Some possibilities:
Monk:
Setting Sun: A monastic tradition for the grappling and throwing monk, inspired by the same concept from 3.5e's Tome of Battle (though the Centered Breath monk may have taken some of this role). The monk build for those who want to hurl enemies across the room.
Heaven's Hand: A more overtly mystical tradition with the ability to channel psionic force into energy blasts. The monk build for those who like Dragonball Z-style monks with the ability to shred foes with Hadouken blasts.
Psion:
Clairsentience: The seer with the ability to predict enemies' moves before they happen. This might be more of a Leader schtick, though, and if this build is added to the Psion, it might have a secondary Leader function.
Metacreativity: The shaper psion with the power to summon horrors from his subconscious dreams.
Ardent:
Some sort of ranged build: This seems to be the big hole missing in the Ardent according to what I've heard, though the ranged empathic character might be its own class rather than an Ardent build.
Battlemind:
Not sure what the battlemind needs, except for some more expansion to make the class feel more coherent. The battlemind's marking function might also be tweaked to address some of its flaws, but that might be more suited to future errata.
Anything else you can think of?
As eloquently said by another poster, the Ardent tries too hard to be a hybrid warlord and not hard enough to be a psionic leader. This should be changed, it it begins and ends with killing the melee weapon requirement with fire.
A requirement which, by the way, is completely unnecessary. If the Ardent is themed with having to use exterior means to access its powers, there is no logical reason why the thrill of a perfectly placed bow shot cannot achieve the same results as a supreme sword stroke. Moreover, the class's own powers contradict this; Violent Spark and Corona of Battle allow Ardents to project auras without ever using a melee weapon. These powers are perfect, and demand expansion, because you should be able to play such a character from level 1 to level 30, rather than finally overcoming the melee weapon crutch only in epic levels.
But most of all, the requirement can be removed without sacrificing Ardent flavor. How, I hear a hypothetical-you-who-is-totally-not-a-voice-in-my-head-being-used-as-a-rhetorical-device ask?
1) A new Mantle based off of Intelligence. Representing the application of logic and reasoning to the empathic charisma, this mantle would be the cultivated ardent, one who sacrifices combat prowess for true mastery over emotional manipulation. The Mantle of Clarity represents intuition and understanding and the Mantle of Elation represents unbridled emotional power, the Mantle of Serenity would represent temperence, rationality, and self-mastery, turning emotion itself into a pure weapon rather than relying upon the crutches of the world. In particular, it would be gifted with...
2) Synergy Triggers. Allow the Ardent at-will abilities that trigger off of other individual's actions to boost allies. Thematically, this would represent the Ardent harvesting emotions of one individual to transfer, amplify, or suppress them in others. Mechanically, it would be based around Interrupt Actions and the Battlemind's "take an action now, lose an action next turn" idea. Possibilities might include...
-When an ally hits, grant another nearby ally a basic attack. Augment to increase the attack's potency or allow multiple allies to strike.
-When an ally is hurt, immediately grant another ally the ability to shift closer to come to their aid. Boost the emotional urge to increase the distance or grant an attack at the end of the movement.
-When an ally misses, distract the enemy through a brief surge of overconfidence to grant combat advantage to other allies.
Etc. Abilities that trigger off of the tactics around the Ardent would allow them to direct the flow of battle by manipulating the emotional tide. Moreover, it would represent a more purified mastery of empathy; the cultivation of the ardent's true talent by ignoring martial practice.
Being At-Will, it would allow the Ardent to do his job all throughout the battle, rather than simply being a beatstick. He could lead from behind just as easily as he can now lead from the front. And with enough powers, you could have a truly unique character; a leader who doesn't make attack rolls. The process is already there, as several warlord powers involve letting people take actions instead, but WotC has never gone all the way and allowed a character to play the entire game without attacking. Due to the nature of psionic augments, this would be incredibly easy to do, and like the pacifist cleric's unprecedented complete lack of damage, would provide something never before seen in the game.
That is not to say that all Synergies can't attack. You could easily have abilities that inflict negative emotions; channeling the wave of pain from a struck enemy into his allies nearby, exploiting a foe's error to worm your way into his mind and cause him to continue failing, or amplifying the bloodlust of an enemy when he successfully harms an ally to send him into such a frenzy that he forgets friend and foe. Synergies could take the form of buffing powers as well as insidious attacks, both representing a cultivation of psionic talent within the Serene Ardent.
And it would combine easily with...
3) The Bubble Powers. Auras and bursts are the perfect realm of Ardent's emotional mastery, and powers like Corona of Battle need more support. There should be sufficient daily powers that, from level 1 to level 30, an Ardent can always choose at least one daily power, hopefully two, that they can project without the ridiculous "hit guy with a stick to release an aura" requirement. This will make an Ardent a perfect midline leader, close enough to combat to include his allies within his aura, but just far enough out to avoid danger. Things like...
-Inverting pain within an aura that causes backlash against any foe that harms an ally.
-Creating a Tower of Iron Will that shrugs off hindering effects, allowing saving throws for anyone nearby.
-Drawing in all pain and torment, transferring conditions from your allies in a burst to yourself.
-Creating a psychic scream that channels every wound you take into a burst of terror that sears your enemy's sanity.
Emotional powers need not be tied down to hitting things with a stick. Giving the Ardent more abilities like certain powers it can already perform would allow it to be a true empath without sacrificing its flavorful daily powers. And they can channel them through...
4) Ki Foci. The most martial of the implements, the Ki Focus is perfect for the Ardent. Mementos and memories are excellent ways of inciting emotion, and they form the perfect concept of a cruder form of implement, rather than a refined staff or orb, something that the Ardent may have simply picked up. From a vial containing the tears of martyrs to a nostalgic relic of better days, Ki Focus Objects are thematically perfect as an implement. Moreover, they would allow the two sides of the Ardent to merge perfectly, because a more melee inclined Ardent can use a Ki focus to boost the occasional aura or synergy, and the empathic backliner can have a single attack power or two boosted through his focus. And most of all, it would mean that the Ardent could have Ranged or Melee powers without needing a gear change, because Ki foci could handle both.
Taken together, these four elements would give the Ardent an additional option that its archetype should be able accomplish, and do so in a manner that merges easily with the current class rather than demanding a rework. The Serene Ardent would be a perfect weaver of tactical thinking, boosting his allies as they perform their normal maneuvers to establish a standard strategy, as well as have enough juggling of positioning, proper action allocation, and resource management. It would give the ardent a strategic boost (ever notice that the ardent is flavored at being a really good tactician, but it lacks the attribute that is declared by the warlord to be the key of military planning?) and expand it in a mechanical direction the flavor already demands.
At the moment, the Ardent's true potential is squandered by its melee weapon shackles. It's time to set it free.
For Battlemind: I think what need is a psychokinetic build. Additional options to Mind Spike and Blurred Step would be probably preferred, such as slowing anyone you move adjacent to with blurred step with a reality warping field, and more ways to extend the range of mind spike.
For the Ardent: Ranged attacks are probably a good place to start for the Ardent. Also more neat options with mantles (or at least those mantle feats), as I liked the different aura effects that the 3.5e divine mind had.
For the Monk: More weapon options, in fact I want to see a bunch of new superior weapons for things like Meteor Hammers and Tiger Hook Swords.
Psion: The Shaper, which they've sort of mentioned so far, but I really want to see the return of Astral Constructs.
Psion:
Clairsentience: The seer with the ability to predict enemies' moves before they happen. This might be more of a Leader schtick, though, and if this build is added to the Psion, it might have a secondary Leader function.
Yes, I too want a "Seer" Psion, but my one request about it is that they stop calling it "Clairsentience". That word doesn't mean what you think it means. Clairsentience is actually a very narrow concept that is completely inappropriate for that sort of extrasensory phenomenon. You might could get away with "Clairvoyance", as that's been turned into a more general term, but "Clairsentience" is exactly as inappropriate as "Clairaudience" or "Clairgustance" or whatever that smell one is that I always forget...
Metacreativity: The shaper psion with the power to summon horrors from his subconscious dreams.
I actually disagree with this one. I'd like for my Psions to do things that actually have real-world counterparts in psychic phenomenon, not "Psionic X, just like Arcane X". I cannot tell you how happy I was to see all of that crap left out of the Psion this time around, same with all of that elemental damage and quite a bit of what used to be psychometabolism. Those niche concepts should be left to Paragon Paths, not cluttering the bulk of the class itself. I like that with the 4E Psion I don't have to rummage through a bunch of arcane spells and concepts that they decided should have psionic counterparts for some ridiculous reason. Psions are not and should not be Wizards but just from a slightly different angle. Psionic =/= Arcane.
Moving on from the Psion, though, I really want something to make me like the Battlemind, because I want to like it, but I just don't care about it right now. A STR secondary build would be nice too.
The Ardent, on the other hand, I neither care about nor want to care about; it seems like a wasted class slot that could have been filled with numerous other much more interesting concepts, like a Wilder update (and don't give me that crap about the Ardent being the Wilder update, because that's bull).
I really like the Monk, so I don't have any particular requests, but I don't see how they could mess it up.
... Psion uses ectoplasm for minion ...
LAME! =/
... Psion uses ectoplasm for minion ...
LAME! =/
Yeah, I'm... actually with you on that one. Ectoplasm Shapers don't... jive with the 4th edition psion / psionics. Dream shapers could have worked, but that's already been used as a paragon path...
For the Monk: More weapon options, in fact I want to see a bunch of new superior weapons for things like Meteor Hammers and Tiger Hook Swords.
As much as I'd also like to see that, I'd love to see some feats to allow unarmed Monks to catch up with weapon using Monks.
Just some things that only function when both of your hands are empty so that I don't feel like I'm gimping myself for not using a spear/club/dagger/shuriken/anything new they introduce.
Way back in the first Monk Playtest article, they said they wanted to give options to allow Monks who wanted to stay unarmed a reason to do so. I know the Monk has changed a lot since then, but they seemed to have lost sight of that stated goal.
One small tidbit of what might be in Psionic Power was at twitter.com/criticalhits/statuses/833309...
Lol, they just keep making them worse.
One small tidbit of what might be in Psionic Power was at twitter.com/criticalhits/statuses/833309...
Hmm...so we're only getting one new build for each class? Darn, I was hoping for two, oh well.
If we are in fact only getting one per class, I'd certainly rather see the seer psion rather than the shaper one.
When they say the monk uses weapons, I'm really hoping they aren't going to start giving us [W] attacks, because if there's one thing I love about the monk is that its possible to use any kind of weapon and not be gimped on the damage die. What I am hoping is that means there are a lot more weapon specific feats for the monk, and if the build is centered around using weapons that they keep them implement powers just with weapon specific riders like the fighter.
I'm not really sure what I'd like to see for the battlemind.
As for the ardent, I'll echo the serene concept, and the fact that the new build is called empath hopefully means a more castery and less weapony aspect for the class. I'm rather hoping though that if the ardent gets the ability to become proficient in ki focuses its similar to what they did with the ranged warlord, where in this case you might give up proficiency in martial weapons to gain prof in ki focuses. But most of all, I just want there be a means for ardents, and maybe all the other psionic classes, to gain proficiency in ki focuses. Maybe a feat or something would do it.
But most of all, I just want there be a means for ardents, and maybe all the other psionic classes, to gain proficiency in ki focuses. Maybe a feat or something would do it.
Right there with you on this one. Honestly, I keep looking at ki foci and thinking that these should have been the implement for ALL psionic classes. Fortunately, the nature of them makes them extremely easy to graft onto the existing classes - as mentioned earlier in the thread, they let the melee-focused Ardent and Battlemind keep their weapon powers while giving them some ranged implement options as well.
I guess since there's martial fighting styles and divine domains, psionics might get something similiar.
One small tidbit of what might be in Psionic Power was at twitter.com/criticalhits/statuses/833309...
Hmm...so we're only getting one new build for each class? Darn, I was hoping for two, oh well.
If we are in fact only getting one per class, I'd certainly rather see the seer psion rather than the shaper one.
Seer is also probably the harder one to make, there hasn't really been a Diviner Wizard either. And a lot of the effective Clairsentience powers belonged to the Psychic Warrior back in 3.5e.
As for the ardent, I'll echo the serene concept, and the fact that the new build is called empath hopefully means a more castery and less weapony aspect for the class. I'm rather hoping though that if the ardent gets the ability to become proficient in ki focuses its similar to what they did with the ranged warlord, where in this case you might give up proficiency in martial weapons to gain prof in ki focuses. But most of all, I just want there be a means for ardents, and maybe all the other psionic classes, to gain proficiency in ki focuses. Maybe a feat or something would do it.
Maybe they might also have to trade away proficiency in heavy armour, but use Intelligence as a secondary stat.
And I'm thinking that even if the Ardent got ranged weapon powers, it wouldn't necessarily need to be a new build, as clearly all builds could benefit from that. Therefore saving the new build for a more castery one.
I wish for:-
A psion build that deals energy damage, flavoured either through revealing the energies hidden beneath the viel of reality or through halucinations. In any case, it should have an abundance of psionic+X damage, and ongoing damage should be sustained instead of defined through saves.
A psion might set you on fire, but it's not real fire, and only exists as long as he concentrates.
That, to me, is the difference between a psion and a wizard.
A telekenetic build for the Battlemind. I mean, how can we not have one? Seriously, nothing says Psionics like shaking your foes like ragdolls before crushing them into the size of pea.
A feat for all classes allowing the use of the Ki Focus implement.
A soulblade power-feat that allows you to conjure a weapon with which you're proficient, decided upon gaining the feat, with extra feat-powers granting accociated abilities.
Paragon Paths for all Psionic classes that expand upon that class's specific use of the soulblade feat. The battlemind, for instance, may gain the ability to conjure a shield in adition to a weapon.
More Sharmind art.
Edit----
And an at-will battlemind stance that grants a fly speed in exchange for a hefty penalty on to hit rolls vs non-adjacent targets.
A psion build that deals energy damage...
Please, not again... -_-
A psion build that deals energy damage...
Please, not again... -_-
Why not?
Energy Wall, Energy Blast, Energy Ball, those already have historical traction within the game. Thematically, they are quite decent, and the PHB 3 already has a power or two that deal energy damage like Burning Flux. The idea of pyrokinesis, and its cryo/bio/sono/etc brothers is firmly rooted in psychic concepts. Moreover, it would help with all the Push/Pull/Toss powers of telekinesis to have something to actually push them into, like a giant wall of fire made by vibrating molecules with your thoughts. And the Seeker already demonstrated that you can have an attack where you choose the damage type every time you use it. All in all, sounds like Energy powers are perfect for the job.
I would, however, like it if the Shaper had a different flavor than ectoplasm. A Forbidden-Planet style creature of pure force would be an awesome alternative, as would animating the surrounding material into a construct bound by pure will. I have no complaints with the shaper itself, but all that astral goo seeps into the clothing over time. Fortunately, I suppose, ectoplasm is just flavor.
And I like the alternative explanations of shaping rather than ectoplasm. Definitely feels more psionic to me - distilling dreams or animating nearby matter.
Metacreativity: The shaper psion with the power to summon horrors from his subconscious dreams.
Shaper - I would MUCH rather have this type of summon than Slimer from Ghostbusters!
