If you think about it, the Primal Spirits that fuel the primal classes would also have a vested interest in making sure that the Far Realm stays far* away from the material world. After all, the beings of the Far Realm are alien in thought, aberrations that have no place in the natural cycles of the world. Thus, they provide more ways for champions of primal power to arise and stem the flow of madness.
The gods also want the lords of the Plane of Madness to stay away. After all, insane Cthulhu-worshipers aren't worshiping them, but more importantly, they likely see the most powerful entities in the Far Realm as a threat as great, or possibly greater, than the Primordials were. And so, the gods want to be sure that their flocks can defend themselves against the aberrations, and so allow more ways for divinely-empowered champions to strike out against them.
All three power sources have a vested interest in keeping the creatures Far Realm trapped in the Far Realm, and thus, I can see why the PHBIII is going to expand the Divine and Primal power sources, along with introducing the Psionic power source.
* Pun unintended... or was it? With the Far Realm, you never know.
I guess the lovecraftian far realm monsters are a better rationale than most to get a suite of science fiction powers into a fantasy game.
I've heard from several WOTC sources that the theme of the PHBIII is going to be "Far Realm Invasion," and that the Psionic power source emerged in the world largely as a reaction to the Far Realm's influence.
If you think about it, the Primal Spirits that fuel the primal classes would also have a vested interest in making sure that the Far Realm stays far* away from the material world. After all, the beings of the Far Realm are alien in thought, aberrations that have no place in the natural cycles of the world. Thus, they provide more ways for champions of primal power to arise and stem the flow of madness.
The gods also want the lords of the Plane of Madness to stay away. After all, insane Cthulhu-worshipers aren't worshiping them, but more importantly, they likely see the most powerful entities in the Far Realm as a threat as great, or possibly greater, than the Primordials were. And so, the gods want to be sure that their flocks can defend themselves against the aberrations, and so allow more ways for divinely-empowered champions to strike out against them.
All three power sources have a vested interest in keeping the creatures Far Realm trapped in the Far Realm, and thus, I can see why the PHBIII is going to expand the Divine and Primal power sources, along with introducing the Psionic power source.
* Pun unintended... or was it? With the Far Realm, you never know.
I like it!
Bel
For the primal, I can only see another striker (as a barbarian isn't that primal, even if he does now use spirits) and I would like to see someone who focused on transforming. But over and above that I can't guess at any of them
I can see that it fits the theme, but what I can't get is what the classes are. I cannot think of another divine class that doesn't jump-up-and-down on someone elses toes. Maybe a sort of Divine Oracle person, but apart from that I have no idea.
For the primal, I can only see another striker (as a barbarian isn't that primal, even if he does now use spirits) and I would like to see someone who focused on transforming. But over and above that I can't guess at any of them
I can't think of any, either, but so far I've been pleasantly surprised with even the classes I'm not interested in playing. I think PH3 will be a winner.
You have a Defender, Leader, Controller and Striker of each, I'm hard pressed to think of any classes that you could offer up in either that wouldn't infringe on those that are already available.
I could see 4 Psionic power source classes and maybe start introducing a couple Shadow ones, but other than that I just can't imagine what else one would want.
There could also be a Divine Leader who is more along the lines of the Warlord or Artificer: less healing and more infusing his allies with divine power.
I think the remaining design space is big enough to allow both of these to feel unique.
There's also the possibility that they go the same way as the Psion with completely new mechanics, though I personally find that a bit iffy.
Alright, here's a thought. It takes a moment to get too, but bear with me.
Each plane in the 4e cosmology (PoL) has races that are associated with it. To show:
Shadowfell: Revenant, Shader-kai
Feywild: Eldarin, Gnomes, and to a lesser extent Elves and Drow
Elemental Chaos: Genasi
Astral Sea: Deva and Tiefling
Prime: probably most everything else, but I tend to think of Goliaths, and Dwarfs
Humans are a bit of everything
So, By that list, we still don't have a race that corresponds to the Far Realms. Also, each PHB has a race that I don't think anyone was quite expecting, namely Dragonborn and Devas. Maybe a kind of mortal far-realm spawn race will be a suprise entry into the PHB3?
Just food for thought.
I love how all the pictures of the Deva have the gemstone in the middle of their forehead-- back right before 4E came out, I wrote about how one could do a more outlandish and bizzare angel race would be to follow the Native American and Hindu mythological sky people route and give them 3 eyes and blue skin as well as nonfunctional angel wings.
The wings never made it in, but all the art suggests the 3 eyes even if they don't have them. I guess this may be evidence that someone reads these boards-- or at least someone reads the same mythological stories I do.
