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PHBIII and IV: Oriental Adventures?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
the_fan
Aug 22, 2008 5:21:32 Cross-posted from ENWorld:

Random musing I had. If we get the expected four Primal classes in the upcoming PHBII, then that means all covered power sources will have four core classes. So with the PHBIII and IV, it would be a good time to start all over. What's left?

Shadow, Ki, Psionics, and Elemental.

When I look at those powers and pick three, I can't help but get an oriental feel to it. Even leaving out ki, Psionics has always had a slight eastern flavor to it, albeit one leaning more towards India and the near east than the far east. Shadow brings to mind void disciples and ninja (though those could easily be ki instead). Elemental makes me think of Shugenja and Sha'ir (again near eastern, but still eastern). Ki is obvious.

Could it be that the PHB III and IV will be more Asian influenced than I and II, possibly even qualifying as Oriental Adventures?
#2
Steely_Dan
Aug 22, 2008 5:53:21 That's an interesting theory (I dig it). Since I'm doubtful at this point that we'll see an actual 4th Ed OA book, seeing as they have this campaign setting a year deal, you may very well have a point.

I also think it's a good idea to spread Asian/Oriental material across the D&D line, we already have the Kensei paragon path. I would also like it if they didn't lump all classes with an Asian/Oriental title in the Ki power source, but, again, the Kensei paragon path gives me hope that they won't.

While I have no problem with the monk being Ki, other Asian/Oriental classes could come from any power source (as you have said, an nice ideas– I'm just throwing these out there:

-Yogi (psionic)
-Ninja (shadow)
-Wu-Jen (elemental)

Etc.

Oh, and as for Ki, since it is the power source of the soul, how about an Incarnate?
#3
ranadiel
Aug 22, 2008 7:47:56 You certainly bring up a good point. However I'd say that these power sources are just as oriental as at least some of the power sources that we have now. While Shadow can certainly have ninjas and void disciples, it also is home to the necromancer which is much more western in orgin(I believe). The idea of elements is something present in many cultures, dating as far back as the greeks, so it is hardly tied to a single culture or even region. Ki while home to the monk, is also the most likely place for Incarnum classes to show up. And psionics can really go any way as some people see it as eastern, others as sci-fi, and still more as simply fantasy.

While certainly they could make PHBIII-PHBIV much more oriental in nature, they have just as many options to make it western fantasy based.
#4
munchmausen1
Aug 22, 2008 9:48:35 Shadow-Defender is also how a number of people (myself included) anticipate previous classes like Hexblade, Blackguard, etc. to come into play. I wouldn't exactly classify those as particularly eastern concepts, but they do fall under the header of classes that are less like an archetypal D&D setting than Paladins and Rangers.
#5
lady_ishtar
Aug 22, 2008 10:18:58 i can see the release of Psionic power source connected to release of Dark Sun. and we all know Dark Sun is as Oriental as apple pie.
#6
Steely_Dan
Aug 22, 2008 10:30:06
and we all know Dark Sun is as Oriental as apple pie.

They do have sensei.
#7
the_ubbergeek
Aug 22, 2008 10:54:15 Dark Sun seems to be a bit of a mish-mash and not earthly at the same time.

There is hints that in a distant past, the Green Ages maybe, there was different cultures around - or so the making of the cities alude so. I means, there is by example Nibenay who have a vague Indian/Indochinese/Malay feel, Balik(?) who had a vague classical antiquity feel, another an africanesque feel, etc...

The Monk could be maybe worked in it, as the Shugenja maybe. Monk as a sort of hermit, errand warrior like yamabushi and all, and Shugenja could fit as an elemental mystic of a similar bent... I dunno.
#8
marius4
Aug 22, 2008 12:32:12 I wonder if the 3e & older "Oriental Adventures" concept isn't a bit out of place now. I'm not talking about the word oriental, although I could certainly stand to see that replaced. I'm more talking about how they are rolling out the 4e line. I imagine they'll simply put out a campaign setting that draws more heavily from Asian mythology and lore, rather than try to shoehorn it into a core product (PHB#, etc.) or a new type of book (i.e., "how to" books).