Or you could summmon Quori type creatures like they had in 3.5 "Magic of Eberron" book
I really hate ecto powers for psionics
As for Seer build, I would like to see a focus on Immediate Interrupts and re-roll powers
Ardent - a build not so focused on melee weapons or powers that are "melee 1"(really hate the melee 1 powers) - maybe let you throw melee weapons to have them return to your hand
I would also like to see Psi-crystals return but they have to "feel" different than Arcane familiars
Telepath Psion - classic telepathic powers that deal with Mindlinks (one that last an entire encounter like the Paladin has), Mind reading, Erase memory, Psionic Link (lets you know when an ally is in trouble) & Sight Link (so you can see through an alliy's eyes or even an enemy's!)
Telekinetic Psion - LEVITATE!, telekinetic wall creation
Why not?
I already explained why earlier in this thread. I don't like for Psionics to do things that are really just Psionic versions of Arcane X. For the most part, energy damage just isn't very Psionic in theme. Again, I'm very glad that, so far, I don't have to rummage through a bunch of nonsensical crap powers to find ones that actually fit the concept of a psychic character and not just an Arcane character with power points.
Does that mean that I think that pyrokinesis and metacreativity and the like don't belong in the system? Not at all. It just means that I don't think they should clutter the main bulk of the class with that crap when it makes much more thematic sense to religate it to Paragon Paths and the like. There's no sense is bringing in the shape-shifting and ectoplasm nonsense that has nothing to do with real-world psychic phenomenon or classic psychic characters in the least, at least not until they've exhausted all of the concepts that are legitimately psionic in nature and do have their real-world counterparts and fictional character theme counterparts. I think that it's absolutely absurd that we're getting ectoplasmic minions before classic precognition and clairvoyance.
There is absolutely no reason at all that a concept that has a 30 year history with those things, longer if you go to pre-DnD sources, should no longer have them.
Well, usually when things were crappy in previous editions, they either remove them or try to change them. Again, I'm not saying that they should never come back, just they I think it's ridiculous that they're coming back before a precognition build, something that's actually part of the Psion's core theme and feel.
That's like asking for Bards to no longer have song abilities, or for Paladins to no longer have a healing touch.
I completely disagree. It's nothing like that. Removing the Arcane X summoning and energy powers from the Psion is just like removing Familiars from the Wizard or Evasion from the Rogue or Bonus Feats From the Fighter. They're nothing central to the concept, so it's not that big of a deal. Paragon Path should be more than sufficient for your Pyromancer and Cryomancer, oh, I'm sorry, Pyrokineticist and Cryokineticist...
I think that it's absolutely absurd that we're getting ectoplasmic minions before classic precognition and clairvoyance.
Or perhaps it is because precognition deserves a different class.
Think about it. Future sight could be Leader (buff people by directing them to strike where the enemy will be, dodge away from incoming attacks, etc), Defender (allow your ally to dodge an attack, kind of like a Shielding Swordmage) far more than a Controller.
And besides, how are pyrokinesis and animating objects not classic psychic tropes? Sure, ectoplasm might be an awkward term, but there is plenty of history behind the summoned idea.
After all, when you're psionic, your imaginary friend Mr. Bubbles is a little more real than everyone suspects...
And besides, how are pyrokinesis and animating objects not classic psychic tropes?
Animating objects isn't a psionic trope. That's an arcane trope. Moving objects is a psionic trope. That's hardly the same thing.
As for Pyrokinesis, it's certainly a common enough trope, but it's a very niche one too, it's not a trope that should take up a massive portion of the class's powers, and it's nothing that a Paragon Path shouldn't be able to cover just fine. If you really want more than that, then keep it to a minimum so that I don't have to rummage through it all to find powers that are actually psychic, because that's what I used to need to do back in 3.5, and it was a pain in the ass. What I'm getting at is that Pyrokinesis should not be getting as much attention as a part of the central Psionic theme as Telekinesis and Telepathy and Precognition should, not nearly as much attention.
And that goes quadruple for those ectoplasmic minions. At least Pyrokinesis is a common enough trope that it warrants some representation, but that astral construct crap should have been the first thing that they threw out of the Psion completely.
Bottom Line:
The Psion is not and should not be the "Psionic version of the Wizard." I play a Psion because I want to play a Psion, not because I want to play a Wizard but with Power Points.
There is absolutely no reason at all that a concept that has a 30 year history with those things, longer if you go to pre-DnD sources, should no longer have them.
Well, usually when things were crappy in previous editions, they either remove them or try to change them. Again, I'm not saying that they should never come back, just they I think it's ridiculous that they're coming back before a precognition build, something that's actually part of the Psion's core theme and feel.That's like asking for Bards to no longer have song abilities, or for Paladins to no longer have a healing touch.
I completely disagree. It's nothing like that. Removing the Arcane X summoning and energy powers from the Psion is just like removing Familiars from the Wizard or Evasion from the Rogue or Bonus Feats From the Fighter. They're nothing central to the concept, so it's not that big of a deal. Paragon Path should be more than sufficient for your Pyromancer and Cryomancer, oh, I'm sorry, Pyrokineticist and Cryokineticist...
Because of course, there's absolutely no history outside of DnD of psychic phenomena ever including pyrokinesis or cryokinesis. Oh wait ...
And that in no way, shape, or form makes them infringe on arcanists. It also wasn't a crappy idea in previous editions, or, you know, the entire history of pre-DnD psychic phenomena and theory that referenced the abilities, or ...
And yes, it is exactly like removing a core theme from teh class, since it's, you know, a core theme of the class since it's very inception.
I'm not saying Seers shouldn't get a build. But they are in no way more, or less, important than the energy build, and to claim otherwise is ludicrous.
Bottom Line:
The Psion is not and should not be the "Psionic version of the Wizard." I play a Psion because I want to play a Psion, not because I want to play a Wizard but with Power Points.
Well then, it's a good thing that energy powers are in no way exclusive to Wizards, or Arcanists as a whole. Druids, Invoker, Clerics, Monks, Barbarians, etc. etc. etc. ....
Because of course, there's absolutely no history outside of DnD of psychic phenomena ever including pyrokinesis or cryokinesis. Oh wait ...
There never was and continues not to be a very big emphasis on them, however, because they're such niche and obscure concepts when compares to the core of psychic phenomenon. That's why there shouldn't be as much emphasis on them and why they shouldn't clutter my power list.
I'm not saying Seers shouldn't get a build. But they are in no way more, or less, important than the energy build, and to claim otherwise is ludicrous.
Bull and ****. If you really think that cryokinesis isn't a ridiculously niche concept, then you know nothing of psychic phenomenon in fiction or as reported in the real world. Precognition is orders of magnitudes more central to the theme of psychic phenomenon than cryokinesis could ever dream of being. The two do not deserve equal representation.
As for the comments about Arcane X, that was more in reference to the astral constructs and ectoplasmic minions being an obvious port of summoning spells than it was towards energy powers, but the point still stands. The energy powers back in earlier may also have arisen from the parallelism so rampant back then when somebody decided to try to add some pyrokinetic themes to the powers. I don't need that snowball effect tainting my powers list yet again please.
There never was and continues not to be a very big emphasis on them, however, because they're such niche and obscure concepts when compares to the core of psychic phenomenon. That's why there shouldn't be as much emphasis on them and why they shouldn't clutter my power list.
Bull and ****. If you really think that cryokinesis isn't a ridiculously niche concept, then you know nothing of psychic phenomenon in fiction or as reported in the real world. Precognition is orders of magnitudes more central to the theme of psychic phenomenon than cryokinesis could ever dream of being. The two do not deserve equal representation.
Yeah ... I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that not only do I know more about psychic phenomena than you are trying to paint me as knowing, but that you blatantly know little about the kinesis discplines. I am well aware of how large precognition is, and yet I also know that the cryo/pyrokinesis stuff is way bigger than you seem to think. It's also grown in importance with the emergence of attempting to mesh science with psychic theory, whereas precognition has remained pretty much the same.
I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that WotC will eventually prove me right, either in PsiP2, or Dragon, because it's just too importnat a concept for them to ignore.
Yeah ... I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that not only do I know more about psychic phenomena than you are trying to paint me as knowing, but that you blatantly know little about the kinesis discplines.
I highly doubt it, especially if you're claiming that cryokinesis and astral constructs are as central to the themes of psychic phenomenon, especially real-world psychic phenomenon, as telepathy and precognition. If you're talking about purely fictional and literary instances, then you might have me, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.
I highly doubt it, especially if you're claiming that cryokinesis and astral constructs are as central to the themes of psychic phenomenon, especially real-world psychic phenomenon, as telepathy and precognition. If you're talking about purely fictional and literary instances, then you might have me, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.
I'm talking both. And since DnD is as much concerned with literary material as real world material, if not more so, well ....
And you can doubt it all you want. Doesn't make you right.
I'm talking both.
Then in that case, you're just plain wrong.
Here, try a simple experiment that anybody can do no matter how much they know about the matter. Just go to Wikipedia even and check out the pages about Telepathy and Precognition and Clairvoyance. Then, look up Pyrokinesis and Cryokinesis and compare the pages. Guess which ones have anything to do with paranormal phenomenon as described in the real world and which ones have to do with phenomenon described in fiction. Heck, you can just look at the length of the pages even.
Just to nail this point home, you should know that even researchers who actually believe in and supposedly study telepathy and precognition don't take cryokinesis seriously as anything other than a comicbook superhero power.
You can deny it all you want, but that doesn't mean you're right.
You on the other hand are trying to limit the background sources usable, which is not only is completley disingenuous, WotC has also shown repeatedly that they do not limit themselves to just one source when drawing on ideas.
I'm willing to bet the first is more prominent, which means more recognizable, which means what WotC is going to cater to first.
And that's completely independent of actual studies. For the sake of argument, let's say that you're right, and that in actual studies ESP is the more focused on phenomena. Whether it's a good thing or not, it's a fact that the majority of people in the world know more about psychics from tv, movies, and fiction novels than they do actual studies. And since WotC is a business, whose primary concern is figuring out what their customers will be willing to buy, they're going to want to cater to the more recognizable stuff, because that's what will sell.
Now admittedly, dealing with ectoplasmic spirits isn't the same as creating minions out of ectoplasm, but there's more than enough connection there.
I'm just going to interject, In MY study of the art of psionics, the main idea was using mind energy to make constructs. Constructs designed for different things. The basic thing was to make a ball of psi-energy. The next lesson was to make it hot. The more advanced stuff was shaping it and even using it to connect to other people. But it was all based around shaping psionic energy.
Seriously, where do you people get this stuff? O_o
I'm talking about psychic phenomenon here, not Dragon Ball Z.
Seriously, where do you people get this stuff? O_o
I'm talking about psychic phenomenon here, not Dragon Ball Z.
Yeah ... so are we. Hell, I've never even seen Dragonball Z.
And yeah, this was psychic phenomenon. To connect to another person, you would shape a mental tube to the other person, which you would use to read their thoughts and emotions, or supplant ideas in their heads. You would also use a construct as a barrier, that way you wouldn't be overloaded with emphatic energy and :goes on and on about other stuff:
Seriously, where do you people get this stuff? O_o
The problem is that PSIONICS includes more than just PSYCHICS. It is pretty much a blanket term for any magical effect created through sheer mind power. It's taking thought and turning it into reality, forcing the physical world to conform to ones own mental image.
The problem is that PSIONICS includes more than just PSYCHICS.
You're right, that is indeed a problem. I'll just leave it at that unless further provoked...
I'm talking about psychic phenomenon here
Which doesn't have jack to do with game design for the psionic classes, no more than if I decided to declare what the next Druid build should be based on botany and paleobiology (by the way? Platypus animal companion).
Look. We get it. You don't like astral constructs and pyrokinesis. That doesn't make any difference towards evaluating them as logical steps for the future of a controller class.
If you want to make a point against something, supply a logical reason (for example, X doesn't suit controllers because of Y, or this damage type gives them too much control over Z, etc). But trying to say that something you don't like is "too niche" is so incredibly subjective to the point of being bunk.
And it is rather foolish to say "I don't think they should limit themselves" and then turn around to anything you don't like and say "shove that into a PP, it isn't worth multiple powers". Because otherwise someone might just turn right around and say "Precognition? Too niche, throw together a Crystal Balls paragon path and be done with it, don't waste space". Which is equally foolish, of course.
Energy powers form a good expansion because they work with a current path (telekinesis fits the flavor, and its movement control powers could use something to throw people into) and offers the chance for further expansion into paragon paths, as well as fits the Firestarter image. Meanwhile, summons are a natural extent of the controller role and astral constructs have historical traction.
Now, a more positive discussion would be something like "I don't particularly like the ectoplasm flavor, so what would be a good alternative?" Or "how can we make summons unique, so they aren't simply a copy of the current methods of conjuring critters"? In that regard....
-Animating nearby objects into puppets would do nicely.
-Calling forth nightmares would be deliciously flavorful.
-Creating beings of sheer force, ala Forbidden Planet again, would be nice, but perhaps generic.
Likewise, that flavor could dictate some very interesting ideas for mechanics...
The summon could mold with terrain and change shape, so that one second it is a physical force, another moment it disperses into a localized storm of energy (ie difficult terrain or a damage field), representing the form collapsing and reforming, but still able to be damaged in either mode. This would help represent the pure telekinetic type, since its controller could turn it into various shapes, sizes, or modes, depending on his whims.
Or...
The summon could only be visible and material to a single target, everyone else treats it as insubstantial, invisible, and doesn't have line of sight to it, but the one person who percieves it can hurt and be hurt by it. This would be the literal nightmare variety, and would let the target fight his own fear using the normal game mechanics in a tactical battle.
Etc.
"I don't like it" is never a valid reason. "I don't like it because of X, so perhaps Y" is at least constructive, and therefore more helpful.
Look. We get it. You don't like astral constructs and pyrokinesis. That doesn't make any difference towards evaluating them as logical steps for the future of a controller class.
If you want to make a point against something, supply a logical reason (for example, X doesn't suit controllers because of Y, or this damage type gives them too much control over Z, etc). But trying to say that something you don't like is "too niche" is so incredibly subjective to the point of being bunk.
You're starting to bring this into the realm of mechanics, but my objection has nothing to do with mechanics. It has to do with thematics and flavor.
Here is my problem:
The concept of having psionic classes logically lends itself to letting me play characters that fit classical psychic themes. Back in 3.5, however, if I wanted to play such a character, I had to rummage through a ridiculous number of powers that weren't psychic at all in order to fulfill what should have been a very basic and intuitive theme. There simply weren't enough telekinesis powers, there simply weren't enough telepathy powers, there simply weren't enough precognition powers. If I wanted to play a character that combined all three, I could get away with it, but if I wanted to concentrate on one them, a lot of powers known slots would completely go to waste. This was a problem even with the Wilder, which had a much more limited number of powers known, to put it mildly.
When the 4E Psion fist came out, I was absolutely extatic that I could do this now. I could play a telekinetic character and neither need to take other sorts of powers nor need to pretend that I had fewer powers known than everybody else. The Psion has a wonderful start. If they want to bring in that comicbook superhero stuff later on, then fine, so long as I have the resources to legitimately ignore it without gimping my character and its power selection. However, it's a lot more logical for them to bring all of that stuff in when they have the core psychic themes out of the way, the things that I would go to a Psion to play and not the things where I would wonder whether I should play a Wizard or a Sorcerer or a Psion here.
"I don't like it" is never a valid reason. "I don't like it because of X, so perhaps Y" is at least constructive, and therefore more helpful.
