First question is how will they port that delicious psionics flavor (ie, power points) over from 3.5, which was to me the most iconic thing about the classes.
My speculation is that classes with psionics as a power source will either have a pool of points that they can use to augment their powers in various ways, limited in some way, or they'll be able to sacrifice the use of some powers to enhance others. Given that the mechanics of a limited pool doesn't seem to fit the 4e flavor, I think the latter is a more likely mechanic.
Here's how I see it working: As with everyone else, your average Psion will have his at-wills, his encounters, his dailys, and his utilities. You can do what everyone else does during an encounter - ie, use your powers like everyone else. But several powers have an extra bit of text at the end, saying something like:
"Sacrifice the use of an encounter power: This power deals an extra +wis mod damage and the target is stunned until the end of your next round."
"Sacrifice the use of a daily power: This power's area of effect extends by two squares and deals one extra type of energy damage of your choice."
They might be able to make other sacrifices as well, such as hit points, action points, or actions, in order to power up their effects. Basically, psionics-based classes would have differing energy management than other classes.
Furthermore, the types of things psions would do would, as might be expected, be related to the mind - things like charm and domination effects, aversion affects, you name it (in addition to, well, you know, lots of psychic damage).
The real question to me is: Are the other disciplines still going to be around, or will all psions be telepaths now? I'm going to assume this is so, even if it saddens me, since there seems to be a focus on more specialization. But, who knows, maybe we'll get some Nomad or (please wizards!) Shaper in there too~
Anyway, onto the actual class speculation:
Controller: Psion. Pretty much a given; probably a lot of mind-control effects and abilities to turn foes against each other. Paragon paths -might- cover some of the other disciplines, such as psychoportation or metacreation.
Striker: Wilders. If the Psion doesn't use something similar to my proposed sacrifice mechanic, Wilders should, and should retain their somewhat unpredictable nature. Likely a lot of energy effects, possibly with an at-will Energy Ray (1 target; psionic; fire, thunder, ice, acid (see text) - hit: 1d6 energy damage of one type you choose when you use this power.) Possibly powers related to emotion as well.
Defender: Say it with me now: PSYCHIC WARRIOR *cheering erupts* Lots of mind-affecting attacks which link with marks; possibly the ability to forgo the use of encounter or daily powers for raw damage in attacks. Soulknife will be a paragon path here, as will Slayer (maybe.)
Leader: If there is a Psionic leader, it will probably be the Ardent, much to my dismay (I would much rather see something akin to Dreamscarred's Society Mind, but well, the SM belongs to Dreamscarred. c'est la vie). Will possibly have a pact system much like a warlock's but focusing on a philosophy/alignment.
Thoughts?
They will get 4 powers at each level when first revealed just like every other class.
I think the Telepath will be the first psionic class revealed. They will most likely be Charisma based. One of their class abilities will be natural telepathy with a VERY limited range.
Psicrystals won't come out until the Arcane familiar rules are released.
First off, I'm... of mixed thoughts on what WotC will deliver. What I want to see may not be what we actually get in the final product.
What I would like to see would be some of these:
- NO Unifying Special Mechanic. 4th Edition Design has moved away from the "Power Source X Role" grid, so there's no reason to treat psionics as unique in that regard.
- Split Psionic classes by "Role" and concept. The following would be my preferences...
- Telepath; Psionic Leader (minor in controller).
- Shaper; Psionic Controller, focus on astral constructs and battlefield control, absorbs "energy" powers as well.
- Egoist / Psychic Warrrior; Psionic Defender (minor in striker), absorbs both the Egoist discipline and general psychic-warrior-ey-ness.
- Soulknife; Psionic Striker, absorbs the Nomad discipline.
- NO Blended power-sources. For example...
- NO Divine Mind. [Cleric or Paladin]/[Psionic Class] should suffice.
- NO Ardent. [Cleric or Paladin]/[Psionic Class] should suffice.
- Wilder as a Paragon Path, or perhaps as a specific "Multiclass-only" class option (assuming WotC doesn't both the concept wholesale in the FRPG).
- One or two epic destinies. One that mirrors "Archmage," and another that fits better as another "universal" destiny, but this time for the Leader role.
What I'm actually expecting from Wizards is:
- Psion class (Wizard with more psychic powers).
- Wilder class (Warlock with more psychic powers, and a "wild" mechanic).
- Psychic Warrior (Not sure on this one - probably similar to a cross between Fighter and Cleric).
- Soulknife (A striker, of some kind).
- An "Augment" mechanic for all psionic classes (or perhaps just for the Psion - who knows).
Would love to see a psion controller that has a telepathy and a psychokinesis built with some minor leader utilities. Possibly a return of contact as a mechanic? It was clanky throughout 2E but it was always flavorful. A psychic warrior defender sounds pretty obvious, I'll agree on seeing him focus on egoist powers, though I would also like to see him very mobile. Maybe he could grab the auras from the divine mind? Also could use a name change, psychic warrior is just uninspired. Soulknife as a striker seems so natural, would be fun if he had access to a ranged built as well.
