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Player books sell well

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Haldrik
Mar 04, 2009 14:13:44 Apparantly, books that have crunch that the players need sell well. Books with crunch for monsters sell less well. Flavor only sells if crunch backs it up.

In my case, whether or not I spend money is all about the players.

[INDENT]For me, the Players Handbooks are must-haves (so far, PH1 and PH2). These give players the resources and fun choices to play. Even as a DM, these books are all I really need to create adventures.

Also because of the players, the Power books are must-haves. Regarding Martial Power, as player, I rarely play Martial characters myself, so this book is almost useless. But as DM, this book becomes a must-have because of the many players who enjoy such. I highly anticipate Arcane Power, Psi Power, Divine Power, etc. All of these are must-haves.

Everything else is luxury.

The Monster Manual 1 is useful.

The Dungeon Master Guide is (surprisingly) useful to understand the big picture of why 4e crunch is the way it is, and how to use it. The DMG2 will probably be useful if it addresses Noncombat.

For me, the Forgotten Realms Players Guide is only useful because of its player-centric info, namely Drow, Genasi, and Swordmage stats.

I tend to author my own campaign settings, so Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide is less useful to me. Even tho I like to mix-and-match, FRCG lacks player-centric crunch to import into my campaign.

I love the flavors of the new cosmology, but Manual of the Planes doesnt have enough player-centric info for me to really consider the book 'useful'. Nevertheless in this specific case, I love the elegant organization of the planes so much, Im glad to have this book.

Many others consider the Adventurer Vault books must-haves ... precisely because they are pure player-centric crunch. But for me its only partially useful because of balance concerns. If future errata nerfs the broken items and buffs the blah items, thus making the whole book a high-quality standard, then this future AV update will become a must-have. Generally, the AVs must ensure balance to become must-haves.

Draconomicon has ok monster crunch, but it isnt player-centric. As is, I would only buy it if I planned to make dragons a central motiff of my campaign. But if the book included more crunch that players felt they 'needed', Id get it for their sakes. As DM, I can have monsters use the player-centric stuff too.

Open Graves is less useful. My campaigns are unlikely to require that much info about undead monsters. Whatever I might need, if any, I can make up myself.[/INDENT]

Player crunch? Heres my money. Monster crunch? It depends. Setting flavor? Meh.

What does it take for you to part with your money?
#2
Lone_Wolf_02
Mar 04, 2009 14:40:13 My preferences tend towards player crunch, followed by setting flavor, and then monster crunch is more or less an afterthought for me. If I ever manage to get things in my life to a point where I can regularly play D&D with a group of friends, and if I end up in the position of DM, perhaps my opinions on monster crunch will change, but for now, I'm just not really interested in books that focus solely on monsters without any tidbits for players.

Case in point would be Draconomicon and Open Grave. Back in the 3.5 days, I did pick up both Draconomicon and Libris Mortis, partly because I was intrigued by the sections detailing physiology and habits of the subject matter, but more because the books also included options for players centering around either fighting against or being empowered by dragons/undead. But since both the 4th Edition equivalents lack these options, I haven't felt compelled to pick them up.

I realize both dragon and undead-themed powers and paragon paths have showed up in Dragon and Dungeon magazines, but my point is that if these had been included in Draconomicon and Open Grave, I would have been more inclined towards the purchase of those volumes. As it is, I get the information I want (the player crunch) from my DDI subscription, so there's no real need for me to purchase those two volumes.

Conversely, I have picked up Manual of the Planes, a book I originally wasn't too interested in, after playing around with the Character Builder and discovering that there was player-related material contained within. I realize that I technically already had access to the material via the Compendium and Character Builder, but I prefer to have a hard copy of stuff like that, if for no other reason than I might want to review something and might not have ready access to my computer.

So Player's Handbooks? Yes. Power source splatbooks? Yes. Setting player's guides? Yes. Campaign setting books? Yes, but not a high priority. Books with monster stats? No thanks, maybe later.
#3
archangel_james
Mar 05, 2009 10:19:37 I'm a DM, so obviously I prefer DM books. Monster books are always immediate purchases, no matter what; I can't get enough monsters. Other DM books are case by case, depending on usefulness and other factors. For example, I wasn't going to get Open Grave, but when I opened it up and looked through it, I couldn't resist buying it.

Players books are less important for me. I'll be buying PHB2, but that's the first one so far. I'm intentionally skipping the Power books until I'm a player in a game and use that power source (which may not be for a long time). I also never buy campaign setting books.
#4
mplindustries
Mar 05, 2009 10:50:06 Flavor is worthless to me because I know how to tell a story already. It takes no effort to tell a story. Its all about reading the players anyway.

