I suspect actually with the yearly corebooks it will cut down on the amount of books being made. You probably won't see Race of Stone, Destiny, etc. since that be for the PHBs.
As for rules, well with the Power-system the amount of rule alteration will be mostly kept to a minimum most likely. The biggest rule alteration in PHB2 was Racial Paragon Paths and Backgrounds (which was already out there in DDI) and in PHB3 it seem to be so far to by Hybrid-Multiclassing.
For Races, I say with keeping to the above with most of them being in Player's Handbook the more the merrier. Especially if we get more exotic and less traditional ones.
Most of my concerns with 3E -niggling details and penalties amongst a great many subsystems, overpowered magic options, alignment, favored classes, neutered martial characters, and contradictory adherence to some faux-realism- were present in the first PHB.
New books generally did nothing more than give me more options and ideas, and by the time Eberron, the PHB II, and Tome of Battle started coming out, were actively addressing many of my concerns and fixing them.
While you may have heard me mutter things about core Druids being able to do too much too well, or how the MM has like five or six Elf subraces that seem optimized for ever party role (while the other races get the shaft), I would have never suggested that D&D had too many classes or races for its own good.
Hopefully the class/racial feats in later power books will exclude races they've already covered, but that won't help Shadow/Ki/Psi Power when they're having to include stuff for 3 PHBs worth of races in the first release
Please keep your posts respectful of other members, even if they disagree with you.
As for the OP, there are always desires for more core classes. There was a large number of core classes in 3e, and a lot of folks created "core" classes rather than prestige classes, although to an extent, there were a great number of prestige classes.
Giving more options is not a bad thing and who knows, perhaps a new class might be your favorite.
How many PHBs do we actually need?? Also, how many core races do we actually need?? I see that the people that don't like 3.5 was do to the fact that it had to many rules, and to much stuff to keep up with. Well it looks like 4th edition might be doing the same thing, I could be wrong but thats just my opinion.
I would love a third PHB, I always love reading new content. You, however, don't need it. You won't need to buy it.
No, we don't need a PHBIII to play and enjoy D&D, but having one is just icing on the cake.
Maybe there will be a half-troll as a PC race in the PH3.
How many PHBs do we actually need?? Also, how many core races do we actually need?? I see that the people that don't like 3.5 was do to the fact that it had to many rules, and to much stuff to keep up with. Well it looks like 4th edition might be doing the same thing, I could be wrong but thats just my opinion.
To answer you question literally: Only one, the first one, is all you "need".
Subsequent ones have more options which isn't a bad thing to me at all. I love options that don't upset game balance... which since they aren't changing the core mechanics, simply using their own templates to create different things to use with the core mechanics, rules won't be a problem.
Really, you don't even 'need' the first three books. Just get a DDI subscription, if you're just a player anyway.
If this is a "I like more options but don't want to pay for them" kind of comment, then I will have to say you are out of luck.
Plenty of other things to play, if you've had your fill.
That aside, while I'm no fan of the installment system either, I can see at least half a dozen containing worthwhile material getting published. There's no reason why they'd have to keep following the same structure either. At some point existing power sources can be revisited, racial options can be explored further, alternate options can be presented for existing rules, etc.
complete warrior?
complete adventure?
complete diviner?
complete arcane?
complete mage?
complete champion?
races of the wild?
races of destiny?
races of stone?
races of eberron?
heroes of horror?
heroes of battle?
Libris Mortis?
Draconomicon?
Lords of Madness?
Magic of Incarnum?
Tome of Magic?
Book of nine swords?
Magic item compendium?
Spell compendium?
Rules Compendium?
unearthed acana?
i doubt it.
they are supplements. extras. not required purchases.
that has not changed for 4th ed. WotC will continue to make books and give us extra content if they can continue to make a profit by doing so. and guess what?
you still don't need to buy the new 4th ed books. WotC would like you to, but you are in no way required to do so.
...I see that the people that don't like 3.5 was do to the fact that it had to many rules, and to much stuff to keep up with. ...
It's not that 3.5 had too much content; it's that some of 3.5's basic core game mechanics were overly complicated. The grappling system and attack of opportunity system were both a little hard to follow, especially for new players. By contrast 4th edition simplified a bunch of the complicated rules and streamlined parts of the encounter design process for DMs.
I can't remember anybody complaining about either system having too much content, though. After all, generally speaking everybody likes seeing new races, classes, feats, powers, spells, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I like 3rd edition and I played it for a long time. I just like 4th edition's core game mechanics and layout more, especially as a DM tweaking encounters and adventures.
...you still don't need to buy the new 4th ed books. WotC would like you to, but you are in no way required to do so.
I also want to add to the above quote by pointing out that in 4th edition, if you subscribe to DDi, you have easy access to nearly all the rules from all the published books and magazines. So as a DM, rather than buying a bunch of supplement books, I just periodically subscribe to DDi and pick and choose what I want to use from them. To me that's a really handy feature when I'm putting things together.
How many PHBs do we actually need?? Also, how many core races do we actually need?? I see that the people that don't like 3.5 was do to the fact that it had to many rules, and to much stuff to keep up with. Well it looks like 4th edition might be doing the same thing, I could be wrong but thats just my opinion.
Need? 0. Both books and core races.
The problem with the amount of books in 3.5 was how things were spread out. One book might have a couple classes, prestige classes, feats, etc.,. Another one might have a new race. The 4th edition books are properly sorted. The races, classes and feats are in the PHBs and the campaign setting Player's Guides.
Would you mind shortening your signature or putting it inside [ sblock ] boxes? Having a signature way longer than the post it's attached to is annoying (and gives people the impression that you have very little actual content to what you are saying). I'm sure it'd be widely appreciated.
There are other rpg companies, still in business, still selling product, that do not have new books every 3 months. As a matter of fact, some of the books have not changed in 10-20 years.
