So, what do people want for it?
Wouldn't mind a new Warden build, that focused more on wind and rain maybe?
(Is the reason that people haven't put up a topic because the source is fairly solid with no major deficiencies, like Straladins? I wonder...)
I would hope the different warden themes get more support before more are introduced; winter and other season/weather based wardens could get a feature and more powers, animal based wardens need one or two at-wills, plant wardens need a feature.
I really hope there is a optional class feature for Druids that replaces Wild shape, but it would still be a alternate form of combat because thats sort of the Druid's thing; Maybe like a Spirit form where they can possess monsters or people to do attacks, or a Spell rage would be cool, you could give it like a Rage Blast at-will that gets a bigger AoE depending on the level of Rage Daily you sac into it.
I would hope there are some more seemingly Martial barbarian powers for every level, I understand some people don't like that their Barbarian shoots out lightning and things like that. They did it for Avenger and Paladin, they should do for Barbarian.
i'd like to see a summoning druid, but i think between the beast ranger and the shaman there isn't much room for another class using animal/animal-like proxies on the battlefield. plus the summoning controller is becoming just another spot to fill on the grid of class builds.
more interesting would be a primal equivalent of domains. for instance, winter, spring, summer, autumn, could all be domains. or you could have domains based on different environments or animal groups.
I'm also expecting to see a two-weapon barbarian based on the cover, possibly with a new class feature (al la tempest fighter).
I expect a new spirit pact for Shamans but I don't have any idea what it will look like. Also, a new class feature option for Wardens.
For druids, I expect more non-Beast Form powers to really fill out the options. (I'm looking at you level 5 dailies.)
We'll also be getting the full version of Tribal Feats (which I think is a really cool story building concept.)
In the realm of wild speculation, we might see something similar to familiars only for primal characters. Some kind of mini-primal spirit. This might step too much on the toes of the Shaman however.
Harvester/Reaper/Needs a Better Name Druid- Tend the best, prune the rest. Plant based, perhaps intelligence secondary, very defensive, mixes damage with life return much like Fires of Life to protect the party and decimate the enemy in the same motion, as well as constructing walls and towers to shield the group. Themed around thorns, vines, all that wonderful horticulturalist goodness, literally builds the battlefield into the desired shape.
Whirlwind Barbarian- Localized point of cataclysmic destruction, focused on point blank area effects. Dexterity, massive movement, and multiple targeting effects. You know the drill.
Totemist Barbarian- For my ancestors! Based even further on channeling outside essences, elemental effects, and supernatural enhancement. Wild and outlandish effects, the opposite end of the spectrum from the martial-only barbarian sort.
Eagle Shaman- Go, go, tactical positioning! Master of movement, placement, and deployment of allies and spirits, getting them around the battlefield to where they need to go.
Wolf Shaman- Do not anger the papa wolf. Half defensive, half offensive buffing, the wolf shaman is violently protective of his cubs, er, allies, increasing their abilities while smiting with a vengeance anything that manages to lay a hand on them. While the panther is great against bloodied opponent offense, the wolf is best with massively increasing teamwork, flanking bonuses, and keeping the pack together.
Fourfold Warden- A mantle for every season. Themed around the yearly cycle, heavy on the elemental damage and effects, changes throughout the battle to access different powers for different seasons.
Feral Warden- Get in touch with your inner ape. While the wildblood may be a mobile, stalking fiend, the feral is a juggernaut, slamming into his opponents and tossing them across the battlefield. Excels at pushing, sliding, and outright throwing his enemies.
Druid: Summoning Druid has already been confirmed, and would make a good complement to the existing wildshape and nature magic builds.
Warden: Winterborn Warden - a build focused on channeling the spirits of cold and winter, with a lot of slowing and immobilization effects.
Barbarian: Wildfrenzy Barbarian - A two-weapon Barbarian build. To set it apart from a two-weapon Ranger, may end up focusing on close bursts and multi-target attacks rather than piling the damage on a single foe.
