my interpretation of the war between gods and primordials had the gods winning because primordials, being inherently chaotic beings, did not cooperate and coordinate among themselves. thus, the gods, who are not inherently chaotic (mostly), largely teamed up on the primordials one at a time.
tharizdun started thinking and acting too much like a primordial, so he got kicked out of the club, so to speak.
a few other personal touches:
gruumsh is not a god, but a primordial, demon lord. it was in the war between gods and primordials that correlon shot his eye out with an arrow.
lolth is not chaotic evil, but evil. so, no demon queen of spiders, just spider queen. i have held this view since early 3e and i am glad to see that drow finally are evil, not chaotic evil.
bane's forces are in an eternal war with kord's forces, not gruumsh's forces. and sometimes, bahamut's forces get in on the act, but not perpetually, like the first two gods.
orcus seeks to vanquish both the raven queen (death) and vecna (undeath).
i have been thinking about placing the principal home of the drow in the underdark of the shadowfell. the result would be eladrin (feywild), elf (natural world), and drow (shadowfell).
eladrin versus fomorian
shadar kai versus drow
i would very much like to learn more about the primoridals. if i recall correctly, so far, the only primordial we have seen is orcus. i assume that other demon lords will also be primordials, but what the primordials that were not drawn into the abyss? who are they? how do the elemental chaos primordials' agendas differ from the abyss primordials' (i mean beyond the obvious chotic evil thing)? if some gods reside outside of the astral sea, does that mean that some primordials do as well? or were they all beaten back into the elemental chaos, or killed?
I imagine orcus is a "small" primordial, at least I am hoping he is. I hope that the other primordials are closer to deity-level power. But yes, I would also like to see more info on these beings. Also I would like clarification on this part.
how do the elemental chaos primordials' agendas differ from the abyss primordials' (i mean beyond the obvious chotic evil thing)?
The designers said in a few instances (I think in the preview article) that alignment is pracitically a representation of which "team you play for" or somesuch. That makes me wonder, what are the differences between corrupted primordials like Orcus and (presumably) Demogorgon, and other primordials? So many of their interests will be aligned. Want to unmake the changes the gods imposed on the world? Check. Want to kill the gods? Check. Want to bring about a new era of chaos? Check. So I would really like something to make demons (corrupted elementals) distinct from the primordials and their uncorrupted elementals. What really is the difference between a corrupted elemental or primordial (demon) thats chaotic evil and an uncorrupted elemental or primordial that is also chaotic evil? They are currently a bit too similiar for me to feel comfy. I'm running my lore on the premise that demons and the formerly primordial demon princes want to actively warp and destroy reality, until all that is left is the abyss, and that they would kill the uncorrupted primordials if they could. The primordials and elementals, however, want to break the gods hold on the world, but don't necessarily want to destory it so much as rule it in its chaos. But thats just how Im choosing to implement it. I would like some official fleshing out of this part of the lore.
if some gods reside outside of the astral sea, does that mean that some primordials do as well? or were they all beaten back into the elemental chaos, or killed?
I am planning on using the idea that some primordials were "trapped" in the world as a storyline. I'm thinking of using Dagon (not sure if I will use him as a demon prince or make a regular primordial), and having him be the king of all monsters in the depths of the ocean.
I imagine orcus is a "small" primordial, at least I am hoping he is. I hope that the other primordials are closer to deity-level power. But yes, I would also like to see more info on these beings. Also I would like clarification on this part.
I'd just like to point out that Orcus is only a couple of levels lower then a god. As I recall it was stated at one point that Moradin would roughly be a level 35 Solo encounter. So it isn't like he is a small fish of the primoridals, I'd probably put him as mid range with high tier primoridals being around level 37 or something.
So many of their interests will be aligned. Want to unmake the changes the gods imposed on the world? Check. Want to kill the gods? Check. Want to bring about a new era of chaos? Check. So I would really like something to make demons (corrupted elementals) distinct from the primordials and their uncorrupted elementals.
My understanding is that the demon princes want to destroy everything, even each other, and thusly can't work together with the primordials who want their own creations to flourish.