Possibles in my opinion:
Divine
Someone who foresees the future and looks into the past as features. Leader
Someone who summons or transforms into divine beings (angels and up) for power.
Someone like the Ur-priest 3e
Someone that tries to convert people (i.e. domination, focus on the conversational skills etc.)
Primal:
Striker that focuses on transforming
Someone that uses minor spirits to cause mischeif?
Someone who can read minds and ca ntell us what WotC have got in stall for us?
Yeah I'm stuck on Primal
Divine: Templar A heavily armored striker that's a fushion of the Paladin, Avenger and Blackguard.
Primal: Witch a Controller who uses subtle spirit magic to manipulate foes with hexes, mind control, and nature magic.
But we do know that there is at least 1 Divine and Primal class (or at least I think we do). I think that it would be interesting to try and guess what they would be.
Possibles in my opinion:
Divine
Someone who foresees the future and looks into the past as features. Leader
Someone who summons or transforms into divine beings (angels and up) for power.
Someone like the Ur-priest 3e
Someone that tries to convert people (i.e. domination, focus on the conversational skills etc.)
Primal:
Striker that focuses on transforming
Someone that uses minor spirits to cause mischeif?
Someone who can read minds and ca ntell us what WotC have got in stall for us?
Yeah I'm stuck on Primal
I think that WotC mentioned something about a Hexblade class somewhere. I think there's a link on the "compiled future stuff" thread, or whatever that's called. Sounds like it could be primal to me.
Divine: Templar A heavily armored striker that's a fushion of the Paladin, Avenger and Blackguard.
What does this even mean? A class that is just stupidly more powerful than everyone else by getting the best everything?
That doesn't sound like a very valid class option. Frankly, the Templar concept is covered by the Paladin rather completel.
I wouldn't mind a ranged Divine Striker, but deuced if I can figure out what to call it.
Teh Smitolator! 'Cause he smites and immolates at the same time!
What does this even mean? A class that is just stupidly more powerful than everyone else by getting the best everything?
That doesn't sound like a very valid class option. Frankly, the Templar concept is covered by the Paladin rather completel.
I agree. The new ardent paladin build covers the "strikery" heavy armored divine templar well enough I think. I hope that whatever the new divine character is, it will be a necessary archetype, rather than just a class for the sake of filling space. Same goes for primal.
Personally, I'd see the Templar as in some ways the divine equivalent of the Barbarian in style (ie. charge in to the fight and bash some heads) except instead of relying on a bucketload of HP to survive in melee he or she will rely on the strength of his or her armor, backed perhaps by some divine favor that'll decrease enemy effectiveness in a way similar to the way that the Blackguard's aura did in 3.5 .
While I agree that the Ardent Paladin fills the "strikery paladin" quite well, I feel like there's still mechanical and conceptual space in there for a divine striker in heavy armor whose zealousness and faith terrorizes the enemy. So if Clerics are the Faith's outstretched hand, Paladins are it's shield and sword, Invokers are it's burning wrath, and Avengers are it's hidden dagger, then templars would be the Cudgel. They'd have a thematic tie to Avengers in that they might be the enforcers of the faith that are whispered about in fear that they might break down your door and drag you to the inquisition.
I'm not saying that it's definite-but I do think that it's at the very least a possible class, and one that wouldn't be a class that's "stupidly powerful".
Now that that mini-rant is over, does anyone else here think the Witch is a good candidate for the Primal class in the PHB3?
http://newbiedm.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/phb3.jpg
...it seems when you look at the minotaur that possible options for evil divine classes might be introduced. I don't know about you guys, but that definitely looks like a Blackguard to me.
Other than that, I have no clue.
That would seem to make more sense than simply adding more classes.
Now that that mini-rant is over, does anyone else here think the Witch is a good candidate for the Primal class in the PHB3?
I tend to think of a Witch as being arcane ... because a warlock is the term for a male witch.
I tend to think of a Witch as being arcane ... because a warlock is the term for a male witch.
That is very true-but consider the fact that the Warlock as used in D&D is a little bit different than "a male magic user". Indeed, with the exception of the Feylock the Warlock doesn't really fit the fantasy archetype of the witch. Now what fits the archetype of the witch you ask? Well here for me is a short list:
Some ritual goodness (along the lines of the other controllers) "Double double toil and trouble fire burn and cauldron bubble"
Curses that rather than cause extra damage (like the warlocks) control enemies through debuffs-perhaps penalties to hit or slides
Some minor mind control and illusions-mostly charm effects
A tiny bit of healing
Polymorph effects that target opponents- making their attacks less effective, slowing them down, etc. etc.