WotC is not analogous to other game companies. It's the largest company in the PnP RPG business by far. Other companies have only a few game developers; WotC has many, and a long history of releasing splatbooks regularly. What is it exactly you expect them to do? Release one splatbook a year and just wait to go bankrupt? Lay off 9/10 of their developers in this economy right after releasing the original 3 books, and then explain to Hasbro why they'll be making 1/10 the amount of money they've been making off the D&D brand?
And why do you object to the release of new content--races, classes, feats, magic items and the like--so strongly? As long as WotC isn't introducing new rules that affect old content, and as long as the new options are balanced, how does it adversely affect you if WotC releases a splatbook every month? You don't have to buy it. It has absolutely no effect on your game. The way things are now, all the D&D players who like having new options every month get what they want, and you aren't affected at all.
There are other rpg companies, still in business, still selling product, that do not have new books every 3 months. As a matter of fact, some of the books have not changed in 10-20 years.
I understand why WotC does it, but it doesn't make me like it ...
This is true but what % of market share do those companies hold?
I agree with you to an extent though, hopefully 4e doesn't end up as splat happy as 3e.
There are other rpg companies, still in business, still selling product, that do not have new books every 3 months. As a matter of fact, some of the books have not changed in 10-20 years.
I understand why WotC does it, but it doesn't make me like it ...
But if those smaller rpg companies had the resources to produce a book every month and had a fanbase willing to put down money every month for the new books, they would do the same as WotC in a heartbeat. Its a bit ridiculous to question why a company that makes money selling books actually wants to put out new books.
The problem I have with a new PHB is the new races classes. Don't get me wrong, those are cool. But I already my PC, now I want to switch . Give me all the classes ai once. But give me all the other stuff, live new weapons armour, feats etc...
Wanting an entire suite of classes that haven't even been designed yet isn't remotely realistic. Just like you can't go to the car dealership expecting to buy a 2015 Ford Mustang next week because they haven't made one yet, you can't expect them to put a few dozen classes that simply do not exist in the first book they put out.
I can remember trying to choose feats in 3.5; I'd have a dozen books open trying to find that certain one. Now I just need to look at the couple of PHs, maybe a players campaign guide, and that is it.
Well, in reality, I use the Character Builder, which not only collects all the feats from every book, but filters them by what is legal for my character, AND makes suggestions for race and class! CB rocks.
Anyway, I would complain more about having the 'complete' series than the '1 PH a year' route.
Verys
How many PHBs do we actually need?? Also, how many core races do we actually need?? I see that the people that don't like 3.5 was do to the fact that it had to many rules, and to much stuff to keep up with. Well it looks like 4th edition might be doing the same thing, I could be wrong but thats just my opinion.
Why do you care? Do you even play the game?
Example; 4e had updated Stealth rules to address the problem players found with the RAW. It was not added clutter.
3.x, on the other hand, had... at least 10 different books with more rules, more uses, added clutter, clarification, etc... just for Stealth.
If you wanted to find out all the uses for Stealth in 3.x, you HAD to search through numerous books to collect all the information on what you could do with the skill.
In 4e, you can look it up in one source (either PHB2 or, even better, DDI).
4e uses standard formats for adding player options (IE classes, races, PP's, ED's, items, etc) instead of splitting them into bits dropped into non-linear/comprehensive books).
For races, classes and player options, you get PHB's and player's guides. For DM info you get DMG's and CG's. For items or archetypes you have Adventurer's Vault and books like Open Grave or Draconomicon.
Overall, 4e adds options without clutter of added complexity.
You can open the PHB2 for the first time ten minutes before the game session, and already have your character as the campaign opens.
Compare this to the 3.5 "Every new book will contain classes which have different fundamentals, barely share anything with the original book, and aren't balanced between everything in every volume," and the joy of the new PHBs should be clear.
Now then, is this a serious complaint, or is this just this week's episode of XunValDorl Complains About 4e? Because I expected a better twist after last weeks fairly mundane, plot-building familiar rant. You need to boost your ratings if you want the show to go mainstream!
Of course the problem that we have here is that players with experience know of the past games and all of the weird combinations contained within. So how do you create a Gnome Bard without PH2 when you loved Gnome Bards before? And when will people be clamoring for the rest of the races and classes from previous editions to be put into PH3 and PH4? I think it is definitely nice their format, having one set of books with all new races, classes, feats, and basic rulesets.
Not to mention that the it opens the game up for more options, because the classes aren't just an occupation, but rather an archetype, and you can have everywhere from a Knight Errant to a Mountain King to a Mercenary to a Gladiator, all within a single class (Fighter). And wait... those jobs... they can be ascribed to other classes, too!
The Bard could be a scholar, a warrior skald, a mystic, an entertainer, a silver-tongued scoundrel, even a Pirate. Classes are not limited by a single role. If there's only one way to build a class, it's not one. So no longer do we have splat classes like Dread Necromancer, Archivist, Swashbuckler, Healer, Warmage, etc (as well as classes covering the same name territory, like Shaman and Spirit Shaman, as well as variants of the same class like OA Samurai, and CW Samurai), but rather these are all found in preexisting classes, or classes on their way (like Necromancer). The core rulebook system makes it so that we don't need a library of D&D volumes in order to find just the right combination to make that perfect character. All you need is the PHs, maybe a single PG, and maybe a Power book for that build that was introduced in the new release. That's 4 books (counting PH1,2, FRPG, and a single _P book).
Hence the part that says "I understand why WotC does it, but it doesn't make me like it."
Well, my comment was aimed at least as much at the OP as it was you. Sorry for the confusion.
Selling books is one thing, titling them to make people "feel" like they are "core" and need to have is another. Also note how they spread previous "core" races and classes between books.
I can sort of almost understand why some people are peeved about the new marketing strategy. After all, they straight up told us before 4E was released that they planned on putting some of the traditional monsters in later monster manuals in order to boost sales of those books.
