless your misdirection always involves getting them to look at money that's over there.
***Unless the rest of your team consists of mercenaries paid out of your pocket.
I like the Shepherd with a staff and a sling mentioned before, and I like the Demigod Hercules idea. My own preference is still for the Friar Tuck archetype: striking and healing with a staff and a keg of ale.
Ale and **** power sources for PH4! Who's with me?
There's a major difference between worshipping and having a relationship with your deity or philosophy and finding magic within yourself, regardless of origin. Even if there's a divine origin to the magic in your blood, it's still blood magic; it's still a Sorcererer who learns through spells and Arcane experimentation.
I don't really buy that Sorcerers have the monopoly on powers you're born with, or that your body has been infused with; after all are not all Psionic classes born with their powers and were just able to awaken them and I think I remember something about Druid powers developing in children who are born sensitive to the spirit world.
Unless you're talking about physiological power, powers that come from your own biology, but even then you don't have your monopoly; I specifically remember Druid talking about how their bodies are conduits of primal magic.
And even so, thats no fun; why should Sorcerer be the only class that has blood magic?
I bolded the part above, because I think that the origin of the power should dictate what power source it comes from not how it relates to you, how one uses the power should dictate your class. Example:
I get my power from the Gods thus I am Divine, I use this power via my biology thus I am a Godborn
I get my power from the very fabric of the cosmos thus I am Arcane, I use this power via my biology thus I am a Sorcerer
Unfortunately, natural logic of your statement dictates that Chaos Sorcerers should be Elemental, not Arcane.
It doesn't matter if it you got your power from the Gods, because you're not worshipping them. The Divine Power source stems from Prayer. Divine Powers are called Prayers. If you're physically divine, are you praying to yourself to get you through?
The fundamental problem comes from how Power Sources are defined. I certainly can see a Divine character becoming a Demigod or Godborn as a PPath or EDest, showing that there is a divine spark within them, so not only does he power stem from worship of their deity, but her deity lives within them as well.
However, the Godborn, as you placed him, has his power come directly from a divine spark within him. He channels the divine blood trickling down through his ancestry from a God. That very relationship disregards Prayer altogether, and simply channels holy power.
That's not Prayer.
On another note, I want to see Goblin or Hobgoblin (or both!) stated up as full pc races. I play in eberron and both these races (goblins moreso) play a very important part, and can be fully heroic. I by no means want a bunch of monstrous races stated up (hence leaving bugbear out). I would imagine we'd get another shadow based race dunno what though since shadar-ki and revenant cover those angles rather well.
Unfortunately, natural logic of your statement dictates that Chaos Sorcerers should be Elemental, not Arcane.
Yes, it does. WotC got it wrong as far as I can tell.
It doesn't matter if it you got your power from the Gods, because you're not worshipping them. The Divine Power source stems from Prayer. Divine Powers are called Prayers. If you're physically divine, are you praying to yourself to get you through?
The fundamental problem comes from how Power Sources are defined. I certainly can see a Divine character becoming a Demigod or Godborn as a PPath or EDest, showing that there is a divine spark within them, so not only does he power stem from worship of their deity, but her deity lives within them as well.
However, the Godborn, as you placed him, has his power come directly from a divine spark within him. He channels the divine blood trickling down through his ancestry from a God. That very relationship disregards Prayer altogether, and simply channels holy power.
That's not Prayer.
Now hold on a second, how exactly is what a Sorcerer does a Spell? You say that a Godborn can't be a Divine character because what they do isn't Prayer, but you think they would be Sorcerers because what they do is cast spells?
If having super powers from magic blood can be considered spellcasting, then having super powers from divine blood is praying.
Also, Invokers don't really pray because the power resides within themselves.
*Unless your tactics are always "Throw money at it!"
If it works for the Final Fantasy Samurai...
Seriously, though. What is the difference between a power that says "Must be wielding a bow", thus requiring arrows in your possession, and one that says "Must be wielding an alchemical item", thus requiring a flask, bomb, or powder in your possession? One being slightly more expensive than the other isn't a sufficient answer, not with the magically expensive ammunition we currently have. If money is an object, just make a very, very basic form of flash powder or acid that has a low market cost akin to a container of arrows.
Regardless.
The major problem with the Godborn discussion is....what does the hypothetical class actually do? While the origin is certainly an interesting twist, what is the mechanical role of the concept within the edition? Is it a warrior type, somehow different from a strength paladin, runepriest, or strength cleric? Does it call down divine force like an invoker or laser cleric? Would it be armored by steel or by divine providence, both of which have been expressed already?
*Unless your tactics are always "Throw money at it!"
If it works for the Final Fantasy Samurai...
Seriously, though. What is the difference between a power that says "Must be wielding a bow", thus requiring arrows in your possession, and one that says "Must be wielding an alchemical item", thus requiring a flask, bomb, or powder in your possession? One being slightly more expensive than the other isn't a sufficient answer, not with the magically expensive ammunition we currently have. If money is an object, just make a very, very basic form of flash powder or acid that has a low market cost akin to a container of arrows.
Regardless.
The major problem with the Godborn discussion is....what does the hypothetical class actually do? While the origin is certainly an interesting twist, what is the mechanical role of the concept within the edition? Is it a warrior type, somehow different from a strength paladin, runepriest, or strength cleric? Does it call down divine force like an invoker or laser cleric? Would it be armored by steel or by divine providence, both of which have been expressed already?
I think it's intended to be lightly/no armor like herculese is often depicted in. Thats what I'd like to see a bruteforce defender with little armor.
The major problem with the Godborn discussion is....what does the hypothetical class actually do? While the origin is certainly an interesting twist, what is the mechanical role of the concept within the edition? Is it a warrior type, somehow different from a strength paladin, runepriest, or strength cleric? Does it call down divine force like an invoker or laser cleric? Would it be armored by steel or by divine providence, both of which have been expressed already?
IMO making something mechanically distinct is a lot more easier than making it thematically distinct, so I don't really think thats something that can really get in the way of making a class concept work.
But I do have some Ideas; I see them as quite different from Paladins in just as much a mechanical way as fluff wise, and if anything they're more closer to a Warden mechanically.
Some key points: Uses Con for attack stat, the Mighty Godborn uses Str as it's secondary, the Adonis Godborn uses Cha for it's secondary. Wears Light Armor, has a AC boosting class feature. Uses Ki focus, has no implement attacks. The Mighty Godborn secondaries in Controller because they're able to do things like thunderclaps, frightening roars, stomp earthquakes and tremors. The Adonis Godborn secondaries in Leader because they focus on taking the heat for those who follow them. I see them maybe having a aura feature that many powers key into.
*Unless your tactics are always "Throw money at it!"
If it works for the Final Fantasy Samurai...
Seriously, though. What is the difference between a power that says "Must be wielding a bow", thus requiring arrows in your possession, and one that says "Must be wielding an alchemical item", thus requiring a flask, bomb, or powder in your possession? One being slightly more expensive than the other isn't a sufficient answer, not with the magically expensive ammunition we currently have. If money is an object, just make a very, very basic form of flash powder or acid that has a low market cost akin to a container of arrows.
Slightly?
The cheapest Alchemist's Fire in the game costs 500 times more than a single arrow. And that's ignoring that arrows cost less if you buy them in bulk, or that the level 1 Alchemist's Fire quickly becomes useless as you need to upgrade in order to hit anything.
Magic Ammo is really just a novelty item for DMs to drop as we already have Magic Bows from which to shoot mundane arrows for similar effect.
And carrying around "a very, very basic form of flash powder" is exactly what Wizards did back in 3.x if they ever wanted to throw a fireball.
Regardless.
The major problem with the Godborn discussion is....what does the hypothetical class actually do? While the origin is certainly an interesting twist, what is the mechanical role of the concept within the edition? Is it a warrior type, somehow different from a strength paladin, runepriest, or strength cleric? Does it call down divine force like an invoker or laser cleric? Would it be armored by steel or by divine providence, both of which have been expressed already?
I agree with this completely.
*Unless your tactics are always "Throw money at it!"
If it works for the Final Fantasy Samurai...
Seriously, though. What is the difference between a power that says "Must be wielding a bow", thus requiring arrows in your possession, and one that says "Must be wielding an alchemical item", thus requiring a flask, bomb, or powder in your possession? One being slightly more expensive than the other isn't a sufficient answer, not with the magically expensive ammunition we currently have. If money is an object, just make a very, very basic form of flash powder or acid that has a low market cost akin to a container of arrows.
Slightly?
The cheapest Alchemist's Fire in the game costs 500 times more than a single arrow. And that's ignoring that arrows cost less if you buy them in bulk, or that the level 1 Alchemist's Fire quickly becomes useless as you need to upgrade in order to hit anything.
Magic Ammo is really just a novelty item for DMs to drop as we already have Magic Bows from which to shoot mundane arrows for similar effect.
And carrying around "a very, very basic form of flash powder" is exactly what Wizards did back in 3.x if they ever wanted to throw a fireball.Regardless.
The major problem with the Godborn discussion is....what does the hypothetical class actually do? While the origin is certainly an interesting twist, what is the mechanical role of the concept within the edition? Is it a warrior type, somehow different from a strength paladin, runepriest, or strength cleric? Does it call down divine force like an invoker or laser cleric? Would it be armored by steel or by divine providence, both of which have been expressed already?
I agree with this completely.
Give them a discount to making the items. And then give them the ability to make higher level items than normal.
Uses Ki focus, has no implement attacks.
I can pretty much guarantee that you will never see a class that does this.
Why on earth would they give a class an implement, but then not give them any implement attacks?
If they're going to be weapons only, they're going to be weapons only. If you want a Ki Focus so you can use five different weapons to equal effect, you can multiclass into Assassin (or Monk) just like a Fighter has to.
If you want a Ki Focus so you can use five different weapons to equal effect, you can multiclass into Assassin (or Monk) just like a Fighter has to.
Or you could just give the class Ki focus...
Hercules didn't really sit around contemplating how his body and soul interacted, he went out and did things. Same with Achilles and Adonis.
And I also have a problem with the idea of a class that defines itself as the son of a god, because I think that the idea of a divine child shouldn't be restricted to one class. For example:
- A dragon sorcerer, who believed he had a draconic bloodline, learns that he is actually the son of Bahamut.
- An Invoker of Ioun learns that the reason he was able to so easily control the ebb and flow of the power he works with is because he can trace his lineage to Ioun herself.
- Kord's son on the material plane is blessed with a lot of strength and constitution, and seems to get along with thunder and lightning spirits for reasons he can't understand. It's for these reasons that he is a Storm Warden of unmatched power.
I could go on, but I won't.
Thing is, I don't really think that "I'm the son of God" and "I am meditating on my inner strength" really go together on an archetypal level.
Hercules didn't really sit around contemplating how his body and soul interacted, he went out and did things. Same with Achilles and Adonis.
And I also have a problem with the idea of a class that defines itself as the son of a god, because I think that the idea of a divine child shouldn't be restricted to one class. For example:
- A dragon sorcerer, who believed he had a draconic bloodline, learns that he is actually the son of Bahamut.
- An Invoker of Ioun learns that the reason he was able to so easily control the ebb and flow of the power he works with is because he can trace his lineage to Ioun herself.
- Kord's son on the material plane is blessed with a lot of strength and constitution, and seems to get along with thunder and lightning spirits for reasons he can't understand. It's for these reasons that he is a Storm Warden of unmatched power.
I could go on, but I won't.
Agree.
Unfortunately, natural logic of your statement dictates that Chaos Sorcerers should be Elemental, not Arcane.
Yes, it does. WotC got it wrong as far as I can tell.It doesn't matter if it you got your power from the Gods, because you're not worshipping them. The Divine Power source stems from Prayer. Divine Powers are called Prayers. If you're physically divine, are you praying to yourself to get you through?
The fundamental problem comes from how Power Sources are defined. I certainly can see a Divine character becoming a Demigod or Godborn as a PPath or EDest, showing that there is a divine spark within them, so not only does he power stem from worship of their deity, but her deity lives within them as well.
However, the Godborn, as you placed him, has his power come directly from a divine spark within him. He channels the divine blood trickling down through his ancestry from a God. That very relationship disregards Prayer altogether, and simply channels holy power.
That's not Prayer.
Now hold on a second, how exactly is what a Sorcerer does a Spell? You say that a Godborn can't be a Divine character because what they do isn't Prayer, but you think they would be Sorcerers because what they do is cast spells?
If having super powers from magic blood can be considered spellcasting, then having super powers from divine blood is praying.
Also, Invokers don't really pray because the power resides within themselves.
Invokers -do- pray. It says so both in PH2 and in DP. Their relationship with their deity is a very personal one; they prey on their own, without the restrictions that come with religious organisations. Sure, a few carry a divine shard because they encountered their deity and were graced with it, and some might even be a descendant of a deity, but that sort of fluff the kind that was made to tie into PPaths and EDests. The class itself deals with Prayers.
Prayers are talked about in Divine Power as usually being made through verbal offerings and requests to one's deity. The Adept of Whispers PPath shows the full extent of this, where they keep their words for only when they need it. There's a very different feel between a Prayer and Spell.
Spells, from what I can gleam from AP and other sources, are an academic study of sorts. There's a sidebar in AP about how Wizard spells in particular invoke the recitation of complex arcane formulaes, mystic symbols and such, performing gestures with your implement, as if you were drawing the runic equation. Artificer spells, similarly, seem to take little components, and adapt natural resources in arcane formuale to create their spells. Warlocks, rather than learn the spells themselves, sought out the knowledge to contact great wielders of eldritch power, and channel -their- arcane powers. Swordmages use their sword as if it was a wand, and being that a lot of runic powers exist for the class, as well as energy-type ones, find the formulae to bind onto their spellblades. Bards mix the learning with natural talent, and using music and art to perform their spells.
Sorcerers in particular seem to scoff at the studious way other Arcane characters approach this, however, they experiment with their natural talents. They're still spellcasting. Sorcerers are discussed as being experimentative in their learning. They have natural talents, and they're playing around with them, seeing what they can do. That seems to fit the bill.
Mcnancy, I think you've a bit misunderstood what makes you a wielder of a Power Source. It has nothing to do with the origin of that power. It has -everything- to do with how you approach it. Martial Characters achieve their power by bringing together three aspects of training – natural bodily talent, learned skill from intense, rigorous training, and the determination to act – in an instant, overcoming bodily limitations. Divine characters, as we have seen, do not need even an actual deity to be divine; it's about their prayers, philosophy, and belief. Arcane characters draw on studying as mentioned above. Primal character draw on their reverence of spirits – ancestors, animals, nature, etc. Psionic characters, from what I can gleam thus far, draw their power from intense discipline and dedicated zen-type learning from mentors, training their mind to overcome the limitations of the body and release powers that the body couldn't dream of wielding on its own. Shadow -might- draw from trading a part of yourself for something of Shadow, we shall see. Elemental will have it's own themes, and trust me, they will be -very- different from the Chaos Sorcerer.
That siad, what I'm trying to get all this here with is that: (A) the Godborn can be wrapped into the Sorcerer, and doesn't need to take up a new class position in PH4, (B) there are other Divine concepts that are desirable for a future Player's Handbook, like the Archivist or the Shepherd, and (C) we should analyse very carefully every class concept proposed before saying that it warrants a new class, even if the idea is in a different power source. As much as I hate to compare the degrading opinions others have made about certain Psionic classes, Godborn seems to me like Divine X.
…
…
*Comes back like Captain Hammer*
(The X is the Sorcerer.)
Thing is, I don't really think that "I'm the son of God" and "I am meditating on my inner strength" really go together on an archetypal level.
Hercules didn't really sit around contemplating how his body and soul interacted, he went out and did things. Same with Achilles and Adonis.
I agree, thats why the Godborn don't do any meditating or contemplating. Just like how the Sorcerer doesn't study magic or do incantations
And I also have a problem with the idea of a class that defines itself as the son of a god, because I think that the idea of a divine child shouldn't be restricted to one class. For example:
- A dragon sorcerer, who believed he had a draconic bloodline, learns that he is actually the son of Bahamut.
- An Invoker of Ioun learns that the reason he was able to so easily control the ebb and flow of the power he works with is because he can trace his lineage to Ioun herself.
- Kord's son on the material plane is blessed with a lot of strength and constitution, and seems to get along with thunder and lightning spirits for reasons he can't understand. It's for these reasons that he is a Storm Warden of unmatched power.
Those are fine character concepts, and my goal is not to highjack those concepts with this class; but I would consider those to be examples of reflavoring, being the son of Kord and tapping into that divine blood really has very little to do with being a Warden or Primal magic for that matter.
I totally agree, it is in no way my intention to "restrict" anything with this class.
Mcnancy, I think you've a bit misunderstood what makes you a wielder of a Power Source. It has nothing to do with the origin of that power. It has -everything- to do with how you approach it. Martial Characters achieve their power by bringing together three aspects of training – natural bodily talent, learned skill from intense, rigorous training, and the determination to act – in an instant, overcoming bodily limitations. Divine characters, as we have seen, do not need even an actual deity to be divine; it's about their prayers, philosophy, and belief. Arcane characters draw on studying as mentioned above. Primal character draw on their reverence of spirits – ancestors, animals, nature, etc. Psionic characters, from what I can gleam thus far, draw their power from intense discipline and dedicated zen-type learning from mentors, training their mind to overcome the limitations of the body and release powers that the body couldn't dream of wielding on its own. Shadow -might- draw from trading a part of yourself for something of Shadow, we shall see. Elemental will have it's own themes, and trust me, they will be -very- different from the Chaos Sorcerer.
That's a whole lot of nonsense from my point of view; It sounds to me like you're working just a little to hard to have that make sense. If things really had to work like that then there would be no difference between Martial and Psionic because basically you said the same thing for both of them.
That whole thing about how Sorcerers cast spells sounds like a total handwave, as though by using the word "experiment" that some how makes it spell casting. what does that even mean, experiments with their power? do they run tests on themselves? do they inject themselves with arcane potions to make their powers stronger. where exactly does spell casting come into the picture?
I think you're grasping at something thats not there. And I'm guessing the only reason why powere from different sources are called different things is because religious people used complain about how Clerics and Paladins were "spell casters" but thats a whole other topic.
Mcnancy, I think you've a bit misunderstood what makes you a wielder of a Power Source. It has nothing to do with the origin of that power. It has -everything- to do with how you approach it. Martial Characters achieve their power by bringing together three aspects of training – natural bodily talent, learned skill from intense, rigorous training, and the determination to act – in an instant, overcoming bodily limitations. Divine characters, as we have seen, do not need even an actual deity to be divine; it's about their prayers, philosophy, and belief. Arcane characters draw on studying as mentioned above. Primal character draw on their reverence of spirits – ancestors, animals, nature, etc. Psionic characters, from what I can gleam thus far, draw their power from intense discipline and dedicated zen-type learning from mentors, training their mind to overcome the limitations of the body and release powers that the body couldn't dream of wielding on its own. Shadow -might- draw from trading a part of yourself for something of Shadow, we shall see. Elemental will have it's own themes, and trust me, they will be -very- different from the Chaos Sorcerer.
That's a whole lot of nonsense from my point of view; It sounds to me like you're working just a little to hard to have that make sense. If things really had to work like that then there would be no difference between Martial and Psionic because basically you said the same thing for both of them.
That whole thing about how Sorcerers cast spells sounds like a total handwave, as though by using the word "experiment" that some how makes it spell casting. what does that even mean, experiments with their power? do they run tests on themselves? do they inject themselves with arcane potions to make their powers stronger. where exactly does spell casting come into the picture?
I think you're grasping at something thats not there. And I'm guessing the only reason why powere from different sources are called different things is because religious people used complain about how Clerics and Paladins were "spell casters" but thats a whole other topic.
I noticed the similarity in what I said between Martial and Psionic. The thing is, Psionic isn't clarified yet, but I have been assuming it's like Martial, only mind over matter, rather than overcoming the raw limitations of the body. Martial is like when you get an adrenaline rush and can lift a car to save your daughter, Psionic would be utilising the 90% of your brain that you never use (both of which are fallacious statements, and based on misconceptions, but are archetypal tropes, and the Martial one is confirmed by MP2).
Sorcerers explicately were said to experiment. Also listen (or read) this, straight from the PH2: "If the diverse lot of sorcerers has one quality in common, it's a high opinion of themselves. Many sorcerers dream of becoming gods one day, and the majority find it hard to supplicate any being more powerful than themselves."
Spell casting comes into the way you alter the cosmos, play with the laws of physics. Sorcerers do this through innate, blood-driven powers that they inherited or somehow gained at somepoint. To give you a sense of diversity amongst Sorcerers, listen (or again, read) this, from AP:
"The singed and scarred youth holding forth on chaotic structures in the tavern, the robed dragonborn ascetic chaning a low song of blood and wings, the halfling whose hiar bristles with static charge while standing on the hilltop as the storm blows in, the tiefling astronomer who reverse the sky and seasons – all of these individuals might well be sorcerers. A sorcerer is a character whose essentially enthusiastic grasp on her powers is certain to be noticed in small towns and teeming metropolises alike."
In any case, I don't see why you have to say my power source explenations are nonsense when I'm deriving the cases for them directly from explenations in the Player's Handbooks, the X Power books, and the Setting Player Guides, and Dragon Magazine.
Thing is, I don't really think that "I'm the son of God" and "I am meditating on my inner strength" really go together on an archetypal level.
Hercules didn't really sit around contemplating how his body and soul interacted, he went out and did things. Same with Achilles and Adonis.
And I also have a problem with the idea of a class that defines itself as the son of a god, because I think that the idea of a divine child shouldn't be restricted to one class. For example:
- A dragon sorcerer, who believed he had a draconic bloodline, learns that he is actually the son of Bahamut.
- An Invoker of Ioun learns that the reason he was able to so easily control the ebb and flow of the power he works with is because he can trace his lineage to Ioun herself.
- Kord's son on the material plane is blessed with a lot of strength and constitution, and seems to get along with thunder and lightning spirits for reasons he can't understand. It's for these reasons that he is a Storm Warden of unmatched power.
I could go on, but I won't.
Quoted for truth. +1
Spell casting comes into the way you alter the cosmos, play with the laws of physics.
See, to me that's talking about where the power comes from, the cosmos and the laws of physics are what Arcane is, and because Sorcerers are tapped into it they're Arcane.
Your still not saying what it is they're doing.
Here's how Sorcerers work; they do indeed experiment, but I think that is because it specifically is not spellcasting, there is no manual they can read, and thus they have to learn how to do it on their own, Spiderman had to learn how to not stick to everything he touched and i'm sure that took some trial and error, his powers are innate, blood-driven powers that one has to learn how to use like people having to learn how to flex a certain muscle, because their is universal command sequence that can be used to regain use of one's legs. Thats it, there is no mysticism, no user manual, no command sequence, no magic word to open the door, just a sign that says "push"; and magic words is pretty much what casting spells is.
In any case, I don't see why you have to say my power source explenations are nonsense when I'm deriving the cases for them directly from explenations in the Player's Handbooks, the X Power books, and the Setting Player Guides, and Dragon Magazine.
Because I'm reading the same things you are and I'm not seeing how you're getting to your conclusion at all.
If praying is asking a god to do something for you, then is it really that far of a leap for a god to give you the power to do something yourself?
Godchild is all well and good, but different gods would beget completely different demigods. A class is not the way to do this, because a class has a particular focus, both from attributes, role, and style. The gods are too diverse to cram into a single role like Beefstick Basher.
Arcane is such a catch all, and it includes what can be concluded as the mundane sciences that it rules out such classes, cause then they'd be arcane. I really do hate that. Basically following something like simple chemistry, biology, physics and engineering makes you what amounts to be an arcane class; especially if they make battle ready powers. You can't have a scientist or researcher class cause then it's Arcane, even if they have really nothing to do with magic except in that it doesn't involve an actual weapon but they still do damage somehow.
So really, until they decide to seriously narrow down Arcane or somehow justify something called a Tech Source, anything that basically behaves with science and engineering is Arcane. It's a real pain the butt to work Arcane out in a more Sci-fi, hard science campaign without either a complete re-fluff or the complete tossing out of the source.
This issue with the Martial Controller and the idea of an Alchemist class, is that... the Artificer sort of does that. That's the real issue, it's Arcane's fault.
Arcane is such a catch all, and it includes what can be concluded as the mundane sciences that it rules out such classes, cause then they'd be arcane. I really do hate that. Basically following something like simple chemistry, biology, physics and engineering makes you what amounts to be an arcane class; especially if they make battle ready powers. You can't have a scientist or researcher class cause then it's Arcane, even if they have really nothing to do with magic except in that it doesn't involve an actual weapon but they still do damage somehow.
So really, until they decide to seriously narrow down Arcane or somehow justify something called a Tech Source, anything that basically behaves with science and engineering is Arcane. It's a real pain the butt to work Arcane out in a more Sci-fi, hard science campaign without either a complete re-fluff or the complete tossing out of the source.
That's the thing though: Arcane Power is the Power Source of Science. Magic A is Magic A. Arcane characters are scientists, artists, and scholars. They are people who get their power from going to school and learning. That's quite different from any other power source. Even Psionic, which has a lot of cerebral power, is not about that – the most would be a mountain mystic mentor in the vein of Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Scientists try to explain the laws of the universe and how and why things do what they do. That's what we call Arcane characters in D&D.
The problem with it really is that the scope of the classes under the power sources get very... inexplicable in that scenario. Wizards... find and dandy -> Battle Researchers, Artificers -> Insane engineers... but what about bards? or Warlocks (I could see Warlocks as someone with a very good connection to someone who makes lots of high tech weapons) or Sorcerors? Or really Swordmage? Do I just toss out those classes?
That's why I hate the Arcane power source. It's very difficult to translate it into a campaign when there's a clear barrier between science and magic (and that's a good chunk of my current campaign world).
Maybe I'm not really looking at playing DnD at the point...
This issue with the Martial Controller and the idea of an Alchemist class, is that... the Artificer sort of does that. That's the real issue, it's Arcane's fault.
Arcane is such a catch all, and it includes what can be concluded as the mundane sciences that it rules out such classes, cause then they'd be arcane. I really do hate that. Basically following something like simple chemistry, biology, physics and engineering makes you what amounts to be an arcane class; especially if they make battle ready powers. You can't have a scientist or researcher class cause then it's Arcane, even if they have really nothing to do with magic except in that it doesn't involve an actual weapon but they still do damage somehow.
So really, until they decide to seriously narrow down Arcane or somehow justify something called a Tech Source, anything that basically behaves with science and engineering is Arcane. It's a real pain the butt to work Arcane out in a more Sci-fi, hard science campaign without either a complete re-fluff or the complete tossing out of the source.
That's the thing though: Arcane Power is the Power Source of Science. Magic A is Magic A. Arcane characters are scientists, artists, and scholars. They are people who get their power from going to school and learning. That's quite different from any other power source. Even Psionic, which has a lot of cerebral power, is not about that – the most would be a mountain mystic mentor in the vein of Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Scientists try to explain the laws of the universe and how and why things do what they do. That's what we call Arcane characters in D&D.
I still take issue with that. No matter how much book learning an arcane character has, their power ultimately comes from manipulating arcane energy. I am not an arcane character because I'm an accountant.
Note: "real" does not talk about the "the real" world, but more as the game world and the simple rules that govern the physics there. If it is to be believed that that world more or less behaves like ours, then chemistry, most biology and and certainly the macro physics of that would should still work. So a chemist could make alchemical products and workable other battle ready items without actually manipulating the "arcane" forces. Hell, how about a doctor? or Pharmacist (Herbalist)?
...but you are also not living in a magical world where knowledge of numbers can directly change reality around you. Arcane characters, in D&D, are. A wizard just knows the right symbols. He knows the right knowledge. With that knowledge he can manipulate arcane power. Bards know the right song. Alchemists know the right materials. Swordmages know the right technique. All of them operate through knowledge. So, I can see how the "arcane power source characters are the scientists of the D&D world" analogy works. That does really seem to make sorcerers work with the wrong power source though. As has been said in this thread, they really don't seem to fit into that framework. What does a sorcerer know? A sorcerer is born into their magic. They don't seem to be like a scientist at all...
You and I are usually on similar tracks Dave, but I gotta disagree. Not every D&D character that knows algebra is an arcane character. It's not the knowledge of numbers that makes the magic, it's the application.
But what's the difference between a Chemist/Herbalist who doesn't have anything to do with Arcane powers, but let's say can whip up a concoction that could act like bull's strength? Or those already pesky healing poultices? I mean I hate to interject real world logic into DnD, but I'm sure there could easily be an order of something that could do just that... take the time to note, experiment and conclude with significant results the effects of plants and other substances on the bodies of the living. They're not magical (save for in the case that the plant itself is magical)...
but like an accountant who does study and the like... they're still lumped in that arcane source except they have nothing to do with the arcane. An accountant doesn't seem to summon numbers and large figures and invoice conundrums to defeat his foes really... though that in itself would be awesome.
But I digress. (seriously best segue line ever!) I don't really have a wish list for PHB4 or even speculations. The R&D on the game seems to be constantly in flux and what they promised at one point isn't anything remotely what they're delivering. Not that that's a bad thing really. Look at Ki and Shadow. I guess all I would really want are more controllers that aren't arcane... and new and interesting take on action currency. Like what they did with full disciplines, or even the augment at-wills. Something that could play completely counter culture with other classes, but still work perfectly in the rules of 4e without creating new subsystems or tacking too much more on numbers tracking. Or interesting uses of not often used actions like the battlemind's reliance on OA and IR. Just something interesting to explore.
You and I are usually on similar tracks Dave, but I gotta disagree. Not every D&D character that knows algebra is an arcane character. It's not the knowledge of numbers that makes the magic, it's the application.
You mean like how anyone can train in Arcana, but only Arcane classes actually do stuff with it?
You can be an Accountant in D&D all you want. But that has nothing to do with your class.
You and I are usually on similar tracks Dave, but I gotta disagree. Not every D&D character that knows algebra is an arcane character. It's not the knowledge of numbers that makes the magic, it's the application.
I certainly see your point of view. I'm not saying you are wrong! But from a different perspective, in this case application seems to only be knowledge of how to apply numbers to shape reality. So, simple knowledge of numbers isn't enough. You need the right type of knowledge. Simple knowledge of swordsmanship turns you into a fighter. Knowledge of the right type of swordsmanship turns you into a swordmage. Simple knowledge of poultices, metals, and the like, and you have the Alchemist feat. The right type of knowledge of poultices, metals, and the like, and you are a member of the Artificer class. And so on and so forth. But, doesn't that just make the Arcane Power Source classes the PhD's in their field? That is to say, aren't members of those classes those who don't only have knowledge, but extensive training in the "right application" of that knowledge? And viewed this way, aren't they still the "scientists" (or perhaps more accurately described the academics) of the D&D world?
Okay. Enough on that.
What do you mean, look at Shadow and Ki? Ki is dead, but Shadow is very much alive.
As much as I hate to compare the degrading opinions others have made about certain Psionic classes, Godborn seems to me like Divine X.
…
…
*Comes back like Captain Hammer*
(The X is the Sorcerer.)
You, sir, almost made me waste some perfectly good tea this morning. Like Captain Hammer indeed.
I'm more on the wait and see and be possibly surprised route.
What does a sorcerer know? A sorcerer is born into their magic. They don't seem to be like a scientist at all...
To continue the arcana is science in D&D analogy.
The sorcerer is the natural genius. The guy who never graduated high-school, but working out of his basement/garage manages to invent something so revolutionary that it changes the way people live their lives the world over. No one ever taught him the scientific principles that form the foundation of his invention, he simply always had an intuitive understanding of how to do it.
You and I are usually on similar tracks Dave, but I gotta disagree. Not every D&D character that knows algebra is an arcane character. It's not the knowledge of numbers that makes the magic, it's the application.
I certainly see your point of view. I'm not saying you are wrong! But from a different perspective, in this case application seems to only be knowledge of how to apply numbers to shape reality. So, simple knowledge of numbers isn't enough. You need the right type of knowledge. Simple knowledge of swordsmanship turns you into a fighter. Knowledge of the right type of swordsmanship turns you into a swordmage. Simple knowledge of poultices, metals, and the like, and you have the Alchemist feat. The right type of knowledge of poultices, metals, and the like, and you are a member of the Artificer class. And so on and so forth. But, doesn't that just make the Arcane Power Source classes the PhD's in their field? That is to say, aren't members of those classes those who don't only have knowledge, but extensive training in the "right application" of that knowledge? And viewed this way, aren't they still the "scientists" (or perhaps more accurately described the academics) of the D&D world?