In essence, the witch would be a controller with a splash of leader, focusing on the elements bolded above.
hmm... Runic power source.
I don't know why, but I still find myself desiring the Witch to be a Shadow class. Maybe it's the Hexes...
Since Elemental is commonly believed to be about transmutation effects, perhaps the Witch will arrive there.
I just don't want to see a Primal or Arcane Witch; shake it up a bit![/indent]
Salla:
I tend to think of a Witch as being arcane ... because a warlock is the term for a male witch.
The term "Witch" refers to a practitioner of The Craft, regardless of gender.
The term "Warlock" refers to a member of a coven who breaks their oath of secrecy or otherwise betrays their circle. It is a modernized Old-English word which translates as "oath-breaker".
Salla:
The term "Witch" refers to a practitioner of The Craft, regardless of gender.
The term "Warlock" refers to a member of a coven who breaks their oath of secrecy or otherwise betrays their circle. It is a modernized Old-English word which translates as "oath-breaker".
Eh. Bewitched says otherwise.
As far as I'm concerned, we already have a witch ... it's a female Warlock.Salla: As far as I'm concerned, we already have a witch ... it's a female Warlock.
The Shadar-Kai have a 'Witch' that flavorwise resonates the Shadow power source, along with the Shadowfell plane and Necrotic damage. Maybe this is a 'Necromancer'? Its a Controller with Intelligence as key, no less. Maybe a 'Shadow Warlock' from FRPG?
"Most individuals with character classes who are ordained to the church's service (particularly clerics, paladins, templars, invokers, and other divine classes, but also including characters who ouse other power sources) are members of the Order of Templars."
Well, it's either a typo (transposing "templars" in place of "avengers" due to the typist anticipating "Order of Templars" later in the sentence) or it's a PHB3 hint.
Find: Eberron Campaign Setting, page 247.
"Most individuals with character classes who are ordained to the church's service (particularly clerics, paladins, templars, invokers, and other divine classes, but also including characters who ouse other power sources) are members of the Order of Templars."
Well, it's either a typo (transposing "templars" in place of "avengers" due to the typist anticipating "Order of Templars" later in the sentence) or it's a PHB3 hint.
Sounds like it works to me; Avengers, as they are described in the PHB2, are more of a secretive thing and not as much "ordained into service" by the main church. It even says that they might not be liked by the church itself.
So I can see them not including Avengers in favor of upcoming divine classes.
This templar reference was likely refering to the original class concept. However, that doesnt stop the original idea from becoming a new divine class still.
Actually, a Divine Power podcast says that the Avenger used to be called the Templar, until the Avenger became too 'assassiny".
This templar reference was likely refering to the original class concept. However, that doesnt stop the original idea from becoming a new divine class still.
True. But the name could still be used for a new class, of course
The reallife medieval world had extreme religious diversity (ranging from transcendent Jewish mystics to animistic Norse berserkers). So should D&D.
Relax the polytheistic monopoly on religion.
The reallife medieval world had extreme religious diversity (ranging from transcendent Jewish mystics to animistic Norse berserkers).
Yeah, because none of them had a cleric in their face blasting them with holy light. It's hard to argue against that.
So try this idea on for size: The Heretic.
These things exist, just not all inside the divine powersource.
Burningrose: Yeah, because none of them had a cleric in their face blasting them with holy light. It's hard to argue against that.
Actually ... its easy to argue against 'laser clerics'. Plato and Buddha already made such arguments over two millennia ago.
Platos argument was, whether gods exist or not, its impossible for humans to serve the gods. Because. If u help one god, u just end up making some rival god angry. Humans just cant make the gods happy. Its silly to try.
Buddhas argument was, the gods are irrelevant, whether they exist or not. If they exist at all, then they suffer frustration, just like humans do, thus lack enlightenment. The gods fail to bring enlightenment to humans.
These arguments arent, 'gods dont exist'. Theyr, 'gods dont matter'. If these positions proved pursuasive in reallife, how much more influencial they are in D&D where any idiot can become a god just by killing more and getting more experience points. D&D gods are not morally compelling in any way.
Buddha and Plato helped found rational-skeptical transcendent-mystical traditions (via Nirvana, the Platonic Ideal, etc.) that undermined servitude to ancestral gods and thus transcendent religions dominated medieval empires.
Actually ... its easy to argue against 'laser clerics'. Plato and Buddha already made such arguments over two millennia ago.
Platos argument was, whether gods exist or not, its impossible for humans to serve the gods. Because. If u help one god, u just end up making some rival god angry. Humans just cant make the gods happy. Its silly to try.
