Bel
Possible features (that I'd like to see):
- Detailed but slightly vague timelime. Something like Grand History of FR.
- Detailed descriptions of the deities and major players (think Orcus).
- Random fantastical locations
- Descriptions about previous empires/kingdoms
I'd have to buy that book if it came out.
Major villans? what do you want, you take the time to make them.
Locations, use your imagination. I've got a field of flowers that have been marked by something, I don't know yet. and it glows at night... Anyone who eats one can effectively have light cast on a hand or other body part. Though they taste like crap.
Detailed descriptions of the deities and major players; now you can spend all the time you once used doing the combats and npc write ups on the politics of the heavens. It's up to you to guide how your world is.
Detailed but slightly vague time line; again, take your time. you can do it. it's yours again to do things to it... seriously, there is so much that we can do now...
In 3.x we had Greyhawk that wrapped up a lot of the basic information into history of the world. Now we have the basics that have no solid to draw from. You want that ancient empire... oh look they've given us a name, go ahead and do what you were wanting. Also, now they have the core that they can build campaign worlds around. Now instead of the core book saying x y and z, now you have it saying A B and C, but in this world we have D E and F, that world get's it's own D E and F. The points of light is the least information that you need to make the world work, the rest is up to you.
That's what a DM's job is, to flesh out the rest of the world. It's quite literally your character. You don't see something saying, "well this is how you roleplay this character," do you? The World is the DM's job, and learn to love the freedom, it's great. This is when great stories will be made.
That's my guess.
While not technically a Campaign Setting, they could release a sourcebook for Points of Light.
Possible features (that I'd like to see):
- Detailed but slightly vague timelime. Something like Grand History of FR.
- Detailed descriptions of the deities and major players (think Orcus).
- Random fantastical locations
- Descriptions about previous empires/kingdoms
I'd have to buy that book if it came out.
That would be great
http://www.goodman-games.com/4380preview.html
I have the DMG, Keep on the Shadowfell, and Thunderspire and they don’t reflect any difference in theme or mood from the previous editions. On the other hand, if I crack open Vampire: The Requiem or the V:tR Storytelleer’s Guide, I get detailed information on the theme and mood, as well as how to pass that feeling on to my players.
For me, Points of Light isn’t even a concept right now, it’s more of a catch-phrase that no one bothered to pass on to the writing department.
My current campaign is based in the POL setting but has nothing to do with any of the pre-made adventures, or the town in the DMG, though they may turn up later. I took the idea of the last great human civilization found a valley in the mountains of the north (using the map from "The Shattered Gates Of Slaughtergarde") They were going to keep all the culture and knowledge of the old kingdom hidden from the forces that would undo the kingdom. But before they could finish the doors at the edge of the valley were shut, and unable to be opened without the key... and no one knows what the key is. So now they are dealing with Goblin raiders from the surrounding mountains, and in a few levels (open paragon tier, or just at the end of Heroic) they will have to fight the Orc horde waiting on the other side of the gates, once they open them. Then they get to go and adventure in the full POL setting.
There I put some history and context, but it's mine, and that what the setting is designed for... for the DM to do some ground work. I love it.
That's because the DM is suppose to insert that, not take it from the book...
That makes no sense. How can a DM insert something that hasn't been explained? Why is there no help provided for DMs who want to insert it? If the DM can't take it from the book, where does she get it?
Pop open the Eberron 3.5 setting book. It says Eberron is "Pulp Fantasy" it then does into detail on what that means and how it differs from common fantasy tropes. Throughout the book, it backs up those themes and creates a setting with a specific flavor. Open a World of Darkness book. It tells you if the game is 'dread and horror' or 'decadent corruption' or 'savage battles for an already lost war.' It then goes on to explain what that means and how a ST can convey that feeling to the players. It gives you no names and locations, but it gives you atmosphere.
A handful of place names is not an atmosphere, and nothing I've seen in the published materials indicates any deviation from the same mood and themes of the previous editions.
And I’m sorry, but when I pick up a premade adventure in the core, Points of Light setting, I should not then have to insert the concept of Points of Light.
Now, I understand that you ‘get it’ and I don’t. I understand that you haven’t had any trouble understanding the concept and inserting it into your games. It’s very likely that you’re a better DM that I am as I have very little experience with DnD.
However, I *don’t get it.* I *want help* but the DMG and the two adventures I have *gives me none.*
I wish that they had dropped the entire Points of Light concept and just said they’re providing you with mechanics and some generic fantasy adventures. I’d have still bought the damn things but I and my players would not be looking forward to an experience the game doesn’t provide. Instead, I find myself searching the web and these message boards for help hoping someone else will pick up the ball the author's dropped.
That makes no sense. How can a DM insert something that hasn't been explained? Why is there no help provided for DMs who want to insert it? If the DM can't take it from the book, where does she get it?
My reaction has changed from when I first read this, So FYI that's a little confrontational for a starting paragraph, but having read the rest of this I see that your just frustrated and I hadn't provided a good answer for you, that's cool and understandable.
It's easy, the DM uses his Imagination. Look, D&D and fantasy in general is the base genre, however what your looking for is genre sub-tropes, or sub-genre's in particular.
D&D 4e's genre is Fantasy, it's sub genre is High Adventure, or Epic Adventure. A DM get's it from the whole attitude talked of in the DMG and PHB, Lots of HP, "try to say yes", Page 42, etc.
To Quote Hero Games: Fantasy Hero, on the elements of Epic Fantasy:
Epic Fantasy stories and game campaigns feature grand, romantic, monumental stories of the heroes’ struggle against a vast, and often overwhelmingly powerful, enemy. Like Crossworlds Fantasy, Epic Fantasy is in many ways a meta-subgenre; your Fantasy Hero campaign could tell an
Epic Low Fantasy story, Epic High Fantasy story, or the like.
