Now let's cross fingers!
In my experience, players don't reliably remember numbers that change from round to round like that. They want to be able to just glance at their character sheet and know that the defenses listed there are the right values, not have to think back to what they did last turn and whether they've still got their buckler strapped to their arm, or their parrying dagger in-hand, or whether they swapped them out to use their garotte or their blowpipe.
Also, Quick Swap does not work with a light shield, because it's not a weapon (although, it arguably would work with a spiked shield). So any assassin who ever uses two-handed weapons (i.e. a blowpipe or garotte) will never want to bother with a light shield. Spending a standard action to equip or unequip the shield will never, ever be worthwhile. It's just a useless piece of equipment for an assassin who is actually functioning the way this build is meant to function. It gets in the way of the flexibility and adaptability the executioner assassin is supposed to exemplify.
Both shields and parrying daggers introduce the problem I call "yo-yo defenses", since assassins want to be swapping their weapons around depending on what power they are using. Keeping track of different AC and Ref values depending on what attack you've just used is an unnecessary pain in the behind.
In my experience, players don't reliably remember numbers that change from round to round like that. They want to be able to just glance at their character sheet and know that the defenses listed there are the right values, not have to think back to what they did last turn and whether they've still got their buckler strapped to their arm, or their parrying dagger in-hand, or whether they swapped them out to use their garotte or their blowpipe.
Also, Quick Swap does not work with a light shield, because it's not a weapon (although, it arguably would work with a spiked shield). So any assassin who ever uses two-handed weapons (i.e. a blowpipe or garotte) will never want to bother with a light shield. Spending a standard action to equip or unequip the shield will never, ever be worthwhile. It's just a useless piece of equipment for an assassin who is actually functioning the way this build is meant to function. It gets in the way of the flexibility and adaptability the executioner assassin is supposed to exemplify.
Great, I hadn't thought about the matter from this perspective. Since in my feedback I included a link to this thread, I hope they'll also read this and come to the conclusion that the "shadow armor" option is the best. Both to add some shadow flair to this new build that everybody sees as way more martial than shadow, and to solve the problem of "yo-yo defences". However, the Quick Weapon swap would also make the Parrying Dagger option even more right than it already is. So in case they don't want to add another class feature like this Shadow Armor, I hope they realize that Parrying Daggers are way better than shields no matter how much vintage is considered sexy...
I don't actually agree that the assassin needs any feature at all. As a dex primary with leather or better he's right up with the rogue and Dex-ranger builds (if anything the Str-ranger would need one).
Monk and avenger have features because they're restricted to cloth (the designers admitted that giving leather/hide to avenger brought them above their wanted AC values for strikers) and the barbarian because he hadn't Dex as primary or secondary
Assuming 18 Primary stat, 16 secondary stat, 12 tertiary stat builds
Assassin 18 Dex and leather: AC 16
Monk 18 Dex and cloth: AC 16
Avenger 16 Dex and cloth: AC 16
Rogue 18 Dex and leather: AC 16
ranged Ranger 18 Dex and hide: AC 17
melee Ranger 12 Dex and hide: AC 14
Barbarian 12 Dex and hide: AC 15
I don't actually agree that the assassin needs any feature at all. As a dex primary with leather or better he's right up with the rogue and Dex-ranger builds (if anything the Str-ranger would need one).
Monk and avenger have features because they're restricted to cloth (the designers admitted that giving leather/hide to avenger brought them above their wanted AC values for strikers) and the barbarian because he hadn't Dex as primary or secondary
Assuming 18 Primary stat, 16 secondary stat, 12 tertiary stat builds
Assassin 18 Dex and leather: AC 16
Monk 18 Dex and cloth: AC 16
Avenger 16 Dex and cloth: AC 16
Rogue 18 Dex and leather: AC 16
ranged Ranger 18 Dex and hide: AC 17
melee Ranger 12 Dex and hide: AC 14
Barbarian 12 Dex and hide: AC 15
In this case, the best option remains proficiency in parrying dagger: you have a defensive option, and it is both thematically fitting and mechanically not as powerful as a class bonus.
The shield seems wildly unpopular for an assassin. Honestly shields dont work with Assassin flavor. When theyr hiding, they dont need the AC, and when theyr striking it gets in the way.
