Regardless of the path they chose, people will complain. For all you hardcore fans out there, what powers, abilities, and characteristics would you like to see in the ninja and/or vampire? Should vampires be a race or a class? How might ninja and vampires be made like Naruto or Twilight without overpowering them? Maybe this isn't as big of a problem for ninja as it is for vampires, but I'm curious as to what everyone thinks. What other popular D&D characters have been changed by pop culture? Thanks in advance for your thoughts and insights.
Without a doubt, Masashi Kishimoto and Stephenie Meyer have created new ways that ninja and vampires are perceived respectively. Their creations are not foreign to what we already knew and loved, but more specialized. I think that WotC is now challenged in remaking these characters for fourth edition. Will they make the ninja in a way that Naruto fans can imitate the show or the vampire so Twilight fans can imitate the book? Will they make it so such imitation is impossible? Will they hit a middle ground where some things transfer from the series, but fans of the classic characters won't feel they've changed too much?
Regardless of the path they chose, people will complain. For all you hardcore fans out there, what powers, abilities, and characteristics would you like to see in the ninja and/or vampire? Should vampires be a race or a class? How might ninja and vampires be made like Naruto or Twilight without overpowering them? Maybe this isn't as big of a problem for ninja as it is for vampires, but I'm curious as to what everyone thinks. What other popular D&D characters have been changed by pop culture? Thanks in advance for your thoughts and insights.
I think WotC should revise their vampires so that they glitter in the sun also.
I think WotC should revise their vampires so that they glitter in the sun also.
Would that mean looking at a vampire causes radiant damage instead of said vampire having a weakness to it?
I think WotC should revise their vampires so that they glitter in the sun also.
Would that mean looking at a vampire causes radiant damage instead of said vampire having a weakness to it?
Actually, in the first true novelization of the Vampire legends, Carmilla, by J.S. Le Fanu, the vampire in question, the title character, was able to walk in daylight, just not high noon, and in Drcula, he is able to walk about London in sunlight (Stoker drew much of his lore about the Vampire as being inhumanly beautiful when well fed from Le Fanu's work, as Carmilla was a lesbian succubus of sorts and Stoker, as a fellow Irish writer had access to the earlier work). Only later adaptations made the Vampire susceptible to sunlight. Generally speaking, the undead of world mythology are more upset by sunlight than scared of it, and use the cover of darkness to their advantage.
As for Naruto being a Ninja, well that is like calling a NASCAR driver a charioteer. Both race in laps around a track, but one took great skill (the charioteer) while the other is mostly flash. A student of nijitsu would laugh at the idea of Naruto being a Ninja. For WoTC to make a Ninja class based upon Naruto rather than the legends of ninja of Feudal Japan would be a travesty. Of course, if you wat to play such a class, homebrew one. Keep the anime in aname and traditional legends gleened from real-world myths in D&D. There's plenty of other games based upon anime RP out there that WoTC doesn't need to muck up D&D.
The ninja should have at least one build oriented towards anime style fighting, and another build with a more classic flavor. Many of the powers of course could work well for either build, so it allows the player to decide exactly what sort of ninja he wants to play.
If you really want a Naruto class reflavour the swordmage class or something to that effect. Some things from the show could not be done because it would overpower the class Swordmages with reflavouring is probably the best you'll get.
Prior to Naruto, the mental image most Westerners (and especially Americans) of what a ninja could do was heavily influenced by American produced 80's live action martial arts movies and Ninja Turtles. People who grew up with this mental image often (but not always) have a hard time reconciling with the more fantastic version presented in Naruto.
But claiming that Naruto's abilities; like the ability to jump through mirrors an infinite number of times, at a million miles an hour, while killing everything in sight... to be merely "fantastic" is frankly bull crap.
Clones, substitutions, attack and movement speed, etc are taken to ridiculous extremes in naruto. Yes, some of what they do is a part of the ninja mythos, but it pales in comparison to what happens in Naruto on an episodic basis. If someone were to say that Naruto is a good telling of the ninja mythos it would be like saying that DBZ is a good telling of the martial artist/monk mythos.
Naruto is just a half-step away from DBZ's: "I can wang slap the earth and it will explode. All I need to do is scream really loudly, while standing still for 10 minutes and I can blow up the galaxy. Who rulez?!!"
As far as twilight and vampires are concerned; I'm a bit more ambivalent. Vampires can't be as supernaturally powerful as they are without some spectacular (read supernatural) vulnerabilities. If a vampire could just straight walk up to random people and dominate them by looking them in the eyes (and there were no real vulnerabilities), then why isn't the world run by vampires?
So tone down the vampire's powers and weaknesses together? Plausible and would have to think on it further. I don't have any visceral dislike of this idea. But Naruto and DBZ need to stay the **** away from D&D like the plague.
MTF
I think vampires should be handled as a multi-class only class, like the spellscarred. They could easily include a range of vampire themed powers that range from classic to new styles.
I agree. If you made it a class you could not have vampire wizards and vampire warriors, but only one or the other or a weird mix of the two. A race would be even sillier, probably meaning that only humans could become vampires. The spellscarred solution looks to me like it would work beautifully for the vampire as well.
As far as twilight and vampires are concerned; I'm a bit more ambivalent. Vampires can't be as supernaturally powerful as they are without some spectacular (read supernatural) vulnerabilities. If a vampire could just straight walk up to random people and dominate them by looking them in the eyes (and there were no real vulnerabilities), then why isn't the world run by vampires?
Who's to say it isn't run by vampires?
Auth: I think vampires should be handled as a multi-class only class, like the spellscarred.
Good idea. Multiclass is a great mechanic to handle things like the Vampire. Much better than an addon template.
Defacto, swapping powers creates different kinds of vampires, depending on which vampire powers a player chooses. The variety is nice too.
On a personal note, I think Iv outgrown my fascination with vampires. Iv always liked the mystical aspects of the vampire, but never got into the gore aspects. Recently, I saw a movie that portrayed the vampire as a non-magical serial killer (albeit hard to kill) - and I found it absurd. Similarly, when the I heard about the new Twilight movie, I was excited because I thought it was about mages, and was actually disappointed when I learned it was about vampires.
Anyway, Il always have a soft spot for vampires. I like having D&D do them well mechanically. Multiclass is a great idea.
When the Players Handbook with the Ki power source finally comes out, it should include certain Martial classes as well. The PH should dedicate several pages to the Ninja concept, but all it is is a Rogue build. The PH should simply recommend which Tactic, skills, powers, and feats a Rogue should choose to represent a historically accurate Japanese Ninja. The PH should also dedicate some space for how to play a Ninja archetype without any Asian flavor for non-Asian campaign settings.
The more mystical legends about Ninja should be represented separately, thru multiclassing and especially thru Paragon Paths. But here too, the PH needs to include non-Asian concepts along with the Japanese concepts.
Similarly, the Samurai is a strictly Martial class, which should also appear in the same PH as the Ki classes.
Ki classes should probably specialize in aura effects.
I don't go for these Anne Rice, Buffy, Twilight, etc etc etc tragic angsty pretty boys.
As for D&D and the ninja, it's a rogue, especially the new acrobatic rogue build in Martial Power. For the more 'Naruto' style powers that'd be just paragon paths to specialize in different styles.
As for vampires, I'd say make it either a multiclass feat or a paragon path. Honestly a vampire shouldn't be allowed at level 1 and really shouldn't be something you just tack on without a storyline element. Also the 4e vampires are pretty interesting already. I did like the 'glittery' aspect to the vampires in Twilight but it's hardly new. As stated Bram Stoker's Dracula could walk in sunlight and in much of the folklore of vampires around the world they could walk in sunlight, though often with reduced powers (or none). Some even had a 'werewolf' plight of being human during the day with no memory or knowledge of what they did at night when 'sleeping'.
It seems that vampires are much more popular among D&D players than ninja. I understand that most of the western concept of the ninja is covered in the rogue class. Even some of the more fantastic abilities seen in games like Tenchu or Ninja Gaiden could be found in the rogue repertoire, but the kawarimi and kage bushin in those games is still (as far as I know) unrepresented (correct me if I'm wrong). It seems to me that if WotC wants to make a ninja that is different than the rogue they would have to focus on the mystical aspects and not the martial ones (I'm a huge fan of it being based on the shadow power source and not ki). This might mean making a class that loosely resembles the cartoon, redefining it entirely, or not making it at all.
In closing, I would like to thank all of you who called me on my blunder. As has been pointed out, the two authors have borrowed a bit from preexisting legends. Their claim to fame, however, is bringing all the concepts together in one story that has reached the masses in ways the compartmentalized legends were unable to.
For those that are confused by the Japanese above:
Kawarimi = substitution and was used in Tenchu: Wrath of Heaven to replace a player who is about to die with a log.
Kage bushin = shadow clone and was in the original Ninja Gaiden.
Both techniques are central to the Naruto-ish ninja.
AND NO
if they make vampires all dance around in the sunlight twilight bullcrap and naruto ninjas i WILL quit D&D and won't be back till 5th edition.
Vampires are fine as they are in D&D, I LOVE classic vampires of being scared of sunlight and stakes and all that good stuff (van helsing ftw) but hollywood and their "modern day" vampire movies are just so horrible, I can't stand it, blade series being one of them. And twilight is only popular... ONLY popular because the fangirls wanna see the "cute boys". Fangirls are the reason twilight is popular, high school musical, and boys bands and pop music.
Naruto is horrible, sorry if that offends anyone :p i've seen both dubbed and original japanese and i just can't get into it, it's so terrible I can't even put it into words. The 3.5 ninja (which was 100% ripped from dragon magazine) had just the right mix of martial and mysticalness, though sudden strike still felt very weak and should have had sneak attack instead.
Actually, in the first true novelization of the Vampire legends, Carmilla, by J.S. Le Fanu, the vampire in question, the title character, was able to walk in daylight, just not high noon, and in Drcula, he is able to walk about London in sunlight (Stoker drew much of his lore about the Vampire as being inhumanly beautiful when well fed from Le Fanu's work, as Carmilla was a lesbian succubus of sorts and Stoker, as a fellow Irish writer had access to the earlier work). Only later adaptations made the Vampire susceptible to sunlight. Generally speaking, the undead of world mythology are more upset by sunlight than scared of it, and use the cover of darkness to their advantage.
I was aware of Dracula, but not your first example. The joke I was making was in reference to the glittering skin of the vampires in twilight. All shiny and stuff. I have no problem with vampire lords in D&D not being affected by sunlight, at the same time I am happy that the minions ARE affected.
Meh I prefer my vampires to be monsters. A twisted evil bloodsucking mockery of the person they used to be. No emotions, no morals, just the hunger, true sociopaths.
I don't go for these Anne Rice, Buffy, Twilight, etc etc etc tragic angsty pretty boys.
Now, with Buffy, I will admit that there were a few angst-ridden tragic vampires such as Angel in the Buffyverse. I don't know how much of the series you have watched, but most vampires are the monsters you so long to see. In the Buffyverse, the reason vampires are so evil is that they don't have their souls anymore and I can only really think of Angel as being the only example of 'angsty' vampire syndrome in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Meh I prefer my vampires to be monsters. A twisted evil bloodsucking mockery of the person they used to be. No emotions, no morals, just the hunger, true sociopaths.
Agreed. Being a vampire should be a fate worse than death. However, most people treat it as being a super hero with some dietary restrictions.
Fox: ONLY popular because the fangirls wanna see the "cute boys". Fangirls are the reason twilight is popular, high school musical, and boys bands and pop music.
Ya know, it would be wise for WotC to increase the number of female players, by having more 'cute boys' among the iconic D&D characters.
Music: Being a vampire should be a fate worse than death. However, most people treat it as being a super hero with some dietary restrictions.
LOL!
If the "half-vampire" thing sounds a bit too silly, then maybe they could flavor it as someone who was turned into a vampire but didn't lose their free will.
Also for those of you saying Naruto moves too fast for D&D, I'd have to agree. However, let us not forget the Monk, in 3.5, moved at blinding speeds (compared to other Classes). I mean a 10th level Human Monk can move 60 feet every 6 seconds. That's really fast, IMO.
As for Vampires... Why can't there be True Vampires (the old school bad arses) and the twisted/Lesser Vampires (like Twilight)?
Now, with Buffy, I will admit that there were a few angst-ridden tragic vampires such as Angel in the Buffyverse. I don't know how much of the series you have watched, but most vampires are the monsters you so long to see. In the Buffyverse, the reason vampires are so evil is that they don't have their souls anymore and I can only really think of Angel as being the only example of 'angsty' vampire syndrome in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Well, I think Buffy demonstrates that vampires as pc's don't come off right. It's too awkward to have something like that hanging out, and they are really better as npc's and villains. (Which is really how the character Spike is portrayed).
Returning to Ninjas, again, anime is its own thing entirely separate from D&D. I enjoy them having a distance between each other. That said, mystical Ninjas that go outside of what a rogue could reasonably pull of make perfect sense to me. Euro-centric D&D players are welcome to ignore such classes as a Chinese influenced monk, Japanese ninja, Chinese Wu Shi (巫師 /sorcerers/Where'd they get the name Wu Jen?), and such are perfectly reasonable to include. Quite frankly it's a shame it took 3.5 editions of D&D for that material to be treated reasonably, even if a lot of them were a bit underpowered. I really hope that 4e makes these classes, and I'd also love to see Kara-tur treated more seriously in FR.
Well, I think Buffy demonstrates that vampires as pc's don't come off right. It's too awkward to have something like that hanging out, and they are really better as npc's and villains.
Like the Drow!!!
Sorry, off topic. :P
But yeah if you really want a Naruto style ninja there are plenty of classes you could reflavour. Surprisingly, few of them are actual ninjas. With all the flashy magic things they do you could probably pull it off with a wizard and some very minor adjustments.
That having been said, I definitely wouldn't be buying a book with Naruto styled flavour and mechanics.
People who actually study Ninjitsu as a martial art (such as Heretic888 who has posted informatively about reallife Ninjas on these forums) emphasize, the Ninja and the Rogue are identical.
Mystical Ninja flavor exists but can be treated separately.
Meh I prefer my vampires to be monsters. A twisted evil bloodsucking mockery of the person they used to be. No emotions, no morals, just the hunger, true sociopaths.
I don't go for these Anne Rice, Buffy, Twilight, etc etc etc tragic angsty pretty boys.
Ditto.
Well, I think Buffy demonstrates that vampires as pc's don't come off right. It's too awkward to have something like that hanging out, and they are really better as npc's and villains. (Which is really how the character Spike is portrayed).
I agree that vampire PC's is a bad thing - at least in the scope of D&D. I agree that Spike and Angel would be NPC's if they were in a D&D game. If there were to be a a vampire themed race, the dhampir (or however you want to spell it) would be the best way. However, I'd like them to HAVE to feed on other characters/monsters to survive. Make them monstrous. That's me though, I'm not one for pretty boy Euro-Trash accent vampires - though the Bela Lugosi classic is a great movie. I'll accept him. The same goes for all the classic monster movies. Bela Lugosi, Boris Karloff are the shiznit in my opinion. Did I actually use shiznit? I can't believe that. You'd think that me typing this I'd go back and change that. Huh.. go figure.
Speaking about authentic Ninja.
People who actually study Ninjitsu as a martial art (such as Heretic888 who has posted informatively about reallife Ninjas on these forums) emphasize, the Ninja and the Rogue are identical.