Buddhas argument was, the gods are irrelevant, whether they exist or not. If they exist at all, then they suffer frustration, just like humans do, thus lack enlightenment. The gods fail to bring enlightenment to humans.
These arguments arent, 'gods dont exist'. Theyr, 'gods dont matter'. If these positions proved pursuasive in reallife, how much more influencial they are in D&D where any idiot can become a god just by killing more and getting more experience points. D&D gods are not morally compelling in any way.
Buddha and Plato helped found rational-skeptical transcendent-mystical traditions (via Nirvana, the Platonic Ideal, etc.) that undermined servitude to ancestral gods and thus transcendent religions dominated medieval empires.
But. If they had been in DnD, saying Gods don't exist would get them owned, either by a paladin or a cleric or the god themselves. My point is just that there are no debates or arguments like that in a setting where the gods make it clear that they exist (With big glowy lazer clerics and paladins), and have followers, and like to be served. There aren't competing beliefs. Everyone knows all the gods exist, no on argues against that. A cleric of Corellon doesn't claim that Lolth is made up. That was my point. The pantheon is the same for everyone, it just matters who they serve.
Burning: Everyone knows all the gods exist, no on argues against that. The pantheon is the same for everyone, it just matters who they serve.
So what if these immortals exist? These gods arent *worthy* of humans sacrificing themselfves for them.
The gods are parasites. Radiant light doesnt come from these gods. It comes from the Astral Sea. Healing doesnt come from these gods. It comes from the Astral Sea. The gods are selfish, exploiting the Astral resource for themselves alone, and using it to bully sentient beings in other planes.
Buddha is right, in the D&D setting too. The gods lack enlightenment.
The gods arent worthy of worship.
Humans can channel divine radiant energy on their own. The gods are superfluous.
So what if these immortals exist? These gods arent *worthy* of humans sacrificing themselfves for them.
The gods are parasites. Radiant light doesnt come from these gods. It comes from the Astral Sea. Healing doesnt come from these gods. It comes from the Astral Sea. The gods are selfish, exploiting the Astral resource for themselves alone, and using it to bully sentient beings in other planes.
Buddha is right, in the D&D setting too. The gods lack enlightenment.
The gods arent worthy of worship.
Humans can channel divine radiant energy on their own. The gods are superfluous.
Hmmm...I smell an intriguing Divine character concept...
So what if these immortals exist? These gods arent *worthy* of humans sacrificing themselfves for them.
The gods are parasites. Radiant light doesnt come from these gods. It comes from the Astral Sea. Healing doesnt come from these gods. It comes from the Astral Sea. The gods are selfish, exploiting the Astral resource for themselves alone, and using it to bully sentient beings in other planes.
Buddha is right, in the D&D setting too. The gods lack enlightenment.
The gods arent worthy of worship.
Humans can channel divine radiant energy on their own. The gods are superfluous.
Okay, let's try to avoid Thread-hijacking here.
I suppose all three of these sources can represent various spiritual traditions.
Divine can handle the theistic/anthropomorphic/cosmological religious traditions - including gods, angels, and other personifications of cosmic phenomenon.
Primal can handle the animistic/shamanistic/nature-spirit religious traditions. This includes everything from praying for deer to be reborn after killing it to it, to asking for safety from the spirit of a river, to a forest god, to not offending forest spirits, even a starry sky god. Nature-spirits arent gods, so much as neighbors that humans need to coexist with.
Perhaps, Psionic can handle all the transcendent/mystical/consciousness/existentialist religious traditions. It focuses not on things we are conscious of, but rather the open-ended/infinity of consciousness itself. This includes the Jewish/Christian/Muslim monotheistic God beyond creation, Buddhist nirvana, Hindu 'neti-neti', and so on. This corresponds well with the Daoist-flavor religious traditions of the Psionic Monk, which is already official.
Nevertheless, I still want the Divine power source to be more flexible so D&D can accommodate the needs of specific character concepts. For example, the Monk already has a Paragon Path that fuses Psionic and Divine, the "Radiantfist". This path should focus on the transcendent/Buddhist aspects of Daoism for its flavor.
Altho Primal can accommodate most animistic traditions the Astral Sea should still have a few 'nature gods'. Likewise, altho Psionic can handle most mystical traditions, the Astral Sea should still have transcendent/altruistic 'boddhisatvas' - persons who already achieved enlightenment but who choose to remain finite to help others achieve enlightenment.
I notice that each plane has its antithesis.
The antithesis of Divine/Astral Sea is devils.
