Power spread in PHBs - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Power spread in PHBs

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jamesbr
Jul 22, 2008 18:14:30 I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but it seems to me that WotC is going with a 2-2-4 spread for powers. Look at PHB1, 2 Arcane, 2 Devine, 4 Martial. Now PHB2 is apparently going to be Arcane, Devine, Primal. If they keep to the 2-2-4 spread, they would have 4 classes per power source by PHB4. 32 classes seems like plenty to me, even if it means there are going to be no more Martial classes (which I'm kinda glad for personally). Coupled with endless Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, do we really need more classes then that? Running with this thought, since it puts an upper limit on the amount of classes that will be published, it will in turn makes the powers books relevent at all times as no additional material for that power will be released afterwards. That way we don't get multiple books on the same power source (which would be nice). Besides, 4 PHBs and 8 Powers books at 30-35$ a book gets expensive really fast. This way Wizards can focus there attention on other material such as monster specific books (Draconomicon and Open Graves being the first), campaign settings and other original material.

Thoughts?
#2
trobon
Jul 22, 2008 18:26:56
I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but it seems to me that WotC is going with a 2-2-4 spread for powers. Look at PHB1, 2 Arcane, 2 Devine, 4 Martial. Now PHB2 is apparently going to be Arcane, Devine, Primal. If they keep to the 2-2-4 spread, they would have 4 classes per power source by PHB4. 32 classes seems like plenty to me, even if it means there are going to be no more Martial classes (which I'm kinda glad for personally). Coupled with endless Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, do we really need more classes then that? Running with this thought, since it puts an upper limit on the amount of classes that will be published, it will in turn makes the powers books relevent at all times as no additional material for that power will be released afterwards. That way we don't get multiple books on the same power source (which would be nice). Besides, 4 PHBs and 8 Powers books at 30-35$ a book gets expensive really fast. This way Wizards can focus there attention on other material such as monster specific books (Draconomicon and Open Graves being the first), campaign settings and other original material.

Thoughts?

All I can say is that they plan on making a new PHB a year and I am hoping the game goes on for more than 5 years so We'll just have to see how they handle that.
#3
jamesbr
Jul 22, 2008 18:31:20 I suppose, although I'm not too keen on buying PHBX ten years down the road. There's giving players options, but that's kinda silly (mind you, that's my opinion only). :P
#4
trobon
Jul 22, 2008 18:33:49
I suppose, although I'm not too keen on buying PHBX ten years down the road. There's giving players options, but that's kinda silly (mind you, that's my opinion only). :P

I agree with you to an extent. But I would rather see PHB 7 than Magic of Incarnum. Basically I feel like the PHBs will be replacing those types of books and thus will be supported better. I mean aside from the actual book is there a mention of Incarnum in 3.5? Or Binding, Shadow Magic or Truenamers?

So in the end I think this way will act mostly the same, bt work better.
#5
fourninjadevilrat_dup
Jul 22, 2008 18:38:31 4.5 and 5E will come long before PHBX does.
#6
jamesbr
Jul 22, 2008 18:41:52 That's true. We'll have to see I guess.

The power spread as written is still a convinient way to do things. Get a taste of two powers and full of a third every PHB. It works well. They keep it up for as long as they want, although unless they break this formula and print more then 8 classes in a book, we aren't going to get another marital class until PH5 or they'll have to push a power source back.
#7
emwasick
Jul 22, 2008 19:14:03
I agree with you to an extent. But I would rather see PHB 7 than Magic of Incarnum. Basically I feel like the PHBs will be replacing those types of books and thus will be supported better. I mean aside from the actual book is there a mention of Incarnum in 3.5? Or Binding, Shadow Magic or Truenamers?

So in the end I think this way will act mostly the same, bt work better.

Agreed. Themed books tend to stretch things a little thin. I'd rather have a PH6 than a Magic of Incarnum (even though I liked Incarnum!) because I think the current format doesn't push the designers to include a bunch of marginal content. Maybe it's just my take on it, but I feel like the need to get everything done in one book and have a reasonable page-count led to some rushed concepts and to the inclusion of things that very few people would use.
#8
Kalorus
Jul 22, 2008 19:25:17 Don't forget that PHBs won't be the only place to find new classes... there will be ones in the Campaign Settings as well. After PHB2 arcane will probably have the most classes (at LEAST 5, probably 6) thanks to the Artificer and Swordmage.