As for an augment, it could be rather easy, from a limited times per day class feature that ups damage or attack rolls to a psychic focus but only once per encounter, that you can use to activate specials out of certain powers.
I don't know about a leader tbh. Telepath has some leaderish abilities, and there have been many attempts at psonic healers as well. Eberron had a proposal about a thoughtsinger which was a psionic bard-like class (I think the Hellcow has it on his website) which could be adapted for 4th. Anyway no reason whatsoever to feel the grid, it's not compulsory in any sense.
Psionics will be in PHB 3 (mid 2009 earliest) or...
Psionics will get their own book do to HIGH demand (unlikely though)
What we will probably get in the PHB 3 is this:
8 new classes (Psionic, Shadow, and Ki power source)
2 will be shadow - Necromancer and Illusionist
3 will be Ki - Monk, Ninja, Samurai
3 will be psionic - Telepath, Psion, Psychic warrior
Speculation on classes:
Telepath (Leader)
-mind control, bonuses to alleys (feel like auras), healing, think psionic warlord
-Paragon Paths: Mind Bender, Seer, Wilder?
Psion (controller)
-psychic/force based powers, teleports, some energy, augmentation (power points? action points?)
-Paragon Paths: Ardent, Shaper, Nomad, Kineticist
Psychic Warrior (Defender)
-psionic paladin (without religion)
-Paragon Paths: Soul Knife, Egoist, Lurker, ????
Epic Destiny thats psionic in nature...?
Though I could see arguing that the Wilder would replace Telepath as a class and just make Telepath a paragon path...
I could also see (and would like to see) Soul Knife as it's own class with either a melee or ranged build. Though I would change it's name from soul knife to Soul Blade...but thats just me.
What do you guys think?
Don't know much on the class, seemed more like a 'chaos psion' or 'psionic sorcerer', just an alternate way.
Mind control/enchantment: Focuses on psychic damage and imposing conditions (charm and dominate, and maybe some immobilization and other effects).
Psychokinesis: Moving stuff around with your mind. Will probably deal force damage and focus on pushing/shifting enemies around the battlefield.
Utility powers will probably include mind-reading, mental communication, and levitating oneself (and/or allies) with telekinetic force.
I'm guessing that familiars will be in Arcane Power, and the psion will probably arrive in PHB3, so if the psicrystal is a familiar-type object then it would probably be there. Otherwise, crystals might be reimagined as implements for the psion.
The psion might be the base class while all the specializations like telepath, telekinetic, etc. are paragon classes.
Would love if they released the class as a preview like the artificer.
Would love if they released the class as a preview like the artificer.
we'll probably get that...maybe in like 6 months to a years time. I doubt (but am hopeful) for sooner than that as of this posting.
*e* Speaking of Elans... I know that they probably won't show up in this edition, but man I wish they would. They were my absolute favourite 3.5 race.
I'm guessing that familiars will be in Arcane Power, and the psion will probably arrive in PHB3, so if the psicrystal is a familiar-type object then it would probably be there. Otherwise, crystals might be reimagined as implements for the psion.
I hope you're right in regard to this last sentence. The very basic idea of a psicrystal was cool: seed a crystal with a splinter of your personality, creating a living crystal that is as much a part of you as anything else. When they decided that they could eventually sprout little spider legs and scuttle about independently, that's when they moved into the realm of lame.
I say "NO" to psicrystals as psionic familiars. Leave them as psychic foci.
3 will be Ki - Monk, Ninja, Samurai
I really, really, REALLY hope that Wizards does NOT make the mistake of making a "Ki" Ninja and "Ki" Samurai class. A Ninja or Samurai paragon path would work well, but for heroic tier, the fighter and rogue already fill this roll more than well enough. Hell, the rogue is already awesome with sherukin. There is no need to include a "Ki" version of a martial class, just because the class has an oriental name. I'm very cool with a Ki striker class, a Ki defender class, and the like, but Ninja and Samurai should definitely NOT be what these classes are. Monk makes sense as a Ki striker or defender. Something like a Sohei might work well also. But really, a Samurai is just a fighter by a different name... same with the rogue and ninja.
That said, from the "Convert a Character" article and Bruce Cordell's playtest "psion," I would expect the following:
-Real psionics are coming around the time Eberron comes out, though Eberron may be first by a slight margin (I recall statements that emphasized the upcoming Kalashtar as still psychically flavored but no longer tied mechaniclly to psionic classes).
-Some kind of "augmentation" mechanic, but a minor one, possibly even in the form of feats or specific class' features. Personally, I think the at-will/encounter/daily power metric is very appropriate for psionics, as it models increaed effort --> more dramatic effects.
-Crystals still in, probably some form of implement.
-I expect there to still be explody psions. Which I'm fine with. Probably, less emphasis on element-swapping to distinguish it from the wizard, sorcerer, and upcoming "elemental" classes.
-The same or a different class will have lots of psychic damage powers, dominate and other status effects, and utilities that involve screwing with people.
-Heavy use of alt-stat builds, such as (assuming Int as primary) Con, Cha, or even others, considering that they played heavily with the idea in 3.0.