The antithesis of Primal/Natural World is ... undeads?
The antithesis of Elemental/Elemental Chaos is demons.
The antithesis of Arcane/Feywild is ... ?
The antithesis of Shadow/Shadowfell is ... ?
Above seem to be the 'cosmic' power sources. Below seem to be the 'personal' power sources.
The antithesis of Psionic/mind-soul-consciousness is ... Farrealm?
The antithesis of Martial/body is ... ?
As antitheses, are devils/undeads/demons/aberrations all interconnected?
I think it's likely we'll see some less good aligned options for Divine and even Primal characters, though not specifically aligned, many of the primal and divine classes still focus on being good natured, if the theme for PHB3 is fighting the far realm, then possibly some classes might be on their side?
Asside from that possibility
I'd say we could do we a different Primal Leader, Striker and Controller, certainly a ranged primal character would be useful. Similarly a ranged Divine Striker would be handy.
Conceptually the Druid is quite constrained and bound by wildshape, so an alternative would be good.
The Shaman's spirit mechanic is also confining so would be valuable to have.
A ranged Primal Striker would prove a good anthesis to the Barbarian but is probably less desireable than alternative Leader or Controller.
Divine could do with an alternative ranged striker and possibly defender/leader. I like the Templer idea, but Blackguard may be a better alternative? Someone who actively supresses people.
A ranged Divine striker could be more like the Warlock, with different Domains to work with, although you can play the Avenger ranged, it'd be good to have a ranged striker who specifically works to be at range.
For primal I would like to see a striker class that works primarily through shapeshifting, maybe have mechanics based around whether they are in their natural form, a beast form or a hybrid form.
On a separate note on Divine, Im sick of the polytheistic setting flavor. Im disappointed the new Divine Power book didnt provide optional flavors for the Divine power source that take a transcendent and mystical approach to the 'radiant' 'divine light', 'immortality', 'idealism', the Astral Sea, or so on.
The reallife medieval world had extreme religious diversity (ranging from transcendent Jewish mystics to animistic Norse berserkers). So should D&D.
Relax the polytheistic monopoly on religion.
D&D is not, and never was intended to, be remotely representative of anything relating to the real life medieval world.
RL History is utterly irrelevant to D&D.
I agree that a setting with a religion like that could be interesting.
My real issue is that I was really looking forward to seeing three new power sources, and they're only introducing one. That's a real letdown to me. It also diminishes the returns on Divine Power, and makes me NOT want to purchase that book because it doesn't contain all the Divine classes.
On that note: although the Swordmage made it into Arcane Power, the Artificer did not. If PH3's Primal classes also don't make the cut for Primal Power, there'd be enough to make Another Power book.
Maybe tie them together thematically somehow?
What more could you do with Divine and Primal?
You have a Defender, Leader, Controller and Striker of each, I'm hard pressed to think of any classes that you could offer up in either that wouldn't infringe on those that are already available.
This really bears repeating, because it's true. Not sure why they are spending more time on the Divine and Primal power sources, they've covered all the bases already. Two new power sources, one in each role per source, would be superior. I'm disappointed to discover that they are planning on rehashing old ground.
This really bears repeating, because it's true. Not sure why they are spending more time on the Divine and Primal power sources, they've covered all the bases already. Two new power sources, one in each role per source, would be superior. I'm disappointed to discover that they are planning on rehashing old ground.
Considering there are no bases, I don't understand how they could have them covered. There is no grid to fill, there is nothing preventing WotC from having more than one class per role in each power source. Heck, we even had more than one class in a role for one power source [b]in the first friggin' book[/b]. And then there is the Arcane power source, which has two strikers and two leaders, certainly more evidence of there not being any bases to cover.
I don't understand why people are getting their panties in a bunch about this. The classes were probably going to be in the Ki source anyway.
If they are the left over Ki Classes, we'll probably see the Shugenja (Divine or Primal) and Wu-Jen (Primal), Leader and Controller respectively.
Probably with different names, if they do so. Having looked up on them, they seem (at least one of them, I can't remember which is which) more like elemental than anything.
I don't know, I can see a primal bow-user, based around a sort of shinto theme, being either a controller or a striker. And for divine, we're still kind of lacking a crusader class.
There's still more they can do with Primal and Divine, I'm sure.
I don't know, I can see a primal bow-user, based around a sort of shinto theme, being either a controller or a striker.
Actually, in the latest Disciples of Vegeance, it mentions that shadowy assassins, cunning rogues and ruthless *hunters* join their ranks.
But a Primal archer, who uses the spirits to boost their accuracy and influence foes hit by their arrows... that might be interesting.
