That's why Wizards should release this splatbook instead:
Player's Options: (anti-)Heroes of the Nine Hells
($21.95)
Send your heroes and anti-heroes to Hell! This sourcebook has new themes (Betrayer, Damned, Sysiphean), races (Cambion, Lemure, Lost Soul), Paragon Paths (Paladin in Hell, Infernal Tour Guide) and a guide to the increasingly Byzantine politics of Asmodeus' court! Plus a look at the Nine Hells' closest competition in the Astral Sea: the Seven Purgatories of GeHinnom! Yes for the first time in 4E, GeHinnom is back, with razor sharp odors, painfully hot delicacies, and the stats on the Angels running the place! (Their motto: we may be Evil, but we're dependable!)
I think it is called the Book of Vile Darkness.
That book is for DMs. He is suggesting something for players.
I think it is called the Book of Vile Darkness.
That book is for DMs.
DMs AND players.
I think it is called the Book of Vile Darkness.
That book is for DMs.
DMs AND players.
Exactly, there'll be stuff for both DMs and players in the Vile Darkness. I think the November and Beyond segment of Vile Darkness said that the Vile Darkness is actually a set of two books. A small book for player options, and the bigger of the two for DMs which I assume would having the usual background info, campaigns, etc.
I wouldn't mind if newer Player's Options books revisited more specific sections of the planes, though. E.g., The Nine Hells, The Abyss, The City of Brass, ect. Maybe even Mechanus? It'd be neat if there was a set of mechanical character options.
Heroes of the Astral Sea would be a little on the big side. Like the Elemental Chaos. Wizards of the Coast seems to think that all the player options they can muster based on the Elemental Chaos can fit into one book, so why not with the Astral Sea too?
I wouldn't mind if newer Player's Options books revisited more specific sections of the planes, though. E.g., The Nine Hells, The Abyss, The City of Brass, ect. Maybe even Mechanus? It'd be neat if there was a set of mechanical character options.
They should start by telling us DMs where Mechanus exists in the 4e cosmology. It wasn't in Manual of the Planes or The Plane Above. Which is a bit strange, considering the upcoming modron article.
That being said, I'd think that one can generalize enough to make Heroes of...
- the Nine Hells
- the Divine Domains
- the Elemental Chaos
- Madness
'The Nine Hells' is so much more different than the rest of the Astral Sea to warrant its own book, even with the Book of Vile Darkness in the mix, since the latter seems to appeal more to the "basic" evil characters that a character can take, such as expanding on Heroes of Shadow, but I could be wrong here.
'The Divine Domains' could be split up in two books: Good and Evil, but the descriptions of the various non-Baator planes simply haven't got enough flavour on their own to support this, considering WotC's current catering more to newer players than to the ones who study every single anatomical diagram of a Grell they can get. If Heroes of the Nine Hells doesn't make it, splitting this category into Good and Evil would make more sense, but would require the addition of various realms with dead or missing deities. My generalisation here is that most of the good- or neutrally-aligned Domains (Celestia, Arvandor, etc.) are so much alike, while the evil ones are either "ALL WHO LIVE HERE DIE ON A DAILY BASIS" or just plain uninhabitable.
'The Elemental Chaos' - My reasoning for only a single book here would be 1) That only a few characters actually visit this place before they start their adventuring career; and 2) That there are so few inhabitable areas that the amount of material is lessened drastically in comparison to the Astral Sea. Generally, one can divide the Elemental Chaos into three categories - the City of Brass, the Abyss, and the rest - with their own 'flavor,' while the Plane Above has one for every second Divine Domain. www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/p...
'Madness' would be a logical final installment here, with support for star warlocks, alienists, psionics in general, aberrations, and those "touched" by the Far Realm. There is a lot to expand on here, including the slim chance of Mind Flayer or something like it, considering the recent Vampire class. Both were listed as paragon-tier monsters very early in 4e, and both are sentient humanoids. Maybe one who has broken free of the "hive mind"?
Anyway, just my view on the matter.
I think it is called the Book of Vile Darkness.
That book is for DMs.
DMs AND players.