Now for even more rampant speculation (no sources):
- The psion can be essentially divided into three alternate builds or classes that people actually used. 1. Blaster. 2. Telepath. 3. Shaper (summoner with astral theme). I expect to see psion specialities go the way of spell schools (because they are the same damn thing) and seer/nomad type stuff to become utilities, rituals, etc. All of the three main types above could be described as controllers. Shaper could well be the first "dedicated" summoner class, as they will have played with the idea with ranger companions (Martial Power, Adventurer's Vault) and various Primal classes (PHBII).
- I wouldn't expect the psychic warrior to remain a self-buffer in the explicit sense. They'll come up with a new marking mechanic (even a reflavored divine challenge would actually make perfect sense) and then probably he'll look rather like a reflavored swordmage or paladin. 3 possible builds: 1. flashy explody, 2. weapon master (weapon keyword powers a la fighter), 3. reflavored self-buffing (i.e. you hit everyone burst 2, flavor text is you turn into a Form of Doom and smack them, then revert back).
- The psychic warrior, telepath, or ardent could also be used as the name for a psionic leader class. The concept is too obvious not to use immediately.
- a Psionic striker is also pretty obvious, soulknife/lurk type thing. However, since strikers are arguably the most straightforward class to build they might hold off on it if only 3 psions make it into the PHB. I will say that I'd expect to see a soulknife before a psychic-themed warlock-ish thing, much like how the PHB2 Divine Striker is apparently a 2-H weapon wielding guy.
- Don't get married to names. I'd be surprised if they actually name a class "egoist" in this edition, and even "shaper" might be a little too bland. On the other hand they may well use telepath.
-On the one hand, D&D seems very eager to cement its genre status as "high fantasy" i.e. no firearms. On the other, 3.5 psionics was such a success that if you want them to strip all the "sci-fi" out of it (i.e. you can't even deal with "telepath" or terms from modern psychology, because that's literally as close as psionics gets to sci-fi), prepare to be disappointed. Hell, there is a tattooed "wizard" waving a crystal around in a chapter illustration of the PHB.
*stuff*
Fair enough. And yes, Psionics will retain their slightly "sci-fi" flavor... though personally, I always found them to be a lot closer to some Eastern religions (buddhism, taoism, hinduism, esp hindu aesceticsm) than to the straight sci-fi types. Meh.
For the Telepath, Blaster, Shaper thing, it might be a bit like how they did the Warlock: One class (psion), three different styles/paths you can take. Maybe they'll give them different names, too... Kinetecist is still a pretty damn cool name for a blaster, but for Shaper, perhaps name them to fit more into the astral plane, and perhaps connect them to dreams more or something.
I see your point about the augmentation mechanic. It'd still be cool to have something similar in there.
(1) role: controller
(2) two builds:
(i) build #1 - charm/enchantment oriented build (psychic damage type) with charisma as primary/attack stat;
(ii) build #2 - illusion oriented build (psychic damage type) with intelligence as primary/attack stat;
(iii) perhaps wisdom could serve as the secondary stat, if any, for each build;
(iv) perhaps telekinesis powers (force damage type) are included in each build for variety;
Power sources still have subsystems. Our 2 divine classes have channel divinity. Our 2 ( complete ) Arcane classes have spellbooks. Psions can still retain their agument ability.
On another note I expect to see the Psychic Warrior and the Psion come back, not sure if there will be a third class or not. I do hope we see Astral Constructs right away, as they were one of the most distinct things about the class.
Controller: Psion. Pretty much a given; probably a lot of mind-control effects and abilities to turn foes against each other. Paragon paths -might- cover some of the other disciplines, such as psychoportation or metacreation.
Striker: Wilders. If the Psion doesn't use something similar to my proposed sacrifice mechanic, Wilders should, and should retain their somewhat unpredictable nature. Likely a lot of energy effects, possibly with an at-will Energy Ray (1 target; psionic; fire, thunder, ice, acid (see text) - hit: 1d6 energy damage of one type you choose when you use this power.) Possibly powers related to emotion as well.
Defender: Say it with me now: PSYCHIC WARRIOR *cheering erupts* Lots of mind-affecting attacks which link with marks; possibly the ability to forgo the use of encounter or daily powers for raw damage in attacks. Soulknife will be a paragon path here, as will Slayer (maybe.)
Leader: If there is a Psionic leader, it will probably be the Ardent, much to my dismay (I would much rather see something akin to Dreamscarred's Society Mind, but well, the SM belongs to Dreamscarred. c'est la vie). Will possibly have a pact system much like a warlock's but focusing on a philosophy/alignment.
Psion as a base class in 4E is limiting and uses a name that does not evoke the right imagery. 4th-edition classes do no do everything. The wizard class is, afterall, a 3rd-edition Evoker. Defenders are not High Damage, making their encounter and daily powers just "high damage" is stepping on the toes of the striker classes.