There also might be new classes in some issue of Dragon... that's the place i think is most likely for a few new martial classes to pop up.
#9
Steely_Dan
Jul 23, 2008 6:30:53 Yeah, I believe the PHB II will have:

4 Primal classes: Barbarian (defender), Druid (striker/hybrid), Shaman (leader) and Witch (controller).

2 Arcane classes: Bard (leader) and Sorcerer (controller).

2 Divine classes: Invoker (striker) and Theurge (controller).
#10
jamesbr
Jul 23, 2008 8:57:44 It seems like a reasonable spread given the info released.
#11
defcon_1
Jul 24, 2008 15:45:05 And by the time they get around to finishing everything off with the release of Player's Handbook IV and the eighth and final Power splatbook (probably Elemental if I had to guess) after the end of their third or fourth year... they will then have a better idea of what to work on next.

Either 4E will have been broken by everyone by that point where they feel like they need to release 4.5E to fix everything (and thus the cycle of 4 Handbooks and 8 Power books begin again)... or they decide to start releasing new classes from the older original power sources (so for instance all-new Martial, Arcane, & Divine classes in Player's Handbook 5, new Arcane, Divine & Primal in PHVI etc.) Thus they then get to also release Martial Power II, Arcane Power II etc. to couple with them.

Seems pretty solid to me.
#12
jamesbr
Jul 24, 2008 17:26:45 It definitly seems like an coomon sense way to go about it. Athough I'm less keen on buying 8 PHB's and 16 power books along side everything else for the next 8 years, it promises to be concise if nothing else. Let people play with a power source for a few years before releasing more material. If more material is needed or wanted, print it after the important (note: new) stuff is on the shelves.
#13
Grazel
Jul 24, 2008 19:37:18 Also with Paragon paths and power options for builds there's less need for classes in 4e than there was in 3/3.5. Now many old base classes/prestige classes can be done through Paragon paths and new powers tied to a class build. They've given a hint of that with the article showing the heroic teir powers for an illusionist build for the Wizard class. I suspect the full illusionist build will be in the Arcane Power book out early next year (a month after the PHB2). If they put 2 arcane classes in PHB2 then the arcane power book will have 5 arcane classes to work with since the swordmage is in the FR Player's Guide (and campaign player's guides are meant to be modular and not heavily campaign specific which is why they have a Campaign Guide as well that's more focused on the setting itself).
#14
Steely_Dan
Jul 25, 2008 3:56:44
I suspect the full illusionist build will be in the Arcane Power book out early next year (a month after the PHB2).

I believe they have stated that the Illusionist will have the Shadow power source (I'm thinking controller).
#15
defcon_1
Jul 25, 2008 10:45:41 In regards to the illusionist... a lot will come down to whether they want to sprinkle illusions into the wizard's repetoire, or basically withhold all of those spells for an actual Illusionist class.

If they want to give the wizard an illusion build, we'll see a number of those spells in Arcane Power. However, if they do decide to keep wizardy and illusion completely seperate, we won't see much of anything until we get a few of the Shadow power source classes in probably PHIII.
#16
Kalorus
Jul 25, 2008 11:54:22
In regards to the illusionist... a lot will come down to whether they want to sprinkle illusions into the wizard's repetoire, or basically withhold all of those spells for an actual Illusionist class.

If they want to give the wizard an illusion build, we'll see a number of those spells in Arcane Power. However, if they do decide to keep wizardy and illusion completely seperate, we won't see much of anything until we get a few of the Shadow power source classes in probably PHIII.

They've already started doing this in Dragon #364. They have heroic tier illusion spells for Wizards... i imagine they'll have the other tiers in future issues of Dragon and probably as you've suggested haev the whole lot in Arcane Power.
#17
lostdwarf
Jul 26, 2008 15:28:40
In regards to the illusionist... a lot will come down to whether they want to sprinkle illusions into the wizard's repetoire, or basically withhold all of those spells for an actual Illusionist class.

If they want to give the wizard an illusion build, we'll see a number of those spells in Arcane Power. However, if they do decide to keep wizardy and illusion completely seperate, we won't see much of anything until we get a few of the Shadow power source classes in probably PHIII.

Agreed. I think we will see illusions as an expansion of the wizard class when arcane power comes out next year. I doubt that we will see a seperate arcane class focused on illusions
#18
syrsuro
Jul 31, 2008 22:07:12
I suppose, although I'm not too keen on buying PHBX ten years down the road. There's giving players options, but that's kinda silly (mind you, that's my opinion only). :P

Don't worry.

We'll get D&D5E before we get a PHBX.