Exactly, there'll be stuff for both DMs and players in the Vile Darkness. I think the November and Beyond segment of Vile Darkness said that the Vile Darkness is actually a set of two books. A small book for player options, and the bigger of the two for DMs which I assume would having the usual background info, campaigns, etc.
Book of Vile Darkness is meant to deal with evil PCs and evil campaigns. But a book about the Nine Hells from a player's viewpoint would be much more inclusive. As I mentioned in my fake product write-up, I envisioned it including backgrounds for "damned" PCs, but also Paragon Paths for good aligned heroes, like the archetypal paladin illustrated in the 1E PHB, who is gallantly cleaving his way through a bunch of lesser devils. There's definitely overlap between BoVD and my proposed PO
a)HotNH, but enough to keep them distinct.They should start by telling us DMs where Mechanus exists in the 4e cosmology. It wasn't in Manual of the Planes or The Plane Above. Which is a bit strange, considering the upcoming modron article.
The Astral Sea's a pretty big place. Just because Mechanus (aka Nirvana, aka The Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus) wasn't in either splatbook doesn't mean its not in the Astral Sea. (I could be crazy, but if there is an upcoming Modron article, I imagine the first order of business in the article will be to explain where Modrons live.)
It's its own planar intersection like the realm of dreams. They explained this in a sidebar ages back.
Okay, but how is it connected to the rest of the Multiverse? The Prime is in the middle; Astral Sea is above; the Elemental Chaos below; the Shadowfell and Feywild are reflections on either side; the Far Realm is beyond; and the Realm of Dreams is in between. Mechanus doesn't have an obvious fit like the Realm of Dreams, unless it exists in the shared stream of Universal Logos that flows through every sentient being's mind.
Mechanus also seems to embody Law in the same way that the Elemental Chaos embodies Chaos, so either Chaos rules the Multiverse, or Law and Chaos are roughly equal and exist in a constant struggle, and Mechanus is somehow of either the same size, same power or same importance as the Elemental Chaos.
EDIT: It seems that Heroes of the Elemental Chaos is confirmed, at least. So they probably won't do Heroes of the Abyss.
Book of Vile Darkness is meant to deal with evil PCs and evil campaigns. But a book about the Nine Hells from a player's viewpoint would be much more inclusive. As I mentioned in my fake product write-up, I envisioned it including backgrounds for "damned" PCs, but also Paragon Paths for good aligned heroes, like the archetypal paladin illustrated in the 1E PHB, who is gallantly cleaving his way through a bunch of lesser devils. There's definitely overlap between BoVD and my proposed PO
BoVD is not meant only for Evil PCs. It also contains useful information for DMs to bring a real sense of EVIL into a campaign, even a heroic one. There's even suggestions of a campaign arc for Good/Unaligned PCs who come across the BoVD, and seek to destroy it.
You're thinking of this too much like old-E cosmology. There's no "cosmic alignment" going on in 4E.
The astral sea and the elemental chaos are the counterparts of one another in the 4E cosmology, representing a contrasting set of forces: eternity vs perpetual transformation; the abstract vs the physical; and so on.
These have nothing to do with "alignment" in the old-E sense, though.
Book of Vile Darkness is meant to deal with evil PCs and evil campaigns. But a book about the Nine Hells from a player's viewpoint would be much more inclusive. As I mentioned in my fake product write-up, I envisioned it including backgrounds for "damned" PCs, but also Paragon Paths for good aligned heroes, like the archetypal paladin illustrated in the 1E PHB, who is gallantly cleaving his way through a bunch of lesser devils. There's definitely overlap between BoVD and my proposed PO
BoVD is not meant only for Evil PCs. It also contains useful information for DMs to bring a real sense of EVIL into a campaign, even a heroic one. There's even suggestions of a campaign arc for Good/Unaligned PCs who come across the BoVD, and seek to destroy it.
I belive I covered that in "evil campaign".
Aetharion: You're thinking of this too much like old-E cosmology. There's no "cosmic alignment" going on in 4E. The astral sea and the elemental chaos are the counterparts of one another in the 4E cosmology, representing a contrasting set of forces: eternity vs perpetual transformation; the abstract vs the physical; and so on. These have nothing to do with "alignment" in the old-E sense, though.