It's not as simple as "I don't like it." It's "There are more iconic thematic concepts that should logically get filled first because those are what I want to play and am not likely to get as well done anywhere else". It's "I don't like it because there are more important things to get done, so perhaps we can deal with that later."
Don't get me wrong. 4E Psion >>>>>>>>>>>> 3.5 Psion. It's just not done yet.
It's "I don't like it because there are more important things to get done, so perhaps we can deal with that later."
In which case it would be better to bring up the idea that you DID want included, thus demonstrating its superiority over any other little ideas that might come up by nature of its awesomeness.
Case in point: the problem with precognition is that it is too good a concept.
Yes, you read that correctly, too good. Precognition is an awesome Big Theme, the kind you can build an entire class around, and they probably should. It would make a fantastic fifth class for the Psionic source, a defender or leader who uses the ability to see the future to prevent enemy attacks and boost allies. The power of future sight perfectly lends itself toward armor and attack bonuses, as well as a potential defender mechanic based around negating enemy attacks, thereby placing itself in the party support category rather than the offense.
It wouldn't be as good in a controller role, because precognition is typically not an active influencer; you gain information and act upon it, but merely seeing the future doesn't grant you direct control over it. Ergo, the psion is perhaps not the best suited class for such a theme (it has one or two powers which indicate future sight, but they are defensive utilities that get it out of trouble).
Therefore it seems best to use Precognition as a backbone for a future class, rather than cramming it into a controller scheme for which it is not suited. This does not mean in any way, shape, or form that the idea isn't any good, far from it. It should be used to its full potential, and it is something worth building a class around.
Why not?
I already explained why earlier in this thread. I don't like for Psionics to do things that are really just Psionic versions of Arcane X. For the most part, energy damage just isn't very Psionic in theme. Again, I'm very glad that, so far, I don't have to rummage through a bunch of nonsensical crap powers to find ones that actually fit the concept of a psychic character and not just an Arcane character with power points.
Does that mean that I think that pyrokinesis and metacreativity and the like don't belong in the system? Not at all. It just means that I don't think they should clutter the main bulk of the class with that crap when it makes much more thematic sense to religate it to Paragon Paths and the like. There's no sense is bringing in the shape-shifting and ectoplasm nonsense that has nothing to do with real-world psychic phenomenon or classic psychic characters in the least, at least not until they've exhausted all of the concepts that are legitimately psionic in nature and do have their real-world counterparts and fictional character theme counterparts. I think that it's absolutely absurd that we're getting ectoplasmic minions before classic precognition and clairvoyance.
+1
Dragoncat, I disagree completely, but I will accept and respect that line of reasoning legitimate enough for me not to press the issue further (again, unless otherwise provoked). However, I still think it odd that the next thing that they go with is astral constructs. Again, of everything that the older Psion could do, that's what they decided to pick out? I should think that teleportation would be next in line, and even that pyrokinesis everybody is so crazy about is actually a legitimate and common trope to a far greater extent than ectoplasmic minions are.
Maybe, though astral constructs were rather cool (at least the artwork and minis were), and for me and at least 1 or 2 of the friends I game with they are most definitely an iconic aspect of the psion class. Also while in 3.5 they were made of ectoplasm, in 4e they might be manifestations of pure force, which seems to me a natural extension on the concept of telekinesis.
There exist build options much more similar, in my opinion.
Sad but true. Sad but true.
Still, most of the really good Nomad stuff comes down to Ritual material. Although Astral Caravan would be really, really nifty.
Is there some sort of Dragoncat fanclub or mailing list I can join? Hahahaha
I know, right? I mean, him and me have had our share of issues over the animal race thing (and we did come to an agreement there), but that post was pure win.
Perhaps it is because, while the Shaper could represent its own build, it is easy to have the Telekinetic psion absorb the Nomad, taking mastery of space and extending it into mastery of dimensions.
Actually, I think it already did. I'd have to go back and look, but I'm pretty sure I saw some teleporting Psion powers that were Wis-linked.
I think there's room for Metacreativity - in the sense of "creating things out of nothingness, with your mind" - but I agree that it doesn't feel right, nor does it feel like a good idea.
If they were going to include "shaping", I think an acceptable revision of it would be along the lines of the "Dreamwalker" paragon path (PH3) - though, yeah, we've already got that paragon path, so...
I agree with Crimson that there are way more appropriate archetypes to be covered, one's that don't do in the wizard.
Doing it in the Wizard.
What does it mean? I don't know. But I don't care. Because it sounds awesome (and horrible).
Ectoplasm is dumb, I don't like it, it's exactly the kind of stuff that people say is wrong with Psionics; If they actually put ectoplasm into D&D, then all those people who say Psionics is too Sci-fi and doesn't belong in D&D are just going to end up being right all along.
I agree with Crimson that there are way more appropriate archetypes to be covered, one's that don't do in the wizard.
While I can't speak for your distaste, having briefly read up on ectoplasm I don't understand Crimson's distaste in it as it seems to be very much related to 'real world' psychic phenomenon (or at least the closely related field of paranormal activity).
While I can't speak for your distaste, having briefly read up on ectoplasm I don't understand Crimson's distaste in it as it seems to be very much related to 'real world' psychic phenomenon (or at least the closely related field of paranormal activity).
Perhaps it's just the name he objects to? I know a lot of people object to 'pseudo-science' terms being used for psionics, preferring a more (for want of a better term) 'mystical' feel. With the monk being a psionic class now, that actually makes a lot of sense.
That's why I prefer 'tulpacration' to 'metacreativity'.
Perhaps it's just the name he objects to? I know a lot of people object to 'pseudo-science' terms being used for psionics, preferring a more (for want of a better term) 'mystical' feel.
Maybe, but it seemed to me that his objections to the shaper as a build were deeper than just the terminology. Also it seems odd to me for anyone to denounce various builds for being unrelated to 'real world' psychic phenomenon while at the same time objecting to the REAL terminology used for describing those phenomenon.
Classes like the Monk have a mystical approach to psionics, but the Psion is a distinctly intellectual class. It seems at least mildly fitting for them to use equally intellectual sounding terminology when describing their own powers.
For the record, I don't object to the existance of extoplasm, just to the way that it's used. I don't mind it making its way into the flavor and maybe even the mechanics depending on how its done, but making a minion or astral construct out of the stuff seems exactly as silly to me as a Fighter making a minion out of the blood of his foes mid-combat... That would be insanely cool, but it's not really in theme for the Fighter.
True, but making constructs out of ectoplasm does seem in keeping with psychic phenomenon. It's described as a sort of psychic excretion, and among other things it is supposedly weaved into coverings by ghosts and other spirits in order to allow them to interact with the physical world. It's also described as a substance that can be used to make dreams physically manifest (that certainly sounds like an astral construct to me).
For the record, I don't object to the existance of extoplasm, just to the way that it's used. I don't mind it making its way into the flavor and maybe even the mechanics depending on how its done, but making a minion or astral construct out of the stuff seems exactly as silly to me as a Fighter making a minion out of the blood of his foes mid-combat... That would be insanely cool, but it's not really in theme for the Fighter.
Ok, I want that to be a power for the swordmage or a shadow defender (hexblade!) now. 'Cuz that's just hella awesome.
Anyway, I think there should be at least a handful of pyrokinetic powers. Crimson said he'd like to see it as only a paragon path. Too niche. Thing is, my pet peeve with paragon paths is to let them handle a niche concept and be stuck with only paragon path stuff to play that concept. Let's say, hypothetically, that they introduced a pyrokineticist paragon path for psions but no pyrokinetic powers outside of the path. If you wanted to play a pyrokineticst, then, you're stuck either having a lot of non-pyrokinetic powers that don't mesh with your concept, or else you'll be forced to be a hybrid wizard or something and filing the serial numbers off. Bleh. And I'd say that even if pyrokinesis isn't as common in studies or even in media, there's still an archetypal one or two. (Probably by Steven King). And I'd say that's enough reason to make the option playable. One or two really prominent examples is worth as much as many less prominent examples, in my book. I have a feeling some people will disagree with me there, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. (And please don't tempt me to get into an argument there. Thanks).
Oh, and out of curiosity, does anyone know what's the plan for the battlemind? I saw the spoiler that monks get weapon stuff, psions get shaper, and ardents get... well, I forget what, but it was given. And it gave hope for a more empathic, less psionic warlord ardent. But I didn't see anything for battlemind. I'm kind of hoping for precognition myself. And I'm really hoping they wind up deciding to handle the shaper as more dreams or telekinesis/possession than ectoplasm. But reflavoring is possible.
As for the seer, I think a lot of it's powers would probably go to the Ardent and Battlemind, except for those reality warping powers which wouldn't detract too much from the other Psion builds. After all if you have the ability to tell the future, well what do you do? If you can't alter reality, well your left with sharing your knowledge or hitting someone with a weapon in a certain way.
True, but making constructs out of ectoplasm does seem in keeping with psychic phenomenon. It's described as a sort of psychic excretion, and among other things it is supposedly weaved into coverings by ghosts and other spirits in order to allow them to interact with the physical world. It's also described as a substance that can be used to make dreams physically manifest (that certainly sounds like an astral construct to me).
My beef is mostly with how they go about it, so yeah terminology is a big part; why do we need to go into detail about metal manifestations, why do we need such a scientific sounding terms, does everything really have to be some kind of matter.
Take the Dreamwalker Paragon Path for example, it's very much to my liking; it doesn't use any special terms or explanations, it just says you manifest a dream form. It may not seem like that big of a deal, but I would much rather have a Dreamshaper than an Ectoplasmic Cerebrotist, for the sake of both the game and it's players.
Crimson said he'd like to see it as only a paragon path. Too niche. Thing is, my pet peeve with paragon paths is to let them handle a niche concept and be stuck with only paragon path stuff to play that concept.
This and then some.
I'm sick and tired of hearing people shoot down perfectly valid concept for new classes or new builds just because they are similar to an already existent paragon path. Paragon paths are great for enhancing things a class/build is already good at, or letting a class/build branch out into truely unusual abilities, but the fail miserably as a means of realizing a basic concept. Some concepts deserve to be playable from 1st level, paragon paths can't do that. Some concepts deserve to be the focus of all a character's powers, paragon paths can't do that either.
That said, I do agree with Crimson that that it wouldn't be appropriate to 'force' players that are just interested in a traditional psychic to have to swim through too many off-theme powers. As such I don't think that all the various energy-kineticists need their own unique powers, rather instead the could each share the same list of powers which can be variable in energy type. Much like the Wild Soul Sorcerer, whose powers vary in damage type and may even have different secondary effect based on which type they manifest as, but with the energy type being determined by an associated build feature at 1st level instead of randomly each time the spell is cast.
In that case, we might as well ditch the idea of individual pyro powers, and simply have a build feature that says:
"Pick a damage type from fire, cold, lightning or radiant. Any time you use a psion power that does force or psychic damage, it gains the damage type you've chosen in addition to it's normal damage."
Thinking about it, this might actually be the best way to do it in any case. It's got a ring to it.
Pretty good idea, but that would limit those powers to psions wíth the appropriate build.
In that case, we might as well ditch the idea of individual pyro powers, and simply have a build feature that says:
"Pick a damage type from fire, cold, lightning or radiant. Any time you use a psion power that does force or psychic damage, it gains the damage type you've chosen in addition to it's normal damage."
The point would be secondary effects that make the power feel like more than just a kinetic blast with an energy type pasted on. Take for example the Sorcerer power Chromatic Orb.
- When it deals RADIANT damage it also dazes the target.
- When it deal FIRE damage it also explodes, damaging adjacent enemies.
- When it deals POISON damage it also deal ongoing damage.
- When it deals LIGHTNING damage it also slides the target.
- When it deals COLD damage it also slows the target.
- When it deals PSYCHIC damage it also penalizes the target's AC.
As for such powers being limited to specific builds, that is already moderately the case with any powers that has a build rider. While nothing stops a PC from take off build powers, such choices are often sub-optimal at best. In the case of a series of energy blast powers, Psions without the proper build feater would just deal untyped damage with no rider effects (or possibly the powers could also tie to the current builds, dealing psychic damage when used by a telepath and force damage when used by a telekinetic).
Cryo/Pyro/Ecto... I don't want to see any of those 3 in the Psionic Power handbook... But then again, the whole "ripping reality apart" with Telekinesis, or using Telekinesis to manipulate the time continuum (both prevalent in the PHB3 book) is just as distasteful to me...
What I DO want to see...
More Telekinesis (or Psychokinesis), and it being a bit more on the Kinesis/Kinetic side of things. I mean, when you look at how powerful a comic-book character (for lack of a better analogy) can be with just Telekinesis (throwing tanks, mountains, etc...), you see there's no appreciable limit to options for a TK player.
Some has been well done, right until about the time you get past Paragon anyhows. (though the Teleport Utility Power still makes no sense to me.... I don't think anyone at WotC actually leans towards a phychic inclination, and they made it seem a LOT more like magic in some areas, then Psychic).
First off, I want a Telekinetic Paragon Path.
Action Point: Fly til end of next turn, or Free use of Force Push, or something.
Other Property: Sky Hook becomes an Encounter Power, or maybe an anti-mobility affect. Can not be knocked prone, pushed or pulled (kinetic resistance).
And some nice TKish powers.
Fist of the Titan (Utility 12) - Target slides up to altitude 1 and is immobilized, can not use ranged weapons. Save Ends. Special: Save Ends, drops target 10 feet for damage.
Psychic Pulse (Attack 11) - 1d8 + Intelligence Damage. Burst 2. All creatures in burst (including allies). Pushed Wisdom number of Squares. Augment 2: Also knocked prone Augment 4: Also Knocked Prone and Dazed until end of next turn.
**Note: I've not thought those powers out, just throwing things out there, they'd likely need heavy balancing.
And LOTS of Powers for both Telepath, Telekinetics AND whatever new 'build' they make. Though, while the Telepath powers seem pretty right on, for what little I've read (Sorry, just really interested in TK due to my play-style and internal character fantasies :P), the TK powers seem lacking. So many potential Utility powers available, and so many non-TKish powers to pick from for the TK. Or worse, the really thematic ones (Telekinetic Lift for example) are set to Daily instead of Encounter.
Anyhows, sounds a bit like a Witch-Session, sorry for that. In truth, I LOVE the new Psions, and am having a ton of fun playing my character (2nd level now). I just kinda wish to see more TK stuff is all. I've already decided that I'll have to go with the Unseen Servant Paragon Path (AKA: DreamWalker) to double my TK range... and just thematically alter it to a TK perspective (since the Time Paragon is so non-thematic for TK).
We need some PPs specificially focused on the core themes of the Psion, like the Thrallherd and some sort of TK adept.
As for telekinesis itself, some area effects would help his pushing and pulling quite a bit. Some might take the forms of energy walls and vortexes, but even pure telekinesis could manage it; create a storm of swirling energy that you can hurl people through, or a vortex of whirling matter that tears everything apart, or manifest the awesome Telekinetic Tornado to unleash havoc. Etc.
Telekinetic Tornado
Duuuuuuude that's my next City of Heroes character hahahaha.
The point would be secondary effects that make the power feel like more than just a kinetic blast with an energy type pasted on.
This is part of the reason I like the idea of not having secondary effects. This way, it'd always feel as though you're using psionic powers with a crunchy energy glaze, as opposed to standard energy powers. It'd also mean that dedicated pyros would still have access to the entire power library as opposed to only the powers associated with thier build.