But really, how is titling a new 4E book "Players Handbook 2" any different from them titling the old 3.5 "Players Handbook 2"? How does the title "Martial Power" give people an irresistable urge to by more books that they didn't have when they read the title "Complete Warrior"? I just don't get how people are experiencing some overwhelming pressure to buy more books simply because WotC uses the term "core" all the time. Its pretty self-evident that the new releases aren't necessary to play the game if you have already been using the first 3 books with no issue.
There is absolutely no way you can be suprised by this, considering they announced this model right from the start.
He doesn't read the books. Why would he read WotCs very clearly announced marketing plan?
And so for a large part, 4e delivers. There's 3 feats for Drow in Arcane Power. Swordmage is heavily featured there as well. Artificer isn't, because the core class hasn't been released yet. That's something for Arcane Power 2. Half-Elves get a feat in PH2 that (especially combined with Bards) makes them amazing multiclassers come Paragon Tier, and great all-round even without multiclassing. Genasi get 6 feats in Martial Power, not to mention their support in Arcane Power as well.
He doesn't read the books. Why would he read WotCs very clearly announced marketing plan?
He has to have learned about PHB III somewhere, and the only place you can hear about it at this point is their clearly announce marketing plan.
As for the thoroughly confusing comment about 3.5, I don't think anyone ever complained about the number of books/rules, just the plethora of subsystems. If the Shadow source comes out with a class design that's outside the Powers system, then we'll talk.
.
Wanting an entire suite of classes that haven't even been designed yet isn't remotely realistic. Just like you can't go to the car dealership expecting to buy a 2015 Ford Mustang next week because they haven't made one yet, you can't expect them to put a few dozen classes that simply do not exist in the first book they put out.
I know wanting 2015 stang in 09 is not possable. But are you telling me that these new races/class they just came up with them after PHB 1. Maybe some but not druids bards etc.
I know wanting 2015 stang in 09 is not possable. But are you telling me that these new races/class they just came up with them after PHB 1. Maybe some but not druids bards etc.
They didn't come up with the class features until after the PHB 1. I suppose they could have taken the Wizard class, find replaced Sorcerer in and removed the free rituals. That would be in keeping with the treatment the class got before. But that only works up to a point. After that you need a class to go with your class title.
EDIT: Ahh. Sorry to be a bit defencive.
I know wanting 2015 stang in 09 is not possable. But are you telling me that these new races/class they just came up with them after PHB 1. Maybe some but not druids bards etc.
The druid did not exist as a complete class when the PHB was released. We had a developer's blog in late summer / early fall telling us that he had just handed in the first complete draft of the class.
Yes, the name "druid" existed before the PHB 1 was released, just as the name "Ford Mustang" predates the year 2015. This does not mean that the new version of either exists simply because have the concept that such things could exist.
Vaal, I was responding to GhostSteppers comment about Core. Core is just WotC new way of saying we're going to actually support things and not have them all with their own subsystems and you having to read 50 different books in order to build one character.
Oh, i fully understand and support the idea. Classes and races that came out in 3.5 splatbooks were instantly forgotten once released, while the marketing strategy of 4e insures that more things actually get support.
I do understand why some folks were/are ****** about WotC spreading things out though. Some people think that just because something was core in past version that it is utter sacrilege to omit it from the initial release of a new edition. Some people have ongoing campaigns that incorporate things that were supported previously in the core books but are being put off until later in 4E. I don't belong to either of these groups of people, so i couldn't care less, but i understand these peoples' gripe.
I can sort of almost understand why some people are peeved about the new marketing strategy. After all, they straight up told us before 4E was released that they planned on putting some of the traditional monsters in later monster manuals in order to boost sales of those books.
It's more so that they admitted to holding back old stuff so that there would be no need to try sell books made entirely of new and unfamiliar concepts. Some of the later Monster Manuals in 3.X sold poorly because people didn't know what to do with 90% of the critters. By holding back on updates of some of the older game elements WotC creates an environment were books are roughly 50/50 in regards to new vs. old material. The new material gets players excited, while the old material provides nostalgic comfort; ideally this means that ever Monster Manual (and other 4e products) will have something for everyone.
It's more so that they admitted to holding back old stuff so that there would be no need to try sell books made entirely of new and unfamiliar concepts. Some of the later Monster Manuals in 3.X sold poorly because people didn't know what to do with 90% of the critters. By holding back on updates of some of the older game elements WotC creates an environment were books are roughly 50/50 in regards to new vs. old material. The new material gets players excited, while the old material provides nostalgic comfort; ideally this means that ever Monster Manual (and other 4e products) will have something for everyone.
It is a good idea in theory and im sure it will generate sales but the nerd-rage when "my pet race X" and "my favorite class Y" didn't come out immediately in the first 3 books was totally predictable. Some folks will never be happy unless they get 100% old stuff while completely ignoring the fact that when they first saw it back during whatever edition they started playing, it was pulled fresh from ass of that generation's game designer. I'm sure we can all remember the absolutely ridiculous "I can't believe these designers are so arrogant that they are trying to insert their own stuff into DnD!" arguments people were making when 4E first came out.
In the end you are still going to have to go through books and books to create your character.
Fortunately they'll all be named PHB or [Power source] Power. So you'll know which ones to buy instead of wondering exactly which book has Greater Manyshot.
The problem with coming out with so many books is that if you are in the middle of a campaign and a new book comes out with a new race then there is that person in the party that does whatever they can to die so they can make another character.
This seems to be a problem with your group, not with WotC's marketing. Maybe your DM should work on making his players actually enjoy their characters for being their characters instead of a series of stats.
What will happen is they will have good products in the first few years and everyone gets excited when a new product comes out so everyone goes out to buy it and they notice little by little that the material is slowly declining.
3.5 got (on average) better material as time progressed so making assumptions of fail seems like jumping the gun. Not to mention how there are threads in this very sub forum about how badly some people want the classes that will be released.
In the end you are still going to have to go through books and books to create your character.
