Sorcerer King Pact might be the dragon pact lots of people have been wanting, but the powers really didn't give anything away.
Still interesting nice find mate.
Weapon breaking rules look like they suck. I doubt I'd ever run true Dark Sun, but I'd certainly enjoy stealing some of the things like themes for use in a non-Dark Sun game.
Hmm interesting, seems characters get to gain themese now. Ones there seem to be Gladiator, Elemental Priest, Wilder, Templar, and Veiled Alliance. New sorceror build. Arcane defiling is present(although the Wizard doesn't seem to have it). Frankly defiling does not seem to be worth it to me. Oh and we have Thri-Kreen stats.
Weapon breaking rules look like they suck. I doubt I'd ever run true Dark Sun, but I'd certainly enjoy stealing some of the things like themes for use in a non-Dark Sun game.
To that effect, it looks like the Elemental Priests really are a theme for Primal. Templars really do fit in as Sorcerer-King Pact Warlocks, and Gladiators as fighters. It may be that these themes fit over different classes, though, so we'll see.
I'm happy though, because I like how they did this. I'm also happy that Half-Giants are using the statistics of Goliaths, and just calling them Half-Giants, rather than creating a whole new Giantish race.
We also hav Mul stats now. Conclusively Str/Con. Another Str/Con. Okay. I can deal.
Thri-Kreen are Con/Wis.
Also, the five themes (Veiled Alliance-Arcane, Templar-Arcane, Elemental Priest-Primal, Gladiator-Martial, and Wilder-Psionic) are not exclusive to classes of their associated Power Source; the Mul Barbarian uses the Gladiator theme. Note that I got the theme information from the power keyed into the theme, rather than from the character using it.
+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom
+2 Athletics, +2 Nature
7 squares
low-light vision
Multiple Arms: Once per turn, you can draw or sheathe a weapon (or retrieve or stow an item stored on your person) as a free action.
Torpor: Rather than sleep, thri-kreen enter a torpid state. In this state you are still aware of your surroundings, and require only 4 hours to gain the benefits of an extended rest.
Kreen Claws
Encounter
Minor Action Melee 1
One, two, or three enemies
Str, Dex, or Wis +3 vs. AC; +6 at 11th level, +9 at 21st level*
1d8 + Dex damage, +1 for each target.
2d8 at 11th level, 3d8 at 21st.*
*Additional ability scores and damage scaling are assumptions based on current racial abilities.
Common, Thri-kreen
Also, Mul seem very off-kilter. Here's what I worked out, but it doesn't seem to make much sense. Seems that they're overcompensating for something…
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution
+2 Endurance
6 Squares
NOrmal
Common, Dwarven
Tireless: As long as you slpet at least 6 hours in the last 72 hours, you gain full benefit from an extended rest.
No Racial Encounter.
Correct me if I read this wrong, but Tireless seems to be that if you slept, then you can use your daily powers THREE TIMES before the next extended rest. That's crazy. Of course, if you chose to "use your extended rest" before you used all your dailies, it would use up the remaining dailies for that slot. But essentially, dailies become almost encounter powers. That's CRAZY. Please let me be wrong.
I got this for the kreen. Sorry about the lack of formatting. ^_^;;+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom
+2 Athletics, +2 Nature
7 squares
low-light vision
Multiple Arms: Once per turn, you can draw or sheathe a weapon (or retrieve or stow an item stored on your person) as a free action.
Torpor: Rather than sleep, thri-kreen enter a torpid state. In this state you are still aware of your surroundings, and require only 4 hours to gain the benefits of an extended rest.Kreen Claws
Encounter
Minor Action Melee 1
One, two, or three enemies
Str, Dex, or Wis +3 vs. AC; +6 at 11th level, +9 at 21st level*
1d8 + Dex damage, +1 for each target.
2d8 at 11th level, 3d8 at 21st.*
*Additional ability scores and damage scaling are assumptions based on current racial abilities.
If you look at the ability score arrays from the PH, the Thri-Kreen seems to have the 18, 14, 11, 10, 10, 8 array which would give them a +2 Dex, +2 Wis not +2 Con, +2 Wis
That's... a very good point. Was rather rushed in writing it up. ^_^;;
Also, the five themes (Veiled Alliance-Arcane, Templar-Arcane, Elemental Priest-Primal, Gladiator-Martial, and Wilder-Psionic) are not exclusive to classes of their associated Power Source; the Mul Barbarian uses the Gladiator theme. Note that I got the theme information from the power keyed into the theme, rather than from the character using it.
However, somewhere (maybe the podcast notes? Rich Baker's blog?) it was said that themes are keyed to types of characters via the powers offered. So while technically anyone can choose the Gladiator theme, the Gladiator theme powers may all have the Weapon keyword, thus limiting its desirability for non-melee characters.
@the DS characters: Hey! No fair! I totally had the exploding spirit companion powers down for my homebrew rules already!
Tireless: As long as you slpet at least 6 hours in the last 72 hours, you gain full benefit from an extended rest.