Mystical Ninja flavor exists but can be treated separately.
Ya, realistic ninja is rogue w/ artful dodger, acrobatics, athletics, bluff, and sneaky weapon choices. DONE!
As for mystical ninjas a la subtler anime (over the top anime would be a theme buster in D&D, guys), the mystical mojo of 3.5 ninjas pumped up a bit is entirely reasonable for a future PH. Monk should be on deck, and they can hang out ;) Maybe that will cause them to reevaluate monk as a striker? A martial artist defender with a pinch of controller would be a very interesting addition to 4e :D
On vampires: The flavor of vampires is partly defined by their strength and partly by their weaknesses. If you want vampires in business suits playing at being modern day corporate gods or fangirl material, then go play Vampire the masquerade or even... requiem (or whatever the heck its called now). This is D&D, and in D&D my vampires will explode in sunlight (mine will at least); running water scares the hell out of them; garlic is more than just bad breath inducing; and a stake through the heart is pretty much death (though admittedly that doesn't change much from a normal being, but I actually like it when players are forced to use cunning and research in combating foes; read: They have to find out and use what something is weak against to get around DR or regeneration).
D&D does not, and should not, change simply because one or two examples in a genre superficially change. D&D is supposed to get at the root of fantasy (horror and sci-fi are just sub-types of fantasy), and that means using archtypes; not using one individual author's interpretation of something.
To drive the point home: True Blood ring any bells? Those vampires look like they walked out of the World of Darkness (Vampire the masquerade world). They even have similar sounding titles, organizational structure, taboos, cultural beliefs, etc. Do you really want the singular vision of one author reigning in D&D's depiction of things, when all of a sudden your vampire could suddenly become the poster child of another roleplaying system as a result of it?
MTF
I must admit, I'm new to DnD, so I don't have a lot of old prejudices. My ideal campaign would be one that ran on nothing but Rule of Cool. Seriously.
Anytime I see a high-speed fight in an anime, or see an epic explosion, it makes me think "F
yeah!" Why should DnD be any different, then?I'm of the opinion that if something looks/sounds/tastes awesome, it should happen.
I must admit, I'm new to DnD, so I don't have a lot of old prejudices. My ideal campaign would be one that ran on nothing but Rule of Cool. Seriously.
Anytime I see a high-speed fight in an anime, or see an epic explosion, it makes me think "F
You'll find many old-school Grognards bewail any and all attempts to make published D&D into anything beyond what they experienced and enjoyed in the 'golden days of AD&D.'
I'm with you, if its cool and in a splat book, then I'm all for it!
If someone had the ability to walk through walls as a mundane ability and it was available to everyone, then no one in that campaign universe would build walls! So if everyone and their cousin can fly and shoot fireballs out every orifice of their bodies, then a whole bunch of stuff has to change in the campaign world. Buildings and structures of all sorts would have to be changed to accommodate flyers; large swatch of land would have to made fireproof; the means by which combats occurred would have to be changed (how do you prevent "collateral damage" when everyone and their cousin fights with explosions).
Game balance is more than just making sure that the classes overall power levels are equal. If game balance were just about that, then there is no reason why all NPC classes couldn't just be 1 hit point weaklings with no real redeeming value and all PC classes couldn't be omnipotent gods with Pun-Pun like powers. Everything would be nice and equal. Game balance is also about making sure that the world isn't trashed by the presence of the PCs. Its about making sure that a campaign universe has every opportunity to prosper given love, care, and the meticulous hand of its creator governing the decisions of every minor being in existence. You may not realize it, but DMing a large game with a high degree of detail is really hard to do. And so throwing six-tons of abilities in just because they are awesome would just make the DM's life 9 kinds of crazy instead of the 3 kinds it already is.
So if you want a system that will just let you blow up stuff, move really fast, fly like you are out of DBZ, etc; then there are plenty of anime role playing systems that should strike your fancy, but This is D&D and D&D is about roleplaying High Fantasy characters not Anime characters. The difference is subtle perhaps, for those of you who have grown up on a steady diet of both (I'd have given up both my eye-teeth to be able to watch things like Pete Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy when I was 8 or 10. Ghostbusters was second to religion when I was a kid, and that was partly because it was the only game in town), but it is an important difference for those of us who want D&D to actually be what it purports to be: a High Fantasy roleplaying system.
MTF
As I have alluded to in earlier posts, I believe the Ki Controller and, perhaps even the Ki Striker will, in all likelihood, have abilities akin to those seen in Anime and Wuxia films - lightly armored people with mystical powers.
At any rate, you can pretty much emulate just about any power seen in Naruto with D&D 3.5 (Clones are just illusions, Fire powers are obvious, super strength is easy)... heck in 3.5 a Cleric with Illusion and Fire as his Domains could most likely BE a Naruto style 'ninja.'
Anyways, I'm not trying to shove Naruto into D&D, never have been, all I want is for abilities and powers for the very Asian Ki power source to be inspired by contemporary Anime and Wuxia shows & films. I'm not trying to 'break D&D' simply expanding its breadth.
EDIT: I'm old enough to remember going to the theatre and watching Ghostbusters & Ninja Turtles... Those we good times... I miss both of those shows... Its too bad 4Kids owns TMNT now, they pretty much ruined it... Maybe the new Ghostbuster game will lead to new movies and/or shows... One can only hope.
Because there are people out there who will actually consider the consequences of an ability on the entire world. Yes, us "Grognards" who just happen to be above the age of 17... think that throwing powers willy-nilly into D&D "just because they are cool" is a bad idea. That's because it is a bad idea.
If someone had the ability to walk through walls as a mundane ability and it was available to everyone, then no one in that campaign universe would build walls! So if everyone and their cousin can fly and shoot fireballs out every orifice of their bodies, then a whole bunch of stuff has to change in the campaign world. Buildings and structures of all sorts would have to be changed to accommodate flyers; large swatch of land would have to made fireproof; the means by which combats occurred would have to be changed (how do you prevent "collateral damage" when everyone and their cousin fights with explosions).
Game balance is more than just making sure that the classes overall power levels are equal. If game balance were just about that, then there is no reason why all NPC classes couldn't just be 1 hit point weaklings with no real redeeming value and all PC classes couldn't be omnipotent gods with Pun-Pun like powers. Everything would be nice and equal. Game balance is also about making sure that the world isn't trashed by the presence of the PCs. Its about making sure that a campaign universe has every opportunity to prosper given love, care, and the meticulous hand of its creator governing the decisions of every minor being in existence. You may not realize it, but DMing a large game with a high degree of detail is really hard to do. And so throwing six-tons of abilities in just because they are awesome would just make the DM's life 9 kinds of crazy instead of the 3 kinds it already is.
So if you want a system that will just let you blow up stuff, move really fast, fly like you are out of DBZ, etc; then there are plenty of anime role playing systems that should strike your fancy, but This is D&D and D&D is about roleplaying High Fantasy characters not Anime characters. The difference is subtle perhaps, for those of you who have grown up on a steady diet of both (I'd have given up both my eye-teeth to be able to watch things like Pete Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy when I was 8 or 10. Ghostbusters was second to religion when I was a kid, and that was partly because it was the only game in town), but it is an important difference for those of us who want D&D to actually be what it purports to be: a High Fantasy roleplaying system.
MTF
But why can't High Fantasy allow me to decapitate several goblins in 3 seconds with one swing of my impossibly-sized sword, which just happens to be on fire?
When I get more powerful, what's stopping me from having a climactic battle in mid-air with a dragon, all the while unleashing shockwaves from my sword and getting up close with a devastating slash, leaving a huge, bleeding gash in its right side?
Why shouldn't my battle with Orcus, Demon Prince of Undeath, end with him exploding into a gigantic column of flame, with me and my party standing with their backs to the explosion, acting like destroying one of the most evil forces in all dimensions was no big deal?
All that stuff sounds awesome, and if it happened in a campaign I played, memorable to boot. Maybe it's just differing tastes, I guess.
But why can't High Fantasy allow me to decapitate several goblins in 3 seconds with one swing of my impossibly-sized sword, which just happens to be on fire?
When I get more powerful, what's stopping me from having a climactic battle in mid-air with a dragon, all the while unleashing shockwaves from my sword and getting up close with a devastating slash, leaving a huge, bleeding gash in its right side?
Why shouldn't my battle with Orcus, Demon Prince of Undeath, end with him exploding into a gigantic column of flame, with me and my party standing with their backs to the explosion, acting like destroying one of the most evil forces in all dimensions was no big deal?
All that stuff sounds awesome, and if it happened in a campaign I played, memorable to boot. Maybe it's just differing tastes, I guess.
Its the Old Guard vs. the New Guard debate. I'm happy I'm on the cusp of being both
My group tends to focus on more mundane things when we're playing D&D but we go completely cinematic when we're playing Star Wars, lol. :DPeople want to adventure during the day.
Dhampirs, however... I can get behind that.
Having a climactic battle between Orcus and a 25th level party that takes place across dimensions, mid-air, and the plane of Limbo (with all kind of craziness there), then so be it.
The gripe I have is when people think cool overrides a need for game balance. And the world of Naruto is chalk full of examples of how game balance should not be overlooked. The world of Naruto should in fact be run entirely by ninjas. You should not be able to be even a low-level bureaucrat without in fact first being a chunin (or whatever low to mid level ninja are called).
You can and should allow mystical ninja and monk abilities into the game (for the right campaign setting), but they need to be toned down versions what Naruto and DBZ offer. Ki is one thing, but at no point should Ki out Arcane, Arcane Power, and nor do Ki give license to be an atomic bomb (short of 50th level or what have you, and I really dislike ultra-high level games for that reason; I fail to see the human connection in playing gods since their problems are inevitably something that no human can relate to... OMG you couldn't blow up the entire plane of Horrible Stuff X, well that makes you a failure of a god, you know? You might even lose worshipers over that one...). So I reiterate; Mystical Ninja: No problem; in the right campaign setting. You want to meditate at the shrine of the spirit of war (not god of war) and gain the ability to slay 30 enemy shinobis, then so be it. That's still high-fantasy. It's eastern themed, but that's personal choice. What makes anime different than high-fantasy is mostly a matter of power level (there are certain stereotypical character types and plot devices that are uniquely anime, but that's mostly irrelevant here).
A direct port of Naruto into D&D would result in everyone having to be a at least a first or second level ninja to succeed at any other class. Wizards would need substitution jutsu (which every first level ninja would get if you go by Naruto) just to have a hope of surviving. My critique of anime themed roleplaying is matter of procedure and game balance, not an attack on the flavor. I happen to enjoy anime (I happen to think that DBZ is a one-dimensional travesty and should not be held up as a poster child of what anime has to offer, but so be it); Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, GTO, Samurai Champloo, Yotoden (what became Wrath of the Ninja), and the list goes on.
I recognize that no one is arguing for a direct port (at least I hope not), but rather am trying to point out that choosing Naruto for your source of inspiration amongst anime is a less than inspirational choice if you catch my drift, and the type of anime that is most popular today tends to be one that out-powers traditional "western" fantasy archtypes by leaps and bounds. If you want to reconcile the two, then so be it, but before you throw Goku into your game world; you need to consider the fact that Gandalf would get his *** kicked by Super Saiyan 1 let alone 5 (with whatever garbage that is supposedly able to pull off, like leveling whole galaxies and crap; how do you even challenge something that can straight blow up whole galaxies? Galactus is bullcrap and he merely eats whole planets...)
MTF
.But seeing some action scenes from Naruto, Dragonball Z, Bleach, Soul Eater, and Gurren Lagann where everyone's moving around at high speed and pulling out fantastical moves just looks so awesome (to me, at least).
If it can do it within the rules, then it should be done as awesomely as possible, at least in my opinion.
There is ALREADY a class which backflips around the battlefield, stabbing people with shortswords, and throwing shuriken at them, all in an entirely non magical way. If the "ninja" class exists at all and doesn't magic it up a bit, it won't have any purpose.
WOTC has no choice but to make the ninja into an at least somewhat supernatural character, even if they call that supernatural ability "ki."
There is ALREADY a class which backflips around the battlefield, stabbing people with shortswords, and throwing shuriken at them, all in an entirely non magical way. If the "ninja" class exists at all and doesn't magic it up a bit, it won't have any purpose.
This has the ring of Truth to it.
I'm of the opinion that if something looks/sounds/tastes awesome, it should happen.
I have a related opinion.
If somebody wants something, and theres no good reason why they shouldnt have it, then they should have it. The challenge is to coordinate and optimize eachothers desires as much as possible.
Without a doubt, Masashi Kishimoto and Stephenie Meyer have created new ways that ninja and vampires are perceived respectively. Their creations are not foreign to what we already knew and loved, but more specialized. I think that WotC is now challenged in remaking these characters for fourth edition...
God I hope not...D&D should strive to set standards other forms of fiction try to emulate, not the other way around. Pop culture has caused enough damage to many classical themes, I hope it dosen't spread its cancer to D&D as well.
MTTF: If someone had the ability to walk through walls as a mundane ability and it was available to everyone, then no one in that campaign universe would build walls!
:D 'Walk thru walls'?! Not your best example.
Eladrin already, exactly, walk thru walls. At level 1, no less. Shadar-Kai have a similar ability.
Vnt: Anytime I see a high-speed fight in an anime,
It would be easy to reflavor Eladrin teleportation as 'moving so fast, no one can see you'. Even so fast, their
To make a new power that 'runs faster than light', itd probably be balanced to extend the Eladrins teleportation range but then require line-of-sight to the destination, without any barriers in between. As an Encounter power, it seems balanced, and fits well within the D&D scheme of things.
Explosions.
Explosions have been standard fare in D&D since Burning Hands. Not an issue.
MTTF: Substitution.
Substituting an inanimate object in place of a character who is about to die: the Ninja legends mention substituting a log. This concept exists in many cultures. For example, the Norse Sagas mention Viking magic substituting a whale bone and transferring the injury/sickness from a person to the whale bone. I would like D&D to have a healing spell with this kind of flavor to represent this concept. I think its especially appropriate for the Artificer as a Healer-Leader. Since logs and whale bones come from living creatures, Druids could have the same ability as an evocation.
Vnt: If it can do it within the rules, then it should be done as awesomely as possible, at least in my opinion.
Really, most of this stuff can already be done. And most of it from level 1, from Eladrin teleportation to Githyanki telekinetic jumps.
Genasi have a number of so-called 'Naruto' abilities depending on their elemental manifestation, including Airsouls flying leaps.
But why can't High Fantasy allow me to decapitate several goblins in 3 seconds with one swing of my impossibly-sized sword, which just happens to be on fire?
You can 'decapitate several goblins in 3 seconds' ... theyr called 'minions'.
ElE: I'm not trying to shove Naruto into D&D, never have been.
All I want is for abilities and powers for the very Asian Ki power source to be inspired by contemporary Anime and Wuxia shows & films. I'm not trying to 'break D&D' simply expanding its breadth.
The Ki power source = Wuxia. I hope so. Anime isnt my thing, but when I saw the movie Hidden Dragon, Crouching Tiger, ... I better be able to do that in D&D! :D
Ki should probably focus on Close magical aura effects.
That said, the Ki power source should be ethnic-neutral. It should be possible to use Ki for an Asian-esque setting, but it mustnt require it.
Ki is the force of ones own soul, understood as a bodily aura. Many cultures have this concept, including Norse (hugr) and Israelite (nefesh). All D&D settings should be able to use soul magic, seemlessly without tripping over Japanese technical terms.