I don't see it that way. It's not the level of knowledge about fighing that makes a swordsman into a swordmage. If that were the case, then surely paragon or epic fighters would end up being skilled enough with blades to have arcane abilities without dabbling in other classes. It is the actual manipulation of arcane energy that constitues classification in the arcane power source.
The same is true with divine. You can be a fire and brimstone street preacher that rallies your allies and demoralizes your foes; but until you actually call down divine power to work a "miracle" then you're not a divine character.
On the topic of Godborn, It seems to me that people have completley misunderstood what I'm going for with this class; Godborn are not gods, nor are they Demigods in the D&D sense of the word, they're people who were created by a god via childbirth or maybe they sculpted you out of clay or something. The class has nothing to do with being a god.
Being a Demigod and being a Godborn are two different things.
If in your setting, being the child of a god automatically make you one too, then thats fine; but in the default D&D setting it has to do more with people believing in you and what you represent more so than genetics. I find the idea of godhood being something you can propagate to be very silly.
On the Topic of science, I don't thing that in D&D theres supposed to be any IRL science; it's a fantasy world and thus it follows a different set of rules and things are put together differently, they may look the same and act the same, but they're apart of something bigger and more wondrous. For example, I know that in D&D they use the ancient concept of the four elements as their version of atoms and molecules.
It is the actual manipulation of arcane energy that constitues classification in the arcane power source.
QFT
On the topic of Godborn, It seems to me that people have completley misunderstood what I'm going for with this class; Godborn are not gods, nor are they Demigods in the D&D sense of the word, they're people who were created by a god via childbirth or maybe they sculpted you out of clay or something. The class has nothing to do with being a god.
And again, the major problem with this is that it isn't a class, it's an origin.
To compare, let's take the Sorcerer again. Technically, sorcerer is full of flavor that implies bloodline; a dragon did the nasty with your great-grandpa, the cosmos played a part in your birth, etc. But the mechanics of the class are unique; tied enough to their origin that it makes sense (chaotic, impulsive, granting empowered physical prowess, etc) but still viable within the game as a stand-alone, that being the BlasterCaster role of artillery striker. I could play a warmage as a sorcerer who was trained, instructed, and developed into his talents just as easily as I could play one born into his abilities.
Godborn, however, is just an origin, and what you have presented doesn't imply a mechanical niche. I could have a godborn of Kord who runs around with stormlike powers and incredible might, smashing and bashing, projecting an aura of divine wrath and sometimes transforming himself into an avatar of strength. Mechanically, I play a Warden. I could play a godborn of Pelor who is a literal fountain of light, brilliance lancing forth from beneath the skin upon command, searing all who stand before the will of the heavens. Mechanically, I play an Invoker. I could play a godborn of Zehir who is an elusive serpent of sinister shadow, slipping soundlessly seeking silent slaughter. Mechanically, I play an assassin. All have the origin of being crafted by a god, and all fulfill it by incarnating the god's themes in their powers and flavor. What they don't do, however, is justify a new class, because a class requires mechanical basis just as much as it requires a good theme with which it can inspire players.
A class needs BOTH thematic and mechanical justification. If it is only a theme, without a decent place in the mechanisms of the game to back it up, it would be a waste of space, because reflavoring can accomplish the same purpose. If it lacks enough thematics to justify itself, it needs a serious going-over with a brush to change it into an evocative form, or worse yet, if the theme is far too close to another class, it will be percieved as copycat. That's why we don't have a Favored Soul as a base class; it was too close to the cleric, just as a Samurai is too much like a fighter.
If it is only a theme, without a decent place in the mechanisms of the game to back it up, it would be a waste of space, because reflavoring can accomplish the same purpose.
There is no amount of mechanics that con overcome that though, I could reflavor the classes we have now to make any class; Necromancer, Hexblade any of them.
We don't need any new mechanics to make the characters we want and we don't sure as heck don't need new fluff because we can make all that up.
I just want to make a class that inspires people, the way classes like Warlord and Avenger do.
And again, the major problem with this is that it isn't a class, it's an origin.
Every class is just an origin, thats all they are suppose to be ultimately; the races, classes power sources, all the things in those books are just tools to help people tell a story with interesting characters.
There are no grids.
If it is only a theme, without a decent place in the mechanisms of the game to back it up, it would be a waste of space, because reflavoring can accomplish the same purpose.
There is no amount of mechanics that con overcome that though, I could reflavor the classes we have now to make any class; Necromancer, Hexblade any of them.
We don't need any new mechanics to make the characters we want and we don't sure as heck don't need new fluff because we can make all that up.
I just want to make a class that inspires people, the way classes like Warlord and Avenger do.And again, the major problem with this is that it isn't a class, it's an origin.
Every class is just an origin, thats all they are suppose to be ultimately; the races, classes power sources, all the things in those books are just tools to help people tell a story with interesting characters.
There are no grids.
Except that classes -aren't- origins. They are broad concepts that encaptulate a number of archetypes. A build is ultimately more of an origin – how you go about that class' mechanics. You can't make a class that is just one archetype, and then have multiple mechanical iterations of it – each build needs it's own unique take on a more general, mechanical class that may have one overarching theme.
As a friend unfamiliar with D&D but familiar with other RPGs said to me as I explained 4e: "So you don't just have classes, you have classes within classes!"
That's how it should be. Builds are somewhat more specific concepts. Godborn, as you described it is not a class, it's a build.
(I really don't mean to sound so angry, Mcnancy, I'm not. Please don't take it the wrong way. I just want the concept to be tenable, and I don't see it being a tenable concept as it's own class).
Except that classes -aren't- origins. They are broad concepts that encaptulate a number of archetypes. A build is ultimately more of an origin – how you go about that class' mechanics. You can't make a class that is just one archetype, and then have multiple mechanical iterations of it – each build needs it's own unique take on a more general, mechanical class that may have one overarching theme.
As a friend unfamiliar with D&D but familiar with other RPGs said to me as I explained 4e: "So you don't just have classes, you have classes within classes!"
That's how it should be. Builds are somewhat more specific concepts. Godborn, as you described it is not a class, it's a build.
(I really don't mean to sound so angry, Mcnancy, I'm not. Please don't take it the wrong way. I just want the concept to be tenable, and I don't see it being a tenable concept as it's own class).
No, actually I think you have a good point; I was thinking the class was a little specific myself.
And I realize that there is more to a class than a origin story, I just don't think this class is any less of class than the others are and it's not really anymore of an origin than the others.
I have thought about expanding the class by incorporating other similar archetypes like racial paragons from 3.5, like a universal class for that stuff
Every class is just an origin, thats all they are suppose to be ultimately; the races, classes power sources, all the things in those books are just tools to help people tell a story with interesting characters.
Classes are far more than origins. They are What You Do And How You Do It. Rogues do it from behind. Wardens do it with a whole lot of people at once. Fighters do it long and hard and fast. Wizards do it through direct focus on the NADs. Avengers do it all alone. Clerics do it as missionaries. Bards do it with pretty words and inspiring vigor. Shamans do it with their ancestors looking over their shoulder. Barbarians do it screaming. Psions do it directly into your mind. Rangers do it with their an....you get the idea. Classes describe how one does what he does, the mechanics of combat and utility abilities that are bound together by a theme.
So describing something like a Godborn requires one to cite not only their origin and flavor, but how those translate into unique mechanical aspects the game does not sufficiently have already. There are distinct reasons for, say, a Necromancer, because an offensive caster who can summon at will is not currently possible throughout all levels. Merely stating that a theme would be a nifty origin, therefore, is insufficient if it cannot be backed up by a unique placement within the game.
Now, the Godborn origin itself has merit, but one must examine how it would be created. So far, there hasn't been much to justify a complete class, but you could, for example, create it as a new build for the Paladin; grant Ki focus proficiency in exchange for some class feature, have a lot of Con-based riders on the powers, etc. This would not only provide the origin a place in the game, but would flesh out the paladin itself, implying that some warriors of the faith are chosen, and some are born.
I think of Gilman in H. P. Lovecraft's Dreams in the Witch-House, who, through the study of higher-dimensional geometry, discovered how to create a shortcut through spacetime.
Also, I thoroughly disagree with the notion that the concept could be covered by a sorcerer build. Arcane has already come dangerously close to invalidating the elemental power source, and to a lesser degree shadow as well. We don't need to have it go and start treading on the divine (warlocks only get away with it because devils are divine outcasts). Even if I were okay with the concept of a divine-blooded sorcerer, the mechanics are all wrong. As I've seen it described in other threads the Godborn is more like of a divine barbarian in one build and a divine bard in the other, and no I don't think that means it should just be build for those classes, as it would then lose the ability to mix aspects of both (except with multiclassing).
Wizards aren't accountants, they're alchemists. Using advanced mathematics to uncover the secrets of the universe... discovering that moving your hands just so while chanting this precise phrase at that exact harmonic frequency disrupts the probability wave and lets you pluck the desired effect out.
I think of Gilman in H. P. Lovecraft's Dreams in the Witch-House, who, through the study of higher-dimensional geometry, discovered how to create a shortcut through spacetime.
By that definition, wizards are not alchemists; they are philosophers. They look beyond the physical world (which is governed by normal science) to the metaphysical world where reality can be suspended, displaced, or altered by metaphysical (arcane) energies.
Just a chime in, I like the concept of Godborn, they wouldn't be my first choice for next divine class but I'd gladly have them over Runepriest. Personally, I think most of y'all are being too picky about what is and what isn't a valid class concept. Just because it would be a class whose main shtick is "daddy was a god" would not invalidate the possible of still using that origin for any other class. Likewise, the warlock shouldn't have a monopoly gaining power though deals with a mystical patron, it's just the default fluff ment to get the old mental gears a grind'n.
Also, I thoroughly disagree with the notion that the concept could be covered by a sorcerer build. Arcane has already come dangerously close to invalidating the elemental power source, and to a lesser degree shadow as well. We don't need to have it go and start treading on the divine (warlocks only get away with it because devils are divine outcasts). Even if I were okay with the concept of a divine-blooded sorcerer, the mechanics are all wrong. As I've seen it described in other threads the Godborn is more like of a divine barbarian in one build and a divine bard in the other, and no I don't think that means it should just be build for those classes, as it would then lose the ability to mix aspects of both (except with multiclassing).
That's the thing. Arcane has done -nothing- to invalidate other Power Sources. That is all in your mind. Especially since we -don't know what Elemental is going to be about.-
The damage type and background of a build does not make the source; the way you use your powers does.
Wizards aren't accountants, they're alchemists. Using advanced mathematics to uncover the secrets of the universe... discovering that moving your hands just so while chanting this precise phrase at that exact harmonic frequency disrupts the probability wave and lets you pluck the desired effect out.
I think of Gilman in H. P. Lovecraft's Dreams in the Witch-House, who, through the study of higher-dimensional geometry, discovered how to create a shortcut through spacetime.
By that definition, wizards are not alchemists; they are philosophers. They look beyond the physical world (which is governed by normal science) to the metaphysical world where reality can be suspended, displaced, or altered by metaphysical (arcane) energies.
That's fine too.
The damage type and background of a build does not make the source; the way you use your powers does.
You're absolutely correct that damage type does NOT equal power source. However, you're wrong when you say the power source is dictated by HOW you use your powers. Power source is WHERE your powers originate from. How you use them is what determines ROLE.
The Godborn is a divine concept because the divine power source is defined as power of/from the gods. Being a half-god harnessing the power of your own divine spark puts a different twist on the power source than the more typical background of divine servant shared by most divine classes, but it is still power of/from the gods.
The damage type and background of a build does not make the source; the way you use your powers does.
You're absolutely correct that damage type does NOT equal power source. However, you're wrong when you say the power source is dictated by HOW you use your powers. Power source is WHERE your powers originate from. How you use them is what determines ROLE.
The Godborn is a divine concept because the divine power source is defined as power of/from the gods. Being a half-god harnessing the power of your own divine spark puts a different twist on the power source than the more typical background of divine servant shared by most divine classes, but it is still power of/from the gods.
The problem is that the Divine Power source isn't defined by getting your power from Gods; it's defined by Praying to the Gods for power, whether through the structure of organised religion or through personal prayer (Invoker).
What you're describing is not prayer, but channeling inner power, which, while divine in origin, is not divine in power source.
...but you are also not living in a magical world where knowledge of numbers can directly change reality around you. Arcane characters, in D&D, do. A wizard just knows the right symbols. He knows the right knowledge. With that knowledge he can manipulate arcane power. Bards know the right song. Alchemists know the right materials. Swordmages know the right technique. All of them operate through knowledge. So, I can see how the "arcane power source characters are the scientists of the D&D world" analogy works. That does really seem to make sorcerers work with the wrong power source though. As has been said in this thread, they really don't seem to fit into that framework. What does a sorcerer know? A sorcerer is born into their magic. They don't seem to be like a scientist at all...
As a science major, I'll quote a professor: "the genius approach." It's incredibly rare, but (even with science) there are a rare few people who just have an intuitive knack for it and don't need the same level of discipline and training. I suppose it's a little different from the sorcerer in that there's still some training, but the key concept is "prodigy." I suppose another way to say it is to compare to House or Sherlock Holmes. They don't need to hit the books like House's assistants do. They just make connections. Although we'd call that intelligence and not charisma, so sorcerer seems a poor fit, there's an intuitive nature that, say, wizards, don't have. As my prof explained in the context of science, school teaches non-geniuses a way to get similar results by a more organized, disciplined approach. The disciplined, studied types go through formal logic of "if A, then B, if not A, not B but maybe C, ergo...." while a genius reaches the same conclusion without actively thinking through the logic. And that's a sorcerer - they have the know-how, but they reach it so intuitively that it's hard for them to explain how they know it.
EDIT: Ninja'd
What does a sorcerer know? A sorcerer is born into their magic. They don't seem to be like a scientist at all...
To continue the arcana is science in D&D analogy.
The sorcerer is the natural genius. The guy who never graduated high-school, but working out of his basement/garage manages to invent something so revolutionary that it changes the way people live their lives the world over. No one ever taught him the scientific principles that form the foundation of his invention, he simply always had an intuitive understanding of how to do it.
The problem is that the Divine Power source isn't defined by getting your power from Gods; it's defined by Praying to the Gods for power, whether through the structure of organised religion or through personal prayer (Invoker).
What you're describing is not prayer, but channeling inner power, which, while divine in origin, is not divine in power source.
No, it most definitely is DIVINE power. Prayer may be the most common path by which such power is channeled, but nothing says it needs to be the only path. Just like how with arcane power the most common path is research and study (wizard, artificer, swordmage), yet there are also natural savants (sorcerer) and cheaters (warlock).
Personally, I find your definition of what constitutes divine power overly narrow and restrictive to the point that it needlessly limits the potential for future divine class concepts.
The problem is that the Divine Power source isn't defined by getting your power from Gods; it's defined by Praying to the Gods for power, whether through the structure of organised religion or through personal prayer (Invoker).
What you're describing is not prayer, but channeling inner power, which, while divine in origin, is not divine in power source.
No, it most definitely is DIVINE power. Prayer may be the most common path by which such power is channeled, but nothing says it needs to be the only path. Just like how with arcane power the most common path is research and study (wizard, artificer, swordmage), yet there are also natural savants (sorcerer) and cheaters (warlock).
Personally, I find your definition of what constitutes divine power overly narrow and restrictive to the point that it needlessly limits the potential for future divine class concepts.
And personally, I find that your too-wide definition of what constitutes a power source destructive of entire sources, because it would mean that Elemental would be nullified by the Chaos Sorcerer build.
Power Source is multiple things – a combination of origin of power and how you go about getting that power. Arcane characters do that through schooling – no matter whether they were natural A-students (Sorcerers), studied hard (Wizards, Swordmages, Artificers), cheated to get that A (Warlocks), or used a variety of methods to excel (Bards). The problem people find with Arcane is that there isn't just one "origin" of the arcane power they wield, mostly because they manipulate the power of the entire cosmos through what they've learned about it. Divine characters all go about using their powers through prayer. It's about a relationship with a deity, and worshipping them. If you're just descended from them, then you might as well not be religious at all, since you have power regardless. That's not prayers.
Warlocks are aracane. Thanks to the Forgotten Realms, we have Lolthbound Warlocks who are making a pact with a Divine creature for Arcane power.
I'm not sure which side that supports, just throwing it out there.
Simple point of order:
Warlocks are aracane. Thanks to the Forgotten Realms, we have Lolthbound Warlocks who are making a pact with a Divine creature for Arcane power.
I'm not sure which side that supports, just throwing it out there.
Not quite. The Dark Pact Warlocks aren't Lolthbound. They make pacts with various entities of the Underdark, usually spidery monstrocities, that may or may not be connected with Lolth. But It's not an innately divine concept. You might as well say that Infernal Warlocks are making pacts with divine creatures, since Devils are Immortals, and serve the deity Asmodeus.
Clerics channel divine energy throught the rituals that endow them power, invokers are granted that devine energy directly from their god. Its power from the astral sea, it's the energy of the astral sea.
Wizards have learned to manipulate arcane energies, magic as most of us think it, through careful study, but sorcers have a natural talent for manipulating those energies.
Martial characters practice to do the most the body can naturally do.
Primal characters have a natural connection to the spirit world, barbarians channel that through their emotions, shaman commune to the point that they may lose connection to the real world.
Psionics is the energy of the mind. Ardent's are emotionaly adept, psions are controlled and calculating in it's use, monks internalize it to break the limits of the their bodies.
So on and so forth. Power sourrce is what type of energy you are tapping into, at least in my book.
I think of power source is based of of energy.
Clerics channel divine energy throught the rituals that endow them power, invokers are granted that devine energy directly from their god. Its power from the astral sea, it's the energy of the astral sea.
Wizards have learned to manipulate arcane energies, magic as most of us think it, through careful study, but sorcers have a natural talent for manipulating those energies.
Martial characters practice to do the most the body can naturally do.
Primal characters have a natural connection to the spirit world, barbarians channel that through their emotions, shaman commune to the point that they may lose connection to the real world.
Psionics is the energy of the mind. Ardent's are emotionaly adept, psions are controlled and calculating in it's use, monks internalize it to break the limits of the their bodies.
So on and so forth. Power sourrce is what type of energy you are tapping into, at least in my book.
That's not what the official fluff of Power Sources is, though. You're welcome to interpret the Power Sources and the classes that use them any way you want. However, your idea and the canon are somewhat opposed concepts.
Each of the Power Source books have helped to define what their Power Source is about, so I would suggest a close reading of each of them.
Simple point of order:
Warlocks are aracane. Thanks to the Forgotten Realms, we have Lolthbound Warlocks who are making a pact with a Divine creature for Arcane power.
I'm not sure which side that supports, just throwing it out there.
Not quite. The Dark Pact Warlocks aren't Lolthbound. They make pacts with various entities of the Underdark, usually spidery monstrocities, that may or may not be connected with Lolth. But It's not an innately divine concept. You might as well say that Infernal Warlocks are making pacts with divine creatures, since Devils are Immortals, and serve the deity Asmodeus.
I likely would say that in regards to the Devils, but that's all in how I look at the cosmology with Devils and Angels all brokering the same power the Dieties use.
Not saying that's cannon, just saying that's how I read it.
Also, I thought there was a separate warlock path besides shadow in FR. I could easily be mistaken since I am neither a scholar of the Realms games, or warlocks for that matter.
I think of power source is based of of energy.
Clerics channel divine energy throught the rituals that endow them power, invokers are granted that devine energy directly from their god. Its power from the astral sea, it's the energy of the astral sea.
Wizards have learned to manipulate arcane energies, magic as most of us think it, through careful study, but sorcers have a natural talent for manipulating those energies.
Martial characters practice to do the most the body can naturally do.
Primal characters have a natural connection to the spirit world, barbarians channel that through their emotions, shaman commune to the point that they may lose connection to the real world.
Psionics is the energy of the mind. Ardent's are emotionaly adept, psions are controlled and calculating in it's use, monks internalize it to break the limits of the their bodies.
So on and so forth. Power sourrce is what type of energy you are tapping into, at least in my book.
That's not what the official fluff of Power Sources is, though. You're welcome to interpret the Power Sources and the classes that use them any way you want. However, your idea and the canon are somewhat opposed concepts.
Each of the Power Source books have helped to define what their Power Source is about, so I would suggest a close reading of each of them.
I will happily re read, but I have read them closely and did get anything like your interpretation that would allow a sorcerer to wield arcane power from a divine spark.
Primal Power is the best example talking about how the different classes interact with the spirit world. The power source is focused on the spirits, and drawing powers from them. They weild spirit energy, spirit magic.
That's not what the official fluff of Power Sources is, though. You're welcome to interpret the Power Sources and the classes that use them any way you want. However, your idea and the canon are somewhat opposed concepts.
Each of the Power Source books have helped to define what their Power Source is about, so I would suggest a close reading of each of them.
I will happily re read, but I have read them closely and did get anything like your interpretation that would allow a sorcerer to wield arcane power from a divine spark.
Primal Power is the best example talking about how the different classes interact with the spirit world. The power source is focused on the spirits, and drawing powers from them. They weild spirit energy, spirit magic.
That's just the thing though. Nothing is said on Divine-spark Sorcerers, but nothing is said against them either. If Chaos Sorcerer wield Elemental Chaos energy, and Storm Sorcerers wield the energy fo the natural world's storms, and Dragon Sorcerers derive their power from the same elemental energy that lies in the hearts of Dragons (Dragons are told in the Draconomicons as having an Elemental Heart bound by the work of Io, hence why they have breath weapons), and Cosmic Sorcerers derive their power from the movements of the heavens – the sun, moon, and stars, which haven't been decidedly mentioned whether they are a part of the "world" or in the Astral Sea, then there can definitely be Sorcerers that draw their energy from deities as well. It's not about where you draw your energy from, it's about how you go about learning to use it, and most importantly, how you channel it into the moment you use a power.
I hate to keep bringing it up, but I think that considering that not many people have it yet, there has been somewhat of a misunderstanding about the nature of the martial power source, and understanding it can give us some insight into the other sources. Martial Power 2 talks about how martial power is not just doing what anybody can do. It's about bringing together great natural ability (strength or agility), intense, learned skill from endless hours of dedicated training and practice, and the determination to act. When these three elements come together in an instant, the martial character is able to pull of an exploit that others would never be able to achieve. They go beyond the limits of even the greatest of normal people, and are truly heroes – martial characters.
As you can see with Martial there, it's not about energies granting you power. That may be a component of the process, sure. But what it's really about bringing all the things together that make a click and you are able to pull off something no one else could. There's a reason why powers have use limits – encounters, dailies. It's difficult to pull off these exploits, spells, prayers, evocations, disciplines, and hexes. It takes a lot of energy and determination and training to do so. It's not something you can just spam without consequence. There's a sidebar in MP2 about regaining exploits, where it talks about how martial characters regain their ability to use their exploits during a rest – whether by resharpening a weapon to make it better to cut through enemies, sorting through ammunition, balancing arrows or tossing and catching knives to stay familiar with their own centre of gravity, engaging in their vice of choice (smoking a pipe, taking a swig of alcohol, chewing leaves, etc) to steady nerves or regain composure, or even meditating on their poises, or their connection with the forces they revere, such as their deities, their good-luck charms, their connection with nature, etc.
Saying that Power Sources come from super-energy-powers is definitely dumbing it down. That said, you -can- refluff them that way. But that's not how the official fluff is going, and future classes and builds will take into the official vision of fluff as they are made.
And personally, I find that your too-wide definition of what constitutes a power source destructive of entire sources, because it would mean that Elemental would be nullified by the Chaos Sorcerer build.
I have previously admitted that arcane has in some ways all but invalidated the elemental powers source and I wouldn't be at all surprised if like ki it ultimatly ends up on the cutting room floor, though I do feel elemental still has a few tricks that it could build around (elemental transmutation, as apposed to arcane's elemental evocation). The Chaos Soul sorcerer doesn't real so much channel ELEMENTAL energies as he channels the raw unbound potential of CHAOS itself.
Divine characters all go about using their powers through prayer. It's about a relationship with a deity, and worshipping them. If you're just descended from them, then you might as well not be religious at all, since you have power regardless. That's not prayers.
It could be though. The Godborn might possess their own inner divine spark, but it is a nascent undeveloped thing. In deific terms they are barely more than a infant (possibly only a fetus). A Godborn might indeed pray to their divine 'father' in order to more fully access their own divine spark.
Even gods can pray, take for example Marvel's Thor who often prays for Odin to grant him courage, strength, or wisdom. While a 'god' in his own right, his powers are more like what a high level D&D PC would have than those of a D&D deity, as such I'd take him as something of an inspirational example for what the Godborn class might look like.
And personally, I find that your too-wide definition of what constitutes a power source destructive of entire sources, because it would mean that Elemental would be nullified by the Chaos Sorcerer build.
Maybe it just means they screwed up the fluff of the chaos Sorcerer? One could just handwave the mess by saying that it's more of a Planar energy thats linked to the Elemental Chaos.
I find the easiest way to think of Arcane is to think of like super string theory; in Arcane Power they say that arcane from comes from manipulating the "magical principles that underlie reality", this is sort of what super string is suppose to be, super stings are the supposed fabric of all fabrics, if the universe was a computer program like The Matrix or something, super sting would be the code for it, and I think Arcanists like Wizards are just like a physicist who studies and trys to delve as deem into the underling *how* of all things; and heres the the important part, In a fantasy setting the code script or the *how* is not quantum physics, it's simply *fantasy*. Thats why Arcane seems so close to all the other sources is because it's the just the nondescript way of manipulating what all the other power sources are connected to, which is fantasy; Arcane has no reason for doing it, it's all about altering the *how* for the sake of altering the *how*; and this does not mean that Arcane is like the ultimate power source, each Power Source can alter physics at the same level, Arcane just shares it's name with the magical principles that underlie reality because Arcane schooling was created for the sole purpose of messing with reality, where as the other power sources have almost always existed and can mess with reality because they represent something greater than just the power they possess.
In D&D, a lightning storm does not come from ionized air molecules expanding, lighting is a phenomenon of fantasy magic, it can happen within Pirmal magic and Divine magic or just from the power within a Sorcerer or just in the air if conditions are right. The reason why lighntning can occur in many power sources is because it works on the same principle, whether it's Primal Fire or Divine Fire it's an effect caused by modifying the code sequence in a certain way, how one is able to modify the code is where Power Source comes in.
Even gods can pray, take for example Marvel's Thor who often prays for Odin to grant him courage, strength, or wisdom. While a 'god' in his own right, his powers are more like what a high level D&D PC would have than those of a D&D deity, as such I'd take him as something of an inspirational example for what the Godborn class might look like.
Oh yeah I forgot, Thor was one of my inspirations for the class, or at least some versions of Thor were.
Also I think Prayer does not have to be taken too literally; I like to think of the Godborn as the miracle themselves, they do not so much as pray but are the power of prayer given form; A paladin has a God's approval yet preys for the strength, A Godborn has a God's strength but prays for approval. But also many Godborn from the myths did often look for guidance from their makers and they almost always sought to prove themselves to the gods, whether in defiance or as something to be proud of.
For my two cents, I think this Godborn would be closer to an Invoker than a Sorcerer, but either way, I think that if it were to be a class it would have to be broadened to contain multiple archetypes, e.g.; Hercules, Achilles, Perseus, Jesus, and various other characters who were children of the gods.
Though, like others have said, those are really rather unnecessary since they can already be duplicated by other classes. Hercules is a Barbarian (with bow proficiency...), Achilles is a Fighter, Perseus is like a rogue (ssssssneak attack!), and Jesus is a Cleric|Invoker (until the battle of Armageddon, then he takes Multiclass Avenger).
For my two cents, I think this Godborn would be closer to an Invoker than a Sorcerer, but either way, I think that if it were to be a class it would have to be broadened to contain multiple archetypes, e.g.; Hercules, Achilles, Perseus, Jesus, and various other characters who were children of the gods.
Though, like others have said, those are really rather unnecessary since they can already be duplicated by other classes. Hercules is a Barbarian (with bow proficiency...), Achilles is a Fighter, Perseus is like a rogue (ssssssneak attack!), and Jesus is a Cleric|Invoker (until the battle of Armageddon, then he takes Multiclass Avenger).
Of course all those characters can be well represented by other classes. Almost every well known character from literature or mythology can probably be stated out a half-dozen or more different ways. The point of the Godborn is not to create the one true and ONLY class to represent the archetype, but to create a class that can represent such characters while emphasizing their divine nature.
As for comparing it to the Invoker, I agree in part. Like the Invoker, the Godborn would have a much more personal relationship with their deity than the typical divine class, but where as the Invoker is a divine spellcaster, the Godborn is a divine warrior (though I could see them having a few close burst/blast pseudo-spells).
As far as I can see, this Godborn discussion arose because we wanted to know if the Godborn might be in the PH4. Shall we look at other things people want for the PH4?
Shall we look at other things people want for the PH4?
My major want is a Necromancer, which would fit well with the Shadow power source. I think they could go multiple ways with it, but I would prefer a shadow controller.
If that meant Shadow was the "main" source for the book, I'd like to see a Hexblade if it was distinct enough in concept and mechanics from existing classes (Warlock, Swordmage, etc). My one issue with that would be that it would be another weapon-using class; worst still, another weapon-using defender class.
Besides a Necromancer, I think my second highest "want" is probably a non-weapon, short-range defender class - and a larger focus on non-weapon classes in general.
I'm going to have to disagree with the need for a "Godborn class". After having read Martial Power 2, I think the basic concept is best expressed as one explanation for the martial power source, unless you want flashy effects in which case the class consept seems far too wide to really be contained in a single class.
Hmmm, Yeah I think your right. They really are kinda weird if you think about how if Martial character are people who just use bodies, then really a Godborn is just a Martial character with a Divine body. I can't really think of what other builds there could be, so it may just be too narrow of a concept afterall.
But it's a important archetype, and it needs something. I'm thinking now it would be better as a multiclass only class similar to Spellscared; The powers would be things to represent your super strength like super stomps and thunderclaps and things like that and they would be based on your choice of Con or Str.
I think that would make the most sense, Hercules was not known for his Martial skill as much as his Divine strength, but if a level 4 fighter punched a fissure across the ground I would be more likely to remember that than his skill with a sword.
I think Hercules would be a Fighter|Ranger/Godborn with Brawling style.
[/topic]
So whats next?... Archivist?... Witch?...
Shall we look at other things people want for the PH4?
I want to see more non-weapon Psionic classes. Having only the Psion not rely on whacking things with a stick is kind of pathetic for a source based on the power of the mind.
Personally, I'd like something akin to the Wilder, the Elocater, and the Lurk all having a baby who promptly runs away to art school, a class that is tied thematically to dream and nightmare. Unbinding itself slowly from normal physics, it can flicker across the battlefield and drift upon the wind, unreachable and ungraspable as the memory of last night's fancy when the morning breaks, as vicious and inescapable as night terrors in the darkness. Experts at getting into a single opponent's head, can conjure nightmares from its psyche, tormenting it with quasi-real illusions, gnawing at its sanity, or outright grabbing hold of its mind and taking its body for a ride.
Mechanically, a sort of midliner caster, one who requires a relatively close range, but has powers and abilities to keep it right out of reach, concealed in the corner of its foe's eye, or blinking from place to place across the battlefield. Misdirection would focus on sending its chosen opponent into its own personal reality, decieving it into fumbling or attacking allies, or outright dominating him by hitching a ride on his brain stem. Torment would be a little more vicious, conjuring nightmares from his own fears, figments, illusions, and horrors around a target to overwhelm him. Creativity would place a little more emphasis on the character himself, manipulating the environment with sheer thought, fighting the foe through material brought forth from the imagination, conjuring material directly from the dreamscape to use his own genius against the enemy. Lucidity would permit a more direct fighting style, moving, flying, and striking as if in a lucid dream, completely free of physical limits.
If the Psion represents enlightenment, the Ardent is emotion, and the Battlemind......whatever the hell the battlemind is supposed to be, then the Dreamweaver would be the unbridled dreamstate, channeling the power of unlimited possibilities and infinite imagination into reality.
Aside from Dream, the next major mental theme I'd like to see explored is, of course, precognition, prescience, clairsentience, and all that nifty Seer stuff. It would be interesting, for example, to see a pacifist Defender, one who negates the opponent's attacks by predicting their movements and protecting allies through mental warnings. Easily transitions into Leader and Controller secondaries, either buffing allies through advice gleaned from insight and precognition, or foiling enemies through perfectly placed actions designed to undue their entire strategy.
Above all, though, I want classes that look, feel, and act in dynamic new ways. I don't want future psionic classes to be Psionic X, Fighter-With-Powerpoints/Archer-Ranger-With-Powerpoints/Warlord-With-Powerpoints Buletteschist. I want classes that have distinct and compelling themes translated into new mechanics that set them apart from everything else, things that say "This is the unique thing that makes me my own class, and this is why I am awesome and you should play me."