Now, I also know how to balance a system, but honestly, it takes so long and requires so much work, its worth paying to have someone else do it.
#5
tyrandor
Mar 05, 2009 13:14:17 Monster stats book are important for me. I hate creating my own monsters, seem everytime I do so, they're either wimps or overpowered as hell. With published monsters, if they end up being to much or to weak, at least it isn't 'my fault' for screwing up.

I wasn't that interested in Open Grave, until I opened it and saw almost half the book is monster stat blocks. That made it an auto-buy.

The only book I haven't bought so far as the FR DM book and pre-made adventures... I don't foresee myself buying any premade adventure ever.
#6
Alter_Boy
Mar 05, 2009 18:14:43 Books that fill in the lighter areas of the Core Three are important. AV and MP help give me a wider range of player options. MotP helps broaden the PoL campaign world and better explain the backgrounds for monsters. Dungeon Delve and KotS showcase possible directions for 4ed encounters.
#7
Haldrik
Mar 06, 2009 15:53:19 The Marriage of Flavor and Crunch

Just now I read the PH2 Excerpt on 'Backgrounds'.

Backgrounds are part of the 'flavor' of an individual character. The PH2 organizes a background into various 'elements', such as 'Society' (Noble, Poor, etc), 'Occupation' (Scholar, Military, etc), 'Geography' (Urban, &c), 'Racial', 'Birth', etc.

This is fluff, but also the PH2 empowers the player to actualize the chosen flavor via crunch.

Regardless of how many background elements you use, when you create a character you can (with your DM’s consent) select one of the following background benefits:

Gain a +2 bonus to checks with a skill associated with your background.
Add a skill associated with your background to your class’s skills list before you choose your trained skills.
Choose one language connected to your background. You can speak, read, and write that language fluently.
If you are using a campaign setting that offers regional benefits (such as the Forgotten Realms setting), gain a regional benefit.

This approach to flavor and crunch is ideal. The crunch is highly open-ended and gives the roleplayer a wide number of choices to express a certain flavor in a consequential way during gameplay. (Conversely, it encourages optimizers to explain their eclection of abilities in a meaningful way as part of the ongoing adventure story.)