The difference is the number of books. in 3.5 one character might easily use rules from a dozen or more books. In 4e a typical is unalike to require much more than 2-4 (1 PHB/PG for race, 1 PHB/PG for class, 1-2 power books for expanded options, +? a few other books for the occasional feet).
What will happen is they will have good products in the first few years and everyone gets excited when a new product comes out so everyone goes out to buy it and they notice little by little that the material is slowly declining.
The 4e release strategy makes impending decline less likely. Previous editions have made the mistake of releasing supplements with too narrow a niche just to fill out some arbitrary series requirement. Frostburn was pretty good, but later environment books were clearly struggling to fill their page count. Comparatively, 4e is just releasing far more generic supplements that can cover a wider variety of options. 4e is also helped by a slowed release schedule, typically 1 new book per month instead of 2, this means less rushing products though development just to put more books on the shelves.
In the end you are still going to have to go through books and books to create your character.
The new set-up makes it much less of an ordeal than last edition at least. Now, there are books specifically for DMs that don't sneak a page of awesome feats in to appeal to players. In 3.5, i might have needed to use Libris Mortis, Compete Warrior, Draconomicon, the PHB and some obscure DM book that only had one decent feat to make my character since the marketing strategy that edition revolved around putting a handful of character options in every book so that players need every book to have all the options. Now, DMs know they don't need Martial Power and players know they don't need Draconomicon just for one feat.
The problem with coming out with so many books is that if you are in the middle of a campaign and a new book comes out with a new race then there is that person in the party that does whatever they can to die so they can make another character.
Uh...this occurred in every edition. Are you honestly suggesting that WotC never come out with any new races ever? Really??
What will happen is they will have good products in the first few years and everyone gets excited when a new product comes out so everyone goes out to buy it and they notice little by little that the material is slowly declining.
That would be an alright theory except for the fact that it was the exact opposite last edition. The core 3.5 PHB that came out first was horribly broken while gems like the warlock and the Tome of Battle came out later in the system's life cycle. When the designers become more comfortable with the in's and out's of a system, sometimes the options that come out later are better balanced and more fun to play than the early stuff.
Of course we could assume that you are totally right but what exactly is your solution then? For them to never release any new books because the material might "slowly decline"?
That would be an alright theory except for the fact that it was the exact opposite last edition. The core 3.5 PHB that came out first was horribly broken while gems like the warlock and the Tome of Battle came out later in the system's life cycle. When the designers become more comfortable with the in's and out's of a system, sometimes the options that come out later are better balanced and more fun to play than the early stuff.
Of course we could assume that you are totally right but what exactly is your solution then? For them to never release any new books because the material might "slowly decline"?
This is already happening, too, like with the Controller. In the PHB 1 they didn't have as much an idea about what they want controllers to do, and thus why the Wizard is more of a controller/striker hybrid, but in the PHB II the Invoker and Druid are much more developed along the controller path. It'll get better with age.
The problem with coming out with so many books is that if you are in the middle of a campaign and a new book comes out with a new race then there is that person in the party that does whatever they can to die so they can make another character.
This is a problem? I thought the whole idea with new things was to play with them. Not so?
It's not that 3.5 had too much content; it's that some of 3.5's basic core game mechanics were overly complicated. The grappling system and attack of opportunity system were both a little hard to follow, especially for new players. By contrast 4th edition simplified a bunch of the complicated rules and streamlined parts of the encounter design process for DMs.
I can't remember anybody complaining about either system having too much content, though. After all, generally speaking everybody likes seeing new races, classes, feats, powers, spells, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I like 3rd edition and I played it for a long time. I just like 4th edition's core game mechanics and layout more, especially as a DM tweaking encounters and adventures.
The other issue is that new 3.5e books introduced new subsystems like psionics, sword magic, binding magic, warlock magic, true name magic, incarnum, reserve feats, divine and arcane meta-magic, etc. that did not follow the general rules/framework of the basic game.
This lead to balance issues (the systems didn't necessarily mesh well with the overall rules structure) and also made it difficult for DMs to determine the impact of allowing a new splat book into their game.
4e is going to have just as many, if not more splat books than 3.0/3.5. The difference is that everything is going to follow the unified "powers and roles" framework that they introduced in PH1. Psionics will not, for example, be a separate sub-system; psionic characters will still choose at-will/encounter/utility/daily powers in the same fashion as everyone else.
The other issue is that new 3.5e books introduced new subsystems like psionics, sword magic, binding magic, warlock magic, true name magic, incarnum, reserve feats, divine and arcane meta-magic, etc. that did not follow the general rules/framework of the basic game.
This lead to balance issues (the systems didn't necessarily mesh well with the overall rules structure) and also made it difficult for DMs to determine the impact of allowing a new splat book into their game.
4e is going to have just as many, if not more splat books than 3.0/3.5. The difference is that everything is going to follow the unified "powers and roles" framework that they introduced in PH1. Psionics will not, for example, be a separate sub-system; psionic characters will still choose at-will/encounter/utility/daily powers in the same fashion as everyone else.
This sums it up perfectly. Huzzah for unified mechanics!
Uh...this occurred in every edition. Are you honestly suggesting that WotC never come out with any new races ever? Really??
Why not go into more depth with the races they already have??
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Why not go into more depth with the races they already have??
They already have been; Racial Backgrounds, Racial Paragon Paths, various Paragon Paths and Feats based off Races, the "Ecology of" Articles.
So your getting both, for those that don't want to use more races has this. For those that want more races they have Player's Handbooks, anymore Races in DDI and Player's Guides.
I would say that is a pretty even divide. I personally am quite happy with them adding more and more Races in the Player's Handbooks since it means more exotic races (don't really like traditional ones) and the PHBs are where the largest group of crunch will be so if you wish that is all you need to get each year to get a ton of stuff.
Why not go into more depth with the races they already have??
They have been.
So far, Martial Power, Arcane Power, and PHB2 have all had expanded options specifically for each of the races introduced in the first phb.