Correct me if I read this wrong, but Tireless seems to be that if you slept, then you can use your daily powers THREE TIMES before the next extended rest. That's crazy. Of course, if you chose to "use your extended rest" before you used all your dailies, it would use up the remaining dailies for that slot. But essentially, dailies become almost encounter powers. That's CRAZY. Please let me be wrong.
You're reading it wrong. The normal extended rest rules require you to have slept 6 hours within the past 24 to gain the benefit of one. The Mul just has to have those 6 hours within 72 hours, so he can stay up on watch while everyone else is sleeping for your extended rest.
Ritter missed that Thri-kreen get two languages:
Common, Thri-kreen
Also, Mul seem very off-kilter. Here's what I worked out, but it doesn't seem to make much sense. Seems that they're overcompensating for something…
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution
+2 Endurance
6 Squares
NOrmal
Common, Dwarven
Tireless: As long as you slpet at least 6 hours in the last 72 hours, you gain full benefit from an extended rest.
No Racial Encounter.
Correct me if I read this wrong, but Tireless seems to be that if you slept, then you can use your daily powers THREE TIMES before the next extended rest. That's crazy. Of course, if you chose to "use your extended rest" before you used all your dailies, it would use up the remaining dailies for that slot. But essentially, dailies become almost encounter powers. That's CRAZY. Please let me be wrong.
I think the tireless ability is more along the lines of that they don't have to sleep every night, since you can only take an extended rest once per day (12 hours between extended rests). It does allow a goup of muls to go a few days without sleep with no negative effects.
This doesn't explain lack of other racial features, a second skill bonus, and a racial encounter power, though.
All the characters use the 18, 14, 11 pre racial stats from the looks of thing so think the Thri-kreen are Dex/Wis instead of Con/Wis.
They definitely are Dex/Wis. I made a mistake while calculating. It can't be Con/Wis, but it can be Dex/Wis. It comes out to 21 Ability Score Points used for Con/Wis, but 22 for Dex/Wis.
That said, we got another Dex/Wis, and another Str/Con. Poor Dex/Cha, it's falling behind! We need another Dex/Cha race!
Dark Ones in PH4?
Templars really do fit in as Sorcerer-King Pact Warlocks
I couldn't disagree more. Templars are the holy warriors of the sorcerer-kings. There is one type of person in zalanthas that is universally despised. And that is a defiler. People put up with the corruption and tyranny of the city-states in exchange for protection from defilers. Because all arcane classes can be defilers, warlocks are either defilers or preservers. The idea of templar preservers is ludicrous to me, but so is the idea of templar defilers. People would simply flee the city-states and live in the "free-men towns" if templars truly are simply defilers.
Getting templars so terribly wrong has killed off a lot of my interest in 4th ed Dark Sun. I'm inclined at this point to just stick with Eberron. If my players really, really want a Dark Sun game, I'll run it. But I'll advise them not to buy the 4th ed Dark Sun book. Because I'm going to have to house-rule almost the entire thing out by the looks of it. Players can get their mul and thri-kreen stats from the Character Builder.
Templars really do fit in as Sorcerer-King Pact Warlocks
I couldn't disagree more. Templars are the holy warriors of the sorcerer-kings. There is one type of person in zalanthas that is universally despised. And that is a defiler. Because all arcane classes can be defilers, warlocks are either defilers or preservers. The idea of templar preservers is ludicrous to me, but so is the idea of templar defilers.
Don't the Sorcerer-Kings openly practice defiling?
Don't the Sorcerer-Kings openly practice defiling?
Really? Wow. Dark Sun kinda sucks. I knew it wasn't as good as I thought it was. But if this is the case, it really does suck. The setting has no appeal to me whatsoever.
What do you all think are the odds of getting a copy of the actual adventure for DMs to run?
DM
- Mul looks fishy to me. Tireless is basically a fluff ability, like Trance or Origin, so... Do they get anything? No racial power, no racial feature...
I suppose it's possible that they have something going on like what the Dwarf has where there's a racial feature that effectively acts as an encounter power, but I should think that would be noted somewhere on the character sheet.
Actually... What's this random "Gladiator Theme Attack" that it has? Could it be that the Mul get something like what the Half-Elf gets where it gets to pick an encounter power from some other sort of list? For example, this would be like if a race gave you your encounter power from the Spellscarred list?
If that's the case, then it's really possible that they get not much else. After all, Half-Elves get, like, nothing of real value after Dilettante.
Then again, looking at the Thri-Kreen, it has a similar encounter power, so it's probably more likely that this is a feat power, meaning I still have no idea what's going on...
- I'm not sure if you guys missed it, but it looks like the second Mul skill boost is to Streetwise. It says +1 Streetwise, not -1 like the other CHA skills.
Then again, the Thri-Kreen also seems to have a random +2 Streetwise, so that might just come from something else like background or theme.
- Mul appear to be missing the typical +1 NAD granted to races with ability scores going towards the same defense. If this is not a mistake, it needs to get explained to us at some point, because the reasoning for the Eladrin and Goliath bonuses were made quite clear, and I see no reason why they would go back on that logic when doing so is unnecessary for balance. I'm still not sure why they violated it for the Kalashtar, and I've been house-ruling that in my games...