Shaman: Serpent, Wolf, or Eagle Shaman - Opens up new options for the shaman, but what form that might take I'm not sure.
also, this is more of a phb3 thing, but i am hoping for a primal witch class.
perhaps, the witch could have with a noticeable amount of natural poison powers (poisons that weaken, slow, stun, etc.) and a good use of primal-type reagents, elixirs, potions and alchemical items.
maybe the witch could be a leader class whose powers grant allies various primal transformations. this would be consistent with the theme of the primal source (druid, warden and barbarian each have its own version of this. okay, shaman really doesn't.)
perhaps, similar to the barbarian class, the transformations could be only partial at lower levels and complete transformations at higher levels. that would be neat. nonprimal classes would get a chance to experience having claws, vines, fangs, wings, etc. that would allow them to (i) augment an attack, (ii) immobilize an enemy, (iii) bite as a minor action, (iv) burrow, (v) fly, (vi) enjoy a close burst 1 zone of difficult terrain, etc.
as i think of a witch class, i can't help but think of hags, both in and out of d&d, but in a player-useful sort of way.
sorry to have slightly derailed the thread. i am just so hopeful about a witch class.
Sentinel Druid- Making friends! Like the Preserver covenant invoker, a bit more leader-ish than the guardian with a charisma motif. Themed with animal powers, calling them, summoning them, using them against the enemy. Could possibly replace wild shape for an animal companion like the ranger's, with the ability to use the companion as the origin of any Beast Form power.
I love this idea in theory, but in practice I could see it resulting in the death of the animal companion VERY frequently (gimping the Druid until it's raised). I'm assuming that, like the Ranger's, the animal companion will have limited healing surges and less-than-stellar AC. That's fine for the Ranger, who is using the pet mostly for flanking and other tactical options, but the Druid's would be a significant threat to enemies if it could use any beast form power. Significant threats tend to be the target of attacks. And making the animal companion tough enough to handle this would just make it overpowered compared to the Ranger's. Plus, if the pet isn't using a beast form power then the Druid is probably using a ranged power, which wouldn't benefit from flanking (though the pet could still flank with melee allies).
That said, it would be nice if the developers cooked up a balanced mechanic for Druid animal companions that I'm simply overlooking. After all, they're paid to come up with stuff like that, I'm not :D
I think the main thing that I want from Primal Power is variety (and at least I'm sure to get that!). While the Druid is arguably the most unique controller (namely because of its melee/range versatility), the options for some levels are very unimpressive. Level 7, for example. Latch On is a good option for Predators, but it's situational in that you don't want to latch onto an enemy that can pummel you to death. The other options, IMO, are just not worth it. In general, it would also be nice to get more AoE's or multi-target attacks similar to Predator's Flurry. Finally, more powers that play up the secondary role of Leader, especially in the earlier levels.
Not sure how I feel about a dual-wielding Barbarian. Seems like it would be far too similar to the Ranger. The Tempest fighter was one thing (Striker vs. Defender), but for two TWF Strikers it would have to have some clever new mechanic to differentiate it. I could easily see it becoming the default Barbarian choice, since multi-attacking almost always results in an increase in DPR.
I honestly have no idea what to expect from the Shaman or the Warden. The Warden in particular was a new concept when the PHB2 came out, so there obviously isn't anything that it's "traditionally" had that was left out.
Can't wait to see what new Paragon Paths show up either. I was disappointed by the Druid's in PHB2; Sky Hunter was the only one that really appeals to me. The Warden already has some pretty solid PPs, and additional ones will hopefully flesh out what a Warden is a bit more.
A sub-defender druid would be interesting, one that focused on being in beast form more but used Con. Maybe they could get some kind of Temp HP based off Con for Beast form... not everytime, because they could do it every round... but something like that.
- Shaman: Powers/Build built around Spirits possessing the Shaman, allies and enemies. This could either be the Spirit Companion itself, or other Spirits.
- Warden: Have Powers/Build built around its partial transformation. Perhaps ones that are not just Daily, but At-Will and Encounter.
- Druid: Besides Summoning. It be neat if there was stuff based around "weird aberrant" type of Wild Shape.
- Barbarian: I could definitely see a dual-wield build. Would like though a unarmed one (extremely bestial like)
Overall, I would like to see a focus on spirits, less the nature aspect of Primal. I would be quite happy to see urban stuff as well. I have always liked the idea of Primal type stuff in urban environments hidden, and public populace not aware of.
Druid:
-A beast companion build (make sure it isn't an overpowered option though!)
-A summoning build (already confirmed)
Shaman:
-A Charisma-based build. I have no idea why there wasn't one in the PHB II. I mean, aren't shamans supposed to be tribal leaders and such?
-A few melee options so that they don't get massacred when an enemy closes in on them.
Warden:
-Not sure. I was never really interested in the Warden.
Barbarian:
-Some more martial-flavoured options, like McNancy suggested, especially for daily powers. I prefer my barbarians to be more like Conan rather than wierd elemental fire-breathing things. Go ahead and add some more elemental stuff in there, but please show some love for the Conan-style barbarians too eh?