I hope we will!!
what do you guys think of gruumsh as a primordial?
But he's a god!
Use your discretion, Havoc.
what do you guys think of gruumsh as a primordial?
Depends on several factors such as if you will allow primordials to grant divine spells, whether you care if Gruumush grants spells to his followers, and i'm sure several other factors(I can't think of any more at the moment). However I personally wouldn't because then you end up with basically two Yeenoghus(patron demon of gnolls). I mean really the only thing seperating the two is that Grumush is a god, a few details based off of that difference, and what breed of savage humanoid worships them.
If you are absolutely married to the idea though, why not have him be a primordial that defected to the gods side during the war because he realized the primordials were going to lose?It would give him a unique position as he tows the line between his primordial nature and keeping his activities in line so that the other gods don't out right smite him.
Orcus is really strange. He's the first demon lord/corrupted primordial, but his goal is to destroy death and to usher in a new age of undeath. Though chaotic evil, that's a lot less bad sounding than either oblivion (Raven Queen/unaligned) or eternal torture (Asmodeus/evil territory). But that basically means that you should take all the ravening destroyer bit about naughty elementals with a grain of salt.
Me personally, I'm inclined to have some of the Primordials be reasonably benign, particularly the Frost Giants/Titans, who were benign in Nordic myth, in contrast to the Fire Giants, which wanted to end the world.
That's what I did :D
But all that aside:
I can imagine Gruumsh as a Primordial, they should release more info on the Primordials (perhaps in an article) so that you can use them as alternate deity choices, cus in 4th IMHO (even though I dun use the setting) there aren't enough deity choices, worshiping Primordials could be the answer.
Just do what you feel works, ask your players for their opinion, then apply if you get an agreement.
I'm not at all a fan of Orcus (or any of the demon princes) being primordials. I'm also not a fan of gods being "level 31+ encounters".
Yeah I'm with you on this one. I could almost be OK with it with something like Demogorgon, but lumping in Yeenoghu with them just ruins it for me.
As for worshipping a primordial, remember they were basically just engines of creation and destruction, they meant to destroy the world as soon as they finished building it. Only the gods’ interference stopped them.
Any primordial that does live is imprisoned somewhere nigh unreachable.
Bel
Moradin is circa 38... and he is a greater deity. So, a lesser deity may be in the range of Orcus or Demogorgon. That is terryfing. A god may be strong, but the demon princes have hordes of demons to fight fo them. Rich Baker (?) said that Orcus and Demogorgon, if they fight together agains a greater deity, would win.
Moradin is circa 38... and he is a greater deity. So, a lesser deity may be in the range of Orcus or Demogorgon. That is terryfing. A god may be strong, but the demon princes have hordes of demons to fight fo them. Rich Baker (?) said that Orcus and Demogorgon, if they fight together agains a greater deity, would win.
But gods have armies of angels as well, plus other gods surely would help them out.
She shredded that GOD of portails... Aoskar...
Demons, on the other hand, just want to destroy. They work to utterly annihilate all creation. Freeing the world from the bounds of order is not what they seek, but rather unmaking the world entirely. They are the enemies of both Primordials and Immortals, and indeed any being that values its own existence (including, presumably and paradoxically, demons themselves).
That being said, I assume that future primordials will be beings like the Archomentals, beings that personify the very building blocks of the universe. I wouldn't be surprised to see Imix among the post-30th-level creatures in the Manual of the Planes.
I assume that future primordials will be beings like the Archomentals, beings that personify the very building blocks of the universe. I wouldn't be surprised to see Imix among the post-30th-level creatures in the Manual of the Planes.
me likes.
of course, they would not be as one dimensional (ahem, element[al]) as before, so as to be more in line with the 4E rendition of elementals.
on a separate note, back in 3E, i called driders becoming Lolth's favored (instead of disfavored) and drows becoming (neutral) evil (not chaotic evil). i just wished wotc had gone a step further by separating Lolth from demons. arachnid shaped exarchs and angels, with a smattering of devils is how i see her rolling.