The elemental power source on the other hand is the ideal place for variable damage powers, and I really hope that variable damage is a constant theme throughout the source.
This is part of the reason I like the idea of not having secondary effects. This way, it'd always feel as though you're using psionic powers with a crunchy energy glaze, as opposed to standard energy powers. It'd also mean that dedicated pyros would still have access to the entire power library as opposed to only the powers associated with thier build.
But a pyro's abilities shouldn't have the same effect as as a telepath's, notably the idea of pyrokinetic mind control is absurd. It's slightly more sensible if limited to telekinetic powers, but even then there would be flaws, as those powers typically focus on forced movement effects (which might work for a pyrokinetic, less so for a cryokinetic).
he elemental power source on the other hand is the ideal place for variable damage powers, and I really hope that variable damage is a constant theme throughout the source.
Yes variable damage could be a prime candidate for the elemental power source, however, it would be a different kind of variable damage. Sorcerer's already do random variable damage, elementalists would likely get to choose each turn, while the pyro/cryo/electro-kineticist would choose only one specific energy type for all their powers. Those powers would have varying effects based on energy type, but a typical build would only have access to one type of energy determined at character creation.
I tend to agree with the people who suggest it as a paragon path, that would be better than trying to do pyrotechnic powers for each level you gain a power at and trying to stay thematic. You can't really do Fireballs, Firewalls, etc as a Pyrokinetic. You're stuck with a limited number of things... "I ignite his clothes", "I ignite the air". It's so limited that the best answer is a Paragon Path, where you get 3 powers (a damaging encounter, a light-a-fire utility, a burn the atmosphere daily, add Fire to any attack power that doesn't have the Psionic keyword when you spend an action point, Restance to Fire equal to 5+Wisdom, and something else that is thematic)
Personally, I'd rather they not waste a paragon path for it, but can understand if they do. They really need a telekinetic and telepathic Paragon Path or 2 before another odd-theme path is added, in my humble opinion.
I tend to agree with the people who suggest it as a paragon path, that would be better than trying to do pyrotechnic powers for each level you gain a power at and trying to stay thematic. You can't really do Fireballs, Firewalls, etc as a Pyrokinetic. You're stuck with a limited number of things... "I ignite his clothes", "I ignite the air". It's so limited that the best answer is a Paragon Path, where you get 3 powers (a damaging encounter, a light-a-fire utility, a burn the atmosphere daily, add Fire to any attack power that doesn't have the Psionic keyword when you spend an action point, Restance to Fire equal to 5+Wisdom, and something else that is thematic)
Personally, I'd rather they not waste a paragon path for it, but can understand if they do. They really need a telekinetic and telepathic Paragon Path or 2 before another odd-theme path is added, in my humble opinion.
I agree.
No offense intended, but what sort of player wants to play a Psychic themed character focused on Pyrotechnics or Cryotechnics? I mean, if you want to play with fire or cold, as a theme anyhows, you've got Wizards. They even get Mage Hand.
Personally I'd tend to agree, as it mostly comes down to the aesthetic quality of having powers labeled as psionic instead of arcane. Beyond that however, the situation is also likely exasperated by the fact that the psion uses a different encounter power mechanic than the wizard, so I can also understand why significant number of folks might be interested psionic pyros and such.
I tend to agree with the people who suggest it as a paragon path, that would be better than trying to do pyrotechnic powers for each level you gain a power at and trying to stay thematic. You can't really do Fireballs, Firewalls, etc as a Pyrokinetic. You're stuck with a limited number of things... "I ignite his clothes", "I ignite the air". It's so limited that the best answer is a Paragon Path, where you get 3 powers (a damaging encounter, a light-a-fire utility, a burn the atmosphere daily, add Fire to any attack power that doesn't have the Psionic keyword when you spend an action point, Restance to Fire equal to 5+Wisdom, and something else that is thematic)
The problem is still that a paragon path alone fails to make the builds viable in heroic tier, which is inexcusable for those interested in the theme. Personally I think a full selection of powers is best so that such characters have an option at every level, though something akin to divine's domain feats and martial's combat style feats might be a viable alternative. The biggest problem with the feat approach is that it would need to be far more in depth so as to allow the energy-kinetic to modify at least one power per level which would be too complex for a single feat, but a chain of feats might be too harsh an opportunity cost.
I tend to agree with the people who suggest it as a paragon path, that would be better than trying to do pyrotechnic powers for each level you gain a power at and trying to stay thematic.
Actually, it would take less effort that you might think.
Take a simple list; Energy Ball/Blast/Burst/Wave/Wall/Ray/Missle. Using the same mechanic as the Seeker's Elemental Spirits power, you can choose the element manifested whenever you use the power (or, if that would be a bit too powerful for higher level techniques, you specify "when you choose this power, pick an element"). Choices include fire, cold, thunder, or electricity; the True TKers can choose thunder to represent resonating blasts, while the pyro/cryo/electrokinetics also have their fair share, all from a single power. And you can add a tiny rider effect based on element to make a Pyrokinetic different from a Telekinetic, yet the power itself saves space by having one "Psychic Wall of Thundering Force" be similar to another "Psychic Wall of Blazing Fire".
Tharag_Bocc, while there may be players out there that want to have a non-arcane elemental type character, I think they're pretty rare... I have a guy in my own group that, in pretty much any game he plays, plays as close to a Pyromancer as he can get. Trying to talk him into a Pyrokineticist, he was adamantly against it. He has his Fire breathing Dragonborn Warlord with every breath-feat he can get under his belt. I just don't think the Pyrokineticist is anything more than an idea being presented by people who see how it could fit, but wouldn't actually play it.
Dragoncat, that list is precisely why it wouldn't work. Pyrokinetics is the act of increasing the kinetic movement of molecules to the point of ignition... there wouldn't be any Balls, Blasts, Bursts, Waves, Walls, Rays or Missiles for a Pyrokineticist, those are Arcane trappings. Pyrokinetics would light your clothes on fire, or light the air in a room on fire (no projection)... Ok, so maybe a "wall", but not one you could manipulate as you can with Arcane power. That's it. 2 Powers pretty much fits right into a Paragon, not so much into a per-level, at least, not if you want to keep it thematic. However, considering some of the things Telekinesis can do in PHB3, I'm sure WotC wouldn't mind blasting, bursting, waving and raying with a Pyrokineticist. :P
Tharag_Bocc, while there may be players out there that want to have a non-arcane elemental type character, I think they're pretty rare...
Such players might not be common, but I think it's a gross underestimate to label them as rare, and what they lack in numbers they make up for in zeal. There are certainly enough pyrokinetics and other character with similar non-magical abilities to make the archetype viable. Die hards, Fans of cyrokinesis and Electrokinesis are likely much more rare, but that's why I suggested folding all the energy-kineticists under a single build, sharing a pool of powers, but with energy type set at character creation (with feat support for the occasional character that wants to dabble in more than one).
Dragoncat, that list is precisely why it wouldn't work. Pyrokinetics is the act of increasing the kinetic movement of molecules to the point of ignition... there wouldn't be any Balls, Blasts, Bursts, Waves, Walls, Rays or Missiles for a Pyrokineticist, those are Arcane trappings.
Pyro of Marvel comics would beg to disagree. His particular version of pyrokinesis allows him to manipulate the size and shape of fire creating walls, cages, and even animal-like minions. In fact, the one ability he does not typicaly have is the ability to actually start a fire in the first place, thus why he uses a chemical flamethrower to provide the raw 'material' needed to make use of his powers.
Pyrokinetics is the act of increasing the kinetic movement of molecules to the point of ignition... there wouldn't be any Balls, Blasts, Bursts, Waves, Walls, Rays or Missiles for a Pyrokineticist, those are Arcane trappings.
Quote the owl, orly?
A brief thought is all it takes to rend the surrounding space, igniting the air. The flame tries to burst outward, but you constrain it with sheer force of will, building the pressure to the brink. A brief nudge sends it soaring forth, and you release the constraints to loose a blazing inferno. ie: take the air, shake it up, hold it in (heat and pressure mix well
), toss it. That's a ball or a missle.Concentrating on the tiniest particle of reality, you shatter it into pieces, slinging its shards into the next mote, which detonates into the next, and the next, and the next. The chain reaction, bound to your will, cascades forward in roaring conflagration. Fission-fire wave, anyone?
No time for subtety. You grasp every single mote of matter in your reach, and rend and tear until it burns. Fire Burst.
Making the heat isn't the trick, getting it where you want, now that's hard. Igniting the air around your hand, you link your will to a point within your sight, and every single point between here and there; at your whim, the heat flows forth like a rushing river. Ye Olde Energy Ray.
Not many people appreciate good architecture. Take the giant pillar of fire. It's actually ignited air shaped to look like the Statue of Gorodon in the history museum. Does anyone notice? Nope, to them, it's just a big old flame. Plebeians. Walls can come in any configuration.
I don't think it's an underestimate at all, and I doubt even more that people interested in ElementalKinetics are Zealous about it... however, we can agree to disagree on that. I still think that as a Paragon path, you'll get a better theme, and less filler (which tends to break theme).
As for Pyro... he's a mutant, and he doesn't have Pyrokinetics, he Controls Fire. He doesn't hyper-move molecules, he just manipulates flames. The Human Torch would be a bit closer, since he can ignite things, but even his isn't "kinesis" (which requires using motion to create)
Pyrokinetics is the act of increasing the kinetic movement of molecules to the point of ignition... there wouldn't be any Balls, Blasts, Bursts, Waves, Walls, Rays or Missiles for a Pyrokineticist, those are Arcane trappings.
Quote the owl, orly?
A brief thought is all it takes to rend the surrounding space, igniting the air. The flame tries to burst outward, but you constrain it with sheer force of will, building the pressure to the brink. A brief nudge sends it soaring forth, and you release the constraints to loose a blazing inferno. ie: take the air, shake it up, hold it in (heat and pressure mix well ), toss it. That's a ball or a missle.
Concentrating on the tiniest particle of reality, you shatter it into pieces, slinging its shards into the next mote, which detonates into the next, and the next, and the next. The chain reaction, bound to your will, cascades forward in roaring conflagration. Fission-fire wave, anyone?
No time for subtety. You grasp every single mote of matter in your reach, and rend and tear until it burns. Fire Burst.
Making the heat isn't the trick, getting it where you want, now that's hard. Igniting the air around your hand, you link your will to a point within your sight, and every single point between here and there; at your whim, the heat flows forth like a rushing river. Ye Olde Energy Ray.
Not many people appreciate good architecture. Take the giant pillar of fire. It's actually ignited air shaped to look like the Statue of Gorodon in the history museum. Does anyone notice? Nope, to them, it's just a big old flame. Plebeians. Walls can come in any configuration.
Sounds arcane to me.... Great texts, but doesn't sound like Psionics.
As for Pyro... he's a mutant, and he doesn't have Pyrokinetics, he Controls Fire.
"Pyrokinesis, derived from the Greek words πυρ (pûr, meaning "fire, lightning") and κίνησις (kínesis, meaning "motion"), was the name, coined by horror novelist Stephen King for the ability to create or to control fire with the mind that he gave to the protagonist Charlie McGee in Firestarter."
Sounds arcane to me....
ANYTHING can sound Arcane, because it is the most generic, hodgepodge source. If you are trying to say "Psionics can't do intricate things", implying that controlling heat and pressure and the same time makes something Arcane.....then I disagree. Psionics can be just as intricate an art, capable of fine manipulation and delicate control. Ergo, it can not only generate something as simple as heat, but it can use it in ways that are far from crude.
I don't think it's an underestimate at all, and I doubt even more that people interested in ElementalKinetics are Zealous about it... however, we can agree to disagree on that.
Perhaps, though if the fans (and by extension anti-fans) weren't zealous about the subject I doubt it would come up so often, or manage to spark the kind of debates it does.
As for Pyro... he's a mutant, and he doesn't have Pyrokinetics, he Controls Fire. He doesn't hyper-move molecules, he just manipulates flames. The Human Torch would be a bit closer, since he can ignite things, but even his isn't "kinesis" (which requires using motion to create)
Being a mutant does not preclude being a pyrokinetic. Charles Xavier is a both a mutant and a telepath. Jean Grey is both a mutant and a telekinetic. As for the Human Torch, I could certainly see labeling his powers as psionic, even if they don't fit the standard definition, as his powers are mostly non-magical in origin. Likewise his sister's powers could be considered a variant on the concept of telekinesis. The subtle details of how a power manifests aren't nearly as important as the overt effects they produce.
Personally I think you're using an overly narrow definition of pyrokinesis, and one that is a little too sci-fi at that. Pyrokinesis isn't just the ability to excite molecules resulting in spontaneous combustion. It is any ability to create and/or control fire by will alone. Arbitrarily limiting it to a subcategory of telekinesis that functions at the molecular level is out of place in a fantasy world like D&D (where molecules might not even exist, or at least not as we understand them).
Tharaq:
I don't think it's an underestimate at all, and I doubt even more that people interested in ElementalKinetics are Zealous about it... however, we can agree to disagree on that. I still think that as a Paragon path, you'll get a better theme, and less filler (which tends to break theme).
You can think people won't be interested enough, but you'd be wrong.
As for Pyro... he's a mutant, and he doesn't have Pyrokinetics, he Controls Fire. He doesn't hyper-move molecules, he just manipulates flames. The Human Torch would be a bit closer, since he can ignite things, but even his isn't "kinesis" (which requires using motion to create)
And? Almost every single mutant whose ability isn't physical is potentially psychic. Magneto, Iceman, Pyro, Dazzler, and the numerous mind alterers are all potentially using a form of psychics.
The only new build announced for Psion is the Shaper, but Psionic Power will likely have a few more energy powers (possibly enough to have some option at each level, though likely not enough to support a mono-energy-kinetic build). Regardless of what we see come Psionic Power, I wouldn't be at all surprised if over the next year we see a Class Acts: Psion article or two supporting one or more type of energy-kineticist.
Whether any of this is a good thing is debatable, but initial indicators would seem to indicate that the fans will win out over the anti-fans.
People who want an elemental control, will be looking for the Elemental Power book, not the Psychic Power book. Yeah, Psychic theme can include certain elements, but definitely not as a focus. If your definition of Pyrokinetics is what the zealots want, they won't be calling it that. A such, a Paragon Path is already asking too much and won't be used by people who are searching for the theme (unless it's overpowered of course).
My view of Pyrokinetics may be narrow minded, but that's more likely due to it being ME that's the zealot. I KNOW what I want with a Pyrokinetic (or in my case, the Electrokinetic), I'm the guy who sounded like a baby boy opening a Christmas present on this board when I got my Psion book. (I_love_Psions) Us zealots are like that (and if an Electrokinetic is created as a Paragon Path, I'll likely be playing it, and if not, I'll likely be creating it for home use). ;)
People who want an elemental control, will be looking for the Elemental Power book, not the Psychic Power book.
Or, you know, not. Since no one knows what the Elemental Source actually is, or what the classes will be like, claiming that Elemental classes will definitely fill the needs of people who want a pyro/cryo/etc kineticist are premature at best, completely wrong at worst.
Don't rearrange what I say please. I made no claims as to what the Elemental Power book would have, only where the Elementalist type characters will be looking for it.
How is that any different? Until we know what the Elemental source will be, saying that that's where the Elemntalist type characters will be looking for their thing is wrong.
Arcane and Primal in particular. It's very plausible to just choose certain elements to focus on with things like the Sorcerer, Wizard, Swordmage, Warden, Shaman, and Druid.
