I don't actually expect to get it, though.
I'm hoping for a no-wild-shape no-animal-tagalong pure-caster sort of druid, personally.
I don't actually expect to get it, though.
that should have been the witch
EDIT: with a lot of transmutation powers that would have both the arcane and primal keywords, and somehow accessible by druids, wizards, and perhaps shamans and warlocks, with controller, striker and leader riders attached. of course, the witch would have to be given some sort of feature that would make him slightly better at transmutation than the random wizard or druid who decides to poach the transmutation powers.
a witch's curse could have been hardwired to the witch as a class feature (or a series of progressing class features); thus, making witch curses inaccessible to other classes/builds/subclasses.
that should have been the witch
Eh. I can't imagine the witch as anything other than a type of wizard.
that should have been the witch
Eh. I can't imagine the witch as anything other than a type of wizard.
fair enough.
you say po-TAY-to. i say po-TAH-to. tra la la.
I'm hoping for a no-wild-shape no-animal-tagalong pure-caster sort of druid, personally.
I don't actually expect to get it, though.
that should have been the witch
+1
Personally, I have a hunch that the Protector Druid will be a new take on a Wild Shape Druid, that will probably switch roles much like the Berserker is a defender that becomes a striker while raging. Given the name, I think defender while in beast form makes the most sense, but the question becomes will it be a controller or a leader while in humanoid form?
Personally I'm hoping leader, since the Sentinel has only the bare minimum of features to call itself a leader (though it does do other stuff really well). Having a leader Druid with actual leader encounter powers would be pretty sweet.
Besides, the original Druid already switched roles (from controller to striker or defender) based on power selection, so I'm not sure whether the Protector will necessarily offer anything new, aside from being officially labeled as a multi-role class (though what you call it is meaningless in play). Case in point, a Guardian with Grasping Claws and Ruthless Killer already makes a fine defender while in beast form. Of course given the role flexibility of 4e Druids, regardless of what the Protector does there will certainly be overlap with an existing build or builds.
I doubt we will ever see a ranged defender. Its like a martial controller prob never happen.
Purely martial controller you mean. But yes, I somewhat doubt that it will be a ranged defender.
Its like a martial controller prob never happen.
Well the Hunter is Martial and Primal.
This would either mean limiting to thrown weapons or putting it as Ranged X instead of Ranged weapon.
This way it doesn't allow the defender to be so far out of range that the marked enemy can still attack it.
It would be a hard class to balance, for sure.
Protector kind of screams defender class, but then again, so does Sentinel.
Hmm, could be another leader not that you mention it.
Protector kind of screams defender class, but then again, so does Sentinel.
Hmm, could be another leader not that you mention it.
2 leader druid subclasses would be a we bit redundant.
But then again, the Wizard now has 3 controller sub classes.
Protector kind of screams defender class, but then again, so does Sentinel.
Hmm, could be another leader not that you mention it.
2 leader druid subclasses would be a we bit redundant.
But then again, the Wizard now has 3 controller sub classes.
4 actually. The wizard has 4 controller subclasses.
Protector kind of screams defender class, but then again, so does Sentinel.
Hmm, could be another leader not that you mention it.
2 leader druid subclasses would be a we bit redundant.
But then again, the Wizard now has 3 controller sub classes.
4 actually. The wizard has 4 controller subclasses.
Sorry, I forgot to count the Wizard itself.
Essentials+ has really killed what I liked about the 4e wizard, and that is that it had a focused niche, like just about every other class.
Odds are the Sha'Ir or whichever one the wizard is in the elemental book will also be a controller.
Yep, I think it's been confirmed that the Sha'ir is a Wizard subclass, but talk about screaming to be a Warlock subclass (Genie Pact).
And for the other 2 classses, I think the current speculation is:
-Elementalist a Sorcerer subclass
-Shugenja a Monk subclass
Odds are the Sha'Ir or whichever one the wizard is in the elemental book will also be a controller.
Yep, I think it's been confirmed that the Sha'ir is a Wizard subclass, but talk about screaming to be a Warlock subclass (Genie Pact).