Why not go into more depth with the races they already have??
Thats what the Ecology articles in Dragon are for. The Players Handbooks are for racial mechanics, just like the initial PHB, and WotC has apparently decided to stick with that proven formula. I'm sure the PHB2 wouldn't have sold nearly as well if it had contained 0 new races.
Second, im betting that a lot of people dont want more fluff regarding the same old elves, dwarves, and halfings that have been written about a thousand times in a thousand fantasy novels. People who want those races already have them and there is a huge demographic that would rather play something new/different. Basically, WotC is putting out new PHBs with new races because that is what sells books.
EDIT: Man, second time i got totally ninja'd by multiple people. lol
But these sorts of things are fluff, and territory mostly for the DM to use at discretion. Note that many of the Ecology articles use a DC information check system where they say "tell your players about this part of the article if they know this."
That's DDi territory. If it's feats and things you want, it's in the splat books. But it's not a "Races of" splatbook; you focus on your class, and the feats fit into the race and class/power source.
Most characters will only need the book with their race and the book with their class (1-2 books). Optionally, they can dig into the AV & appropriate 'Power' book for more...uh, options.
Or, one can subscribe to DDI and not have to worry about books at all.
Vaal, I was responding to GhostSteppers comment about Core. Core is just WotC new way of saying we're going to actually support things and not have them all with their own subsystems and you having to read 50 different books in order to build one character.
Well, sort of. It also means that PHB X (for X greater than 2) can reference a race, class, or other feat in PHB Y (for Y greater than 1 but less than X), in a campaign guide. One of the problems with most of the 3.0/3.5 splat books was that they pretty much had to only reference the initial core three (occasionally allowing a few spells from another source.) This did mean that you could, for example, use a class from PHB II and not have to worry about having the Complete Arcane, or Complete Adventurer, but it also meant that some natural combinations weren't supported. (I'm thinking of splat-book classes with limited spell lists. They were pretty much limited to just PHB spells plus new ones.) Plus feats ended up in multiple splat books, and often differed slightly between them. If 4th edition treated core the same as 3.5 did, you would never see a feat for a sword mage outside of Forgotten Realm material (or a Dragon article), never see a racial feat for gnome outside of PHB II, never find a fighter power which used the "invigorating" keyword (introduced in Martial Power) in a campaign source book etc.
Well, sort of. It also means that PHB X (for X greater than 2) can reference a race, class, or other feat in PHB Y (for Y greater than 1 but less than X), in a campaign guide. One of the problems with most of the 3.0/3.5 splat books was that they pretty much had to only reference the initial core three (occasionally allowing a few spells from another source.) This did mean that you could, for example, use a class from PHB II and not have to worry about having the Complete Arcane, or Complete Adventurer, but it also meant that some natural combinations weren't supported. (I'm thinking of splat-book classes with limited spell lists. They were pretty much limited to just PHB spells plus new ones.) Plus feats ended up in multiple splat books, and often differed slightly between them. If 4th edition treated core the same as 3.5 did, you would never see a feat for a sword mage outside of Forgotten Realm material (or a Dragon article), never see a racial feat for gnome outside of PHB II, never find a fighter power which used the "invigorating" keyword (introduced in Martial Power) in a campaign source book etc.
Well it's kind of too late because there are Deva racial feats in the Arcane Power book.
There are other rpg companies, still in business, still selling product, that do not have new books every 3 months.
Do these companies have staff as large as WotC? Because the larger ones (Goodman Games and Paizo for examples) publish products each month.
So you'll know which ones to buy instead of wondering exactly which book has Greater Manyshot.
XPH, right? What was up with that?
XPH, right? What was up with that?
Which totally sucked because i needed it to pimp of Scout skirmish damage but needed nothing psionic in the whole book!
Well it's kind of too late because there are Deva racial feats in the Arcane Power book.
Close, but such feats are in fact arcane feats (that's why they are in Arcane Power), they just happen to have an extra racial requirement as well. Anyone planing on making a deva arcanist would natural assume that Arcane Power would have options for their character, so there is no problem.
PHB
DMG
MM
Splat Books
Campaign Core
Player Campaign
Campaign Adventure
Do these companies have staff as large as WotC? Because the larger ones (Goodman Games and Paizo for examples) publish products each month.
Mmm you have White Wolf, FASA, Palladium, and Malhavoc that have a nice size work force.
Mmm you have White Wolf, FASA, Palladium, and Malhavoc that have a nice size work force.
Dude, you're a bit out of date there. FASA has been out of business for most of this decade, so methinks their workforce is pretty small. Palladium openly admits that they're struggling, and besides, they put out books constantly (or did back in the days when I played Palladium games... and during those days, they were successful). I've no idea how consistently Malhavoc and White Wolf put books out these days, but I'm willing to wager they, too, are interested in making money by selling sourcebooks.
The release schedule looks pretty good to me.
Mmm you have White Wolf, FASA
Those two prove my point. White Wolf published 4 books in the first quarter of this year. Which was its smallest quarter. FASA shut down 8 years ago.
You could be right with Malhavoc though. No-one knows much about that company. So it must definitely rival White Wolf and Wizards in its size.
Those two prove my point. White Wolf published 4 books in the first quarter of this year. Which was its smallest quarter. FASA shut down 8 years ago.
You could be right with Malhavoc though. No-one knows much about that company. So it must definitely rival White Wolf and Wizards in its size.
Malhavoc is doing very well. Monte puts out a lot.
or he is just really focused on how it all effects his character...?
I get the feeling that the OP has not much experience with previous editions, as most of his complaints would have suffered even more so back then...
or he is just really focused on how it all effects his character...?
No, he just likes complaining.
Then again he wouldn't be able to complain anymore XD
Xun should create his own game to fit his precise needs.
Then again he wouldn't be able to complain anymore XD
I dunno, I really don't think that would stop him.
Malhavoc is doing very well. Monte puts out a lot.