Don't rearrange what I say please. I made no claims as to what the Elemental Power book would have, only where the Elementalist type characters will be looking for it.
How is that any different? Until we know what the Elemental source will be, saying that that's where the Elemntalist type characters will be looking for their thing is wrong.
Because that's where I'm looking to hopefully make my Aeromancer. Point being, people who want an Elemental style character will not be looking at Psionics in hopes of finding it. Elemental, yes. Arcane, yes. Primal, yes. Psionic, no. To assume that people who want to manipulate Fire in a manner like a comic-book character, will be looking for the Psi-Kinesis version of that element is just unlikely...
I didn't say what the Elemental Power books would have, just that, the Elemental Power book is where people will be looking forward to seeing their Pyromancer/Aeromancer/Hydromancer/Geomancer type characters.
Because that's where I'm looking to hopefully make my Aeromancer. Point being, people who want an Elemental style character will not be looking at Psionics in hopes of finding it. Elemental, yes. Arcane, yes. Primal, yes. Psionic, no. To assume that people who want to manipulate Fire in a manner like a comic-book character, will be looking for the Psi-Kinesis version of that element is just unlikely...
Sorry, but a Pyromancer (arcane/elemental) and a Pyrokineticist (psionic) are not the same thing. They might superficially resemble each other, but thematically they can be very different concepts (and because of Psionic Augmentaion and Power Points, they're also quite different mechanical as well).
When most people say they want Pyrokineticist build for the Psion, it is because they have already rejected the idea just using a wizard or some such, likely because they view Arcane as being an external power source, and even the sorcerer's seemingly innate abilities are often implied to be the result of supernatural heritage. Comparatively Psionics is an internal power source that comes purely from mastering ones own mind (though that concept has become a little muddied in 4e with the whole Far Realm connection aspect).
Point being, people who want an Elemental style character will not be looking at Psionics in hopes of finding it.
Really?
Because by that same token, I can say "People who want an enchantment/mind control character will not be looking at Psionics, they'll be playing a Feylock." Or "People who want a matter and motion manipulator will be using the Wizard, because he has Mage Hand, Telekinetic powers, and forced movement effects."
Why can't a core idea be repeated if it is done in new, unique, and creative ways?
Summoning as a wizard is very different from summoning as an invoker, which is also very different from summoning as a druid. Yet they all summon.
If a Psionic fire-wielder is different from an arcane fire-wielder who is different from a primal fire-wielder and a divine fire-wielder....that's perfectly okay. And it is easy to establish this difference through mechanical means. For example, let us say that Psionics had less control over fire than, say, a Wizard and their balls of fire Flaming spheres. We could represent this by making Pyrokinetic powers either quick flashes or long, concentrated efforts.
So we make, say, an Energy Retort power that allows a quick snap of the fingers to unleash small fireblasts (or ice or thunder, pick the element when you select the power) within a range, akin to the Ranger's Spitting Cobra Stance, as well as other quick-reaction powers that exemplify the sudden burst of heat from a moment's thought. And then we have a few sustained powers that grow as you concentrate, like a gathering storm (or inferno) that builds up every time you sustain it, but also lets you use a special attack power to lash out at anyone within it which reduces its area.
If you add a mechanical hook to make Pyrokinesis functionally different from Fire Magic, it makes the character truly unique, letting Psionics approach a core principle like heat and flame in its own special way.
Really?
Because by that same token, I can say "People who want an enchantment/mind control character will not be looking at Psionics, they'll be playing a Feylock."
I could be wrong, but I think you're twisting the meaning of what he's saying.
He says that people looking for a pyro____ character won't be looking in a Psionic book. I think all he means by that is this scenario:
Guy wants to play a pyromaniac (pyrokinetic, pyromancer, or whatever). He's standing in the FLGS, and on the shelf in front of him he sees books labeled as Elemental, Arcane, Psionic, Primal and Martial. Guy is probably not going to think, "Oh, I should grab this psionic book! That's where I'll find what I'm looking for."
Guy wants to play a pyromaniac (pyrokinetic, pyromancer, or whatever). He's standing in the FLGS, and on the shelf in front of him he sees books labeled as Elemental, Arcane, Psionic, Primal and Martial. Guy is probably not going to think, "Oh, I should grab this psionic book! That's where I'll find what I'm looking for."
Hmm, perhaps this is what he meant, true.
But that isn't a logical reason to preclude the placement of Energy-themed powers within Psionics. On the one hand, you have thematically appropriate, role applicable, mechanically balanced powers that can be implemented in unique ways that set them apart from other energy using controllers, and on the other you have......random guy doesn't expect them to be there? Most illogical.
For example, let us say that Psionics had less control over fire than, say, a Wizard
Funnily, I'd say the exact reverse of this. Throughout the arcane source we have a strong, annoyingly hard to refluff thread of artificiality running through both powers and mechanics. A wizard might be able to make a ball of fire, but only with specific set parameters defined when the spell is learned, and may have additional effects that have absolutely sod all to do with fire.
Even the Sorcerer suffers from this, even if it's more of a "Look what spell popped into my head this morning!" feel.
Psions on the other hand always feel like they're in control of thier abilities (aided in no small way by the power point mechanic), with thier individual powers more being tricks they've leart to do with thier innate power.
Guy wants to play a pyromaniac (pyrokinetic, pyromancer, or whatever). He's standing in the FLGS, and on the shelf in front of him he sees books labeled as Elemental, Arcane, Psionic, Primal and Martial. Guy is probably not going to think, "Oh, I should grab this psionic book! That's where I'll find what I'm looking for."
No, He's going to grab the either the arcane, psionic or elemental book depending whether he wants his power over fire to be learned, innate or lent respectively.
But a pyro's abilities shouldn't have the same effect as as a telepath's, notably the idea of pyrokinetic mind control is absurd.
Err, why? What's wrong with a Psion using his MindFire to burn away his victim's will?
It's slightly more sensible if limited to telekinetic powers, but even then there would be flaws, as those powers typically focus on forced movement effects (which might work for a pyrokinetic, less so for a cryokinetic).
Again, why? There's no reason for energy ability to be any better or worse at forced movement than any other, at least when we're talking about psionic abilities, and especially if the damage type is added to force instead of supplanting it.
Guy wants to play a pyromaniac (pyrokinetic, pyromancer, or whatever). He's standing in the FLGS, and on the shelf in front of him he sees books labeled as Elemental, Arcane, Psionic, Primal and Martial. Guy is probably not going to think, "Oh, I should grab this psionic book! That's where I'll find what I'm looking for."
Maybe, but while the guy who just wants to play a pyro-anything might not think to look at what psionics has to offer, the guy who specifically wants a pyroKINETIC isn't going to be interested in looking anywhere else.
The first guy is only interested in being a master of fire and doesn't actually care how he achieves that concept. He might not think to look at psionics, but he would likely not be opposed to using it if he learned that it had options to offer.
The second guy however has a much more specific image in mind. He wants to be a master of all things fire and he wants his character to achieve that through personal mental mastery. For him there are no alternatives, it's either psionics or nothing.
Catering to Guy #2 has no detrimental effects to Guy #1, and may in fact have a beneficial effect. By that metric alone there is no reason to not expand the psion with more energy based attack powers. The only possible reason not to is if we factor in Guy #3, who thinks psionic energy powers are dumb and that the mere existence of such will ruin the class forever. Though personal I think it's idiocy to cater to the whims of haters that are incapable of simply ignoring things they dislike, especially in multifaceted game like D&D (to do otherwise would likely have meant no psionics in the first place).
I'm not going to argue any more about who wants what where. I personally think that the people arguing for a Pyrokinetic have no interest in playing one, they just see what they believe to be a potential slot that could be filled. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I'm getting, especially with all that comic-book commenting, and arcane descriptions for Pyrokinetic effects.
I just want to clarify for anyone that reads, that I'm against the idea of ElemKinetics existing as a full Class Feature option, when it should, in my opinion, be at best, a Paragon Path.
There is so much non-kinesis Psion to focus on, that spreading the potential options for a Telekinesis further would de-theme them, in my opinion. We have Telepathy, and we have Telekinesis. Other Psychic paths tend to be Clairsentience (Projection of Senses; not sure the use in combat situations, but I'm sure WotC can rend-reality with a stare or something :P), Cognitive (Pre and Post, Divining and Item reading; good Leader potential, bonus dice for being pre-aware of a situation, the TimeBender touches on that), and lastly, Cloaking (I forget the latin-to-english term for that... but it's not invisibility).
Kinesis in any form (any ElemKinesis) is still Telekinesis (Remote Control), and should, thematically, be a Paragon of the Telekinetic. Class Features should focus otherwhere I think.
But a pyro's abilities shouldn't have the same effect as as a telepath's, notably the idea of pyrokinetic mind control is absurd.
Err, why? What's wrong with a Psion using his MindFire to burn away his victim's will?
Nothing is wrong with 'mindfire' as a metaphor, where the psion sets off a cascade of energy in the targets mind that feels like burning, but that's not REAL fire and wouldn't be expected to deal extra damage to something like an ice elemental. If it were anything more than that then the idea of LITERALLY lighting a target's brain on fire as a means of controls is odd at best. Mindfire might work for general psychic attacks, but it is a major stretch for powers that are also charms.
It's slightly more sensible if limited to telekinetic powers, but even then there would be flaws, as those powers typically focus on forced movement effects (which might work for a pyrokinetic, less so for a cryokinetic).
Again, why? There's no reason for energy ability to be any better or worse at forced movement than any other, at least when we're talking about psionic abilities, and especially if the damage type is added to force instead of supplanting it.
Forced movement and cold generally don't get along, as cold based powers tend to be more focused on restricting or hindering movement. Yes there are exceptions, but that doesn't mean that allowing a blanket conversion of all psionic powers with the force keyword to cold is even remotely a good idea. As for combining elements rather then replacing them, that to me some what misses the point, creating characters that feel more like a Telekinetic with a twist of cyrokinesis, rather than a true Cryokinetic.
I'm not going to argue any more about who wants what where. I personally think that the people arguing for a Pyrokinetic have no interest in playing one, they just see what they believe to be a potential slot that could be filled. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I'm getting, especially with all that comic-book commenting, and arcane descriptions for Pyrokinetic effects.
I'm not currently interested in playing a Pyrokinetic, but I am interested in having the options available should I ever become interested in the future.
As for the comic book examples, I don't think that reflects anything more than the fact that most of us are big geeks, who have a wide variety of interests, and a desire to be able recreate many of our favorite characters (regardless of genre).
Kinesis in any form (any ElemKinesis) is still Telekinesis (Remote Control), and should, thematically, be a Paragon of the Telekinetic. Class Features should focus otherwhere I think.
No more so than any form of magic spell is still wizardry. The wizard has enough powers to build pyromancers, cryomancers, electromancers, and even kinetimancers (or what ever you want to call a wizard that specializes on the force key word). None of those options dilute the ability to be a generalized wizard, so I fail to see how supporting players who want to play mono-energy specialized psions would be harmful to your idea that all such concepts are just subcategories of telekinesis.
Furthermore, an argument could be made that energy-kineticists are not merely a subcategory of telekinesis, and that the ability to move objects at a distance is very different than the ability to change an objects temperature or electrical charge.
Kinesis in any form (any ElemKinesis) is still Telekinesis (Remote Control), and should, thematically, be a Paragon of the Telekinetic. Class Features should focus otherwhere I think.
No more so than any form of magic spell is still wizardry. The wizard has enough powers to build pyromancers, cryomancers, electromancers, and even kinetimancers (or what ever you want to call a wizard that specializes on the force key word). None of those options dilute the ability to be a generalized wizard, so I fail to see how supporting players who want to play mono-energy specialized psions would be harmful to your idea that all such concepts are just subcategories of telekinesis.
Furthermore, an argument could be made that energy-kineticists are not merely a subcategory of telekinesis, and that the ability to move objects at a distance is very different than the ability to change an objects temperature or electrical charge.
I realize you don't understand, that's why I said I'm not going to continue arguing it. The fact you can compare a Psion to a Wizard, shows me that you don't understand what I perceive a Psychic as being. Wizards can make little puppies to fireballs with fire. A Pyrokinetic can not, unless, as has been done repeatedly on this thread, you basically ignore the accepted limitations of Pyrokineticism and treat it like Pyromancy.
I realize you don't understand, that's why I said I'm not going to continue arguing it. The fact you can compare a Psion to a Wizard, shows me that you don't understand what I perceive a Psychic as being. Wizards can make little puppies to fireballs with fire. A Pyrokinetic can not, unless, as has been done repeatedly on this thread, you basically ignore the accepted limitations of Pyrokineticism and treat it like Pyromancy.
Not only on this thread, but pretty much throughout a large portion of popular fiction. The differences between a wizard and a psion are mostly a matter of background (where/how they acquired their powers), and the the subtleties of how they activate their power (a wizards gestures and chants, while a psion just thinks real hard), but when it comes down to the overt physical manifestation of those powers the two concepts are pretty much the same (whether by pyromancy or pyrokinesis the end result is still extra crispy).
Wizards tend to be able to have great ability to manipulate the elements (such as sculpting fire into semi-sentient constructs), but that's mostly a matter of setting. In a setting that presents magic as merely being sufficiently advanced science, wizardry tends to be more limited in scope, or at least technobabble is provided to try and handwave the more amazing applications. Thus the main reason that most fictional pyrokineticists have more limited powers is that they generally inhabit settings that try to imitate the real world. In a purely fantasy setting (like D&D) there is no reason to arbitrarily limit the application of psionics.
Not only on this thread, but pretty much throughout a large portion of popular fiction.
What books? And I'm talking "pyrokineticist", like Firestarter, not just people that do fire control... Pyrokinetics are in such a few number of books (most of which I believe I've read since I have a thing for any psi-kinetics), so shouldn't be hard to show one where they're more than:
the main reason that most fictional pyrokineticists have more limited powers is that they generally inhabit settings that try to imitate the real world.
Exactly... And that differentiates those of us who would play a Pyrokinetic from those that would play a Pyromancer. Why people like me are a bit... perturbed, that our TK has the potential to "rip apart reality with your mind". Even WotC started making us seem more like Arcane than Psionic. Those who look for the Pyrokinetic are not looking for just different mechanics. We're looking for a slighter theme. A more believable one.
But again, we're back to arguing what is what where. None of what's being said explains why a Pyrokinetic should be a Feature (and thus specific powers for every level) vs a Paragon Path, or a Feat (add fire to any Force or undefined damage). Those options make sense for the type of person who, for thematic reasons, wishes to play a Pyrokinetic instead of a Pyromancer in Pyrokinetic clothing.
Not only on this thread, but pretty much throughout a large portion of popular fiction.
What books? And I'm talking "pyrokineticist", like Firestarter, not just people that do fire control... Pyrokinetics are in such a few number of books (most of which I believe I've read since I have a thing for any psi-kinetics), so shouldn't be hard to show one where they're more than
That's kind of a ridiculus request. Just because a story never use the word pyrokinetic or any other psionic terminolgy does not mean it is not an example of psionics. Most metaphysical abilities, unless overtly called magic (and sometimes even then), when presented in a sci-fi or semi-real setting are are exampls psionics. That's why there has always been a group of very vocal haters that denounce the mere concept of psionics in D&D, proclaiming it out of place in a fanatasy setting.
the main reason that most fictional pyrokineticists have more limited powers is that they generally inhabit settings that try to imitate the real world.