And for the other 2 classses, I think the current speculation is:
-Elementalist a Sorcerer subclass
-Shugenja a Monk subclass
That would be my call since they said it would provide new subclasses for Monk and Sorcerer as well, and Shugenjas were divine elemental monks in the past.
Protector Druid is a caster based druid with area spells and a new summoning gimmick. Built on the PHB2 model. So, lose wild shape, get a new more robust summon perhaps and aoe control. Sign me up!
Article also confirmed Skald will be mba with an aura instead of majestic word and reaffirmed what we knew about Berserker and Witch.
Shugenjas were divine spell casters tied to the elements. I don't remember them having anything in common with monks accept maybe an Asia theme. They were closer to clerics or favoured souls.
Yeah, but the real-world Shugenjas were mountain monks in Japan. Monks already have this weird split between martial-artistry and meditation/almost religiousness – wheareabouts their psionic power derives from. There are ways to turn them more divine, like the Sacred Fist PPath, but this would be a way to make them elemental, with the Shugenja. We're not going to see Divine/Elemental classes because they're essentially at complete odds. Monk makes the most sense, because it's got the religious thing going for it (the main reason Shugenjas were divine in the previous edition) and, as Avatar inspires, you can mix elemental magic with martial art forms. It's a cool concept.
Back on topic, I'm really excited that the Protector is more based on the Guardian Druid than the Predator. We've now got three essential Druid builds: One that splits its time between Humanoid caster and Wildshaped animal melee combatant forms, one that fights in melee, heals, and has an animal companion, and one that spends all its time casting and summoning. These are the three main Druid archetypes (Animal Companion, Summon Nature's Ally, and Wildshaping) as we've seen in the previous editions. And allow you to play a warrior leader druid, a more castery druid, or a animorphing druid, all which are really fun.
if only . . .
"The decision to include a druid build came about for a few reasons. First, although the Feywild is infused with arcane magic, it still contains a strong primeval nature."
"The result is the protector witch druid. This druid focuses on the "nature spellcaster" aspect of the druid, emphasizing area control spells, transmutation and summoning. Like the bard, almost all of the druid powers in the book are compatible with the class' incarnation from Player's Handbook 2."
EDIT: look at the sample witch spells: (i) beast switch (ii) foe to frog; and (iii) savage tranformation. all of these scream primal to me.
if only . . .
"The decision to include a druid build came about for a few reasons. First, although the Feywild is infused with arcane magic, it still contains a strong primeval nature.""The result is the protector witch druid. This druid focuses on the "nature spellcaster" aspect of the druid, emphasizing area control spells, transmutation and summoning. Like the bard, almost all of the druid powers in the book are compatible with the class' incarnation from Player's Handbook 2."
EDIT: look at the sample witch spells: (i) beast switch (ii) foe to frog; and (iii) savage tranformation. all of these scream primal to me.
They look very arcane to me.
Why don't you call your Protector Druid a Witch? Or even MC?
Arcane Power Source, in my personal opinion, has a lot to do with the fundamentals of how magic works in the world, the study of it, and the channeling of raw magical energy. Witches study magic just like other Wizards, Bards, Artificers, Swordmages, Warlocks, and Sorcerers do. Well, Sorcerers don't really study, but that's because they're the natural A-students who didn't have to study because they can just feel the pulse of the magic. And the Warlocks cheated on the test.
Witches play the wizard game a little differently from Arcanists, Mages, and Bladesingers (and presumably Sha'ir, but the way they GET their spells is quite similar, apparently). Witches carry out an ancient study of magic that is very much ritualistic; their work is like alchemy for magic (rather than for mundane items to create volatile, curative, and other effects). They have an endless knowledge of spell formulae that they prepare each day in consultion with their familiar, able to draw on a different selection of spells every day and be fine with it. Spells like foe to frog and savage transformation do not scream primal here to me because they require knowledge of the fundamentals of manipulating shape and form – of transmutation. Being able to turn into a beast is very different from being able to turn someone else's blood to iron, or their entire form into a tiny animal.