My take/hopes:
Controller: Telepath (psychic illusionist with minor tk blasts, but nothing as good as what the strikers have)
Striker (melee): Psyknife (update of the soulknife)
Striker (ranged): Kineticist (eats the Nomad and has non-element/fire/lighting blaster)
Defender: Psychic Warrior (eats the psychci shapeshifting powers and gains an awesome "you can only see me" type mark)
Leader: WarMind (balance type psi user who has both psi blasts and psi-charged melee attacks, mental links for communication and psychic infusions/morale-boosts to enhance abilities)
A Ninja or Samurai paragon path would work well, but for heroic tier, the fighter and rogue already fill this roll more than well enough.
This depends on whether you're thinking 'historical' ninjas or fantasy ninjas, and/or historical samurai or fantasy samurai.
This being a fantasy game and all ...
I expect we will see some power point type system.
I really, really doubt we'll see points anything in 4th Ed, Psionics will not have its own subsystem like it has in the past; it will be different in other ways/implementations from other power sources.
This depends on whether you're thinking 'historical' ninjas or fantasy ninjas, and/or historical samurai or fantasy samurai.
This being a fantasy game and all ...
While I have no problem with the Ki power source, now that it is simply the power source of the soul, so it can encompass things such as Incarnum and other soul concepts, and it has been separated from a purely Asian/Oriental thing at last (thank god), I do not want it to be a catch all power source for any class with an Asian/Oriental title.
So while I think the Sohei could be a Ki Defender (the whole warrior monk thing, since the monk is most likely going to be a Ki Striker), but I see no reason for all Asian/Oriental classes to have the Ki power source, such as Shugenja or Wu-Jen.
What do you think?
Originally Posted by Steely_Dan
So while I think the Sohei could be a Ki Defender (the whole warrior monk thing, since the monk is most likely going to be a Ki Striker), but I see no reason for all Asian/Oriental classes to have the Ki power source, such as Shugenja or Wu-Jen.
I agree completely. There’s no need to slap the power “Ki” over a class, just because it’s got a Japanese name. Shugenja and Wu jen were much more tied to the five Elements of Rokugan, so they make much more sense as Elemental classes.
I agree completely. There’s no need to slap the power “Ki” over a class, just because it’s got a Japanese name. Shugenja and Wu jen were much more tied to the five Elements of Rokugan, so they make much more sense as Elemental classes.
Well that's two of us!
I agree completely. There’s no need to slap the power “Ki” over a class, just because it’s got a Japanese name. Shugenja and Wu jen were much more tied to the five Elements of Rokugan, so they make much more sense as Elemental classes.
amen to that.
My take/hopes:
Controller: Telepath (psychic illusionist with minor tk blasts, but nothing as good as what the strikers have)
Striker (melee): Psyknife (update of the soulknife)
Striker (ranged): Kineticist (eats the Nomad and has non-element/fire/lighting blaster)
Defender: Psychic Warrior (eats the psychci shapeshifting powers and gains an awesome "you can only see me" type mark)
Leader: WarMind (balance type psi user who has both psi blasts and psi-charged melee attacks, mental links for communication and psychic infusions/morale-boosts to enhance abilities)
every class has 2 builds (at least 2 builds--i am looking at you, warlock).
therefore, psyknife and kineticist can be 2 builds of the same striker class (see ranger class).
so, too, with the psychic controller. the telepath, as you name it (good name, btw), could have one build that focuses on illusions and another build that focuses on charm/enchantments.
every class has 2 builds (at least 2 builds--i am looking at you, warlock).
therefore, psyknife and kineticist can be 2 builds of the same striker class (see ranger class).
so, too, with the psychic controller. the telepath, as you name it (good name, btw), could have one build that focuses on illusions and another build that focuses on charm/enchantments.
I was thinking the Ranger is the exception when it comes to striker builds... but I could definitely see this:
Kineticist < I just love that name... >,>;; >
Build 1: Blade Kineticist
- Soul Blade and Psychic Assassin would be Paragon Paths created to build off of this build.
Build 2: Blast Kineticist
- Pyrokineticist and Psychic Hand (telekinesis specialist) could be this build's paragon paths.
...
The Kineticist could even have a class feature like the warlock that dictates one of its At-Will powers...
Manifest Weapon: You pic whether your kinetic power manifests itself as a blast of psychic energy (Blast) or as a blade you wield like a light blade (Blade). When you choose your manifest weapon one of your at-will powers is determined for you. If you choose Blast your at-will is Kinetic Blast, if you choose Blade your at-will is Psychic Knife.
Kinetic Blast
Kineticist Attack 1
At-Will - Psi, Implement
Standard Action
Ranged 10
Target: 1 creature or object
Attack: Dex vs Ref
Hit: 1d8 + Int damage.
Increase damage to 2d8 + Int at 21st level.
Special: Counts as a basic attack.
Special: Counts as a one-handed weapon.
Limit: You cannot have both Kinetic Blast and Psychic Blade. If you choose the option that gives you this power your other at will attack must be a different attack power.
Psychic Blade
Kineticist Attack 1
At-Will - Psi, Implement
Standard Action
Melee
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Dex vs Ref
Hit: 2d4 + Dex damage.
Increase damage to 4d4 + Dex at 21st level.
Special: Counts as a basic attack.
Special: Counts as a one-handed weapon.