Carl
#19
mrpopstar
Aug 05, 2008 13:31:59 [indent]I feel that the Wizard's capabilities will be expanded to include illusory controls and future the Illusionist will have a much larger repetoire of, and stronger focus on, illusions.[/indent]

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jamesbr Jul 22, 2008 18:14:30	I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but it seems to me that WotC is going with a 2-2-4 spread for powers. Look at PHB1, 2 Arcane, 2 Devine, 4 Martial. Now PHB2 is apparently going to be Arcane, Devine, Primal. If they keep to the 2-2-4 spread, they would have 4 classes per power source by PHB4. 32 classes seems like plenty to me, even if it means there are going to be no more Martial classes (which I'm kinda glad for personally). Coupled with endless Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, do we really need more classes then that? Running with this thought, since it puts an upper limit on the amount of classes that will be published, it will in turn makes the powers books relevent at all times as no additional material for that power will be released afterwards. That way we don't get multiple books on the same power source (which would be nice). Besides, 4 PHBs and 8 Powers books at 30-35$ a book gets expensive really fast. This way Wizards can focus there attention on other material such as monster specific books (Draconomicon and Open Graves being the first), campaign settings and other original material. Thoughts?
#2 trobon Jul 22, 2008 18:26:56	I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but it seems to me that WotC is going with a 2-2-4 spread for powers. Look at PHB1, 2 Arcane, 2 Devine, 4 Martial. Now PHB2 is apparently going to be Arcane, Devine, Primal. If they keep to the 2-2-4 spread, they would have 4 classes per power source by PHB4. 32 classes seems like plenty to me, even if it means there are going to be no more Martial classes (which I'm kinda glad for personally). Coupled with endless Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, do we really need more classes then that? Running with this thought, since it puts an upper limit on the amount of classes that will be published, it will in turn makes the powers books relevent at all times as no additional material for that power will be released afterwards. That way we don't get multiple books on the same power source (which would be nice). Besides, 4 PHBs and 8 Powers books at 30-35$ a book gets expensive really fast. This way Wizards can focus there attention on other material such as monster specific books (Draconomicon and Open Graves being the first), campaign settings and other original material. Thoughts? All I can say is that they plan on making a new PHB a year and I am hoping the game goes on for more than 5 years so We'll just have to see how they handle that.
#3 jamesbr Jul 22, 2008 18:31:20	I suppose, although I'm not too keen on buying PHBX ten years down the road. There's giving players options, but that's kinda silly (mind you, that's my opinion only). :P
#4 trobon Jul 22, 2008 18:33:49	I suppose, although I'm not too keen on buying PHBX ten years down the road. There's giving players options, but that's kinda silly (mind you, that's my opinion only). :P I agree with you to an extent. But I would rather see PHB 7 than Magic of Incarnum. Basically I feel like the PHBs will be replacing those types of books and thus will be supported better. I mean aside from the actual book is there a mention of Incarnum in 3.5? Or Binding, Shadow Magic or Truenamers? So in the end I think this way will act mostly the same, bt work better.
#5 fourninjadevilrat_dup Jul 22, 2008 18:38:31	4.5 and 5E will come long before PHBX does.
#6 jamesbr Jul 22, 2008 18:41:52	That's true. We'll have to see I guess. The power spread as written is still a convinient way to do things. Get a taste of two powers and full of a third every PHB. It works well. They keep it up for as long as they want, although unless they break this formula and print more then 8 classes in a book, we aren't going to get another marital class until PH5 or they'll have to push a power source back.
#7 emwasick Jul 22, 2008 19:14:03	I agree with you to an extent. But I would rather see PHB 7 than Magic of Incarnum. Basically I feel like the PHBs will be replacing those types of books and thus will be supported better. I mean aside from the actual book is there a mention of Incarnum in 3.5? Or Binding, Shadow Magic or Truenamers? So in the end I think this way will act mostly the same, bt work better. Agreed. Themed books tend to stretch things a little thin. I'd rather have a PH6 than a Magic of Incarnum (even though I liked Incarnum!) because I think the current format doesn't push the designers to include a bunch of marginal content. Maybe it's just my take on it, but I feel like the need to get everything done in one book and have a reasonable page-count led to some rushed concepts and to the inclusion of things that very few people would use.
#8 Kalorus Jul 22, 2008 19:25:17	Don't forget that PHBs won't be the only place to find new classes... there will be ones in the Campaign Settings as well. After PHB2 arcane will probably have the most classes (at LEAST 5, probably 6) thanks to the Artificer and Swordmage. There also might be new classes in some issue of Dragon... that's the place i think is most likely for a few new martial classes to pop up.