Witches also rarely use powers in stories similar to what the Druid and Sentinel have (though I don't know about the Protector, though he summons and I don't see a lot of Summoning witches unless summoning is a core concept of the setting, and witch is just another name for a summoner magic-user sort of thing vs mundane warrior-type characters). No, witches enchant, they beguile, they sling globs of acid and poison, they reanimate the dead and make shadows come to life (Now I'm thinking Shadowman from The Princess and the Frog, remember Witch-Doctors are easily classifiable as another term for witches, especially with that movie and it's Shadow and Light disciplines for voodoo witch-doctors), and yes, of course, they turn you into a frog. These are very much arcane effects, and effects that more discipline mages and arcanists grasp onto with their intensive studies. It only makes sense that the Witch is the most primitive, and yet powerful (because she doesn't need to spend years of schooling) form of Wizard.
That said, she falls into a similar category as Sorcerers do, but she doesn't have the magic inherent pulsating in her blood – she was drawn to that path, but she chose it, it didn't choose her. Well, some witch stories do have witches have magic in their blood – and for that, Sorcerers work great too! Especially the Cosmic Sorcerer. In fact, I think I might put together a PARTY of Witches (a Feylock, a Cosmic Sorcerer, a Witch, an Artificer or maybe Prescient Bard…) and it would be a very fun game.
The point is, the flavour is ultimately mutable, but WotC's decision makes perfect sense for me in this case. It doesn't for you, so you can refluff. And eventually you may get your cake too. But this month, I get mine. Have a
if only . . .
"The decision to include a druid build came about for a few reasons. First, although the Feywild is infused with arcane magic, it still contains a strong primeval nature.""The result is the protector witch druid. This druid focuses on the "nature spellcaster" aspect of the druid, emphasizing area control spells, transmutation and summoning. Like the bard, almost all of the druid powers in the book are compatible with the class' incarnation from Player's Handbook 2."
EDIT: look at the sample witch spells: (i) beast switch (ii) foe to frog; and (iii) savage tranformation. all of these scream primal to me.
They look very arcane to me.
Why don't you call your Protector Druid a Witch? Or even MC?
Arcane Power Source, in my personal opinion, has a lot to do with the fundamentals of how magic works in the world, the study of it, and the channeling of raw magical energy. Witches study magic just like other Wizards, Bards, Artificers, Swordmages, Warlocks, and Sorcerers do. Well, Sorcerers don't really study, but that's because they're the natural A-students who didn't have to study because they can just feel the pulse of the magic. And the Warlocks cheated on the test.
Witches play the wizard game a little differently from Arcanists, Mages, and Bladesingers (and presumably Sha'ir, but the way they GET their spells is quite similar, apparently). Witches carry out an ancient study of magic that is very much ritualistic; their work is like alchemy for magic (rather than for mundane items to create volatile, curative, and other effects). They have an endless knowledge of spell formulae that they prepare each day in consultion with their familiar, able to draw on a different selection of spells every day and be fine with it. Spells like foe to frog and savage transformation do not scream primal here to me because they require knowledge of the fundamentals of manipulating shape and form – of transmutation. Being able to turn into a beast is very different from being able to turn someone else's blood to iron, or their entire form into a tiny animal.
Witches also rarely use powers in stories similar to what the Druid and Sentinel have (though I don't know about the Protector, though he summons and I don't see a lot of Summoning witches unless summoning is a core concept of the setting, and witch is just another name for a summoner magic-user sort of thing vs mundane warrior-type characters). No, witches enchant, they beguile, they sling globs of acid and poison, they reanimate the dead and make shadows come to life (Now I'm thinking Shadowman from The Princess and the Frog, remember Witch-Doctors are easily classifiable as another term for witches, especially with that movie and it's Shadow and Light disciplines for voodoo witch-doctors), and yes, of course, they turn you into a frog. These are very much arcane effects, and effects that more discipline mages and arcanists grasp onto with their intensive studies. It only makes sense that the Witch is the most primitive, and yet powerful (because she doesn't need to spend years of schooling) form of Wizard.