- Thri-Kreen were dealt with much more simply than most people expected, which I could not be happier about. The only thing that bothers me is that I feel like "Multiple Arms" should have been once during each of your turns and not just once per turn, and that might even have been the intent, but I guess it's probably fine how it is. It may cause some issues with trading out weapons during another creature's turn, but it's late, and I'm not coherent enough to give an exmaple of why I think this other than that I feel like there's some way to abuse trading weapons in the middle of an opportunity attack or something... I don't know...
Other than that, the racial power is a bit meh as far as flavor goes. I think they could have gone in other directions that would have been a lot more interesting.
. . .
I general, these just raise more questions than they answer. Now I can't wait to get my hands on this book to figure out WTF is going on here...
Don't the Sorcerer-Kings openly practice defiling?
Really? Wow. Dark Sun kinda sucks. I knew it wasn't as good as I thought it was. But if this is the case, it really does suck. The setting has no appeal to me whatsoever.
So ... you never actually understood Dark Sun in the first place then? The entire point here is that Athas works just like real life - people in power are allowed to be hypocrites, because they have power. The Sorcerer Kings and their Templars are allowed to do pretty much whatever they want, because a) they have more power than you, and b) they protect you from things that make them look like saints. Though Templars do have some restrictions - they can do mostly what they want, but if they upset the wrong people they get their butts handed to them by their superiors.
This is phenomenal. Thank you for the heads up, mudbunny!
What do you all think are the odds of getting a copy of the actual adventure for DMs to run?
DM
No idea. It was Dave the Game (of www.criticalhits.com) that managed to grab the sheets, scan them and post them.
I will poke the WotC guys when they get back whether or not the adventure will be released.
Ooooo - Arena Fighter - new Fighter build with Improvised Weapon as a BA. Niiiice. Looks like all improvised weapons do the same damage with this, depending on whether it's one-handed or two-handed. I'm guessing Dark Sun uses the inherent bonus mechanic so like of a magic improvised item isn't necessary.
I noticed that. We're getting TWO new fighter builds the same year! Exciting!
This is probably why only Brawling Fighters made it to MP2 – they knew a sixth fighter build was on it's way.
Also, the Arena Fighter seems to harken to a lot of the material from the We Who Are About To Die… article on Gladiators. Choosing stuff from that article, if you decide to go the Gladiator Theme as well, is probably a really fun, thematic choice.
It's not that Mul's get a special "Theme" attack like Half-Elves get a Dilettante; it's that EVERYBODY gets an encounter attack associated with their theme, whether it be Gladiator, Veiled Alliance, Templar, Elemental Priest, or Wilder.
I really like that, because that one attack added in acts as a solidifier as you as a part of that theme.
By that right, I'm thinking that while Sorcerer-King Warlocks may be the optimal choice for Templars (people who draw their power from the Sorcerer-Kings), you'd find Templars of all classes (who use implements, at least).
I'm also thinking that these Theme Encounter Attacks probably scale, if there aren't more of them at higher levels.
Is anyone else thoroughly disappointed with the release date?
What's the point announcing stuff like this almost a year before release? Having to wait until August put a serious damper on my enthusiasm the announcement generated.
Yeah I know the setting requires a ton of work to come out as perfect, but still...
Thanks for the info.
Is anyone else thoroughly disappointed with the release date?
What's the point announcing stuff like this almost a year before release? Having to wait until August put a serious damper on my enthusiasm the announcement generated.
Yeah I know the setting requires a ton of work to come out as perfect, but still...
I've been pumped ever since hearing the news last summer. And this has made me even more excited.
Is it me, or does the Mul barbarian also have an extra healing surge?
You're right. And while the Thri-kreen's defences are all messed up, and thus these stats should be taken with a grain of salt (the Thri-kreen's will should be 16, but instead it's 10; it's Fort and AC are both too high as well, but that could be a racial feature or an alternate class feature of the Animist Shaman); the Mul seems to have a bonus healing surge. Is this a racial feature? It might be, considering the lack of racial features apparent.
Ritter missed that Thri-kreen get two languages:
Common, Thri-kreen
Also, Mul seem very off-kilter. Here's what I worked out, but it doesn't seem to make much sense. Seems that they're overcompensating for something…
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution
+2 Endurance
6 Squares
NOrmal
Common, Dwarven
Tireless: As long as you slpet at least 6 hours in the last 72 hours, you gain full benefit from an extended rest.
No Racial Encounter.
Correct me if I read this wrong, but Tireless seems to be that if you slept, then you can use your daily powers THREE TIMES before the next extended rest. That's crazy. Of course, if you chose to "use your extended rest" before you used all your dailies, it would use up the remaining dailies for that slot. But essentially, dailies become almost encounter powers. That's CRAZY. Please let me be wrong.
According to twitter feeds from DDXP Dark Sun seminar:
Mull:
+2 CON; choice of +2 STR or +2 WIS.
Edge against condition/status stuff for his racial ability.
So ... you never actually understood Dark Sun in the first place then?
Apparently not.
people in power are allowed to be hypocrites, because they have power.
Indeed. Trust me when I say I know all about templars, hypocricy and their abuses of power. But there are two laws even they don't break:
1) Never commit treason.