"Alignment" is needed when comparing counterparts. If considered as a sort of dualism - as you just said - that lies behind the Prime, then the Astral Sea itself would be a force of Cosmos/Eternity/Law, since Chaos in itself would need a counterpart - and Mechanus has thus lost its "old" place in the cosmology as the plane of eternal law.
If Mechanus then is a sort of "in-between" place like the Realm of Dreams, however, it will need a new definition when compared to the previous Alignment-governed cosmology. That place could very well be the effect of conscious, logical thought, in the same way that the Realm of Dreams is the effect of subconscious dreaming.
Aetharion: You're thinking of this too much like old-E cosmology. There's no "cosmic alignment" going on in 4E. The astral sea and the elemental chaos are the counterparts of one another in the 4E cosmology, representing a contrasting set of forces: eternity vs perpetual transformation; the abstract vs the physical; and so on. These have nothing to do with "alignment" in the old-E sense, though.
"Alignment" is needed when comparing counterparts. If considered as a sort of dualism - as you just said - that lies behind the Prime, then the Astral Sea itself would be a force of Cosmos/Eternity/Law, since Chaos in itself would need a counterpart - and Mechanus has thus lost its "old" place in the cosmology as the plane of eternal law.
If Mechanus then is a sort of "in-between" place like the Realm of Dreams, however, it will need a new definition when compared to the previous Alignment-governed cosmology. That place could very well be the effect of conscious, logical thought, in the same way that the Realm of Dreams is the effect of subconscious dreaming.
It was hinted in Psionic Power that Mechanus is the plane of absolute order of thought, and acts in dualism with the Far Realm with the Plane of Dreams in the Middle.
It was hinted in Psionic Power that Mechanus is the plane of absolute order of thought, and acts in dualism with the Far Realm with the Plane of Dreams in the Middle.
Funny how it doesn't refer to it by name, but yeah. An interesting thing is how the Phrenic planes seem to act together with 'our' world:
Far Realm + Mechanus -> Prime Minds -> Plane of Dreams <-> Prime Material Plane <- Far Realm + Mechanus
Which means that the Plane of Dreams is only indirectly affected by the two other Phrenic planes.
"Alignment" is needed when comparing counterparts. If considered as a sort of dualism - as you just said - that lies behind the Prime, then the Astral Sea itself would be a force of Cosmos/Eternity/Law, since Chaos in itself would need a counterpart - and Mechanus has thus lost its "old" place in the cosmology as the plane of eternal law.
If Mechanus then is a sort of "in-between" place like the Realm of Dreams, however, it will need a new definition when compared to the previous Alignment-governed cosmology. That place could very well be the effect of conscious, logical thought, in the same way that the Realm of Dreams is the effect of subconscious dreaming.
In 4E there is no Prime Material Plane; there is the Natural World (or just "the world", no capital letters involved), where most adventurers come from. The world is mirrored by two alternate realities, the Feywild, a brighter, more magical reflection of the world; and the Shadowfell, a darker, more malign, shadow of the world. Above the world is the Astral Sea, realm of the Immortals, including the gods, their angels, and the devils of the Nine Hells, former angels who slew the god they served. Below the world is the Elemental Chaos, home of the Primordials, who fashioned the world out of raw elemental matter; the Elementals; and the Genies (Efreet, Djinn, etc.). Below the Elemental Chaos is the Abyss, a portion of the Elemental Chaos corrupted by Tharizdun, where demons live. That's the whole 4E cosmology in a nut shell.
The Phrenic Planes are discribed in a sidebar in Psionic Power. According to some sages, the Far Realms are not an alien cosmology, but part of a linked group of planes. However this theory is not widely accepted amongst scholars of psionics, and it may very well be debunked in the upcoming article.
Prime is both easier to say and less confusing than simply "the world". Doesn't matter what you call it, a rose by any other name etc.
I don't see why you would need to write all that, but I believe I covered that view of the Phrenic planes in the post just above yours. I can also assure you that I've had more experience with the 4E cosmology than earlier the ones of earlier editions.