That said, she falls into a similar category as Sorcerers do, but she doesn't have the magic inherent pulsating in her blood – she was drawn to that path, but she chose it, it didn't choose her. Well, some witch stories do have witches have magic in their blood – and for that, Sorcerers work great too! Especially the Cosmic Sorcerer. In fact, I think I might put together a PARTY of Witches (a Feylock, a Cosmic Sorcerer, a Witch, an Artificer or maybe Prescient Bard…) and it would be a very fun game.
The point is, the flavour is ultimately mutable, but WotC's decision makes perfect sense for me in this case. It doesn't for you, so you can refluff. And eventually you may get your cake too. But this month, I get mine. Have a
wotc faces a tricky challenge in 4e: in earlier editions, wizards did pretty much everything, magic-wise. however, in 4e, magic has been segmented (which i enjoy). you still have the division of divine versus arcane magic (and psionics), but now you also have primal, shadow, and elemental magics. this, i think, compels the wizard to give up its hold on everything magical, which is how 4e began. unfortunately, lately, a new school of thought appears to be prevailing at wotc, wherein wizards, once again, can do everything magical. one problem with this renewed approach is that the wonderful new sources of magic power become diluted and unspecial.
regarding reflavoring, although i know that i am free to reflavor everything and anything in d&D, i enjoy canon that gets it "right".
It really comes down to the chance on who got what they wanted. I think this is canon that gets it right and you don't, so I lucked out this time and you didn't. Unfortunate for you, but if it was an all-primal witch, like a druid subclass, I would be pretty upset, actually.
That's all I'm saying. It's a matter of viewpoint, and that's definitely rather subjective. Now imagine the hundreds of other viewpoints that WotC has to navigate before deciding "What's right" when they establish canon. It's actually a pretty delicate job.
I haven't had time to go through it in detail, but the protector druid IS a caster without wildshape and without an animal companion. It does, on the other hand, trade away access to standard daily powers for a fixed suite of daily summons. There is some flexibility in this suite though:
First, the druid chooses from two different circles (Renewal and Shelter), each of which grant a couple of features (Primal Guardian or Primal Predator being one; the other affects a feature power), and also determines which summons are available.
Each circle grants access to two different summons each at 1st, 15th, and 29th level, and you can choose which one you want at the time you use the daily summoning power. They follow the typical summoned/instinctive pattern.
The druid also gets an area burst 1 encounter power that creates difficult terrain (although the druid can ignore it) and that is also modified by your choice of circle. (Renewal = allies in the zone regain more hit points when they spend a surge; Shelter = allies can also ignore the difficult terrain effect).
They also get to choose three Primal Attunements, which are equivalent to cantrips. There are five of those available, four of which are at-will and one of which is an encounter power. All have relatively minor utility effects, although some of them have the potential to be very useful in the right circumstances.
Otherwise, they appear to follow the usual power progression, and the book has a few new powers at each level. There are also some daily attack powers, which the protector can access by spending a feat to acquire Wild Shape and the ability to take a daily attack power in place of a daily summon (though this would still leave them with only three daily attack powers if they make the exchange each time, so it doesn't completely obsolete the original wild shape druid), and a second feat that allows other druids to exchange a druid daily attack power for one use of the protector's summoning.
Of course, other types of druids are free to take these new powers as well.
Also, how are daily summonings different from the daily attack summons that Druids got in Primal Power?
Finally, I wonder if there's another thread where people are spoiling stuff… I feel bad asking about things other than the Protector Druid here…
EDIT: There one is.
The daily summons don't seem to be all that different individually (although I have the first-glance impression that they're a little stronger overall), but they do have much more flexibility: you can choose whichever creature you want from among those available to you at the time you use the power rather than choosing one specific daily summoning power.
Oh, one other thing compared to the standard druid: you only get two at-wills at 1st level, although you won't be using (or needing) beast form powers by default, so there's no reason for you to get an extra one (and the Primal Attunement and Nature's Growth powers more than compensate for the loss anyway).