Limit: You cannot have both Kinetic Blast and Psychic Blade. If you choose the option that gives you this power your other at will attack must be a different attack power.
A Psi Implements seem like they would be special focusing crystals. Probably held or worn on bracelets, necklaces or heandband. I could easily see a Psyblade using his focusing crystals as a sort of "grip" for his psychic blade.
Kineticists would probably favor Dex and Int as their primary stats. I could also see Charisma being important, and Con for melee kinericists.
*snip*
me likes.
What do you think?
To be honest, I don't think about it much. WotC will make what WotC makes. If everything that's been traditionally asian winds up with the Ki power source, meh. I'll change it if I feel like it, not if I don't. I'm pretty laid back about it.
Everyone seems quick to call out two strikers (Soulknife and Wilder/Kineticist) but why not two controllers? We currently have only one controller to choose from and lots of strikers, so balancing that out a little might be nice.
As for a psionic Leader, I would say a mix between Egoist (for healing/buffing) and Seer (for buffing/debuffing), although it would need a new name.
We currently have only one controller to choose from and lots of strikers, so balancing that out a little might be nice.
By the time we get to Psionics, we will have 2-3 more controllers already(depending on whether Primal has a controller or not), so we won't be in the same drought of controllers that we are in now.
Defender = Psiblade - though not focusing only only blade weapons, a warrior that forms weapons through the power of his mind. Basically combine the soulknife and psychic warrior into one class. If anyone is familiar with the Karach blade from Planescape, it is a weapon that only exists because of the will of the user. The blade takes on different characteristics depending on what the user wills at the time. This is something that I would love to see, and I think it fits with the defender roll really well. The psiblade could have powers that focus on changing the capabilites of their psiblade or Karach blade - I would love if they used that term - It would be really cool IMHO. Imagine a power that lets your karach do a reach attack or one that lets you slash for less damage but at range. Or a power that lets your karach take on the properties of defense. I would think more 'stances' for this type of defender, but all focused on their blade. The cool thing is that the blade is a manifestation of the mind, so no one else can use it. Now keep in mind when I say blade, I don't necessarily mean it has to be a blade. It can take on whatever shape you chose, the damage would all depend on the powers, and it wouldn't have set stats.
Controller = Mentalist - focusing on giving status effects more than AoE damage. Imagine an area psychic blast that blinds opponents, or makes causes the enemy to attack it's own allies. That is what I would like to see.
Also, they can kill you with their mind.
Leader = Battlemind - basically a class that works as a conduit and linking the party together by touching their mind. Lots of buffs, and enhancing of other characters attacks/abilites - a class that uses less rolling for their own powers and more letting other characters do something. Some people do find this fun believe it or not, the warlord has an at will like that, and some of us take that power because of our sucktitude at rolling a d20.
Striker = Elocator - I saw someone had done the dromites (love those guys) and give the Elocator a paragon path, well I say why not make it a full class. A striker that focuses on temporal shifting to do more damage. Flavour wise It think that would be pretty cool. I would expect a highly mobile warrior that darts around the battlefield by speeding up their own personal time.
That's my dream psionic team as it were.
By the time we get to Psionics, we will have 2-3 more controllers
Yeah, I'm hoping for 3 more Controllers in the PHB II:
-Arcane = Sorcerer (confirmed)
-Divine = Theurge
-Primal = Witch
Each power will have a generic effect, at the bottom it might say:
Choose one-
--increase powers range by 1
--increase powers damage by 1 die
Now, thats just a sample. Other possabilities include (but not limited to)
--increase area by 1, add "blah" keyword, make it INT +2 vs Will instead of Int vs Will, or increase duration to end of encounter.
We might also see something like this combined with a LOW power point system that allows us to modify such powers by spending a power point (daily? encounter?) like healing surges?
I'm almost guaranteeing Psions being the controller of the Psionic characters. I'm guessing that Psychic Warrior and Soulknife will be the Defender and Striker respectively. Leader's a bit hard to pick from what we had without going into the Complete Psionic classes. Maybe we'll get something new with the change... I'd like to see a Medium myself. Why the hell Psionics didn't have a Necromancy equivalent in 3.5 when contacting ghosts is one of the trademark ESP powers is beyond me...
Perhaps the encounter psionic power will works as temporal 3.5 incarnum power. (I like the totemist but...I don´t miss the other two class).
Soulblade? Perhaps the fusion of physic warrior and soulblade. I miss the psionic striker lurk, but ardent and divine mind could be "fused" ( I prefer the name "ardent").
Pehaps the new psionic power has two points reserves of power points.
I don't believe we'll see "points" anything in 4th Ed.
I think there will be no such things as augmentation nor power points in 4E. The psionic classes will be set up exactly like all the other classes. They will use the Psionic power source and will either do psychic damage for mental attacks or force damage for telekinetic attacks.
They will get 4 powers at each level when first revealed just like every other class.
I think the Telepath will be the first psionic class revealed. They will most likely be Charisma based. One of their class abilities will be natural telepathy with a VERY limited range.
Psicrystals won't come out until the Arcane familiar rules are released.