Besides, won't every campaign guide essentially be a "how to make your campaign like x" book?
Renaissance/Medieval Europe high fantasy = FRCG
Pseudo-Modern* Steampunk fantasy = Eberron CG *(Okay, I'm a little off there.)
Gothic horror fantasy = Ravenloft
Medieval Europe epic fantasy = DLCG
Desert-land barbaric fantasy = Darksun CG
Ancient Asia intrigue fantasy = XYCG

I just hope it's as broadly "Asian" as FR is "European," which is to say VERY.......broadly, that is, not European. ;) In fact, Wizards would probably need to keep it broad if it's supposed to hold its own as a certain year's campaign setting for all gamers to dip into.

Now that I think about it, it probably won't be enough to simply have real world mythology analogues. Each setting will also need to be defined by a feel or type of fantasy. Plus, it helps avoid trite stereotyping of vast cultures and histories if the goal is to create a specific FANTASY campaign setting rather than replicate RL history +magic. FR is the best example, I think. It's not a trite recreation of Medieval Europe plus some magic; it has a feel and style of its own.
#9
the_ubbergeek
Aug 22, 2008 16:13:43 Eberrom would be a better example there... No nations really stand up as a copy of real world in any meaningfull way (well, most).
#10
Luis_Carlos
Aug 23, 2008 11:18:09 Shadow power source can wait. I have thought psi power would be published in his own book "handbook of psionic powers".

Hexblade would be a good shadow defender but I would rather ninja as ki striker. It would beterr assasin as shadow striker

Shadow power soucer is better for horror campaings as Ravenloft.

For a short time necromancer and undeads are cool, but after you get bored.

Could Far Realm be origin of a new power soucer? (I´m thinking about bound, from Tome of Magic).
#11
ranadiel
Aug 23, 2008 12:53:31
Shadow power source can wait. I have thought psi power would be published in his own book "handbook of psionic powers".

Could Far Realm be origin of a new power soucer? (I´m thinking about bound, from Tome of Magic).

-They've already said that all classes will be in either PHBs or campaign setting player's guid, so there will be no "Handbook of Psionic Powers".