Wis Con/Dex, although if you're going with the Dex route then you could probably choose Int without any major difficulties. The daily summons don't seem to be all that different individually (although I have the first-glance impression that they're a little stronger overall), but they do have much more flexibility: you can choose whichever creature you want from among those available to you at the time you use the power rather than choosing one specific daily summoning power. Oh, one other thing compared to the standard druid: you only get two at-wills at 1st level, although you won't be using (or needing) beast form powers by default, so there's no reason for you to get an extra one (and the Primal Attunement and Nature's Growth powers more than compensate for the loss anyway).
I asked this in the Spoiler thread, but it seems to have gotten overlooked. I was informed there was a feat that let you swap in regular Druid dailies when you got an additional use of the Summon. Am I interpretting correctly, then, that you are stuck with one Summon and cannot swap them all out for regular Druid Dailies?
This isn't as hindering as it sounds because the ability to access the higher level summons is unchanged: that 1st level use can call up the 15th or 29th level creatures once you reach the appropriate level.
It's "where you would normally gain an additional use of the summon natural ally power" so by the looks of it the 1st level summon can't be swapped out. This isn't as hindering as it sounds because the ability to access the higher level summons is unchanged: that 1st level use can call up the 15th or 29th level creatures once you reach the appropriate level.
Yeah, but I hate Summons. I was hoping this would be a druid I could finally play without having to go 'okay, here's some element of it I do not want to use and never will'. But ... disappointed again.
It's "where you would normally gain an additional use of the summon natural ally power" so by the looks of it the 1st level summon can't be swapped out. This isn't as hindering as it sounds because the ability to access the higher level summons is unchanged: that 1st level use can call up the 15th or 29th level creatures once you reach the appropriate level.
Yeah, but I hate Summons. I was hoping this would be a druid I could finally play without having to go 'okay, here's some element of it I do not want to use and never will'. But ... disappointed again.
So take the replacement feat.
Wildshapers have wildshape, Sentinels have animal companion, Protectors have summon nature's ally.
Each subclass is grounded in the history of Druids in D&D. Wait, you wanted to play a historical/mythological druid?
But there's Shamans, and Seekers, and Bards, and Skalds, and Wizards of all varieties, especially Witches, all for that. @_@
I wish the druid subclasses didnt sound so defendery though.
I do too. In this case, I have a really hard time imagining a witch that is not at least part arcane, even if she is part primal.
It really comes down to the chance on who got what they wanted. I think this is canon that gets it right and you don't, so I lucked out this time and you didn't. Unfortunate for you, but if it was an all-primal witch, like a druid subclass, I would be pretty upset, actually.
That's all I'm saying. It's a matter of viewpoint, and that's definitely rather subjective. Now imagine the hundreds of other viewpoints that WotC has to navigate before deciding "What's right" when they establish canon. It's actually a pretty delicate job.
the funny thing is that, although i generally am not a fan of dual source classes, the witch seems ideal for arcane/primal; perhaps, even with powers poachable by both wizards and druids.
I suppose that, if you're DETERMINED to get rid of the summon, you could multiclass and power-swap it out.
Or perhaps Hybriding would work ...
I suppose that, if you're DETERMINED to get rid of the summon, you could multiclass and power-swap it out.
Or perhaps Hybriding would work ...
Can't hybrid within a class, but you could hybrid to get the dailies of, say, a Seeker or a Shaman or something.
Call the Spirits (At-Will): Similar to prestedigitation, although it can cause some actual minor environmental effects (increasing the radius of a light source or opening/closing a door).
Senses of the Wild (At-Will): This allows the character to detect several things within a close burst 5: diseases, a type of plant or animal, and corpses; it can also provide a skill bonus to detect poisons and poison-using hazards.
Verdant Touch (Encounter): This has two possible effects as a close burst 1: negate difficult terrain caused by natural plants or cause plants in the area to bloom or grow, even in barren terrain.
Vine Rope (At-Will): This effectively lets you conjure and use a vine as a rope (equivalent to a silk rope) when you need it.