[I want to see more non-weapon Psionic classes. Having only the Psion not rely on whacking things with a stick is kind of pathetic for a source based on the power of the mind.
Agreed. While the updated Psychic Warrior (in the form of the Battlemind) was pretty much a given, I would have much rather had the more caster-like presumption that was the Empath over the more warrior like Ardent. At the very least I would have liked if the Ardent was a weapon user in one build and an implement user in the other.
Shall we look at other things people want for the PH4?
I want to see more non-weapon Psionic classes. Having only the Psion not rely on whacking things with a stick is kind of pathetic for a source based on the power of the mind.
Personally, I'd like something akin to the Wilder, the Elocater, and the Lurk all having a baby who promptly runs away to art school, a class that is tied thematically to dream and nightmare. Unbinding itself slowly from normal physics, it can flicker across the battlefield and drift upon the wind, unreachable and ungraspable as the memory of last night's fancy when the morning breaks, as vicious and inescapable as night terrors in the darkness. Experts at getting into a single opponent's head, can conjure nightmares from its psyche, tormenting it with quasi-real illusions, gnawing at its sanity, or outright grabbing hold of its mind and taking its body for a ride.
Mechanically, a sort of midliner caster, one who requires a relatively close range, but has powers and abilities to keep it right out of reach, concealed in the corner of its foe's eye, or blinking from place to place across the battlefield. Misdirection would focus on sending its chosen opponent into its own personal reality, decieving it into fumbling or attacking allies, or outright dominating him by hitching a ride on his brain stem. Torment would be a little more vicious, conjuring nightmares from his own fears, figments, illusions, and horrors around a target to overwhelm him. Creativity would place a little more emphasis on the character himself, manipulating the environment with sheer thought, fighting the foe through material brought forth from the imagination, conjuring material directly from the dreamscape to use his own genius against the enemy. Lucidity would permit a more direct fighting style, moving, flying, and striking as if in a lucid dream, completely free of physical limits.
If the Psion represents enlightenment, the Ardent is emotion, and the Battlemind......whatever the hell the battlemind is supposed to be, then the Dreamweaver would be the unbridled dreamstate, channeling the power of unlimited possibilities and infinite imagination into reality.
Aside from Dream, the next major mental theme I'd like to see explored is, of course, precognition, prescience, clairsentience, and all that nifty Seer stuff. It would be interesting, for example, to see a pacifist Defender, one who negates the opponent's attacks by predicting their movements and protecting allies through mental warnings. Easily transitions into Leader and Controller secondaries, either buffing allies through advice gleaned from insight and precognition, or foiling enemies through perfectly placed actions designed to undue their entire strategy.
Above all, though, I want classes that look, feel, and act in dynamic new ways. I don't want future psionic classes to be Psionic X, Fighter-With-Powerpoints/Archer-Ranger-With-Powerpoints/Warlord-With-Powerpoints Buletteschist. I want classes that have distinct and compelling themes translated into new mechanics that set them apart from everything else, things that say "This is the unique thing that makes me my own class, and this is why I am awesome and you should play me."
This is something very similar to what I was proponenting about a year back, though I was at that time not sure if it was a Psionic idea or a Shadow idea (dealing with the Shadow personalities and such that lurk within the darkness of our slumbers).
I would very much like this.
Sounds Charisma based as well, and as you might guess, I love Cha-based classes. Could the leaderish one also delve into other allies psyches and dreams and help heal them?
Wisdom I would hope would be a rider ability score, but not Constitution for the other, for fear of overlapping too much with Ardent (and with Battlemind). Perhaps Dexterity or Intelligence?
I think that once you leave that distinct line of Melee 2 or just Melee, it's no longer a defender it's quite succintly a controller.
Also what is described could be either a psion build or a wizard build built on domination; since it's a single target caster, a domination style warlock that makes a pact with the insane dream plane beasts.
The other build sounds like it could be a very good monk or battlemind build. Nothing against your idea or anything, it's just that if it can fit somewhere else, it might ultimately better be left there versus having a whole new class attached to it.
This is something that find ultimately frustrating and conceptually intriguing about the class design in 4e; that while class as a whole is sort of static, the builds that can be put into it by tweaking a design choice here or there can significantly change how the class plays but not it's primary role or it's inherent purpose.
At this point I want more interesting mechanical takes on what classes can do; with maybe ideas that involve something like "use a power; use your minor action of your turn to add in a rider." or something of that sort.
Note: The monk is a full implement non-weapon using class. It really is. Only that more of the ranges are melee. But all it's powers implement keyword-ed.
The problem with the martial controller is the same with asking for any new martial class: all the archetypal concepts that have been proposed really fit thematically into one of the four martial classes.
Melee Controllers, however, are fully possible. Druids exemplify this. Weapon Controllers are also possible; Seekers exemplify this. There is nothing wrong with a Melee Weapon Controller. It just hasn't been done yet.
There is significant difference between a Melee Weapon Controller and a Melee Weapon Defender and Ranged Implement Defender and a Ranged Implement Controller.
Personally, though, I think the Dreamweaver should be a leader.
Isn't asking for a caster (I mean there's the swordmage) defender kinda like asking for a martial controller?
I think that once you leave that distinct line of Melee 2 or just Melee, it's no longer a defender it's quite succintly a controller.
I'd say the difference between a defender and a control is scope. A controller typically an expert at area effects, applying conditions to multiple foes, clearing out many enemies, bursting and blasting to control wide expanses of the battlemap. A defender, meanwhile, is more concentrated; less area, higher impact, with the ability to take a very small area (with the exception of the swordmage, this space is typically adjacent to them) and say "I own this space, and all within it better pay attention."
So you could easily defend at a range, as long as you have to be very selective of your target. An archer defender, for example, could work in a similar fashion to a fighter, everything that it attacks is marked (although you might have a restriction that no two marks can be more than X squares away). Likewise, a hypothetical caster defender would work well if it could designate a single area, like a burst 1 or 2 at later levels, and apply all their abilities to whatever is within the burst. That was my original idea for the Oracle, have an Eye that was literally a circle on the battlefield that all their abilities could trigger within, the focus of thier Vision. But anything outside of that area was beyond their Sight, and their mark wouldn't work without it. Attach the burst to an ally or enemy to move it around, or keep it on a normal square to control a particular point in the battle.
And then, of course, there are other ways to mark that aren't offence. Take the angels from the monster manual. They have a bodyguarding mark; the angel targets an ally and takes half of any damage dealt to it. Purely defensive, but serves the same purpose by presenting a lose-lose situation, attack the buff angel or have your attack be less effective. Defensive marking could be just as interesting, as we currently just have ways of marking foes rather than friends.
The defender is currently the least developed role in the game in terms of broadening its scope. Strikers can range from the warlock all the way to the barbarian or beastmaster ranger, completely different scopes that handle the same overall goal of single target offence. Leaders go from the warlord to the shaman, controllers can be predator druids or summoning wizards. But defenders are still extremely close together in terms of general behavior, with the swordmage's mark-at-range being the most exotic thing to which they've managed to push the boundaries. Personally, I'd like to see them broaden further, and take the concept of defense to places it hasn't been.
Isn't asking for a caster (I mean there's the swordmage) defender kinda like asking for a martial controller?
I think that once you leave that distinct line of Melee 2 or just Melee, it's no longer a defender it's quite succintly a controller.
I'd say the difference between a defender and a control is scope. A controller typically an expert at area effects, applying conditions to multiple foes, clearing out many enemies, bursting and blasting to control wide expanses of the battlemap. A defender, meanwhile, is more concentrated; less area, higher impact, with the ability to take a very small area (with the exception of the swordmage, this space is typically adjacent to them) and say "I own this space, and all within it better pay attention."
So you could easily defend at a range, as long as you have to be very selective of your target. An archer defender, for example, could work in a similar fashion to a fighter, everything that it attacks is marked (although you might have a restriction that no two marks can be more than X squares away). Likewise, a hypothetical caster defender would work well if it could designate a single area, like a burst 1 or 2 at later levels, and apply all their abilities to whatever is within the burst. That was my original idea for the Oracle, have an Eye that was literally a circle on the battlefield that all their abilities could trigger within, the focus of thier Vision. But anything outside of that area was beyond their Sight, and their mark wouldn't work without it. Attach the burst to an ally or enemy to move it around, or keep it on a normal square to control a particular point in the battle.
And then, of course, there are other ways to mark that aren't offence. Take the angels from the monster manual. They have a bodyguarding mark; the angel targets an ally and takes half of any damage dealt to it. Purely defensive, but serves the same purpose by presenting a lose-lose situation, attack the buff angel or have your attack be less effective. Defensive marking could be just as interesting, as we currently just have ways of marking foes rather than friends.
The defender is currently the least developed role in the game in terms of broadening its scope. Strikers can range from the warlock all the way to the barbarian or beastmaster ranger, completely different scopes that handle the same overall goal of single target offence. Leaders go from the warlord to the shaman, controllers can be predator druids or summoning wizards. But defenders are still extremely close together in terms of general behavior, with the swordmage's mark-at-range being the most exotic thing to which they've managed to push the boundaries. Personally, I'd like to see them broaden further, and take the concept of defense to places it hasn't been.
We do have a defensive defender, sheilding swordmage teleports and prevents damage. BUt still it's all of one build of one class, so there is plenty more to be done in this regard.
I'm still uncomfortable with ranged defenders, i'd have to see one in action to really beleie it would work, but if it's a good concept and functional I'm all for it.
Another melee controller, preferably a melee weapon controller (focused on polearms maybe), is something I want to see, I'll take it as one build (a staff wizard might work) but I would like a whole class (I lack flavor ideas to justify it however).
A caster defender would be fun. My main idea is for an elemental defender who unleases close burst 1 and close blast 1 implement attacks. He would have low armor, maybe only cloth, and lots of hp. Think of a walking nexus of energy bubling from the elemental chaos through one being. While not a phb4 thing I would like at least one implement at-will (most likely cha based effect) for the paladin to allow a full caster build, similar to a swordmage.
I'm still uncomfortable with ranged defenders, i'd have to see one in action to really beleie it would work, but if it's a good concept and functional I'm all for it.
I know I don't speak for everyone (at all), but when I say that I want a "ranged defender," I mean "very close range", not the 10-20-30 square ranges on some Controllers and Strikers. For me, the Swordmage's ranges are about proper - usually about 5 squares out. I think that, barring your at-will, you can build a "ranged" Swordmage...
While not a phb4 thing I would like at least one implement at-will (most likely cha based effect) for the paladin to allow a full caster build, similar to a swordmage.
Huh. It never really hit me that they didn't have one. Yeah, I'd like to see that too.
I'm still uncomfortable with ranged defenders, i'd have to see one in action to really beleie it would work, but if it's a good concept and functional I'm all for it.
I know I don't speak for everyone (at all), but when I say that I want a "ranged defender," I mean "very close range", not the 10-20-30 square ranges on some Controllers and Strikers. For me, the Swordmage's ranges are about proper - usually about 5 squares out. I think that, barring your at-will, you can build a "ranged" Swordmage...While not a phb4 thing I would like at least one implement at-will (most likely cha based effect) for the paladin to allow a full caster build, similar to a swordmage.
Huh. It never really hit me that they didn't have one. Yeah, I'd like to see that too.
Swordmage and paladin have proven 5 squares is good range for defenders, but and archer defender, or other long range defenders don't work in my mind.
I didn't realize it until a player was making a gnome paladin, we were looking at a caster build but all at-wills are weapon only.I'd also like said at-will cha based implement to be useable as a ba. I maybe asking too much there.
The problem with the martial controller is the same with asking for any new martial class: all the archetypal concepts that have been proposed really fit thematically into one of the four martial classes.
I still disagree with this concept. Can every concept be fit into the four available classes? Maybe, but that doesn't mean that new classes couldn't cover such concepts better (with enough hammering you might be able to fit a square peg into a round whole, but that doesn't make it a the ideal solution).
Whether the thematic concept is covered or not, I still think that the basic mechanical premise of the Swashbuckler is desirable (a defender that favors grace and cunning over force of arms). A Fighter with a light blade can pull manage graceful, but is hard pressed at cunning and while a Rogue with enough rattling powers makes a reasonable off-defender, he's still no substitute for the real thing. At present the best that can be manage is multiclass/hybrid using Fighter and Rogue, but it's an awkward fix for what is otherwise a a very simple concept.
Even the much desired/derided martial controller is a possibility, as last I checked the Dreadnought was shaping up nicely.
i would not be surprised to find that shadow might be a dnd insider only power source just my oppinion take it or leave it.
*shrugs* Could be.
i mean on the revenant and assassin matierial is says DnDI only so why should we expect the necromancer and his lot to appear in a players handbook?
Because it (a Necromancer and co) would sell the book to a large number of people, I'd guess. I mean, putting it in DDi only would sell some people on DDi too, but I doubt it'd be the same amount.
How many people felt that the Assassin was the "last drop in the bucket" that made them need to get DDi, I wonder?
Whether the thematic concept is covered or not, I still think that the basic mechanical premise of the Swashbuckler is desirable (a defender that favors grace and cunning over force of arms). A Fighter with a light blade can pull manage graceful, but is hard pressed at cunning and while a Rogue with enough rattling powers makes a reasonable off-defender, he's still no substitute for the real thing. At present the best that can be manage is multiclass/hybrid using Fighter and Rogue, but it's an awkward fix for what is otherwise a a very simple concept.
I could see that being a build for a Dex based defender, but on it's own Swashbucker is way too narrow of a concept to make a whole class for. I would rather see a Dex based defender more than just swashbucker under it's belt.
i would not be surprised to find that shadow might be a dnd insider only power source just my oppinion take it or leave it.
*shrugs* Could be.i mean on the revenant and assassin matierial is says DnDI only so why should we expect the necromancer and his lot to appear in a players handbook?
Because it (a Necromancer and co) would sell the book to a large number of people, I'd guess. I mean, putting it in DDi only would sell some people on DDi too, but I doubt it'd be the same amount.
How many people felt that the Assassin was the "last drop in the bucket" that made them need to get DDi, I wonder?
I started paying for DDi for assassin, psion, and monk previews. Love the material kept it after that.
I could see that being a build for a Dex based defender, but on it's own Swashbucker is way too narrow of a concept to make a whole class for. I would rather see a Dex based defender more than just swashbucker under it's belt.
Swashbuckler is just a name, not much different than how fighter or wizard are just names. The concept is a dexterity based highly mobile defender, in light or no armor, with a one handed weapn in one hand and nothing or a light weapn in the other, and able to make advantageous use of terrain. In one build I currently have a sort of sub-controller with intelligence who voices enemies into precarious positions (follow me if you dare), while in the other build I see a sub-leader with charisma who inspires his allies to make daring use of the available terrain (everything is more exciting with a swashbuckler around).
If you've got a better name I'm open to suggestions, but until then I'm going to keep calling it the swashbuckler.
I could see that being a build for a Dex based defender, but on it's own Swashbucker is way too narrow of a concept to make a whole class for. I would rather see a Dex based defender more than just swashbucker under it's belt.
Swashbuckler is just a name, not much different than how fighter or wizard are just names. The concept is a dexterity based highly mobile defender, in light or no armor, with a one handed weapn in one hand and nothing or a light weapn in the other, and able to make advantageous use of terrain. In one build I currently have a sort of sub-controller with intelligence who voices enemies into precarious positions (follow me if you dare), while in the other build I see a sub-leader with charisma who inspires his allies to make daring use of the available terrain (everything is more exciting with a swashbuckler around).
If you've got a better name I'm open to suggestions, but until then I'm going to keep calling it the swashbuckler.
Sounds like a Warlord to me. If there was a feat that allowed Dex instead of Str for martial melee attacks, then you'd be set.
That said, there's now ways to make Fighter and Rogue Swashbucklers, and PPaths to support them.
Sounds like a Warlord to me. If there was a feat that allowed Dex instead of Str for martial melee attacks, then you'd be set.
Not really. My concept for a swashbuckler has no heeling, except maybe a few temps, and encourages far more daring maneuverer's than the typical tactical style movements of a warlord. Also a warlord can't really pull off the sub-controller build at all. Some kind of hybrid fighter|warlord, with a side of multiclass rogue, and your hypothetical DEX for all attack feats might work, but as I've said before, one shouldn't have to jump though hoops to achieve a basic concept. This isn't 3e, where build-your-own-class multiclassing was the norm.
Sounds like a Warlord to me. If there was a feat that allowed Dex instead of Str for martial melee attacks, then you'd be set.
Not really. My concept for a swashbuckler has no heeling, except maybe a few temps, and encourages far more daring maneuverer's than the typical tactical style movements of a warlord. Also a warlord can't really pull off the sub-controller build at all. Some kind of hybrid fighter|warlord, with a side of multiclass rogue, and your hypothetical DEX for all attack feats might work, but as I've said before, one shouldn't have to jump though hoops to achieve a basic concept. This isn't 3e, where build-your-own-class multiclassing was the norm.
You don't have to jump through hoops to make a swashbuckler.
You might have to if you want to perfectly mirror your personal concept of what a swashbuckler should be.
But that doesn't mean there aren't already a few Fighter, Rogue, and Bard builds that are perfectly capable of buckling a swash.
Ok then, well name aside, I think some time ago we were both behind this concept; I would like to see it be able to do more than just one weapon with a free hand, I think because at the heart of this class is a warrior who relies on technique rather than brute force, you would have a stronger concept if you just limited their weapon selection based on dmg die.
Have a class feature that grants them bonuses as long as they use a weapon that does less than a d10 for dmg; because then they would go for more technical weapons that play off of skill and not force.
Sub leader sounds a little off to me, I don't make that connection to the archetype of a highly technical or graceful martial artist; martial artists of this kind of caliber are usually more focused on what they're doing and less on what others are doing. I would rather see sub striker because I would want this to be a mobile class that can weave it way through the battle.
Duelist
“I will handle the troll, it’s in good need of a lesson on the etiquettes of combat”
Role: Defender. You welcome the oncoming hordes; you challenge the towering giant; all in the search for the perfect bout
Power Source: Martial. You are both a scholar and an artist of combat; you rely on grace, cunning and technique that you have mastered through years of training and research
Key Abilities: Dex with Int or Cha
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged, military melee
Builds: Weapon Master and Bladedancer
Ki Focus user
You don't have to jump through hoops to make a swashbuckler.
You might have to if you want to perfectly mirror your personal concept of what a swashbuckler should be.
But that doesn't mean there aren't already a few Fighter, Rogue, and Bard builds that are perfectly capable of buckling a swash.
This is why I don't think Swashbuckler is a good name, people will think the entire class is just for making Zorro
Implements seem to be in the realms of non-martial sources, even those with weapon based classes. The current Ki Focus classes are the Assassin and Monk, both of which are not Martial. Other classes could seriously use a Ki Focus are Paladins and Avengers, of which are Divine. There's gotta be a reason for a martial class to use an implement...
Also, unarmed attacks (like the monk) are all well and good, but then you're making monk aren't you? Would you just be better off making powers that specify the need for a spiked guantlet or special class features? I just don't like to see it shoehorned into things that I think shouldn't have it.
Sub leader sounds a little off to me, I don't make that connection to the archetype of a highly technical or graceful martial artist; martial artists of this kind of caliber are usually more focused on what they're doing and less on what others are doing. I would rather see sub striker because I would want this to be a mobile class that can weave it way through the battle.
Except I'm not trying to create a highly technical martial artist. I find that rogue, fighter, or some combination of the two already makes a functional duelist.
When I say SWASHBUCKLER, I mean the kind of over the top action hero often depicted in early cinema. Classic versions of Zorro, the Three Musketeers, Sinbad, and even certain version of Robinhood are my inspiration. I like the idea of the sub-leader role for one of the builds because it allows the swashbuckler to extend their penitent for over the top heroic antics to their allies.
But but but... a Ki Focus user that's a Martial sourced class? Why? That doesn't make any sense... Ki Focus is for classes that have both implement and weapon based powers, or rather like the monk uses weapons as implements and have all implement powers. Why would a martial class, which is to say from current ideas of the martial class would never use an implement.
Well, that would depend greatly on the Ki Focus.
For example, Nifty Toolbelt could be a ki focus to represent wrenches, spare springs, hammer, and spare metal for an Engineer, who isn't reliant on the focus itself, but does a much better job with his enchanted 3/5s lefthanded screwdriver. A Grappler would be much better with his Bag 'O Chalk Dust to rub between his fingers for grip, and if it is enchanted, he'll be better at doing his job. A Chef could enhance his techniques with Special Herbs and Spices, made from the magical dust of pixies or the distilled hide of a salamander for extra crispy flavor.
If Ki Foci can also be used to represent special tools, materials, and nonweapon/nonimplement devices, they allow magical enhancement placed upon otherwise mundane items for greater effect.
(And no, I'm not proposing an engineer, grappler, and cook set of classes. Although I'd play the chef in a heartbeat.)
i would not be surprised to find that shadow might be a dnd insider only power source just my oppinion take it or leave it.
*shrugs* Could be.i mean on the revenant and assassin matierial is says DnDI only so why should we expect the necromancer and his lot to appear in a players handbook?
Because it (a Necromancer and co) would sell the book to a large number of people, I'd guess. I mean, putting it in DDi only would sell some people on DDi too, but I doubt it'd be the same amount.
How many people felt that the Assassin was the "last drop in the bucket" that made them need to get DDi, I wonder?
I started paying for DDi for assassin, psion, and monk previews. Love the material kept it after that.
i became an insider for precisely the same reason, it began ultimately with my curiosity about the monk playtest and then when the assassin article was released it made me think the shadow power source was how they planned on keeping us hooked while simultaneously attracting more potential insiders. you have to admit if its true its not a bad plan... but anythings possible. i understand what greatfrito is getting at a shadow book would sell, but maybe thats what their planning on doing with dragon annual.
But but but... a Ki Focus user that's a Martial sourced class? Why? That doesn't make any sense... Ki Focus is for classes that have both implement and weapon based powers, or rather like the monk uses weapons as implements and have all implement powers. Why would a martial class, which is to say from current ideas of the martial class would never use an implement.
Well, that would depend greatly on the Ki Focus.
For example, Nifty Toolbelt could be a ki focus to represent wrenches, spare springs, hammer, and spare metal for an Engineer, who isn't reliant on the focus itself, but does a much better job with his enchanted 3/5s lefthanded screwdriver. A Grappler would be much better with his Bag 'O Chalk Dust to rub between his fingers for grip, and if it is enchanted, he'll be better at doing his job. A Chef could enhance his techniques with Special Herbs and Spices, made from the magical dust of pixies or the distilled hide of a salamander for extra crispy flavor.
If Ki Foci can also be used to represent special tools, materials, and nonweapon/nonimplement devices, they allow magical enhancement placed upon otherwise mundane items for greater effect.
(And no, I'm not proposing an engineer, grappler, and cook set of classes. Although I'd play the chef in a heartbeat.)
But... let's see, last time I wanted a class like an engineer... It has to be Arcane. Even the grappler has to stick to weapons, most likely spiked guantlets. And that chef... also Arcane. Martial has to stick to weapons, that's thier shtick, no really, that's what makes them martial. They don't rely on anything but thier weapon, thier training, and ultimately thier body.
Monks rely on the mysticism and the mental powers that surpass what the body can do even in extremes with training. They rely solely on themselves, and don't even need what amounts to weapons to be effective. Thus the Ki Focus. It's something they can focus thier powers, (it's an elegant solution to the issues with unarmed strike).
So let's get to a decent point of contention, the Grappler. So far there is one real existing build of a grappler; it's a fighter build from MP2. But they all rely on the Fighter still having a weapon.
Now, let's imagine one without weapons, more like Zangief from SF... and I hit the conclusion that it should be in all regards a Monk build. That archetype or even idea meshes extremely well with the monk's base class statistics, but probably so far lacks power support.
Also Spike Guantlets dont' even have to be spiked or guantlet-y. It's a glove. And having a glove somehow gives better proficiency and ups the damage die.
I don't really don't see whats so unMartial about it; whats the difference between a Fighter who relies on a magic sword and a Duelist who relies on a magic manual that can make any weapon they hold magical?
I far as I know, it wouldn't even have to be a class feature; any class can buy a Ki focus and use it to enchant their weapons.
When I say SWASHBUCKLER, I mean the kind of over the top action hero often depicted in early cinema. Classic versions of Zorro, the Three Musketeers, Sinbad, and even certain version of Robinhood are my inspiration. I like the idea of the sub-leader role for one of the builds because it allows the swashbuckler to extend their penitent for over the top heroic antics to their allies.
That does not sound like a defender to me, that just sounds like a Rogue build; for one thing it's way too specific, a class should be able to handle more than one archetype, and I really don't see how they're defenders if they're not some sort of duelist.
I just did Ki Focus because I wanted them to be able to use any weapon.
I don't really don't see whats so unMartial about it; whats the difference between a Fighter who relies on a magic sword and a Duelist who relies on a magic manual that can make any weapon they hold magical?
I far as I know, it wouldn't even have to be a class feature; any class can buy a Ki focus and use it to enchant their weapons.
That's not what Ki Focuses do.
For one thing, you have to be able to use a Ki Focus as an implement in order to benefit from the bonus to melee.
For another, it's not a "magic manual that can make any weapon they hold magical". It's an implement that enchants your soul. Once your soul is all magicked up, the enchantment bleeds out and affects any and all attacks you make.
Martial people hit people with magic swords. They don't meditate over mystic tomes to make themselves magical.
That does not sound like a defender to me, that just sounds like a Rogue build; for one thing it's way too specific, a class should be able to handle more than one archetype, and I really don't see how they're defenders if they're not some sort of duelist.
I really don't see how your duelist is any less of a narrow concept, and personally I find it more narrow. I also find that the concept brakes down when fighting huge or bigger enemies (you can't 'duel' a dragon). My Swashbuckler encompasses a variety of heroes from across a particular genre. As to how they are a defender, they defend more through taunts and less through swordplay (a decision I made to help separate them from the fighter), though exactly how the mechanics for that work is something I'm still uncertain of.
There's a PP for fighters in MP2 called Rakehell Duelist that seems to have been specifically made with tempest fighters, muticlass/hybrid fighter-rogues in mind. main attack stat str, secondary modifier stat dex. it's first attack power even gets better if you throw you off-hand weapon at the target first! wich is neat IMO. Its not exactly as cool as a totally new class and a dex based martial defender would be really cool but most people i know seem to be satisfied with this option.
in response to the duelist/swashbuckler argument...
There's a PP for fighters in MP2 called Rakehell Duelist that seems to have been specifically made with tempest fighters, muticlass/hybrid fighter-rogues in mind. main attack stat str, secondary modifier stat dex. it's first attack power even gets better if you throw you off-hand weapon at the target first! wich is neat IMO. Its not exactly as cool as a totally new class and a dex based martial defender would be really cool but most people i know seem to be satisfied with this option.
When I was spoiling the book, I said something to this effect. I wanted to stay out of this argument, so I'm glad you said my argument for me.
As a side note: Myrmidon made it as a PPath for Fighters as well: WotC shows that it want's to cater to our character concepts, it's just that there are other ways of building said concept than making a whole new class.
I've already mentioned earlier that i expect wilder for PHB4 id like to add to that the Dromite race and as a wish id like to see Oriental Adventures and Rokugan material namely shugenja class and vanara, korubukuru, nezumi, hengeyokai races. however i think it much more likely that stuff will end up in a setting guide much later, i wonder if there's a "next setting book wishlist" forum.
That's this forum, egg_thallid_sandwich.
Make a new topic, and we'll discuss it.
Personally, I hope they don't make a Wilder class, but have it wrapped tightly into the Ardent here in PH3.
Besides, Wilder is a Character Theme in Dark Sun, much like Templar or Gladiator.
I've already mentioned earlier that i expect wilder for PHB4 id like to add to that the Dromite race and as a wish id like to see Oriental Adventures and Rokugan material namely shugenja class and vanara, korubukuru, nezumi, hengeyokai races. however i think it much more likely that stuff will end up in a setting guide much later, i wonder if there's a "next setting book wishlist" forum.
Unless AEG sells/licenses the Rokugan property back to WotC, nothing Rokugan-specific will ever appear in a WotC book. It simply isn't legal.
That's not what Ki Focuses do.
For one thing, you have to be able to use a Ki Focus as an implement in order to benefit from the bonus to melee.
For another, it's not a "magic manual that can make any weapon they hold magical". It's an implement that enchants your soul. Once your soul is all magicked up, the enchantment bleeds out and affects any and all attacks you make.
Martial people hit people with magic swords. They don't meditate over mystic tomes to make themselves magical.
Well thats lame.
I guess I would just make a magic item that did what I was talking about then.
There's a PP for fighters in MP2 called Rakehell Duelist that seems to have been specifically made with tempest fighters, muticlass/hybrid fighter-rogues in mind. main attack stat str, secondary modifier stat dex. it's first attack power even gets better if you throw you off-hand weapon at the target first! wich is neat IMO. Its not exactly as cool as a totally new class and a dex based martial defender would be really cool but most people i know seem to be satisfied with this option
Does it cover spear fighting or maybe Spiked Chain? Could a character with a 10 Str be good at the class? Can it duel a Dragon?
Because the kind of duelist I want is not some stylish sword fighter. I want a class that is just as much a philosopher, a poet, a mathematician, a psychologist or a dancer as they are a warrior.
Because the kind of duelist I want is not some stylish sword fighter. I want a class that is just as much a philosopher, a poet, a mathematician, a psychologist or a dancer as they are a warrior.
That's all non-mechanical role-playing elements and can be applied to any character.
That's all non-mechanical role-playing elements and can be applied to any character.
So are Power Sources.
That's all non-mechanical role-playing elements and can be applied to any character.
So are Power Sources.
Not arguing.
That's not what Ki Focuses do.
For one thing, you have to be able to use a Ki Focus as an implement in order to benefit from the bonus to melee.
For another, it's not a "magic manual that can make any weapon they hold magical". It's an implement that enchants your soul. Once your soul is all magicked up, the enchantment bleeds out and affects any and all attacks you make.
Martial people hit people with magic swords. They don't meditate over mystic tomes to make themselves magical.
Well thats lame.
I guess I would just make a magic item that did what I was talking about then.There's a PP for fighters in MP2 called Rakehell Duelist that seems to have been specifically made with tempest fighters, muticlass/hybrid fighter-rogues in mind. main attack stat str, secondary modifier stat dex. it's first attack power even gets better if you throw you off-hand weapon at the target first! wich is neat IMO. Its not exactly as cool as a totally new class and a dex based martial defender would be really cool but most people i know seem to be satisfied with this option
Does it cover spear fighting or maybe Spiked Chain? Could a character with a 10 Str be good at the class? Can it duel a Dragon?
Because the kind of duelist I want is not some stylish sword fighter. I want a class that is just as much a philosopher, a poet, a mathematician, a psychologist or a dancer as they are a warrior.
Have you been introduced to the bard? While it's been toned down this edition the bard still covers all of those areas. Weapon attacks? Check, so some fighting prowess. Pilosopher? Well the catalouge stories of past heros ad try to emmulate them, the cunning bard in particular favors possible philosophers, so I'd call this a check. Poet and dancer are somewhat lacking, but they still are masters of words, and music. SO on and so forth, they even get bonuses to a bunch of skills..
And then yeah the things can be roleplayed, since most of that can't be done mechanically.
That's not what Ki Focuses do.
For one thing, you have to be able to use a Ki Focus as an implement in order to benefit from the bonus to melee.
For another, it's not a "magic manual that can make any weapon they hold magical". It's an implement that enchants your soul. Once your soul is all magicked up, the enchantment bleeds out and affects any and all attacks you make.
Martial people hit people with magic swords. They don't meditate over mystic tomes to make themselves magical.
Well thats lame.
I guess I would just make a magic item that did what I was talking about then.There's a PP for fighters in MP2 called Rakehell Duelist that seems to have been specifically made with tempest fighters, muticlass/hybrid fighter-rogues in mind. main attack stat str, secondary modifier stat dex. it's first attack power even gets better if you throw you off-hand weapon at the target first! wich is neat IMO. Its not exactly as cool as a totally new class and a dex based martial defender would be really cool but most people i know seem to be satisfied with this option
Does it cover spear fighting or maybe Spiked Chain? Could a character with a 10 Str be good at the class? Can it duel a Dragon?
Because the kind of duelist I want is not some stylish sword fighter. I want a class that is just as much a philosopher, a poet, a mathematician, a psychologist or a dancer as they are a warrior.