Dont get me wrong. Its good to have an Asian campaign setting, in the same catagory as other campaign settings: Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Core, Spelljammer, Ravenloft, etcetera. But in the Players Handbook, this Asian flavor should be minimal when describing the Ki power source.
As for the magical type of ninja, I'd be willing to bet that one could easily reflavour the eventual Illusionist class to be a fine ninja caster, and if you want it to emulate Naruto even more specifically, just dress the ninja in a day-glo orange prison jumpsuit and strap a license plate to zir head. :P
Meh I prefer my vampires to be monsters. A twisted evil bloodsucking mockery of the person they used to be. No emotions, no morals, just the hunger, true sociopaths.
I don't go for these Anne Rice, Buffy, Twilight, etc etc etc tragic angsty pretty boys.
I like the way D&D has it worked out. I feel free to play the spawn as the ravenous fiends, while the lords can be the aristocratic charisma types.
In general mythology, I really like the Anne Rice type of vampire. It works in a very dark and decadent kind of way. When it comes to the savage consumption of human beings by human-looking creatures, I prefer wendigo legends. That's where the real gore and viscera is. Then, for the most monstrous extremity, I like the niche that ghouls fill. Not the ones that are just meaner zombies; the ones that are living creatures who've been transformed into unholy predators by their hunger for flesh, be it alive or dead.
God I hope not...D&D should strive to set standards other forms of fiction try to emulate, not the other way around. Pop culture has caused enough damage to many classical themes, I hope it dosen't spread its cancer to D&D as well.
Many authors who are considered groundbreaking now were considered pedestrian, banal, or niche in their day. Once science fiction was viewed as an upstart flash in the pan, and Lovecraft was derided as yet another hack pulp writer.
The only difference between 'pop culture' and 'classical themes' is time.
Just the same, I prefer for D&D to take the long view. While it should respect the evolving narrative of mythology, especially its own, it shouldn't prematurely canonize anything that hasn't truly entered the public consciousness (for example, in a decade or so, I can easily see the notion of a racial enmity between vampires and werewolves becoming 'a matter of legend').
Also as far as the Ki power source is concerned, it is based on Qi or the life-force energy for lack of a better definition. While Psionics use the mind to bend the world around them, Qi is akin to letting go of the mind and letting yourself flow with your internal energy and thereby learning to focus that energy. A quick youtube search for shaolin and the first video that came up for me was a national geographic clip about qi. Sums up the philosophy and capabilities nicely (and it's just cool seeing a guy bend the shaft of a spear with the head of the spear pressed against his throat). I think you'll see what the Ki powersource is meant to be based off of.
But I imagine the kind of monk/ninja/bender/whatever with crazy elemental powers you're talking about will be easily achieved by multiclassing Ki and Arcane classes to suit your needs.
Vampires: Meyer will be the first to admit she did no prior Vampire research. Twilight's mythology shows a stark contrast with all the other vampire movies in the past decade. Underworld, Van Helsing, 30 Days of Night, Blade series, all of which adhere pretty closely with typical Vampire mythos and the iconic pop culture fear the sunlight, feed on humans, etc. I haven't seen or read Twilight myself but after looking at a plot synopsis, I don't think that friendly highschool vampires have quite replaced the archetype put forth in Bram Stoker's classic novel.
Vampires: Meyer will be the first to admit she did no prior Vampire research. Twilight's mythology shows a stark contrast with all the other vampire movies in the past decade. Underworld, Van Helsing, 30 Days of Night, Blade series, all of which adhere pretty closely with typical Vampire mythos and the iconic pop culture fear the sunlight, feed on humans, etc. I haven't seen or read Twilight myself but after looking at a plot synopsis, I don't think that friendly highschool vampires have quite replaced the archetype put forth in Bram Stoker's classic novel.
That first sentence just blew my mind. It isn't nuclear science or quantum physics or anything like it. All she had to do was watch a GOOD vampire movie or two and thats all the research on vampires you need. I thought she was just trying to be different when she wrote her books. I didn't know it was a case of "didn't do the research".
I don't watch anime anymore but that is more due to it being hard to play video games/surf the internet while watching a subtitled movie than it is a change in tastes. Back in the day, I was a big fan of Record of Lodoss Wars(my favorite), The Slayers, and BSSM. I also did periodically watch Master of Mosquiton and Yoroiden Samurai Troopers. Sadly, no one ever seems to carry any of the Lodoss Wars DVDs nowadays.
Record of Lodoss Wars and The Slayers in themselves seem based on D&D and BSSM would be woefully easy to convert into 4e with a Daily/Encounter style system.
So if you want a system that will just let you blow up stuff, move really fast, fly like you are out of DBZ, etc; then there are plenty of anime role playing systems that should strike your fancy, but This is D&D and D&D is about roleplaying High Fantasy characters not Anime characters. It is an important difference for those of us who want D&D to actually be what it purports to be: a High Fantasy roleplaying system.
My improbable fantasy stories are better than your improbable fantasy stories! Seriously, you're saying blowing stuff up, moving real fast, and flying around is anime? I guess that makes every edition of D&D Hardcore Anime.
Also Naruto and the other 'anime ninjas' aren't level 1 characters. Even at the start of Naruto he'd be close to a level 11 (paragon tier) character. In most movies and literature the protagonist is rarely a fledgeling level 1 character, often they're at least paragon tier and in the case of a ninja master, Neo, Naruto, Inuyasha, ad nauseum are epic level characters.
Substitution power fits even with a rogue, at paragon tier or maybe higher heroic. Shadow clone is an illusion based power and for decoys would be low level (think mirror image wizard spell from older editions). To have them be able to do damage would put them in paragon tier. Again these could easily be given to a rogue without taking them out of the martial power source.
As for Eladrin and walking through walls, they can't do it at-will every minute, and it's only Eladrin and its assumed it could be blocked since it's not a teleport but a planar shifting into and out of the Feywild. Theoretically you could ward an area to prevent planar crossings. Also Eladrin Fey Step requires line of sight to their destination (see page 268 of the PHB). So it's not a 'walk through walls' unless that wall has a window and it's only one race not 'everyone'.
Also WotC is trying to break 'ki' power source away from being a catch all for Asian themed classes. They're also trying to remove cultural biases from classes so they fit in with any culture, that's why they give us racial PPs for the Martial Classes in Martial Power to show how every race can be those classes and how the race defines how the class is flavored, not the class itself. Ki is also called 'soul' in the PHB and many suspect it will include the 4e version of Incarnum classes as well as the monk.
We've already got one 1e OA class turned into a martial PP for fighters (the kensai) which while using an Asian name for the PP is not 'flavored' as Asian so works in any campaign as just a weapons master. There's no reason for ninja, shugenja, wu jen, sohei, samurai, or others to be ki outside an Asian name origin, and most of them fit in better with a different power source, especially if you strip away the Asian cultural trappings and focus just on powers.
Once again, all I'm saying is that since we're going to have a Ki power source anyways, why not let some of the power be inspired by Naruto and other anime style ninjas? I never said we should have Naruto directly ported to D&D, hell no, but there's nothing wrong with letting the show inspire the developers to create flavorful and unique powers that will help differentiate Ki from all the other power sources.
As I have alluded to in earlier posts, I believe the Ki Controller and, perhaps even the Ki Striker will, in all likelihood, have abilities akin to those seen in Anime and Wuxia films - lightly armored people with mystical powers.
So... What exactly about that description is inspired by Naruto? If anything traditional asian mythology inspired that explanation and then anime (especially Naruto) dialed up the "mystical powers" as far as they could.
Now, I see a lot of people on the Naruto side of things throwing around terms like "grongard" (Spelling?) and "the rule of cool" and claiming that this is a debate between "new D&Ders" and "Old D&Ders who only want things to be like they were in the good old days of D&D". I have to vehemently disagree with this.
I am 19 years old. I started playing toward the end of 3.5 and even then not very often. I am a huge fan of 4e and yes, the rule of cool is one that I am all for both as a DM and player. My players want to reflavour an attack, weapon or action to be cooler? Absolutely. You want to swing down off the tapestry to cut off the bad guy? Sure. You want to tackle the bad guy off a cliff? Sure. I'm all about cinematic, over the top, pirates of the caribbean style fight scenes. I'm probably more of a "new age" D&Der than most. However, this Naruto crap is nonsense in the greater scope of D&D.
It'd be like throwing the Dragon Ball Z characters in the Lord of the Rings. Not that I'm a big fan of either franchise, but it illustrates the point. The powers demonstrating in Naruto are over the top, a little silly in many cases, and don't fit with anything in D&D.
Yes, there is room for "lightly armored people with mystical powers". That is the essential definition of the ki power source as far as I am concerned, but it's hardly inspired by Naruto, rather they both share a source of inspiration.
And the vampire question, let me see if I understand this: You want to take one of the Iconic villain caliber monsters and turn them into a metrosexual emo kid? I banish you!
And the vampire question, let me see if I understand this: You want to take one of the Iconic villain caliber monsters and turn them into a metrosexual emo kid? I banish you!
Don't forget to banish Anne Rice too. She's at least somewhat at fault.
Yes, there is room for "lightly armored people with mystical powers". That is the essential definition of the ki power source as far as I am concerned, but it's hardly inspired by Naruto, rather they both share a source of inspiration.
I'd say it's more a case of Naruto and similar material being the old wuxia and kung fu stuff turned up to 11. It's the same basic idea, but one takes it to a much further extreme than the other.
It's also worth noting that Naruto in particular was originally concepted as a story about a school for young wizards, but was changed to ninja to avoid being viewed as a Harry Potter ripoff. When you think of it in those terms, it's easy to see the characters as Wizards, Warlocks and Clerics with the occasional Paladin rather than "Ninja."
Without a doubt, Masashi Kishimoto and Stephenie Meyer have created new ways that ninja and vampires are perceived respectively.
Pop culture was introduced to the ninja-as-hero in 1967's "You Only Live Twice." As for vampires as romantic figures, you can go back as far as Bela Ligosi's Dracula, or, if you want them as heros, only as far back as Anne Rice's Interview with a Vampire.
So, nothing new, here. Ninjas have not just been represented as heros in RPGs, they've been mercilessly over-done in RPGs since the 80s, at least. Heck, there are even comic board games like 'Ninja Burger.' Vampires have been well-represented as romantic heroes in the gaming community since Vampire the Masquerade (1991).
So, while the venerable D&D franchise may not have much jumped on the Vampire bandwagon ('ninja's apeared in Dragon Magazine a /long/ time ago - my Dragon collection goes back to '79, and I have the first "ninja NPC class" article only in a 'Best of anthology), the gaming community has been substantially leading the pop culture one in embracing both black-clad-murderers-as-heros.
Just watched episode 1 of Naruto, seems like Harry Potter with ninjas basically. I prefer Sampei: http://video.google.it/videosearch?hl=en&q=naruto&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#q=sampei&hl=en&emb=0
It's also worth noting that Naruto in particular was originally concepted as a story about a school for young wizards, but was changed to ninja to avoid being viewed as a Harry Potter ripoff. When you think of it in those terms, it's easy to see the characters as Wizards, Warlocks and Clerics with the occasional Paladin rather than "Ninja."
Woah! I didn't know that. That's really neat now that I think about it. Not that I don't beleive you, but can you link me to some source where it talks about that? I missed it on Wikipedia. :D
Woah! I didn't know that. That's really neat now that I think about it. Not that I don't beleive you, but can you link me to some source where it talks about that? I missed it on Wikipedia. :D
Kishimoto actually confessed that in one of the early graphic novels... May have been 1 or 2.
Flying, explosions, and moving supremely fast are possible in D&D, but they are NOT standard fare for 90% of classes. Even arcanists for whom flight is a regular activity do not do so at an astounding rate of travel.
So I will reiterate: If you want flying, explosions, and moving supremely fast (or a whole host of low-level high power abilities in a more general sense), then you are playing the wrong game system. If, however, you appreciate the conflict generated between nearly balanced warring factions, and a need to use varying abilities to pull off a narrow victory, Then high fantasy roleplaying is for you.
Walking through walls is perhaps the best example I could possibly come up with. Walking through walls if it were a first level ability would cause all architects, thief-catchers, bounty-hunters, vault designers, royal guardsmen, etc to all have to completely rethink their approaches; because walls would not exist. In D&D pass wall (and whatever other relative approximations exist) is a mid to high level effect, and it is sensibly so; this effect would have a profound effect on the constitution of society. This is why so many people disliked the fabricate line of spell having such ease of use and permanent effect (who needs craftsmen when you can have a wizard make expert work in 10 minutes).
Nearly every time I hear or see someone suggest greater anime influences in D&D, they almost never consider the consequences of what introducing their rampant power set into the game world would have. The reason why lord of the rings so easily controlled magic's influence on the world's economies, warfare, engineering, etc is because magic was both rare and low powered. In D&D magic is somewhat rare and fairly high powered. When you make high powered magical abilities common place, then the campaign world must change. And this is what I am protesting.
Nowhere in the fantasy stories or literature that D&D purports to emulate do the vast majority of characters fly, shoot fireballs, and move 200 miles per hour. Beowulf doesn't have a laundry list of magical powers to make him a badass. Gilgamesh was pretty hardcore without needing to be able to move faster than the eye can see. Odysseus was mostly just an above average guy (a little larger than life, but not to the point that he could charm aphrodite with a wink or out smart apollo in three seconds or some other ridiculous example of prowess). Even more contemporary fantasy stories don't have plethora of abilities all resting in one place as a commonality; when someone does have lots of abilities said person is usually a rarity (sometimes unique) and most often the abilities are low powered (and in those cases where it isn't there is often a major drawback; like being cursed: think werewolf): taking a look at Martin, Jordan, Lackey, etc.
Anime can and should be roleplayed; I will agree to this because I have done it before (BESM). But at no point should D&D become more like an anime roleplaying system because that is not what D&D is about.
Mythic ninja abilities =/= Anime ninja abilities. And therefore arguing for the inclusion of mythic ninja abilities into D&D is an entirely separate issue from the inclusion of anime ninja abilities. Anime powers are scaled wrong for inclusion into D&D and are far too wide-spread for inclusion into D&D. Until someone can show me how anime abilities are not far too powerful and far too commonplace for D&D, then the conclusion that anime abilities are wrong for D&D must necessarily follow.
MTF
I would like to see a playable vampire "multiclass" and vampire lord "paragon path" (for players) however.
Without a doubt, Masashi Kishimoto and Stephenie Meyer have created new ways that ninja and vampires are perceived respectively. Their creations are not foreign to what we already knew and loved, but more specialized. I think that WotC is now challenged in remaking these characters for fourth edition. Will they make the ninja in a way that Naruto fans can imitate the show or the vampire so Twilight fans can imitate the book? Will they make it so such imitation is impossible? Will they hit a middle ground where some things transfer from the series, but fans of the classic characters won't feel they've changed too much?
Who are these people? I’ve never heard of them.
Anyway, Twilight is garbage (I’ve seen nothing but bad things said about it) and Naruto ranges from good to very bad.
I don’t think they’ll really impact things particularly. Ever heard of World of Darkness? Ever heard of Anne Rice?
Anne Rice has way more influence than Meyer will ever have, methinks.
And honestly, who cares?