-A Dexterity-based build that fights in cloth or no armor at all. This would represent the archetypal bare-chested barbarian. Furthermore, the cloth or no armor restriction would also be necessary for balance reasons, so that this build wouldn't have an AC way higher than his Charisma and Constitution-based peers.
Overall:
-I want MORE options, NOT BETTER OPTIONS. Please, no more overpowered crap like the battlerager, dual strike, or Hero of Faith. PLEASE PLAYTEST EVERYTHING! What is most important is balance, balance, balance.
I like Dragoncat's ideas for Warden and Shaman. The Warden seems fairly good as-is, but could use a bit more versatility and consistency, while the Shaman just doesn't appeal to me yet, and those ideas might help.
Not sure about the Druid. I'm not a big fan of the shapeshifting aspect, and more non-Beast powers would be good.
Some stuff I would like to see:
- Shaman: Powers/Build built around Spirits possessing the Shaman, allies and enemies. This could either be the Spirit Companion itself, or other Spirits.
- Warden: Have Powers/Build built around its partial transformation. Perhaps ones that are not just Daily, but At-Will and Encounter.
- Barbarian: I could definitely see a dual-wield build. Would like though a unarmed one (extremely bestial like)
Overall, I would like to see a focus on spirits, less the nature aspect of Primal. I would be quite happy to see urban stuff as well. I have always liked the idea of Primal type stuff in urban environments hidden, and public populace not aware of.
Love the idea of the spirits possessing, is one i have pushed in my own games actually.
In general, i thought the Shaman a bit too pet focused, the shaman is meant to be the hero, right? Just a personal annoyance really, but the shaman able to do more by themselves would be nice
Summoner druids are definitely in i would say, and i personally favour the guardian druid builds, so more options for them would be nice.
Dual wield for barbarians makes sense, but it would have to be done in such a way as to not tread on any other toes. I also agree that it would be nice to have a few more 'mundane' powers for them to use.
All in all i have liked the way the primal power source has been represented, with probably only the shaman a class i would dislike playing in its current form (a shame because i like the idea of a shaman!). I agree with the above though, more spirits, less nature...
bring on primal power!
I hoping to see a melee build for Shamans, so they can get some use out of that spear prof.
We recently had a preview of AV2 and in it there is a Spear that can be used as implement by any character that can use a totem as an implement. so there you are.
I'd like a Shaman build that instead of using one big spirit as companion would use a swarm of smaller spirits, like the spirits of bugs or plants!
I want an expanded set of powers, but I see no gaping holes that need patching like the other powersources had.
Not sure about the Druid. I'm not a big fan of the shapeshifting aspect...
I think a number of other folks feel the same, but all I have to say is come on! This is the druid were talking about and wild shape is a part of that. Otherwise, you essentially have a cleric of a nature god, no? Shapeshifting just seems iconic to me. Hope this doesn't come across as too mean; its not meant to be.
Like what's already essentially been said, what I want is more options, meaning powers NOT builds actually. I worry that we're going to see endless different builds that just dilute the class (all classes). There are some very weak levels as have been pointed out that could use some new powers.
Back to the wildshape, I'd like to see more feat support for it as well. How about one to support basic "animal" skills like climb and swim in beast form? I made a suggestion for a home made feat awhile ago which I still think wouldn't be bad - WIS instead of STR when in beast form for athletics and the like.
I think a number of other folks feel the same, but all I have to say is come on! This is the druid were talking about and wild shape is a part of that. Otherwise, you essentially have a cleric of a nature god, no? Shapeshifting just seems iconic to me. Hope this doesn't come across as too mean; its not meant to be.
Not really. Cleric = Leader. Druid = Controller. I'd like an option to trade in the shapechanging and melee Beast powers for more nature-themed ranged control.
Like what's already essentially been said, what I want is more options, meaning powers NOT builds actually. I worry that we're going to see endless different builds that just dilute the class (all classes). There are some very weak levels as have been pointed out that could use some new powers.
More options are usually good things. More powers that cover existing weaknesses would be good, but new class features to choose from are often welcome.
Back to the wildshape, I'd like to see more feat support for it as well. How about one to support basic "animal" skills like climb and swim in beast form? I made a suggestion for a home made feat awhile ago which I still think wouldn't be bad - WIS instead of STR when in beast form for athletics and the like.