How much is a lot? Also that doesn't say how many people they employ.
Monte puts out a lot.
That right there is libel. ;)
But in all honesty, when was the last time he published anything under Malhavoc Press at all?
And I do mean "he" and not "they".
Unlike Wizards and White Wolf, Malhavoc is just Monte Cook. There's not really a staff of people that work there full time.
As much as I love the work he's done, Monte Cook isn't one of the major players in the industry anymore.
Unlike Wizards and White Wolf, Malhavoc is just Monte Cook. There's not really a staff of people that work there full time.
In which case my point is completely proved by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek.
Every major RPG company releases books each month. Those that don't, don't have large staff.
Further, I really like the de-emphasis of written flavor for classes and paragon paths in 4E compared to 3.5's classes and PrC's. All too often players would willingly limit the flavor of their character to what it said in the book, which is both limiting for the player (he can't use as many cool role playing ideas) and for the DM, especially if the class/PrC was tied to some arbitrary organization that was not in his world. More or less, it meant either the DM had to allow the organization or change the fluff of the class, which had the potential for upsetting the player who saw Class X as this and not that. Essentially, it just relives everyone of arbitrary burdens.
The only real grief I have with 4E's publishing method is the lack of extra source books for the 2 major campaign settings - Eberron and Forgotten Realms.
That right there is libel. ;)
Thanks Raven, you owe me for a new moniter - I'll remember not to read your posts while drinking tea in future ;)
How many PHBs do we actually need?? Also, how many core races do we actually need?? I see that the people that don't like 3.5 was do to the fact that it had to many rules, and to much stuff to keep up with. Well it looks like 4th edition might be doing the same thing, I could be wrong but thats just my opinion.
:P
Malhavoc is doing very well. Monte puts out a lot.
Correction: did well ;) Monte took a step back. Officially he stopped, but in practice he occassionaly writes a product (mostly minor projects he writes besides his major stuff). He did recently started an on-line project DungeonADay.com. In any event, I find it a bit odd to compare a 1-person company with a company like WotC of White Wolf ;)
Correction: did well ;) Monte took a step back. Officially he stopped, but in practice he occassionaly writes a product (mostly minor projects he writes besides his major stuff). He did recently started an on-line project DungeonADay.com. In any event, I find it a bit odd to compare a 1-person company with a company like WotC of White Wolf ;)
In my opinion Monte can do the work of several people. Don't forget that he did a lot for WotC.
I get the feeling that the OP has not much experience with previous editions, as most of his complaints would have suffered even more so back then...
or he is just really focused on how it all effects his character...?
Actually I have been playing for 24 years.
In my opinion Monte can do the work of several people. Don't forget that he did a lot for WotC.
You're just slipping further and further away from whatever point you were trying to make.
Was Monte Cook a powerhouse of the gaming industry? Yes, at one point. For whatever reason, he's decided to scale down his involvement in the industry.
Does he currently make enough money under Malhavoc Press to support even himself as a full time job? No.
Actually I have been playing for 24 years.
Have you ever DMed a game for an extended period of time?
I know we're banking on more Psi or Shadow than Ki, and by the looks of the previous handbooks, that means Ye Olde 4/2/2 split. If Psi is the four, it'll be pulling out all the stops with telekinesis, empathy, perhaps a little id insinuation and all the wonderful pyrokinesis we know and love in psychic warriors and weirders alike. Shadow's got its two biggest guns, the shadowcaster-esque illusionist and whatever-name-fits-the-shadowdancer that we have sneaked, slashed, and supersubtly convinced the guard he was a penguin for ages. And the monk is obvious. He's the guy who sold the entire Ki power source on his mojo alone.
But the 2nd Ki? I don't envy the guy who makes it.
A monk defines what generic Ki is all about, kind of like when you say Cleric, you know divine, or mention Wizard, and you get the quintessential arcane. But the 2nd Ki Guy has to expand the power source, demonstrate what else it can be, show off its potential in ways that validate the entire power source as a part of the DnD cosmology. The Robin to the Monk's Batman, except with tighter expectations and pants.
If its too flamboyant, Ki will be dismissed as "martial but more awesome." If its too ridiculous, Ki will be "that class that does whatever the funky hell it wants." If its name sounds even vaguely eastern, Ki will be "The Asian Power Source." If it is too divergent from the monk, Ki will be "Monk+random incarnate stuff dropped in to justify other classes."
Given the track record of 4e, I'm fairly confident they can pull it off. They've done amazing stuff, both with revitalizing old material (the Bard, transforming White Raven into the Warlord), and presenting new and exciting classes unique unto themselves (Avenger, Warden). So I do think they can do it. I'm just really interested to see how.
You're just slipping further and further away from whatever point you were trying to make.
Was Monte Cook a powerhouse of the gaming industry? Yes, at one point. For whatever reason, he's decided to scale down his involvement in the industry.
Does he currently make enough money under Malhavoc Press to support even himself as a full time job? No.
So you are Monte's Marketing Director??
So you are Monte's Marketing Director??
ROFL: this is the culmination of your argument that Malhavoc is a large game company with an equivalent number of employees to WotC, yet not putting out books every couple months?
So you are Monte's Marketing Director??
You have yet to do anything at all to prove Monte Cook is on the same business scale as WotC or White Wolf.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Shadow's got its two biggest guns, the shadowcaster-esque illusionist and whatever-name-fits-the-shadowdancer that we have sneaked, slashed, and supersubtly convinced the guard he was a penguin for ages.
See, I don't think that the Shadow power source is going to cover illusions and such; the Illusionist build for wizard is pretty solid, and Feylock and whatever they use for telepathy will round out the edges. I feel pretty certain that the Shadow controller is going to be more along the lines of Necromancer. That's what the Shadow source should be-- creepy-themed PC's with a tie to the Shadowfell.