2) Don't be a defiler or preserver.
A templar breaking either of those rules should be extroadinary, rather than commonplace.
they protect you from things that make them look like saints.
The worst thing in all of Athas is a defiler. Most people would rather face mekillots or silt horrors then be in the same room as a defiler. The scariest thing on Athas is a defiler. The fact that it has many towns and Merchant House compounds which exist independent of the sorcerer-king led city-states only goes to show that the sorcerer-kings aren't necessary for protection. Given the choice, almost all people would face the dangers of the desert then live in a city-state led by defilers.
The Thri-Kreen could also be dex/wis looking at those scores.
They are.
The worst thing in all of Athas is a defiler. Most people would rather face mekillots or silt horrors then be in the same room as a defiler. The scariest thing on Athas is a defiler. The fact that it has many towns and Merchant House compounds which exist independent of the sorcerer-king led city-states only goes to show that the sorcerer-kings aren't necessary for protection. Given the choice, almost all people would face the dangers of the desert then live in a city-state led by defilers.
Gonna have to disagree there. One of the reasons for the City States was to "protect" people from the Dragon. It's all a sham of course, but that's what the citizenry believe. And the average person on the street does not know that the Dragon was a former Sorcerer-King.
Sides, if you'd read the Templar's character sheet, it explicitly mentions in her background that she has to keep her magic secret outside of her home city state. But at home, she is the Law. Well, part of it.
Hopefully, there will be something to defiling rituals, which is all there really needs to be in the first place, and we can ignore that silly, stupid option.
I for one have no problem with warlocks being templars. It's a fairly efficient way of shunting them into the system, particularly if you don't use divine classes (who have way too many radiant powers to fit with either templars or elemental priests - it would have taken a fair bit of work to convert them). The sorcerer kings have always kept pet defilers - now they just happen to be the same as templars. Needless to say, you could always just make a magic-less templar with a fighter or rogue (or for gulg, a ranger). Or that newfangled warlord that apparently sucks.
And the sorcerer kings did not create the city states. Those existed in the Blue Age. They were spoils of war.
Defiling rules are TERRIBLE. I thought they were supposed to be doing smarter gaming this edition? How better to make the other players at the table mad than by dropping them a quarter of their hitpoints just so you get to re-roll an attack roll? That's just plain stupid design right there.
Hopefully, there will be something to defiling rituals, which is all there really needs to be in the first place, and we can ignore that silly, stupid option.
I for one have no problem with warlocks being templars. It's a fairly efficient way of shunting them into the system, particularly if you don't use divine classes (who have way too many radiant powers to fit with either templars or elemental priests - it would have taken a fair bit of work to convert them). The sorcerer kings have always kept pet defilers - now they just happen to be the same as templars. Needless to say, you could always just make a magic-less templar with a fighter or rogue (or for gulg, a ranger). Or that newfangled warlord that apparently sucks.
And the sorcerer kings did not create the city states. Those existed in the Blue Age. They were spoils of war.
The Warlord is amazing, what are you talking about?
So ... you never actually understood Dark Sun in the first place then?
Apparently not.people in power are allowed to be hypocrites, because they have power.
Indeed. Trust me when I say I know all about templars, hypocricy and their abuses of power. But there are two laws even they don't break:
1) Never commit treason.
2) Don't be a defiler or preserver.
A templar breaking either of those rules should be extroadinary, rather than commonplace.they protect you from things that make them look like saints.
The worst thing in all of Athas is a defiler. Most people would rather face mekillots or silt horrors then be in the same room as a defiler. The scariest thing on Athas is a defiler. The fact that it has many towns and Merchant House compounds which exist independent of the sorcerer-king led city-states only goes to show that the sorcerer-kings aren't necessary for protection. Given the choice, almost all people would face the dangers of the desert then live in a city-state led by defilers.
Defiliers are shunned and hunted down because the Dragon Kings demand it. They also ban Preservation magic, reading and writing, and Templars have the right to tell you to do whatever they want and set up shop in your home and if you complain, they can imprison or kill you.
Some people do live outside the city-states in the brutal desert where it's all survival of the fittest, attacks from Thri-Kreen and Gith, and invasion by larger the city-states. There are those who do not and remain living in a society ruled by oppressive and cruel leaders with hypocritical laws in what passes for "civilization".
Those are your options. None of them are very good.
That's all within the style of Dark Sun.
Mull:
+2 CON; choice of +2 STR or +2 WIS.
That sounds like an absolutely horrendous idea, and I'm going to assume that it was made up by somebody who had absolutely no idea what they were talking about.
What was that line? "Please, my lord! We are being overwhelmed! Grant me Invincible Armor and Earthquake!"
But ya, Templar could just be a choice like Preserver or Defiler.
Mull:
+2 CON; choice of +2 STR or +2 WIS.
That sounds like an absolutely horrendous idea, and I'm going to assume that it was made up by somebody who had absolutely no idea what they were talking about.
Changeling has a similar +2Chr; +2 Dex or Int so it is not new to the system. Out of intrest why would you say it is an horrendous idea?
Changeling has a similar +2Chr; +2 Dex or Int so it is not new to the system. Out of intrest why would you say it is an horrendous idea?