The parring dagger is a clever idea. It works thematically and seems friendly to the martial class foundation that the designers seem to have in mind. Just like the assassin swaps different weapons for different tasks, the parrying dagger would be one weapon whose task is AC.
I can support the parrying dagger, at the same time, I want to see more done with the psionic, elemental, and shadow power sources. I suppose there can be other Assassin builds or subclasses that are purely shadow, without any martial flavor. These then would suit the 'shadow armor' - possibly achieved by a form of insubstantial, so weapons 'miss' by passing thru, possibly using the partial-concealment mechanic. Then again, shadow armor seems about twice as popular as the parrying dagger. So maybe a choice a between a martial option and a magical shadow is in order for the Executioner subclass too.
By the way, WotC needs to officially call these Essential formats a 'subclass'. Theyr not the same thing as a separate class, nor are they the same thing as a new build.
Can we have a vote to get rid of that javelin. Those weapon assemblages make little sense.Another thing that seems to contradict the thematic flavor for me: why does the Assassin have a power that casts an illusion? LOL! Maybe the Barbarian should get powers to cast illusions too. Not only does it seem the odd power out from the Assassin class, it seems to be odd with the shadow power source too. Unlike in previous editions, in D&D 4e, the shadow source corresponds to the realm of death, the Shadowfell. 'Shadow' magic is death magic, necromancy and ghostwalking. I can understand the psionic power source doing illusions because of mind-affecting phantasms and the dream manifestations of the new Shaper Psion build. That said, the designers also make illusion an arcane thing, with the Tome Wizard build and the Illusion Mage Wizard build. Having this Assassin class do one illusion seems cheesy and devoid of streamlining. If every power source can do exactly the same thing in the same way, then we would really need to get rid of power sources from the D&D game because they would become a useless and unnecessary complication.
Heres something I could see an Assassin doing. Dominate Ghost. After assassinating a target, the Assassin seizes control of the targets ghost, dominates it, and manifests it. Then makes the ghost behave in certain limited ways to convince the allies of the target that nothing is wrong. So the Assassin can escape without detection. This power wouldnt be an illusion, but a flavorful use of necromancy appropriate to the shadow source.
Yea, I don't agree. I vote the javelin stays. It adds something original to the build/class. Reminds me of the combative style of the Aeil from the Wheel of Time series.
Another thing that seems to contradict the thematic flavor for me: why does the Assassin have a power that casts an illusion? LOL! Maybe the Barbarian should get powers to cast illusions too. Not only does it seem the odd power out from the Assassin class, it seems to be odd with the shadow power source too. Unlike in previous editions, in D&D 4e, the shadow source corresponds to the realm of death, the Shadowfell. 'Shadow' magic is death magic, necromancy and ghostwalking. I can understand the psionic power source doing illusions because of mind-affecting phantasms and the dream manifestations of the new Shaper Psion build. That said, the designers also make illusion an arcane thing, with the Tome Wizard build and the Illusion Mage Wizard build. Having this Assassin class do one illusion seems cheesy and devoid of streamlining. If every power source can do exactly the same thing in the same way, then we would really need to get rid of power sources from the D&D game because they would become a useless and unnecessary complication.
Heres something I could see an Assassin doing. Dominate Ghost. After assassinating a target, the Assassin seizes control of the targets ghost, dominates it, and manifests it. Then makes the ghost behave in certain limited ways to convince the allies of the target that nothing is wrong. So the Assassin can escape without detection. This power wouldnt be an illusion, but a flavorful use of necromancy appropriate to the shadow source.
I don't agree with this either. Illusion has had a longstanding place within the shadow power source. The shadow power source includes the ability to manipulate the reality of shadows, creating images out of shadow that look as real as anything in the real world; in other words, creating illusions. This is why the last assassin (pre-E build) got one build which focused on creating shadow effects with the fear and illusion keywords. This is why there are a number of assassin related feats (from the first assassin article) that grant bonuses based on the use of illusion keyword powers. Saying that illusion makes no sense in the shadow power source is like saying "psychic" keyword powers have no place in the psionic power source.
Yea, I don't agree. I vote the javelin stays. It adds something original to the build/class. Reminds me of the combative style of the Aeil from the Wheel of Time series.