If youre the game master and none of your players are rules lawyers you could just make your ki-focus use a house rule. no the rakehell deulist doesnt use those weapons, it is strength based and specifically for two weapons and looks like youll want any one handed weapon in your main hand and a light thrown weapon in your off-hand (hence the lean towards multiclass/hybrid fighter-rogues) but the flavor is very close to what your looking for and yes your list of qualities is merely flavor or at best could be reflected in skill choices. heres some text from the description:
You are the Rakehell Duelist because you are the best at what you do. With a weapon in each hand, you rely on fast footwork and skillful parries. You scorn combatants who need half an hour to strap on heavy armor before they can do battle. By the time other warriors are ready, you can dispatch three sets of opponents and two flagon of ale. Knowing that a fight is arround the corner, you make sure you're prepared and that you enjoy life while you can.
You have won riches and fame by going up against deadly opponents. Although your talents have earned you the means to retire to a life of luxury, you find that your pursuit of the good life seems to end up causing fights. For a rakehell duelist, that's the point. Boasting, gambling, and courting the attractive and wealthy is fun because it can result in being challenged to a duel.
if that doesnt scream "I'm the life of the party" then ill eat my monster manual. As for dueling dragons? Duel implies a one on one battle and youd have to be either very stupid of very powerful to take on a dragon alone. Will the Duelist's abilities be handy in a battle versus a dragon? absolutely.
here's an example of a hybrid tempest fighter - brawny rogue. On any given turn you'll either engage in close combat with a fighter power or throw your off hand weapon at an enemy with a rogue power, all of your rogue powers need not be ranged i was just using it as an example. be sure to pick up Dual Strike MP1, the fighter's version of Twin strike except the two attacks must be on the same target. And the lvl 2 utility also from MP1 pass forward is great for tiptoe-ing arround a choosen enemy plus its an at-will move action!!! Marked Opportunity, the rakehell duelist's lvl 16 feature, works great for hybrid rogues because you gain combat advantage when an enemy marked by you violates your combat challenge. Duelist's guard, a lvl 11 feature, grants a small AC bonus vs marked enemy's attacks while wearing light armor or chain. since you'll wana have good dex you might opt for hide instead of chain so your AC can benefit from that high dex modifier. now if you can just wait for paragon tier you could buckle swashes and duel like there's no tomorow.
I've already mentioned earlier that i expect wilder for PHB4 id like to add to that the Dromite race and as a wish id like to see Oriental Adventures and Rokugan material namely shugenja class and vanara, korubukuru, nezumi, hengeyokai races. however i think it much more likely that stuff will end up in a setting guide much later, i wonder if there's a "next setting book wishlist" forum.
That's this forum, egg_thallid_sandwich.
Make a new topic, and we'll discuss it.
Personally, I hope they don't make a Wilder class, but have it wrapped tightly into the Ardent here in PH3.
Besides, Wilder is a Character Theme in Dark Sun, much like Templar or Gladiator.
I'll admit the ardent and wilder resemble each other to a degree but the most glaring difference are 1) IMO the wilder should be a implement user. so ya the wilder did have more weapon proficiencies than most casters and also light shields but I'd thought that was to fall back on when they ran out of power points after all they were risking their lives to boost their powers with Wild surge and that brings me to the second big difference. 2) Ardent surge is a means of psychically boosting your allies and hampering your enemies but wild surge was a means of psychically enhancing yourself to attain far greater power. The wilder is a striker not a leader? If the ardent is the new wilder i'll be very disappointed. 4E psions across the multiverse will be missing their crazy charismatic buddies who hang with them behind the meat shields and surprise everyone with colossal outbusts of power none thought them capable of then pass out from expending too much power. Their sorcerer to his wizard, their rogue to his fighter, their Kramar to his Seignfeld...
I'll admit the ardent and wilder resemble each other to a degree but the most glaring difference are 1) IMO the wilder should be a implement user. so ya the wilder did have more weapon proficiencies than most casters and also light shields but I'd thought that was to fall back on when they ran out of power points after all they were risking their lives to boost their powers with Wild surge and that brings me to the second big difference. 2) Ardent surge is a means of psychically boosting your allies and hampering your enemies but wild surge was a means of psychically enhancing yourself to attain far greater power. The wilder is a striker not a leader? If the ardent is the new wilder i'll be very disappointed. 4E psions across the multiverse will be missing their crazy charismatic buddies who hang with them behind the meat shields and surprise everyone with colossal outbusts of power none thought them capable of then pass out from expending too much power. Their sorcerer to his wizard, their rogue to his fighter, their Kramar to his Seignfeld...
That right there is the problem. We don't want Psionic X. Psion has become different enough from the Wizard. But the Wilder was like the Sorcerer In-Psion!
By modifying it, while retaining the essential element – the wild, emotional, natural element, as opposed to the cerebral Psions or the focused Monks or the arrogant Battleminds, the Ardent has become the niche that the Wilder had, while eating the old Ardent as well as the Empath concept as well.
And remember, only the Mantle of Elation focuses on rousing the spirits of your allies - the debuted build, the Enlightened Ardent, focuses on screwing with your enemies emotions.
Whether the thematic concept is covered or not, I still think that the basic mechanical premise of the Swashbuckler is desirable (a defender that favors grace and cunning over force of arms). A Fighter with a light blade can pull manage graceful, but is hard pressed at cunning and while a Rogue with enough rattling powers makes a reasonable off-defender, he's still no substitute for the real thing. At present the best that can be manage is multiclass/hybrid using Fighter and Rogue, but it's an awkward fix for what is otherwise a a very simple concept.
I could see that being a build for a Dex based defender, but on it's own Swashbucker is way too narrow of a concept to make a whole class for. I would rather see a Dex based defender more than just swashbucker under it's belt.
If you want to do a swashbuckler, may I suggest an Idea I came up with. Reflavor the character's armor into a fencing-style defence. It still provides the protection. It still has a cost: the cost of being trained in it. It still has a weight effect: reduces your carrying capacity by the weight of the armor (represents the mobility required for the defense). And it still both reduces speed and applies the armor check penalty: you can't move or physically go all-out while mainting the defense.
I also have reflavored the armors into tribal war-paint, shamanistic fetishes that grant protection, and body-hardening exercises for martial artists. The basic element is just to keep the mechanical effect of the armor (which is pre-balanced), and just refluff the reason why your protected.
How about the Cat Folk from Races of the Wild or whatever they were called. I know there's shifters in 4E, but how about something that's "pure breed" and cooler looking.
Fluff is mutable.
In your game, shifters could be "pure-bred" Cat-people (whatever that's supposed to mean), and you can describe them as "cooler looking."
Thing is, Razorclaw Shifter already fills the "cat-person" niche, so there's really no need for what would be a redundant race.
... That would be an amusing supplement, wouldn't it? Redundant Races...
Just because two races are similar, it does not mean that they can't be made completely different with mechanics as well as fluff.
Redundant races means absolutely nothing. If it did, we wouldn't have Eladrin, Elves, and Drow. Or Dwarves and Duergar.
Just because two races are similar, it does not mean that they can't be made completely different with mechanics as well as fluff.
But Eladrin, Elves, and Drow are quite different in fluff, appearance, and mechanics. When comparing races, all three differences are key.
Catfolk might have different fluff and mechanics, but they're still catfolk, which look basically identical to Rc Shifters, since the art varies so wildly with Shifters.
I will say that my wishlist for any PHB races includes Lizardfolk, Kobolds, and Saurians (preferably all the variants released and some new ones). I know that Dragonborn have effectively shut out the Lizardfolk which is disappointing as they would make a fun Primal Race with a +2 Str +2 Wis I would think. But that's me.
Saurians probably won't see the light of day as they were to specific to FR and even in FR they were exceedingly rare.
Kobolds...well they probably have the biggest chance out of all the races on my list, but only when the power source that is closely aligned with dragons comes out I bet.
I will say that my wishlist for any PHB races includes Lizardfolk, Kobolds, and Saurians (preferably all the variants released and some new ones). I know that Dragonborn have effectively shut out the Lizardfolk which is disappointing as they would make a fun Primal Race with a +2 Str +2 Wis I would think. But that's me.
Saurians probably won't see the light of day as they were to specific to FR and even in FR they were exceedingly rare.
Kobolds...well they probably have the biggest chance out of all the races on my list, but only when the power source that is closely aligned with dragons comes out I bet.
Hence, Kobolds will probably be in PH5, considering all Dragons have an Elemental Heart.
.
But Eladrin, Elves, and Drow are quite different in fluff, appearance, and mechanics. When comparing races, all three differences are key.
Catfolk might have different fluff and mechanics, but they're still catfolk, which look basically identical to Rc Shifters, since the art varies so wildly with Shifters.
And how many people have there been in the past two years complaining about Elves and Eladrin looking alike? Maybe not a lot, but it happens. Razorclaws still look more human than catlike in every bit of 4e art I've seen. An actualy cat-folk race would look, well, like actual cat humanoids.
But Eladrin, Elves, and Drow are quite different in fluff, appearance, and mechanics. When comparing races, all three differences are key.
Catfolk might have different fluff and mechanics, but they're still catfolk, which look basically identical to Rc Shifters, since the art varies so wildly with Shifters.
And how many people have there been in the past two years complaining about Elves and Eladrin looking alike? Maybe not a lot, but it happens. Razorclaws still look more human than catlike in every bit of 4e art I've seen. An actualy cat-folk race would look, well, like actual cat humanoids.
I don't know about you or others, but to me, Elves and Eladrin look siginificantly different. Especially when Elves tend towards Bronze Skin while Eladrin tend to be like Scandinavians – nearly white blond, with the fairest skin possible without looking Vampire-pale, and those eyes! Those eyes!.
Eladrin look alien in nature, which they should be because of how perilous they are. Elves look a lot more natural, humanesque. Eladrin fall into an Uncanny Valley, and because of that, while they may share characteristics, they give off an entirely different vibe from Elves.
Have you been introduced to the bard?
First people tell me it's just a Rogue, then they say it's just a Fighter, now they say it's just a Bard; I must really be on to something.
if that doesnt scream "I'm the life of the party" then ill eat my monster manual.
I don't want life of the party, I think a Rogue with the right PP does life of the party just fine.
The class I'm talking about is not just a swashbuckler, the archetype can be done with the class like how many other classes can do it, but this class would be something much more than that.
I'm thinking about switching their secondary stat of Cha to Wis, just so people will stop thinking that I'm trying to make Errol Flynn
If you want to do a swashbuckler, may I suggest an Idea I came up with.
First of all, I'm not going for swashbuckler.
Secondly, this is not about what I want; I'm not advocating this class because I have a character in mind and I want a class for.
I really hate it when people come on to the speculation threads and talk about how fluff is mutable. This is not the place for that, we know it's mutable, but we also know what purpose it serves within the books and we are simply thinking about it the same way WotC uses it, to help sell books.
There are places on these forums where people need to be reminded of that sometimes, but on the future releases forums, there is no point in bringing it up; because everything on these forums are speculation, suggestions and brainstorming and thus it's all mutable.
We bring up fluff because that is the starting point to making a new class, I'm not interested in classes that were created without a thematic foundation.
It's getting to a point where people just sound like they're saying fluff is a bad thing. If you really think fluff is mutable and that if you want something you should just reflavor it, then why do you care whats in the PH4?
What I'd like to hear is how you think the Marking and Punishment mechanism should work and how it will be different from the Fighter (If not all the other Defenders). What build options/mechanics do you see for this class? What mechanics do you see this character having for keeping his AC competative with the Defender standard (Whatever that is)?
I'd also like to see ideas for their powers. What should their At-Wills look like? What kind of menchanical effects do their Encounter and Daily powers bring to the table?
I think if you can answer these questions it would go a long way to convincing people of the worth of your idea rather than just saying "It's a Dax based Martial Defender"
That's just my 2 cents of course.
Please no.......for all the Gods and everything that is good in D&D no Na'Vi or Avatar USB porting nature devices.
The Argonians of Elderscrolls did it first, if you makes you feel any better.
Except they had wireless.
Please no.......for all the Gods and everything that is good in D&D no Na'Vi or Avatar USB porting nature devices.
The Argonians of Elderscrolls did it first, if you makes you feel any better.
Except they had wireless.
.......No not really cause then it pushes more people to want those.....things in....though I'm fine with them showing up in Gamma World. That seems like a good setting for them.
Anyway, to get back on track.
On the Dex based defender, when I think this build concept I really don't think Swashbuckler. I always think characters like the Iaijutsu Masters from L5R, or the knight that wears no armor but is still untouchable, kind of like Mad Martigan (Did I spell his name right?). People along those lines that are just side step or are quick to block, but only strike back once.
I'd love a dex based defender that was spear and light blade based much more Hoplite then anything else. But, this can be done with the proper powers and character conception.
Swashbucklers I feel are covered quite nicely by the rogue as long as the character is fleshed out. That is me though, and very other folks have given compelling and reasonable arguments for swashbucklers as a dex based defender.
What I'd like to hear is how you think the Marking and Punishment mechanism should work and how it will be different from the Fighter (If not all the other Defenders). What build options/mechanics do you see for this class? What mechanics do you see this character having for keeping his AC competative with the Defender standard (Whatever that is)?
I'd also like to see ideas for their powers. What should their At-Wills look like? What kind of menchanical effects do their Encounter and Daily powers bring to the table?
I think if you can answer these questions it would go a long way to convincing people of the worth of your idea rather than just saying "It's a Dax based Martial Defender"
Well I don't think it's impossible to make a new defender class mechanically different from the last. Mechanics are not the foundation of a class concept, there are countless ways to make any class mechanically unique and interesting; but unless you have a thematic foundation for your class that makes it both unique and expansive, then there is no point in thinking about it's mechanics.
IMO the mechanics of the class are there simply to help illustrate the thematics; so if you have issues with the fluff behind the class concept, then the mechanics shouldn't matter to you.
Anyways, I do have some mechanics in mind. I see the Weapon Master (Int) build as a sub striker, one on one kind of defender, they pick out a enemy then lock them into a duel with a heavy duty mark. I see the Blade Dancer (Wis) as a sub controller, crowd crasher, they draw in enemies into clusters by swirling around the battlefield leading some along while leaving others confused in their wake, not sure, have to rethink blade dancer now that they're Wis based.
then forget a charisma based psionic striker, that only matters to players like my girlfriend who love classes that say "I'm desirable therefor deadly" I propose a Psionic striker implement user called the Savager who is psionic but feels a lil primal. it will have an ability that allows her to sacrifice some of her personal essence (HP or healing surges) to attain a higher level of power in the form of free augments or perhaps they have a fourth augment that can only be attained an additional sacrifice. itll be called savage surge, wild wave or something like that. it doesnt have to feel like the sorcerer of psionics but what the wilder lost when it became the ardent should still be conidered a viable concept. if not then the basic mechanics shall be missed, "I hurt myself to hurt others" Con primary because you need to be tough and have alot of hit points. not sure about the builds yet but im thinking wis/int for secondary abilities to back up the psionic feel.
aditionally harkening back to the whats the difference between catfolk and shifters or elves, drow and eladrin. just give your shifter a snout and a tail and you have a catfolk. do we really need an anthro race for every animal and thensome? plus elves, drow and eladrin are similar but thats only because they shared the same origins then evolved along three separate paths. like the gith who eventually became two separate races who each has their own niche. so ask yourself in what ways would a catfolk be different from a shifter? would it still favor the same classes? would it still be quick and fierce? if you answered yes then thats not very different... just cuz catfolk dont share the same origins as shifters but still fill the same niche doesnt mean they should exist cuz there are three different elves and two different gith because those races are different.
PS: Also im a hypocrite cuz i love minotaurs, nezumi and vanara...
PPS: lets see some aquatic elves!!! just joking
What I'd like to hear is how you think the Marking and Punishment mechanism should work and how it will be different from the Fighter (If not all the other Defenders). What build options/mechanics do you see for this class? What mechanics do you see this character having for keeping his AC competative with the Defender standard (Whatever that is)?
I'd also like to see ideas for their powers. What should their At-Wills look like? What kind of menchanical effects do their Encounter and Daily powers bring to the table?
I think if you can answer these questions it would go a long way to convincing people of the worth of your idea rather than just saying "It's a Dax based Martial Defender"
Well I don't think it's impossible to make a new defender class mechanically different from the last. Mechanics are not the foundation of a class concept, there are countless ways to make any class mechanically unique and interesting; but unless you have a thematic foundation for your class that makes it both unique and expansive, then there is no point in thinking about it's mechanics.
IMO the mechanics of the class are there simply to help illustrate the thematics; so if you have issues with the fluff behind the class concept, then the mechanics shouldn't matter to you.
Anyways, I do have some mechanics in mind. I see the Weapon Master (Int) build as a sub striker, one on one kind of defender, they pick out a enemy then lock them into a duel with a heavy duty mark. I see the Blade Dancer (Wis) as a sub controller, crowd crasher, they draw in enemies into clusters by swirling around the battlefield leading some along while leaving others confused in their wake, not sure, have to rethink blade dancer now that they're Wis based.
You see, the thing is, this Blade Dancer has a name: Ranger. It looks like a Ranger build to me, jumping into clusters of enemies and attacking multiple ones with Twin Strike.
The locking an enemy into a duel? That's the Battlemind's Schtick.
You see, the thing is, this Blade Dancer has a name: Ranger. It looks like a Ranger build to me, jumping into clusters of enemies and attacking multiple ones with Twin Strike.
Give me a break, yes a build of the the Ranger fights groups, but that does not mean it's the only class allowed to do that. Besides, The Blade Dancer does this with more of a focus on control; instead of the Ranger or Tempest who would attack two or three enemies, the Blade Dancer might attack one and scatter the rest with a slide effect then draw the enemy they attacked closer to allies or pull multiple enemies in a blast area then shift through them unharmed to box them in.
The locking an enemy into a duel? That's the Battlemind's Schtick.
Locking an enemy is the schtick of all defenders. And the Battlemind just hypnotizes enemies into attacking em and that it hurts the enemies brain if they disobey it, thats not even close to what I'm talking about, and frankly I don't care about Battleminds because it's a really dumb class.
I would suggest you take another look at the Battlemind. Their stick isn't just locking down like all other defenders, they're really good at locking down a single enemy into a duel. That's one of their central elements. The hypnotism? That's one build's element; the other build is also about Psychometabolism. But both focus on singling out a powerful opponent and locking them down. That's a stick concept for the entire Battlemind class, and even if you want to ignore the entire class from existance, if you're building a class, it needs to take into account possible overlap with other classes, even one's YOU don't approve of.
Okay. So you focus more on control. That sounds less like a defender and more like a martial controller if I ever heard of one. And they don't feel like the same class. You need a unifying concept – a unifying class feature mechanically and fluff-wise to unite them.
I would suggest you take another look at the Battlemind. Their stick isn't just locking down like all other defenders, they're really good at locking down a single enemy into a duel. That's one of their central elements. The hypnotism? That's one build's element; the other build is also about Psychometabolism. But both focus on singling out a powerful opponent and locking them down. That's a stick concept for the entire Battlemind class, and even if you want to ignore the entire class from existance, if you're building a class, it needs to take into account possible overlap with other classes, even one's YOU don't approve of.
Even so, you're only talking about two builds from two different classes have some mechanical theme overlap, that's hardly something to back to go drawing board over.
It's a tactic we're talking about, Battlemind does not own the tactic, that's not what classes are about.
Okay. So you focus more on control. That sounds less like a defender and more like a martial controller if I ever heard of one. And they don't feel like the same class. You need a unifying concept – a unifying class feature mechanically and fluff-wise to unite them.
I'm only talking about the extent of their minoring in controller, and being able to move around a group of enemies from time to time does not make you a controller.
And there would probably not be as much difference between the two as I'm implying, I'm just pointing how they're different. They would both probably have the same marking feature and stuff, their differences would be found in their powers for the most part like most classes.
Okay. Let's continue this discussion, Mcnancy, but elsewhere. I think that it's good to talk about, and I want to hear your class concepts fleshed out, but this is a speculation thread for PH4, not a "Show your Class Concepts" thread. Granted, there's a bit of overlap in that the classes and races that'll appear in many cases will be new or revamped old material, but there's a limit, and we don't want the debate over whether a fan-made class should be a class or not to devour a thread looking at speculation for a specific book.
I don't plan on making this class, I just have a very good idea of what I want. My Ideas on the Duelist are simply to show that a Duelist class would be cool and be a good addition to the game.
As far as actual speculation goes, after Runepriest, I really have no idea what WotC is going to do next.
How about the Cat Folk from Races of the Wild or whatever they were called. I know there's shifters in 4E, but how about something that's "pure breed" and cooler looking.
Fluff is mutable.
In your game, shifters could be "pure-bred" Cat-people (whatever that's supposed to mean), and you can describe them as "cooler looking."
Thing is, Razorclaw Shifter already fills the "cat-person" niche, so there's really no need for what would be a redundant race.
... That would be an amusing supplement, wouldn't it? Redundant Races...
Shifters are people who have lycanthropes in their ancestry, ie werewolves or werecats, hence the name "shifter." So they don't fill the niche I'm talking about. The catfolk I'm describing could be descended from domestic or wild felines, such as Tigers, Sabre-Toothed Cats, Cheetahs, Panthers, Caracals, Lynx, Leopards or even House Cats. They would come with their own unique buffs and racial powers. That's what I'm talking about.
Shifters are people who have lycanthropes in their ancestry, ie werewolves or werecats, hence the name "shifter." So they don't fill the niche I'm talking about. The catfolk I'm describing could be descended from domestic or wild felines, such as Tigers, Sabre-Toothed Cats, Cheetahs, Panthers, Caracals, Lynx, Leopards or even House Cats. They would come with their own unique buffs and racial powers. That's what I'm talking about.
That's a fluff dispute, not a real one. It's like saying we need a Half-Giant race for Dark Sun and completely ignoring Goliaths – which thankfully was averted.
That's a fluff dispute, not a real one. It's like saying we need a Half-Giant race for Dark Sun and completely ignoring Goliaths – which thankfully was averted.
That is nowhere near even being in the same continent. Razorclaw mechanics do not fit for a catfolk race in any logical manner. Goliath mechanics work just fine for half-giants.
That's a fluff dispute, not a real one. It's like saying we need a Half-Giant race for Dark Sun and completely ignoring Goliaths – which thankfully was averted.
That is nowhere near even being in the same continent. Razorclaw mechanics do not fit for a catfolk race in any logical manner. Goliath mechanics work just fine for half-giants.
+2 Dex yeah that's a cat
+2 Wis, yeah that's also a cat.
+2 Acrobatics.........cat. +2 Stealth....Cat
Able to shift, Cat, +1 Ref, Cat
RC shifters are Catfolk, they work out great for them, even my wife that is a diehard Catfolk player simply asked day she read PHB2 "Can we make the shifters catfolk?" and ended that. They fit the niche. Mechanically they can't get very different then what the RC gives use.
EDIT: It's just that when introducing new races and classes I agree that they need to have something that sets them apart both mechanically and conceptually. I was thinking to myself for this forum the other day how I wanted elemental power source to have a Defender that was a shapechanger like the druid. He turned into an elemental and all this powers after that were in line with this "Elemental Wild Shape like ability." Then it dawned on me that in all honesty this is pretty much covered by the Warden. Is it what I want exactly? No, but the concept is there, a shapeshifting defender, and on top of that the defender has several forms that are elemental.
Again much like my lizardfolk, beaten to the punch by a class that is mechanically similar to what I want. Plus, I'd put money down, that eventually they will make a Elemental Form for the druid in a Primal Power # eventually.
You know, this reminds me of something. Somewhere between six months and a year ago, there were a number of people on the boards asking WotC to bring out a Rogue build with Int as a secondary. A just as large group would then say, "We don't need that! It's completely redundant and unnecessary and a stupid idea!" Well, I guess we know what happened with that argument ...
I'm not saying I want a Catfolk race. Hell, I don't know that I'd even play one if it were available. But to say it's not needed when we have Razorclaws is completely wrong, and is exactly like saying we don't need Drow and Eladrin when we have Elves.
I don't think Catfolk add anything to the game, they resemble nothing more than a limited niche, that yes Shifters could fill simply by changing their fluff a bit.
I don't think Kobolds add anything to the game; they resemble nothing more than a limited niche, that yes Goblins could fill simply by changing their fluff a bit.
Yeah .... that's a load of BS in either version.
Saying the Razorclaws can be refluffed as Catfolk is like saying Elves can be refluffed as Drow. You could do it, but it makes no sense. And no, Razorclaw shifting is not in any way appropriate for a purely catfolk race.
You know, this reminds me of something. Somewhere between six months and a year ago, there were a number of people on the boards asking WotC to bring out a Rogue build with Int as a secondary. A just as large group would then say, "We don't need that! It's completely redundant and unnecessary and a stupid idea!" Well, I guess we know what happened with that argument ...
I'm not saying I want a Catfolk race. Hell, I don't know that I'd even play one if it were available. But to say it's not needed when we have Razorclaws is completely wrong, and is exactly like saying we don't need Drow and Eladrin when we have Elves.
Not really, Eladrin and Drow mechanically and thematically fit different areas, espesciacally in 4th ed. Look back at 3.X where originally you had the Elf with his +2 Dex -2 Con and he had to fit into the "Im an awesome Ranger, Im an awesome Archer, Im an awesome Wizard" mold. Until FR came and gave us all the sub races of elves.
Catfolk are thematically different but they wont be different mechanically. The RC shifter really is great stated out catfolk. Anyway, this catfolk thing is drawing the discussion away from the topic. I suggest that if it wants to continue it needs to be moved into a new area.
And since this is a thread for a PHB wishlist, in which potential races are a natural topic, I see no reason why this shouldn't take place in this thread.
I don't think Catfolk add anything to the game, they resemble nothing more than a limited niche, that yes Shifters could fill simply by changing their fluff a bit.
I don't think Kobolds add anything to the game; they resemble nothing more than a limited niche, that yes Goblins could fill simply by changing their fluff a bit.
Yeah .... that's a load of BS in either version.
Kobolds are excellent trap makers that bring in a whole new concept and possibly new rogue build to the game. The addition of powers that relate to making traps could be a very interesting area to explore in a future book that could provide lots of fun for players. Given the tactical nature of fouth ed combat while not keep an open mind to a Kobold trap making ranger or rogue.
And you know that Catfolk would be mechanically the same as a Razorclaw for a fact? No, no you don't. There is absolutely no logical reason whatsoever that they would be mechanically the same.
And since this is a thread for a PHB wishlist, in which potential races are a natural topic, I see no reason why this shouldn't take place in this thread.
There is a logical reason to it though, the RC shifters stats match out to how a cat is. Dex and Wis are the prime stats for the ranger and any hunter build and skills, their skill bonuses also apply to how cats are, agile and sneaky. Really the only thing the RC shifter lacks in terms of cats is
At will Cat Nap Free Action You can sleep for 18 hours at any given time.
If someone came and said we needed a Wolf Man race (Lets call them Lupins) I'd say we have them Longtooth Shifters, just refluff them. It's been done. Sometimes things get beaten to the punch just not fluffed the way we want.
For one, a Catfolk should be something like Str/Dex or Dex/Con, not Dex/Wis.
Skill bonuses could just as easily be Athletics, Perception, or Insight, or even Thievery or Intimidation.
A 7 natural speed, not something gained from a power.
Maybe a balance bonus, or light step feature.
The encounter could be something like a stunning or intimidating roar, an at-will climb ability, or something focusing on the hunt.
It really isn't that difficult to show how different they can be mechanically. You're just not trying.
And oh yeah, in case you missed, my whole point about the Kobolds was that it's just as ludicrous to say a Kobold could be a refluffed Goblin as it is to say a Catfolk could be a refluffed Razorclaw.
I really can't understand how anyone could think the shifting power is in any way appropriate appropriate, frankly.
CelticMutt, where is the different fluff? If the fluff is so different, can you identify it to us so we can analyse or pull it apart?
What? There is no different fluff because it doesn't exist yet. That's an entirely specious argument.
It really isn't that hard to figure this out. Catfolk do not have to be the same, fluffwise or mechanics. No more than any other combination of sdimilar races.
Again, saying one can be refluffed to the other is exactly the same ludicrous claim as saying Drow can be refluffed Elves.
So so wrong.
For one, a Catfolk should be something like Str/Dex or Dex/Con, not Dex/Wis.
Skill bonuses could just as easily be Athletics, Perception, or Insight, or even Thievery or Intimidation.
A 7 natural speed, not something gained from a power.
Maybe a balance bonus, or light step feature.
The encounter could be something like a stunning or intimidating roar, an at-will climb ability, or something focusing on the hunt.
It really isn't that difficult to show how different they can be mechanically. You're just not trying.
And oh yeah, in case you missed, my whole point about the Kobolds was that it's just as ludicrous to say a Kobold could be a refluffed Goblin as it is to say a Catfolk could be a refluffed Razorclaw.
I really can't understand how anyone could think the shifting power is in any way appropriate appropriate, frankly.
That's showing -one- way of making a cat person. Rc Shifters shows another way. Both are valid. Rc Shifter was the one that was made. It's like saying that Gnomes should have cantrips as a racial ability. This is the sort of thing that should be solved by feats, not by a new racial feature.
We also need to avoid too many 7-speed races. We already have 3 – Elves, Thri-kreen, and Gnolls. And Elves and Thri-kreen are both Dex/Wis, so they didn't want to make another Dex/Wis speed 7 race. They still worked in a speedster element with the racial encounter, though.
That's showing -one- way of making a cat person. Rc Shifters shows another way. Both are valid. Rc Shifter was the one that was made. It's like saying that Gnomes should have cantrips as a racial ability. This is the sort of thing that should be solved by feats, not by a new racial feature.
We also need to avoid too many 7-speed races. We already have 3 – Elves, Thri-kreen, and Gnolls. And Elves and Thri-kreen are both Dex/Wis, so they didn't want to make another Dex/Wis speed 7 race. They still worked in a speedster element with the racial encounter, though.
Once again, wrong. Catfolk as a seperate race is just as valid as any other two or more similar races being similar.
But whatever. I'm through. I'm not going to convince yo you're wrongu, and well, I'm actually not wrong. I'll just let WotC decide. I'm fully confidant that they will eventually make one. Probably sooner than you think.
That's showing -one- way of making a cat person. Rc Shifters shows another way. Both are valid. Rc Shifter was the one that was made. It's like saying that Gnomes should have cantrips as a racial ability. This is the sort of thing that should be solved by feats, not by a new racial feature.
We also need to avoid too many 7-speed races. We already have 3 – Elves, Thri-kreen, and Gnolls. And Elves and Thri-kreen are both Dex/Wis, so they didn't want to make another Dex/Wis speed 7 race. They still worked in a speedster element with the racial encounter, though.
Once again, wrong. Catfolk as a seperate race is just as valid as any other two or more similar races being similar.
But whatever. I'm through. I'm not going to convince yo you're wrongu, and well, I'm actually not wrong. I'll just let WotC decide. I'm fully confidant that they will eventually make one. Probably sooner than you think.
I am confused on how Marandahir is wrong when he makes a valid point about the speedster races in general, and points out that the RC build is valid as a Catfolk. Could WotC have done it differently? Sure, but they didn't. Also, your desire to have to catfolk as a hunter race is perfectly addressed in a Dex/Wis bonus as they inherently will get a bonus to the skills needed to be a hunter.
I really haven't seen where anyone has been wrong or right, just conflicting, I and several others see the Catfolk as done with the RC, and really aren't seeing the need for another one.
Once again, wrong. Catfolk as a seperate race is just as valid as any other two or more similar races being similar.
But whatever. I'm through. I'm not going to convince yo you're wrongu, and well, I'm actually not wrong. I'll just let WotC decide. I'm fully confidant that they will eventually make one. Probably sooner than you think.
I'm not saying you're catfolk isn't a valid way of building the race. However, WotC decided to make catfolk differently – and Razorclaws was the decision they made. Personally, I'd be happy with your build, just as happy as my Razorclaw Shifter. But it's different. And WotC decided to do it one way, and they're not going to make two cat-furry races. There was already too much outcry against furries as a race, and the hair was played down with much of the Shifter art to reflect that.
The point here is: Why do we need the race, from a fluff point of view? What new character archetypes does it bring to the game?
I would not be surprised if as Monster Manuals are printed, you will eventually see something which is a "pure" catfolk type creature, possibly fey in origin, with perhaps some /encounter shifting pounce/charge/escape power.
I would imagine that it would hit an MM prior to consideration for a PHB, though. Also, Catgirl would make a great April Dragon race in the spirit of old April dragon mags.
I'm not syaing you're catfolk isn't a valid way of building the race. However, WotC decided to make catfolk differently – and Razorclaws was the decision they made. Personally, I'd be happy with your build, just as happy as my Razorclaw Shifter. But it's different. And WotC decided to do it one way, and they're not going to make two cat-furry races. There was already too much outcry against furries as a race, and the hair was played down with much of the Shifter art to reflect that.