1) Changelings are defined by their versatility. A choice of racial ability score bonus fits their fluff. That's not the case with Mul.
2) Int and Dex both add to the same NAD, so picking one over the other makes no difference to defences. Str adds to the same NAD as Con, while Wis does not. A Mul who picked Str/Con has -1 NAD compared to one who picked Wis/Con.
The Warlord is amazing, what are you talking about?
Never actually played with one, actually, just going off the whining on the forums.
seriously, though, why does defiling only effect allies and give nothing but a re-roll?! And 25% of hitpoints! that's the stupidest thing I ever heard!
!!!
Okay, I'm done now.
The Warlord is amazing, what are you talking about?
Never actually played with one, actually, just going off the whining on the forums.
seriously, though, why does defiling only effect allies and give nothing but a re-roll?! And 25% of hitpoints! that's the stupidest thing I ever heard!
!!!
Okay, I'm done now.
Good thing that its wrong, then. Arcane Defiling does 1/2 of a healing surge in damage to allies when used.
Never actually played with one, actually, just going off the whining on the forums.
seriously, though, why does defiling only effect allies and give nothing but a re-roll?! And 25% of hitpoints! that's the stupidest thing I ever heard!
First of all, a reroll is nothing to scoff at. You get to reroll EITHER an attack roll or damage roll. The latter isn't as important as the former most of the time, but if it's on, say, a huge AoE power (which uses one damage roll for all targets hit), especially one with multiple damage dice, and you roll very low, it can make a huge difference. Rerolling a to-hit roll that failed to connect, on the other hand, is spectacularly good.
Second, it is NOT 25% of their hit points, it is less than or equal to 12.5%. It is HALF a healing surge value, not a healing surge value.
Third, while thematically it should indeed drain life from your enemies, mechanically that is ridiculous. On a significant number of attacks each encounter you get to nail every enemy (and ally) within 20 squares for 12.5% of their total hit points without a roll? Damn, that's nuts.
HOWEVER, that being said, I would very much have liked it if there were some mechanical penalty to the enemies. I would have greatly preferred something like a global -1 to attack rolls for all other creatures within 20 squares at the time defiling is used, until the end of the encounter. Make it risky for enemy and ally alike. Sacrificing long term effectiveness and potentially drawing a combat out for an extended period of time (which means more resources used up) in exchange for potential short term gain seems utterly thematic for defiling.
I do understand why WotC went the route they did, however.
I would presume they made defiling work like that to discourage PCs from doing it. Kind of like the Dark Pact warlock powers that hurt an ally to help you ... nobody in their right mind takes them.
I would. Then again, I have no problem casting fireball even when it hits more allies than enemies.
Oh the fun I shall have as a defiler!
Still pretty steep cost. I think everybody should have been slowed or weakened for a roundor two, personally. The old system had no HP cost.
Changeling has a similar +2Chr; +2 Dex or Int so it is not new to the system. Out of intrest why would you say it is an horrendous idea?
1) Changelings are defined by their versatility. A choice of racial ability score bonus fits their fluff. That's not the case with Mul.
2) Int and Dex both add to the same NAD, so picking one over the other makes no difference to defences. Str adds to the same NAD as Con, while Wis does not. A Mul who picked Str/Con has -1 NAD compared to one who picked Wis/Con.
I think they shouldn't have done it this way, but if they really went this route, then I hope that they give Str/Con Mul's a +1 racial bonus to Will Defence to try to balance it a little bit. It's not perfect, but it helps.
Remember, these character sheets have their defences all wacky, so I'm not going to trust them. The Thri-kreen should have 16 Will, but instead has 10. So we'll have to wait a bit for the rest, yeah?
First, we don't know any of the fluff behind the defiler, all we know is combat relevant game card facts. For all we know, all the plant life DOES die around the defiler, AND you hurt your allies... That at least seems thematically reconcilable.
Second, as for defiling templars, I don't think a warlock with a sorcerer king pact is by default a defiler or preserver. Defilers and preservers potentially have more in common with one another than they do with SK pact warlock, who doesn't have to draw energy necessarily from the land as the preserver and the defiler do. When I call on Hamanu to blast your ass to the Ringing Mountains, i don't have to be making any moral commitment for or against the land or incur the wrath of the veiled alliance for any reason other than being a SK's henchman.
Just saying, we don't know enough just yet
Equipment
Obsidian daggers (2), CRYSTAL ORB (SUPERIOR IMPLEMENT), cloth armor, cloth wraps (spellbook)
So, it would appear that the Crystal Orb, as a superior implement, grants +1 to hit and +2 to damage. Very nice. With that and Implement Expertise (Orb) it would explain his +7 to hit and +7 to damage rolls.
Cannot wait for PHB3. Come on, superior implements!
Changeling has a similar +2Chr; +2 Dex or Int so it is not new to the system. Out of intrest why would you say it is an horrendous idea?
1) Changelings are defined by their versatility. A choice of racial ability score bonus fits their fluff. That's not the case with Mul.
2) Int and Dex both add to the same NAD, so picking one over the other makes no difference to defences. Str adds to the same NAD as Con, while Wis does not. A Mul who picked Str/Con has -1 NAD compared to one who picked Wis/Con.