Look back at ninjas in, say, second edition, and you’ll see they have a wide variety of powers. Naruto-type ninjas are actually pretty common depictions; its nothing new, and this sort of thing has previously existed in D&D and I see no reason why it won’t exist in the future. Really, a “ninja class” is meaningless anyway, if you’re talking Naruto type ninja, as they really have a broad variety of powers. Monks and Swordmages both represent “ninja” of certain sorts, and rogues represent non-magical ninja, and I’m sure more classes (such as the illusionist) will fill more such archetypes.
As for vampires, there’s already a game which does that. Its called Vampire. I don’t think WotC is going to go for the goth market, I think WW has it pretty much cornered.
My third (and perhaps favourite char) was a Rogue/Wizard/MI themed like a "Naruto" universe Ninja.
I'm sure we'll see more Anime influenced characters, especially when Ki powered classes start showing up, but I think that Wizards will balance them out.
-edit
I think Rogues already have some non-standard influences, their higher tier powers and some of their abilities are quite out there, the MI being a prime case. You can turn invisible if you kill someone higher level than you and can turn invisible every 5 mins... all thanks to Martial power...
I was hoping there'd be a Shadow Striker base class like the 3.5 Assassin Prestige Class.
Oh yeah, if I had my way we would have an actual class called Assassin as the shadow striker.
I know people get their panties in a bunch over the name assassin for a class, but it has been a class in every edition (1st, 2nd and 3rd) of the game.
Same with the vampire, they took the pop culturey social vampire, and melded it fairly well with the grave dwelling blood sucker to a point that I think most people, and at least I, found good. It's a fair blend, and has some powerful abilities, but the vampire isn't OMGFGBAOUTNTHROWTHATBUS!!11! strong, and more importantly, it still has weaknesses. The vampire is a match for any human of comparble level, but against several adversaries his chances are going to slim, and that's how it should be as a predator. They need to prey on the weak, vulnerable, and solitary people, not just walk around in broad daylight jumping over buildings and hurling taxi's at each other.
Kishimoto actually confessed that in one of the early graphic novels... May have been 1 or 2.
This is where I got it. Googling "Naruto, Wizard" turns up thousands of fan sites but no useful links, unfortunately.
I'm a new D&D player...I've started with 4th edition.
But I can see how horrible it would be to include Twilight vampires and Naruto ninjas in D&D.
Twilight vampires are almost vampires in name only. The author did absolutely no research into the mythos when writing her stories, and didn't give her creations any weaknesses. They would NOT work as a PC race, or even a NPC race.
Naruto ninjas....where to begin? I got into Naruto in Part 1, when it was decent. But if any of you have read Part 2, you'll realize that Kishimoto is a terrible writer. He has no concept of power creep, and several characters become insanely powerful in short periods of time. Not to mention character favoritism of characters OTHER than the main character. The character who the series is name after hardly gets any screen time anymore.
Not to mention, most of the powers in Naruto have no place being called "ninja" powers. A few I can understand. Waterwalking, illusions, fire breathing, replacement jutsu, summoning.....stuff like that is classic ninja. But really....a lot people like you guys basically want the non-ninja stuff. You want crap like Chidori, Rasengan, Sharingan....you want the crap that Kishimoto made up. And the problem is, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.
Really....I can think of a lot of much better fictional ninja to base the D&D ninja class off of.
The D&D ninja is based on the historical shinobi with a bit of the mythical ninja thrown in. They're the sneaky infiltrators....spies and information gatherers....assassins of the night. Sure, they have some mystical powers. Mostly illusions and other things to let them hide and such. And poison use. Don't forget that.
Also, on the earlier discussion of "Rule of Cool".....Rule of Cool only works for so long before it stops being cool. Coolness is relative, and if you try to make everything run off of rule of cool, people get tired of it.
I prefer my fantasy character to dispatch the low-level minions in fairly mundane ways, and only pulling out the show-stopping Rule of Cool stuff on the boss.
It's also worth noting that Naruto in particular was originally concepted as a story about a school for young wizards, but was changed to ninja to avoid being viewed as a Harry Potter ripoff.
Umm, no. It was originally set in a more modern time (guns and everything). Naruto himself was the son of the Kyuubi and he had to learn how to live with humans and avoid becoming evil as was his nature. He had no friends and he was sent from the village to make some or something (been a while since I read the pilot chapter). Additionally, as I recall his powers weren't to do with Ninjutsu or some school of magic but rather simply because he was a demon fox and thus had illusion type powers thanks to that.
Vampires are fine as they are in D&D, I LOVE classic vampires of being scared of sunlight and stakes and all that good stuff (van helsing ftw) but hollywood and their "modern day" vampire movies are just so horrible, I can't stand it, blade series being one of them. And twilight is only popular... ONLY popular because the fangirls wanna see the "cute boys". Fangirls are the reason twilight is popular, high school musical, and boys bands and pop music.
Ok, Classic vampires as you put it are the middle child in the mythos of vampires. cultural folklore is much boarder and can fit much more then Dracula ever could.
Cultural vampires from folklore had more and less weaknesses. Some cultures had in additon to garlic, peppermint and lilac as possible wards.
Moving water, holy water, and water mixed with the fuilds of virgins was on the list of repellents. (also what constituted holy water differed from religion and region to religion and region.) But lesser know repellents included salt and iron filings.
Also in many cultures in the Middle East and Asia vampires where thought of as OCD. If a person put a net or a pile of small object such as grains or nails, the vampire would have to count the knots or pieces before being able to pass it. This was to make them spend the might counting and get caught in the sun because those were sensitive to sunlight.
Many weren't or were only in certain forms. There is a type of South American vampire that removes its skin and travels as a ball of light similar to a willowisp. the color of the light is a judge of how dangerous it is and those can die if they don't return to their skins before dawn. so the way to destroy them is to destroy the skin before they return from the hunt.
The real reason Twilight is famous is she made a young adult version of the vampire books that sell millions per author in some cases. (Laurell K. Hamiton, Anne Rice, Kelly Armstrong, Kim Harrison...to name a few.) Vampire Erotica. It is a big market for women readers, (Also gay men and straight men like can be big fans of these women.) So yes the woman is brillant for capitalizing on the young adult market. Many LKH readers I know started at a younger age. She effectively made it easier for adult series to sell. It is not just a wish to see cute boys. Those female vampires were more attractive. they were in better shape and looked healthier.
Also these things adapt to the time and place they are in.
If our creatures of the night are lost and horny misunderstood men and women with a diet quirk, then what could that possibly say about modern people.
Myths are a good way to judge what bothers people. What they worry about. Vampires relate to sex theses days. (Or you could say they always have.) that makes sense with these killer STD's and date **** drugs and such. Vampire biology issues like human food, DNA, terms for the quirks, and reproduction comes up more often. That makes sense since we look at real world things that way.
They always have been of a "mature" nature. In South America the lobishomen have been able to create great desire in the women they feed upon. It is always women with them.
Dracula was bi. Take another look at the cigar scene.
Not to mention Gothic Era vampire novels (like Dracula, and Carmilla) were often an effort to get past the censorship laws for pornography. Back when those where written hand holding was scandalous. So a creature that enters the bedroom and can touch the neck of a person in the night. Not just touch touch the neck but penetrate it and precede to suck on the fluids. Well there was appeal there. A more modern example pf this would have been Tentalce Hentai. Look at the origins with the censorship laws.
Also vampires of folklore didn't limit themselves to blood. Dairy fluids like cows milk, goats milk, creams and human breast milk were often a substitute.
Some who where based in the myths of succubi and incubi feed on sexual fluids.
In some areas of Europe It was almost impossible to extract vampire myth from werewolf myth.
So no I really fail to see where you are basing your anti-cute vampires idea.
Now if you are going to point to the movies like Blade. The bad guys in those movies showed the giving and taking of blood as power, food, and ****.
Anne Rice while her boys couldn't physically have sex there was tones of ****- and heteroerotic under tones.
Laurell K. Hamiton who is the current big girl of the genre. (Since AR went religious and believes religion and vamps are incompatible. Her choice I give no judgment of that.) This woman is in novels, graphic novels, and is working on a movie for her vampire series Anita Blake Vampire Hunter. They start in an alternate reality were vampires are fighting for civil rights like voting but have been ruled legally recognized by the Supreme Court. They all but all have sunlight problems. The author has a biology degree and researches everything to extremes. Her lycanthropes are beautifully expressed as a mix of the animal they are based upon, the culture that animal shifter comes from, the human that turns into that animal, and the leaders of the groups.
Many of the fans of Twilight were the adult vampire book readers. the grown women and men who are into the more graphic genre.
I do acknowledge the existence of a few modern novels that turn away for all of this. Circe du Freak is a beautiful example of this. those vampires resemble something closer to Norse warriors.
These examples are fewer and further between simply because the act of giving blood is so intimate. People in real life get off on blood letting in many forms and pleasure pain that doesn't break the skin so actual reactions in real life can taint fictions.
Anne Rice has been credited with making the vampire sexy but that just isn't true. It was about sensuality from the beginning.
So no I disagree with you. Could you possibly clarify what you mean by modern and classical views of vampires.
On the issue of religion and vampires. PreChristian vamps where drastically different then post Jesus ones.
I truly doubt with WoCT's family orientated gaming kick the vampire will never be what is in historical fiction and folklore. It is a modern vampire we will see. One of the two major view points. Saddly not the one I am found of.
On the issue of ninja's what has been said about anime ninja's being an archetype preexisting with a large circulation is true. There is one. With that said Naruto ninja's would never be possible as a single class. Healing, defending, striking, mind control, size modification, taking different forms, and all the other fussy things with can do would really require each and every class currently available and many not.
The teenage girls that do play D&D might laugh at the concept of the pretty boy vamps from Twilight finding its way into D&D. I see nothing wrong with Twilight and don't know too much about it btw. Just my 2 cents from some things I heard about it.
That first sentence just blew my mind. It isn't nuclear science or quantum physics or anything like it. All she had to do was watch a GOOD vampire movie or two and thats all the research on vampires you need. I thought she was just trying to be different when she wrote her books. I didn't know it was a case of "didn't do the research".
Its worth remembering that she had absolutely no obligation to do any "research" on vampires whatsoever. Its not like they're real.
I don't know what she did or didn't do, but her role as an author is to write an entertaining story. That's it.
Its a different role from that of a game designer, who is often expected to create believable recreations within a game of archetypes established by other authors.
Elitist I am if that's what I have to be to keep "rampant power creep" from raining a plethora of needless or broken abilities on D&D.
Flying, explosions, and moving supremely fast are possible in D&D, but they are NOT standard fare for 90% of classes. Even arcanists for whom flight is a regular activity do not do so at an astounding rate of travel.
This opinion is silly.
Including anime archetypes does not cause some sort of natural power creep. There is nothing preventing archetypal anime styled powers from being included in the game at level appropriate points, and to level appropriate degrees.
This is so obvious that I feel kind of dumb pointing it out, but I guess I have to. While "moving fast" may be an anime archetypal ninja ability, "200 miles per hour" isn't some sort of intrinsic minimum speed. While throwing fireballs may be an anime archetypal ninja ability (I'm not convinced this is true, but lets just pretend), there's nothing that says that those fireballs have to be of level inappropriate sizes and damage amounts. While flying may be an archetypal anime ninja ability (this is almost definitely false, because jumping, running, and balancing are far, far more common, but lets pretend), there's no reason that the flight granted has to be of level inappropriate durations and speeds.
Has anyone seen Let the Right One In yet? I've heard that its been out in theatres only a few weeks and people already consider it a top tier vampire movie.
Amazing movie! If you are going to see any vampire love story this year, forget that Twilight crap and go see Let The Right One In. By far one of the best vampire movies you'll ever see.
Umm, no. It was originally set in a more modern time (guns and everything). Naruto himself was the son of the Kyuubi and he had to learn how to live with humans and avoid becoming evil as was his nature. He had no friends and he was sent from the village to make some or something (been a while since I read the pilot chapter). Additionally, as I recall his powers weren't to do with Ninjutsu or some school of magic but rather simply because he was a demon fox and thus had illusion type powers thanks to that.
See, I hadn't heard that. The author's statement was that he had initially plotted the idea as a school of wizardry and changed it up so as to avoid comparisons with Harry Potter. Maybe he just likes messing with the press. ;)
I am not worried about the Twilight vamp influence creeping into D&D. Most of the Twilight fans are teenage girls right? Not really the type that would play D&D.
The teenage girls that do play D&D might laugh at the concept of the pretty boy vamps from Twilight finding its way into D&D. I see nothing wrong with Twilight and don't know too much about it btw. Just my 2 cents from some things I heard about it.
Again, you would be surprised how many of the fans are grown women.
Its worth remembering that she had absolutely no obligation to do any "research" on vampires whatsoever. Its not like they're real.
This is true, but there's also a certain extent to which one should research the idiom in which one claims to be working so as to be sure that one is making a valid contribution to that idiom. If I were to write a love story about teenagers infected by a virus that has no effect other than giving the host gray skin and creepy black eyes, and called the people thus altered by that virus 'zombies', and claimed that I had thus created a 'zombie movie', I would be doing a disservice not only to genuine zombie movies, but to my own creation as well.
Note that I'm not casting any aspersions on Twilight (the absolute limit of my knowledge is that it has vampires that sparkle in sunlight), as I'm not about to say what qualifies as 'a valid contribution to the vampire idiom', much less whether Twilight does; I'm just refuting the notion that authors of fiction don't need to do any research. Technically they don't in order to write the story, but it's a very good idea to know whether what you have in mind will be received as an homage, a reconstruction, or a deconstruction (just to name a few of the interpretations a new work can garner when building upon an existing mythos) so that you can play to (or avoid) that interpretation and make it look like it was deliberate.
This opinion is silly.
Including anime archetypes does not cause some sort of natural power creep. There is nothing preventing archetypal anime styled powers from being included in the game at level appropriate points, and to level appropriate degrees.
This is so obvious that I feel kind of dumb pointing it out, but I guess I have to. While "moving fast" may be an anime archetypal ninja ability, "200 miles per hour" isn't some sort of intrinsic minimum speed. While throwing fireballs may be an anime archetypal ninja ability (I'm not convinced this is true, but lets just pretend), there's nothing that says that those fireballs have to be of level inappropriate sizes and damage amounts. While flying may be an archetypal anime ninja ability (this is almost definitely false, because jumping, running, and balancing are far, far more common, but lets pretend), there's no reason that the flight granted has to be of level inappropriate durations and speeds.
As far as I am concerned epic in 3.X doesn't exist; its a splat-book with a bunch of bad decisions made semi-canonical. Epic in 4.0 is at best still waiting for players to find a way to break it... again. So when you say "level appropriate" at what point does moving faster than the eye can see for an indefinite duration become "level appropriate" for level 1-20 of any class?
My post was trying to illustrate just how ludicrous most anime abilities are, not address specifically anime "ninja" abilities. So if you wish to argue with me please read further posts of mine, since it is in fact a moot point arguing about anime ninja abilities; they don't have anything to do with D&D in the first place. Mythic ninja abilities have their place in D&D, but anime ninja abilities which are NOT first mythic ninja abilities have No place in D&D.
Naruto has examples of "jumping" which borders on continuous flight, super speed which borders on at will long range teleporting, and striking maneuvers that border on at will instant kills. DBZ has at will/unlimited duration of just about every possible game breaking effect or maneuver that is possible. When most people proffer the suggestion of using anime influences in D&D, those two (and those like them) are very often the foci, and they also happen to be the biggest failures when it comes to natural incorporation.