The point here is: Why do we need the race, from a fluff point of view? What new character archetypes does it bring to the game?
...But Razorclaws aren't catfolk. They are toned down lycanthropes. That's what they were building when they made Razorclaws and that is what they got. That doesn't mean they are catfolk or neccesarily take up the entirity of the design space that can be occupied by catfolk. Do you think that longtooth shifters and gnolls are redudant? To me it looks like those two take up design space similarly located to razorclaws and catfolk, yet no one(that I'm aware of) complained about longtooths being unneccesary before they were released.
As for archetypes, that would all depend on the culture tehy gave them. I could reasonably see them coming from the Feywild, Natural World, or even the Astral Sea. I'm not going to speculate as to what their best fit would be since I'm not familiar with their pre-4ed fluff, but I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to give them a unique role.
We also need to avoid too many 7-speed races. We already have 3 – Elves, Thri-kreen, and Gnolls. And Elves and Thri-kreen are both Dex/Wis, so they didn't want to make another Dex/Wis speed 7 race. They still worked in a speedster element with the racial encounter, though.
So you are saying that Razorclaws weren't a speed 7 race because Elves and Thri-kreen were already speed 7 races that had the same stats? o.O Do I need to introduce you to the timeline? :p
For me I would say they are slighty redundent yes, with the option of reflavoring in effect. Though, I feel I need to add this, I am not a fan of making Gnolls a playable race in the slightest, much like drow and various other evil races I just do not like the concept of making them playable.
I understand that there is a desire to have them, and fair enough, there is a much larger desire for Drow, Gnoll, and other evil races made into PCs.
I will say I am much more accepting of Minotaurs then various other evil races but that is because of Dragonlance and how they were portrayed in that setting, I have yet to encounter well written or protrayed "good" or functioning pc gnolls, that's just personal experience though.
Because these are the only Catfolk in D&D that I know of. Or are we talking about something unprecedented? If it's something made up then I would hope there is more to the concept than them just being cat like.
Considering that it looks like Wilden are turning out to just be fey cat people, I really don't see why anyone would feel the need for more cat themed races.
Do you think that longtooth shifters and gnolls are redudant? To me it looks like those two take up design space similarly located to razorclaws and catfolk, yet no one(that I'm aware of) complained about longtooths being unneccesary before they were released.
No, because Hyenas are feliforma, not caniforma. Hyenas thus have less to do with wolves than they do with tigers.
And that's where the comparison comes from – do we need two feliform races that have speed 7?
So you are saying that Razorclaws weren't a speed 7 race because Elves and Thri-kreen were already speed 7 races that had the same stats? o.O Do I need to introduce you to the timeline? :p
No, you don't. but Gnolls were around before Shifters in 4e. That's two of the races. Elves already were Dex/Wis. At that point, it didn't make sense to make another Dex/Wis speed 7 race. There were other ways to emphasise the cat-stuff, though I felt they didn't give enough racial features (which makes all catfolk and dogfolk threads interesting to me, because I can pilfer racial features for Shifters). Thri-kreen, on the other hand, are -very- different from Elves. They almost aren't even humanoid. Thus, we can get away with them being like that, because they embody such a different archetype. Also, it'll be over a year since the last Dex/Wis race, and two years since the last speed 7 race.
Assuming we are getting the Darkity Dark source, I'd imagine we'd get a more official Shadar Kai. We may get Dark Ones, and if we gained more than that, hopefully they would be something semi new and creative. Maybe we'll finally get the Githyanki to make all those clamouring for an Int Con race, (completely ignoring the Wisdom charisma deficit)
You can also get decent mileage and a threefer if you intro Goblin, bugbear, and hobgoblin.
I liked the musings that Necromancer would be a Dark-troller. con charisma/ con int? (aren't gobs con charisma? I forget)
If they put the Yankees in, some class that favors Int/Con, likely Psi, and Possibly another striker.
Blackguard would be a nice Leader or defender. Give him shadow pets similar to the shaman, and make one of his builds mount based and chargey.
I would not mind seeing a shadow type defender where you throw shrouds over your mark, thus obfuscating anyone who isn't you. The punishment would be that if they attacked anyone who wasn't you, they'ed grant combat advantage to everyone. (or maybe just everyone in melee range) Its the Pigpen build!
No, because Hyenas are feliforma, not caniforma. Hyenas thus have less to do with wolves than they do with tigers.
While scientifically true, this has little relevance on common perception. The average individual is more likely to view hyenas, and thus gnolls, as dog-like rather than cat-like. D&D races have little to do with biology or genotypes, and more to do with phenotypes. Thus there is little, if any, conceptual overlap between catfolk and hyenafolk.
Personal what I want out of a catfolk race is something more noble and aloof, a race representative of the kinds of qualities often attributed to domestic cats, in contrast to shifters and gnolls which are more representative of a savage animalistic nature. I see the contrast as being akin to the difference between elves and eladrin. I'd likely want a DEX/CHA race with a racial trait that reduces falling damage (cats always land on their feet).
I've just never understood the desire nor had the inclination to play as them. If they were a more neutral/unaligned race then I could swing that way, but these buggers and several others in their group are usually evil in all forms of D&D.
2. "I always thought the X race was cool"
3. For the heck of it
4. Not interested in elf/dwarf/etc
Since most of these spec threads (this one included) do bring up playable gnolls, goblins, orcs and the like, could someone explain to me the desire to play these races? Even if it's just a quicky explination.
I've just never understood the desire nor had the inclination to play as them. If they were a more neutral/unaligned race then I could swing that way, but these buggers and several others in their group are usually evil in all forms of D&D.
Any sapient creature can choose whether or not it's going to be good or evil. Being a member of 'an evil race' is nonsense.
Since most of these spec threads (this one included) do bring up playable gnolls, goblins, orcs and the like, could someone explain to me the desire to play these races? Even if it's just a quicky explination.
I've just never understood the desire nor had the inclination to play as them. If they were a more neutral/unaligned race then I could swing that way, but these buggers and several others in their group are usually evil in all forms of D&D.
Any sapient creature can choose whether or not it's going to be good or evil. Being a member of 'an evil race' is nonsense.
Quite true. Also, it depends on your world building skills. If you say... all elves (Elf, Drow, Eladrin) were evil in you campaign, Humans were a slave race, and Half Elves are something of enigma... you'd have the Elvenbane books. You can easily say that gnolls are noble nomads of the wilds of you world, coming from a ancient civilization that was destroyed by an angry god and all Deva are really the face of evil with a angelic twist to confront and control the masses; and guess what.... Now you have Evil Deva and Good Gnolls. Having the stats as PC races makes it easier for world building.
Cause really, I hate Elves (pretty much all of them) as this standard fantasy trope, I hate the feeling of the Shifters (cause they seem... so eh. Not enough athromophism traits for me.) I especially hate most of the small races (you know... I have no idea why). So if I wanted to create a world that still functions as action fantasy but lacks... all those played out tropes. I could. That's why people clamor for those races. Fluff is mutable, but crunch is infinitely useful.
No, because Hyenas are feliforma, not caniforma. Hyenas thus have less to do with wolves than they do with tigers.
While scientifically true, this has little relevance on common perception. The average individual is more likely to view hyenas, and thus gnolls, as dog-like rather than cat-like. D&D races have little to do with biology or genotypes, and more to do with phenotypes. Thus there is little, if any, conceptual overlap between catfolk and hyenafolk.
Personal what I want out of a catfolk race is something more noble and aloof, a race representative of the kinds of qualities often attributed to domestic cats, in contrast to shifters and gnolls which are more representative of a savage animalistic nature. I see the contrast as being akin to the difference between elves and eladrin. I'd likely want a DEX/CHA race with a racial trait that reduces falling damage (cats always land on their feet).
Eladrin are pretty. Really pretty. Graceful, beautiful, the archetype of fey beauty. Do they get Charisma? No. They get Intelligence, because they make more archetypal Wizards than Sorcerers. They get Dexterity, because they're nimble and tactile. It makes them good as Rogues as well, and Rangers too.
Gnomes are pretty sneaky. They like to hid. They're commonly thieves. Do they get Dexterity? No. They get Intelligence and Charisma. Makes them good Illusionists and Bards. But they're not so good as Rogues without the excellent feat support that allows them to be.
What do Shifter Catfolk want to be? Bards? Sorcerers? Warlocks? Ardents? Paladins? Rogues? Assassins? Rangers? Monks?
Or Druids? Shamans? Seekers? Invokers? Avengers? Monks? Rangers? Rogues? Assassins?
Do they tend more towards the arcane or the primal? WotC seems to think they tend towards the Primal, and I'd be incllned to agree with them.
And that's where the comparison comes from – do we need two feliform races that have speed 7?
.....I really really really want to counter this argument by comparing the argument with something repeatedly said by a certain poster(here's a hint it involves dragonborn and another race), but if I do I know I'll accidently summon him and I'd rather avoid that. So how about, "Do we really need two fey orgin races with low light vision?" instead. Answer- No, but that doesn't mean we can't have them anyways.
Since most of these spec threads (this one included) do bring up playable gnolls, goblins, orcs and the like, could someone explain to me the desire to play these races? Even if it's just a quicky explination.
I've just never understood the desire nor had the inclination to play as them. If they were a more neutral/unaligned race then I could swing that way, but these buggers and several others in their group are usually evil in all forms of D&D.
Personaly I don't get goblins or orcs myself, they are just mishapen evil humans with bad skin complexion(oh my gosh redundancy, we must kill off all orcs or goblins! :P) to me. Gnolls I vaguely see as interesting although I would never play one myself. However in Eberron I beleive several of these races aren't considered evil, so there is always that.
They're kinda made out to be half Shark, half Man, half Jackal.
In my setting, Gnolls are refluffed as a Land-Shark Barbarian-Thief-Raider people.
They're kinda made out to be half Shark, half Man, half Jackal.
So they're a person and a half?
In my setting, Gnolls are refluffed as a Land-Shark Barbarian-Thief-Raider people.
They're kinda made out to be half Shark, half Man, half Jackal.
Thats sounds pretty awesome.
And that's where the comparison comes from – do we need two feliform races that have speed 7?
.....I really really really want to counter this argument by comparing the argument with something repeatedly said by a certain poster(here's a hint it involves dragonborn and another race), but if I do I know I'll accidently summon him and I'd rather avoid that. So how about, "Do we really need two fey orgin races with low light vision?" instead. Answer- No, but that doesn't mean we can't have them anyways.Since most of these spec threads (this one included) do bring up playable gnolls, goblins, orcs and the like, could someone explain to me the desire to play these races? Even if it's just a quicky explination.
I've just never understood the desire nor had the inclination to play as them. If they were a more neutral/unaligned race then I could swing that way, but these buggers and several others in their group are usually evil in all forms of D&D.
Personaly I don't get goblins or orcs myself, they are just mishapen evil humans with bad skin complexion(oh my gosh redundancy, we must kill off all orcs or goblins! :P) to me. Gnolls I vaguely see as interesting although I would never play one myself. However in Eberron I beleive several of these races aren't considered evil, so there is always that.
Ouch I got owned by in that one, still that was good punch man. Anyway, I hadn't taken Eberron into count or FR which both are alittle more fast and loose with alignment of critters then some settings in the past. Add in Dark Sun where alignment will matter very little as it is much more about survival of the fittest and what it takes to survive day to day.
Moving on, If we assume we get Shadar-Kai and Gnolls in Shadow what would we be looking at as a third race? I can see gnolls getting a slight shadow make over, but I can't really see them giving the shadow treatment to goblins and their ilk. Now if they finally give people the martial controller that they have been asking for, or just a new martial class.
The evil factor: Players the world over love bad guys, or specifically anti-heroes, i know my players do. I haven't been in a single group where at least one player has to be that guy with questionable morals, if not then its the whole group. Some players just like being the odd man out. Whatever everyone else is he wants to be the opposite. "Evil" races appeal to these people. I personally don't care for these races as player characters, it makes the DM's job more difficult. The other players may want to gang up on the poor lil "monster" when all he wanted was to have green skin or yellow fur or sharp fangs... When the group that has a gnoll in it enters a dungeon and they end up facing gnolls does it complicate things? Maybe the DM wont be able to use gnolls as enemies because of it? Does the group yell "Its a bunch of gnolls lets get'em, cept that one" If it were my group i don't think they'd have a problem killing their own kind, they definitely don't have a problem turning on each other. Normally I'd say these races are for killing however these races hold a place near and dear to many a player's heart so perhaps we will be seeing them in players handbooks... but personally I'd rather settle for the entries in the back of a monster manual.
Shadow: I'm sorry, I said it before and nobody agreed but I still think shadow will be only for insiders. Maybe once a year we'll get a new shadow class via insider articles and the rest of the year will be followed up by support for that class. They're going to slowly feed us our shadow goodies. If then later printed in Dragon annual it would totally sell that line of products. I'd rather see some totally new power source like elemental get into a PHB first. I will admit there's a strong chance I'm wrong so its just a theory not a prediction so please dont tear my head off just either agree or respectfully disagree, thank you.
I dunt wut cat foke iz:
I don't see why there's so much opposition to this Catfolk race. It's an archetype that's common enough that people bring them up and try to homebrew them all of the time, and it's an archetype that's not currently filled by any PC race. Yes, Razorclaw Shifters can be reflavored to work, but Elves can also be reflavored to work as Eladrin or Drow. It's just that some stuff isn't going to fit completely right. Is that enough? For some people yes, for some people no.
Would Catfolk have a different flavor than Shifters? Most definitely!
Would Catfolk have different mechanics than Shifters? Seeing as how the Shifter mechanics are means to reflect a transformation, something that has nothing to do with Catfolk, I should hope so! It's be great to give them actual racial features, unlike what the Shifters were dealt.
Would Catfolk have different artwork than Shifters? There may be some resemblace, but it's certainly no worse than the resemblace between Elves and Eladrin, so sure! I should think that Catfolk would be more furry than Shifters are.
Different fluff, different crunch, different appearance; that sounds like enough to justify a new race to me. If you don't like them, that's fine. You never have to play them! But don't pretend like they have no reason to exist just because you don't like them.
I'm personally a fan of the STR/DEX, maybe STR/CHA, conceptualization of the Catfolk, because when I think Catfolk, I think big cats: Lions, Tigers, Jaguars, Panthers, Leopards, etc...
Considering that it looks like Wilden are turning out to just be fey cat people, I really don't see why anyone would feel the need for more cat themed races.
Maybe it has to do with the fact that Wilden are still plants, and that there's only been a single piece of art that shows them with digitigrade legs?
Assuming we are getting the Darkity Dark source, I'd imagine we'd get a more official Shadar Kai.
I still say that is extremely unlikely to happen, since the Shadar-kai are already out in a published book.
And despite the Gnoll needing a revision, I doubt it's going to be put in a hardcover anytime soon.
Sounds to me like those of you who're advocating Catfolk aren't all advocating the same kind of Catfolk, so I think whether it would be a good race or not really depends on what kind of cat people you're talking about.
More the first one, though it's not set in stone.
Kobolds... Monster race, perhaps a write up in Dragon for PC use, it won't be in a player's guide.
Gnoll... Monster race, It (as I heard in this thread) has a writeup in Dragon, it won't be in a player's guide.
Goblin... Monster race, perhaps a write up in Dragon for PC use, it won't be in a player's guide.
Shifter - In Player's Handbook 2, originally from Eberron in the previous system. The current write up has two versions, the Razorclaw and Longtooth. I can see more versions in the future, perhaps in a Shifter racial book, that would represent other animals like the Razorclaw is the feline and the Longtooth is the canine.
Catfolk - This race can be a completely separate entry that is it's own entry, instead of a copy of the Shifter as a couple of posters here want to suggest. I don't see it in a PHB, though. It could be in a Setting Player's guide at some point, though not, obvioulsy, in Darkson this year.
Thri Kreen - Is gonna be in the Darksun Player's Guide.
Dromite. It seems that it isn't in the PHB3 (and the Wilden is the small race? Is there a Small Race?) and I really don't see it making it in another Guide if it isn't in PHB3 or Darksun, since the Psionic power source is giving the main thrust in these books. I suppose it will be a monster race. (Anyone know if they are in any of the MM?)
Elf/Eladrin/Drow/Half-Elf - I like that all the sub race elves have been condensed to these four entries, and that all the elfin theatrics was put to an end. Sorry, but I always got confused between the High, wood, sun, moon, wild, and whatever else elf. (and which one the elf in the PHB was suppose to be.)
Dragonborn/Half-Orc - Dragonborn was put in the first PHB. The Half-Orc, a race I thought was gone for good because of the Dragonborn being created, was put in the PHB2. Both are about the same. I think that the Dragonborn didn't get the acceptance that Wizards hoped it would. The Half Orc, meanwhile, became sort of like the Orcs on a certain game with the initials W.O.W. Cute, cudely, and not so bad once you get to know him.
Yeah...
So, what to look foward to for PHB4?
I think a planetouched type race that is Shadow based for one.
Dromite. It seems that it isn't in the PHB3 (and the Wilden is the small race? Is there a Small Race?)
It has been long established that there will be no small race in the PHB3. There is no reason to continue the trend of one small race per book if there are no interesting small races to introduce.
...and I really don't see it making it in another Guide if it isn't in PHB3 or Darksun, since the Psionic power source is giving the main thrust in these books.
Not necessarily. After all, the Wilden clearly have a Primal bend, and it's still in the PHB3 instead of the PHB2. Furthermore, there's no reason to believe future PHBs won't have Psionic classes, as there are plenty of psionic archetypes that the 4 upcoming classes do not cover very well.
Dromite. It seems that it isn't in the PHB3 (and the Wilden is the small race? Is there a Small Race?)
Seriously? Are you seriously saying this, again?
We've already told you, and I very specifically mean you thaX, this at least once, if not two or three times already. The Wilden is not small. The Shardmind is not small. There is no small race in PHB3.
Why do you keep asking the exact same question? Are you really that forgetful? Or as I suspect, are you doing this just to irritate people?
Oh wait ....
Dragonborn/Half-Orc - Dragonborn was put in the first PHB. The Half-Orc, a race I thought was gone for good because of the Dragonborn being created, was put in the PHB2. Both are about the same. I think that the Dragonborn didn't get the acceptance that Wizards hoped it would.
Yeah, it's clear that you're doing it to irritate people, since you decided to dredge up that pile of nonsense again.
Dromite. It seems that it isn't in the PHB3 (and the Wilden is the small race? Is there a Small Race?)
Seriously? Are you seriously saying this, again?
We've already told you, and I very specifically mean you thaX, this at least once, if not two or three times already. The Wilden is not small. The Shardmind is not small. There is no small race in PHB3.
Why do you keep asking the exact same question? Are you really that forgetful? Or as I suspect, are you doing this just to irritate people?
I thought that this was familiar.
From last week:
So is the Wilden the small race, or the Shardmind?
What happened to the Dromite?
So is the Wilden the small race, or the Shardmind?
What happened to the Dromite?
Wilden are Medium, Shardmind are believed to be medium (from leeked character pages plus the 1 picture we have).
There is no small race in PHBIII.
So is the Wilden the small race, or the Shardmind?
What happened to the Dromite?
There is no small race, and the Dromites were never even in consideration for a rumor of being in the PHB3, except by you.
Psionic power source book, and the Dromite not even considered?
Keep believing that, Mutt.
Not having a small race after the first two books had them (Halfling in the first, Gnome in the second) seems a bit out of character.
Dromite. It seems that it isn't in the PHB3 (and the Wilden is the small race? Is there a Small Race?)
It has been long established that there will be no small race in the PHB3. There is no reason to continue the trend of one small race per book if there are no interesting small races to introduce....and I really don't see it making it in another Guide if it isn't in PHB3 or Darksun, since the Psionic power source is giving the main thrust in these books.
Not necessarily. After all, the Wilden clearly have a Primal bend, and it's still in the PHB3 instead of the PHB2. Furthermore, there's no reason to believe future PHBs won't have Psionic classes, as there are plenty of psionic archetypes that the 4 upcoming classes do not cover very well.
unless they plan on, as with martial, trying to lump extra architypes into the 4 existing classes. I don't think thats gona happen to psionics however, at least i hope not? Psionics is much more broader than martial as a concept but it seems like the wilder is lost to us now that the ardent is officially its successor. Here's a thought thats helped me cope with that loss. we dont know what feats are in PHB3 beyond heroic tier. maybe there'll be a paragon feat that lets augmentable psionic classes sacrifice some health to augment their powers when they have no power points left. thatll allow us to make something that feels like the wilder. i could settle for that. I think we'll see dromites whenever they decide to give us more psionic classes too.
I was hoping that the Pyrokineticist would make it somehow, either as a full class or a PP. With my luck, it will be an Epic Destiny.
...it seems like the wilder is lost to us now that the ardent is officially its successor.
The Ardent is not an adequte successor for the Wilder. At best, it's an interesting mix of the old Telepath and Psychic Warrior, but Wilder it is not. I think that we still have plenty of hope for a second ranged implement psionic class that doesn't have the same flavor as the psion has. If you want an analogy, the Psion is like the Wizard, while what I'm looking for is more like the Sorcerer.
I will keep asking and lamenting about the small race...
Why? You already know the answer. Feel more than free to make suggestions for the future, but acting ignorant about the current state of things is very close to trollish.
...the Dromite was the perfect choice for all the right reasons.
The problem with the Dromite is that nobody knew or cared about it. In a lot of ways, the Gnome was better off than the Dromite is. At least people knew about the Gnome even though they didn't care about it. But just like there was still hope for the Gnome, there may yet be hope for the Dromite if they redo them and actually make them interesting.
I was hoping that the Pyrokineticist would make it somehow, either as a full class or a PP. With my luck, it will be an Epic Destiny.
I would be more than willing to bet that if it's not a Psion PP in the PHB3, it'll be a PP in Psionic Power. The concept is much too narrow for a full class, however.
Frankly, the only real room for another Striker that I can see would either be a kineticist, a psionic shape-shifter, or a Psychoporter - one that uses psionics to teleport themselves, others, or pieces of others.
I will keep asking and lamenting about the small race, since the Dromite was the perfect choice for all the right reasons.
Not really.
You may be right, and it will be around at some point, but I don't see it. I think the Tibbet has a better chance.
I ... have no idea what you're referring to here.
i want to believe you're right Crimson_C but all my arguments in the past have been met with "lets not have psionic X"
But what I'm looking for isn't any more "Psionic Sorcerer" than the Psion is "Psionic Wizard". It's just an analogy because there are some thematic similarities, somebody who studied and trained for their power as opposed to somebody who was gifted (or cursed) with a talent for power. I'd personally prefer that this new class stay away from all of that silly Pyro-, Cryo-, Electro- nonsense and leave that to the arcanist or maybe some Paragon Paths. Instead, I'd like to see this class do what I want from a psychic character: Some ESP (including Precognition, to reflect the archetype of the cursed Cassandra), some Telepathy, and some Telekinesis. If this class turns out to be a striker, and I think that a good idea, then I think that a whole lot of focus on Telekinesis would be great!
The problem is that the Ardent is the spiritual sucessor to the Wilder in terms of mindset. The Wilder was always the spontaneous Psionic character, the emotional one that drew on their raw feelings and turned it into power. That's what the Ardent does, only with a big implement called a weapon to pull off their powers.
Psion moved away from all those Disciplines, letting other classes embody some of them, thus allowing it to become something other than the Psionic Wizard.
Ardent is like a fusion of 3.5e Ardent, early 4e Telepath and Empath concepts, and 3.5e Wilder.
By the way, I always liked the Dromite. But like the Catfolk, I can't justify them as a 4e race. Unlike the Catfolk, the Dromite might be able to become something new and awesome if it underwent an heavy revision.
Regardless, Maenads will be forgotten, and Elans really don't deserve a race slot, but I could see them as a Spellscarred-like feat chain.
The problem is that the Ardent is the spiritual sucessor to the Wilder in terms of mindset.
But that's not the only thing that the Wilder consisted of or was good for representing. The Ardent just doesn't represent the same sorts of characters that the Wilder did, if for no other obvious reason than that the Ardent is up in melee using weapons, but even if the Ardent were a ranged implement class, I still wouldn't have the class I'm looking for, because what I'm looking for isn't an empath. We have enough telepaths (Psion and Ardent and Battlemind!?). I want some telekinesis, and I want some precognition, and I want to be able to get it from somebody other than the Psion.
The Wilder was always the spontaneous Psionic character, the emotional one that drew on their raw feelings and turned it into power. That's what the Ardent does, only with a big implement called a weapon to pull off their powers.
I honestly don't see that much of a similarity. I get that the Ardent has the natural talent thing going on, but I think that the Ardent is more of a Psychic Warrior / Wilder mix (and I'll give it the dignity of not comparing it to any of the Complete Psionics classes), and because of this, it's just too difficult to just pull out what I wanted from the Wilder (not that it's all there to begin with, because it isn't).
It still has a better chance than the Dromite. (since the Dromite didn't make the PHB3)
Why exactly is it that you think that it's never going to come out if it doesn't come out in the PHB3? There will be other PHBs, and chances are that they will have Psionic classes and allow for Psionic-themed races. Hell, the Kalashtar came out already, and Psionics isn't even out yet! And the Wilden is coming out now despite The PHB2 and the bulk of the Primal power source having come out quite a while ago!
The Half Orc, despite all reason, is put in the PHB2, still doesn't have the Monk or any way to do unarmed combat, and only has 6 (5 with a double entry with the Shifter) races.
Now there are only 4 races in the PHB3, and hybrid rules that may have an adverse effect on multiclassing (no one will mess with the feats after this) and they bring back an aspect of the Power Points. Oh, and no Dromite.
I want the little guys, so it is certain they will never be.
back on topic, werent threre more shifters in 3.5e eberon? maybe we'll get padfoot and cliffwalk shifters in a future PHB or are the two we got all there is now?
They drop the Gnome from the first PHB
And brought it back in the second, better than ever.
replace the Half Orc with the Dragonborn
There was no replacement. There was the inclusion of the Dragonborn and the exclusion of the Half-Orc, but there's no reason to believe that one was a replacement for the other.
and put in a class called the Warlock that is nothing like the class from the previous system, cept for the at will power.
The Warlock can do everything that it used to do. They just expanded its theme to broaden its appeal and make it able to represent more than one character archetype.
The Half Orc, despite all reason, is put in the PHB2
Why is this "despite all reason"? Did you not want us to have the Half-Orc?
still doesn't have the Monk or any way to do unarmed combat
Which you're going to get.
hybrid rules that may have an adverse effect on multiclassing (no one will mess with the feats after this)
I disagree. I continue to have character concepts much better covered by the existing multiclassing feats than by hybrid classing.
and they bring back an aspect of the Power Points.
Is this one a problem in some way?
Oh, and no Dromite.
I want the little guys, so it is certain they will never be.
But you have everything else that you've been wanting! I feel like you're complaing that your lobster was brought to you on a silver platter instead of a gold platter and completely forgetting that you have your lobster and it's going to taste exactly the same.
The problem is that the Ardent is the spiritual sucessor to the Wilder in terms of mindset. The Wilder was always the spontaneous Psionic character, the emotional one that drew on their raw feelings and turned it into power. That's what the Ardent does, only with a big implement called a weapon to pull off their powers.
And the big implement called a weapon is the problem. It sounds cliche to say so, but here me out.
Imagine if I were introducing a new class, the Cleric. You are excited! It is the old divine caster reborn! It will focus on healing and buffing and radiant light, all the things you remember and love!
And then I hand you.....the Strength Cleric. And ONLY the Strength Cleric.
And from then on, anytime someone mentions "I would like the priest archetype" someone says "But we have the Strength Cleric, it absorbed the divine support character theme!" To which, one would probably respond "Yeah, absorbed some, but where's the rest of it?"
So my reaction to the Ardent bieng the Empathic Psionicist is ......where's the rest of it?
The Bard can do implement, ranged, and melee. The Artificer can do implement, ranged, and melee. The Cleric can do implement and melee. The Shaman is a summoner or an implement caster. Even the Warlord has gained ranged powers. But the Ardent.......is melee. Only melee.
So everytime someone says "I want to play an empathic support character", they are told "Great. Here's your stick, start hitting people."
It shoehorns the theme into a single mechanical facet, one that is as unnecessary as it is unfulfilling for encompassing all the thematic archetypes that emotional support entail.
The problem is that the Ardent is the spiritual sucessor to the Wilder in terms of mindset. The Wilder was always the spontaneous Psionic character, the emotional one that drew on their raw feelings and turned it into power. That's what the Ardent does, only with a big implement called a weapon to pull off their powers.
And the big implement called a weapon is the problem. It sounds cliche to say so, but here me out.
Imagine if I were introducing a new class, the Cleric. You are excited! It is the old divine caster reborn! It will focus on healing and buffing and radiant light, all the things you remember and love!
And then I hand you.....the Strength Cleric. And ONLY the Strength Cleric.
And from then on, anytime someone mentions "I would like the priest archetype" someone says "But we have the Strength Cleric, it absorbed the divine support character theme!" To which, one would probably respond "Yeah, absorbed some, but where's the rest of it?"
So my reaction to the Ardent bieng the Empathic Psionicist is ......where's the rest of it?
The Bard can do implement, ranged, and melee. The Artificer can do implement, ranged, and melee. The Cleric can do implement and melee. The Shaman is a summoner or an implement caster. Even the Warlord has gained ranged powers. But the Ardent.......is melee. Only melee.
So everytime someone says "I want to play an empathic support character", they are told "Great. Here's your stick, start hitting people."
It shoehorns the theme into a single mechanical facet, one that is as unnecessary as it is unfulfilling for encompassing all the thematic archetypes that emotional support entail.
Hence why we don't need a new Empath class, we just need a new build that uses implements. Problem solved.
thax none of your reasons make any sense?
back on topic, werent threre more shifters in 3.5e eberon? maybe we'll get padfoot and cliffwalk shifters in a future PHB or are the two we got all there is now?
Other shifters seem to be feats for the current ones.
Hence why we don't need a new Empath class, we just need a new build that uses implements. Problem solved.
Yeah, problem solved... for the Empath. But that still leaves (at least) Precognition and Telekinesis out in the cold, and the way that the Ardent has been flavored, there's no reason to give it those disciplines. The Ardent is an Empath and a Telepath and to a lesser extent a Teleporter, and that's fine, but it's not what I'm looking for, and it's not enough to suggest that it ate the entire Wilder.
Hence why we don't need a new Empath class, we just need a new build that uses implements. Problem solved.
Yeah, problem solved... for the Empath. But that still leaves (at least) Precognition and Telekinesis out in the cold.
New classes? Who's to say there's only going to be 4 Psionic classes?
I want to see the Lurk, and I could see Precognition rolled into it – you lurk in the back of their mind, reading what cards they're going to play as if you had the Millennium Eye. Oh wait… this is D&D, but the comparison stands. Probably high Wisdom.
The other Lurk build could be more stealthy, erasing yourself from existance, or so it seems to your target. Then you get massive Combat Advantage against the enemy. Probably high Dexterity.
I could see the whole thing as a Charisma class, with either Wisdom or Dexterity as secondaries.
I want to see a Wisdom-based Psionic class though, and not just treat Wisdom like Primal treats Constitution (and we -know- Seekers will have to have a third build based off Constitution to continue -that- trend).
Telekinesis? Play with Psion for now. You might get more of the telekinesis stuff later, but why are you so upset with the Kineticist Psion? We've barely even seen the build, but it looks to be good from spoilers.
New classes? Who's to say there's only going to be 4 Psionic classes?
Uh, yeah, that's exactly what I'm suggesting! That's what I want to see from a new class because I don't see it in any of the current psionic classes, and I speculate that I'll get it in the PHB4. =)
Telekinesis? Play with Psion for now. You might get more of the telekinesis stuff later, but why are you so upset with the Kineticist Psion? We've barely even seen the build, but it looks to be good from spoilers.
I'm not upset with it at all. It will probably be great at being what it is, and I'll probably love it! But it's the Wizard, and I'd also want the Sorcerer. I want to have both.
The advantage the Warlock had was held spells that effected him and having power ups for his blast. That has been tempered down a bit (some of it was Ritualized like the Wizard) and it is just a Wizard with a different role now. With Pacts, which brings another aspect of the class I don't want to talk about.
Sigh, it is just that some of the things that have been done in this new edition seems to go to far the other way, to balance for this and that. The Parcel System making forever poor characters, Skill Challenges that have few explanations and seem to be missing a part of the overall experience, and cookie cutter chart for the classes. I like the classes themselves, but having one chart to flow all the classes to seemed like a short cut for the designers rather than a design choice.