The reason why I'm viewing the 4E cosmology as a sort of dualism is because of how the universe itself works. Both the Elemental Chaos and the Astral Sea have their own limitless stockpile of potential beings, and if the gods didn't stand together against the primordials, they wouldn't have won the Dawn War. In addition, all of the chaotic evil deities have more or less cut their ties to the rest of the gods: Lolth lives in the Abyss and has demons as servants (more or less instead of angels); Tharizdun is chained and wants elemental worshippers; and Gruumsh doesn't care about anything other than destruction. However, all the (Lawful/Neutral) Evil deities still have a certain degree of peaceful coexistence with the Unaligned, Good and Lawful Good ones. Ergo, the binding force of the deities must be Law.
As for the Elemental Chaos, I don't think it is nessecary to argue why it should represent Chaos, but anyway: 1) It's its very name; 2) Everything is more or less unstable; and 3) It is ruled mainly by Primordials and Demons, and the only one of those that is not chaotic evil is unaligned and described as "a destructive force of nature" - ergo the old chaotic neutral.
So the Astral Sea >< Elemental Chaos actually fits as a Law >< Chaos dualism, no matter if it isn't stated explicitly in any source material.
This dualism, however, is independent of the "Aligned" cosmology of earlier editions, since it only has two sides. The immortals and the elementals counteract each other in the grand scheme of things, and in that very same way, the Far Realm would also need something to counteract it - otherwise, it would have consumed the entire universe by now. The counterpart could be the natural world, but there have never been any real invasions of the Far Realm on the part of the natural world. And THAT is why it would make sense if the natural world is more of a battlefield between the Far Realm and its counterpart - a counterpart which "touches" creatures in the same way that the Far Realm does, but by expanding their minds and letting them tap into psionic powers by the essence of logic, reason and enlightenment, instead of madness and incomprehensibility. (The Realm of Dreams is then a pseudo-battlefield in the same way, since it is directly affected by the natural world.)
And this is why there is actual need of a third Phrenic plane, exactly as described in Psionic Power. Mechanus would fit the bill in more than one way, because there is also need of a home plane for the modrons. If left unchecked, the Far Realm would simply run rampant, and the forces that currently opposes it - the Living Gate and the psionic classes - have to get their powers from somewhere or something.
>
> As for the Elemental Chaos, I don't think it is nessecary to argue why it
> should represent Chaos,
Stop right there. "Law" and "Chaos" are NOT cosmological forces in 4E. Yes, they were in old-E's Wheel cosmology, but that notion was not carried over to the new one.
The gods maintain their association out of common nature and self-interest, and that's completely independent of their individual alignments.
> And this is why there is actual need of a third Phrenic plane,
No, there is not. By design, the 4E cosmology does not demand that everything be symmetrical, and this was a deliberate break from the old-E Wheel's standard. While some things have a corresponding counterpart, not all of them do (the Abyss, for starters; the Far Realm was not originally expected to have a counterpart either, although it sounds like the recent push to retro-design might be changing that), and those that do have a counterpart aren't necessarily opposed to one another in a cosmological sense. (IE: The Feywild and the Shadowfell contrast one another but they don't have some kind of cosmological opposition going on.)
The reason why I'm viewing the 4E cosmology as a sort of dualism is because of how the universe itself works. Both the Elemental Chaos and the Astral Sea have their own limitless stockpile of potential beings, and if the gods didn't stand together against the primordials, they wouldn't have won the Dawn War. In addition, all of the chaotic evil deities have more or less cut their ties to the rest of the gods: Lolth lives in the Abyss and has demons as servants (more or less instead of angels); Tharizdun is chained and wants elemental worshippers; and Gruumsh doesn't care about anything other than destruction. However, all the (Lawful/Neutral) Evil deities still have a certain degree of peaceful coexistence with the Unaligned, Good and Lawful Good ones. Ergo, the binding force of the deities must be Law.
As for the Elemental Chaos, I don't think it is nessecary to argue why it should represent Chaos, but anyway: 1) It's its very name; 2) Everything is more or less unstable; and 3) It is ruled mainly by Primordials and Demons, and the only one of those that is not chaotic evil is unaligned and described as "a destructive force of nature" - ergo the old chaotic neutral.