If you wanted an anime influence in your game the likes of Rurouni Kenshin, Yotoden, or Samurai Champloo, then great. You have low to low-mid powered, semi-historical ninja/samurai-esque influences there with the "unique" style of plot and depiction that makes them anime. In short not a damn thing keeps someone from using "influences" like those in their D&D game because those are already so similar to the kinds of things D&D bases itself on that they are pretty much playable in D&D as it is (or will be once all the classing stuff is completed in fourth).
I won't bother repeating myself any further on my feelings about anime by itself, mythic ninjas in D&D, and the "proper" sourcing for D&D game setting. My other posts explain my positions quite clearly.
MTF
I agree that full on DBZ / Naruto would be obscene and unsuitable for 4E, to request characters of that power level is beyond what 4E allows.
I won't bother repeating myself any further on my feelings about anime by itself, mythic ninjas in D&D, and the "proper" sourcing for D&D game setting. My other posts explain my positions quite clearly.
MTF
You don't need to repeat yourself. Your position was quite clear, and also silly.
Part of including any historical, mythical, fictional, or film archetype in D&D is the process of breaking that archetype apart and making it fit into D&D at the appropriate power levels.
Anime is no different. The fact that some anime series involve characters who move so fast they can't be seen, all day, does not mean that the inclusion of anime in D&D will require that ability to be granted at low level for at wil use. This is so obvious that it shouldn't need said. If a fast moving anime based class were to be created, it would be done exactly the way you'd expect- at low levels, the class would be a little faster than normal. Its limited use abilities would let it move even faster. Eventually, the class would grant the ability to go moderately faster than normal most of the time, and extremely fast once in a while.
Your argument is like claiming that wizards can't be in D&D because in Harry Potter the Killing Curse always hits, kills everyone it hits, allows no save, allows no defense, and can be used at will by someone with the skill to cast it.
GREAT!
I hope anyone that thinks this is a good idea chokes to death tonight.
Its official: Future Releases is the new C******** & C*********.
Edited because if you say the whole name it might follow you home.
I suggest you find yourself some virgin chicken blood with which to annoint you computer, friend. Otherwise, things might get ugly.
Its official: Future Releases is the new Concerns & Criticisms.
OK, sorry, my bad. I guess that I wanted to see something like this:
So I see the ninja being a shadow striker. I'd like to see him/her have some sort of "ninja vanish" encounter or daily ability that lets him/her get an attack from the shadows with extra damage. The Naruto substitution technique would be a good way of doing that (note: I know that the substitution technique was not invented in and is not unique to Naruto).
I think that the explosive notes in the show would make an amazing ability. WotC hasn't, to my knowledge, reintroduced explosive runes, but I like the way the Naruto characters attach the explosive notes to weapons and can set them to explode by some mechanic besides being read.
Shadow clones would be a cool ability, but I agree with them being way too much for a first level character. Any fan of Naruto would also see how "ninja vanish" plus shadow clones makes an amazing combo for multiple surprise attacks and general awesomeness that would be way too much for heroic tier (in fact, the beginning of the series talks about how shadow clones are an upper level technique and only a four characters in the series ever use them).
Add water walk and fast wall/tree climb as utilities, give the class good stealth and the use of poisons and traps, maybe let them have rituals that enhance their non-combat abilities (disguise self, explosive traps of warding, something that will let them turn invisible if they are completely motionless so they can sneak into the king's chamber use their ritual and wait for him to show up alone, again not first level stuff) and you'll have a ninja that is different from the rogue, follows the traditional ninja, and is close enough to Naruto to appease fans.
As for vampires, I've never been a big fan. Since starting this post I read the Monster Manual entry on them and the conversion template in the DMG. They are monsters, but all of the playable races in the second PHB are also going to be monsters. I guess that a half vampire multiclass feat would allow players to embrace the dark characters in their games.
The feat could train the character in athletics and diplomacy (or specialize those already trained). This would allow characters to seem stronger and more attractive/alluring. Half vampires might also get access to some sort of encounter or daily power that emulates some vampire power either from the books or more traditional sources or both (again, not big enough of a fan to come up with anything now).
In conclusion, I won't be surprised when WotC releases a ninja character. Sorry to you ki fans out there, but I think it will be a shadow power class. I believe it will have a familiarity to it that will satisfy Naruto fans, but that familiarity will be due to traditional ninja legends more than an outright effort to emulate the show. As far as a playable vampire . . . well, who knows what will fill the pages of monthly magazines and books in the years to come.
Part of including any historical, mythical, fictional, or film archetype in D&D is the process of breaking that archetype apart and making it fit into D&D at the appropriate power levels.
Anime is no different. The fact that some anime series involve characters who move so fast they can't be seen, all day, does not mean that the inclusion of anime in D&D will require that ability to be granted at low level for at wil use. This is so obvious that it shouldn't need said.
Your argument is like claiming that wizards can't be in D&D because in Harry Potter the Killing Curse always hits, kills everyone it hits, allows no save, allows no defense, and can be used at will by someone with the skill to cast it.
It shouldn't need to be said, but I'd still like to add a QFT. Lots of characters and settings don't benefit from getting too directly translated into D&D, but this does not exclude them from being used as inspiration. Supernatural ninja abilities are no exception, and I see absolutely no reason for why such as class can't find it's way into D&D. I don't watch the show myself, but since D&D already includes lots of concepts from various kinds of fiction, history, and mythologies, I don't think a Naruto-inspired class will necessary feel out of place if done right.
Ok, Classic vampires as you put it are the middle child in the mythos of vampires. cultural folklore is much boarder and can fit much more then Dracula ever could.
Anne Rice has been credited with making the vampire sexy but that just isn't true. It was about sensuality from the beginning.
So no I disagree with you. Could you possibly clarify what you mean by modern and classical views of vampires.
Sorry for snipping so much of you long post but consider it all QFT. The accepted 'original' is no more than what people are used to. I've heard a kids say that a older versions of fairytales are wrong because they aren't like the Disney versions. I've experienced a woman referring to the taste of powered milk as 'real milk', because that was all she ever got in her childhood (in a refugee camp). And likewise, there has been multiple false claims of authenticity regarding the edition wars, like when something removed from 4E is referred to as having always been in D&D even when it only appeared in 3E.
I really think some people need to get off their high horse about this 'new' sexy vampire. And for the sake of peace, I'm not even going to consider the implications of so many protests over pretty boys, from players of a game (in)famous for using lesbianstripperninja-art to appeal to its male audience
I really think some people need to get off their high horse about this 'new' sexy vampire. And for the sake of peace, I'm not even going to consider the implications of so many protests over pretty boys, from players of a game (in)famous for using lesbianstripperninja-art to appeal to its male audience
The most ridiculous thing about the argument against "emo kid metrosexual" vampires is that there wouldn't be any "emo kid metrosexual" mechanics. There is no reason that pretty boy vampires would exist unless players wanted to make them, but then again there is nothing stopping every race in game from being pretty boys right now if thats how a group wanted to run their game.
The most ridiculous thing about the argument against "emo kid metrosexual" vampires is that there wouldn't be any "emo kid metrosexual" mechanics. There is no reason that pretty boy vampires would exist unless players wanted to make them, but then again there is nothing stopping every race in game from being pretty boys right now if thats how a group wanted to run their game.
I'd like to see someone make pretty boy Orcs and Dwarfs.
I'd like to see someone make pretty boy Orcs and Dwarfs.
No, you wouldn't.
I'd like to see someone make pretty boy Orcs and Dwarfs.
As you enter the orc cave in the hillside, you see a pretty boy who speaks to you in giant. He has grey-green skin and his hair is choppy and in his eyes. His teeth are sharp and very shiny. He is quite muscular and young. He's an orc. Who'd of thought?
There ya go.:P
I'd like to see someone make pretty boy Orcs and Dwarfs.
Anyone who is been around fantasy artwork enough has seen sexualized, feminine, female orcs and dwarves. Call them male and you have yourself some pretty boys.
Anyone who is been around fantasy artwork enough has seen sexualized, feminine, female orcs and dwarves. Call them male and you have yourself some pretty boys.
well played sir
I don't go for these Anne Rice, Buffy, Twilight, etc etc etc tragic angsty pretty boys.
Then presumably you'd love every vampire on Buffy except for Angel (post run-in-with-gypsies) and Spike (post-chip-and-then-soul.) The emotionless sociopath monster seems to be par for the course, vampire-wise, on the show. Just look at the reign of Angelus in season 2.
Then presumably you'd love every vampire on Buffy except for Angel (post run-in-with-gypsies) and Spike (post-chip-and-then-soul.) The emotionless sociopath monster seems to be par for the course, vampire-wise, on the show. Just look at the reign of Angelus in season 2.
Angelus was a horrible monster.
Especially, what he did to that poor woman...
That was the appeal of Angelus, at least to me. Vampires should be amoral monsters, imo. And above all they should not appear to have been dipped in a vat of crisco when exposed to sunlight. That's like expecting a panther to stalk through the jungle after its prey with a neon billboard strapped to its back. At least when Dracula walked through the streets of London he didn't glow. [/anti-twilight rant]
Show
Up until then in the series, I thought most of the slayers/good guys pretty much had contractual immortality. To have Jenny Calendar get her neck snapped by the "angsty pretty boy" of the series was completely unexpected at that point and the follow up afterwards makes it to be one of the more memorable deaths in movies/television.
You don't need to repeat yourself. Your position was quite clear, and also silly.
Part of including any historical, mythical, fictional, or film archetype in D&D is the process of breaking that archetype apart and making it fit into D&D at the appropriate power levels.
Anime is no different. The fact that some anime series involve characters who move so fast they can't be seen, all day, does not mean that the inclusion of anime in D&D will require that ability to be granted at low level for at wil use. This is so obvious that it shouldn't need said. If a fast moving anime based class were to be created, it would be done exactly the way you'd expect- at low levels, the class would be a little faster than normal. Its limited use abilities would let it move even faster. Eventually, the class would grant the ability to go moderately faster than normal most of the time, and extremely fast once in a while.
Your argument is like claiming that wizards can't be in D&D because in Harry Potter the Killing Curse always hits, kills everyone it hits, allows no save, allows no defense, and can be used at will by someone with the skill to cast it.
No my argument is: A) that anything that anime includes that is not FIRST a part of the fantasy mythos CANNOT ever be allowed to be a part of D&D & B) That anything of a grossly overpowered nature (which most of the popular animes have) cannot evidence itself in any part of the fantasy mythos (of any culture) & Therefore C) Vast swaths of popular animes are inappropriate for inclusion into D&D.
This is a syllogism and is so simple that I think your arguing against it is silly.
Viktor: I have watched quite a few episodes of Naruto; My brother is quite the fan and happens to even play in some Naruto forum RPGs. So I can safely say that mirror jumping; ice/water prison, sharingan, and most shadow jutsus are way ridiculous. Anyone who could perform anything like the above should control the world if the vast majority of people were "normals." I will admit that Naruto isn't the cosmic power **** up that DBZ is, but let's be honest now: Ninjas must necessarily run the world in the world of Naruto; And D&D can't allow that (as a standard; if a DM wants to a run a world like that, then that's fine, but every world would be run by ninjas whether the DM liked or not if all ninjas could and did have power of that level).
MTF
The most ridiculous thing about the argument against "emo kid metrosexual" vampires is that there wouldn't be any "emo kid metrosexual" mechanics. There is no reason that pretty boy vampires would exist unless players wanted to make them, but then again there is nothing stopping every race in game from being pretty boys right now if thats how a group wanted to run their game.
Yeah, that too. I'm pretty amazed that so many people seem to completely oppose something as inspiration, simply because they don't like the appearance of some characters. We're mainly taking mechanics and mythology here, not just the way it looks. That being said, I'm in favour of prettyboys being included in D&D art, especially considering how neutral and non-offensive they are compared to lesbian stripper ninjas.
No my argument is: A) that anything that anime includes that is not FIRST a part of the fantasy mythos CANNOT ever be allowed to be a part of D&D
And how does something become part this 'fantasy mythos' in the first place? It seems to me that everything must be done a first time once. Also, the definition of the genre 'fantasy' is “a genre that uses magic and other supernatural forms as a primary element of plot, theme, and/or setting” (wikipedia) or “an imaginative or fanciful work, esp. one dealing with supernatural or unnatural events or characters”/“Fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements” (dictionary), there is no requirement for it to be Euro-centric, take place in a medieval-inspired environment, or anything like that. While it might not be the fantasy you're used to, Naruto seems to fit the bill.
& B) That anything of a grossly overpowered nature (which most of the popular animes have) cannot evidence itself in any part of the fantasy mythos (of any culture)
Why? Lots of super powerful things have been included in D&D and scaled down, and lots of mundane things have been included and scaled up. In some stories, the heroes start out as insignificant and grow in power while gradually getting more and more formidable enemies, while many others stories stick to roughly the same level of power, high or low. D&D supports various levels of power, from characters who have to struggle to bring down a single orc warrior, to characters being aspiring gods.
Viktor: I have watched quite a few episodes of Naruto; My brother is quite the fan and happens to even play in some Naruto forum RPGs. So I can safely say that mirror jumping; ice/water prison, sharingan, and most shadow jutsus are way ridiculous. Anyone who could perform anything like the above should control the world if the vast majority of people were "normals."
And what's preventing people from using powers in the style of Naruto, but scaled down to a more appropriate power level? Most iconic wizards have been immensely powerful compared to the rest of the world (Merlin, Gandalf, Elminster), but that doesn't prevent first level wizards from having to rely on the protection of warriors in D&D (until they reach the level of Elminster, that is) ;).
No my argument is: A) that anything that anime includes that is not FIRST a part of the fantasy mythos CANNOT ever be allowed to be a part of D&D & B) That anything of a grossly overpowered nature (which most of the popular animes have) cannot evidence itself in any part of the fantasy mythos (of any culture) & Therefore C) Vast swaths of popular animes are inappropriate for inclusion into D&D.
I cant argue with your personal opinion concerning your first point since it just that: your personal opinion. Your second point is just patently wrong however.
"Anything of a grossly overpowered nature cannot evidence itself in any part of fantasy mythos"? Really? Really? This is a fairly ridiculous claim when we have hercules holding up the earth itself, beowulf ripping the arms of of giant monsters with his bare hands and celtic heroes that cleave mountains in 2. There are plenty of examples in traditional mythology that make naruto look tame.
No my argument is: A) that anything that anime includes that is not FIRST a part of the fantasy mythos CANNOT ever be allowed to be a part of D&D & B) That anything of a grossly overpowered nature (which most of the popular animes have) cannot evidence itself in any part of the fantasy mythos (of any culture) & Therefore C) Vast swaths of popular animes are inappropriate for inclusion into D&D.
This is a syllogism and is so simple that I think your arguing against it is silly.
Go back to earlier in this thread.
Read what you ACTUALLY wrote, specifically, the overly bold assertion that anime is intrinsically overpowered.
Then feel silly.
Also, your syllogism is overly complex. You could trim it down to three points without losing any content.
Also, your underlying logic is flawed, because you can convey tropes while also interpreting them to meet the expected power level. This is done all the time in RPG creation.
While I don't think the 'diamond dust skin' look would work for most vamps in D&D it was an interesting take on a 'reality vs. myth' of why vampires avoided sunlight which has been used in many modern interpretations of vampires. This is in the lines of religious elements only working on those who believe they will (Anne Rice). Also garlic just has a strong smell to a vampire's enhanced senses so they dislike it but it's no real ward and does no real damage (many sources).
