But where does that leave us with some of the new power sources? Martial doesn't really need a metaplot it's martials (Poor Martial.
) But Psionics and Ki presents us with room for very light meta plotting. What about the ideology of schools of thought. What if... at one time the Psionic and Ki powersources were one school of thought that had a rivalry about what was the one true path of self discoverty.The Psionic path eshewed the body in the study of the mind. Mind over body, over EVERYTHING. They turned inward seeking inner worlds to draw greater power from.
The Ki path took a more holistic approach and sought balance of the mind, body, and most importantly soul drawing the elements against each other for greater power.
Now, the 2 schools have drifted apart, but a friendly to hostle rival keeps flaring up when members of these twin ideologies meet. Sometimes it's playful and interesting such as rival PC's one uping each other. Other times it's deadly as the Githyanki and Githzerai masters use these powers against each other in deadly combat.
Thoughts?
-Mind = Psionic
-Body = Martial
-Soul = Ki
Ya, but I doubt they'll give Martial a meta plot at all. Doesn't mean that it might not be tied in there but still.
I just hope they don't tie power sources directly to planes.
I just hope they don't tie power sources directly to planes.
Agreed. Ki and Psi both seem to come from the ideology of self-empowerment. Which is why I think the rival schools of thought metaplot works well from them. Imagine a faction of people looking for power NOT tied to a plane or outside source. They discover it but it happens to have 2 different paths of discovery. Lo, the two power sources are born.
Neither arcane nor shadow seem to have metaplots either. Truthfully we don't even know if Elemental will be part of the metaplot either(as we don't know if it will be drawing on the power of primordials or not). I don't see a need to give ki or psionics a metaplot.
But what's cool is the metaplot that exists in the power sources is VERY passive. You don't have to use it in your games. At all. But it's there and it's interesting. Elemental and Divine classes might work together just fine, but it's kinda cool to play up a 3 way rivalry between Elemental, Divine, and Primal characters. It's just more optional fun for the characters.
Oh and hell ya. I loved Rival Schools. One of Capcom's best...second only to the Capcom Vs. series.
They're three different schools of self-empowerment. While the Martial Classes may seem united in only that they don't have magical / mystical / psychic powers, they actually come out of a definite tradition of self-empowerment, and the conflict over whether Samurai should be Fighters or a separate Ki Class is case enough to point towards the conflict between Ki and Martial. IF the Samurai do come in as a Ki Class, you can bet there will be conflict between them and the Fighters, in terms of ideology (I can see Samurai following the Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Mushashi, and thereby focusing on their inner Void as well as battle and strategy).
That said, Shadow seems to be tied to the Shadowfell, and Primal also seems to have some connections with the Feywild as well. Though Primal can just as easily be present in the Natural World or the Shadowfell, it just seems more fit in the wild and untamed World of Færie.
Arcane is almost more so the Natural World Power Source than Primal, since it connects to the Magic of the entire Cosmos, which centres on our Material Plane. Warlocks and Sorcerers together seem to draw from practically every type of creature origin (Immortal, Fey, Aberrant, Shadow, Natural, Elemental, and soon Vestiges as well). Wizards and Bards draw their magic from the Arcane Energies themselves, whether expressed in Eldritch Lore or Primæval Song. Swordmages draw from this all pervasive "Magic" as well, combining it with swordstyle disciplines. Artificers utilise it in their alchemy and item/equipment enchantment.
So if you HAD to draw Planar parallels, I would say:
Astral Sea - Divine
Mortal World - Arcane
Feywild - Primal
Shadowfell - Shadow
Elemental Chaos - Elemental
And then there are three Power sources left out from all that; that is, the Power Sources that come from Within, rather than from Without. This is the Key Difference between those Power sources above, and the ones below. Because those are essentially working with the nature of the cosmos, and these are working with the nature of the self.
Body - Martial
Mind - Psionic
Soul - Ki
And that's my two cents.
and Primal also seems to have some connections with the Feywild as well.
Primal classes get their powers from primal spirits, and primal spirits are the personaification of the world(as in the plane). If we are tieing the primal classes to a plane, it is the world. They might get along with beings from the feywild, but they don't draw their power form them.
But in terms of concept, Fey are deeply similar to Primal Spirits. The only real difference is that the "Primal Spirits" are often in the form of Natural Creatures; but with the Tendency of those creatures to have Fey variations that are "Higher on the Spirit Plane," there's a lot of overlap.
Just like how Zerthimon proclaimed the path of two skies to Gith, so it will be with Ki and Psi.
*sauce I always mistype sauce when talking about power sources, so it kind of stuck.. Personally, I still like the Martial Power Sauce flavour the best.