It seems appropriate if the javelin goes to the League of Whispers. The League of Whispers has all the ranged weapons, like blowgun, bolos, etc. The League of Whispers doesnt have any melee weapons.
I vote the Javelin stays right where it is. I also vote that if one handed military weapons are not on the proficiency list, that the Scimitar gets added, to keep with the mid-east/eastern flavor.
Eh... I wouldn't want to pigeonhole this class like that. I prefer allowing it to keep the one handed military melee weapons, and allowing players to choose which weapon they want to use. I mean, maybe a player is building the class with a ninja instead of a hashashim in mind... right now, the class seems equally well suited to either. I would hate to change that.
It would, however, be pretty damn cool to have a new set of guild weapons that included the scimitar.
Then again, I would LOVE to see a new article that included a whole list of new guild sets of weapons and at-will powers, include one that katers to the Athasian Bard theme via a set of Athasian weapons (such as the bard's friend and the wristrazors).
Note: As I was writing this, I noticed that each at-will is based off the 4 additional proficiencies given by choosing a guild. So well, okay, I'm less worried about a guideline, and more about just more choices for guild builds. Also more poisons. I just wonder what the full... version of this is going be like in november.
Edit: Look at Red Scales, it says it grants proficiency with unarmed attack. What exactly is that proficiency bonus and damage? Considering unarmed is considered an improvised weapon... it does a d4 and no... bonus? Or did they mean an equivalent to the monk unarmed strike? That needs some clarification.
The avenger was forced to give up leather because it was anit-thematic not because ac was too high. Notice that as soon as they did that they putt out unarmored agility which gave them the exact same ac as leather. That said I do not think that assassins need the extra ac all the time. It is a nice option but they have alright ac if they want and can pick up hide if wanted. This class want to hit hard and fade it is not a one on one toe to toe warrior like the avenger or a jump into the middle of a pack of enemies like amonk.
The problem wasn't "Avenger in Leather" AC, it was "Avenger in HIDE, + Hide specialization" since there's no such thing as Leather or Cloth Specialization feats. The nerf brought Avengers down from craziness to perfectly reasonable. Unarmored Agility wasn't just about Avengers, EVERY cloth class was upgrading to Leather at some point in their build since 1 feat for 2 AC was fantastic.
Regardless the assassin is really more of an issue for this thread. Does the assassin really need an extra ac booster on default. Shield proficiency allows them to take extra defenses if they want. A parrying dagger would be very unusual in design and a shadow ac ability I think would be too much for a character not designed to tank in any way like a monk or avenger does. This class is supposed to be more like the rogue and when a rogue tanks you need to put effort into it.
These aren't the best images, just the best I could find.
The thing about an assassin, is that you want to... be in an actual fight very long, which goes against the idea of being an assassin. Which is not a strange thing if you're working in a group. Or being an adventurer in general. I think it would need that Avenger or Monk AC like boost, cause you would need to be general combat - I'm sure somehow or another you or your group will surrounded or at least in a disadvantage where you can't slink away.
Innocuous Posture
Once per round, as a minor action, you may make a bluff check to appear as a non-threat, a lesser threat, or another deception to avert enemy attantion. Until you attack or take another hostile action, or until the end of your next turn, you effectively have concealment against any enemies whose passive insight score you match with your bluff check. If you already have concealment from another source, you instead gain total concealment from this feature.
It's a use for their charisma secondary, flavorful, and it also helps them hide in combat, which they need.
Clouded Visage Assassin Utility
Encounter; Shadow, Illusion
Minor Action Close Burst 10
Target: Enemies in burst
Effect: Make a Bluff check with a +5 power bonus; any creature that does not match your bluff check with thier passive insight check, considers you effectively not there. While you are not invisible, nor have concealment, they will not attack you, unless you attack or take a hostile action.
Special: If your allies are attacking or are hostile, you do not gain the +5 power bonus.
Maybe that's too good? It's sort of like acting like wall. You aren't exactly invisible, but you aren't exactly a target either.