In some tellings vampires have to bite to create more, in others they can breed amognst themselves or with humans to make hybrids (like Blade).
Also in Twilight the male lead and his family were 'renegades' amongst vampires because they didn't feed on humans, which is also why their skin was paler since they didn't have the 'fresh food' to make them look more like a living human. This again isn't new to Twilight, either in the 'vamp vegitarian' or unfed = pale / fed = normal looks.
Personally I'll not throw Twilight vampires into D&D but I thought the sunlight aspect was an interesting take. That was the only thing I saw that made Twilight vamps any different than most other modern takes on vampires.
What I've been thinking of doing though is altering the Eladrin to be more like the elves in Hellboy II complete with turning into alabaster when killed. The forest god/elemental also would work well as a fey creature I think.
When asked about his influences, he says:
We started with the old-school stuff. However I think there's been some interesting work done with the Fey in modern fantasy/sci fi/romance literature, from say Jim Butcher to Justina Robson,
and later Rogers says...
Big chunks of the mythos are built on more modern parallels. Gnomes are guerilla fighters. The Isle of Dread is very much "unstuck" in time and space -- squint closely, and you'll see a Lost reference or two in there. Although it wasn't conscious, rereading the Feywild entry I can't help but notice some Guillermo del Toro/Pan’s Labyrinth influences. There may be some Cthulhu mixed in with my Fomorian legends. Readers of Sandman might recognize some of Queen Tiandra's habits.
The staff obviously gets inspiration from all sorts of contemporary sources, just as it should be. A good idea is a good idea, regardless of its origin, and there is absolutely no reason for slavish devotion to particular traditional standards when there is a lot of creativity out there. Tolkien's work came out quite awhile ago at this point but dont forget that when DnD was conceived, his work was very much "pop culture" (not that isn't still, mind you ;) ).
Part of irony here is that much of DnD has always been lifted from pop culture. Gygax was heavily influenced by pulp fiction, and a lot of his creations reflect this.
Elvish mother ****er, do you speak it!?!?
Viktor: I have watched quite a few episodes of Naruto; My brother is quite the fan and happens to even play in some Naruto forum RPGs. So I can safely say that mirror jumping; ice/water prison, sharingan, and most shadow jutsus are way ridiculous. Anyone who could perform anything like the above should control the world if the vast majority of people were "normals." I will admit that Naruto isn't the cosmic power **** up that DBZ is, but let's be honest now: Ninjas must necessarily run the world in the world of Naruto; And D&D can't allow that (as a standard; if a DM wants to a run a world like that, then that's fine, but every world would be run by ninjas whether the DM liked or not if all ninjas could and did have power of that level).
MTF
So I take it your against spells like Wish, Skate, Equillbrium, Lahar, Tsunami, and basically anything above level 4 spells? Cause thats what I'm getting. And honestly Haku's Ice Prison, OP? Shika's Shadow Possessions with one of the most obivous weaknesses OP? The clones that can only take one good hit OP? Shadow Evo-I mean Sharigan OP? Seriously, I can tell your just grasping for straws, so much crap in D&D is way more overpowered than any of the examples you gave and just about everything that does happen in Naruto.
Look at frikin Elminster and any Wizard pre 4E that was above level 12, they were using spells that fundamently changed reality. And I'm not even going to get started on that last bit.
Is that really so scary and powerful? Let's not pick on the poor vampires. :P lol
And let us not forget the REAL vampires of the world. Those who have lupus. Lupus causes the gums to shrink back, giving the appearance of long canines. This condition also made the skin pale and very sensitive to the sun. If someone with lupus stood in the sun for a half hour they would be badly burned. And lastly, those with lupus can't break down proteins very well, so way back when people with lupus would drink goats blood, which already had broken down proteins that their bodies could use.
Is that really so scary and powerful? Let's not pick on the poor vampires. :P lol
This felt midly appropriate
So, as a side note, I thought I should mention a reason WHY Twilight vampires should be kept out of D&D. Its because they are horribly overpowered. Regular vampires just suck blood, a metaphor for the life of an individual. On the other hand, Twilight vampires suck so much that they drain the life of the vampire genre, leaving behind nothing but a lame and drained husk. Adding them to the game would threaten to do the same to D&D. :P
The vampire genre was a n00b, I bet D&D could pwn them.
I wrote that most efforts to include anime influences were overpowered and that popular anime was overpowered. I have said time and time again that there are certain animes that would not be overpowered, but that this didn't matter since those animes tended be ones which cleaved most closely mythic history and therefore were valid for inclusion into D&D.
What I actually wrote amounted to this (time and time again):
"You can and should allow mystical ninja and monk abilities into the game (for the right campaign setting), but they need to be toned down versions what Naruto and DBZ offer."
And no the underlying logic is not unsound. It is a sound argument plain and simple. Anything of a grossly overpowered nature could in fact be trimmed down to meet expected power levels, but would still not be a part of the fantasy mythos (of any culture). It would still be something uniquely anime, and therefore not appropriate for inclusion in D&D.
Side note: Exactly how are you going to simplify that syllogism. I see no Occam's Razor violation.
Viktor: My relationship with high level spells is complicated (love hate doesn't quite do it justice). I have argued many times that wizards should in fact control the world of D&D on these forums. But no, by themselves, high level spells are not enough to warrant domination (though some of them are too ridiculous not to fundamentally alter the structures of the world and how war is conducted, which speaks to me of gross game imbalance, and should therefore be removed from the game). What does warrant domination is: ease of use, low to negligible limitation on use (both when, where, and how many times), and how influential the effect is.
Unlimited teleports between mirrors at a rate virtually untrackable by the human eye along with multiple attacks is broke. Stopping someone from doing anything including almost all uses of chakra (casting spells) just by touching them or getting near them (with no real limitation on how many times per day it can be used is busted). I may give you possession as having an obvious weakness, but are you seriously going to tell me that virtually unlimited mirror image spells per day wouldn't be busted? And sharingan does more than just shadow evocation. Kakashi (who is a badass no question) uses it to create subtle mind control with basically no saving throw as long as the target isn't aware of it. Here's to ninja's ruling the world through a mass hypnosis ambush (no one knows they can do it... yet).
Erato:
Good try. Using fantasy as an archtype of story telling rather than a genre in your definition was close. But fantasy (as in fanciful story telling) includes horror (most of it anyway), sci-fi, and steam-punk as well. Yet it would be inappropriate to include Godzilla in D&D (as is, not modified); it would be inappropriate to include Aliens in D&D; and it would be inappropriate to have character's creating lasers in D&D. Just because a story is fanciful or prone to supernatural (or otherwise extraordinary) events occurring does not necessarily make it right for D&D.
D&D's genre is more specifically High Fantasy. And that is not necessarily eurocentric (though most of the work done in the realm of high fantasy that we see influencing D&D does tend to be predominantly European in origin); the mythic stories from the east are just as valid for inclusion into D&D (with the caveat as always being: in the right campaign setting) as the mythic stories from the west (and this just as surely can include tales of heroism and mythology from native americans as well; again in the right campaign setting). High Fantasy is a fictional portrayal of mythic history (those stories that cultures tell as part of the creation of the world or as part of their foundation, and tended to be epic in form); so Quetzalcoatl, Gilgamesh, and Tripitaka (china) are all valid influences for D&D.
Anything that is valid for inclusion into D&D must be scaled to D&D's power level. This is unassailably true. But just because something can be scaled to D&D's power level does not mean it is valid for inclusion into D&D. First something must have its origins in the mythologies. Now as to what constitutes a "proper" degree of relationship is certainly a matter of opinion: clearly DBZ's "degree" of relationship between planet busting fireballs and mythic monk stories is too disparate for inclusion. Naruto has a closer relationship to mythic ninja stories than DBZ does to mythic monk stories, but I would continue to contend that the relationship is too disparate (just how many stories have something close to the powers and level of power that Naruto presents) for inclusion (I think Yotoden is a much better approximation of what should be valid). Whereas if you wanted your Samurais in your D&D game to be similar to what's shown in Rurouni Kenshin or Samurai Champloo, then you certainly wouldn't get any arguments from me (in fact I would say watching those two shows should give you ideas for what sort of abilities to give samurais).
MTF
Unlimited teleports between mirrors at a rate virtually untrackable by the human eye along with multiple attacks is broke. Stopping someone from doing anything including almost all uses of chakra (casting spells) just by touching them or getting near them (with no real limitation on how many times per day it can be used is busted). I may give you possession as having an obvious weakness, but are you seriously going to tell me that virtually unlimited mirror image spells per day wouldn't be busted? And sharingan does more than just shadow evocation. Kakashi (who is a badass no question) uses it to create subtle mind control with basically no saving throw as long as the target isn't aware of it. Here's to ninja's ruling the world through a mass hypnosis ambush (no one knows they can do it... yet).
MTF
You could make the shadow clones all minions with a lower attack bonuses, damage and fewer abilities. This makes them really low powered, but still very useful. As long as you don't have the nine tails sealed in your body, use of the clones would be very limited. You could just power all these abilities down, or give everyone the use of an ability that's equally poweful. It really just depends on what you and your players can agree on. A game is only as good as you make it. I made a naruto-like guy who can make five clones each turn that vanished at the end of his next turn, so he could have up to ten at once. He still got his ass kicked. Good times.
However, when you say you have a "naruto themed" character that is powered down what you are really saying is I have a mythic ninja character that is mostly based in mythic history but has a few anime influences to add some spice.
A little spice can add zest to your soup/campaign. But too much spice and you spoil the broth/campaign.
MTF
I think everyone essentially agrees: having influences from things like Naruto / DBZ cannot occur exactly as presented originally, as that's just too powerful for D&D.
It is, however, alright if those abilities are toned down to the scale of D&D, so there is a demonstrated influence.
I think you're confusing people with your applications of "themed" and "influenced".
I think everyone essentially agrees: having influences from things like Naruto / DBZ cannot occur exactly as presented originally, as that's just too powerful for D&D.
It is, however, alright if those abilities are toned down to the scale of D&D, so there is a demonstrated influence.
Though immortality is an ability that won't have a need for being toned down in 4e, haha. Quite a few epic destinies keep characters from their deaths.
Last edition we had shadow jumper builds that could teleport 3 times a round and make a full attack after each teleport. We had artificers that could blast people with 1000 point orbs of acid, at will. We had druids who could turn invisible at-will, had a perfect fly speed, were immune to magic and had a giant dinosaur companion, all while casting spells. We had 15' tall psiwars with spiked chains made of crystal dominating people 20' away. Really, any of the naruto stuff ive seen would be a toned down version of 3.5.
I might be biased, but I feel that ninja and monks are as far out of place in high fantasy as rapiers and cross bows; neither groups were part of Medieval Europe (the second group was unavailable until the Renneisance) and neither group shows up in Tolkien's writings. Legends of Sasuke Sarutobi began surfacing around the same time that Lovecraft was writing about Cthulu and both came before Tolkien. Legends also have Sasuke Sarutobi living around 800 AD. Sure that doesn't put him at the dawn of time, but Aragon and his rangers missed that mark too.
I know this thread is talking about pop culture, namely Naruto, and not classic traditions, but it doesn't take long to see where the legends of Sasuke Sarutobi have influenced the series. No one can deny either that the wizard is more like JK Rowley's Dumbledore than Bernard Cornwell's Merlin. I feel that the high fantasy arguement is just a euphanism for "it doesn't fit my imagination."
(I know that Merlin is a druid in The Warlord Chronicles, but that doesn't change the fact that fantastic characters become mundane and unlike D&D heroes if we try too hard to fit them into more "traditional" or "historical" roles.)
I appreciate Rich Burlew's approach on the idea of multiple cultures in a D&D setting. The Players Handbook says the wolrd is ancient and huge; what's to keep multiple cultures from being spread across the land with their own traditions? If heroes can travel between the planes, then why can't they get across the continent to meet people with different abilities? The different species are called races, but the difference between dragonborn and tiefling is not the same as the difference between South African and Mongolian.
I'm against reflavoring the rogue and selling it in a new book as a ninja (players can do that without buying new books.) This means that the ninja needs to be more mystical than the rogue to be different. If the WotC team wants to get some inspiration for how to make the ninja more mystical, then why can't they look to a very popular show that many of their fans enjoy? There are many abilities in the show that aren't available in any character build that I'd like to be able to use (I listed many of them in another post in this forum and I don't think they're overpowered if done correctly, but I'll give my definition of correctly if someone asks). I know we don't want to see power creep, but I think they've done a good job in the last year of keeping it down.
I'm sorry if I offend anyone with my unwillingness to understand what "high fantasy" is, but I've never heard it defined in a way that would explain why some of the things in D&D are OK whike others are not. It just seems to me that "high fantasy" is a matter of personal oppinion or a DM unwilling to say "yes." I feel that WotC would benefit from developing mechanics so their fans can play characters they like without homebrewing since a player with a homebrew character has a harder time discussing the awesomeness of their character with other palyers.
Again, you would be surprised how many of the fans are grown women.
I figure there are more 18+ women playing D&D than teenage girls.
What I meant was that most women that play D&D, young and old probably are not swayed too much by Twilight.
MTF, Why do you say that something must be part of Mythology before it can be included in D&D?
Hear, Hear. Magic of Incarnum was NOT part of mythology, yet was still an AWESOME addition to the game.
Hear, Hear. Magic of Incarnum was NOT part of mythology, yet was still an AWESOME addition to the game.
Probably because if its not Tolkiens crap (I don't like Tolkien) or Eurocentric its not real fantasy or some such ********.
No my argument is: A) that anything that anime includes that is not FIRST a part of the fantasy mythos CANNOT ever be allowed to be a part of D&D & B) That anything of a grossly overpowered nature (which most of the popular animes have) cannot evidence itself in any part of the fantasy mythos (of any culture) & Therefore C) Vast swaths of popular animes are inappropriate for inclusion into D&D.
This is a syllogism and is so simple that I think your arguing against it is silly.
Why be so exclusive of anime? It makes very little sense. I know quite a few novels, movies, and folk lore where I would use the same judging methods.
A) If it doesn't fit the fantasy genre you're using don't allow it. The definition that we've used for fantasy is pretty broad... inclusive of sci-fi, horror, fantasy, and steam-punk. Boil this down to... "If you can't adapt it don't use it." I've stolen some plots, characters, and even technology to mix into my game that is hardly fantasy.
B) So realistically, if its 'unbelieveably power don't use it.' This should apply to basically any concept you want to use in your game. If it involves destroying galaxies, continents, or the like in an eyeblink... maybe you should reconsider. I'd hardly add Cthuluesque PC to my game, based on the suddeness of its ability to end the rest of the game.
C So basically, "whole swaths of folklore, mythology and the fantasy are unuseable in creating a fun fantasy game."
It realistically is less about anime and more about what content to add in general.
Ausolion/KA: Something has to be sourced in mythology (not the same as being an actual part of it). You can't just flat copy mythology's characters, stories, and to some extent events and abilities. That would quickly lose people's interests or seem uncreative. But in order to be a part of "High Fantasy" it needs to be sourced in mythology; meaning that the story forms a kind of "mythic history." So a particular campaign setting becomes a kind of "golden age" of mythos for a given universes timeline (this is why D&D isn't played in modern day like world of darkness, but rather at the peak of sword and sorcery).