More to the point of the OP: I see the "need" of PH3-- personally, I can't wait to try the psionic classes-- but the real question is about PH5 or PH12. I don't think that WotC needs to constantly try to create new power sources simply to justify new PH's. I'm happy that they're doing Martial Power 2, and I hope that the Power books will be a better avenue for their marketing. I'm already confused about the (proposed) Elemental power source-- I don't see how that power source would greatly differ from Arcane or Primal. In 5 years I don't want to see a gaggle of Blue Raja knock-offs simply because Power Source: Cutlery was all they had left to support the PH line.
I know-- the caveat of "don't use it if you don't want to" still applies, but I find 4E to be an elegant system, and I want it to avoid the inevitable power creep caused by the exponential tonnage of new options.
The big one I'm looking for is this handbook's Mysterious Entry, the 2nd Ki class.
And the monk is obvious. He's the guy who sold the entire Ki power source on his mojo alone.
But the 2nd Ki? I don't envy the guy who makes it.
A monk defines what generic Ki is all about, kind of like when you say Cleric, you know divine, or mention Wizard, and you get the quintessential arcane. But the 2nd Ki Guy has to expand the power source, demonstrate what else it can be, show off its potential in ways that validate the entire power source as a part of the DnD cosmology. The Robin to the Monk's Batman, except with tighter expectations and pants.
If its too flamboyant, Ki will be dismissed as "martial but more awesome." If its too ridiculous, Ki will be "that class that does whatever the funky hell it wants." If its name sounds even vaguely eastern, Ki will be "The Asian Power Source." If it is too divergent from the monk, Ki will be "Monk+random incarnate stuff dropped in to justify other classes."
Given the track record of 4e, I'm fairly confident they can pull it off. They've done amazing stuff, both with revitalizing old material (the Bard, transforming White Raven into the Warlord), and presenting new and exciting classes unique unto themselves (Avenger, Warden). So I do think they can do it. I'm just really interested to see how.
Going off past experiences, the 2nd Ki will probably be a control or a leader. We already know the monk will be a striker, so if we think what else you could do with Kung-Foo, it would be that old guy that sidesteps things, laughing as he slowly disables his opponent's limbs, or the physical therapist, who uses her spiritual knowledge to heal wounds and reveal weak points.
OR
The same thing that happened to druid might happen here. Druid was split in three; leader, melee control, and melee defender. Those were always the druid's primary roles in 3e. It would make sense that monk would be split in a similar manner. She always used to be such a utility character. Who else could scale a wall, pick a lock, heal, scrap, and be all over the place. So I don't think it's impossible to have a two, or even three way split with the Ki powers.
but the real question is about PH5 or PH12. I don't think that WotC needs to constantly try to create new power sources simply to justify new PH's.
Too many power sources could become a potential problem, but I could still conceive that a few more beyond first 8 could exist, even if I don't presently know what they might be.
More importantly though, PHB5+ might be used to revisit older power sources. By than many of the limits of current arcane, divine, martial, and primal classes will have been explored and it might be really pleasant to see a new batch of such classes.
More importantly though, PHB5+ might be used to revisit older power sources. By than many of the limits of current arcane, divine, martial, and primal classes will have been explored and it might be really pleasant to see a new batch of such classes.
Especially with the yearly Power books. They can't put out too many without stretching the Class Concept to breaking point. So new classes in old Power Sources would take the place in the Power books.
So new classes in old Power Sources would take the place in the Power books.
They've said they will only be putting new classes in the player's guides for a setting and in phbs so new classes won't appear in power source books. New builds, class abilities, and powers for existing classes, but not new classes
They've said they will only be putting new classes in the player's guides for a setting and in phbs so new classes won't appear in power source books. New builds, class abilities, and powers for existing classes, but not new classes
Which is why, for example, Martial power 3 would include feats and powers for a martial class introduced in Player's Handbook 5, but not for classes like Fighter who were covered in Martial Power 1 and 2.
How many PHBs do we actually need??
However many WOTC decides are needed.
However many WOTC decides are needed.
Actually, its how many they feel will keep selling.
Actually, its how many they feel will keep selling.
Isn't that the same thing?
The developers might feel that a psionic power source is "needed" but if they didn't think it would sell, it wouldn't be put out.
Psh. If they didn't think it would sell, they'd pair it up in a book with a power source they think would sell.
How many PHBs do we actually need?? Also, how many core races do we actually need?? I see that the people that don't like 3.5 was do to the fact that it had to many rules, and to much stuff to keep up with. Well it looks like 4th edition might be doing the same thing, I could be wrong but thats just my opinion.