Yea, I don't agree. I vote the javelin stays. It adds something original to the build/class. Reminds me of the combative style of the Aeil from the Wheel of Time series.Another thing that seems to contradict the thematic flavor for me: why does the Assassin have a power that casts an illusion? LOL! Maybe the Barbarian should get powers to cast illusions too. Not only does it seem the odd power out from the Assassin class, it seems to be odd with the shadow power source too. Unlike in previous editions, in D&D 4e, the shadow source corresponds to the realm of death, the Shadowfell. 'Shadow' magic is death magic, necromancy and ghostwalking. I can understand the psionic power source doing illusions because of mind-affecting phantasms and the dream manifestations of the new Shaper Psion build. That said, the designers also make illusion an arcane thing, with the Tome Wizard build and the Illusion Mage Wizard build. Having this Assassin class do one illusion seems cheesy and devoid of streamlining. If every power source can do exactly the same thing in the same way, then we would really need to get rid of power sources from the D&D game because they would become a useless and unnecessary complication.
Heres something I could see an Assassin doing. Dominate Ghost. After assassinating a target, the Assassin seizes control of the targets ghost, dominates it, and manifests it. Then makes the ghost behave in certain limited ways to convince the allies of the target that nothing is wrong. So the Assassin can escape without detection. This power wouldnt be an illusion, but a flavorful use of necromancy appropriate to the shadow source.
I don't agree with this either. Illusion has had a longstanding place within the shadow power source. The shadow power source includes the ability to manipulate the reality of shadows, creating images out of shadow that look as real as anything in the real world; in other words, creating illusions. This is why the last assassin (pre-E build) got one build which focused on creating shadow effects with the fear and illusion keywords. This is why there are a number of assassin related feats (from the first assassin article) that grant bonuses based on the use of illusion keyword powers. Saying that illusion makes no sense in the shadow power source is like saying "psychic" keyword powers have no place in the psionic power source.
I agree, Illusions and Shadow Magic have gone together since the First Edition.
Illusion is a *mind-affecting* effect. It belongs to the psionic power source. The phantasm is identical to 'false sensory input'. The 'glamor' is identical to the dream manifestation of the Shaper Psion: a telekinetic manipulation of quasi-real force and radiant light. Like a Star Trek holodeck. Illusion is purely a mental effect and has little to do with necromantic death magic nor ghostwalking Shadowjaunt.
The ill-defined 'Shadow' plane of previous editions has little to do with the death realm of the Shadowfell plane of 4e.
Yeah, Illusions and the Negative Energy plane have gone together since ... never.
Illusion is a *mind-affecting* effect. It belongs to the psionic power source. The phantasm is identical to 'false sensory input'. The 'glamor' is identical to the dream manifestation of the Shaper Psion: a telekinetic manipulation of quasi-real force and radiant light. Like a Star Trek holodeck. Illusion is purely a mental effect and has little to do with necromantic death magic nor ghostwalking Shadowjaunt.
The ill-defined 'Shadow' plane of previous editions has little to do with the death realm of the Shadowfell plane of 4e.
You are, plain and simply, wrong. The negative energy plane is not the shadowfell. The shadowfell is some weird approximation of the ideas that used to compose both the old plane of shadow, the negative energy plane, and the demiplane of dread. The shadowfell does have various mind affecting abilities (in fact, we know that there will be a deck of dread to represent the plane's affect on the minds of adventurers that dwell in it for too long). Since day one the shadow power source has been described as a power source used both to manipulate the reality of shadows, the images shadows produce (and the reality of those images), and necromantic energies. Since the very first assassin class build was released the class's capabilities were filled with illusions. I am sorry if you don't like that. I am sorry if your opinion is that the power source should only represent powers that deal with death. But the fact of the matter is, it doesn't. It takes its inspiration both from necromancy and illusion. Such older spells from earlier editions that manipulated the stuff of shadows to create illusions (that often had very real effects) have had a heavy influence on the way the shadow power source has been introduced in this edition of the game. What is more, whatever your opinion (and I respect that your opinion on what should be true might be different from mine), my opinion is that I like it the way it is. The word "shadow" just doesn't make a good name for a power source that in no way, shape, or form, has anything to do with anything except for necromancy. On the other hand, using the word shadow to evoke a heteroglossic dialogue that references both shadows as the stuff in which ghosts (and other undead) hide (and, in this case, come from) and the use of shadows to create puppet imagery seems very appropriate, interesting, and most importantly fun, to me.