If High Fantasy allowed just any kind of fanciful story-telling and/or plot devices into it, then we wouldn't be playing dungeons and dragons; we would be playing FLCL meets Pink Floyd on acid where just about anything goes (the mechanics might all be the same, but the flavor of everything would clearly be wrong). So while there are in fact multiple branches under "Fantasy" in order to qualify as "High Fantasy" there needs to be a clear differentiation from other types of "Fantasy," and that difference must necessarily be a function of sourcing.
It's all well and good to let anime tropes influence your game. If you think things like "implacable man" (see tvtropes.org if you are interested in looking at tropes found in various genre across multiple media, not just TV) is a good idea for your game, then by all means include anime influences, but at no point is a direct port of most animes even allowable for a "High Fantasy" game, and as far as thematic alteration to create something closer to an anime environment goes, this should not be the standard by which the game presents itself to the player-base. If Wizards wants to present alternative classes to use in high-powered setting that are influenced by anime tropes, then that is a decent idea and one that is clearly tenable. But if, on the other hand, you presuppose this a good idea for the game, in general, then you run into problems of internal consistency in the game world (vis a vis major alterations of world institutions like: architecture, war, schooling, housing, and occupations).
Similar to the old argument that a feat that anyone must take is bad game design; any class ability that forces a nation to make use of it (or risk annihilation) is a bad class ability. The most basic level of strategy is that which is seen in "Rock Paper Scissors." What happens when rock beats both paper and scissors? The game stalemates (assuming both players are aware of this condition) as rock becomes the only play that a player can make. Now obviously D&D balancing requires something just a bit more complex than a 3 action system, but the principle remains the same. If ever an option becomes so powerful that it alters the entire field of options, then it stands to reason that it is too powerful to allow in. Does anyone feel that including "Death Notes" for character's to possess should they desire it would be a good idea?
The latter of these two arguments of mine is one that is (if not easily) fixable. You can, as many have pointed out, scale down powers to fit the predominant level of power attainable by characters at a given level. What cannot be done (unless it is already the case) is provide additional closeness (in terms of sourcing) to something that is already far removed. So if the abilities a given character desires are closely tied to the mythic history of the real world or the mythic history of an imagined world, then it is probably a good idea to include in D&D (in some form; some revision is necessary). But if something is third or fourth generation removed from some form of mythic history, then I would posit that it isn't a valid option for inclusion into D&D (theoretically you could tie just about anything together with something else if you look hard enough and are willing to allow for any number of connectives).
MTF
Swords are classically used in mythic stories. There is a wealth of data on the symbolic aspect of sword use in stories. So while, the sword itself is not sourced in mythology (obviously a sword is real), the use of a sword is a staple of mythic story-telling. King Arthur's use of Excalibur right?
What makes high fantasy what it is, is being able to source itself in mythic story-telling (the mythos need not be a real world one; it could be a mythos contained entirely in a fictional world). Otherwise you just have fantasy, and that includes almost everything under the sun. Pink bunnies with ribbons for hair, Predator Aliens, and the evil temporal duplicate of King Henry the Eighth would all be just as valid for inclusion in the Monster Manual as a vampire.
Example: Alignment exists in D&D because Good versus Evil is a classical element of mythic stories and hence those stories which are based upon or similar in style will have such an element. Look at those stories which are "High Fantasy" and you will often see a theme of "Good versus Evil" some where in it. Can you say the same for often seeing mutation, aliens, warp travel, or flying saucers? Those are all elements in fantasy, but not High Fantasy and that distinction is what is critical.
MTF
Ausolion:
Swords are classically used in mythic stories. There is a wealth of data on the symbolic aspect of sword use in stories. So while, the sword itself is not sourced in mythology (obviously a sword is real), the use of a sword is a staple of mythic story-telling. King Arthur's use of Excalibur right?
What makes high fantasy what it is, is being able to source itself in mythic story-telling (the mythos need not be a real world one; it could be a mythos contained entirely in a fictional world). Otherwise you just have fantasy, and that includes almost everything under the sun. Pink bunnies with ribbons for hair, Predator Aliens, and the evil temporal duplicate of King Henry the Eighth would all be just as valid for inclusion in the Monster Manual as a vampire.
Example: Alignment exists in D&D because Good versus Evil is a classical element of mythic stories and hence those stories which are based upon or similar in style will have such an element. Look at those stories which are "High Fantasy" and you will often see a theme of "Good versus Evil" some where in it. Can you say the same for often seeing mutation, aliens, warp travel, or flying saucers? Those are all elements in fantasy, but not High Fantasy and that distinction is what is critical.
MTF
I was only teasing, I know what he meant. Good knowing you have the knowledge to back it up though :P
I figure there are more 18+ women playing D&D than teenage girls.
What I meant was that most women that play D&D, young and old probably are not swayed too much by Twilight.
You are probably right in the sense of understanding game mechanics enough to understand the limitations and how much most of that is stripping vampires of their weaknesses and adding moral limitations to compensate.
They are very many women who are fans of DnD and the other sexy vampire series out there.
One of the Authors I mentioned who writes the stuff, Laurell K. Hamilton, used to play DnD probably back in 2nd ed but still.
To say there isn't a fan base would be a bad call. If my personal experience is any indicator, then the percentage of female gamers into this stuff is really high up their.
I am not talking about Twilight so much as what the Twlight vampires were G-rated versions of. (I know the movie is PG-13 but if you compared it to the "big girl" books out there they will look G.)
Not to say I haven't met guys who do like the theme or women who hate it.
I know more grown ups who watch Anime then children. My 59yr old father is a big fan of Ghost in the Shell.
It isn't always an issue of those ideas so much being childish as it would be easiest to play many of them that way in a like DnD.
Succubi/Incubi cretures have always been closer to the vampires I image then the vampires in the MM. So if you want a creature like the Twilight guys modify the fluff and mechanics for one of those. For one thing it has a feeding ability. That was how I did it in 3/3.5. (Also I gave it no alignment restrictions.) I will try to make one for 4th ed. My sex vamps will be completely different.
Final thing I have to say on the issue of vampires. I want to most basic vampire available. Whatever that maybe and I would greatly like to have ways to modify it. No one I know agrees completely on ideas about these luscious creatures of the night.
So it will never come close to making everyone happy until they get treated like the game treats Dragons.
Variety, lots of Variety
But really. I've explicitly read that the designers are trying to draw their inspiration from pop culture, and several sources were specifically cited- Final Fantasy, Avatar, Naruto, and Bleach to name a few anime. I wish I could remember the source... Maybe races and classes?
But the point is simply that it is no way outlandish to hope for some more charismatic or playable alternative to a vampire, nor is it outlandish to hope for a fresh look at the ninja class. If it's popular, I'm sure we can guess they'll give it a look. And it'll scale to DnD. I see no reason to assume that because characters in Naruto can move so fast that you can't see them do it would translate into 15 squares of movement in DnD. That's what utility powers are for. Now stop being sticks in the mud and chill out. I don't see why people are so against others happily fulfilling their fantasy archetypes in game. You've got your dry elf rangers, so everyone else should be happy, huh?
But please, no vampires that sparkle in the sunlight. Screw hypocrisy, that's just LAME.
If it was possible to make it fit mechanically, I would support their inclusion for one simple reason: I may not like them, but someone else clearly does, and were I to begrudge them their fun and argue that they shouldn't be permitted to have it, well, I'd probably be a horrible little person. And I don't want that.
we would be playing FLCL meets Pink Floyd on acid where just about anything goes (the mechanics might all be the same, but the flavor of everything would clearly be wrong).
This is where I stopped because you just mentioned two of my faveorite things on earth (Fool Cooly, yes, its so cool that it counts as two sperate things) and two semi lame things that are cool by being assciated with said cool things. I must run a game based on this now.
MTF, I guess I have a better handle on what you meant. That said, I think it's important to remember that High-Fanstasy is a rather vague grouping, and that by your line of reasoning Warhammer 40K could be conisdered high fantasy.
Considering that Warhammer 40k was originally fantasy in space, it wouldn't be that hard of a stretch. Especially when you consider that you can play as Orcs, Eldar, and Dark Eldar.
RIP Squats
Considering that Warhammer 40k was originally fantasy in space, it wouldn't be that hard of a stretch. Especially when you consider that you can play as Orcs, Eldar, and Dark Eldar.
RIP Squats
That is true..
This as a whole, would not be so big for most groups I don't think. But for those who are die hard fans, they might love the hell out of them.
I wonder if wizards would ever make books with classes for fans of pop culture. Like a naruto class book that has a class for each character, or a street fighter book that does the same. Heroes? Yu Yu Hakusho? Prince of Persia? Avatar: The Last Airbender? Legend of Zelda? Final Fantasy? Super Smash Brothers Brawl? Sad I can mostly only think of anime right now.
This as a whole, would not be so big for most groups I don't think. But for those who are die hard fans, they might love the hell out of them.
Living Room Games was making a Street Fighter d20 game at one point but it fell through. If i recall, the class set-up was similar to modern, with generic classes like "tough fighter" and "strong fighter". I doubt we'll see anything similar from WotC, since these kind of books would be very niche products.
I wonder if wizards would ever make books with classes for fans of pop culture. Like a naruto class book that has a class for each character, or a street fighter book that does the same. Heroes? Yu Yu Hakusho? Prince of Persia? Avatar: The Last Airbender? Legend of Zelda? Final Fantasy? Super Smash Brothers Brawl? Sad I can mostly only think of anime right now.
This as a whole, would not be so big for most groups I don't think. But for those who are die hard fans, they might love the hell out of them.
I doubt the viability of this idea. There's simply too narrow a gap between 'such a big fan that I'd buy content that lets me play my favourite character' and 'such a big fan that I've already homebrewed content that lets me play my favourite character'.
3e could probably have pulled it off, because its design was sufficiently obfuscatory that it discouraged casual modification*, but it's just stupid easy to modify the flavour of 4e content to fit what you want**.
__
* I know that some of you disagree. Shut up. I don't care.
** The faintest moment of thought turned a relatively flavourless 'Dwarf/Wizard' into 'Toph Bei Fong: Greatest Earthbender Alive', and I'd already redesigned the Druid preview into a 4e Psychic Warrior before I finished reading the article.
We already have the classic "historical" ninja represented by the Rogue class. It works perfectly in that role. However, there is another idea of the Ninja that is equally valid that is a lot of fun in its own right, and would work well as some kind of Ki, Arcane, Shadow, or maybe Elemental (if anyone figures out what that means) class.
Ninjas who trick their enemies into attacking logs, walk across water, trick their foes with illusion and mind tricks, ride giant frogs, transform into weird creatures, invoke the power of magic scrolls, and other such fantastic things are extremely common in some parts of pop culture, and have been for a long time. At the very least, I have seen videogames and anime with ninja exactly like that for years before Naruto was ever published. Such a ninja is not a unique creation of Masashi Kishimoto and his Naruto series at all. In Japan, the term "ninja" is almost synonymous with "magician". In many ways, ninja can be seen as wizards who are more skilled with weapons and quicker on their feet. I don't see anything wrong in the least with building a D&D class around that concept.
Truthfully, I really don't think almost anything is outside the possibility of being included in D&D to some degree or another. Given the right setting or implementation, you could probably put anything into the game. The fact that D&D includes things as incredibly diverse and strange as Lovecraftian horror, Vance's Dying Earth science fiction/fantasy stories, myth, Conan the Barbarian, the Soul Calibur videogames (read Tome of Battle's intro blurb again if you doubt), Tolkien, and real-world history is proof enough that D&D is far from being focused on a limited genre of "High Fantasy" or a particular canonical group of influences.
Honestly, I would want to see more anime influence on D&D simply because it helps move the game closer to properly emulating the great heroes of myth and legend. Seriously, nothing in D&D even compares to old grannies who can decapitate men with a quick backhanded blow or monkey gods who can leap the distance of India while carrying a mountain, and I think that is a limitation of the game.
I'd go with what Halfrican said (including the bit about sparkly sun-vampires; that is just kind of silly).
I suppose Gygax and the original TSR crew need to be told they can't put aliens in D&D since Expidition to the Barrier Peaks (one of the early and VERY popular AD&D modules) involves a crashed space ship complete with alien life forms, computers, access ID cards. Any observant player would pick up on this right away but the module describes the environment in a way that a non-technologically advanced culture would percieve such items. Think Ash in Army of Darkness talking about his 'boom stick'.
The 2e/3e gnomes were prime examples of steampunk tech in D&D. Sure not everyone liked them (partially because Dragonlance turned them into comic relief) but it showed they could be included in D&D without 'breaking it'.
Lovecraft goth noir, steampunk, elves in space (Spelljammer), and future tech can all fit in D&D as long as the DM wants to. The 4e DMG is clear on this by even offering suggestions on how to take the existing powers, classes, etc. and refluffing them to fit a different 'theme'. My favorite in that list was for wuxia and how the teleport powers just become high leaps or very fast movement.
D&D is not limited to High Fantasy/High Magic. As shown in the 4e DMG and other places throughtout D&D history it can apply to non-Euro mythos, pop culture, high and low fantasy (Tolkein is actually closer to low-fantasy and low-magic), high and low magic.
Just to be clear, "high fantasy" and "high magic" are not necessarily synonymous. High fantasy simply demands that we have a story set in a fantastic location with the main theme being the conflict between Good and Evil. Tolkein's LotR is most certainly high fantasy, but then again so is Star Wars.
Meh I prefer my vampires to be monsters. A twisted evil bloodsucking mockery of the person they used to be. No emotions, no morals, just the hunger, true sociopaths.
I don't go for these Anne Rice, Buffy, Twilight, etc etc etc tragic angsty pretty boys.
Bless you, I thought I was the only one left on Earth anymore that ever liked a monstrous vampire instead of these self loathing, euro trashy, emo variety. However if I never saw another ninja or vampire again then I would be fine since they have both been done to death and make me throw up in my mouth a little with each new rendition. Each remake hits the world stage believing themselves to be new and refreshing when they are in fact possibly less original than their predecessors. Much like how everyone who plays a dark elf is Drizzt in some fashion, or every wizard is Raistlin Majere. In my opinion, vamps and ninjas as concepts are tired as hell, let 'em rest in peace.
(snip)...
D&D does not, and should not, change simply because one or two examples in a genre superficially change. D&D is supposed to get at the root of fantasy (horror and sci-fi are just sub-types of fantasy), and that means using archtypes; not using one individual author's interpretation of something.
(snip)...
MTF
QFT
Hear, Hear. Magic of Incarnum was NOT part of mythology, yet was still an AWESOME addition to the game.
A number of the soulmelds are modeled on classical monsters (Unicorns, Phoenix, Lamia, Manticore etc.)
Chakra are pretty much Eastern Mysticism 101.
Bless you, I thought I was the only one left on Earth anymore that ever liked a monstrous vampire instead of these self loathing, euro trashy, emo variety. However if I never saw another ninja or vampire again then I would be fine since they have both been done to death and make me throw up in my mouth a little with each new rendition. Each remake hits the world stage believing themselves to be new and refreshing when they are in fact possibly less original than their predecessors. Much like how everyone who plays a dark elf is Drizzt in some fashion, or every wizard is Raistlin Majere. In my opinion, vamps and ninjas as concepts are tired as hell, let 'em rest in peace.