Pop open the Eberron 3.5 setting book. It says Eberron is "Pulp Fantasy" it then does into detail on what that means and how it differs from common fantasy tropes. Throughout the book, it backs up those themes and creates a setting with a specific flavor. Open a World of Darkness book. It tells you if the game is 'dread and horror' or 'decadent corruption' or 'savage battles for an already lost war.' It then goes on to explain what that means and how a ST can convey that feeling to the players. It gives you no names and locations, but it gives you atmosphere.
Those games have all of that written for you, that's what they're about. In the POL setting you are getting just enough so that you don't have to create everything. You have a pantheon, you have some towns, and you have a generic history for everyone. You even have a system that tells you how each class receives their power sources, so that you can determine a bit of cause and effect, this helps in the generic sense so that you don't have to deal with that. "where does the power for magic come from?" And then as a DM you don't have to come up with a witty answer (even though if you don't like that it's powered from the "other realm" then you can re-arrange it, because nothings written in stone to get in your way) on the spot, they have done it for you.
You also get some towns and even a empire or 3 with their generic history so that you don't have to search your mind for what empire this item came from, or what story that bard in the corner is singing about. The sub-genre elements that your talking about it open to anything you want. They have left it open so you can do anything.
Want to do dark brooding- read some books that have the feel you want (watch Vampire Hunter-D, Read Midnight, Read some HP lovecraft, Read Vampire Dark ages, Read Ann rice, Read Michal Moorcock, Read some Ravenloft). This will help you get the feeling your looking for.
Want to do Heroic Sweeping Fantasy- Find elements of the same from similar source material.
Hero and Gurps are both very good gaming books that, though they're made for one system, they can be quite useful for research.
WoTC has left most of that out, so that we (the DM's) can insert what we want, as opposed to being forced to do a lot of conversion, if we want a different one that the writers selected.
A handful of place names is not an atmosphere, and nothing I've seen in the published materials indicates any deviation from the same mood and themes of the previous editions.
As is the case in most of the previous editions, you get to make it up. The pre-made CS's are all about giving you these things, but This is really all about trying to make the DM's job easier. EG if you've got a campaign in mind, but none of the pre-released material is good for what you want, you can use the core settings and then develop what type of High Fantasy you want.
And I’m sorry, but when I pick up a premade adventure in the core, Points of Light setting, I should not then have to insert the concept of Points of Light.
It sounds like a lot of the games you have played (sounds also mostly like White Wolf, who are very good at atmosphere) are very atmosphere based. But the Core D&D atmosphere is kicking butt... that said, you need to develop the atmosphere you want to put into it. Sure the WW books didn't give you cities and country names, nor mortals political climates, because it's in OUR WORLD. so all they truly had to do was sell an atmosphere. What you have here is the opposite, you have the atmosphere in mind, and they give you names and towns, etc.
Now, I understand that you ‘get it’ and I don’t. I understand that you haven’t had any trouble understanding the concept and inserting it into your games. It’s very likely that you’re a better DM that I am as I have very little experience with DnD.
Better DM's depend on the players, I have been told that I am what some DM's should aim for by some players, and (this year even) had some leave my game because I "didn't get it." So don't think about that nonsense, you just don't have enough "xp to level in DMing D&D", so to say. I'm just a dude, that won't let the make-believe part of my youth go, and so just needs a release.
However, I *don’t get it.* I *want help* but the DMG and the two adventures I have *gives me none.*
You have been raised on a very RP rich set of games... where the combat and power leveling options are not so focused on as the depth of your character, and how he interacts with the world. The Base D&D experience is all about having fun while killing things and taking their stuff... if you want to do more (as in most other editions of this game) you'll have to do a lot of that legwork yourself. I know some groups that leave RP out entirely, speak out of character much, if not all, of the time. Others who are so immersive that they hardly fight once a month. But for D&D as far as the core books go, they let both options open without forcing you to go in one direction or another.
I wish that they had dropped the entire Points of Light concept and just said they’re providing you with mechanics and some generic fantasy adventures. I’d have still bought the damn things but I and my players would not be looking forward to an experience the game doesn’t provide. Instead, I find myself searching the web and these message boards for help hoping someone else will pick up the ball the author's dropped.
Look at the POL setting more of a time saving tool (a concept that they wanted to do) without railroading the DM's work. Look at any of the open ended rp style books, D&D, Rolemaster, Hero, GURPS, etc. They are a good source for some of what your looking for. Because D&D4e is just out the box (just one month old now) there is very little "support" is how to do it at this point. I'm sure there will be later, but for now there are the older editions that you can pull from, as well as a huge collection of games that have done the same thing. And of course from these and enWorld's forums, given you don't get slammed by someone right out the box.
Don't think of it as they aren't selling you what you think you should get, think of it as they are leaving it open so that you can do what you want.
With this system I can run KOtS for many different groups.
group A- a bunch of WOW gamers I'm trying to pull away from the computer for a second.
The time in town, is very downplayed, the combats tend to take over the session, one session went by without a fight, and they were upset they couldn't get to the "game" that session.
group B- Long time Rpers who came from the White Wolf era
Spend almost the entire time in town talking with and working with the people in the town, working on the underlying themes of darkness creeping into the realm, the fights punctuated the situation, showing how close the darkness was to reaching the light of culture.
If you want to use it in that sense, try looking at some WHFRP (War Hammer Fantasy Role Play). They have a very very POL setting. The darkness of inhumanity is creeping in on the light of the goodly races (but there are no epic heroes to save that world, it's pretty much going to drown in it's own blood, no hope of survival, just war).
Has this helped more?