An interesting idea. I'm really not sure what to think of how WotC handled Wildshape in this edition. It's probably the most balanced approach, but it also doesn't feel at all like a genuine change of shape. More of a stance shift.
i dunno what anyone else thinks of that though
So let's say you have Totem of the Wolf. It gives the usual bonus for wardens, barbarians, etc. But for druids, it suggests the shape they adopt; a wolf or similar creature, as well as the image of the shaman's spirit companion. It isn't necessarily a requirement, ie if you don't turn into a wolf, you can't use this power, but it helps people adopting the vision of how they treat wild shape and of fleshing out their forms. In other words, when you become a bear, your at-wills are more bearlike, or if you take the Totem of the Jaguar, your shifting ambushes make you feel more at home in your spotted skin.
Then you have Totem of the Oak which will instead affect the druid's Thorn Whip at-will, and therefore isn't supposed to be an aesthetic impact on his wild shape in battle. All mixed together, they can help give style and panache to the beast form and caster types alike.
Barbarian:
-Some more martial-flavoured options, like McNancy suggested, especially for daily powers. I prefer my barbarians to be more like Conan rather than wierd elemental fire-breathing things. Go ahead and add some more elemental stuff in there, but please show some love for the Conan-style barbarians too eh?
I thought a 4E developer mentioned that Conan in 4E terms is more akin to a fighter, than a barbarian.
I think a great weapon fighter with some MC barbarian suits the Conan mold better than a barbarian class.
I thought a 4E developer mentioned that Conan in 4E terms is more akin to a fighter, than a barbarian.
I think a great weapon fighter with some MC barbarian suits the Conan mold better than a barbarian class.
I agree, but it would still be nice to have more Barbarian options focused on strength and prowess than elemental stuff.
This is the druid were talking about and wild shape is a part of that.
Turn Undead was iconic for the cleric, and we can get rid of that now. Just because something is 'iconic' doesn't make it irreplaceable.
However, i dont think it will be Wild Shape that gets swapped out of the druid, we already have 2 builds which change something else, its likely Primal Power will just provide varients of those. The PHBII classes already have a structure in place to which to swap class features, unlike the Cleric or Paladin.
Thanks.
The PHBII classes already have a structure in place to which to swap class features, unlike the Cleric or Paladin.
Exactly.
Build for barbarian, a mystic warrior style build keyed off of Wisdom, that's right, even MORE magical! (If you want more vanilla style powers, that's the very purpose of MC fighter and ranger). We will not see a two-weapon build within the barbarian class, but rather a build using multiclass. Anyway, I'd say a Feral Might class feature like "Wildheart Valor", which gives you say a mystic surge power, encounter when you kill an enemy, gain a bonus to your next attack and damage roll equal to your Wisdom modifier, and the feature bonus would be a cumulative +1 bonus (+2 paragon, +3 epic) to attack rolls for each enemy you drop.
We have the whole Druid summons thing announced, so there's one, but I'd like to see either a beast form druid build with defender secondary, or a plant based spellcaster hippie. Either one is fine.
Melee build for shamans. PLZ.
I LOVE the idea of the warden wading into battle and throwing everything around. It sounds like a blast. I'm sure they'll do something creative for a second build.
As for the special surprise inside, I'm thinking Aspects of Nature, a bonus you can get under certain circumstances. Like an Aspect of the Bear which gives you damage bonuses when you're flanked, or Aspect of the Cheetah where you don't take a penalty to attacks when running, but instead get CA, stuff like that. That would be very fun.
Oh yes, and give us lotsa juicy feats (I think the feats in Divine Power have been the best quality of feats in a power book so far, let's see it matched!)
-DaButcher out
Lay on Hands was also iconic to the Paladin.
However, i dont think it will be Wild Shape that gets swapped out of the druid, we already have 2 builds which change something else, its likely Primal Power will just provide varients of those. The PHBII classes already have a structure in place to which to swap class features, unlike the Cleric or Paladin.
How is 'instead of Wild Shape, you gain (other ability)' not somehow mechanically viable?
"Sure, old Three-Hawks-Soaring is really wise and can talk to the spirits and everything, but none of us ever listen to him..."
How is 'instead of Wild Shape, you gain (other ability)' not somehow mechanically viable?
The problem is, you'd also have to change how the druid selects his at-wills, plus half of his class encounter, daily and utility powers would be unaccessable (not just non-optimal like a Cha-based paladin picking Str powers, but actually not usable at all ever).
I can see PP adding a lot more non-beastform powers to the druid, to encourage staying in humanoid form, but not an option to actually replace wild shape altogether. It's also possible that PHB3 will introduce a primal class that functions somewhat like a druid without wildshape (either as a controller or leader).