I'm hoping, because to me it seems to be the logical extension, that Psi will be the prime power sauce* for the Githyanki and Ki the prime power sauce for the Githzerai.
Just like how Zerthimon proclaimed the path of two skies to Gith, so it will be with Ki and Psi.
Thanks Blasted. Zerthimon's proclimation is a good way to look at the division.
You guys are focusing more on the symetry of the power sources than just on the two I'm featuring. Sure, you might call Martial part of a triad between Psi and Ki, but I see Psi and Ki as both internal paths with two different reasonings behind them. Concept (psi) vs Connection (ki). I don't know how they'll meta plot up these sources but I doubt that Martial will ever get much of a meta plot. Anyone can find a master with the will and learn Martial attacks. That's the point of Martial. Psi and Ki take a different ideology.
Psi is supposed to be using the power of your mind to manipulate the world around you.
Ki is supposed to focusing on the inner self to manipulate the body in ways most couldn't.
Primal classes get their powers from primal spirits, and primal spirits are the personaification of the world(as in the plane). If we are tieing the primal classes to a plane, it is the world. They might get along with beings from the feywild, but they don't draw their power form them.
A lot of the non-Eladrin Archfey (like Archdevils) are described as being primal spirits though.
A lot of the non-Eladrin Archfey (like Archdevils) are described as being primal spirits though.
Could you give a source on this? It isn't in the MM, any issue of Dragon, or Manual of Planes(although I only skimmed that one) and I really don't feel like digging through ever other source I have to try to find it......as an aside though archdevils are neither archfey or primal spirits. I'm assuming you meant something else, but I'm not sure what.
Weather or not that lends support for your powersource 'metaplot', I don't know. Just my speculations.
And I haven't seen any material on the non-Eladrin Archfey being Primal Spirits. In fact, there hasn't been any material on what the Primal Spirits are beyond the very vague description in the 4e preview books and the preview of the Primal Power Source as it appears in PHB2 that we got a month or two back.
There hasn't been any connection made between the Archfey and the Primal Spirits, therefore, as far as my knowledge lends. I didn't see anything on them in the Manual of the Planes either.
That doesn't change my position that the Primal Spirits play essentially the same archetypal role as the Archfey.
As for the Dichotomy between Ki and Psionic, I like the idea of Githzerai being Monks and other "Soul"-based classes, and Githyanki being the various types of Psions (as I assume will become the classification of all Psionic classes, rather than a Psionic Wizard with many different disciplines).
However, the Githzerai were presented with a psychic power in the Monster Manual, and I would assume that they use a mixture of Ki and Psionics. I'm sure we'll see more on them in December, when we get The Plane Below.
As I see it, Psionics is about utilising your mind and emotions to reach out and effect the world around you. Ki is about utilising the inner energy of your soul to create a force and project it upon the world around you. Martial, however, I would also include, because it is seems to be about using your force of will and determination to overcome all challenges.
I originally thought that emotion would be part of Ki, but it seems Psionics has absorbed that through the Empath. Not that that's a bad thing. It just means that two of the three Prime Aspects of the Biometaphysics are in Psionics.
Knowledge, Emotion, and Will. But Ki seems to also present aspects of Willpower, and I could easily see a dichotomy between the selfish/self-betterment willpower of the Martial, and the selfless willpower of the Ki.
That is, Ki is essentially about letting go of the self, as the world is more important than you, while Martial is all about the self, and making yourself stronger.
But the dichotomy of Psionics and Ki is somewhat different, as Ki looks inward even as it rejects the self, while Psionics looks inward but accepts the self.
Actually, the best example of the difference between Ki and Psionics, I think, is evident in the first installment of the hit GBA RPG, Golden Sun. Though there, Psionics were called Psynergy, Ki, and Spiritual Energy, amongst other things, and they had ties to Elemental as well. But that's probably because they're not on the 4e Power Source system (for obvious reasons). But what they called "Chi" in the game is probably closest to the idea of Ki (and Ki in fact is just the Japanese name for Chi), and the distinguishing between Ki (4e Psionics) and Chi (4e Ki) is very on the mark.
Master Feh said this, "This warrior [referring to Isaac, an Earth-aligned Psynergy Adept] is very wise. He used the power of his mind to pinpoint energy from afar and release it upon a distant object." This is as opposed to Chi, which in the game is focusing the inner energy of the body to affect the world outside, but couldn't come up with a power like "Force," which is very much like Magic Missile or whatever we used to call the Psion's version of that.