#9 Steely_Dan Jul 23, 2008 6:30:53	Yeah, I believe the PHB II will have: 4 Primal classes: Barbarian (defender), Druid (striker/hybrid), Shaman (leader) and Witch (controller). 2 Arcane classes: Bard (leader) and Sorcerer (controller). 2 Divine classes: Invoker (striker) and Theurge (controller).
#10 jamesbr Jul 23, 2008 8:57:44	It seems like a reasonable spread given the info released.
#11 defcon_1 Jul 24, 2008 15:45:05	And by the time they get around to finishing everything off with the release of Player's Handbook IV and the eighth and final Power splatbook (probably Elemental if I had to guess) after the end of their third or fourth year... they will then have a better idea of what to work on next. Either 4E will have been broken by everyone by that point where they feel like they need to release 4.5E to fix everything (and thus the cycle of 4 Handbooks and 8 Power books begin again)... or they decide to start releasing new classes from the older original power sources (so for instance all-new Martial, Arcane, & Divine classes in Player's Handbook 5, new Arcane, Divine & Primal in PHVI etc.) Thus they then get to also release Martial Power II, Arcane Power II etc. to couple with them. Seems pretty solid to me.
#12 jamesbr Jul 24, 2008 17:26:45	It definitly seems like an coomon sense way to go about it. Athough I'm less keen on buying 8 PHB's and 16 power books along side everything else for the next 8 years, it promises to be concise if nothing else. Let people play with a power source for a few years before releasing more material. If more material is needed or wanted, print it after the important (note: new) stuff is on the shelves.
#13 Grazel Jul 24, 2008 19:37:18	Also with Paragon paths and power options for builds there's less need for classes in 4e than there was in 3/3.5. Now many old base classes/prestige classes can be done through Paragon paths and new powers tied to a class build. They've given a hint of that with the article showing the heroic teir powers for an illusionist build for the Wizard class. I suspect the full illusionist build will be in the Arcane Power book out early next year (a month after the PHB2). If they put 2 arcane classes in PHB2 then the arcane power book will have 5 arcane classes to work with since the swordmage is in the FR Player's Guide (and campaign player's guides are meant to be modular and not heavily campaign specific which is why they have a Campaign Guide as well that's more focused on the setting itself).
#14 Steely_Dan Jul 25, 2008 3:56:44	I suspect the full illusionist build will be in the Arcane Power book out early next year (a month after the PHB2). I believe they have stated that the Illusionist will have the Shadow power source (I'm thinking controller).
#15 defcon_1 Jul 25, 2008 10:45:41	In regards to the illusionist... a lot will come down to whether they want to sprinkle illusions into the wizard's repetoire, or basically withhold all of those spells for an actual Illusionist class. If they want to give the wizard an illusion build, we'll see a number of those spells in Arcane Power. However, if they do decide to keep wizardy and illusion completely seperate, we won't see much of anything until we get a few of the Shadow power source classes in probably PHIII.
#16 Kalorus Jul 25, 2008 11:54:22	In regards to the illusionist... a lot will come down to whether they want to sprinkle illusions into the wizard's repetoire, or basically withhold all of those spells for an actual Illusionist class. If they want to give the wizard an illusion build, we'll see a number of those spells in Arcane Power. However, if they do decide to keep wizardy and illusion completely seperate, we won't see much of anything until we get a few of the Shadow power source classes in probably PHIII. They've already started doing this in Dragon #364. They have heroic tier illusion spells for Wizards... i imagine they'll have the other tiers in future issues of Dragon and probably as you've suggested haev the whole lot in Arcane Power.
#17 lostdwarf Jul 26, 2008 15:28:40	In regards to the illusionist... a lot will come down to whether they want to sprinkle illusions into the wizard's repetoire, or basically withhold all of those spells for an actual Illusionist class. If they want to give the wizard an illusion build, we'll see a number of those spells in Arcane Power. However, if they do decide to keep wizardy and illusion completely seperate, we won't see much of anything until we get a few of the Shadow power source classes in probably PHIII. Agreed. I think we will see illusions as an expansion of the wizard class when arcane power comes out next year. I doubt that we will see a seperate arcane class focused on illusions
#18 syrsuro Jul 31, 2008 22:07:12	I suppose, although I'm not too keen on buying PHBX ten years down the road. There's giving players options, but that's kinda silly (mind you, that's my opinion only). :P Don't worry. We'll get D&D5E before we get a PHBX. Carl
#19 mrpopstar Aug 05, 2008 13:31:59	[indent]I feel that the Wizard's capabilities will be expanded to include illusory controls and future the Illusionist will have a much larger repetoire of, and stronger focus on, illusions.[/indent]