I still like it better than the power creep and loss that the previous system started to turn into, and the fact that Vacian Casting is (mostly) gone. That is worth the switch right there. I have just been disappointed with some of the poor choices.
New classes? Who's to say there's only going to be 4 Psionic classes?
Uh, yeah, that's exactly what I'm suggesting! That's what I want to see from a new class because I don't see it in any of the current psionic classes, and I speculate that I'll get it in the PHB4. =)Telekinesis? Play with Psion for now. You might get more of the telekinesis stuff later, but why are you so upset with the Kineticist Psion? We've barely even seen the build, but it looks to be good from spoilers.
I'm not upset with it at all. It will probably be great at being what it is, and I'll probably love it! But it's the Wizard, and I'd also want the Sorcerer.
The problem with Wilder was the same problem with Sorcerer: it's fluff was that it spontaneously casted, and didn't have to have the discipline of it's Intelligent companion. With EVERYONE spontaneously casting in 4e, Sorcerer had to wretch out a niche as dealing with wild, chaotic forces of the blood and play off that. This came out of the vague reference that Sorcerers were descended from Draconic bloodlines. What fluff did Wilders have? They were wild, emotional beings. What fluff do 4e Ardent's have? The same.
Just with swords.
We don't want a grid, not even one that isn't Power Source - Role.
Too often in the past was Psionic "Psionic Version of X."
Ardent and Battlemind fill out niches that other classes don't have by being unique. It's like a Sorcerer to the Psion that uses weapons and inspi-heals like a Warlord and screws with your oponent's mind like a Bard. It's a -very- compelling class concept, and I really don't get why people play it down as the Psionic Warlord.
By the way, thaX: Soulknife might be dead. There might be a PPath. We don't know.
Not 4e Class in PH3 that's like it though. We might even get a Monk build in Psionic Power. We shall see.
The EPH corrected a lot of the problems, and made the classes more in tune with the existing ones, but the whole Power Point idea was another mechanic added to an already stretched system. It shortchanged wizards, unless you went ahead and used the Mana Points in the UA to go along with it. It is a bad memory.
. . . Are you serious? The EPH and psionic classes were a lot more balanced than the casters in the PHB. The Wizard was more powerful than any of the Psionic classes hands down, and the MP variant was actually a nerf to the Wizard.
/snip
/snip
Hence why we don't need a new Empath class, we just need a new build that uses implements. Problem solved.
Yes. That would solve the problem. And it should have been done yesterday.
Moreso, the problem should never have existed in the first place; just as the Bard had both Valor and Cunning builds, the Ardent should have had capabilities for both right from the beginning. Right now, we are waiting for the mere possibility within Psionic Power of a fix to allow even the most basic of Empathic Mentalist themes to be playable.
Because, well....name three characters from literature that the Ardent perfectly personifies. I will be you that I can name five for each that share the emotional theme, but are impossible thanks to the weapon requirement.
The Ardent, thus far, represents a reversal of the mechanical progress of the Leader role toward versatility, and is currently the single most arbitrarily constrained of the support classes. So yes, a future build would fix the problem. And it cannot arrive soon enough, because this throwback is absurdly limited.
I really have trouble thinking about new Psionic classes when the ones we have are so lacking, I think we should be trying to figure out how to fix the ones they gave us before hoping they give us any more.
People are saying they want psionic archetypes like the lurk, wilder, shaper and soulknife; yet classes like Battlemind and Ardent are so desperate for some archetypes to save them from their Psionic X issues, I think we should integrating those archetypes into the classes we have to make them more stronger concepts.
it's fluff was that it spontaneously casted
No, that was it's crunch. It's fluff was that its power cane as a natural talent instead of as something that needed to be worked for. It's not a trope that D&D came up with just for the sorcerer either.
With EVERYONE spontaneously casting in 4e, Sorcerer had to wretch out a niche as dealing with wild, chaotic forces of the blood and play off that.
Which was the same fluff as it had before, only with mechanical changes to make it different from the Wizard in other ways.
What fluff did Wilders have? They were wild, emotional beings.
But that's not all. They were the Psion's equivalent of the Wizard's Sorcerer, and that's a trope that I like and would like to be able to play as without the need for homebrewing or house-ruling variants.
What fluff do 4e Ardent's have? The same.
Just with swords.
But that's not at all true. The Ardent can only do a small portion of what the Wilder could do, even if you ignore the weapon part. I don't see the Ardent doing any significant Telekinesis or Precognition, and I don't see any reason for it to.
We don't want a grid, not even one that isn't Power Source - Role.
Nobody is suggesting that.
Too often in the past was Psionic "Psionic Version of X."
If you think that's what I'm looking for, then you don't understand. What I want isn't any more a Psionic Sorcerer than the Psion is a Psionic Wizard. It's just a useful analogy because they have similar differences.
The EPH corrected a lot of the problems, and made the classes more in tune with the existing ones, but the whole Power Point idea was another mechanic added to an already stretched system. It shortchanged wizards, unless you went ahead and used the Mana Points in the UA to go along with it. It is a bad memory.
. . . Are you serious? The EPH and psionic classes were a lot more balanced than the casters in the PHB. The Wizard was more powerful than any of the Psionic classes hands down, and the MP variant was actually a nerf to the Wizard.
To each other, yes, but not compared to the classes that came before them. They were a lot better than the broken that was the Psionics Handbook, but not perfect.
The Wizard not having to mem a spell more than once helped a lot more to counteract the need to upscale spells with more mana. Fire and Forget was the bane of all Wizards, and I will not miss it.
Precognition: I have a feeling that this psionic mainstay (and Clairsentience) will see use in the rituals provided in PHB3. May not be exactly what your looking for I admit.
That could be acceptable. I really wish that they wouldn't use the word "Clairsentience" anymore, because they clearly have no idea what it means, but other than that, yes, that could be acceptable.
Telekinesis: There is an entire build of the Psion dedicated to this.
I've been over this. The Psion is the Wizard. I want the Sorcerer. There's no reason that the Psion should be the only place that I can go to if I want some hardcore Telekinesis.
Wilder is also now a template for Dark Sun. I think it highly unlikely they would use the name if they intended to make the class...
I know, and I don't care. It's the archetype I'm after, not the name. I always thought that the name "Wilder" was silly anyways, so good riddance.
Because, well....name three characters from literature that the Ardent perfectly personifies. I will be you that I can name five for each that share the emotional theme, but are impossible thanks to the weapon requirement.
Simon (and arguably Kamina, but he's more of a Bravura Warlord).
Any Jedi or Sith (and yes, Swordmage works too, but the Ardent gets more of the mystical warrior-monk feel that deals with emotions or the control of them).
Glissa Sunseeker of Mirrodin Cycle.
Natsuki Sasahara of Hyper Police.
Kazuki Mutou of Buso Renkin.
Gai Shishio (Evoluder Gai version) of GaoGaiGar.
EDITs:
Sailor Moon.
Lucy from Elfen Lied (could be done with a Battlemind, though; but she works really well as an Ardent).
Raharu from FLCL.
If you think that's what I'm looking for, then you don't understand. What I want isn't any more a Psionic Sorcerer than the Psion is a Psionic Wizard. It's just a useful analogy because they have similar differences.
I just think the better option would be to make it so the Ardent can do what you're talking about, it's less cluttered that way.
If you think that's what I'm looking for, then you don't understand. What I want isn't any more a Psionic Sorcerer than the Psion is a Psionic Wizard. It's just a useful analogy because they have similar differences.
I just think the better option would be to make it so the Ardent can do what you're talking about, it's less cluttered that way.
Agreed Mcnancy. Though I disagree about battlemind and ardent being Psionic X right now. There's a lot going on for them in terms of power colouration.
Simon (and arguably Kamina, but he's more of a Bravura Warlord).
Any Jedi or Sith (and yes, Swordmage works too, but the Ardent gets more of the mystical warrior-monk feel that deals with emotions or the control of them).
Glissa Sunseeker of Mirrodin Cycle.
Natsuki Sasahara of Hyper Police.
Kazuki Mutou of Buso Renkin.
Gai Shishio (Evoluder Gai version) of GaoGaiGar.
Don't forget about Sailor Moon!
I just think the better option would be to make it so the Ardent can do what you're talking about, it's less cluttered that way.
That would just clutter the Ardent, though. Right now, that's not what the Ardent is about, and I don't see any reason to make that be what the Ardent is about. The Ardent is fine as-is as far as thematics go. It's just not what I'm looking for. That's okay. It's okay that what I'm looking for doesn't exist yet and isn't something that any of the current classes are up to the task of ever adequately covering. All I'm saying that I'd like for it to exist at some point and that I think it's an obvious choice for a common archetype to look at for a PHB4 psionic class.
Precognition: I have a feeling that this psionic mainstay (and Clairsentience) will see use in the rituals provided in PHB3. May not be exactly what your looking for I admit.
That could be acceptable. I really wish that they wouldn't use the word "Clairsentience" anymore, because they clearly have no idea what it means, but other than that, yes, that could be acceptable.Telekinesis: There is an entire build of the Psion dedicated to this.
I've been over this. The Psion is the Wizard. I want the Sorcerer. There's no reason that the Psion should be the only place that I can go to if I want some hardcore Telekinesis.Wilder is also now a template for Dark Sun. I think it highly unlikely they would use the name if they intended to make the class...
I know, and I don't care. It's the archetype I'm after, not the name. I always thought that the name "Wilder" was silly anyways, so good riddance.
I know you addressed the telekinesis, and many other points I made in my post, I was trying to find something in the middle of my post and a lot changed while I couldn't find it. I appologize.
That would just clutter the Ardent, though. Right now, that's not what the Ardent is about, and I don't see any reason to make that be what the Ardent is about. The Ardent is fine as-is as far as thematics go. It's just not what I'm looking for.
Agreed Mcnancy. Though I disagree about battlemind and ardent being Psionic X right now. There's a lot going on for them in terms of power colouration.
IMO those classes are going to need something, come Psionic Power they will need to prove themselves. I think Soulknife would make a great addition to the Battlemind as a build, I think the Ardent would be really cool if it got some ranged and area attacks to make it more Wildery, then I think they would be really making a name for themselves and would be hard for anyone to call them Psionic X, maybe Psionic X/Y+Z but thats the best any new class can do
Lurk would be best as a Rogue PP I think, and Shaper I see as a Elemental class
I think the Ardent would be really cool if it got some ranged and area attacks to make it more Wildery...
That would be absolutely great, but it still wouldn't be nearly enough to cover the Wilder, and it still wouldn't be nearly enough cover what I'm looking for from a Psionic class.
That would be absolutely great, but it still wouldn't be nearly enough to cover the Wilder, and it still wouldn't be nearly enough cover what I'm looking for from a Psionic class.
Enlighten me as to how it would fall short? There's nothing I can't fix, not for you Crim.
There's nothing I can't fix, not for you Crim.
Well that's very sweet of you. =)
Enlighten me as to how it would fall short?
It would fall short because a natural telant for empathy and telepathy isn't the only things that I went to the Wilder for. A major reason I went to the Wilder was for Telekinesis, the kind that characters discover that they've been gifted with (or, in many cases, cursed with) as a natural talent as opposed to the kind that characters meditate and train their minds to obtain (aka Psion). If I took other powers, it was also useful for the Cassandra archetype, the character who sees visions of the future but wishes that they didn't, having this talent naturally as opposed to actively working for it (aka Psion, though this could possibly work through rituals).
Telekinesis and Precognition are not a part of the Ardent's flavor, and there's need to force them to be after the fact. It would just clutter the Ardent when there's no need to do so. Creating a new class to cover this archetype that I'm looking for is both simple and intuitive, so I don't see any reason to try to force it into with any of the current Psionic classes when it doesn't belong to any of them and shouldn't belong to any of them.
That's what I meant about Sorcerers – no longer do they mirror Wizards, but with versatility over sheer number. They need an established theme for their powers.
How is Telekinesis an overriding theme?
It's not necessarily. It's just something that I like, something that I want, something I can't get from anywhere right now, and something I used to go to the Wilder to get. It's just the easiest example of why the Ardent isn't enough to cover the Wilder, and it's the example most relevant to my interests.
That's what I meant about Sorcerers – no longer do they mirror Wizards, but with versatility over sheer number. They need an established theme for their powers.
That's fine. I'm not contesting that at all.
There was no replacement. There was the inclusion of the Dragonborn and the exclusion of the Half-Orc, but there's no reason to believe that one was a replacement for the other.
Remember who you're talking to. thaX is the guy that thought the Dragonborn and Half-orc are the same race with slightly different fluff, and were thusly interchangeable.
And, oh yeah - orc **** babies.
Why is this "despite all reason"? Did you not want us to have the Half-Orc?
See above. But yes, that's exactly it - he thinks having both races is a waste of space.
The Power Points may not be a problem if done right, but it was power creep in the previous edition, and not very balanced. The EPH corrected a lot of the problems, and made the classes more in tune with the existing ones, but the whole Power Point idea was another mechanic added to an already stretched system. It shortchanged wizards, unless you went ahead and used the Mana Points in the UA to go along with it. It is a bad memory.
If by not very balanced you mean more balanced than the blatantly overpowered Wizards, Clerics, and Druids were throughout all of 3e/3.5e, sure.
Does anyone know of any of this classes resembles the Soulknife at all?
The DDi exclusive Assassin + Shadowblade PP.
Any Jedi or Sith (and yes, Swordmage works too, but the Ardent gets more of the mystical warrior-monk feel that deals with emotions or the control of them).
The Battlemind feels more like a Jedi than either the Swordmage or Ardent.
Telekinesis and Precognition are not a part of the Ardent's flavor, and there's need to force them to be after the fact.
I think precognition would not be too much of a stretch for Ardent, but the Telekinesis would feel quite forced for sure.
Let me think about this one... I will figure out something...
thaX is the guy with a Ph.D in Being Deliberately Obtuse.
*whistles*
...
I got nothin...
The only solution I came up with that I could get behind wasr making the Psion a V class and have the other stat using side of the class flavored as a naturally talented Wilder type. I suppose it could just be a build if you don't mind the whole Int thing, which I really don't.
Because, well....name three characters from literature that the Ardent perfectly personifies. I will be you that I can name five for each that share the emotional theme, but are impossible thanks to the weapon requirement.
/snip
Sailor Moon threw her Tiara. That's a ranged power.
Still, most of the list reads off as "people who use emotion to fuel their powers", aka Simon's Spiral Power beefing up his Gurren, or Kazuki's lance being enhanced by his mental state. What they are NOT, for the most part is someone who uses supernatural control over emotion to enhance the capabilities of everyone around them while wielding a melee weapon, which is what the Ardent is. Jedi consular would qualify, but merely using emotion to fuel your own abilities would not.
But since I said I would go through with it...Zhaan from Farscape, Xavier and Empath from the X-men, Ouka Hayasaka from Busou Renkin, John Coffey from The Green Mile, Diana Troi and The Empath from Star Trek, Hiro Nakamura's mother from Heroes, Raw from Tin Man, all wizards from the Sword of Truth series during healing, Micaiah from Fire Emblem, Raven from Teen Titans, the Blessed from Deadlands, ......heck, the entire Empath page of TV Tropes, since that's where I'm pulling stuff from anyway. All these things take the emotional and empathy idea, which the Ardent is currently squatting upon, but go with the pure mentalist route, since it is the power source of the freakin' mind. Constraining that trope into melee mechanics is both unnecessary and foolish, as you might have noticed my assertion as I continue to beat this undead horse.
Aside from More Casterz, I'd like to see Elocater, Lurk, Seer, Nomad, and Uncarnate themes, not necessarily all tied together. Aside from the earlier things I had mentioned about Dreams and Precognition, a PP or ED that transcends the limits of the body to become a mental being would be rather awesome.
There's nothing I can't fix, not for you Crim.
Well that's very sweet of you. =)Enlighten me as to how it would fall short?
It would fall short because a natural telant for empathy and telepathy isn't the only things that I went to the Wilder for. A major reason I went to the Wilder was for Telekinesis, the kind that characters discover that they've been gifted with (or, in many cases, cursed with) as a natural talent as opposed to the kind that characters meditate and train their minds to obtain (aka Psion). If I took other powers, it was also useful for the Cassandra archetype, the character who sees visions of the future but wishes that they didn't, having this talent naturally as opposed to actively working for it (aka Psion, though this could possibly work through rituals).
Telekinesis and Precognition are not a part of the Ardent's flavor, and there's need to force them to be after the fact. It would just clutter the Ardent when there's no need to do so. Creating a new class to cover this archetype that I'm looking for is both simple and intuitive, so I don't see any reason to try to force it into with any of the current Psionic classes when it doesn't belong to any of them and shouldn't belong to any of them.
The Psion now incorporates the possibility for natural talent. The clash description mentions being some whose mental talent has newly flowered. On the same note: most Ardents are natural talent, but some are trained. WOTC seems to have kept the possibilities of trained and talent for each class IMO. SO it would be possible to play a telekinetic psion who has just tapped into their talents.
The Psion now incorporates the possibility for natural talent... SO it would be possible to play a telekinetic psion who has just tapped into their talents.
There are a lot of reasons for why this just isn't adequate enough for me, not the least of which is the INT focus. Implementing a house rule variant that uses CHA in place of INT might work sort of, but it's still not a perfect solution. Frankly, it would be exactly as good a solution as switching INT for CHA on the Wizard before we got the Sorcerer, or if you're suggesting I just use the Psion as-is, that would be just like using the Wizard exactly as it was to represent the Sorcerer archetype, INT and all.
There are a lot of reasons for why this just isn't adequate enough for me, not the least of which is the INT focus. Implementing a house rule variant that uses CHA in place of INT might work sort of, but it's still not a perfect solution. Frankly, it would be exactly as good a solution as switching INT for CHA on the Wizard before we got the Sorcerer, or if you're suggesting I just use the Psion as-is, that would be just like using the Wizard exactly as it was to represent the Sorcerer archetype, INT and all.
Here, here!
I behind you Crims. I too would love to have a wilder class, and while it might be possible to make it just a build psion or ardent, both would fall short of realizing the concepts full potential.
Not to hijack your moment in the "one person's class concept always hijacks speculation threads" spotlight, but for me the criticism of your concept for wilder feels much the same as suggestions that my concept for a swashbuckler can be achieved by refluffing the fighter or repurposing the rogue (ditto for the godborn). It's all well and good to use such measure as interim solutions in the absence of a dedicated class, but that does not make such solutions desirable, nor does it invalidate the potential for such classes to be implemented in the future.
Personally, I have trouble understanding why such concepts generate such a negative attitude. It's almost as if people feel personally threatened by the merest contemplation of such concepts. Fortunately I'm fairly trusting that the folks at WotC are more level headed. People tried to say that there was no need for separate wizard and sorcerer archetypes in 4e, and such sentiments were as wrong then as they are now.
Race
Lupin - was in the dragon for 3.5, Basically half-wolf, half-human.
Gnoll - I just want them to be finished, as they are missing thier racial paragon class.
Kobold - With the new Martial Power 2, my dreams of a kobold sniper may become even better.
Classes
Swashbuckler - I know that you could "fluffersize" but really.. you cant. If i went fighter, I'd have to pour points into STR to hit things. Thus making my Dex likely to suffer. If my Dex suffers, then i'll have to wear heavy armor. If i have to wear heavy armor, then the whole agility thing dies off. Then there is fluffersizeing the rogue. Which of course still doesn't exactly work.
Fluffing only goes so far. Because eitherway I'm screwed, even with a hybrid class. It would be like me playing a wizard and wacking stuff with my stick to be an eldritch knight and attempting to defend with my wizardy hp. Just doesn't work right.
For book 4..
Race
Lupin - was in the dragon for 3.5, Basically half-wolf, half-human.
Trouble maker ;)
Classes
Swashbuckler - I know that you could "fluffersize" but really.. you cant. If i went fighter, I'd have to pour points into STR to hit things. Thus making my Dex likely to suffer. If my Dex suffers, then i'll have to wear heavy armor. If i have to wear heavy armor, then the whole agility thing dies off. Then there is fluffersizeing the rogue. Which of course still doesn't exactly work.
Fluffing only goes so far. Because eitherway I'm screwed, even with a hybrid class. It would be like me playing a wizard and wacking stuff with my stick to be an eldritch knight and attempting to defend with my wizardy hp. Just doesn't work right.
There is a lot of room to work with in making a swash. Lots of mobility, a potential for crowd control based on the confusion he causes in his wake, at-will movement utilities.
I think if done properly, the Swash could make a decent second martial defender, with potential to be a good controlly or Leader second. You could really go out on the crazy limb and make them Charisma first, which seems odd for a martial, unless you consider the bulk of their ability to based in flash and fients.
They should not have Striker built into them, cause thematically, the swashbuckler is all about the long drawn-out dueling scene, much more befitting the staying power of a tank.
As far as how you defend without having heavy armor, well, it works for Spider-man. Not getting hit is just as valid a defence as taking glances off the armor.
For book 4..
Race
Lupin - was in the dragon for 3.5, Basically half-wolf, half-human.
Trouble maker ;)
Classes
Swashbuckler - I know that you could "fluffersize" but really.. you cant. If i went fighter, I'd have to pour points into STR to hit things. Thus making my Dex likely to suffer. If my Dex suffers, then i'll have to wear heavy armor. If i have to wear heavy armor, then the whole agility thing dies off. Then there is fluffersizeing the rogue. Which of course still doesn't exactly work.
Fluffing only goes so far. Because eitherway I'm screwed, even with a hybrid class. It would be like me playing a wizard and wacking stuff with my stick to be an eldritch knight and attempting to defend with my wizardy hp. Just doesn't work right.
There is a lot of room to work with in making a swash. Lots of mobility, a potential for crowd control based on the confusion he causes in his wake, at-will movement utilities.
I think if done properly, the Swash could make a decent second martial defender, with potential to be a good controlly or Leader second. You could really go out on the crazy limb and make them Charisma first, which seems odd for a martial, unless you consider the bulk of their ability to based in flash and fients.
They should not have Striker built into them, cause thematically, the swashbuckler is all about the long drawn-out dueling scene, much more befitting the staying power of a tank.
As far as how you defend without having heavy armor, well, it works for Spider-man. Not getting hit is just as valid a defence as taking glances off the armor.
Pretty much exactly what I'm thinking. Though I would still personally keep thier main stat Dex, just for the simple thing of they will need AC unless they had some sort of special ability. Int and Cha would probally be thier secondaries.
Though with Cha as thier attack stat, you could then either be a Deft Duelist (Dex) or a tatical duelist (int) and they get a special ability that gives the a small + to ac when they move so many squares. Kinda like the warlock defense.
forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=11747308&po...
Races (not listing every ability)
Githzerai - 2 Wis; 2 Dex OR 2 Int, Shift 3 with Second Wind, Iron Mind (Immed. Interrupt +2 Def for 1 turn, Enc.)
Minotaur - 2 Str; 2 Con OR 2 Wis, charge bonuses and a free basic attack when dropped to 0.
Shardmind - 2 Int; 2 Wis OR 2 Cha, extra +2 to any Skill in addition to Arcana and Endurance. Extra language other than Common and Deep Speech. Telepathy to 25 feet. Resist 5 psychic (increases w/ level). Living Construct. Immortal. Teleport encounter power. Thematically, it's a crystalline construct (I intend to use it as the Psi-Forged). Mechanically it seems pretty strong.
Wilden - 2 Wis; 2 Con OR 2 Dex, Fey, three different Enc powers choose one after an extended rest. The powers either allow for more mobility or setup certain enemies for extra damage. Thematically, this is an entity that is meant to be a part of nature.
Oh dear ... Crimson gonna go insane when he sees this ...
forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=11747308&po...Races (not listing every ability)
Githzerai - 2 Wis; 2 Dex OR 2 Int, Shift 3 with Second Wind, Iron Mind (Immed. Interrupt +2 Def for 1 turn, Enc.)
Minotaur - 2 Str; 2 Con OR 2 Wis, charge bonuses and a free basic attack when dropped to 0.
Shardmind - 2 Int; 2 Wis OR 2 Cha, extra +2 to any Skill in addition to Arcana and Endurance. Extra language other than Common and Deep Speech. Telepathy to 25 feet. Resist 5 psychic (increases w/ level). Living Construct. Immortal. Teleport encounter power. Thematically, it's a crystalline construct (I intend to use it as the Psi-Forged). Mechanically it seems pretty strong.
Wilden - 2 Wis; 2 Con OR 2 Dex, Fey, three different Enc powers choose one after an extended rest. The powers either allow for more mobility or setup certain enemies for extra damage. Thematically, this is an entity that is meant to be a part of nature.
So now we are starting to see Classes that can swap out whichever stat they prefer, and races getting similar treatment.
I realize I'm being a bit reactionary, but it feels like they might as well say, "Pick any stat you want, and base all the powers you want on that."
Oh dear ... Crimson gonna go insane when he sees this ...
forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=11747308&po...Races (not listing every ability)
Githzerai - 2 Wis; 2 Dex OR 2 Int, Shift 3 with Second Wind, Iron Mind (Immed. Interrupt +2 Def for 1 turn, Enc.)
Minotaur - 2 Str; 2 Con OR 2 Wis, charge bonuses and a free basic attack when dropped to 0.
Shardmind - 2 Int; 2 Wis OR 2 Cha, extra +2 to any Skill in addition to Arcana and Endurance. Extra language other than Common and Deep Speech. Telepathy to 25 feet. Resist 5 psychic (increases w/ level). Living Construct. Immortal. Teleport encounter power. Thematically, it's a crystalline construct (I intend to use it as the Psi-Forged). Mechanically it seems pretty strong.
Wilden - 2 Wis; 2 Con OR 2 Dex, Fey, three different Enc powers choose one after an extended rest. The powers either allow for more mobility or setup certain enemies for extra damage. Thematically, this is an entity that is meant to be a part of nature.
So now we are starting to see Classes that can swap out whichever stat they prefer, and races getting similar treatment.
I realize I'm being a bit reactionary, but it feels like they might as well say, "Pick any stat you want, and base all the powers you want on that."
this information is obviously incorrect. it may be that its one players house ruling but aside from the changeling who's shtick is versitility i dont think any other races will get to choose their ability bonuses and certainly not all the PHB3 races. plus this is off topic arent we supposed to be making suggestions for PHB4?
Thier racial ability is pretty weak, considering that many races right now get that +2 damage.. and the +2 damage on said races (Gnoll) scales. And regeneration is well to do, but pretty weak, when in lower levels they quickly take you down from full to dead. and in later levels they greatly outdamage it.
this information is obviously incorrect. it may be that its one players house ruling but aside from the changeling who's shtick is versitility i dont think any other races will get to choose their ability bonuses and certainly not all the PHB3 races. plus this is off topic arent we supposed to be making suggestions for PHB4?
RPG.net's forums have frequently been the source for early leaks on D&D books, so I wouldn't call it obviously incorrect(slightly suspect maybe). Anyways, design trends in the PHB3 are relevant to PHB4 speculation as they indicate which direction WotC's design is heading.
Incidently, I just remembered that PHB3's "theme" was suppose to be player choices, so giving each race an additional choice to make certainly fits the theme.
So yes if the people ask for it, its entirely possible there might be a dex based martial defender in the future even though WotC has expressed they dont desire to expand the martial power source with additional classes. If the people who buy their products ask for it and think its a good idea it will eventually come. in the meantime there are many avenues in character creation that allow us to make a swashbuckling duelist.
Yes monstrous races will eventually get the attention they deserve because there are so many who desire them, however i don't see them appearing in PHBs any time soon. they'll either stick to giving them attention on insider and then eventually get printed in dragon annual. the gnoll might get a second write up article because i think that perhaps the scaling damage bonus is too powerful and needs to be nerfed? maybe there'll be a book entitled monstrous races which will satiate the hungry cries of fans of fur, scales and green skin. but taking the iconic "monsters" away from the game master and giving them to the player just sounds like something that should be treated carefully and given much consideration. so...
swashbuckler/duelist: eventually yes
gnoll, kobold, orc, goblin, bugbear, kenku, and all other things that typically lean towards evil: yes but not in a PHB.
this information is obviously incorrect. it may be that its one players house ruling but aside from the changeling who's shtick is versitility i dont think any other races will get to choose their ability bonuses and certainly not all the PHB3 races. plus this is off topic arent we supposed to be making suggestions for PHB4?
RPG.net's forums have frequently been the source for early leaks on D&D books, so I wouldn't call it obviously incorrect(slightly suspect maybe). Anyways, design trends in the PHB3 are relevant to PHB4 speculation as they indicate which direction WotC's design is heading.
Incidently, I just remembered that PHB3's "theme" was suppose to be player choices, so giving each race an additional choice to make certainly fits the theme.
then why would anyone play an unversitile race if they start popping up all over, i just think that if its gona happen make it rare ability, make is special. versitility allows for a wider range of favored classes and if a whole books worth of races get this treatment maybe the old races should too... i just dont see ti happening. why wouldnt it have been included in the githzerai article or the wilden article? werent those articles supposed to represent their final forms? and yes im aware of the books theme but the races can represent that without messing up their abillity bonuses. the wilden have three encounter powers. the githzerai offer many feats that modify there racial talents. not sure how the minotaur is versitile and i know nothing about the shardmind...
Unearthed Aracana gave us Caveliers, which in turn boosted up the Paladins if I recall..
Rifts constantly sold books by putting out, "the next big MEGADAMAGE thing".
Whitewolf upped the ante with each supliment they put out.
The newest 40k codex was always the cheatiest.
So far, I think 4e has been doing a good job of balancing the game with additional options, but its not unheard of for the new book to blast the old book into obselecense.
Also, if they go the route of "every gets a second atrribute choice" they may go back and fill in the blanks.
Does anyone know of any of this classes resembles the Soulknife at all?
The DDi exclusive Assassin + Shadowblade PP.
I meant something that is gonna be published.
Let's talk Archivist.
Do you think it should be an Int based Cleric build?
A new class? What role?
Should it have an Indiana Jones type melee build?
Should it be Divine? maybe Shadow?
For those that missed it, heres my vote:
ShowArchivist"Ash from the temple ruins of Zaluul is known to ward off evil and conceals the righteous, let's see if it works"
Role: Controller. Your collection of ancient knowledge and relics are used to get the upper hand on your enemies, depending on how you use your gifts you may lean towards leader or striker as a secondary role
Power Source: Divine. With the blessings of the gods, you have spent much time unearthing the lost scriptures, forgotten lore and sacred treasures of the ages, you use this divine knowledge and various holy baubles in the name of the gods of both old and newKey Abilities: Int vs. Dex with Wis (V shaped class)
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Implement: TomesBuilds: Lore Seeker (Int, sub-leader) and Treasure Hunter (Dex, sub-striker)
I see this class taking on two archetypes; the Divine rogue who uses reliquary and divine luck to undermine his opponents in a very Indiana Jonnes type way, and the robe wearing Divine scholar who can use their esoteric knowledge of their enemies to overpower them.
Oh dear ... Crimson gonna go insane when he sees this ...
forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=11747308&po...Races (not listing every ability)
Githzerai - 2 Wis; 2 Dex OR 2 Int, Shift 3 with Second Wind, Iron Mind (Immed. Interrupt +2 Def for 1 turn, Enc.)
Minotaur - 2 Str; 2 Con OR 2 Wis, charge bonuses and a free basic attack when dropped to 0.
Shardmind - 2 Int; 2 Wis OR 2 Cha, extra +2 to any Skill in addition to Arcana and Endurance. Extra language other than Common and Deep Speech. Telepathy to 25 feet. Resist 5 psychic (increases w/ level). Living Construct. Immortal. Teleport encounter power. Thematically, it's a crystalline construct (I intend to use it as the Psi-Forged). Mechanically it seems pretty strong.
Wilden - 2 Wis; 2 Con OR 2 Dex, Fey, three different Enc powers choose one after an extended rest. The powers either allow for more mobility or setup certain enemies for extra damage. Thematically, this is an entity that is meant to be a part of nature.
I just loaded the Character Builder and the unless they changed the Wilden they only get +2 Wis/Con, so little unsure about the stat bonuses, on these, everything else might be spot on though.
As far as the Archivist goes, I think a Wisdom based Wizard (Arcane User) would work well with it. Tending the tomes and learning their secrets instead of just researching them.
Take for instance the Samurai. They COULD make an entirely new class for this. Or...they could make options for fighters making them quicker to draw their weapons, more intimidating, and a paragon focusing on using the bastard sword. Or something. Or you could take quickdraw, skill focus intimidate, and go Kensei/Swordmaster. There are many ways to make that concept, or many other concepts involving the Samurai myth, without having to resort to a waste of time and money for both WOTC. Samurai were known to be horse riding, bow weilding warriors (ranger, horse companion?). Some legends have many samurai being glorified figureheads, leaders in battle (Warlords?). As we have many definitions for what a particular concept can be portrayed as, the best thing D&D can do for us is create a few basic molds and let us fill in the details.
this information is obviously incorrect. it may be that its one players house ruling but aside from the changeling who's shtick is versitility i dont think any other races will get to choose their ability bonuses and certainly not all the PHB3 races. plus this is off topic arent we supposed to be making suggestions for PHB4?