I think the Ardent Paladin in Divine Power covers the "Crusader" archetype.
But a Primal archer, who uses the spirits to boost their accuracy and influence foes hit by their arrows... that might be interesting.
Eh... the paladin is still a protector, not a crusader. Admittedly, the difference between a protecting paladin and an ardent paladin is very real, and I'd say it's something like this:
The protecting paladin shields the children and valiantly defends the church on it's doorstep when baddies come to burn it down.
The ardent paladin sees the baddies from far away when they come to burn the church, and charges them angrily to protect the church before they even get to it (Possibly leaving the church to be attacked from another side, but if not, the church is safer)
The paladin is still a protector, a defender, in more than just the mechanical workings. It comes down to this: The offensive paladins use offense as a good defense.
The crusader archtype is the one who goes out into the mountain and smashes evil heads together with divine fury, without any knowledge of an impending attack, just because it's what he does. He doesn't use offense as a defense. He just uses offense as offense!
But yeah, I'm really expecting a primal archer in PHB3. It's a wide-open archtype, would fill a lot of the older niches that rangers used to fill, and would be pretty cool. There are so many hammer/sword/axe users and magic users, but only half of a class that uses a ranged weapon? Pffft.
And -Meh, I'm not interested in more divine or primal classes and only remotely interested in Psionic classes.
I Will likely skip PHB3 at this point, wait 'n' see for #4 I guess.
I think something interesting to keep in mind, is applying what we DO know to what we don't about the PH3, in the form of the racial playtest's theyve given us. They've already shown us the revenant and Wilden, both of which might give us some clues. Esspecially the revenant, which leans heavily in favor of those who think that the divine classes may be something on the "fallen from faith" type or the worshipers of darker, less than friendly deities. ALSO, in the revenants playtest it mentions that it is good at playing the "assassin class". I don't know where to go from there because when I think assassin, I don't really think divine, psionic, or primal right off the bat. Either way, I hadn't seen any of that brought up yet so I though i'd put in my two cents.
The assassin is a shadow class that will be released as a DnD insider exclusive in (I think, maybe October) September. We've also got an image of the PHB3 cover, that shows us a few things:
- Minotaur will be a race.
- Githyanki will be a race (Maybe Githzerai; either way, it's the yellow kind, not the green kind)
- PHB3 has Primal, Divine, and Psionic.
- The minotaur is in full plate, so one of the classes uses full plate.
- The gith is probably a monk, as no magic/weapons can be seen and she's wearing cloth. But then, we already know that the monk is in there, so that's a moot point.
We also know that:
- Wilden will be in there.
- Psions will be in there.
From the wilden playtest and the Psion release. That's about the limit of factual knowledge on the subject, however.
I think something interesting to keep in mind, is applying what we DO know to what we don't about the PH3, in the form of the racial playtest's theyve given us. They've already shown us the revenant and Wilden, both of which might give us some clues. Esspecially the revenant, which leans heavily in favor of those who think that the divine classes may be something on the "fallen from faith" type or the worshipers of darker, less than friendly deities. ALSO, in the revenants playtest it mentions that it is good at playing the "assassin class". I don't know where to go from there because when I think assassin, I don't really think divine, psionic, or primal right off the bat. Either way, I hadn't seen any of that brought up yet so I though i'd put in my two cents.
.....The Revenant isn't a PHB3 race, it is a D&Di exclusive race. The assasin falls into the same category as well(D&Di exlusive). he assassin just isn't out yet.
On that note: although the Swordmage made it into Arcane Power, the Artificer did not. If PH3's Primal classes also don't make the cut for Primal Power, there'd be enough to make Another Power book.
Maybe tie them together thematically somehow?
Like what, Forgotten Power? :P
But the main focus is that Far Realms has always had stuff like warping, twisting and changing beings. Primal has a Theme of Transformation. Combine these together and we got a Primal class based around Mutations. Mutations have a Far Realm feel and source, but also fit the Transformation feel and also mutations are natural.
Considering there are no bases, I don't understand how they could have them covered. There is no grid to fill, there is nothing preventing WotC from having more than one class per role in each power source. Heck, we even had more than one class in a role for one power source in the first friggin' book. And then there is the Arcane power source, which has two strikers and two leaders, certainly more evidence of there not being any bases to cover.
Thing is, if we look at the classes which have done this so far:
Martial: Rogue, Ranger
Arcane: Sorcerer, Warlock
Did it really work out all that well? I love the flavor of the Warlock, but honestly it really feels like a class which doesn't know what it wants to do. The rogue knows what it wants to do, but is worse at it than the ranger is, by and large - really all it has is mobility.