^^^ What he said. ^^^
Eldritch Blast -- +6 vs. Reflex, 1d10+5 damage (Exactly what it should be for a 20 Cha lock with Implement Expertise)
Spiteful Glamer -- +7 vs. Will, 1d8+5 Psychic damage (Why an extra +1 to hit? Is it tied to attacking the will defense? Or to doing psychic damage?)
Hand of Blight -- +6 vs. Fortitude, 1d8+7 Necrotic damage (Only a +6 again, but now with +2 damage? Tied to necrotic damage, maybe?)
Darkworm Feast -- +7 vs. Will, 2d6+7 Necrotic damage (Again another +1 to hit, but again with a +2 to damage.)
My guess: the Deathbone Rod gives you a +1 to attacks against will and a +2 bonus to necrotic damage rolls. All of the Wizard's attacks are vs. will and dealing psychic damage, so likely the Crystal Orb gives you a +1 to attacks against will and +2 bonus to psychic damage rolls.
Even cooler than my initial assumption. I can't wait til superior implements!
I wonder if the suffix is unique to each implement, or if you can have Crystal Rods and Deathbone Orbs...
By looking at the sheet, I would say that the Mul gains a dual-heritage bonus, like the Half-Elf (allowing for the extra 2 damage from Dwarven weapon training), and possibly proficiency in certain weapons, (military axe/hammer?). This makes them more like dwarves, as their encounter power is not a racial exclusive, but they gain extra proficiencies.
Mul's get 6 days to every 3 for other players. You only need to wait 12 hours to take an extended rest, since muls don't actually have to sleep for any amount of time to benefit. So the Mul's "Work day" will be:
Wake up
Adventure 12 hours
Extended Rest: ----
Adventure 12 hours
Extended Rest: ----
Adventure 12 hours
Extended Rest: ----
Adventure 12 hours
Extended Rest: ----
Adventure 12 hours
Extended Rest: ----
Adventure 12 hours
Extended Rest: 6 hours
Hopefully they at least have to take a short rest to get their extended rest benefit, otherwise mid-encounter when nearly dead:
Mul: "Has it been 12 hours since we took an extended rest?"
DM: "Yeah, why?"
Mul: "Because I'm now at full health, and have all my dailies back!"
DM: "Wha?!"
Dwarf: "Yah but you can't second wind as a minor action... *sulks*"
The real question here, is when do they benefit from an extended rest? I hope they have greater detail on this otherwise:
Mul's get 6 days to every 3 for other players. You only need to wait 12 hours to take an extended rest, since muls don't actually have to sleep for any amount of time to benefit. So the Mul's "Work day" will be:
Wake up
Adventure 12 hours
Extended Rest: ----
Adventure 12 hours
Extended Rest: ----
Adventure 12 hours
Extended Rest: ----
Adventure 12 hours
Extended Rest: ----
Adventure 12 hours
Extended Rest: ----
Adventure 12 hours
Extended Rest: 6 hours
Hopefully they at least have to take a short rest to get their extended rest benefit, otherwise mid-encounter when nearly dead:
Mul: "Has it been 12 hours since we took an extended rest?"
DM: "Yeah, why?"
Mul: "Because I'm now at full health, and have all my dailies back!"
DM: "Wha?!"
Dwarf: "Yah but you can't second wind as a minor action... *sulks*"
I doubt that it works that way. I suspect that it simply allows you to change the rule under sleeping and waking up (phb 263) to 72 hours instead of the listed 24. You still need to take 6 hours to complete an extended rest.
Tireless: As long as you slept at least 6 hours in the last 72 hours, you gain full benefit from an extended rest.
So you can benefit from an extended rest without actually resting, as long as some time in the last 3 days you've had 6 hours of sleep. Otherwise its pretty worthless, since the rules themselves give no penalties for staying awake for long periods of time, other than you don't recharge dailies, surges, etc... So if Mul's still need 6 hours to complete an extended rest, then they've been given nothing but fluff here.
I'm pretty sure I'm right on the general concept of how it works, I just hope the long description of the ability includes enough, so that it can't be abused to the point that mul's get double daily power uses/surges compared to everyone else. Just adding: They can only benefit from an extended rest every 16 hours during a short rest, instead of every 12 hours; would keep it balanced.
The short on the character sheet is:
Tireless: As long as you slept at least 6 hours in the last 72 hours, you gain full benefit from an extended rest.
So you can benefit from an extended rest without actually resting, as long as some time in the last 3 days you've had 6 hours of sleep. Otherwise its pretty worthless, since the rules themselves give no penalties for staying awake for long periods of time, other than you don't recharge dailies, surges, etc... So if Mul's still need 6 hours to complete an extended rest, then they've been given nothing but fluff here.
I'm pretty sure I'm right on the general concept of how it works, I just hope the long description of the ability includes enough, so that it can't be abused to the point that mul's get double daily power uses/surges compared to everyone else. Just adding: They can only benefit from an extended rest every 16 hours during a short rest, instead of every 12 hours; would keep it balanced.