Since we already know for a fact (and by a fact I mean Keith Baker himself said it) that Muls in the Dark Sun book will be +2 Con, +2 Wis OR Str, I'm going to have to say you're wrong.
then why would anyone play an unversitile race if they start popping up all over, i just think that if its gona happen make it rare ability, make is special. versitility allows for a wider range of favored classes and if a whole books worth of races get this treatment maybe the old races should too...
There have been rumors since the Expo that the Essentials line is doing just that.
i just dont see ti happening. why wouldnt it have been included in the githzerai article or the wilden article? werent those articles supposed to represent their final forms?
For the same reasons they only revealed a single build for each of the debut classes? WotC isn't going to just show every little thing pre-release you know ...
I have to agree about how utterly bizarre it is that we did not hear about these versatile scores in any of the race preview documents. There was no particular reason not to mention it--it's not even particularly compelling or interesting as a surprise lemon twist.
See above. There is a very good reason it wasn't mentioned before - the same reason each debut class only showed one build.
I meant something that is gonna be published.
Contrary to, well your opinion, being in Dragon is being published.
Published as in on paper, in a book, a part of the overall line.
Yeah ... welcome to the 21st century. Physical publishing is eventually going to die out.
Also, it is part of the overall line. Sticknig your fingers in your ears and screaming isn't going to change the facts.
What? A second optional ability score bonus, withheld because we were only being shown "one build?" We're not talking about thirty levels worth of powers, feats, and paragon paths, we're talking about what would effectively be a minor typo. You're not keeping any special secrets by not mentioning it, and no carrots were dangled to make us wonder, the way we know each class has two builds. And the only people that are really wowed by this are optimizers who get nervous when they can't put racial bonuses into both their favorite stats and purists who think that the versatility is going to cause WotC to rot from the inside out.
Unless this was a last minute, "Oh wait, let's" decision, I wouldn't be surprised if all this talk of versatility is actually discussed and introduced in a separate sidebar from the main race stats, and the poster is mentioning them just to let us know without making any unnecesary (to the state of the game) distinction. Because a decision to increase racial versatility in general is shock-worthy. Neglecting to mention that the races in your book have racial traits not listed in what was promised to be a "from the PHB3 itself" isn't. It would be like neglecting to mention devas were immortal, or that goliaths had a +2 racial bonus to endurance. Not a big secret, just an odd discontinuity of information.
I personally wouldn't be upset with abandoning adding more core classes to martial, primal, divine, and arcane altogether. Most of what people seem to be looking for could easily be made into a different path for the class. Archivist could, for instance, be a new type of wizard, cleric, or even invoker (as evidenced by that archivist like paragon path in DP). I found one of the biggest problems with 3.5 edition was the drive to have a class for every concept imaginable, rather than leaving it to pre-existing options to create that concept and create feats/optional class abilities to fit as needed.
Take for instance the Samurai. They COULD make an entirely new class for this. Or...they could make options for fighters making them quicker to draw their weapons, more intimidating, and a paragon focusing on using the bastard sword. Or something. Or you could take quickdraw, skill focus intimidate, and go Kensei/Swordmaster. There are many ways to make that concept, or many other concepts involving the Samurai myth, without having to resort to a waste of time and money for both WOTC. Samurai were known to be horse riding, bow weilding warriors (ranger, horse companion?). Some legends have many samurai being glorified figureheads, leaders in battle (Warlords?). As we have many definitions for what a particular concept can be portrayed as, the best thing D&D can do for us is create a few basic molds and let us fill in the details.
I agree. I think there is a balance to be found, a few concepts are worthy of a new class but thats about it.
My point may be flimsy, but hey, so is WotC's excuses for some things (no Githyanki). The point being that there is absolutely no reason to believe the guy is lying.
Oh dear ... Crimson gonna go insane when he sees this ...
forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=11747308&po...Races (not listing every ability)
Githzerai - 2 Wis; 2 Dex OR 2 Int, Shift 3 with Second Wind, Iron Mind (Immed. Interrupt +2 Def for 1 turn, Enc.)
Minotaur - 2 Str; 2 Con OR 2 Wis, charge bonuses and a free basic attack when dropped to 0.
Shardmind - 2 Int; 2 Wis OR 2 Cha, extra +2 to any Skill in addition to Arcana and Endurance. Extra language other than Common and Deep Speech. Telepathy to 25 feet. Resist 5 psychic (increases w/ level). Living Construct. Immortal. Teleport encounter power. Thematically, it's a crystalline construct (I intend to use it as the Psi-Forged). Mechanically it seems pretty strong.
Wilden - 2 Wis; 2 Con OR 2 Dex, Fey, three different Enc powers choose one after an extended rest. The powers either allow for more mobility or setup certain enemies for extra damage. Thematically, this is an entity that is meant to be a part of nature.
Honestly, I'm more upset to see that they apparently haven't fixed the Minotaur. I hoped that they had learned their lesson, but I guess I'll have to update that Minotaur fix thread that I have floating around somewhere...
As for the ability score thing, I call BS. It's just too big a change in racial design to be credible. The only way that I would believe this would be if somebody also told me that the book included alternate ability score options for the existing races as well. Otherwise, already existing races would be ridiculously far behind in terms of versatility in crunch until they published yet another book correcting the disparity.
People forget that my objection to races getting versatile ability score only comes from the fact that it would clash with the existing racial design standard. If they change the standard as well, then I have no problem with it. If they do this and don't change the standard, then they're ****ing idiots.
EDIT:
As a side note, people on that site seem really far behind as far as knowing what's in the PHB3. They're asking things like what races and classes are going to be in the book, and that news is older than dirt.
As for the scores, well you called BS on it existing for the Mul, and we remember how that turned out, right?
Frankly, I see no reason to believe the guy is lying or misunderstanding the book. He's giving out way to much detail for it to all be a lie.
Plus remember, there are still the rumors that score versatility is coming in the Essentials books for older races. And if not there, there's always Dragon and the Racebooks.
I wouldn't be so quick on the Minotaur - he says free basic, not free melee basic, so at least there may be that. Though the charge encounter not changing is limiting.
We've known that free melee basic would be updated to free basic since the Revenant article came out, so that's not new. The other stuff that needed correcting was the Heedless Charge racial feature and the Goring Charge racial power. The "charge bonuses" mentioned makes me worry that those didn't get fixed.
As for the scores, well you called BS on it existing for the Mul, and we remember how that turned out, right?
It hasn't. The Mul aren't out yet, and they won't be for a while. And again, you know very well that my objection was based on the current race design conventions. If the race design convention changes to normalize these versatile ability scores, then there's no problem. Whether the current race design conventions should be changed in the first place is a whole different thing.
Frankly, I see no reason to believe the guy is lying or misunderstanding the book. He's giving out way to much detail for it to all be a lie.
If he's not lying, then he better have forgotten that the book also updates previous races with ability score options of their own. Otherwise, WotC is ****ing stupid on a multitude of levels.
Plus remember, there are still the rumors that score versatility is coming in the Essentials books for older races. And if not there, there's always Dragon and the Racebooks.
That's an absolutely horrendous idea. It means that existing races are going to need to wait who knows how long to get up to par and/or that anybody without DDI will be left out in the cold with a completely inconsistent and nonsensical design issue. The only thing that makes sense if this whole mess is true would be for the PHB3 itself to include the updates to the previous races.
It hasn't. The Mul aren't out yet, and they won't be for a while. And again, you know very well that my objection was based on the current race design conventions. If the race design convention changes to normalize these versatile ability scores, then there's no problem. Whether the current race design conventions should be changed in the first place is a whole different thing.
I was specifically referring to you saying you didn't believe that the Muls were actually being designed that way, not your reaction afterwards. And yes, that is how the Muls will come out - that has been confirmed by Keith Baker. You might not like it, but it is going to happen.
If he's not lying, then he better have forgotten that the book also updates previous races with ability score options of their own. Otherwise, WotC is ****ing stupid on a multitude of levels.
He outright says later in the thread that no, the older races are not mentioned at all. He also confirms that yes, all of the PHB3 races do have versatile scores.
That's an absolutely horrendous idea. It means that existing races are going to need to wait who knows how long to get up to par and/or that anybody without DDI will be left out in the cold with a completely inconsistent and nonsensical design issue. The only thing that makes sense if this whole mess is true would be for the PHB3 itself to include the updates to the previous races.
Going to have to disagree with you there. WotC will get around to publishing it when they can, not when you want.
However, there is supposed to be some form of major errata update in March that had originally been intended for January and got pushed back due to issues with programming the CB, or something like that. It is possible that that errata includes giving the older races versatile scores. And errata is free.
I was specifically referring to you saying you didn't believe that the Muls were actually being designed that way, not your reaction afterwards. And yes, that is how the Muls will come out - that has been confirmed by Keith Baker. You might not like it, but it is going to happen.
In this case, my disbelief itself isn't as significant to the conversation as my reason behind it, and my reasoning was perfectly sound given what we knew at the time. If we're now learning that the base design convention, the entire reason for my objection in the first place, is going to change, then I no longer have reason to dislike what they did with the Mul, so I don't. If the base racial design convention is really going to change, then I don't have a single problem with the Mul's supposed ability scores.
You can't be blaming me for not knowing information that nobody knew at the time, however.
What hilarious about this, though, is that it means that I was still right that the Mul shouldn't be any more flexible or versatile than any of the other existing races. With this design convention change, they aren't. They're exactly like everybody else.
Going to have to disagree with you there. WotC will get around to publishing it when they can, not when you want.
Oh please, now you're just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing with me, and you know it. Are you really suggesting that almost every existing race being behind on the new design convention is a good idea? Do you really not see why that's detrimental? What part of that is benefitial to anybody at all? What about it is good?
You need to realize that I'm not at all arguing that this new design convention shouldn't happen. I don't care. What I think is silly is releasing the new races while not updating the older races at all. It would take next to zero effort to have had a page dedicated to updating the existing races.
It is possible that that errata includes giving the older races versatile scores. And errata is free.
I think that it's questionable whether Errata is really the appropriate medium for such a change, given the intent of errata, but I suppose that it could work depending on how they do it. For now, I'll assume that this is what they're doing, because it's a relatively sane option.
in the future some classes are bound to overlap and be thematically or mechanically similar, the same goes for races. If the designers stayed away from concepts that too closely resembled material already in print then they'd quickly run out of new ideas to put in future books then suddenly there would be no PHB5 or 6.
So yes if the people ask for it, its entirely possible there might be a dex based martial defender in the future even though WotC has expressed they dont desire to expand the martial power source with additional classes. If the people who buy their products ask for it and think its a good idea it will eventually come. in the meantime there are many avenues in character creation that allow us to make a swashbuckling duelist.
Yes monstrous races will eventually get the attention they deserve because there are so many who desire them, however i don't see them appearing in PHBs any time soon. they'll either stick to giving them attention on insider and then eventually get printed in dragon annual. the gnoll might get a second write up article because i think that perhaps the scaling damage bonus is too powerful and needs to be nerfed? maybe there'll be a book entitled monstrous races which will satiate the hungry cries of fans of fur, scales and green skin. but taking the iconic "monsters" away from the game master and giving them to the player just sounds like something that should be treated carefully and given much consideration. so...
swashbuckler/duelist: eventually yes
gnoll, kobold, orc, goblin, bugbear, kenku, and all other things that typically lean towards evil: yes but not in a PHB.
They only typically lean towards evil because people never want to think of them anything but evil, and the reason is because they typically lean towards evil. In otherwords its a self propergating circle.
For example your Kenku, don't typically lean towards evil. They are actually typically neutral. Even in DNDs "Oh its kinda ugly and not very human like so it must be evil" views of races.
The whole reason most of theses races are evil, is because they are not very human like. Just look at all the races we do get to play with. Pinkies.. almost every single one of them. Almost everyone of them is a human race. and that supposedly makes them "good" even though through out LFR I've been backstabbed by so many dwarves its insane, almost never have I ran into a dwarf that wasn't a PC that didn't try to stab us in the back.
We obviously need some crappy author to finally write epic tales about some crappy gnoll/kobold/kenku ect that
You can't be blaming me for not knowing information that nobody knew at the time, however.
I wasn't blaming you for anything ...
Oh please, now you're just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing with me, and you know it. Are you really suggesting that almost every existing race being behind on the new design convention is a good idea? Do you really not see why that's detrimental? What part of that is benefitial to anybody at all? What about it is good?
I'm not disagreeing just to disagree. And I'm not saying it's a good idea. What I am saying is that it is what it is, and that WotC will get to it when they can. Is it ideal? Of course not. But calling it a horrendous idea is going overboard.
The PHB3 has a very specific page count, and possibly word count. Putting in updates to the old races would likely require at least a page, and more likely two or three pages - pages that would have taken away from over things in the book, like the long delayed Superior Implement rules.
If it comes down to choosing between giving page space to new rules and updating old rules, I'll take the new every time.
I'm not disagreeing just to disagree. And I'm not saying it's a good idea. What I am saying is that it is what it is, and that WotC will get to it when they can. Is it ideal? Of course not. But calling it a horrendous idea is going overboard.
So you agree with me that it's a horrendous idea, just not with me saying that it was a horrendous idea? O_o
Really, nothing about what you just said here makes any sense to me. "It is what it is" doesn't alleviate the point. "What it is" is the problem.
The PHB3 has a very specific page count, and possibly word count.
If that's true, then it's stupid. Make the book fit what it needs to fit. Page counts and words counts are arbitrary and pointless.
Putting in updates to the old races would likely require at least a page, and more likely two or three pages...
One would have sufficed. Hell, not even an entire one would have been necessary.
...pages that would have taken away from over things in the book, like the long delayed Superior Implement rules.
OR they could have just added a page or two. Easy.
Or they could have cut out any number of useless stuff, like maybe some art or some useless fluff.
Oh please, now you're just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing with me, and you know it. Are you really suggesting that almost every existing race being behind on the new design convention is a good idea? Do you really not see why that's detrimental? What part of that is benefitial to anybody at all? What about it is good?
I'm not disagreeing just to disagree. And I'm not saying it's a good idea. What I am saying is that it is what it is, and that WotC will get to it when they can. Is it ideal? Of course not. But calling it a horrendous idea is going overboard.
The PHB3 has a very specific page count, and possibly word count. Putting in updates to the old races would likely require at least a page, and more likely two or three pages - pages that would have taken away from over things in the book, like the long delayed Superior Implement rules.
The major problem is that, if they were going to use the Essentials line to change things, they could have easily fit the four PHB3 races in there.
Right now, we are talking about every race from the PHB1, the PHB2, two campaign guides, and both monster manuals being behind the curve they just introduced. That's one hell of a lot of races.
If they are going to introduce a new product that updates every single race to the new form, they would have space for 4 more among the thirty-odd races that would need updating. And if they are NOT going to update every single race, they've just jacked up the power and versatility across the board without any concern for what came before, or will be leaving a portion of their "balanced racial stats" lingering in the dust.
If that's true, then it's stupid. Make the book fit what it needs to fit.
OR they could have just added a page or two. Easy.
That is not how publishing works. They very literally have to abide by certain restrictions. If they do not, they get charged more to publish, which then makes the book worth less to them. They are a business first and foremost, and their foremost concern is profit. If they do not abide by publishing restrictions, they don't make the kind of profit they need to.
As much as a one page difference could end up in a net loss of thousands of dollars, because it costs one amount to publish 224 pages, and another amount to publish, say 260 pages. And there is absolutely no in between, period. It's one or the other. And they will get charged the full amount for the 260 book, even if they only print 225 pages. And if their budget only allows for the 224 page price point, then that's what they go with.
Simple as that.
Thus far, I believe classes are not going to be in the Annuals at all, none were in the first.
Blah, blah, blah
If that's true, then they could have removed a piece of artwork or a few paragraphs useless fluff. Again, it wouldn't even have taken an entire page to update the existing races. That's what the editor's job is, to make happen whatever needs to happen, and it wouldn't even have been very hard in this particular case.
I'm not disagreeing just to disagree. And I'm not saying it's a good idea. What I am saying is that it is what it is, and that WotC will get to it when they can. Is it ideal? Of course not. But calling it a horrendous idea is going overboard.
So you agree with me that it's a horrendous idea, just not with me saying that it was a horrendous idea? O_o
I think you misunderstand slightly, Crimson. The scale is off. He may agree that it's a bad idea, but he feels horrendous is too strong a term.
The major problem is that, if they were going to use the Essentials line to change things, they could have easily fit the four PHB3 races in there.
But why? If they came up with the idea when designing the PHB3, then why delay it for the PHB3 races? There's absolutely no reason to. If nothing else, it serves as a teaser for what is coming next.
Right now, we are talking about every race from the PHB1, the PHB2, two campaign guides, and both monster manuals being behind the curve they just introduced. That's one hell of a lot of races.
Which is why it couldn't be done in the PHB3 for them.
If they are going to introduce a new product that updates every single race to the new form, they would have space for 4 more among the thirty-odd races that would need updating. And if they are NOT going to update every single race, they've just jacked up the power and versatility across the board without any concern for what came before, or will be leaving a portion of their "balanced racial stats" lingering in the dust.
Which is why there's the rumor of updates coming in either the Essential line or the March updates.
The Dragon Annuals will not have a lot of races (the last one had one and a template) in them, and I think the Kobold has the best chance for this time around (if it get's a write up in time). What you won't see is the exclusives that are on the electronic side (Assassin and Revenant)
Thus far, I believe classes are not going to be in the Annuals at all, none were in the first.
Um ... and that has what to do with anything?
Though the reason for there being no classes in the Annual is because:
A) The Annual came out before the Assassin
B) The Assassin is the only class to come out in Dragon
C) The Assassin is DDi exclusive, which means it will not be reprinted in a physical book
And the reasons for there only being one race and a bloodline (NOT a Template) are:
A) The Minotaur were already scheduled for the PHB3, and Warforged for EPG
B) The Vistani and Aasimar bloodlines hadn't come out in Dragon yet
C) The Revenant is DDi exclusive (plus it hadn't come out yet)
Which leaves the Shadar-Kai (in the Annual), Dhampyr (in the Annual), and Gnoll (bastard son).
I think you misunderstand slightly, Crimson. The scale is off. He may agree that it's a bad idea, but he feels horrendous is too strong a term.
Then that's what he should have said. When somebody says "I disagree" I assume that they disagree, not that they agree but would have used different words.
If that's true, then they could have removed a piece of artwork or a few paragraphs useless fluff. Again, it wouldn't even have taken an entire page to update the existing races. That's what the editor's job is, to make happen whatever needs to happen, and it wouldn't even have been very hard in this particular case.
Again, wrong.
They've already paid for the art - taking that out is not an option
Covering every single PHB, PG, Dragon, and possibly MM race will take more than one page.
The editor did make whatever needed to happen, happen. But editors are not miracle workers. And it's a lot harder fitting that stuff in than you seem to think. Judging by your cavalier attitude, I think you really need to read up on what goes on in the publishing world. Because you are clearly expecting things that just can not happen.
I think you misunderstand slightly, Crimson. The scale is off. He may agree that it's a bad idea, but he feels horrendous is too strong a term.
Then that's what he should have said. When somebody says "I disagree" I assume that they disagree, not that they agree but would have used different words.
Except that that is exactly what I said ....
But why? If they came up with the idea when designing the PHB3, then why delay it for the PHB3 races?
Because not delaying it for the PHB3 races would mean that the players have to deal with a massive design gap, and that's bad. As Dragoncat says, it causes a very real temporary imbalance. It would have been much better to delay it and have it all come out at once if they were really having difficulty fitting it in the PHB3.
Which is why it couldn't be done in the PHB3 for them.
But it could have. There are only about 20 races currently in print. That's not really so many that they couldn't have dealt with it in under a page.
They've already paid for the art - taking that out is not an option
Sure it is. If they really want to be able to use every piece of art that they've purchased (and they already don't), an alternate solution would be to change artwork size. Much more likely, however, they'd do what they probably do every other time and just use art they were planning to use for one thing for something else instead.
Covering every single PHB, PG, Dragon, and possibly MM race will take more than one page.
There's no reason to cover Dragon or MM races. Dragon races are supported through Dragon and have never gotten any printed support, and MM races aren't built for player use and likewise never get any support. There are only about 20 races to really worry about.
And it's a lot harder fitting that stuff in than you seem to think. Judging by your cavalier attitude, I think you really need to read up on what goes on in the publishing world. Because you are clearly expecting things that just can not happen.
That's where you're wrong. I've taken entire classes about editing. It's really not that hard to make less than a page fit in with an over 200-page book if you just shift stuff around a little bit. I have practical experience with it, and it is not hard.
Except that that is exactly what I said ....
No, it isn't. You just said "I disagree. They'll do it when they're good and ready." Here's the exact quote:
That's an absolutely horrendous idea.
Going to have to disagree with you there. WotC will get around to publishing it when they can, not when you want.
The major problem is that, if they were going to use the Essentials line to change things, they could have easily fit the four PHB3 races in there.
But why? If they came up with the idea when designing the PHB3, then why delay it for the PHB3 races? There's absolutely no reason to. If nothing else, it serves as a teaser for what is coming next.
Because at the moment, these things are unbalanced, and they specifically degrade the flavor of the Changeling, the one race who's mechanical schtick is his attribute versatility.
In the immediate moment, that is bad.
If it is going to be fixed in the future, there is no particular reason why four races out of thirty couldn't wait until that future moment. The essentials line could easily fit four little lines that say "The minotaur now gets this, the githzerai now gets this, the shardmind now gets this, and the wilden now gets this" alongside every other race.
To flip your question around, why should they do otherwise? Why change the racial design process, but only for a handful of them? Why require people to go but the Essentials line just so all the other races can be on par with the new format they might use from now on? What purpose does doing only half the job serve in the immediate and in the long term?
But it could have. There are only about 20 races currently in print. That's not really so many that they couldn't have dealt with it in under a page.
Actually, it probably is. More than likely there will be some form of text blurb explaining the decision when/if it does get published. They're could easily be other text added for fluff or something else. And it's very unlikely that it'll be just a simple Eladrin: +2 Int, +2 Dex or Cha, straight down the line. It'll almost certainly be bigger than that.
And even if it's not, that's still one page that was needed for something else. WotC prioritized the new PHB3 material, which is what they should have done. That one page would by necessity take away a page from something else, which is just as bad, if not worse.
I don't get dragon, so I don't know about what classes has been in the book, but I thought that there was other things written other than the exclusive Assassin. Some Race specific classes and a lot of PP/ED write ups.
Mostly, though, the Assassin and Revenant is C. It is online content, and Wizards had said this ever since they announced their creation.
Now, I think it is because these two things are slanted toward the darker side of things, a paid murderer and a basic Vampire like race. You think differently?
But it could have. There are only about 20 races currently in print. That's not really so many that they couldn't have dealt with it in under a page.
Actually, it probably is. More than likely there will be some form of text blurb explaining the decision when/if it does get published.
Meant in humor: So they'll have space to tell us that something would be published, but not enough space to print what should be there?
Because at the moment, these things are unbalanced, and they specifically degrade the flavor of the Changeling, the one race who's mechanical schtick is his attribute versatility.
No, they are no unbalanced. You may have a point with the Changeling, but I don't agree with that either.
In the immediate moment, that is bad.
Inconvenient, not bad.
If it is going to be fixed in the future, there is no particular reason why four races out of thirty couldn't wait until that future moment. The essentials line could easily fit four little lines that say "The minotaur now gets this, the githzerai now gets this, the shardmind now gets this, and the wilden now gets this" alongside every other race.
There is absolutely no reason why they should have waited for it when they came up with it with the races being done now.
To flip your question around, why should they do otherwise? Why change the racial design process, but only for a handful of them? Why require people to go but the Essentials line just so all the other races can be on par with the new format they might use from now on? What purpose does doing only half the job serve in the immediate and in the long term?
Well, for one no one is required to buy the Essentials. It will show up in the CB, and frankly it will have to show up in the errata too. And it's not changing the design process for just a handful. It's changing the design process for everyone, and putting them out when available.
More than likely there will be some form of text blurb explaining the decision when/if it does get published.
There doesn't need to be. Notice that there aren't even any text blurbs explaining the reasoning behind the current racial ablity score bonuses to begin with.
And it's very unlikely that it'll be just a simple Eladrin: +2 Int, +2 Dex or Cha, straight down the line. It'll almost certainly be bigger than that.
There's no reason to make it that complex when it doesn't need to be that complex, especially not if their editor is having trouble fitting it in the book.
And even if it's not, that's still one page that was needed for something else... That one page would by necessity take away a page from something else, which is just as bad, if not worse.
In the world of editing, adding stuff in doesn't necessarily mean needing to take anything out. It's really not as hard as you think that it is to shift stuff around or adjust sizes and make it work. If an editor can't handle this simple task, then they're not a very good editor.
No, they are no unbalanced.
Yes, they are. That sort of flexibility and versatility means something both mechanically and thematically.
Inconvenient, not bad.
In this case, inconveniant is bad, for a lot of reasons.
There is absolutely no reason why they should have waited for it when they came up with it with the races being done now.
Balance and design gap issues are plenty enough reason.
In the world of editing, adding stuff in doesn't necessarily mean needing to take anything out. It's really not as hard as you think that it is to shift stuff around or adjust sizes and make it work.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that.
Meant in humor: So they'll have space to tell us that something would be published, but not enough space to print what should be there?
Well no, they'll have the space for both or neither.
The Shader-Kia was left out of another book, so it was included in the Annual instead.
I don't know why I bother ...
No the Shadar-Kai was not left out of another book. It was scheduled for Dragon, and the Annual. That's it. There was no leaving out involed.
I don't get dragon, so I don't know about what classes has been in the book, but I thought that there was other things written other than the exclusive Assassin. Some Race specific classes and a lot of PP/ED write ups.
.... Race specific classes? What is this I don't even
*sigh* There is no such thing as race specific classes. Now PPs/EDs, yes. Those exist, and they are in Dragon. The bulk of them either occuring with a race article which then gets shifted to another book (Minotaur, Shadar-kai, Dhampyr), occuring AFTER the Annual was published, or was in an artice that did make it into the Annual.
Mostly, though, the Assassin and Revenant is C. It is online content, and Wizards had said this ever since they announced their creation.
Uh ... yeah? What's your point? That you agree with me?
Now, I think it is because these two things are slanted toward the darker side of things, a paid murderer and a basic Vampire like race. You think differently?
Well of course I do, since Assassins are no more universally paid murderers than James Bond is, and teh Revenant has absolutely nothing to do with vampires, and everything to do with the Crow. Anti-heroes maybe. But that has absoluetly no bearing on them being in Dragon, since the PHB4 is pretty much guaranteed to have the Shadow Source.
No, they are not unbalanced.
Yes, they are. That sort of flexibility and versatility means something both mechanically and thematically
We're obviously going to have to agree to disagree on this too, because I see absolutely nothing unbalanced about it.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that.
In this case, would you at least agree that if their editor could have done it that they should have?
We're obviously going to have to agree to disagree on this too, because I see absolutely nothing unbalanced about it.
That's because you're looking at it from a pure power perspective. From a pure power perspective, there's no problem. However, it's the versatility aspect of balance that becomes a problem. Don't you remember the reason why the Human only gets +2 to any one instead of +2 to any two? (With NAD adjustment to balance it out from a pure power perspective, of course.) It's because the latter would have given Humans too much versatility. They're supposed to be able to be good at everything, but having them be the best at everything is problematic. Versatility needs to be checked out too when you're looking at whether something is balanced.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that.
In this case, would you at least agree that if their editor could have done it that they should have?
Oh absolutely. If they could have they should have. I just don't believe that there's any way that they could have, without sacrficing something that couldn't be sacrificed.
We're obviously going to have to agree to disagree on this too, because I see absolutely nothing unbalanced about it.
That's because you're looking at it from a pure power perspective. From a pure power perspective, there's no problem. However, it's the versatility aspect of balance that becomes a problem. Don't you remember the reason why the Human only gets +2 to any one instead of +2 to any two? (With NAD adjustment to balance it out from a pure power perspective, of course.) It's because the latter would have given Humans too much versatility. They're supposed to be able to be good at everything, but having them be the best at everything is problematic. Versatility needs to be checked out too when you're looking at whether something is balanced.
Well, no. You're right about the humans. But being versatile between two fixed scores is just not versatile enough to be unbalancing.
being versatile between two fixed scores is just not versatile enough to be unbalancing.
I'm not suggesting that it's very unbalanced, but I don't think that anybody will disagree that a version of the Tiefling that gets +2 CON / +2 INT // +2 CHA is objectively more powerful than a version of the Tiefling that gets +2 INT / +2 CHA due to the superior versatility of the former.
Oh absolutely. If they could have they should have.
Then we agree, and we should end on that positive note.
What if they just fixed all the current races in one article, like in the next month or so, that wouldn't that bad.
Depends. It could be good enough depending on the timing, but if it's like a Dragon article that people have to pay to see, then that would present its own issues. People who don't have DDI should be considered as well. In either case, the best solution still would have been to include them in the PHB3 to begin with.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that.
In this case, would you at least agree that if their editor could have done it that they should have?
Oh absolutely. If they could have they should have.
So should they could, would they because they should or should they would just because they could?
...I smell...woodchucks...
Why take up PH3 space when you can just post it in errata for free?
The biggest reason that immediately comes to mind is that lots of people don't even know that errata exists. Believe it or not, most people who play D&D don't visit these forums or even frequent the D&D website. For these people, unless there's actually something in the book telling them to go to the website to look for updates, they're not going to know about it, so they're going to get stuck with mismatched racial design conventions permanently, and that's a problem, and even if the changes eventually get printed, those same people are going to experience that awkward gap and have no idea why. This weird gap doesn't reflect well on the system, and it's a lot more benefitial to everybody for the updated convention to be applied right when and where it's introduced to avoid any confusion.
So should they could, would they because they should or should they would just because they could?
I can't tell whether this is just an attempt at humor or an attempt at humor that also intends to ask a real question.
So should they could, would they because they should or should they would just because they could?
I can't tell whether this is just an attempt at humor or an attempt at humor that also intends to ask a real question.
And in that realization of the lack of realization, you have achieved the first step, grasshopper.
But if it's posted in Eratta first, then put into Essentials (book form), and into the Compendium and Character Builder, there shouldn't be a problem.
Not for people who frequent this site or these boards, no, but we're not the only people that need to be considered. Groups who aren't as obsessed with this hobby as us and don't have members with DDI subscriptions or members who've ever even been to the D&D website will be stuck in a WTF? limbo until the Essentials come out, and that's bad.
So should they could, would they because they should or should they would just because they could?
.... No.
Not for people who frequent this site or these boards, no, but we're not the only people that need to be considered. Groups who aren't as obsessed with this hobby as us and don't have members with DDI subscriptions or members who've ever even been to the D&D website will be stuck in a WTF? limbo until the Essentials come out, and that's bad.
You do realize you just shot down your own argument, right? All those people who aren't checking the boards and DDi and Errata? They won't know that there's an issue at all.
And if you say PHB3, I'll have to counter - the people who get PHB3 either are the ones who will check online anyways, because people willing to get a third PHB for DnD are going to be pretty commited to the game, or won't think that there is a problem just because the new races are different, because without going on the boards they won't have any reason to see it as some weird or bad thing.
All those people who aren't checking the boards and DDi and Errata? They won't know that there's an issue at all.
...or won't think that there is a problem just because the new races are different, because without going on the boards they won't have any reason to see it as some weird or bad thing.
I don't think that's necessarily true at all. People can figure out for themselves that there's an issue without other people telling them, especially when the design change is so obvious.
And if you say PHB3, I'll have to counter - the people who get PHB3 either are the ones who will check online anyways, because people willing to get a third PHB for DnD are going to be pretty commited to the game...
I can tell you from personal experience that this isn't true. My own current primary gaming group, before I joined them, used to buy almost every book in 3.5 but none of them ever visited the website or the forums. They didn't even know what book was coming out what month until it actually came out. I know and have played with at least two other groups with the same story. Just because people play D&D a lot doesn't mean that they're the sort of people who like to go to internet forums about it or that they're even very big internet people at all, and just because they're not big on forums or the internet doesn't mean that they can't be capable of understanding, analyzing, and critiquing the system proficiently.