I was really looking forward to seeing three all-new power sources so I could put them in my campaign, but it looks like we wont' see Shadow, Elemental, and Ki for ages now. :\
On that note: although the Swordmage made it into Arcane Power, the Artificer did not. If PH3's Primal classes also don't make the cut for Primal Power, there'd be enough to make Another Power book.
Maybe tie them together thematically somehow?
All the Power splats only contain what has been released up to that point. When AP came out the Artificer hadn't been released since the EPG was the month after. PHB3 doesn't come out until March '10, so whatever Primal classes are in it won't be in the PP book. Which makes sense... it would be odd to have expansions of classes that haven't been released yet. (yes I know with a DDI sub we may have seen one or a couple by then, but that's not something to build a book around)
I think what will be interesting to see is if future Power splats end up encompassing all classes of a power source or only some.
Thing is, if we look at the classes which have done this so far:
Martial: Rogue, Ranger
Arcane: Sorcerer, Warlock
Did it really work out all that well? I love the flavor of the Warlock, but honestly it really feels like a class which doesn't know what it wants to do. The rogue knows what it wants to do, but is worse at it than the ranger is, by and large - really all it has is mobility.
I was really looking forward to seeing three all-new power sources so I could put them in my campaign, but it looks like we wont' see Shadow, Elemental, and Ki for ages now. :\
Not sure what your point is,
Rogue and Ranger are dramatically different classes, not only do they opperate differently thanks to HQ and SA, but they have different themes and focuses along with powers. They're hugely different.
The Warlock and The Sorc are different again, the Warlock has a clear advantage with mobility and his curse and pact boon offers very different mechanics to the Sorc who has a stronger degree in blasting control but a lesser degree in mobility and picking on a target.
THere's still scope for adding classes in both Primal and Divine, especially if you consider the displaced Ki classes.
If PHB 3 was going to be 3 psionic, 3 ki and 2 ?s (probably Primal), then we'd only be looking at the two Ki classes which aren't Monk split into Psionic and Divine and then looking at the 2 Primal classes which was going to round off the Primal selection.
Whatever the composition of the original PHB 3, we're only looking at adapted Ki classes and some classes that would round out the selection of the remaining power sources.
Alternatives are good, A Primal Controller without Wildshape would be good, a Non 2h Primal Striker would be good, a non Spirit using Primal Leader would be good.
Divine may be likely to inheret a Ki class, which just means a different flavour of spiritulism is coming to the divine source.
In any case, best to wait and see before casting judgement.
* More heavy armour classes - i like light armour as much as the next person, but heavy armour is a bit underused at this point
* More ranged (ie bows) classes. I am hoping that either the divine or primal source will do that in PHB3....same thing as heavy arnour, just has not been covered extensively
* runic power. I think one of the classes, most likely divine, will encompass a runemaster type class, all about using powers that activate at key points or upon fulfilling conditions. Have done a little work on a class like this and it has turned out very cool.
inscribing weapons and armour etc
EDIT: Oh and i forgot to add, i also think that the Githzerai and Githyanki will both be in, but under the title Gith
The psionics look interesting too :P
* More ranged (ie bows) classes. I am hoping that either the divine or primal source will do that in PHB3....same thing as heavy arnour, just has not been covered extensively
I've got to agree on this. It would be nice. So far the only effective users of bows are rangers and bards (re: Arcane Power). Rogues have ranged-weapon powers, but these are limited to crossbows, slings, and throwable light-blades. Most everyone else is limited to using ranged basic attacks.
* runic power. I think one of the classes, most likely divine, will encompass a runemaster type class, all about using powers that activate at key points or upon fulfilling conditions. Have done a little work on a class like this and it has turned out very cool.
inscribing weapons and armour etc
Why is there this constant idea for Rune masters coming from, and why are Runes divine, surely they'd be Primal if anything?
EDIT: Oh and i forgot to add, i also think that the Githzerai and Githyanki will both be in, but under the title Gith
Pretty sure they're going to be seperate, they already are on the DDI
just a few of the things i would really like to see
* More heavy armour classes - i like light armour as much as the next person, but heavy armour is a bit underused at this point
* More ranged (ie bows) classes. I am hoping that either the divine or primal source will do that in PHB3....same thing as heavy arnour, just has not been covered extensively
* runic power. I think one of the classes, most likely divine, will encompass a runemaster type class, all about using powers that activate at key points or upon fulfilling conditions. Have done a little work on a class like this and it has turned out very cool.
inscribing weapons and armour etc
Well, There's a class on the cover of the PHB3 that uses Plate Armor, so you're in luck there. And it appears to use runes, since both it's weapon and armor are covered in the same type of runes, and it's eyes are glowing the same color.