Exactly... And that differentiates those of us who would play a Pyrokinetic from those that would play a Pyromancer.
I like how you completely ignore that I go onto say that such limitations are needlessly arbitrary when psionics is presented in a fantasy setting. Just because psionics is typically limited by being presented in a setting that is pretending to be realistic does not mean that those limitations are defining qualities of the basic concept of psionics.
If what you want is an ordinary person with only a few moderate psionic abilities, then play a martial class and take a few multiclass feats. The pure psionic classes are for folks that want truly extraordinary abilities.
It is the 4E Power Point system mechanics that I DO like Psionics in 4E. I will be very disappointed if they remove it. I would rather have more At-Wills then Encounter powers.
Follow his link and remember what day it is...
Hehe I have been so brain fried from work today I didn't even think about it....that was a relief
1) There are Pyrokinetic Powers in the Psion power list already. Burning Flux comes to mind immediately, and is, thematically, what I'd expect from a Pyrokinetic.
2) You want a class with complete control over fire, without the somantic and verbal components. I get that, and if the Elemental Power books don't provide that, I'll be shocked to hell (Otherwise, it would be Arcane Elemental Power). Otherwise, why even make a book for Elemental Power (and imagine the discussion levels if they don't....)?
3) In a fantasy setting, such as D&D (especially in novels), that fire control is always done by wizardry, not the much more modern, "realistic" Pyrokinetics.
I truly appreciate how hard you guys are fighting for something you don't even care to play, but it doesn't fit, not even as a Paragon Path, in my opinion. That's not going to change. You guys keep describing magical effects and comic book powers that just don't fit psychic theme. I'm pretty sure you're going to find everything you want in the Elemental Power book, and most importantly:
trying to create a branch of psychic powers for the game that can/will exist elsewhere as well, before the more accepted branches (such as the sentience and congnition branches), diminishes even more options for players than you're creating, since undoubtedly, what you're trying to create WILL be created in the Elemental Power series anyhows, and the more accepted branches don't have alternative locations to exist at.
2) You want a class with complete control over fire, without the somantic and verbal components.
No ... we want a build for an already existing class. Two different things there. And a build is more than a Paragon Path and Epic Destiny.
I get that, and if the Elemental Power books don't provide that, I'll be shocked to hell (Otherwise, it would be Arcane Elemental Power). Otherwise, why even make a book for Elemental Power (and imagine the discussion levels if they don't....)?
Oh, I don't know, maybe because not all of us believe the Elemental Source is what you think it is? Elemental means a lot more than Air/Earth/Fire/Water/Heart/Whatever. It's also atoms, molecules, building blocks, and other things.
trying to create a branch of psychic powers for the game that can/will exist elsewhere as well, before the more accepted branches (such as the sentience and congnition branches), diminishes even more options for players than you're creating,
Wrong. It does not diminish in any way, shape, or form.
since undoubtedly, what you're trying to create WILL be created in the Elemental Power series anyhows,
You don't know that. You keep acting like it's an inevitable truth, but it's not. For all any of us know, there won't be a single Elemental class that uses "elemental energy" like fire or cold.
and the more accepted branches don't have alternative locations to exist at.
Complete and utter crap. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's somehow less accepted. Things that exist in popular fiction tend to be more accepted as "real" than things people have done actual research on, so even if it were true that there has been less research into pyrokinesis than precognition, it's still a well-known and accepted part of psychic abilities thanks to popular fiction, and people will expect to see it it. And WotC, being a business, will do it because they know it will make them money.
And, for the record, of all the people in this discussion, I'm the one who mosts likes the idea of a Pyrokinetic (or in my case, Electrokinetic) since I already stated I'm making my own Paragon Path, just for that, and gonna see if my GM will let me play it. I'm not against Pyrokinetics, or any elemental kinetics, what I'm against is it being a focal point (of which a class only gets 3 or 4 of), when it already falls under an existing focal point/class feature, and when there's better, more thematic, more fantasy-thematic focal points to work around.
And while I may not know what will be in Elemental Power, this is a forum to discuss what we as players believe should be in books, and I believe Elemental Powers should be in the Elemental Power book. Stating as much is in line with the forum. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone in this discussion gets an actual say in the matter, but hopefully when the people who do, read this thread, they'll agree that Elemental Classes fit better in the Elemental Book, than the Psionic book, and agree that most players wanting an Aeromancer or Geomancer will look in that book for it.
We need our priorities straight, that's all.
Pyrokinetics is not at the top of the list. It might be an eventually build. But it's not desireable by a large enough margine of players to be the build in PP1.
Nothing is wrong with 'mindfire' as a metaphor, where the psion sets off a cascade of energy in the targets mind that feels like burning, but that's not REAL fire and wouldn't be expected to deal extra damage to something like an ice elemental.
...
Forced movement and cold generally don't get along, as cold based powers tend to be more focused on restricting or hindering movement.
This was what I was getting at in my first post. Imo, pyrokinetics don't manipulate real fire, rather psychic fire, or ideal fire, capable of burning things that can't be burned. If we accept this, then the idea of a kinetic launching a bolt of fire into someone which allows them to control thier victim's actions isn't that odd. It also exemplefies the difference between a psionic pyro and one from another source.
With cold it's similar, and with the amount of control psionics grants over cold then cold-based movement isn't really odd either, and there are enough powers without pushes or pulls that this rarely be an issue in any case.
I'm not against Pyrokinetics, or any elemental kinetics, what I'm against is it being a focal point (of which a class only gets 3 or 4 of), when it already falls under an existing focal point/class feature
That's the thing. It Doesn't. Not only that, but whenever a character is defined as a kinetic it's always a character defining trait, and not a trait achieved later in the character's career. As such, it needs to be achievable at first level, and if it isn't a class feature you have to answer the question as to why your pyro can use telekinesis or telepathy.
Neither you, nor I, nor anyone in this discussion gets an actual say in the matter, but hopefully when the people who do, read this thread, they'll agree that Elemental Classes fit better in the Elemental Book, than the Psionic book, and agree that most players wanting an Aeromancer or Geomancer will look in that book for it.
The point here is that the Elemental power source might have nothing to with X-omancy. For example, it might be about binding or making deals with elementals, in which case the Mancers wouldn't fit at all.
And for the record, I'd love to play a Pyro, not that I'll be getting the chance any time soon.
trying to create a branch of psychic powers for the game that can/will exist elsewhere as well, before the more accepted branches (such as the sentience and congnition branches), diminishes even more options for players than you're creating, since undoubtedly, what you're trying to create WILL be created in the Elemental Power series anyhows, and the more accepted branches don't have alternative locations to exist at.
You keep repeating that, if we get Energy-based powers, something will lose out.
Two things.
1) Energy based abilities don't require a new build. We already have things like Burning Flux. Add a single Energy power into the mix per tier or two, stealing from the 3.5 psionic powers list of abilities, and you have a complete Pyrokinetic, as well as a Cryokinetic, Electrokinetic, and Sonokinetic. It doesn't require new class features or special build abilities, it just takes a single power per level, which gives the entire class more flexibility.
2) Sentience and Cognition aren't good controller abilities. Think about it. Seeing the future provides information. It can help you avoid attacks. It can help you aim better. It can help you shield yourself or anticipate enemy movement. What it DOESN'T do is directly control the flow of battle. It is Leader or Defender material.
The Oracle should probably be its own class, the fifth Psionic. What it should NOT be is crammed into the Psion, who's role in the game has nothing to do with precognition's passive boosts.
Ergo, if you added Energy powers...you don't lose anything. Pure telekinetics already have plenty of love, and they will get even more. Meanwhile, all it takes to make a pyrokinetic is a handful of flavored powers. Which, in turn, will feed directly into the two current builds; telepaths can interpret a fire based power as convincing the foe that they are aflame, and telekinetics can cite their abilities as just another way of using motion, particularly friction.
I just hope if they do elements into kineticism, it's flavor, not focus. But, again, I wouldn't really object either way, I just wouldn't use those powers. Again, as long as the rest of the Psychic fields make it into play in their own Class.
Might be interesting to also keep the Telekinetic aspect in the Oracle class... One of the best uses of Telekinesis is to counter anti-movement, which we already do as controllers with powers like Free Movement, but which would be interesting in a Leadership role to just completely negate effects for a turn (not an auto-save, but a 1-round reprieve basically).
Anyhows, I'll drop it. You're right, the Divining/Cognitive don't really belong in the Controller role any more than Flaming Puppies and Fireballs belong in the Psion role. But I think useful Pyrokinetics can be done without arcane level theme....
Heating up of weapons/armours, Immolation, temperature mods, and of course, thermal blasts by super-heating an area instead of an item. I just really don't want to see conjurations, summons, walls, etc (well, walls might be doable) which I don't see as belonging to the Pyrokineticist.
Nothing is wrong with 'mindfire' as a metaphor, where the psion sets off a cascade of energy in the targets mind that feels like burning, but that's not REAL fire and wouldn't be expected to deal extra damage to something like an ice elemental.
This was what I was getting at in my first post. Imo, pyrokinetics don't manipulate real fire, rather psychic fire, or ideal fire, capable of burning things that can't be burned.
That's a rather unusual idea of what it means to be a pyrokinetic, and not of a variety that most folks would likely recognize, or even acknowledge. In most popular fiction a pyrokinetic does indeed create and/or control REAL fire. What you're describing is more of a telepath that uses the concept of fire as a sort of astral avatar.
I think all the people wanting new Psionic classes like Soulknife, Empath, Wilder and Oracle really shows that WotC dropped the ball with Psionics; because all these concepts could have easily been condensed into 4 classes if they were just designed right in the first place.
Battlemind could easily been a Soulknife or a Oracle type, as well as speedy Ki warrior type; with something as simple as giving them some arrangement of, lets say Dex, Wis and Int, and then keeping them in light armor. And I'm not into the whole altering their body with psionics, that's not a fantasy archetype IMO, I could see it with Arcane but not Psionics, so excuse me if I don't give it much consideration. There you've got some anime samurai and some Jedi and what not, very Swordsage like, it's expansive and at the same time it's a unified concept.
Ardent should've been open to ranged implement powers to encompass the Wilder/Empath, and then we would have a much more stronger concept for the class.
I feel like they were too focused on bringing back the 3.5 classes, and we ended up getting the baby along with the bathwater so to speak.
The Oracle being merged with the Ardent might work, if it was based off of interpreting thoughts of opponents, but isn't a perfect match with the seer archetype. Add to that the fact that the Ardent brings way too much baggage with its current melee-only shackles, and it just doesn't mesh correctly.
And I'd rather that hypercognition and prescience stay as far away from the enormous pile of fail that is the Battlemind as possible. Disregarding the "My intestinal fortitude lets me see the future" absurdity, the BM's complete lack of flavor means cramming something thematic on top of it would dilute a great concept, like placing a diamond on a rotting carcass.
And I do agree that the ball kind of got dropped. Three out of four Power Source of the Mind classes are melee characters. Only one of the classes uses Intelligence (but all of them use wisdom, funny how obsessed WotC seems to be with that stat). Two of them are PsionicX, a Warlord with Power Points and a Every-Defender-Mechanic-Crammed-Into-One-Class With Power Points. The only ones that work are the legacies; the monk and psion are just fine, but the newly created ones smack of "Yo dawg, I heard you like power points, so I added some power points to your defender and leader". Power points alone aren't enough to make a good class, and I think it blinded WotC to actually innovating, rather than just recycling old tropes to the PP mechanic. Thus, the ball, dropping.
The thing is Celtic, we won't be getting another Psionic Power book for a long time after the first one.
We need our priorities straight, that's all.
Pyrokinetics is not at the top of the list. It might be an eventually build. But it's not desireable by a large enough margine of players to be the build in PP1.
But we already know what's in PP1 - the Shaper. There might be elemental powers or precog powers in it, but not another build.
Ok, Celtic, the reason I never reply/replied to any of your posts is because you rarely say anything worthwhile, and resort to mostly slander and use of deragatory comments against people in a discussion. Calm your mouth a bit, I'm not attacking anyone (well, til now anyways), nor fighting. Me and the others are just stating what we disagree about each other.
That's closer to slander than anything I've said. I do not do any of those things, except maybe with thaX, and that's because he doesn't debate. You are clearly thinking of someone else, or you are attacking me for no reason.
And while I may not know what will be in Elemental Power, this is a forum to discuss what we as players believe should be in books, and I believe Elemental Powers should be in the Elemental Power book. Stating as much is in line with the forum. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone in this discussion gets an actual say in the matter, but hopefully when the people who do, read this thread, they'll agree that Elemental Classes fit better in the Elemental Book, than the Psionic book, and agree that most players wanting an Aeromancer or Geomancer will look in that book for it.
And you keep missing the point - Elemental does not automatically = elemental. And if it ends up that way, all the people complaining that why do we have Elemental when we have Arcane are just going to complain even more, except at that m=pint they might be right.
Show
The thing is Celtic, we won't be getting another Psionic Power book for a long time after the first one.
We need our priorities straight, that's all.
Pyrokinetics is not at the top of the list. It might be an eventually build. But it's not desireable by a large enough margine of players to be the build in PP1.
But we already know what's in PP1 - the Shaper. There might be elemental powers or precog powers in it, but not another build.Ok, Celtic, the reason I never reply/replied to any of your posts is because you rarely say anything worthwhile, and resort to mostly slander and use of deragatory comments against people in a discussion. Calm your mouth a bit, I'm not attacking anyone (well, til now anyways), nor fighting. Me and the others are just stating what we disagree about each other.
That's closer to slander than anything I've said. I do not do any of those things, except maybe with thaX, and that's because he doesn't debate. You are clearly thinking of someone else, or you are attacking me for no reason.And while I may not know what will be in Elemental Power, this is a forum to discuss what we as players believe should be in books, and I believe Elemental Powers should be in the Elemental Power book. Stating as much is in line with the forum. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone in this discussion gets an actual say in the matter, but hopefully when the people who do, read this thread, they'll agree that Elemental Classes fit better in the Elemental Book, than the Psionic book, and agree that most players wanting an Aeromancer or Geomancer will look in that book for it.
And you keep missing the point - Elemental does not automatically = elemental. And if it ends up that way, all the people complaining that why do we have Elemental when we have Arcane are just going to complain even more, except at that m=pint they might be right.
Celtic, my point was that even if it's powers, that's space being taken up. If there are more iconic powers to include, those are more desirable.
Name them?
There would be a point if there were a crisis of space. Does the Telekinetic find itself wanting on the pure force standpoint? If so, that would be an issue. But if not, if a lot of the ideas of pure force have already been catered to, then the inclusion of an energy power or three is less of a drastic problem.
Celtic, my point was that even if it's powers, that's space being taken up. If there are more iconic powers to include, those are more desirable.
Pyrokinetic powers are just as iconic, if not more so in the world of fantasy and fiction, as precognition powers.
That's all.
I kind of like the idea of Pyrokinetic powers tying in with the TK Psion, to reduce its "terrain dependency". If pyrokinetic powers, as a group, focused on changing or creating terrain, it could be very useful.
Yeah, I like the creating/manipulating terrain thing. I think I mentioned this earlier, but I think it feels specifically like a pyrokineticist and not a pyromancer to take pre-existing fires and fan them, cutting off paths and forcing your enemy's hand.