I think Askanipsion has nailed it. I don’t expect much. I think each classs will be presented with two at will powers , a variety of encounter and daily and utility powers. I am guessing, the psionic classes will do primarily psychic damage, and the telekinesis will do force damage as Askanipsion has suggested. Psionics I think will finally be fully folded into the rest of the game and will not feel tacked on. However in the process I think that any unique mechanics like power points or augmentation will be lost. I think they will keep the fluff, in terms of the names ( ectoplasm, astral construct, id insinuation, ego whip, crystal storm, etc). Well this is my two coppers so to speak.
I am guessing, the psionic classes will do primarily psychic damage, and the telekinesis will do force damage as Askanipsion has suggested.
I don't think any class is only going to do 1 or 2 types of damage anymore. They may have a primary damage type, such as psychic or force but I know some psionic powers will be doing radiant, necrotic, poison, acid, fire, lightning, thunder or cold damage.
I don't think any class is only going to do 1 or 2 types of damage anymore. They may have a primary damage type, such as psychic or force but I know some psionic powers will be doing radiant, necrotic, poison, acid, fire, lightning, thunder or cold damage.
I could see some fire-based (pyrokinesis) or lightning-based (electrokinesis) powers making the list, but too much of it will make the psion feel too much like a wizard.
Focusing mostly on psychic and force attacks will make psions/telepaths seem more unique.
I could see some fire-based (pyrokinesis) or lightning-based (electrokinesis) powers making the list, but too much of it will make the psion feel too much like a wizard.
Focusing mostly on psychic and force attacks will make psions/telepaths seem more unique.
What could be done is add some feats like 'pyrokinetic' - rather than do force or psychic damage you can do fire instead. Or, and I favour this a bit more than the feat idea, make a pyrokineticist a paragon path.
I don't think any class is only going to do 1 or 2 types of damage anymore. They may have a primary damage type, such as psychic or force but I know some psionic powers will be doing radiant, necrotic, poison, acid, fire, lightning, thunder or cold damage.
Keep in mind that many telekinesis powers could just do normal damage, after all you're picking up an object and throwing it, using tk instead of musclepower. Powers that do force damage would be like Vader's choke (no pun intended) as it is physically crushing with nothing more than telekinetic power.
It is possible that the different psions get a "pact" kind of feature called a "discipline". Those that choose telepathy would get telepathy. Those that choose telekinetic might get an At-will power to move objects....etc.
That way any psion can take any psion power but those who follow the "discipline" would be better at it.
I HIGHLY doubt that they will use power points or allow a psion to scale their powers. In 4E they want every class to follow the same guidelines. If they scale the psionic powers, it will make 4e Psionics seem like the "odd-ball" out again.
Personally I want Psionics to be treated with the same respect as Arcane and Divine. The more you make Psionics different the more chance they will be alienated.
They should have: psychic, force, fear, illusions and some elemental attacks like a pyrokinetic. They should keep summoning away from psioncs in my opinion though I know all the construct lovers will be yelling at me. :rolleye2:
The implements should be crystals that you can either wear, carry, embed in your skin as a third eye or have on a weapon.
Psionics (Knowledge): Used for psi-oriented skill checks and rituals.
Concentrate/Meditate: Absorbs most of the functionality of Concentrate and Autohypnosis. Will also be a class skill for Monks and other Ki classes.
Alternatively, these may be covered by Arcane and Endurance, respectively.
I am hoping the Telepath class gets a Class ability of natural telepathy.
It is possible that the different psions get a "pact" kind of feature called a "discipline". Those that choose telepathy would get telepathy. Those that choose telekinetic might get an At-will power to move objects....etc.
That way any psion can take any psion power but those who follow the "discipline" would be better at it.
I agree...
Personally I want Psionics to be treated with the same respect as Arcane and Divine. The more you make Psionics different the more chance they will be alienated.
again...i agree.
They should have: psychic, force, fear, illusions and some elemental attacks like a pyrokinetic. They should keep summoning away from psioncs in my opinion though I know all the construct lovers will be yelling at me. :rolleye2:
hallelujah
The implements should be crystals that you can either wear, carry, embed in your skin as a third eye or have on a weapon.
...that would be sweet
Controller- Telepath- BLOWZ UP STUF REALZ GOODZ-LIKE!
Leader- Empath- Has the ability to (class feature) give hitpoints from their own hit point amount to give to allies and can work as a health-bank
Striker- mindblade- yeah... with some minor teleportation powers.
Anyone?
Mahalo
Leader- Empath- Has the ability to (class feature) give hitpoints from their own hit point amount to give to allies and can work as a health-bank
Was I dreaming or did the Barbarian playtest article I read late last night in fact mention the Empath as Psionic Leader?
I don't seem to see anything that says anything about that, but I could be wrong, where did you think you saw this?
I really didn't see anything like that in there. There is mention of the other PHII races (which makes sense), and the other Barb build (which also makes sense), but nothing else that I noticed.
Was I dreaming or did the Barbarian playtest article I read late last night in fact mention the Empath as Psionic Leader?
No you weren't dreaming. You were half asleep though.