I think it's a divine class, because when it comes to runes in fantasy settings, it almost always means either Divine or Arcane, and there won't be any arcane classes.
I'm also hoping for a bow user, but hopefully not Divine. There's just not an archetype for it. For Primal, however, there's certainly a place for a Shinto-type Nature magicky bow user, either a striker or a controller.
Why is there this constant idea for Rune masters coming from, and why are Runes divine, surely they'd be Primal if anything?
Why would they be primal? Most often than not, runes are arcane, and after that, they tend to be Divine. I have yet to see a single fantasy setting (including anywhere in DnD) that uses runes as Primal.
Anyway, when i was thinking runemaster stuff it was mostly with Nordic Priests who used runes for divination and talismans etc. RL dont mean crap in the end though so lets just hope they rock out!
Eh... the paladin is still a protector, not a crusader. Admittedly, the difference between a protecting paladin and an ardent paladin is very real, and I'd say it's something like this:
The protecting paladin shields the children and valiantly defends the church on it's doorstep when baddies come to burn it down.
The ardent paladin sees the baddies from far away when they come to burn the church, and charges them angrily to protect the church before they even get to it (Possibly leaving the church to be attacked from another side, but if not, the church is safer)
The paladin is still a protector, a defender, in more than just the mechanical workings. It comes down to this: The offensive paladins use offense as a good defense.
The crusader archtype is the one who goes out into the mountain and smashes evil heads together with divine fury, without any knowledge of an impending attack, just because it's what he does. He doesn't use offense as a defense. He just uses offense as offense!
You are describing a character's roleplayed motivations for actions, not the intrinsic paramaters of a class. Why could a paladin not be a righteous, angry crusader? Like the knights who butchered the heretical Cathars in southern France.
Or indeed why could he not be a narrow-minded, ruthless, greedy and treacherous Templar like Rainauld de Chatillon (an historical figure who started a war because he could not help pillaging Saracen caravans during a truce -- portrayed reasonably well in the movie "Kingdom of Heaven.")
But he could also be the hand-wringing upholder of the due process of the law and the tender, merciful benevolence of the local church.
(Or he could be an 133t WoW tank d00d, looking for phat 100tz.)
You are describing a character's roleplayed motivations for actions, not the intrinsic paramaters of a class. Why could a paladin not be a righteous, angry crusader? Like the knights who butchered the heretical Cathars in southern France.
Or indeed why could he not be a narrow-minded, ruthless, greedy and treacherous Templar like Rainauld de Chatillon (an historical figure who started a war because he could not help pillaging Saracen caravans during a truce -- portrayed reasonably well in the movie "Kingdom of Heaven.")
But he could also be the hand-wringing upholder of the due process of the law and the tender, merciful benevolence of the local church.
(Or he could be an 133t WoW tank d00d, looking for phat 100tz.)
So could a Cleric, or an invoker, or a druid, or a rogue, or a psion. Since particular alignments aren't required for any class anymore, and any class can worship any god, you don't have to restrict yourself to the fluff that's being set up. I'm talking about the Archetype that a class fulfills (And yes, you don't have to be that archetype. But then, that ruins the discussion of an archetype.).
And so, when talking about Class archetypes, the paladin is the protector. Not a crusader.
Psionic
Striker-Monk
Leader-?????
Defender-?????
Controller-Psion
Divine
Striker-?????
Leader-?????
Primal
Striker-?????
Leader-?????
What do you think, I think those are the roles and power sources of PHB3.
i am hoping for a primal witch class.
perhaps, the witch could have with a noticeable amount of natural poison powers (poisons that weaken, slow, stun, etc.) and a good use of primal-type reagents, elixirs, potions and alchemical items.
maybe the witch could be a leader class whose powers grant allies various primal transformations. this would be consistent with the theme of the primal source (druid, warden and barbarian each have its own version of this. okay, shaman really doesn't.)
perhaps, similar to the barbarian class, the transformations could be only partial at lower levels and complete transformations at higher levels. that would be neat. nonprimal classes would get a chance to experience having claws, vines, fangs, wings, etc. that would allow them to (i) augment an attack, (ii) immobilize an enemy, (iii) bite as a minor action, (iv) burrow, (v) fly, (vi) enjoy a close burst 1 zone of difficult terrain, etc.
as i think of a witch class, i can't help but think of hags, both in and out of d&d, but in a player-useful sort of way.