Psion: Don't really care for an energy build, just a greater variety of damage type in their damage powers. I do like the idea of the shaper although not sure about ectoplasm as a medium though.
Monk: As being a massive fan of shows like Yu Yu Hakusho I'd love character options and powers that allow for ranged implement and weapon powers.
Ardent: What caused me to love the Ardent class in 3.5 was that they were so versatile and had many abilities to chose from like the Cleric. I was expecting something like what they did with the cleric. someone that had both ranged implement and melee weapon abilities. I'm hoping they do that as well with this version maybe in future updates.
Battlemind: Not exactly sure what I would want to do with this one, I would think aspects that have a passive benefit instead of an augment for more option. That or more options with the augments. Less powers but more augemtn options.
Pyrokinetic powers are just as iconic, if not more so in the world of fantasy and fiction, as precognition powers.
Celtic, I had mostly withdrawn from this thread, but come on! That statement is total bull, and you know it. Not only are precognition and other forms of predicting the future much more iconic and popular in both historic and contemporary fiction than pyrokinesis, pyromancy, or other forms of fire-control could ever hope to be, but even solely in the context of psychic phenomenon, even those that have next to nothing to do with real-world supposed phenomenon, precognition is the clear winner by a long shot. I can even half-understand the argument that the concept should get its own class as opposed to getting placed in with the Psion, but what you just said is totally ridiculous, and again, you know it.
Celtic, I had mostly withdrawn from this thread, but come on! That statement is total bull, and you know it. Not only are precognition and other forms of predicting the future much more iconic and popular in both historic and contemporary fiction than pyrokinesis, pyromancy, or other forms of fire-control could ever hope to be, but even solely in the context of psychic phenomenon, even those that have next to nothing to do with real-world supposed phenomenon, precognition is the clear winner by a long shot. I can even half-understand the argument that the concept should get its own class as opposed to getting placed in with the Psion, but what you just said is totally ridiculous, and again, you know it.
Well, since I'm saying, believe, and know for a fact the opposite, no. Pyrokinesis is just as iconic as precognition in fiction.
I believe by Pyrokinetic Powers, he means super-hero powers, where you can manipulate fire without using somantics and gestures. Half the people in this debate have a very different definition of Psychic than we have.
If I were solely talking about super powers, which I'm not but you clearly don't want to acknowledge that, so what? Pyrokinesis in comics is still a psychic phenomenon. It's just as much a part of psychics as pyrokinesis in a science fiction novel, or a fantasy novel.
Well, since I'm saying, believe, and know for a fact the opposite, no. Pyrokinesis is just as iconic as precognition in fiction.I believe by Pyrokinetic Powers, he means super-hero powers, where you can manipulate fire without using somantics and gestures. Half the people in this debate have a very different definition of Psychic than we have.
If I were solely talking about super powers, which I'm not but you clearly don't want to acknowledge that, so what? Pyrokinesis in comics is still a psychic phenomenon. It's just as much a part of psychics as pyrokinesis in a science fiction novel, or a fantasy novel.
Because you make it seem like your entire literary experience is that of comic books. That's the ONLY place where Pyrokinetics (as you define it) exists in an iconic manner. In actual literature, it's pretty much non-existent outside of King and Orson.
I'm not saying that's bad. I've built many characters based on ideas I read in comics (and I own every Marvel comic (for the 616 and Ulitmate universes at least) that's been printed since 1989 because I'm a collector that way). :P But, in the "Literary World", which does NOT include comics or graphic novels, Pyrokinetics is not prevalent at all. As a matter of fact, trying to come up with any novel other than Firestarter which has Pyrokinetics, I come up with about 5 books I can think of, though only 2 fit my definition. And the 5, I mean your definition of it, where people manipulate fire through a non-arcane means. Maybe some of the Tremere stuff, but even they don't consider it non-arcane, it falls under Thaumaturgy...
And when we say Iconic, we mean, go up to a person, ask them what they think of when they hear the word "psychic", in terms of "powers", and pretty much nobody (except maybe comicbook geeks like me) will think Pyrokinetic, but they'll ALL think of Telepathy, Telekinesis, Clairvoyance, and Divination.
Again, not trying to pick a fight here, but you're making claims that just aren't there. List some books or something...
Appearances in novels
* Children of the Red King (2002) - a relatively new Kids series where they CALL it Pyrokinetics, but they say it's "magic" pyrokinetics, not psionic.
* Firestarter (1980) - Probably the originator of the word, great book, and all she can do is light things up really.
* Red Prophet (1988) - A "Super Hero" book by Orson Scott Card
* Sweep - Again, they call it pyrokinetics, but she's a "blood witch", and is using Arcane energy.
* Hidden Talents (1999) - One of the best Psychic novels around, they really delve into ESP intensely, and one of the kids has Pyrokinesis (the 2nd novel after Firestarter to really use Pyrokinetics)
* Witchfire (2008) - Brand spanking new novel that I just read like a year ago, character has Pyrokinetics, but got it because a Witch and Warlock were her parents, and so I think it's more Arcane than Psychic. :P
PS. Hidden Talents (and True Talents, its predecessor) are great books for people playing Psions, in my humble opinion. ;)
Energy themes like fire magic (pyrokinesis, pyromancy) can be appropriate Psionic flavor. Think about the 'Firestarter' movie, and related tropes like concentrating on a cup of water to make it boil.
Even if only peripherally related to 'psychic' phenomena, fire is common for 'ki' flavor. Notice all the fire-cold-etcetera energy flavor that the Psionic Monk already has.
That said, I still prefer the Psionic power source to emphasize force-psychic effects, similar to how Shadow emphasizes necrotic or Divine emphasizes radiant.
I admit I like the Psionic power source sharing some of the radiant effects with Divine, not for celestial angelic light, but the light of the bodily aura (ki, halo, etcetera). Similarly, Psionic can share fire-cold effects with Elemental. But radiant, fire, and so on can be minor themes.
The Arcane power source seems to function as the 'generalist' power source, able to use each and every theme of the other power sources. So, for me, it is somewhat irrelevant if the Arcane power source is able to do something or not.
That said, I still prefer the Psionic power source to emphasize force-psychic effects, similar to how Shadow emphasizes necrotic or Divine emphasizes radiant.
Totally agree. I think there's room for pyrokinesis (I'd love to have some of it), but I'd be wary of dedicating a whole build to it. A few powers here and there could be awesome though.
That said, I still prefer the Psionic power source to emphasize force-psychic effects, similar to how Shadow emphasizes necrotic or Divine emphasizes radiant.
Totally agree. I think there's room for pyrokinesis (I'd love to have some of it), but I'd be wary of dedicating a whole build to it. A few powers here and there could be awesome though.
Thirded.
Force and Psych powers should always make up the majority of powers for the Psion class, however, I disagree about not getting a full build for Pyros. Pyrokinesis is certainly a prominent enough in various media to be worth of at least one power per level plus a relevant build feature. The lesser mono-energy specialists (such as cryo, electro, terra, vibro, etc) less so, but that's why I have suggested creating a more generic energy-kinetic build with powers that have variable effects bases on energy type.
But, in the "Literary World", which does NOT include comics or graphic novels,
Really? The number of comics and graphic novels that have won actual literary awards says otherwise ...
But, in the "Literary World", which does NOT include comics or graphic novels,
Really? The number of comics and graphic novels that have won actual literary awards says otherwise ...
Forsooth. I am nothing other than a very occasional reader of comic books, but I dare say they are as much literature as most fantasy and science fiction. (Although, no fiction is half so interesting to me as actual history... )
So the question is: when Superman shoots fire out of eyes, is it generated psionically or physically?
Forsooth. I am nothing other than a very occasional reader of comic books, but I dare say they are as much literature as most fantasy and science fiction. (Although, no fiction is half so interesting to me as actual history... )
So the question is: when Superman shoots fire out of eyes, is it generated psionically or physically?
His laser eyesight is physically based entirely. However it has been implied by some writers that his super strength and flight are both psionic in nature.
Forsooth. I am nothing other than a very occasional reader of comic books, but I dare say they are as much literature as most fantasy and science fiction. (Although, no fiction is half so interesting to me as actual history... )
So the question is: when Superman shoots fire out of eyes, is it generated psionically or physically?
His laser eyesight is physically based entirely. However it has been implied by some writers that his super strength and flight are both psionic in nature.
Obviously Superman is a monster.
But seriously, his abilities are all racial. Though I guess all of the Mutants in X-men are the same... *shrugs*
So, in conclusion, Superman is a Fighter. With eye-lasers. And super-breath.
... Maybe he's a Dragonborn Fighter. I'm sure WotC will give them eye-lasers eventually.
EDIT: I swear there's a class somewhere that shoots lasers out of their eyes.
But, in the "Literary World", which does NOT include comics or graphic novels,
Really? The number of comics and graphic novels that have won actual literary awards says otherwise ...
Forsooth. I am nothing other than a very occasional reader of comic books, but I dare say they are as much literature as most fantasy and science fiction. (Although, no fiction is half so interesting to me as actual history... )
I smell a No True Scotsman. While you can define Literature in a manner that excludes genre fiction, it will exclude a huge amount of material, not just sci-fi and fantasy works.
Back on topic. Do laser clerics shoot lasers out of their eyes?
Back on topic. Do laser clerics shoot lasers out of their eyes?
If they don't they should! Especially Deva ... ;)
That's a rather unusual idea of what it means to be a pyrokinetic, and not of a variety that most folks would likely recognize, or even acknowledge. In most popular fiction a pyrokinetic does indeed create and/or control REAL fire. What you're describing is more of a telepath that uses the concept of fire as a sort of astral avatar.
I was going more for a "Reality bends to the will of the psion. If a Pyro wishes something to burn it will burn, regardless of how flamable it is, indeed regardless of whether or not it has a physical presence" feel, but that's not really my point. Rather, I wanted to get across that if a player want's to take a power with a specific set of mechanical properties, in this case fire damage and dominate, then he will usually have an in-game reason why that should work, and as long as it doesn't fly in the face of the class's established aesthetic then there's no real reason to deny it.
Literature is usually a bad place to look for specific examples of psionics as supernaturnatural ability is almost always drawn from a single, setting specific source. If we do want to look at literature, we instead need to look at how these abilities are used or aquired, as these are usually the only parallels between DnD and fiction. For example, the Mages in Trudi Canavan's Black Magician trilogy use abilities that in DnD would likely be concidered psionic, and indeed match the given fluff for the Psion very well. On the other hand we have the Chronicles of the Necromancer by Gail Martin, in which magic ability is granted by the resident Diety, and as such is a toss up between Arcane and Divine.
The thread must Liiive! :D
I for one would like to see the monk get a good power that counts as a MBA(on a charge maybe?) so they are not so feat taxed. As a centered breath monk you have to take a ton of feats to be effective in normal melee and its annoying. I also support the ranged monk, just because it is very iconic and would be very cool.
Too bad about it being only one build what ever it is. No mater what we will get an imbalance as so far we have...
STR riders with scaleing will bounus
WIS riders with scaleing fort bounus
I wonder if the new build (and future builds in psionic power2) will keep to STR/WIS or branch out to CON/CHA?
I could see the CON build being an asctetic empty hand fighter that gets his riders when using ki focus or weapon "monk unarmed strike" as his implement
A CHA build based on chi/force of will/giant astral projections for intimidation powers and fear effects
Respendid phoenix strike
Stance of the jade emporer
And as someone with a box of imperial edition L5R at home I would want to see a mystick tatoo build.
I would also like to see a "can be used in place of a melee basic attack after a charge" attack. Come on the flying side kick is an iconic move
and of course chi energy blasts. In a new game mechanic thread someone came up with the idea of powers that can be improved by pouring more actions into the I would like to see a full discipline power that was a close blast 1 but the move action was if you use the attack action of this power this round it becomes a range 10
Of course I would also like to see some (non daily) powers that were not full discipline. while a cool concept I would like the option for a weird build that is unlike all the rest.
As for the Battlemind, I think they have an Int or Dex secondary build, with more psychokinetic-based powers, since it's one area I seeing lacking for them in potential archetypes. I suspect they might also get options to extend the range of mind spike under certain circumstances.
A Monk|Rouge/Fighter could be pretty sick as a feycharger if it had a good monk charge at-will. It would also be a very cool full discipline power.
I would also like to see an actual feat that boosts flurry of blows. Besides wielding a club there is no way to get more damage on flurry of blows, which well blows. Monks rock damage wise at heroic then just kinda taper off, especially for the centered breath monk. Maybe make a feat that gives monks Double the stat modifier at paragon, and triple at epic? Lets go with a 16 in the flurry of blows stat that gives us what 24-28 stat wise at epic, which is a +7 through +9, so that would be around +27 damage at epic, rangers get 3d6 at epic, which at max is 36, ehh it balances well enough. It might over power the monk a bit, maybe just +double stat modifier, it would still be a very nice feat.
Standing Death Stance also, just for kicks.
As Ardents are supposably one of the newer and more spontaneously trained psionic classes, I can see most of them being weapon users as it would feel natural to someone like them, since it usually requires more of a tradition to be focused on implements (sorcerers being the exception). Except that I can see that perhaps there was a hidden order of Ardents that focused on using implements, perhaps they've been around before the other Ardents, or maybe they're just as 'new' and it's just feels natural to them to use implements.
Since I really like the idea of new builds using a different secondary ability, I think Int probably makes sense for an Ardent. And it would not only make light armour viable for an Ardent, put also probably work for an implement using Ardent as a trade off for having implements in the first place.
Battleminds:
In addition to my idea on how there should be psychokinetic battleminds with Int or Dex secondary. Thinking more on what they could do with some of the existing mechanics, I could see their being feats to have effect like slowing anyone they use Blurred Step on, Using Mind Spike with reach weapons, a last resort spend a healing surge to use Mind Spike as close burst 10, or inflicting additional penalties to those affected by demand such as making allies have concealment against the target of demand. And then maybe a few feats to improve on the pseudo-strikerness for anyone who doesn't want to focus on improving the defenderness of a Battlemind.
Monks:
Some ideas for weapon options based on Chinese martial arts, on what a weapon-based Monk build might have.
Dao/Sabre (Scimitar/Longsword)
Jian/Tai-Chi Sword (Rapier/Longsword)
Gaun-Dao/Glaives/Halberds/Various Polearms
Falchion
Melon Hammers (Maces except that maces lack the offhand property)
Meteor Hammer(Either a new weapon or Spiked Chain)
Paired Rope Darts/Paired Whipping Chains(Scourge, Whips or new weapon)
Three Piece Rod(Probably requires new weapon)
Paired Tiger Hook Sword(new weapon or Khopesh, and used as pairs)
Paired Butterfly Swords(parrying daggers? or shortswords?)
Paired Wind-Water Wheels/Deer Horn Knives/etc(Cutting wheels)
Psions:
Since it's been said that the 3rd build will be Shapers (following the trend where the new build of any controller class seems to be summoning), and we know that it will most likely be the Dailies that summon Astral Constructs. I'm guessing the at-wills of that build will be temporary zones, and some of the crystal throwing and blobs of ectoplasm that existed before.
I could see the Telekinetic build needing more options to make them competitive against the Telepathic build. As for what the Telepathic build might need, is some powers with the keyword fear as another way of exploiting certain feats.
As has been said before, a ranged Implement/Weapon build. A good idea might be to include some "style" feats that change certain weapon attacks into implement attacks (like the bowlord).
I'd also like an Epic Destiny that actually MENTIONS having psychic powers.