-We already have the binder essentially present in the Warlock so there is no need to make a seperate power source.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 the_fan Aug 22, 2008 5:21:32	Cross-posted from ENWorld: Random musing I had. If we get the expected four Primal classes in the upcoming PHBII, then that means all covered power sources will have four core classes. So with the PHBIII and IV, it would be a good time to start all over. What's left? Shadow, Ki, Psionics, and Elemental. When I look at those powers and pick three, I can't help but get an oriental feel to it. Even leaving out ki, Psionics has always had a slight eastern flavor to it, albeit one leaning more towards India and the near east than the far east. Shadow brings to mind void disciples and ninja (though those could easily be ki instead). Elemental makes me think of Shugenja and Sha'ir (again near eastern, but still eastern). Ki is obvious. Could it be that the PHB III and IV will be more Asian influenced than I and II, possibly even qualifying as Oriental Adventures?
#2 Steely_Dan Aug 22, 2008 5:53:21	That's an interesting theory (I dig it). Since I'm doubtful at this point that we'll see an actual 4th Ed OA book, seeing as they have this campaign setting a year deal, you may very well have a point. I also think it's a good idea to spread Asian/Oriental material across the D&D line, we already have the Kensei paragon path. I would also like it if they didn't lump all classes with an Asian/Oriental title in the Ki power source, but, again, the Kensei paragon path gives me hope that they won't. While I have no problem with the monk being Ki, other Asian/Oriental classes could come from any power source (as you have said, an nice ideas– I'm just throwing these out there: -Yogi (psionic) -Ninja (shadow) -Wu-Jen (elemental) Etc. Oh, and as for Ki, since it is the power source of the soul, how about an Incarnate?
#3 ranadiel Aug 22, 2008 7:47:56	You certainly bring up a good point. However I'd say that these power sources are just as oriental as at least some of the power sources that we have now. While Shadow can certainly have ninjas and void disciples, it also is home to the necromancer which is much more western in orgin(I believe). The idea of elements is something present in many cultures, dating as far back as the greeks, so it is hardly tied to a single culture or even region. Ki while home to the monk, is also the most likely place for Incarnum classes to show up. And psionics can really go any way as some people see it as eastern, others as sci-fi, and still more as simply fantasy. While certainly they could make PHBIII-PHBIV much more oriental in nature, they have just as many options to make it western fantasy based.
#4 munchmausen1 Aug 22, 2008 9:48:35	Shadow-Defender is also how a number of people (myself included) anticipate previous classes like Hexblade, Blackguard, etc. to come into play. I wouldn't exactly classify those as particularly eastern concepts, but they do fall under the header of classes that are less like an archetypal D&D setting than Paladins and Rangers.
#5 lady_ishtar Aug 22, 2008 10:18:58	i can see the release of Psionic power source connected to release of Dark Sun. and we all know Dark Sun is as Oriental as apple pie.
#6 Steely_Dan Aug 22, 2008 10:30:06	and we all know Dark Sun is as Oriental as apple pie. They do have sensei.
#7 the_ubbergeek Aug 22, 2008 10:54:15	Dark Sun seems to be a bit of a mish-mash and not earthly at the same time. There is hints that in a distant past, the Green Ages maybe, there was different cultures around - or so the making of the cities alude so. I means, there is by example Nibenay who have a vague Indian/Indochinese/Malay feel, Balik(?) who had a vague classical antiquity feel, another an africanesque feel, etc... The Monk could be maybe worked in it, as the Shugenja maybe. Monk as a sort of hermit, errand warrior like yamabushi and all, and Shugenja could fit as an elemental mystic of a similar bent... I dunno.
#8 marius4 Aug 22, 2008 12:32:12	I wonder if the 3e & older "Oriental Adventures" concept isn't a bit out of place now. I'm not talking about the word oriental, although I could certainly stand to see that replaced. I'm more talking about how they are rolling out the 4e line. I imagine they'll simply put out a campaign setting that draws more heavily from Asian mythology and lore, rather than try to shoehorn it into a core product (PHB#, etc.) or a new type of book (i.e., "how to" books). Besides, won't every campaign guide essentially be a "how to make your campaign like x" book? Renaissance/Medieval Europe high fantasy = FRCG Pseudo-Modern* Steampunk fantasy = Eberron CG (Okay, I'm a little off there.) Gothic horror fantasy = Ravenloft Medieval Europe epic fantasy = DLCG Desert-land barbaric fantasy = Darksun CG Ancient Asia intrigue fantasy = XYCG I just hope it's as broadly "Asian" as FR is "European," which is to say VERY.......broadly, that is, not European. ;) In fact, Wizards would probably need* to keep it broad if it's supposed to hold its own as a certain year's campaign setting for all gamers to dip into. Now that I think about it, it probably won't be enough to simply have real world mythology analogues. Each setting will also need to be defined by a feel or type of fantasy. Plus, it helps avoid trite stereotyping of vast cultures and histories if the goal is to create a specific FANTASY campaign setting rather than replicate RL history +magic. FR is the best example, I think. It's not a trite recreation of Medieval Europe plus some magic; it has a feel and style of its own.
#9 the_ubbergeek Aug 22, 2008 16:13:43	Eberrom would be a better example there... No nations really stand up as a copy of real world in any meaningfull way (well, most).
#10 Luis_Carlos Aug 23, 2008 11:18:09	Shadow power source can wait. I have thought psi power would be published in his own book "handbook of psionic powers". Hexblade would be a good shadow defender but I would rather ninja as ki striker. It would beterr assasin as shadow striker Shadow power soucer is better for horror campaings as Ravenloft. For a short time necromancer and undeads are cool, but after you get bored. Could Far Realm be origin of a new power soucer? (I´m thinking about bound, from Tome of Magic).
#11 ranadiel Aug 23, 2008 12:53:31	Shadow power source can wait. I have thought psi power would be published in his own book "handbook of psionic powers". Could Far Realm be origin of a new power soucer? (I´m thinking about bound, from Tome of Magic). -They've already said that all classes will be in either PHBs or campaign setting player's guid, so there will be no "Handbook of Psionic Powers". -We already have the binder essentially present in the Warlock so there is no need to make a seperate power source.