Yeah, Illusions and the Negative Energy plane have gone together since ... never.
Illusion is a *mind-affecting* effect. It belongs to the psionic power source. The phantasm is identical to 'false sensory input'. The 'glamor' is identical to the dream manifestation of the Shaper Psion: a telekinetic manipulation of quasi-real force and radiant light. Like a Star Trek holodeck. Illusion is purely a mental effect and has little to do with necromantic death magic nor ghostwalking Shadowjaunt.
The ill-defined 'Shadow' plane of previous editions has little to do with the death realm of the Shadowfell plane of 4e.
You may note the capitalization of Shadow Magic in my post. Shadow Magic (along with the lower-level Demi-Shadow Magic) was an Illusionist spell from AD&D. Back in the days when Illusionist was a sub-class of Magic-user, Paladin was a sub-class of Fighter, and Druid was a sub-class of Cleric. (But we can't possibly have a former sub-class belonging to a different power source...)
A shield, especially a light shield, doesn't always have to be a wedge of metal strapped to the arm. It can instead be highly stylized and very thematic with just a little exercise of the principle that fluff is mutable. Way back when the 4e Assassin class premiered someone posted a wonderful image of such a 'shield' that forever convinced me that there was no problem with shield carrying Assassins. I've never again been able to find that particular image, and it's so far back that my attempts at archive diving have been equally unsuccessful.
These aren't the best images, just the best I could find.
Yes forearm plates even those used realistically (hence fairly easily hidden)
as light shields or parrying weapons, are certainly valid assassin/ninja trappings
Wicked imagerty like the scorpion ones you present really yank them in to fantasy
flavor... in other words ... loving it!!!!!.
The shadow power source relates thematically to the realm of the dead, Shadowfell.
The change of the Assassin from a shadow class to a martial class appears to be part of a systematic attempt to sabotage the viability of the shadow power source.
Possibly the motive is to guarantee that the arcane Wizard class (that now includes the shadow Necromancer as a Wizard build) is the best and coolest class at everything. There cant even be such thing as a shadow Necromancer class that might be better than the Wizard class - not even at necromancy.
And yet almost all of the Executioner's shadow spells are illusions, the 1e/2e Illusionist had several shadow spells, and the Essentials Illusionist has several shadow spells.
(Not that this'll stop people, but at least it's a start.)
...a systematic attempt to sabotage the viability of the shadow power source...guarantee that the arcane Wizard class...is the best and coolest class at everything. There cant even be such thing as a shadow Necromancer class that might be better than the Wizard class - not even at necromancy.
Shouldn't you be watching Glenn Beck or reading the Enquirer, or something?
Keep the shield, because anybody who gets bonus damage on every weapon attack should be discouraged from seeking out multi-attack powers, which typically require two weapons. It's a balance thing.
(Not that this'll stop people, but at least it's a start.)
Yea. It is also a nice start to discouraging assassin's to take weapon powers that require the ability to wield a single weapon with both hands. You know, weapon powers like garrote strangle or precision shot... you know, the assassin attack powers. It also prevents assassins from using such two handed weapons that they get a class proficiency with, such as the shortbow or crossbow.
Giving the assassin the shield is, plain and simply, and example of terrible design. The new assassin, over all, is amazing. But that shield proficiency is a bit of a black mark on that.
The shadow power source relates thematically to the realm of the dead, Shadowfell.
The change of the Assassin from a shadow class to a martial class appears to be part of a systematic attempt to sabotage the viability of the shadow power source.
Possibly the motive is to guarantee that the arcane Wizard class (that now includes the shadow Necromancer as a Wizard build) is the best and coolest class at everything. There cant even be such thing as a shadow Necromancer class that might be better than the Wizard class - not even at necromancy.
And yet almost all of the Executioner's shadow spells are illusions, the 1e/2e Illusionist had several shadow spells, and the Essentials Illusionist has several shadow spells.
The Essentials illusionist has spells with the Shadow Keyword?
The Essentials illusionist has spells with the Shadow Keyword?
No, they have spells called "Shade Spell" and "Phantasm Spell" (or something like that) which are clear call backs to the shadow spells of Illusionists in earlier editions. The spells don't have to have the Shadow keyword to have the connection.