It is the same principle as the Warforged ability Unsleeping Watcher. "You do not sleep and instead enter a state of inactivity for 4 hours to gain the benefits of an extended rest."
Tireless: "As long as you slept at least 6 hours in the last 72 hours, you gain full benefit from an extended rest."
You still need to take an extended rest for the abilities to trigger. It still requires you to take the extended rest to gain the benefits from it.
The way you're reading it is, the way all standard races handle it. "You need 6 hours to gain full benefit from an extended rest." There are no rules saying that you need to have slept 24 hours prior to your last 6 hour sleep to gain the benefit of an extended rest. So ANY race can stay up for 72 hours, then sleep 6 hours and count as having taken an extended rest at the end.
Correct, a warforged must be inactive for 4 hours to gain the benefits. A Mul had to have slept 6 hours, sometime in the last 3 days to gain the benefit. The warforged is worded so that: "inactive for 4 hours"=extended rest. The mul is worded such that, "slept 6 hours yesterday"=extended rest, as well as "slept 6 hours 2 days ago"=extended rest as well as "slept 6 hours a day and a half ago"=extended rest. They can trigger their extended rest, any time up to 72 hours after they slept, which means using only the 12 hour rule for extended rests, they can trigger it 5 times over the course of their 72 hours.
The way you're reading it is, the way all standard races handle it. "You need 6 hours to gain full benefit from an extended rest." There are no rules saying that you need to have slept 24 hours prior to your last 6 hour sleep to gain the benefit of an extended rest. So ANY race can stay up for 72 hours, then sleep 6 hours and count as having taken an extended rest at the end.
While any race can stay up for 72 hours then sleep 6 and gain the benefits of an extended rest, only the Mul can go 18 hours take an extended rest(6 hours) with out sleeping, go another 18 hours before taking another extended rest(6 hours) without sleeping, and finally going 18 hours before taking a final extended rest(6 hours) without sleeping. Is it just fluff? Yes. Is the warforged ability just fluff? Yes.
To be slightly more specific, here are some rule excerts from the PHB.
EXTENDED REST
Duration: An extended rest is at least 6 hours long.
Sleeping and Waking Up
You need at least 6 hours of sleep every day to keep functioning at your best. If, at the end of an extended rest, you haven’t slept at least 6 hours in the last 24, you gain no benefit from that extended rest.
The Mul rule is clearly only referring to the second of these rules. There is nothing in the Mul text to imply that it relates to the duration of the extended rest at all. It only modifies the sleeping rule, not the extended rest duration rule.
Note: Sorry for the weird formatting at the bottom. No option I try seems to do anything to it.
It fixes most of the issue, they can only do it every 18 hours, instead of every 12. But without any requirements for the rest they can still fight and do everything else during their "extended rest". So they'll still need a restriction as to when they can claim their extended rest is over. While most sleep, and warforged are inactive for 4 hours Muls can be doing anything. Note that Eladrin only need 4 hours for the 6 hour benefit... I think though that leads further from your claim though. Will have to wait and see. However it is written it'll be fine for my group, we don't have any cheesy players. I just bring this up as a possibility of needing careful writing (or errata).
(excuse the short writing, i'm doing this from my phone because my internet is out)
It fixes most of the issue, they can only do it every 18 hours, instead of every 12. But without any requirements for the rest they can still fight and do everything else during their "extended rest". So they'll still need a restriction as to when they can claim their extended rest is over. While most sleep, and warforged are inactive for 4 hours Muls can be doing anything. Note that Eladrin only need 4 hours for the 6 hour benefit... I think though that leads further from your claim though. Will have to wait and see. However it is written it'll be fine for my group, we don't have any cheesy players. I just bring this up as a possibility of needing careful writing (or errata).
(excuse the short writing, i'm doing this from my phone because my internet is out)
The Muls can't fight while they are doing their extended rest due to this portion of an extended rest:
No Strenuous Activity:
You normally sleep during an extended rest, though you don’t have to. You can engage in light activity that doesn’t require much exertion.
As it currently stands, a human could gain the benefits of an extended rest one day, sleep six hours into the next day, adventure for six hours, rest for six hours without sleeping(gain the benefits from an extended rest), and then adventure some more. Muls work the same way just with less of a need to sleep.
Ok, now that this is all clarified (extended rests are obviously much more complicated then I originally thought).
The basic idea is that everyone follows the exact same "Extended Rest" rules.
Extended Rest
Duration: An extended rest is at least 6 hours long.
Once per Day: After you finish an extended rest, you have to wait 12 hours before you can begin another one.
No Strenuous Activity: You normally sleep during an extended rest, though you don’t have to. You can engage in light activity that doesn’t require much exertion.
Interruptions: If anything interrupts your extended rest, such as an attack, add the time spent dealing with the interruption to the total time you need to spend in the extended rest.
The only thing that can be altered are the rules for sleeping and waking up.
Sleeping and Waking Up
You need at least 6 hours of sleep every day to keep functioning at your best. If, at the end of an extended rest, you haven’t slept at least 6 hours in the last 24, you gain no benefit from that extended rest.
Makes all of these abilities a lot less useful, but prevents them from becoming ridiculously powerful as I thought might be a possibility.