4E's schedule is really not terribly different than 2E's release schedule. It is simply arranged in a more logical and organized fashion now, and has a number of releases relative to the higher volume the company moves and larger customer base it craters to:
1989
Dungeon Master's Guide
Player's Handbook
Monstrous Compendium, Vol. 1
Monstrous Compendium, Vol. 2
The Complete Fighter's Handbook
The Complete Thief's Handbook
Battlesystem, 2nd edition
Dungeon Master Screen, 2nd edition
1990
Legends & Lore
The Complete Priest's Handbook
The Complete Wizards's Handbook
Campaign Sourcebook & Catacomb Guide
Castle Guide
1991
Monstrous Compendium, Outer Planes Appendix
The Complete Book of Psionics
The Complete Book of Dwarves
Arms and Equipment Guide
Vikings Campaign Sourcebook
Tome of Magic
Battlesystem Skirmishes
1992
Monstrous Compendium, Fiend Folio Appendix
The Magic Encyclopedia, Vol. 1
The Complete Bard's Handbook
The Complete Book of Elves
Monster Mythology
Charlemagne's Paladins Campaign Sourcebook
Celts Campaign Sourcebook
Mighty Fortress Campaign Sourcebook
Strongholds
Dungeons of Mystery
Treasure Maps
Fighter's Challenge
Wizard's Challenge
Rogues' Gallery
1993
The Magic Encyclopedia, Vol. 2
Monstrous Manual
Book of Artifacts
The Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings
The Complete Book of Humanoids
The Complete Ranger's Handbook
Creative Campaigning
The Glory of Rome Campaign Sourcebook
Dragon Mountain, boxed adventure
The Murky Deep
Swamplight
Tales of Enchantment
Thief's Challenge
Cleric's Challenge
1994
Monstrous Compendium Annual Vol. 1
Encyclopedia Magica, Vol. 1 A-D
The Complete Paladin's Handbook
The Complete Druid's Handbook
The Complete Book of Villains
Age of Heroes Campaign Sourcebook
The Crusades Campaign Sourcebook
Council Of Worms, boxed adventure
Temple, Tower, and Tomb
Treasure Chest
City Sites
Fighter's Challenge 2
Wizard's Challenge 2
1995
Encyclopedia Magica, Vol. 2 D-P
Encyclopedia Magica, Vol. 3 P-S
Encyclopedia Magica, Vol. 4 S-Z, and Index
Player's Handbook, revised
Dungeon Master's Guide, revised
Player's Option: Combat & Tactics
Player's Option: Skills & Powers
Dungeon Master's Options: High Level Campaign
Dungeon Master's Screen and Master Index
Monstrous Compendium Annual Vol. 2
The Complete Barbarian's Handbook
The Complete Ninja's Handbook
The Complete Book of Necromancers
Night Below: An Underdark Campaign, boxed adventure
Castle Sites
Country Sites
Thief's Challenge 2
Cleric's Challenge 2
The Dancing Hut of Baba-Yaga
Labrynth of Madness
Chronomancer
Shaman
1996
Player's Option: Spells & Magic
Sages and Specialists
World Builder's Guidebook
Wizard's Spell Compendium, Vol. 1
Monstrous Compendium Annual, Vol. 3
Monstrous Compenium, Savage Coast Appendix
Savage Coast, Campaign Expansion
Tales of the Comet, Campaign Expansion, boxed set
The Silver Key
I, Tyrant Monstrous Arcana adventure
Eye of Pain
Eye of Doom
Eye to Eye
The Rod of Seven Parts, boxed adventure
Player's Option Adventure: Gates of Firestorm Peak
Den of Thieves
A Hero's Tale
Treasure Tales
1997
Wizard's Spell Compendium, Vol. 2
Of Ships and the Sea
Sea of Blood Monstrous Arcana adventure
Night of the Shark
Evil Tide Monstrous Arcana adventure
The Sea Devils Monstrous Arcana adventure
1998
Monstrous Manual
Wizard's Spell Compendium, Vol. 3
Dungeon Builder's Guidebook
Wizard's Spell Compendium, Vol 4
Monstrous Compendium Annual, Vol. 4
College of Wizardry
Jakandor: Island of War!
Moonlight Madness RPGA Network Adventure
The Illithiad Monstrous Arcana Accessory
A Darkness Gathering
Jakandor: Isle of Destiny
Return to the Tomb of Horrors
Masters of Eternal Night
A Paladin in Hell
Dawn of the Overmind
Jakandor: Land of Legend
The Lost Shrine of Bundushatur
Destiny of Kings
1999
Dungeons and Dragons Game (Box Ruleset)
Priest's Spell Compendium, Vol 1
AD&D Campaign Option: Council of Wyrms
Priest's Spell Compendium, Vol 2
The Shattered Circle
Warriors of Heaven
Axe of the Dwarvish Lords
Skullport
Carnival
A Guide to Hell
Bastion of Faith
Ravenloft 25th Anniversary Edition
2000
Priest's Spell Compendium, Vol 3
Reverse Dungeon
The Apocalypse Stone
The Vortex of Madness and Other Planar Perils
Die Vecna Die
...plus 12 issues each of Dragon and Dungeon magazines each year.
Doesn't look so different than what exists now, with one major exception: The products released now each have more overall relevance to a wider variety of campaigns, save the three releases (Campaign Guide, Player's Guide and Setting Adventure) each year.
Note that this is just 2nd Edition AD&D (and I erased all of the release like encounter decks of cards, spell cards, et al). 3E(+3.5) looks even closer to the 4E schedule, again growing roughly in proportion to increased business.
4E's schedule is really not terribly different than 2E's release schedule. It is simply arranged in a more logical and organized fashion now, and has a number of releases relative to the higher volume the company moves and larger customer base it caters to:1989
Dungeon Master's Guide
Player's Handbook
Monstrous Compendium, Vol. 1
Monstrous Compendium, Vol. 2
The Complete Fighter's Handbook
The Complete Thief's Handbook
Battlesystem, 2nd edition
Dungeon Master Screen, 2nd edition
There are other rpg companies, still in business, still selling product, that do not have new books every 3 months. As a matter of fact, some of the books have not changed in 10-20 years.
I understand why WotC does it, but it doesn't make me like it ...
And they make as much money as WotC does? No? Can you guess why?
Mmm you have White Wolf, FASA, Palladium, and Malhavoc that have a nice size work force.
White Wolf publish same (if not more) books than WotC per quarter.
FASA is out of business (which kind of proves that if you dont publish enough, you perish)
Palladium is struggling (See point 2)
Malhavoc isnt (and wasnt) a player of the size of WoTC or White Wolf. And actually, the reason they did not publish more books per year was that they were *too small* to do so (as much prolific as Monte is, he is still a one person army)
So bassically you proved the opposite you tried to do:
Companies have 2 options. Publish, or die.
How many PHBs do we actually need?? Also, how many core races do we actually need?? I see that the people that don't like 3.5 was do to the fact that it had to many rules, and to much stuff to keep up with. Well it looks like 4th edition might be doing the same thing, I could be wrong but thats just my opinion.
It would appear the new business model is to take classes and disect them into more classes, thus the need for more PHBs, same goes for races(e.g. Elf / Eladrin).
As mentioned before WotC is a business, and as such they are in it to make a profit. What better way than to release new goodies each and every month!
/sarcasm off
Bring back Half-Orges!!!