So the Astral Sea >< Elemental Chaos actually fits as a Law >< Chaos dualism, no matter if it isn't stated explicitly in any source material.
This dualism, however, is independent of the "Aligned" cosmology of earlier editions, since it only has two sides. The immortals and the elementals counteract each other in the grand scheme of things, and in that very same way, the Far Realm would also need something to counteract it - otherwise, it would have consumed the entire universe by now. The counterpart could be the natural world, but there have never been any real invasions of the Far Realm on the part of the natural world. And THAT is why it would make sense if the natural world is more of a battlefield between the Far Realm and its counterpart - a counterpart which "touches" creatures in the same way that the Far Realm does, but by expanding their minds and letting them tap into psionic powers by the essence of logic, reason and enlightenment, instead of madness and incomprehensibility. (The Realm of Dreams is then a pseudo-battlefield in the same way, since it is directly affected by the natural world.)
I agree with you that there is an aspect of dualism, in the sense that the gods and Primordials oppose each other. Other than that, I feel that you are missing the point. The Primordials hate the gods and will oppose them at every oppurtunity (should they escape their prisons). The reason they hate the gods is that they feel the gods stole their stuff and wouldn't give it back. The Primordials made the world, then they got bored, and turned on Jersey Shore for a few hours. Meanwhile, the gods arrive out of nowhere, see the world and decide to improve it, by making it permanent and beautiful and making lifeforms out of the elemental goop the Primordials used. The Primordials come back to the world (after texting each other about Jersey Shore, and then ordering pizza) and discover the gods have taken the world they made and made it permanent. What's worse, the gods put these little things in the world, and they're multiplying and being fruitful! So the Primordials did what any self-respecting cosmic entity with the intellect and emotional maturity of a six year old would do: they went to war.
The gods were caught flat-footed by the Primordial attack, and had to work hard to win the Dawn War. Only through the cooperation of Good, Lawful Good, Unaligned, Evil and Chaotic Evil could the gods win, since the Primordials had them outnumbered. The Primordials are not Chaotic in the sense of having an alignment. They're Unaligned; they just want to be left alone to make worlds, destroy them, and discuss schmaltzy reality shows over pizza. The gods are the ones with the concepts of ethics and morality; the Primordials are amoral.
Furthermore there is a dividing force, keeping the peace between the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos: the Primal Spirits. They function as the Berlin Wall, keeping the Elementals on one side, the angels, devils, exarchs, etc. on the other.
For the last time, I am NOT making a deduction, I am making an induction. The division into Law and Chaos only happened as a difference between the two previously existing forces of the deities and the primordials. My theory is based on the actual existence and actions of the deities and primordials, and NOT on the assumption that the universe has to be divided into Law and Chaos.
Regarding the Far Realm: If nothing opposed it, it would have overtaken the universe a long time ago, since it is infinite and invasive.
@Prof._Pacali:
The part about the primordials being chaotic is derived from their stat blocks, and from the very first line of Mual-Tar's description. Having moral knowledge is being lawful. Whether or not you act upon it is irrelevant, as long as you place value in it. A berserker who just wants to kill - without knowing whether or not it is right - would be chaotic evil or chaotic neutral, while being amoral. A rogue who has moral knowledge and believes in ethical egoism would be lawful evil or lawful neutral. Both would be doing things that others would classify as chaotic in relation to the law of society.
Again, I really don't see why you would need to recap common knowledge, as I presume that everybody in this thread knows about the Dawn War. Like my response to Neutronium_Dragon in this post, I must remind you that I am interpreting the existence and actions of the immortals and elementals, as they exist in the 4E history and cosmology, and not trying to make it fit an already-defined cosmology - like the Great Wheel. The division into Law and Chaos is an interpretation of the relationship between the deities and the elementals. Think about it in this way: If no deities who live in the Astral Sea are chaotic, no primordials are lawful, and all deities who are chaotic have relations to the Elemental Chaos, it would be correct to conclude that there is an actual Law >< Chaos dualism between the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos. An example: Angels are made up of the very fabric of the Astral Sea, and are inherently lawful, as they know about and follow certain previously-defined rules when serving their masters.