Dude, you hit that one square! Natural 20 with maxed out bonus damage! I can remember when Ninjas were cool (Yes, I'm that old. I was a teenager in the 80's), and the movies were good. I even remember when Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were the rage, but that was about the end of it.
And what, besides perhaps the Dragon itself, can provide the depth of villainy that the Vampire can offer the right game? I can think of no greater villain for a horror campaign than the prince of the night. Seriously, Van Helsing would take one look at these current offerings and laugh so hard he could no longer breathe!
Dude, you hit that one square! Natural 20 with maxed out bonus damage! I can remember when Ninjas were cool (Yes, I'm that old. I was a teenager in the 80's), and the movies were good. I even remember when Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were the rage, but that was about the end of it.
And what, besides perhaps the Dragon itself, can provide the depth of villainy that the Vampire can offer the right game? I can think of no greater villain for a horror campaign than the prince of the night. Seriously, Van Helsing would take one look at these current offerings and laugh so hard he could no longer breathe!
Are you trying to be sarcastic or do you really mean this?
Every generation remembers their own childhood stuff as being totally awesome, and thinks the next generation's stuff is lame. The secret is that its all lame. But you were like 8 years old then, so you didn't know.
Are you trying to be sarcastic or do you really mean this?
Every generation remembers their own childhood stuff as being totally awesome, and thinks the next generation's stuff is lame. The secret is that its all lame. But you were like 8 years old then, so you didn't know.
You have a point. I was actually in my late teens when TNMT came out, and remember the deliberate cheese of the show was what I liked most.
My first exposure to the Ninja was a show called "The Master" that NBC had on Friday nights or something. Maybe it's the first exposure that benefits from seeming cool and the newer stuff never seems to measure up. Either that or after the first few exposures (those shows, a couple movies), further "ninja" media just seems like over exposure, and anything of any quality drowns in a sea of other drek...
Galactus is bullcrap and he merely eats whole planets...)
Nitpick but IIRC Galactus can destroy galaxies.
Nitpick but IIRC Galactus can destroy galaxies.
Ow.... Really man? That one hurt.... I think that pegged my geek meter... oh wait
Alright, my two bits:
Narato "ninja's" are what they are in that world because thats what the story dictates. They are over the top sorcerers that like running around in tree tops. It works for the story and that's all they are.
Vampires are the same as well. In Buffy they where super strong monsters with no souls that a good poke to the heart with some wood makes them go all dusty. In Twilight they are nie invincible pretty things that hunt humans cuz it's fun and can be romantic foils. They are simply foils to tell a story. And I think that's how they should be handled. It would be cool to see "choices"... optional rules that could make them one way or the other or something else entirely. That way, you could use them the way you want to in your campaign. I mean, sheesh, Have your cake and use it as an inpromto weapon too
Without a doubt, Masashi Kishimoto and Stephenie Meyer have created new ways that ninja and vampires are perceived respectively. Their creations are not foreign to what we already knew and loved, but more specialized. I think that WotC is now challenged in remaking these characters for fourth edition. Will they make the ninja in a way that Naruto fans can imitate the show or the vampire so Twilight fans can imitate the book? Will they make it so such imitation is impossible? Will they hit a middle ground where some things transfer from the series, but fans of the classic characters won't feel they've changed too much?
Regardless of the path they chose, people will complain. For all you hardcore fans out there, what powers, abilities, and characteristics would you like to see in the ninja and/or vampire? Should vampires be a race or a class? How might ninja and vampires be made like Naruto or Twilight without overpowering them? Maybe this isn't as big of a problem for ninja as it is for vampires, but I'm curious as to what everyone thinks. What other popular D&D characters have been changed by pop culture? Thanks in advance for your thoughts and insights.
Forgive my ignorance, but who?
Forgive my ignorance, but who?
Respectively The author's of Naruto and Twilight
Congratulations to all those who predicted that the dhampyr would be linked to a feat. It actually looks funs to play. I was even thinking up a character concept similar to the third sample character they mentioned before I got to that point. It seems that the mechanics will work for several different types of playable characters including "Twilight"-esc characters (without being overpowered), or more traditional ones. The one thing I have to say about the article is that if I were a vampire, I think that the "more mundane method," would be the "more preferred method" in my book. Anyway, I don' know if I'll ever play a dhampyr, but the option is now there for vampire fans everywhere.
Now if only WotC would accept my credit card. Its good enough for Amazon but not good enough for DDI it seems.
Why do people get so bent out of shape over Naruto ninjas but never cry or complain about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?
What's funny is that Naruto's pro/antagonists are all named on classical ninjas. Juryia was a Toad Hermit and magician. Etc.
TMNT was a meld of things. It's the 80's TV movie ninja. The idea of the black robed ninja is from Japan but it's because it came from a style of live stage production where tenders would wear black to mask themselves out from the backgroud. Being wrapped in black was equated to being unseen. Hense the ninja dressing like stage hands. :D
There are 3 different ideas of what a ninja is. One is the political spy, the other is the magician full of tricks, the last is the martial arts master who is sneaky.
Even the Japanese blend it up depending on the theme. Now, what D&D might do with the role. *shrugs*
After reading this thread, I am appalled by the genre bigotry going on here. How dare you say that I shouldn't be allowed to work the emo-romantic vampire into my game. As long as I don't threaten the mechanics inherent in the game, I can do WHATEVER I want with themes. Anything can have a place, at the appropriate level. I play with different groups, one of them being my wife, who happens to a grown woman Twilight fan. She happens to love the drama of that genre, and if I want to use it within my game, that's my choice to make, and there is nothing wrong with WOTC supplying me the tools to do so.
Vampires and Ninjas are clearly an option that many players want the options to implement without breaking their game, because they are something that always get a reaction when they are brought out, and its not largely negative. If you don't want to use it, then don't. There are many of us who may. This Dhampir article was a great example of how something like the vampire can be worked into the game as player options within the established mechanics of the game.
I am really pleased with the Dhampir format. I'm looking forward to using it in my games. It does provide a solid format to introduce those types of concepts.
After reading this thread, I am appalled by the genre bigotry going on here. How dare you say that I shouldn't be allowed to work the emo-romantic vampire into my game. As long as I don't threaten the mechanics inherent in the game, I can do WHATEVER I want with themes. Anything can have a place, at the appropriate level. I play with different groups, one of them being my wife, who happens to a grown woman Twilight fan. She happens to love the drama of that genre, and if I want to use it within my game, that's my choice to make, and there is nothing wrong with WOTC supplying me the tools to do so.
Vampires and Ninjas are clearly an option that many players want the options to implement without breaking their game, because they are something that always get a reaction when they are brought out, and its not largely negative. If you don't want to use it, then don't. There are many of us who may. This Dhampir article was a great example of how something like the vampire can be worked into the game as player options within the established mechanics of the game.
I don't think anyone said you shouldn't be allowed your emo vampires. Most people just said don't change the baseline vampires to sparkle in the sun.
Why do people get so bent out of shape over Naruto ninjas but never cry or complain about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?
I like how people who have Family Guy quotes in their Sigs think Naruto is a bad show. How stupid is that. If you like Family Guy, The Simpsons, or American Dad, you are enjoying over-the-top cartoons that entertain you by being less intelligent than the most uneducated American you could possibly imagine. Meanwhile, I am enjoying over-the-top cartoons that entertain me by being more testosterone-filled than Hulk Hogen in his glory days. At least my show is more "manly," if you will. Not that I don't enjoy Family Guy here and there, but there are so many shows that are better. Naruto is an adventure, one I get to share by watching, that happens to be a bit over-the-top compared to, say, TMNT; however, it's still a great show (in Japanese), and a few Feats or something that leaned in its direction wouldn't be amiss in DnD.
Why do people get so bent out of shape over Naruto ninjas but never cry or complain about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?
Because TMNT doesn't suck?
Because TMNT's been around since, what, the late 70's, early 80's?
Edit: I should probably clarify: Over the top CAN be good. Naruto is over the top while trying to take itself seriously.
If you want manly and over the top, watch Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Real men don't take themselves seriously. Ever.
And Simpsons and Family Guy are smarter than most people realize. (Ok, earlier family guy, it's really started to suck these past few seasons.) There are a lot of obscure refrences in both of them. Haven't watched enough American Dad to really comment there.
So, CL, you might want to find some "Moral high ground" that isn't on the Artillery range.
Because TMNT doesn't suck?
Because TMNT's been around since, what, the late 70's, early 80's?
And Old=Good, right? ',: |
And how good a show is definitely isn't subjective or anything... ',: |
And Old=Good, right? ',: |
And how good a show is definitely isn't subjective or anything... ',: |
Those were separate statements. Two separate ideas as to why people don't complain about it. I was not trying to say that old = good(except to nostalgics. I actually prefer the current TMNT show, and I still have my original Technodrome.).
I've seen Naruto. It reminded me of Inuyasha. Great beginning, qucikly dropping away from the whole point of the show.
Sasuke," which makes no damn sense. He's an Emo , after all, why waste the time? Nonetheless, "The Power of Friendship" and kicking the crap out of bad peoples has been a fairly solid theme throughout the series, and several fairly decent underlying messages have also been apparent. Add that on to great visual effects and some very funny scenes (unless you hate anime to begin with, in which case, why are you watching Naruto, anyway?), and the whole series only has one glaring flaw: the filler. While I find it entertaining from time to time (and they've been cutting back on it in Shipuuden), they really could have been actually doing something with the other characters rather than have Naruto himself just **** around. Ewww...all the new American cartoons I see are so...WEIRD to me. There's almost never an underlying message, other than, "Buy our toys, kids!" It's sad. :$
Inuyasha is DBZ for girls. DBZ is good, albeit definitely not great, anime. Well, as long as you aren't forced to sit through all of the "power-up" episodes, in which case it SUUUUUUUUUUCKED.
Taking yourself seriously is what being a man is about. :P
I have no "Moral High Ground." I was saying that people who enjoy those shows are just as deep in the gutter as I am for watching Naruto. It's just silly for them to be taking some kind of high ground here.
Thank you for the excellent conversation, by the way!
Inuyasha is DBZ for girls. DBZ is good, albeit definitely not great, anime. Well, as long as you aren't forced to sit through all of the "power-up" episodes, in which case it SUUUUUUUUUUCKED
I loved the DBZ Power Up episodes, they felt epic, as more and more of the land around each character was shattered just by the power they're drawing together.
And who doesn't love Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha Wave on Cell?
It's still ridiculously over-the-top and silly at times, to be honest, but it's enjoyable nonetheless.
I dislike Naruto, mainly because half the main characters annoy me, but I do grant that it's got a very internally consistent and well-developed system to its ninjutsu.
Two episodes to reach a new level of Super-Saijyan is a waste of time, not Epic.
Only 2?
Were we watching the same DBZ?
But yeah. DBZ: not epic. Contemplation of Navels = Fail.
Taking yourself seriously is what being a man is about. :P
I have no "Moral High Ground." I was saying that people who enjoy those shows are just as deep in the gutter as I am for watching Naruto. It's just silly for them to be taking some kind of high ground here.
Thank you for the excellent conversation, by the way!
No problem.
(for a second I thought that first sentence was serious. Still, you should really check out TTGL if you haven't yet. Sells as "Gurren Lagann" in the states.)
And if it wasn't for the Gutter, my mind would be homeless.
Because TMNT doesn't suck?
Because TMNT's been around since, what, the late 70's, early 80's?
Mid 80s. It was a plotless comic fielded as a joke originally that somehow became popular and then became an even worse children's cartoon that had only one high-point as far as I was concerned, which was that Shredder (a bit character from the original comic who lasted all of 3-4 issues and only because he returned in a character's dream) was voice acted by the same VA who played Reddy the Fox in Fables of the Green Forest. The TMNT comic basically sold itself off blood and gore. The cartoon PCed that up, changed April to a white reporter and Baxter Stockman to a white-nutball-midget , then a fly, introduced a bunch of stock cardboard cutout support cast, and proceeded to use among the worst plots I had to put up with in the late 80s/early 90s in children's TV.
Trust me, it did suck. I was old enough to know. Heck most of the Transformers was HORRIBLE and badly written. GI Joe was worse, but Ninja Turtles took the cake for BAD. I even preferred watching reruns of Challenge of the Gobots to TMNT and Challenge of the Gobots was garbage.
So yeah, no rosy coloured shades of the past here. Kids shows have always been awful, some were just less awful than others. Worst was still Monchichis in my books. TMNT is pretty high up there. I'd watch Naruto over it just cus Naruto has a more cohesive storyline and less flat-static characters.
Only 2?
Were we watching the same DBZ?
But yeah. DBZ: not epic. Contemplation of Navels = Fail.
Then avoid Yu Yu Hakisho, HunterXHunter, many of the 'young boy' animes in general.
The TMNT comic basically sold itself off blood and gore. The cartoon PCed that up, changed April to a white reporter and Baxter Stockman to a white-nutball-midget , then a fly, introduced a bunch of stock cardboard cutout support cast, and proceeded to use among the worst plots I had to put up with in the late 80s/early 90s in children's TV.
Umm. Were you reading the same black and white comic I was? I remember cool plots around space travel, aliens, urban wars with ninjas, interesting family dynamics, and a strong message about honor and family in the face of conflict. TMNT the archie comics & the TV cartoon were tripe. Serious tripe. But! they also had cameos from Usagi Yojimbo (Yay!). The later movies (1st only really) and cartoon series were closer to the original comic. Go find, if you can, the collected books. They were awesome. I loved the Time Travel arc with the spoiled apprentice where they met Cerbreus.
Then avoid Yu Yu Hakisho, HunterXHunter, many of the 'young boy' animes in general.
YYH was decent, until they stopped airing it on Cartoon Network.
I'm not spending money on it.
I've yet to see anything drag the fight scenes on as long as DBZ. (Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't count.)
EDIT:
I should probably point out where my willing suspension of disbelief ended in the 2nd movie.
The club, where Vanilla Ice came up with a rap "off the cuff."
I can believe that there are giant turtles practicing Ninjitsu in the sewers of New York. I can believe someone coming back to life after being crushed by a Garbage truck.
I can't believe that Vanilla Ice has any talent.
And the cartoon was crap, but it was FUN crap.
Two episodes to reach a new level of Super-Saijyan is a waste of time, not Epic.
To be fair: They were playing 3.5 and had to recalculate all their stats ;)
To be fair: They were playing 3.5 and had to recalculate all their stats ;)
That should have taken... 10 minutes, tops.
If I can belt out a level 20 spellcaster in 20 minutes from scratch...
That should have taken... 10 minutes, tops.
If I can belt out a level 20 spellcaster in 20 minutes from scratch...
With Goku's INT score? Yeah, that totally explains why it took so damn long, actually.
With Goku's INT score? Yeah, that totally explains why it took so damn long, actually.
Yeah. I thought of that after I hit submit, but was too lazy to fix it.
But I was factoring a dumped INT and WIS into the equation.
If I can put a 3.5 lvl 20 full caster together in 20 minutes, feats and all, they can erase and re-write three numbers on their character sheet in 10 minutes tops.
Yeah. I thought of that after I hit submit, but was too lazy to fix it.
But I was factoring a dumped INT and WIS into the equation.
If I can put a 3.5 lvl 20 full caster together in 20 minutes, feats and all, they can erase and re-write three numbers on their character sheet in 10 minutes tops.
Nah, they actually had to wait for the updated version of their classes to come out in a splatbook. The sounds they made were actually their cries of agony in having to wait so long.