Most people treat their sleeping as their extended rest, but this is not required. You could sleep without getting an extended rest, and then if you could talk your group into letting you take a 6 hour break during the day (not necessarily sleeping, but personally a 6 hour nap mid work day sounds good to me usually...), get your extended rest then.
Case closed, thanks Ranadiel
...it makes sense for Thri-Kreen to have a racial bonus to AC -- call it Chitinous Armor, or something to that effect... I think it'd be really cool to have a race with a racial bonus to AC.
That doesn't make sense, and if the developers have any concept of consistency, then it's never going to happen. The designers have explicitly stated before that they thought that a racial bonus to AC would be too powerful, so even if they changed their mind, it would make zero sense to go back on that now, because then you'd end up with a race that has a little bit of thick skin having an AC bonus while a race that's made of metal and stone doesn't.
It's exactly as likely that they get a racial +1 AC as that they get a racial -6 Will. Seriously, they make exactly as much sense. Much more likely and logical is that they just messed up. Also possible, maybe this new Shaman build gets to add CON to AC in place of DEX.
...it makes sense for Thri-Kreen to have a racial bonus to AC -- call it Chitinous Armor, or something to that effect... I think it'd be really cool to have a race with a racial bonus to AC.
That doesn't make sense, and if the developers have any concept of consistency, then it's never going to happen. The designers have explicitly stated before that they thought that a racial bonus to AC would be too powerful, so even if they changed their mind, it would make zero sense to go back on that now, because then you'd end up with a race that has a little bit of thick skin having an AC bonus while a race that's made of metal and stone doesn't.
It's exactly as likely that they get a racial +1 AC as that they get a racial -6 Will. Seriously, they make exactly as much sense. Much more likely and logical is that they just messed up. Also possible, maybe this new Shaman build gets to add CON to AC in place of DEX.
That's a strong position on developer intent you have there. Have any sources? Otherwise you're just spouting hate.
The Shaman build feature would make sense, though.
That's a strong position on developer intent you have there. Have any sources?
"Playing Warforged" Article, Dragon #364, page 33, "Designing the Warforged" Sidebar
Though, "too powerful" may not be quite as accurate as "too inappropriate". Either way...
That's a strong position on developer intent you have there. Have any sources?
"Playing Warforged" Article, Dragon #364, page 33, "Designing the Warforged" Sidebar
Though, "too powerful" may not be quite as accurate as "too inappropriate". Either way...
Well, there's three big points against that, though:
First, the article in question was released nearly 2 years ago. A lot of things change in 2 years.
Second, the article in question is referring to the 3e/3.5e "natural armor" bonus, not the idea of an racial bonus to AC. Natural Armor in 3.5e was both overly complicated, overly confusing, and had some negative effects such as nearly invalidating heavy armor if you've got a natural AC (since armor bonuses replaced natural armor bonuses, upgrading from a +2 to a +6 isn't nearly as appealing as upgrading from a +0 to a +6). Read this paragraph again, the one you're referring to:
For instance, later in the design process of 4th Edition, we discovered that racial AC bonuses, even if small, conflict with armor and treasure. It’s better for the game if you, the player, can use the nifty armor you buy or find. If your race’s natural armor doesn’t stack with that armor, what’s the point of having it? So, with the assumption that any plating a warforged has is like skin to a human, it’s easy to come to the place warforged are at now.
A literal racial bonus to AC like I'm suggesting, just like any other race's racial bonuses to NADs, would stack with armor perfectly fine. This paragraph is very obviously referring to 3.5e's concept of Natural Armor, something that yeah wouldn't work well at all in 4e and I agree should be kept away.
Thirdly, there is admittedly the issue of balance. A racial bonus to AC would be really, really good. But at the same time, who would benefit the most from it? Defenders would. But Thri-Kreen, with their stat spread and racial bonuses wouldn't make very good defenders. They'd make fair fighters, true, but they'd be poor paladins, wardens, swordmages and battleminds just due to total lack of synergy with them. A racial bonus to AC wouldn't change any of that, especially if it were contingent on wearing light armor. It'd make them good fighters, but I'd still have a hard time calling it overpowered because I still think I'd rather have a strength bonus on a fighter than a racial multi-mark and an AC bonus.
Anyways, all things said and done I agree it could very well be a math mistake given how many of them are present in these character sheets, and it could also be a result of the new shaman build giving Con to AC instead of Dex, but I just don't want to count out Thri-Kreen having a racial bonus to AC. It's a long shot, but I think it'd be really cool, and it would definitely help this race stay relevant despite how it's practically guaranteed to get no feat support outside of the book it's released in. (Just look at how much feat support Changelings and Kalashtar have.)
It's just a thought, really.
....it's practically guaranteed to get no feat support outside of the book it's released in. (Just look at how much feat support Changelings and Kalashtar have.)
As a counterpoint, genasi and drow have gotten a fair bit of feat support outside of Forgotten Realms. So we can hope thri-kreen go that route. Honestly, I hope changelings and kalashtar begin to go that way too.
EDIT: This was longer before, but it sounded meaner than I intended for it to, so I decided that it wasn't worth it.