And there will be healer-type characters (leaders, in other words) in other power sources--for example, bards, psionic empaths, and so on.
Thank you Rich Baker.
No you weren't dreaming. You were half asleep though.
:heehee
Thanks for helpin' me out, buddy!
I knew it wasn't just all in my head. Now if only they'd believe me about.... :coolcthul ::struggles with straitjacket::
So no one else has any reactions to the idea of an Empath as the Psionic Leader??Personally, I'm pretty floored by it. I never thought I'd see something like that in D&D.
I'm sure some people will be like, "What?!" Hehe...but others can appreciate! Darnit, though...I thought I'd be done with my major waiting after PHBII reunited me with the Bard (+Sor, Drd, and divine caster). Now I'll be waiting for the Empath too!
There's no proof that any particular named class was mentioned when the word Empath was used. Much like the previous thread about "Thaumaturge" it's just another descriptive word.
And Empath sounds too much as a healer, and not enough as a leader (as opposed to perhaps Ardent). Especially when they want players wanting to play leaders rather than a support character as a healer.
There's no proof that any particular named class was mentioned when the word Empath was used. Much like the previous thread about "Thaumaturge" it's just another descriptive word.
I actually think the use of "empath" is much more lined up than "thaumaturge" was. Healing is clearly the topic of discussion and Mr. Baker is clearly giving examples of what types of characters can heal. However, you do make a good point in that it is not 100% proof. Thank you for bringing that up.
And Empath sounds too much as a healer, and not enough as a leader (as opposed to perhaps Ardent). Especially when they want players wanting to play leaders rather than a support character as a healer.
Although I see the distinction you draw between the names Empath and Ardent, I disagree that Empath is inherently unsuitable. "Empath" is more traditionally associated with psionics even outside D&D, and empathy itself, like a cleric's healing, is not lame, weak, or backseat-support-only when it is idealized heroically. Additionally, if offensive cability is a concern, there are examples of empathic attacks and abilities in D&D and in science fiction at large. I happen to like the 3e Ardent class (even though it's essentially just a psionic version of the cleric) and yet I would still prefer an original class built around the Empath name and concept.
There's no proof that any particular named class was mentioned when the word Empath was used. Much like the previous thread about "Thaumaturge" it's just another descriptive word.
And Empath sounds too much as a healer, and not enough as a leader (as opposed to perhaps Ardent). Especially when they want players wanting to play leaders rather than a support character as a healer.
The difference between the thamaturge case and this one is firstly that Rich Baker has given information regarding future classes that has been right in posts like this multiple times before. Secondly he doesn't appear to use a giant thesaurus when he posts, so he wasn't using it as a term for something else. Thirdly it was in a list of other classes that we already know are classes. And as another note, I don't believe that the term empath has previously been used as a term for a psionic leader so it would be a very odd word choice if it wasn't a new class.
Really, a leader that focuses on calming the thoughts of his allies is pretty cool. Add in a glowing longsword, and I have a Jedi with battle meditation.
What I'd like to see from this is some sort of link between party members, letting them swap basic attack bonuses, or skils. We especially need an ability that lets the party work more as one unit, fluff wise, than a bunch of separate entities. Similar to a hive mind, but less borg like.
I'd also like to see the empath have a LOT of utility powers that affect skill challenges that focus on dialogue options, such as intimidation, bluff, and diplomacy. After all, there were only two reasons why Picard kept Troi around, first is pretty up the bridge, the second is for those empathic hunches she got. :P
You know, I can't wait to play an empath, if they have anything like what I've described above, so I can use a bunch of star wars quotes:
Like when you meet someone with the shadow power source - I sense the dark side in you.
Whenever a party member runs off by themself - Control! Control! You must learn control!
Yep, gonna play a goblin empath with an insanely high dex and wisdom.
I'm pretty stoked about the idea of the empath.
Really, a leader that focuses on calming the thoughts of his allies is pretty cool. Add in a glowing longsword, and I have a Jedi with battle meditation.
What I'd like to see from this is some sort of link between party members, letting them swap basic attack bonuses, or skils. We especially need an ability that lets the party work more as one unit, fluff wise, than a bunch of separate entities. Similar to a hive mind, but less borg like.
I'd also like to see the empath have a LOT of utility powers that affect skill challenges that focus on dialogue options, such as intimidation, bluff, and diplomacy. After all, there were only two reasons why Picard kept Troi around, first is pretty up the bridge, the second is for those empathic hunches she got. :P
I love this idea. I am excited about playing such a character.
I tend to agree with people who say that we won't see a points mechanic for psionics in 4e, and also think that this is a good thing. IMO, psionics has always been the "uncomfortable graft-on" of D&D, which each setting has tried to incorporate with varying degrees of success (it is also noteworthy that the settings that don't shy away from it, like Dark Sun and Eberron, are actually quite popular for that precise reason [among others])
I was thinking this morning that the really cool thing would be to get some psionic-flavoured rituals, especially for things like Clairsentience powers. I wonder what skill would those come off of?