The problem is, you'd also have to change how the druid selects his at-wills, plus half of his class encounter, daily and utility powers would be unaccessable (not just non-optimal like a Cha-based paladin picking Str powers, but actually not usable at all ever).
Would that be any bigger of a change than the addition of the beast master path for Rangers? Archery and 2-Weapon Rangers post Martial Power now have a subset of powers they cannot access.
It would be a large change, certainly, but not impossible or even improbable.
Would that be any bigger of a change than the addition of the beast master path for Rangers? Archery and 2-Weapon Rangers post Martial Power now have a subset of powers they cannot access.
It would be a large change, certainly, but not impossible or even improbable.
Took the words right out of my mouth. Er, off my fingers. Or something.
Since Primal power is likely to double the number of powers Druids have available, having an inaccessible half doesn't seem like a big deal.
The Beastmaster ranger is still built into the Ranger fighting style class feature like its other two build options, same with the Ruthless Ruffian for the rogue, Battlerager or Tempest for the fighter, the Aegis' of the Swordmage, or the implement options for the Wizard.
Now, that doesn't stop the new build from favouring caster druids, just it is highly unlike the druid will get 2 different class features that swap around, especially since Predator Druids have a useless bonus without wildshape.
Yes, but the druid builds right now do not replace Wildshape, they give you +1 speed in wildshape or Con to AC. This is their class trait which changes. They choose to be a Guardian Druid or a Predator Druid. It is likely that any further build options will be part of the same class feature as those.
The Beastmaster ranger is still built into the Ranger fighting style class feature like its other two build options, same with the Ruthless Ruffian for the rogue, Battlerager or Tempest for the fighter, the Aegis' of the Swordmage, or the implement options for the Wizard.
Now, that doesn't stop the new build from favouring caster druids, just it is highly unlike the druid will get 2 different class features that swap around, especially since Predator Druids have a useless bonus without wildshape.
Then a predator druid wouldn't choose to sub out wild shape. Still not a problem.
First, the Primal Predator speed bonus, and the feats for it as well, is not just for when you're in beast form, it's always.
Secondly, all the feats and PPs based on Wild shape have both Druid and the Wild Shape class feature as a Prerequisite, something to think about.
Secondly, all the feats and PPs based on Wild shape have both Druid and the Wild Shape class feature as a Prerequisite, something to think about.
Well, assuming they release other Multiclass feats for them, like they do for every other class in a splat book, they'd need that. Other Multiclass feats might not give wildshape.
Two things:
First, the Primal Predator speed bonus, and the feats for it as well, is not just for when you're in beast form, it's always.
I assume you mean the feats along the lines of Savage Panther or Enraged Boar. However, these feats do require you to be in beast form to gain their advantages. The speed bonus from Primal Predator, however, is not specific to beast form, and you benefit from it always.
I'll add my two cents to the group that just want more options. The only druid I've played hasn't even hit 5th level yet, so his options in a fight are still pretty limited. However, looking into the future, I see a few tasty powers...and then a lot of things that simply don't measure up to wizards or invokers. It isn't that druids cannot do their job, but rather that wizards and invokers can do the same job in ways that are more exciting.
I'd like that to change. I'm no rules builder, so I haven't a clue how to fix it. Hopefully someone at WoTC figured out a way to make druids not only functional, but really cool.
I assume you mean the feats along the lines of Savage Panther or Enraged Boar.
Sorry, I meant the feats for Primal Predator, such as Primal Fury, do not require wild shape either. Those feats you mentioned would be examples of the feats I was talking about as my secondary point, they require both Druid and the Wild-shape feature.
I assume you mean the feats along the lines of Savage Panther or Enraged Boar. However, these feats do require you to be in beast form to gain their advantages. The speed bonus from Primal Predator, however, is not specific to beast form, and you benefit from it always.
I'll add my two cents to the group that just want more options. The only druid I've played hasn't even hit 5th level yet, so his options in a fight are still pretty limited. However, looking into the future, I see a few tasty powers...and then a lot of things that simply don't measure up to wizards or invokers. It isn't that druids cannot do their job, but rather that wizards and invokers can do the same job in ways that are more exciting.
I'd like that to change. I'm no rules builder, so I haven't a clue how to fix it. Hopefully someone at WoTC figured out a way to make druids not only functional, but really cool.
I noticed this too. I play a wizard, and I can do things on an encounter power that my friends druid has to use a daily to do. Same for Invoker.