I can tell you from personal experience that this isn't true. My own current primary gaming group, before I joined them, used to buy almost every book in 3.5 but none of them ever visited the website or the forums. They didn't even know what book was coming out what month until it actually came out.
Same here. Of the the 6 people in the group I currently play with, none of them ever checked the websight back in 3e with any frequency. Come 4e, one of them started to do so, and round about the release of PH2 a second began to as well. Even so, I'm still usually the first to know about which books come out each month and when new errata is released. Partly because I still check the sight more frequently, and partly because while 2 others keep up with the sight, I'm the only one who actively checks the forums. At least one of my friends has even tried to criticize me for being a forumite (he seems to feel it's a bad influence).
Anyway though, interesting as it may be, all this talk of whether or not stat versatility is a good thing and how such an update should be made, it has little to do with PH4. Shall we resume the speculation?
Just look at some races out there, Dwarves get the ability to use thier second wind as a minor, save vs falling prone and reduce movement by 1 space. Elves have 7 speed, can shift over difficult terrien, and something else i can't remember.
Basically what i'm saying is while thier racial power is powerful compaired to some other racial powers, the fact you have to become bloodied or use magic items in order to use it is the balancing factor. Not having even the basic "Shapeshifter racial (Like changeling) and immune to moonfrenzy" makes them pretty boring.
So should they could, would they because they should or should they would just because they could?
.... No.
Nonetheless, you know something that would really help? If Changelings got a double attribute choice.
So instead of being Cha + Int/Dex, they were Cha/something + Int/Dex, making them still one step ahead on the versatility scale as they were meant to be.
Even then, I've always felt that Changelings had an unfair advantage of being optimal at more classes than other races. This errata will balance them.
Why do we want to make Changelings even better?
next year the third player finds PHB2 in a book store "hey guys i just picked up this cool new book" he says, "its got a barbarian a bard and a druid!!!"
"awesome" his friends reply.
a year after that another player in the group picks up PHB3 and shows it to his friends.
"whats this one got" they ask.
"its got psionics, doesnt that sound interesting, but hey whats up with the races? they all have optional stat bonuses."
a friend says, "hey thats alot better than the old races"
another says, "but wait thats not fair what about my favorite race, elves? i want something to make them more versitile"
so these players are going to remain in the dark until the essensials line comes out. wich admitedly would be perfect for them but imagine their confusion till then. really wierd and inconvenient.
Elves are good at druids, so are Githzerai, just because the Githzerai could have Int instead of Wis isn't going to make you suddenly play the Githzerai.
Also, the essentials line IS for newbies, why shouldn't it clear stuff up?
"are they gona fix the old races or are these races special?"
"i dunno"
"well this is confusing im not gona stick arround to find out, ive got too much on my plate"
"awe c'mon guys its not that big a deal"
"no i'm with Jimmy, the game keep changing and i cant keep up with all the school work ive got and my job"
"if only there were something to spell it out for us and simplify all this confusing new information, but oh well something like that doesnt exist at this point, see you guys next month"
"dont count on it"
"hmm too bad maybe i'll pick up wow instead now that i have no friends"
And if they have MMO experience, they have a computer, and will have their answers cleared up in short order.
Its not like 20 years ago, (cry) when you were scroutinizing over a poorly edited, index lacking, White Wolf suppliment and thinking, "this can't be right...can it?"
I think the actual worst case senario would be the group starting with the phb2.
It would be reminiciant of the time I grabbed the TMNT Transdimentional Rpg sourcebook without ever seeing the first book.
Again, props to dnd (since third) in being very clear that, "you need THIS book if you want to play the game."
With the Chaos Shard adventure going on, maybe the fourth phb will lean Elemental instead.
If Wizards had an uberstory being suplimented through modules, I'd be more inclined to think Elemental would be last, (nice rise of the Titans story) But they really haven't been. Most of their story lines seem to be, "Start at level 1, get ticked-off at one of our fine demon princes/deities, and fight them at level 30"
Planescape used to have a baariur (sp?) race, which was something like an exotic centaur. I suggest it only because the idea of a character who can be the mount of another character opens a new way to play the game without the need to write a lot of new classes or encounter powers.
"Shadow" as a power source could work, although I would want more story-telling elements to explain it.
The Eberron setting has convinced me that Goblinoid races (Goblin, Hobgoblins, and Bugbears) are interesting enough to play. Throw in some of those shifty kobolds that have caused me so many troubles over the years and I would be happy.
Planescape used to have a baariur (sp?) race, which was something like an exotic centaur. I suggest it only because the idea of a character who can be the mount of another character opens a new way to play the game without the need to write a lot of new classes or encounter powers.
"Shadow" as a power source could work, although I would want more story-telling elements to explain it.
Look at the assassin for the shadow source, this is already in effect and pretty much a given for phb4.
All for gob and hobgobs atleast, even in eberron bugbears are still thugs at best.
I'd be all for a centaur like race, if balanced. If they introduce the lance I would love the idea of a lance weilding fighter charging on the back of the team barbarian. It's not likely though,
The Eberron setting has convinced me that Goblinoid races (Goblin, Hobgoblins, and Bugbears) are interesting enough to play.
All for gob and hobgobs atleast, even in eberron bugbears are still thugs at best.
I'll third this. In my 3.X experiences, Goblins and Hobgoblins were just as "important" as any of the core races. Not having them available in a truly playable fashion makes my Eberron hurt a little, today.
That said, I find the Half-Orc's stats to be a better fit for Eberron Hobbos than the stats in the MM (In the MM, I can buy the Cha, but the Con is just... yeah, not my Hobbos), so we've been using the PH2 Half-Orc stats for both Eberron Half-Orcs and Eberron Hobbos.
Though the Shadow Power Source is most likely in the PHB4, the Assassin will forever stay in the electronic pages of DDi, in my most humble opinion.
This was confirmed by WotC, who said that Assassin is exclusive to D&D Insider, and we'll never find it elsewhere. That means it won't even make it to the next Dragon Magazine Annual (which aren't really annual, but…)
Though the Shadow Power Source is most likely in the PHB4, the Assassin will forever stay in the electronic pages of DDi, in my most humble opinion.
.... What's your point? WotC has flat out said that time and again. That's what "DDi Exclusive" means ...
Wish I'd seen this thread before I posted mine. Okay, what I want: HALF-OGRES. Not renamed Goliaths, not over-tall Half-orcs, honest-to-Trogdor HALF-OGRES.
Out of curiosity, what about them do you think separates them apart from the Goliath or Half-Orc? What would distinguish them or make them special or desireable mechanically? Because I don't see it.
I would like to see less obviously humanoid race in PHB4. I always liked the concept of a race that walks on its hands and manipulates things with its feet, but that really doesn't make a race. I guess when I run down the line of stuff that makes sense to me to have a race made out of it (plant, construct, elemental, dragon, etc) I am having a really hard time figuring out where WotC can go next.
Half-ogres are a race from Dark Age of Camelot. Ugly, big, big browed and bumpy headed. The offspring of ogres and Avalonian humans (who were vaguely fey). I assume 3rd edition also had a variation of half-ogre. Just refluff a goliath to look like them. You say you do not want to, but what prevents you from gluing a picture of a 3rd edtion ogre to your character sheet?
UM, NO.
Half-Ogre characters date al the way back to 1st edition AD&D (from the pages of Dragon magazine, first in an article by Gary Gygax himself, then in a follow-up by TSR sraff writer Roger Moore.) They became official in 2nd ed (Complete Book of Humanoids, Dragonlance Boxed set tales of the Lance, and Players Option: Powers & Skills) and were also featured in both iterations of 3rd ed (Green Ronin's Bastard & Bloodlines for 3.0, Races of Destiny for 3.5.)
What prevents me "from gluing a picture of a 3rd edtion ogre to your character sheet?" Something called a Dungeon Master.
That, and the desire to play a character of a specific race, one that's been long-standing in our games.
Before you tell me to just re-fluff something that isn't one, let me say to you
"Do you want to play a Elf? Well, too bad. Play a halfling instead, and just call it an elf."
See how it feels?
For one thing, we're part of a long-standing D&D group that's been together, for the most part, since 1st ed AD&D. I have just now, this year, convinced them to give 4E a try. The only other DM besides myself is a stickler for "Official/Core" rules, and would not let me play a 4E version of my Half-ogre fighter unless there is an actual half-ogre race extant for 4E, even if it's just in a Dragon article or 3rd-party developer book.
Secondly, mechanically speaking, no, the Goliath is NOT what I wpuld need to recreate him for 4E, since Half-Ogres do not have "Mountain's Tenacity" or "Stone's Endurance". It's a case of "Close, but no cigar".
Third, this is a thread for "PHB-4 Speculation AND WISHLIST" (emphasis mine), and I feel it is inappropriate for others to step in and tell me what I want is wrong just because someone feels that it is too close to an extant PC race.
I have two words to say to that, "ELF" and "ELADRIN".
Here's a third, "gnome".
Why do we need three fey races?
Is the Half Breed race the only one you deem good enough to play?
Even in previous editions this one race is used sparingly, and isn't the usual choice given to players. You have a couple of races already that are interesting in the realm of strong man/slightly dark area, the Shadar-Kai in the Dragon Annual, the Half Orc is interesting in the PHB2 (Not one of my choices, though), the Goliath, as mentioned, is simular, the Minatuar coming up in the PHB3 is most likely the closest to your desired.
The main problem that your going to have with the Half Ogre is the size. Wizards has avoided Large races, the Minatuar most likely closing in on the max height of the Med race.
Races of Destiny, wasn't that rather late in the 3.5 run?
I would like to see less obviously humanoid race in PHB4. I always liked the concept of a race that walks on its hands and manipulates things with its feet, but that really doesn't make a race. I guess when I run down the line of stuff that makes sense to me to have a race made out of it (plant, construct, elemental, dragon, etc) I am having a really hard time figuring out where WotC can go next.
Hm...
Well, I've always felt that the most stark and influential distinctions you can make to a race involve its culture and way of life, so I still see plenty of opportunities to expand in every direction myself.
Indeed. However, that is culture not race, although the two can be tied. (Hence the focus on melee for the brawny minotaurs.)
Hobbits from the Shire differ culturally from Halflings from Eberron who differ from Kender who differ from Halflings in the Forgotten Realms, but they are all basically the same race.
I for one, am not so happy with the racial differentiation between Elves and Eladrin: wood elves, drow and high elves are simply cultural variations of the same race in my mind.
Happily, the rules do not prevent my perspective. I simply call an eladrin a high elf, whose cultural background gives him certain abilities and powers quite different from a wood elf and a drow.
Likewise, I can create an Avalonian half-ogre from Dark Age of Camelot (or 1st edition AD&D) using a Goliath and gluing a different picture onto my character sheet. (I shudder at the thought of a Dungeon Master who actually forbids what kind of pictures you use.)
I would like to see less obviously humanoid race in PHB4. I always liked the concept of a race that walks on its hands and manipulates things with its feet, but that really doesn't make a race. I guess when I run down the line of stuff that makes sense to me to have a race made out of it (plant, construct, elemental, dragon, etc) I am having a really hard time figuring out where WotC can go next.
Hm...
Lol. I like that idea. And it gets me thinking: the Star Wars Roleplaying games - did they ever publish stats for playing that race? (And what is its name?) It might be neat to play a Jedi of one of these guys. A real contrast to Sebulba, eh?
Half-Ogre's same thing. I would rather we get races from Wizard's that are whole communities unto themselves, rather than what would surely be brought from exceedingly rare circumstances, in which case it's up to the player's group.
As for Eladrin and Elves, I think this was a great step since in the original highly Tolkein dependent days there was a conundrum, it's fine in a novel to have a super-powered race, but in a game it has the problem of being unbalanced. The break between the two "archetypes" was perfect in my mind.
I love Tolkein, but I'm glad D&D is spreading it's own wings on the Races, hooray for Dragonborn and Tieflings.
Only issue is the slightly hazy understanding of Primal and Fey spirits. I like to try and downplay that they are in anyway different in my games, but it's clunky.
If it got me my Saurials (plus new saurian flavors) then I would be behind Half Ogre's but I really can't see them, which is a shame. Though again, eventually I am sure there will be a Savage Speices 4th Ed, I just hope it's done better then 3rd eds, and includes alot of the "forgotten races".
Edited. Realized I was using the wrong name, it's saurials not saurians. Man, I was way off ;)
abilities: (con,str) ok the same so far but remember all the races might be getting opptional third stats so maybe we have to wait and see if the goliath changes and then review our choices for ability bonuses again.
skills: goliaths are athletics, nature so this should be easy. lets go with intimidate cuz half-ogres are big and menacing, and endurance because they should be tough and hardy. hmm now we're treading half-orc territory? well lets move on...
size: medium, WotC is avoiding large player races in 4E and that's not just speculation. the half-ogre will have to sit on the outer edge of medium and contend for space on the size chart with the other biguns.
speed: 5, they should be slow and clumsy a nice way to sepparate them from goliaths and half-orcs however they'll need something to make up for it.
now comes the hard part, racial features: I have to say I'm terrible at this part. When it comes to thinking up new mechanics I always feel like they're either too powerful or too weak and this is why I think so many of us would rather mod an existing race with fluff and call it the race we want. I'm not a developer, I don't know what is balanced? If I were the game master, I'd sit down with my ogre loving player and smush a half-orc and a goliath together and trade some of their features around to make something new and different from both races but I'm pretty sure WotC wouldn't handle it that way and Your rules lawyer friend definitely wouldn't.
so in the end all you can do is wait and hope that the developers at WotC are a lil more open minded than the rest of us. One last word and i've said it before, if WotC avoided everything that was similar to preexisting material then we'd soon not have any new player's handbooks and they'd fail at their promise to deliver one each year.
They did make stats for Sebulba's race in the edition prior to saga edition of Star Wars, I don't know about saga though Omnirahk_half-Rahkshi.
There are Saga Edition stats. Can't remember which book they appear in, but they were first made available as part of an RPG tie-in to one of the minis sets (link).
Ability Scores: +2 Con, +2 Str OR +2 Wis (What with this being the apparent new format. Makes sense to me for them to be more in touch with the environment.)
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares (They may be slow, but they have BIG strides)
Vision: Low-Light
Languages: Common, Giant (Seemed to be the better idea...)
Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate, +2 Athletics (Scary and strong)
Racial Features:
Don't dodge, Take it!: +1 bonus to reflex (This differs it from the defence bonus of the goliath, and adds some nice flavour of the Half-Ogre just being beaten over and over again and not. Going. Down.)
Big Ugly: You may use your Constitution instead of Charisma for all Intimidate checks.
Unstoppable: You gain the Unstoppable racial power
Unstoppable
Toss them left and right. OUTTA MY WAY!
Encounter
Move Action
Shift your speed. You may shift through enemy spaces during this shift, if you do so, they are pushed 1 square into a square that is not in your movement path.
... That was pretty difficult, but I think it came out suitably different?
don't like the speed 6, but i wont argue about it as its basically just a hinderance.
i love big ugly! i wonder why something like this hasnt already been made a racial trait?
dont dodge, take it doesnt make sense, reflex is all about dodgeing? i think giving them a lil resistance to non-typed damage would better reflect what your going for here. that reminds me, how is this change to opptional stat bonuses going to change the fact that races who have bonuses to abilities that effect the same defense usually get a bonus to another non AC defense.
the racial encounter power doesnt seem powerfull enough? maybe if it simultaneously did a lil damage like apply your con or str mod as damage against one enemy you pass by durring this shift.
And thank you to both you and egg_thallid_sandwich, for not acting like 4E grognards and insisting/implying that I'm guilty of having WRONGBADFUN simply because I would like to be able to play one of my long-term pre-existing characters in 4E without having to radically alter the chracter by changing the character's race. I'd like to think that there is room in 4E for all styles of gaming in this system.
[EDIT] Why in the crap is it boldfacing the entirety of those two paragraphs? WTF?
Unstoppable: You gain the Unstoppable racial power
Unstoppable
Toss them left and right. OUTTA MY WAY!
Encounter
Move Action
Shift your speed. You may shift through enemy spaces during this shift, if you do so, they are pushed 1 square into a square that is not in your movement path.
...uhm, nice idea but broken: forced movement per encounter without attack means "free push in the spiked pit"
I think they should get something screaming "large size", such as a per-encounter action for having reach with a melee attack, and if you crit with it, push prone
and, for casterish chacarters, 1 per encounter use a single-target ranged implement attack as a single-target melee without opportunity attack, if crits push prone
so, like drows 2 powers but use 1 per encounter
and then proficiency in greatclub just for fluff
Outa the way! half-ogre racial encounter
You smack an enemy with the hilt of your weapon, a shield or an unarmed hand batting him aside with giant like strength.
target:one creature of large size or smaller
attack:str +2 vs reflex, +4 @ lv 11, +6 @ lv 21
melee touch
hit: 1D8 + str mod dmg and slide the enemy a number of squares equal to half your str mod, round down (minimum 1 square) if the creature is medium size or smaller the distance of the slide is your full strength modifier. increase to 2D8 @ lv 21
i know the ability to toss a large creature is a stretch but what better way to illustrate giant sized strength?
edit: i changed the distance of the slide for large creatures to half your str mod cuz it felt more balanced so if you have optimal strength at 1st lvl you can still toss a large creature 2 squares and if youre sub-optimal 1 square.
wow, come to think of it that should be the half-ogre's shtick. going toe to toe with giant sized monsters...
Against the Giants: You gain +1 bonus to all defenses versus attacks made by creatures that are large size or larger.
i think something like this might already or might soon exist as a feat for small characters but as a racial feature for a bigun i think it fits.
here's my version of...
Don't Dodge, Take It!: while you are bloodied you gain resistance to un-typed damage equal to half your level.
as for ability bonuses i think i perfer str, con/cha over str, con/wis.
str, con makes for great fighters, wardens, barbarians and melee combatants in general since con directly influences you HP.
str, cha; can we say "ogre mage" having charisma isnt necesarily always about being pretty its about infuencing people. it makes it so the half-ogre doesnt need a racial feature to make his intimidate attempts better, after all he'll get +2 intimidate as a racial skill bonus most likely. an ya ok i'll admit its a bit gamist but i dont think WotC is above doing things for gamist reasons themselves. dragonborn get a bonus to charisma, are you honestly gona tell me you'd do a big lizard?
And thank you to both you and egg_thallid_sandwich, for not acting like 4E grognards and insisting/implying that I'm guilty of having WRONGBADFUN simply because I would like to be able to play one of my long-term pre-existing characters in 4E without having to radically alter the chracter by changing the character's race.
Not that you were refering to me, but my point before was that the Race you had chosen in the past was one that was for consideration that lay outside the normal choices of the PHB and Campaign races. That is to say, it was mostly contingant on the approval from the DM. Did the 3.5 version have a level adjustment?
The starting list of races was disappointing to me, to be honest, as the Dragonborn was something of an odd duck. I had thought it was the replacement for the never to be seen again Half Orc. I was wrong, though I think it was a place holder for it until it came in the PHB2. The exclusion of the gnome was more of a blow to me, and the Tiefling was a bit dark for the Heroic play of D&D.
I did like the split of the elves, and the new rules for small races using med weapons. It was these things that popped out to me right away when I first browsed the book.
To be sure, a conversion from the previous edition was highly sought, and Wizards, wisely, said that it could not provide such a chart/tool/way to convert characters to the new edition. It was the bain of many when they tried it the last time (2nd to 3rd). I think a fresh start could be the best bet, making a completely new character and seeing how it goes. Isn't that the point of the game?
but then suddenly PHB2 gave us three more strong races; half-orcs, goliaths and longtooth shifters. it surprised me to say the least.
so when we look to the future let's assume that anything could be possible. a half-ogre or a cat-folk or a sea-elf could be looming there somewhere hiding under an imense shadow called doubt.
the dragonborn felt like a placeholder for the half-orc to me aswell. but not once did i beleive half-orcs were out of the game entirely. dragonborn as the only race in the first PHB with a bonus to str seemed like the new bully on the block. "I'm gona smack you with my greatsword and guess what, i breath fire!"
but then suddenly PHB2 gave us three more strong races; half-orcs, goliaths and longtooth shifters. it surprised me to say the least.
so when we look to the future let's assume that anything could be possible. a half-ogre or a cat-folk or a sea-elf could be looming there somewhere hiding under an imense shadow called doubt.
I really hope they don't do aquatic elves. There is already a mythical fey race that lives underwater that could easily fill that role. Mermaids. I say no to the endless elf + environment. No aquatic elves, no graveyard elves, no outer-space elves, no under-the-couch elves, no rest-stop-bathroom elves, none of it.
Thats a WTF-Elf.
i had actually ran a pirates of darkwater themed game where i refluffed and smushed eladrin and elves togther turning them into merfolk who descended from the old inhabitants of a mystical floating civilization that met its end in some magical cataclysm. an aquaman/atlantis sorta vibe. they now revile their old arcane practices in favor of a more simple way of life (primal) but pockets of some still cling to the old ways and thirst for power.
or a lobster like race such as MtG homarids would be neat. maybe they have one humanoid hand for detailed manual dexterity and one grasping claw. plus some feature to reflect their carapace. that reminds me i wonder how the thri-kreen are turning out?
I really hope they don't do aquatic elves. There is already a mythical fey race that lives underwater that could easily fill that role. Mermaids. I say no to the endless elf + environment. No aquatic elves, no graveyard elves, no outer-space elves, no under-the-couch elves, no rest-stop-bathroom elves, none of it.
I don't really see there being a problem with the basic concept of aquatic-elves (a slender fey race that lives under water). That said they need to have a visual appearance that is more than just an elf with gills (the artwork in Stormrack did a reasonable job, IMO) A more unique name would probably also be a good idea, with the term aquatic-elf being relegated to slang used by ignorant mortals that think elf and fey are synonymous.
As for mermaids, they're no good in there traditional form (lack of legs). I've seen some interpretations of merfolk that might work (notably the Lorwyn variety from M:tG or possibly the Zora of the Zelda series), but in my opinion most of those interpretations would also double as what I consider a plausible interpretation of an 'aquatic-elf'.
I really hope they don't do aquatic elves. There is already a mythical fey race that lives underwater that could easily fill that role. Mermaids. I say no to the endless elf + environment. No aquatic elves, no graveyard elves, no outer-space elves, no under-the-couch elves, no rest-stop-bathroom elves, none of it.
I don't really see there being a problem with the basic concept of aquatic-elves (a slender fey race that lives under water). That said they need to have a visual appearance that is more than just an elf with gills (the artwork in Stormrack did a reasonable job, IMO) A more unique name would probably also be a good idea, with the term aquatic-elf being relegated to slang used by ignorant mortals that think elf and fey are synonymous.
As for mermaids, they're no good in there traditional form (lack of legs). I've seen some interpretations of merfolk that might work (notably the Lorwyn variety from M:tG or possibly the Zora of the Zelda series), but in my opinion most of those interpretations would also double as what I consider a plausible interpretation of an 'aquatic-elf'.
An aquatic "merfolk" race would have to have some sort of amphibious ability, since a race that can only function underwater is quite limited in the types of adventures it can go on. One way I see to make it work would be to give them a racial at-will power or racial feature that gives them +1 or +2 to speed while swimming, the fluff being that their legs transform into the "fin" when they're underwater, but transform back into legs when they need to go on shore.
The stat block for such a race would probably be CHA/CON (with WIS as a alt stat in place of CON if that's going to be the norm), since the merfolk favored the bard class in 3.5E.
An aquatic "merfolk" race would have to have some sort of amphibious ability, since a race that can only function underwater is quite limited in the types of adventures it can go on. One way I see to make it work would be to give them a racial at-will power or racial feature that gives them +1 or +2 to speed while swimming, the fluff being that their legs transform into the "fin" when they're underwater, but transform back into legs when they need to go on shore.
That works well enough mechanicaly, though I personally abhor merfolk that transform. The concept was nifty enough when I first saw it years ago in Splash, but for about the past decade or so I've found it counter-intuitive (from an RPG perspective at least). For me atleast, part of the fascination with playing an aquatic race is being aquatic. If the race becomes functionally human on land, even if only in appearance (fluff), I feel it defeats the purpose.
While I agree that any kind of merfolk must be amphibious, I prefer more of a fish hybrid concept; humanoid with scaly skin, webbed fingers and toes, and fins along the arms and legs.
abilities: int,wis
this was the stat combo i used for my ancient atlantean merfolk who shunned arcane and embraced primal mentioned in a previous post. it worked for that culture reflecting their aptitude for both power sources but if we're talking some other culture i would suggest a different stat choice honestly there are alot of good choices.
speed:6 swim:7
there's no reason the ability to swim well should be an encounter power. a swim speed allows them a full movement under water and the ability to forgo an athletics roll.
skills: +2 arcana, +2 nature
again this was the skills bonuses i used for the merfolk in my game who were very much a melding of elf and eladrin. in a culturally different setting i might go with something else.
Amphibious: +5 to endurance rolls to hold your breath under water.
i don't think any race should just be allowed to breath water like air and this feature only effects the player under very rare circumstances in most games and also lets them feel at home under water in an aquatic campaign.
merfolk weapon proficiency: you gain proficiency with the trident
this was easy, convert the eladrin/elven weapon prof to trident. also i can imagine some feats like githzerai blade master wich adds scaling damage. and a feat that allows casters to use an enchanted trident as an implement, and for wizards lets them use staff of defense with a trident.
fey origin: why not?
other stuff: because at the time i was just trying to refluff myself a merfolk i ended up giving them some stuff that didnt exactly fit just to round them off and be done with it. for instance i gave them wild step so they could shift thru difficult terrain (specifically puddles but other terrain types were included) and their encounter power was basically a refluffed version of the eladrin's fey step. rather than blink out and back their teleport allowed them to turn into water and flow through the battlefield reforming in a new location. i was satisfied with it then but since now we're brainstorming for a new race id rather come up with something new and different.
and if it never happens i have my fluffed merfolk to fall back on.
They do breathe water. I don't unstand your objection, egg_thalid_sandwich, to a race being able to breathe water. Yes, it has a limited use, that's why it counts as a non-ability balance wise. Yes, it allows them to be at home in the water; isn't that part of the point of having an aquatic race?
They are fey. The manual of the planes classifies merfolk as a race that exists in the oceans and lakes of the feywild.
I went with a straight speed of 6 (slither and swim). I could see reducing their on-land slither speed to 5 if you simultaneously boost their swim speed to 7.
Merfolk weapon proficiency should cover melee and ranged weapons not inhibited by fighting underwater. I would have it include both tridents and crossbows.
I'm currently working on the attributes and skills. They have +2 Cha, and will get +2 on another attribute I am currently undecided on (I am leaning heavily towards Con, though). I don't know what skills are most appropriate.
They have a racial ability called song of the sea. Song of the sea lets them choose from a couple of racial powers. One is a sonic attack power inspired by the dragonborn's breath and by comic characters (heroes and villains) who can break glass and stone with a scream. Another is control oriented and immoblizes a target with an entrancing song. The last is leadership based and allows an ally to take a second wind at a reduced action cost (standard becomes move, move becomes minor, minor become free). Further racial feats will modify these powers.
As far as speculation/wishlist for PHB4; I'd like to see racial feats that let a character get a "higher level" racial power (for lack of a better term). A kind of power swap feat, if you will. Or feats that make characters able to use their racial power more often. Perhaps a paragon or epic feat that makes one able to use their power (assuming the base power is per encounter) at will or twice per encounter.
They are fey. The manual of the planes classifies merfolk as a race that exists in the oceans and lakes of the feywild.
Really? That's a little disappointing to me. I would prefer true merfolk as non-innately magical denizens of the mortal world, saving the waters of the feywild for something a bit more exotic. Oh well
Still, while there probably is conceptual space for more aquatic races, I think a race needs a better schtick than just "It lives underwater!"
Because most campaigns aren't going to take place underwater.
Don't you mean Horseshoecrabden?
Nonono, Horseshoecrabdens are where the Horseshoecrabmen and the Horseshoecrabwomen and wee little Horseshoecrablings live.
Don't we already have an aquatic race, though? Or at least, 1/5 of a race is aquatic (I am of course referring to Watersoul Genasi).
Still, while there probably is conceptual space for more aquatic races, I think a race needs a better schtick than just "It lives underwater!"
Because most campaigns aren't going to take place underwater.
You mean 2/9 of a race is aquatic. Two of the Nine souls grant water breathing.
My point still stands.
Psst. Horseshoecrabfolk.
Dear Gods NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! NOT THIS AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If these guys ever show up, I want Platypusfolk!
I want it to have a savage races focus to it. Goblinoids, Kobolds, Catfolk, Gnolls that kind've thing. They could use it to introduce the Elemental power source and deem it getting power from the primordials or something.
Psionics, Primal, and Elemental power source. It'd be cool and make for an interesting campaign.
They do breathe water. I don't unstand your objection, egg_thalid_sandwich, to a race being able to breathe water. Yes, it has a limited use, that's why it counts as a non-ability balance wise. Yes, it allows them to be at home in the water; isn't that part of the point of having an aquatic race?
you misunderstand me, the ability I listed is an alternative to water breathing and a non ability balance wise but allowing a race to breath water suddenly makes all attempts by the GM to use water as a trap or obstacle fail. water breathing is essentially an automatic success for endurance checks to hold your breath underwater. auto success detracts from the challenge of the game IMO there should always be a risk involved a chance for failure even if the opportunity to use it happens rarely.
this should clear things up for you...
Amphibious: +5 to endurance rolls to hold your breath under water.
i don't think any race should just be allowed to breath water like air. This version of amphibious only effects the player under very rare circumstances in most games and also lets them feel at home under water in an aquatic campaign.
yes surviving under water is an aquatic must. My version will still allow players to do that most of the time and some of you may think the idea of a merfolk drowning preposterous, i agree. i just hate automatic successes and if you don't understand why then you've never been a GM.
edit: i've just realized ive been a hypocryte yet again. giving merfolk a swim speed is an auto success for athletics. maybe they should breath water and they can move their full speed or full speed plus a small bonus in water with a +5 to swim rolls. I'm changing my stance because in a group with one water breather and the rest land dwellers traped in a water hazard most of the players will still be in danger and the merfolk can disable the trap so there will still be a risk involved. but if you have a group of all water breathers then dont bother with water traps.
An aquatic "merfolk" race would have to have some sort of amphibious ability, since a race that can only function underwater is quite limited in the types of adventures it can go on. One way I see to make it work would be to give them a racial at-will power or racial feature that gives them +1 or +2 to speed while swimming, the fluff being that their legs transform into the "fin" when they're underwater, but transform back into legs when they need to go on shore.
That works well enough mechanicaly, though I personally abhor merfolk that transform. The concept was nifty enough when I first saw it years ago in Splash, but for about the past decade or so I've found it counter-intuitive (from an RPG perspective at least). For me atleast, part of the fascination with playing an aquatic race is being aquatic. If the race becomes functionally human on land, even if only in appearance (fluff), I feel it defeats the purpose.
While I agree that any kind of merfolk must be amphibious, I prefer more of a fish hybrid concept; humanoid with scaly skin, webbed fingers and toes, and fins along the arms and legs.
I agree that this aquatic species shouldn't just be "underwater humans" (or elves, for that matter). They'd probably have light blue or green skin with a light scaly look, with webbed feet and hands and fins similar to how you described it. They might also have black, fish-like eyes and hair of a dark green, blue, or black color to help blend in under water.
Also, this species should have true water breathing rather than some neutered version. If the watersoul genasi can breathe underwater, why can't the fish people?
i just hate automatic successes and if you don't understand why then you've never been a GM.
I DM all of the time, and I totally disagree. I love seeing my players succeed, and even if that success is automatic, that has its own level of pride attached to it. I understand wanting certain things to be a challenge, sure, but I don't think everything needs to be all of the time. For instance, just because somebody can breath underwater (Watersoul Genasi already do!) or don't need to breath at all (Warforged already don't!) doesn't mean that there can't be other challenges associated with being underwater for them to need to overcome.
Plus, like you just said, the chances are fantastic that most members of the group still won't be able to keep up with the one or maybe two members that aren't inconvenienced by not having air to breath, so because this is a group-oriented game, I see nothing wrong with letting that member of the group shine in such a scenario. Heck, and if every member of the group happens not to be inconvenienced by not having air to breath, then that just opens up a bunch new things that you can challenge the group with that you couldn't before.
Basically, I think you're overreacting to the ability to breath underwater. If it were something like flight or burrowing or blindsense or a teleport speed, I could totally understand, but I don't think that being able to breath underwater is an ability quite of that caliber.
For the benefit of those who didn't see the picture, It depicts a quartet of mermaids huddled together on a small hill poking out of water that is green-ish brown and has tires and a refrigerator in it. The seeting otherwise looks like a junkyard.