I love it!
#8
JohnLynch
Mar 06, 2009 17:01:07 For every DM there are 4-6 players. Of course player books sell better.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Haldrik Mar 04, 2009 14:13:44	Apparantly, books that have crunch that the players need sell well. Books with crunch for monsters sell less well. Flavor only sells if crunch backs it up. In my case, whether or not I spend money is all about the players. [INDENT]For me, the Players Handbooks are must-haves (so far, PH1 and PH2). These give players the resources and fun choices to play. Even as a DM, these books are all I really need to create adventures. Also because of the players, the Power books are must-haves. Regarding Martial Power, as player, I rarely play Martial characters myself, so this book is almost useless. But as DM, this book becomes a must-have because of the many players who enjoy such. I highly anticipate Arcane Power, Psi Power, Divine Power, etc. All of these are must-haves. Everything else is luxury. The Monster Manual 1 is useful. The Dungeon Master Guide is (surprisingly) useful to understand the big picture of why 4e crunch is the way it is, and how to use it. The DMG2 will probably be useful if it addresses Noncombat. For me, the Forgotten Realms Players Guide is only useful because of its player-centric info, namely Drow, Genasi, and Swordmage stats. I tend to author my own campaign settings, so Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide is less useful to me. Even tho I like to mix-and-match, FRCG lacks player-centric crunch to import into my campaign. I love the flavors of the new cosmology, but Manual of the Planes doesnt have enough player-centric info for me to really consider the book 'useful'. Nevertheless in this specific case, I love the elegant organization of the planes so much, Im glad to have this book. Many others consider the Adventurer Vault books must-haves ... precisely because they are pure player-centric crunch. But for me its only partially useful because of balance concerns. If future errata nerfs the broken items and buffs the blah items, thus making the whole book a high-quality standard, then this future AV update will become a must-have. Generally, the AVs must ensure balance to become must-haves. Draconomicon has ok monster crunch, but it isnt player-centric. As is, I would only buy it if I planned to make dragons a central motiff of my campaign. But if the book included more crunch that players felt they 'needed', Id get it for their sakes. As DM, I can have monsters use the player-centric stuff too. Open Graves is less useful. My campaigns are unlikely to require that much info about undead monsters. Whatever I might need, if any, I can make up myself.[/INDENT] Player crunch? Heres my money. Monster crunch? It depends. Setting flavor? Meh. What does it take for you to part with your money?
#2 Lone_Wolf_02 Mar 04, 2009 14:40:13	My preferences tend towards player crunch, followed by setting flavor, and then monster crunch is more or less an afterthought for me. If I ever manage to get things in my life to a point where I can regularly play D&D with a group of friends, and if I end up in the position of DM, perhaps my opinions on monster crunch will change, but for now, I'm just not really interested in books that focus solely on monsters without any tidbits for players. Case in point would be Draconomicon and Open Grave. Back in the 3.5 days, I did pick up both Draconomicon and Libris Mortis, partly because I was intrigued by the sections detailing physiology and habits of the subject matter, but more because the books also included options for players centering around either fighting against or being empowered by dragons/undead. But since both the 4th Edition equivalents lack these options, I haven't felt compelled to pick them up. I realize both dragon and undead-themed powers and paragon paths have showed up in Dragon and Dungeon magazines, but my point is that if these had been included in Draconomicon and Open Grave, I would have been more inclined towards the purchase of those volumes. As it is, I get the information I want (the player crunch) from my DDI subscription, so there's no real need for me to purchase those two volumes. Conversely, I have picked up Manual of the Planes, a book I originally wasn't too interested in, after playing around with the Character Builder and discovering that there was player-related material contained within. I realize that I technically already had access to the material via the Compendium and Character Builder, but I prefer to have a hard copy of stuff like that, if for no other reason than I might want to review something and might not have ready access to my computer. So Player's Handbooks? Yes. Power source splatbooks? Yes. Setting player's guides? Yes. Campaign setting books? Yes, but not a high priority. Books with monster stats? No thanks, maybe later.
#3 archangel_james Mar 05, 2009 10:19:37	I'm a DM, so obviously I prefer DM books. Monster books are always immediate purchases, no matter what; I can't get enough monsters. Other DM books are case by case, depending on usefulness and other factors. For example, I wasn't going to get Open Grave, but when I opened it up and looked through it, I couldn't resist buying it. Players books are less important for me. I'll be buying PHB2, but that's the first one so far. I'm intentionally skipping the Power books until I'm a player in a game and use that power source (which may not be for a long time). I also never buy campaign setting books.
#4 mplindustries Mar 05, 2009 10:50:06	Flavor is worthless to me because I know how to tell a story already. It takes no effort to tell a story. Its all about reading the players anyway. Now, I also know how to balance a system, but honestly, it takes so long and requires so much work, its worth paying to have someone else do it.
#5 tyrandor Mar 05, 2009 13:14:17	Monster stats book are important for me. I hate creating my own monsters, seem everytime I do so, they're either wimps or overpowered as hell. With published monsters, if they end up being to much or to weak, at least it isn't 'my fault' for screwing up. I wasn't that interested in Open Grave, until I opened it and saw almost half the book is monster stat blocks. That made it an auto-buy. The only book I haven't bought so far as the FR DM book and pre-made adventures... I don't foresee myself buying any premade adventure ever.
#6 Alter_Boy Mar 05, 2009 18:14:43	Books that fill in the lighter areas of the Core Three are important. AV and MP help give me a wider range of player options. MotP helps broaden the PoL campaign world and better explain the backgrounds for monsters. Dungeon Delve and KotS showcase possible directions for 4ed encounters.
#7 Haldrik Mar 06, 2009 15:53:19	The Marriage of Flavor and Crunch Just now I read the PH2 Excerpt on 'Backgrounds'. Backgrounds are part of the 'flavor' of an individual character. The PH2 organizes a background into various 'elements', such as 'Society' (Noble, Poor, etc), 'Occupation' (Scholar, Military, etc), 'Geography' (Urban, &c), 'Racial', 'Birth', etc. This is fluff, but also the PH2 empowers the player to actualize the chosen flavor via crunch. Regardless of how many background elements you use, when you create a character you can (with your DM’s consent) select one of the following background benefits: Gain a +2 bonus to checks with a skill associated with your background. Add a skill associated with your background to your class’s skills list before you choose your trained skills. Choose one language connected to your background. You can speak, read, and write that language fluently. If you are using a campaign setting that offers regional benefits (such as the Forgotten Realms setting), gain a regional benefit. This approach to flavor and crunch is ideal. The crunch is highly open-ended and gives the roleplayer a wide number of choices to express a certain flavor in a consequential way during gameplay. (Conversely, it encourages optimizers to explain their eclection of abilities in a meaningful way as part of the ongoing adventure story.) I love it!
#8 JohnLynch Mar 06, 2009 17:01:07	For every DM there are 4-6 players. Of course player books sell better.