Air Spirit (At-Will): This functions as a combined Mage Hand and Light effect, requiring a sustain minor to keep it going. Call the Spirits (At-Will): Similar to prestedigitation, although it can cause some actual minor environmental effects (increasing the radius of a light source or opening/closing a door). Senses of the Wild (At-Will): This allows the character to detect several things within a close burst 5: diseases, a type of plant or animal, and corpses; it can also provide a skill bonus to detect poisons and poison-using hazards. Verdant Touch (Encounter): This has two possible effects as a close burst 1: negate difficult terrain caused by natural plants or cause plants in the area to bloom or grow, even in barren terrain. Vine Rope (At-Will): This effectively lets you conjure and use a vine as a rope (equivalent to a silk rope) when you need it.
Verdant touch sounds overpowered for Dark Sun. That's like at least Paragon tier effect for primal heroes in that setting. May need some adjustments for the setting.
I dis the proterctor druid.
no wildshape
Otherwise, without seeing the power selection or (especially) summon list, it's really hard to say how good the subclass is or isn't, and I certainly wouldn't get my hopes up sight unseen, especially after Heroes of Shadow.
On a more general note, I'm glad to see a class more focused on summoning as a thing, though I'm not exactly happy to have it be a druid subclass. I would have rather seen another look at wild shape, which is pretty clunky in the original druid. But I have a hard time being bitter at this subclass for not meshing with the parent class, when that's just the state of the game right now.
the protector druid is up on the november works.
I dis the proterctor druid.
no wildshape
It can get wildshape with a feat from what I hear, so there's really no need to dis it on that front.
But as long as its at-wills/encounters aren't restricted its off to atleast a decent start via the original druid choices.
(You won't be able to make use of Beast Form keyword powers if you don't take the Wild Shape swap feat, but that's not really a restriction in my book.)
No restrictions on at-wills or encounters. (You won't be able to make use of Beast Form keyword powers if you don't take the Wild Shape swap feat, but that's not really a restriction in my book.)
Yeah I sort of expected, and am fine with that.
or is that not the name of the feat.
beastwalker feat or something??
or is that not the name of the feat.
I don't have the book, I think it is Beastwalker Circle.
I kind of wonder if the sentinal can take it.....
ah so its in the feywild book then.
I kind of wonder if the sentinal can take it.....
The Sentinel's can take their at-wills as they wish. They can also take the same feat other druids can to take Summon Natural Ally as their dailies.
A little thread drift but this reminded me of something I've noticed Actually I've noticed that some of the themes take key feature or thematic quality of some builds, adds a twist and offers them as unofficial multiclasses.
Think about it. Unseelie Agent=Hexblade, Fey Beast Tamer=Sentenial, Upcoming Wild Hunt Rider=most likely Cavalier, Spellscarred Harbringer=Spellscarred Class, Pack cast aka Werewolf=Vampire(in a general monster sense). The Turithel or what ever its called took Hengeyokia stuff, I mean why be a Hengeyokai now, what with this theme you could just take this theme and pick a race that has more support.
Still I like themes, they've given 4e new life.
Back on topic I like what I'm hearing about the protector. I would like more info on how various build interact. I mean Cavaliers and Blackguards hate each other and Witch's don't get along with other Wizard subclasses because of essentially comes down to classism on the other subclasses. How does the protector view the Sentenial and Odruid? (which needs a proper name like they gave the Ocleric aka templar).
Are they rivals, allies, different primal domains, different roles of the same Druidic society? Do they get along with other primal classes? For example neither the blackguard, Warlocks, Vampires, and Witch's don't get along with most Divine classes, with exceptions.
Actually I've noticed that some of the themes take key feature or thematic quality of some builds, adds a twist and offers them as unofficial multiclasses.
I noticed when I first seen Paragon Paths that they were potentially and feel wise very character defining... and that I sometimes had big issues with the oops now I am an X... which many seemed to present. I wanted them (bloodmage for instance) to start at level one... ie I wanted them to be what themes now are.... so yes I agree.