Now, I know that Ki users will probably get energy blasts a la Hadouken or the Kamehameha Wave, but the essence is that it doesn't come from the mind, but rather from within the body. How the soul is worked into that is what I'm still wondering, and it probably will be a watered-down version of Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Confucian, and other concepts of the soul and may even incorporate Miyamoto's concept (well, not necessarily his, but the one he popularised) of the Void Element. I know that could be getting close to Elemental, but I feel it embodies the idea of emptying the mind and moving into a plane of oneness with nothingness, which could be very much a concept in 4e Ki.
Could you give a source on this? It isn't in the MM, any issue of Dragon, or Manual of Planes(although I only skimmed that one) and I really don't feel like digging through ever other source I have to try to find it......as an aside though archdevils are neither archfey or primal spirits. I'm assuming you meant something else, but I'm not sure what.
Manual of the Planes p36 calls them "awakened spirits of mighty forests, mountains, or rivers," and "sentient incarnations of different kinds of animals." Sounds like primal spirits to me.
And the Archdevil mention was a hierarchy comparison, not racial comparison.
So I assume you meant when you compared Archdevils was that you were clarifying what Archfey were to people who didn't know what they were?
I pretty much agree, since Archfey are probably about the same level of power as the Archdevils and as Exarchs for that matter, and some of the weaker Demon Princes and the weakest Primordials.
But I would assume that Primal Spirits, if they are Fey, are the strongest of the strongest and eldest of the eldest of the Fey, and even greater than the Archfey themselves; i.e. the Archfey are beneath them.
That would put the Primal Spirits on par with Primordials and Deities (though Deities have the special deitic clause that makes them obviously stronger than the other two in general).
Which is exactly why I said that it was overlapping in theme and archetype with the Primal Spirits, but I did not say that the Archfey ARE the Primal Spirits. Wizards has not given us that clarification yet.
Eh, you're probably right about them not being the same.
That would put the Primal Spirits on par with Primordials and Deities (though Deities have the special deitic clause that makes them obviously stronger than the other two in general).
I wouldn't go that far. According to the Bane article the only reason (one of the only reasons?) the gods won was because they became organized, which the primordials never really did. That suggests to me that individually the gods are weaker than individual primordials, and the primordials might be more powerful if they organized, but their very nature prevents that.
Course, I'm probably entirely wrong on that.
The Deities are relatively few in number.
The only reason I would place Deities on a higher level than the Primordials and the Primal Spirits is that the Deities have all sorts of special rules, such as that if they "die" they reanimate a certain amount of time later in their realm, and sometimes can only be completely destroyed by highly specific methods. In essence, what makes them divine, as opposed to spirits of great power.
Remember, anyone with a strong enough will can shape the Elemental Chaos. Only the Deities who are masters of their Dominions can shape their territories.
No, you're right about that the Gods only won the war because they were organised. But you also have to remember that there are hundreds or thousands of Primordials, not to mention their Titan, Giant, Archon, Demon, Slaad, Efreet, Elemental, and whatnot armies.
The Deities are relatively few in number.
And they owe Bane ALOT. If he wasn't such a jerk he'd be running the place.
Maul-Tar for example, was stronger than any single god (and required the combined efforts of Bahumat, Pelor, and Moradin to be defeated/imprisoned).
Then there was the fact that Io was killed by a Primordial, and that it required the combined efforts of his successors (Bahumat & Tiamat) to bring it low.
This gives me reason to believe that Primordials are stronger than gods (as a rule).
Imagine during the time of the God/Primodial war their attention was drawn away from world(s). Martial practices have always existed since one being drew weapon against another. Arcane delt with powers beyond the keen of this world, drawing upon the strange magics of the planes and ferreting out the secrets of the multiverse.
But in the midst of the great war...a group of mortals sought a power unbound to any one god or otherworldly patron. A power that didn't rely upon the chaos the planes had become. :D Eh, just me pondering.
Also, I think that even if WotC doesn't go so far as setting Psi and Ki in opposition as suggested here, the already revealed inclusion of Ki-based monks in PhBIII is a possible hint that A) githerzai will be a fully-stated race in PhBIII (to be the monks), and therefore B) githyanki will be there to keep the githerzai company, and thus C) psi will also be in there as a power source to match the githyanki race.
Anyway, that's my prediction. Just a hunch, but PhBIII will have both gith races and some Psi classes, based on the monk being there.
Maul-Tur [Dragon 370] in his [weakened/bound] form would easily give Vecna (but not Tiamat) a run for his money.
Sure, Maul-Tur can't discorporate, but you have to remember that Maul-Tur is a pale shadow of its former self, compared to Vecna/Tiamat who are at the height of their power.
Maul-Tur in all of his ancient glory would undoubtably rip either one of them to pieces in a one-on-one fight (and was most likely a L40+ solo at the height of its power).