Battlemind
Implement powers. Also, a feat something like the following (in part or in whole) would be appreciated.
Functional Defense
Prerequisite: any Battlemind that wants to function effectively as a defender (c.f. Sudden Roots, Intelligent Blademaster, Mighty Challenge)
Benefit: Your Mind Spike's range increases to a close burst 3. In addition, when a creature triggers your Blurred Step opportunity action, and you end the shift adjacent to the triggering creature, it is slowed until the end of its next turn.
Monk
We already know we're getting weapon powers, so all I can say is I'd like it to be a SoulKnife build.
Mind Blade
This option replaces unarmed combatant. As a minor action you may manifest a mind blade composed of psionic energy. The mind blade is a weapon in the Light Blade group, with the off-hand and light thrown properties. You are proficient with your mind blade; it has a +3 proficiency bonus and does 1d8 force damage on a hit. You may enchant and disenchant your mind blade. Disenchanting your mind blade does not turn it to dust. If you drop your mind blade, or otherwise release it from your hand for longer than one round, it vanishes.
And this
Versatile SoulKnife
Prerequisite: Monk, Cha 13, Mind Blade
Benefit: When you manifest your mind blade, you may choose to have it appear as a weapon of any group, rather than a light blade. Your mind blade may gain the benefit of any feats, powers, class features, and other benefits which depend on weapon group.
and this
Knife to the Soul
Prerequisite: 21st level, Monk, Mind Blade
Benefit: When you make a weapon attack with your mind blade that targets AC, you may have that attack target Will defense instead
And this
Dual Soul Striker
Prerequisite: Monk, Mind blade
Benefit: When you manifest your mind blade, you may manifest two mind blades instead of one (one in each hand). Both share the same enhancement bonus and properties, but only your main hand mind blade can access the weapon's powers (if any). While wielding two mind blades, your Flurry of Blows deals extra damage equal to the enhancement bonus of your off-hand mind blade.
Psion
We already know we're getting a Shaper, so I'll just say the telekinetic build needs more hard control abilities like stun, daze, immobilize, restrain, etc. If you can fit blinded or dominated in there, awesome (if you want an idea, how about if the Psion generates tendrils of force INSIDE the enemy's body, thus taking control of him by working his body like a TK puppet).
Also, precognition abilities and energy type attacks (like burning flux) would be cool too.
The Battle Telekineticist (Paragon Path)
The pieces in any battlefield must be tactically placed before the game begins. I place the pieces.
Prerequisite: Telekinetic Focus, Level 11
---- Insert thematic text.
Battle Telekineticist Class Features
- Psychic Inclination (Level 11): +2 Power Points
- Share my Motion (Level 11): Whenever you spend an Action Point to use a Psychic Power, you push all enemies adjacent to you a number of squares equal to your Wisdom Modifier.
- Mneumonic for Kinetic (Level 11): Whenever using a Psychic Power that calls for your Charisma Modifier, treat your Charisma Modifier as being half of its value (round up). Whenever using a Psycic Power that calls for your Wisdom Modifier, you gain a +1 bonus to your Wisdom Modifier for that power.
- Push to the Limit (Level 16): Any Psionic Power that generates a Speed for the target, the Power receives a +2 Bonus to Speed.
Battle Telekineticist Disciplines
Place the Pieces - Battle Telekineticist Attack 11
Encounter ~ Psionic, Implement
Standard Action ~ Area Burst 1 within 10 squares
Target: All enemies in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Hit: Slide target 6 in any direction, including up or diagonal. If the creature is in the air at the end of your turn, it takes Falling Damage equal to the distance to the ground (1d10 for every 2), falling straight down. Creatures that can fly or are immune to falling damage, are undamaged by this attack, though they are still moved.
Effect: You slide any allies in the burst area 6.
Wall of Force - Battle Telekineticist Utility 12
Daily ~ Psionic, Implement, Force, Conjuration
Standard Action ~ Area Wall 8 within 10
Effect: You conjure a wall of force that consists of contigious squares filled with Force. It can be up to 8 squares long, and 4 squares high. The wall lasts until the end of your next turn. It prevents movement, and blocks Line of Effect, though not Line of Sight.
Sustain Minor: Wall persists.
Place the Battlefield - Battle Telekineticist Attack 20
Daily ~ Psionic, Implement, Force
Standard Action ~ Close Burst 10
Target: All Enemies in Burst
Attack: Intelligence vs Fortitude
Hit: Slide target a number of squares in any direction, including up or diagonal. The number of squares equals your Wisdom Modifier. If the creature is in the air at the end of your turn, it takes Falling Damage equal to the distance to the ground (1d10 for every 2), falling straight down. Creatures that can fly or are immune to falling damage, are undamaged by this attack, though they are still moved.
Effect: You slide any allies in the burst area 6.
**Note, based the 'power' of that last one on the Spellstorm Mage's level 20 power. I never played to level 20, so don't know if it's overpowered or not, but seemed fair in comparison.
Then again, I'd also like to see an option for at-will telekinesis for the Telekinetic psion, and a way for the Telepathic psion to get at-will telepathy.
Shapers would be cool, so long as they keep some of the versatility of astral constructs (which really differentiated them from other summons). Perhaps they could use a similar system to that used for the Primal Slayer summon from Primal Power, where a Psion can spend an action to change the creature's form, literally reworking it's abilities with the power of the Psion's mind.
And more as speculation than as a wishlist, I'm thinking of what psionic racial feats might look like:
Infernal Talent
Prereqs: tiefling, infernal wrath racial power, psionic augmentation class feature
Benefit: When you use infernal wrath and apply its effects to a power with the augmentable keyword, you gain one power point that you must spend this turn.
Gifted Dilletante
Prereqs: half-elf, dilettante power has augmentable keyword
Benefit: You gain one power point. In addition, you can use the augment 1 option of your dilletante racial power. You do not gain access to the augment 2 option.
I'd also like some racial feats or maybe even a paragon path to allow dragonborn with heritage tying them to gem dragons. I know they haven't been brought to 4e yet - they weren't even alluded to as one of the dragon types: chromatic, metallic, catastrophic, planar, and linnorm, but I want them to return. So why not allow psionic dragonborn to take after them?
... not to mention, feats, backgrounds, bloodlines, and even magic items for your psionic character.
Energycing Chance
Prereq : Halfling, Psionic
When you use your Second Chance racial power and an enemy misses you because of it's effect you gain 1 Power Point
that would be nice and easy
But yeah, there needs to be a runs-in-the-family motif: 'particular clans or extended families with a hereditary knack for a particular expression of psionics'.
Dark Sun + Psionic Bloodlines = Dune D20
I hope the Essentials line includes a new Psion build that uses the new simplified class mechanics, with beefier Encounter powers and ... zero Daily powers!
I hope the Players Options books include all kinds of Psionic classes, but I hope the Essentials books include one.
I would also like to see an actual feat that boosts flurry of blows. Besides wielding a club there is no way to get more damage on flurry of blows, which well blows. Monks rock damage wise at heroic then just kinda taper off, especially for the centered breath monk. Maybe make a feat that gives monks Double the stat modifier at paragon, and triple at epic? Lets go with a 16 in the flurry of blows stat that gives us what 24-28 stat wise at epic, which is a +7 through +9, so that would be around +27 damage at epic, rangers get 3d6 at epic, which at max is 36, ehh it balances well enough. It might over power the monk a bit, maybe just +double stat modifier, it would still be a very nice feat.
First things first 3d6 can NEVER equal 36.
Second thing: 3d8 average damage is 13.5.
Third thing: The monks flurry of blows affects more targets as you level up.
Heroic tier FoB = 7/8 damage to 1 target.
Heroic tier HQ with Lethal Hunter = 4.5 average to 1 target. 8 max.
Paragon tier FoB = 8/9 damage to 2 targets and if you're stone fist 9 damage to one and 11 to another.
Paragon tier HQ with LH= 9 average damage to one target. 16 max.
Epic Tier FoB = 10/11 damage to potentially 8 taregts but we'll assume 3.
Epic tier HQ with LH = 13.5 average damage to 1 target. 24 max.
FoB balances doing less damage with it being automatic damage and it affecting more than one adjacent enemy. I don't feel that FoB damage needs any upgrades at all besides the ones that are already out.
I would also like to see an actual feat that boosts flurry of blows. Besides wielding a club there is no way to get more damage on flurry of blows, which well blows. Monks rock damage wise at heroic then just kinda taper off, especially for the centered breath monk. Maybe make a feat that gives monks Double the stat modifier at paragon, and triple at epic? Lets go with a 16 in the flurry of blows stat that gives us what 24-28 stat wise at epic, which is a +7 through +9, so that would be around +27 damage at epic, rangers get 3d6 at epic, which at max is 36, ehh it balances well enough. It might over power the monk a bit, maybe just +double stat modifier, it would still be a very nice feat.
First things first 3d6 can NEVER equal 36.
Second thing: 3d8 average damage is 13.5.
Third thing: The monks flurry of blows affects more targets as you level up.
Heroic tier FoB = 7/8 damage to 1 target.
Heroic tier HQ with Lethal Hunter = 4.5 average to 1 target. 8 max.
Paragon tier FoB = 8/9 damage to 2 targets and if you're stone fist 9 damage to one and 11 to another.
Paragon tier HQ with LH= 9 average damage to one target. 16 max.
Epic Tier FoB = 10/11 damage to potentially 8 taregts but we'll assume 3.
Epic tier HQ with LH = 13.5 average damage to 1 target. 24 max.
FoB balances doing less damage with it being automatic damage and it affecting more than one adjacent enemy. I don't feel that FoB damage needs any upgrades at all besides the ones that are already out.
I also forgot to mention, Ki Weapon, Crashing Tempest Style, Starblade Flurry and the Mountain Devotee PP or Initiate of the Dragon PP. All of these can be used together and give a Stone Fist a total of:
Heroic:
3 + 4 (Str) + 2 (Ki Weapon) + 2 (Crashing Tempest Style)
= 11 auto damage agaisnt anyone previously hit, 13 agaisnt anyone you didn't hit.
Paragon:
3 + 6 (Str) + 2 (Ki Weapon) + 2 (Crashing Tempest Style) + 2 (PP)
= 15 auto damage agaisnt anyone previously hit, 19 agaisnt anyone you didn't hit. Plus anyone within 5 squares is an additional target taking 19 damage.
Epic:
3 + 8 (Str) + 2 (Ki Weapon) + 2 (Crashing Tempest Style) + 2 (PP)
= 17 auto damage agaisnt anyone previously hit, 23 agaisnt anyone you didn't hit. Plus anyone within 5 squares is an additional target taking 23 damage.
Not to mention if you take Brutal Flurry:
Paragon=17 additional damage agaisnt anyone you hit
Epic=21 additional damage agaisnt anyone you hit
This is obviously the top end of optimization but if you take a few points off the final numbers (i.e 3 if you go Centered) but you still have yourself a really high dmaaging class feature.
Psionic at-wills will now scale at Epic.
Psionic Ranged Striker.
Soulknife the 4E version as a new psionic melee/ranged striker.
More options (Enlarge Power, Psionic Focus, etc...) for psionic controllers.
More Level 3-27 at-wills that are worth taking.
Ardent (the psionic leader class) close burst debuffs that doesn't debuff/harm your allies.
More Disciplines for the Psion (metacreativity -> customizable Astral Constructs anyone?) and the monk (single target focus)?
Overchannel (well probably unbalancing *sigh*)
Can only hope...
Psionic at-wills will now scale at Epic. Psionic Ranged Striker. Soulknife the 4E version as a new psionic melee/ranged striker. More options (Enlarge Power, Psionic Focus, etc...) for psionic controllers. More Level 3-27 at-wills that are worth taking. Ardent (the psionic leader class) close burst debuffs that doesn't debuff/harmyour allies. More Disciplines for the Psion (metacreativity -> customizable Astral Constructs anyone?) and the monk (single target focus)? Overchannel (well probably unbalancing *sigh*)
Is this official? If so, where did you hear of it?
Psionic at-wills will now scale at Epic. Psionic Ranged Striker. Soulknife the 4E version as a new psionic melee/ranged striker. More options (Enlarge Power, Psionic Focus, etc...) for psionic controllers. More Level 3-27 at-wills that are worth taking. Ardent (the psionic leader class) close burst debuffs that doesn't debuff/harmyour allies. More Disciplines for the Psion (metacreativity -> customizable Astral Constructs anyone?) and the monk (single target focus)? Overchannel (well probably unbalancing *sigh*)
Is this official? If so, where did you hear of it?
That's his Wishlist/expectations.
That's like asking for Bards to no longer have song abilities, or for Paladins to no longer have a healing touch.
I really just found this thread, and I know this is old, but you know you can do both of these, right? Bard singing is just flavor text, and you can swap out Lay On Hands for other abilities.
Just sayin'.
Psionic at-wills will now scale at Epic. Psionic Ranged Striker. Soulknife the 4E version as a new psionic melee/ranged striker. More options (Enlarge Power, Psionic Focus, etc...) for psionic controllers. More Level 3-27 at-wills that are worth taking. Ardent (the psionic leader class) close burst debuffs that doesn't debuff/harmyour allies. More Disciplines for the Psion (metacreativity -> customizable Astral Constructs anyone?) and the monk (single target focus)? Overchannel (well probably unbalancing *sigh*)
Is this official? If so, where did you hear of it?
That's his Wishlist/expectations.
Darn I was getting excited there for a minute I loved everything he mentioned. I think I am suffering "Friday Burn Out".
Psionic at-wills will now scale at Epic.
Psionic Ranged Striker.
Soulknife the 4E version as a new psionic melee/ranged striker.
More options (Enlarge Power, Psionic Focus, etc...) for psionic controllers.
More Level 3-27 at-wills that are worth taking.
Ardent (the psionic leader class) close burst debuffs that doesn't debuff/harm your allies.
More Disciplines for the Psion (metacreativity -> customizable Astral Constructs anyone?) and the monk (single target focus)?
Overchannel (well probably unbalancing *sigh*)
Is this official? If so, where did you hear of it?
That's his Wishlist/expectations.
Darn I was getting excited there for a minute I loved everything he mentioned. I think I am suffering "Friday Burn Out".
Yeah sorry just adding my 2 coppers...we can only hope right?
There's another bloodline that grants the Aberrant origin (is it an origin?). I wonder if it's tied to illithids in some fashion.
Foulborn appears to be the second bloodline, and grants the Aberrant origin. Sounds like it's tied more to Foulspawn than to Illithids - which is, I think, a great call.
Someone on RPGnet is answering questions (linky).
And it looks like Pyrokinesis gets a Paragon Path (and probably non-Path powers), even if it doesn't get a full build.
As it should be. =)
And it looks like Pyrokinesis gets a Paragon Path (and probably non-Path powers), even if it doesn't get a full build.
As it should be. =)
Don't worry, they'll still get a full build long before Prescients ever do.
They also get their own Paragon Paths. And it looks like Pyrokinesis gets a Paragon Path (and probably non-Path powers), even if it doesn't get a full build.
And what would be the opposite of pyrokinesis? Friokinesis ("frio" being the Spanish word for cold)? Freokinesis (as in Freon, what used to be put into air conditioning units until DuPont's pantent ran out, and they had to replace it with something more expensive and less effective, as well as declare it to be "bad for the environment")?
Do we really need for a dozen or so new TK classes?
Well we'll see with the new book and hopefully a few more class acts articles soon!