My own speculation for the class roles in the psionic power source:
Psion (Telepath): Controller
Psychic Warrior (however they wind up calling it): Defender
Psion (empath): Leader
For the striker, I have fallen in love with the idea of a guy who incorporates kineticist-type attacks and elocater-type mobility...
I am not sure about time travel effects: it was one of the most easily broken and abused aspects of the psionics-friendly game (both in AD&D and 3e) so I wouldn't be surprised if it was simply thrown into the discard bin along with ability damage and negative levels as "un-fun" (not to mention, an irritation and a headache for any DM stupid enough to allow it... like me :P).
Great thread guys. I am new to the forum and really glad to be able to talk about this with like-minded people.
Cheers
C
For the striker, I have fallen in love with the idea of a guy who incorporates kineticist-type attacks and elocater-type mobility...
Yeah, I think the elocator stuff could probably work here. For my part, I definitely like the idea of porting for a Psionic Striker. Hmmm...we do have the whole Eladrin and Feywild thing going on already though....
If they do add in a psionic striker, I would like to see the soul knife.
I actually was mulling over the idea (brought up on another thread) of the soul knife class concept being moved over to the Ki power source.
Both 2nd ed and 3.X, magic had spell slots and Psionics had Power Points.
But Psionics with have exactly the same number of powers as a wizard, and they will have the same Daily/Encounter/At-Will types of powers.
So, how will they distinguish a Psionic Striker from a Feylock? Psychic damage ahoy!
I look forward to seeing what they do, but I for the life of me can't imagine what.
I do wonder what mechanic will be added to distinguish psionics from magic.
Both 2nd ed and 3.X, magic had spell slots and Psionics had Power Points.
But Psionics with have exactly the same number of powers as a wizard, and they will have the same Daily/Encounter/At-Will types of powers.
So, how will they distinguish a Psionic Striker from a Feylock? Psychic damage ahoy!
I look forward to seeing what they do, but I for the life of me can't imagine what.
Re: feylock, yeah I was thinking about that for teleportation as well as psychic damage.
Someone mentioned Psionic Focus and Contact as possible mechanics that might return in one form or another.
I agree completely. There’s no need to slap the power “Ki” over a class, just because it’s got a Japanese name. Shugenja and Wu jen were much more tied to the five Elements of Rokugan, so they make much more sense as Elemental classes.
Ja.
And the idea of psicrystals as implements?.......... Well, that is [expletive] awesome.
And an idea of how a Psi Striker might function: What if it could subject itself to slides? Forced (albeit willing) movement does not provoke opportunity attacks, and the flavor of the mechanic is a lot more inline with telekinesis than teleportation. Where rogues would shift, and warlocks would teleport, the Psi Striker would simply use his telekinesis to push himself out of harms way.
I'm sure they won't release a class called "Psion", as they are breaking it up, which I think is a good thing, and the name never quite jived with me, though it was better than "Psionicist".
You don't like Psionicizer?
You don't like Psionicizer?
Dig it, or maybe Psionicker?
I'm sure they won't release a class called "Psion", as they are breaking it up, which I think is a good thing, and the name never quite jived with me, though it was better than "Psionicist".
I'm sure there will be a class called the "Psion" it will just be focused on certain disciplines in much the same way the "Wizard" is basically now an "Evoker".
I'm sure there will be a class called the "Psion"
But as the power source will be called Psionic, I doubt it, just like we don't have a class called Martia, or a Divi, or an Arcan or a Prima.
Seer- Leader (giving bonuses to allies)
Kineticist- Striker
Egoist- Defender
Shaper- ? Striker/Defender mix
Nomad- Some kind of movement, maybe another Defender/Striker
That be my hope. :D
Similarly, I hope they do no pick names that have no obvious ties to Psionics, such as the Nomad, or names that are so generic that they could be applied to any Psi class, like Telepath (a person possessing telepathy) or Keneticist (a person with telekinesis).
I am in favor of the new name selection for the Psi classes. Considering that the "Psionics" have always been a sort of second string set of D&D classes, I feel it would not be that huge of a "tradition loss" to sort of stray away from the traditional Psionic class names and concepts. And lets face it; most classes in the Expanded Psionics Handbook were Player's Handbook classes which used Psi concepts and mechanics. Psion ~ Wizard, Wielder ~ Sorcerer, Psionic Warrior (LOL @ that name) ~ Fighter, Soulknife ~ Rogue. In 4e, it is not enough to create a new class by changing the mechanics and progression of a class feature here or there; classes are unique both in flavor and play style, and as a person who is in favor of dynamic class variation, I do not mind rejecting the Psi class names of old.
I really hope they pick good names for the Psi classes. For instance, the word "Psion" simply sounds like a character who wields the Psionic power source, just like an Arcanist wields the Arcane power source.
"Psion" sounds a lot like the word "Scion" as in Descendant or Inheritor.
The Soulknife was definatly NOT a psy-rogue. It was more of a monk.
I would go as far as to say it was an equal mix of the two. The blade is obviously mechanicaly akin to the Unnarmed Strike advancement, but it seems to me that conceptually, the Soulknife is more akin to the rogue.
Regardless, I am still uncomfortable with the idea of classes that fulfill the same role across power sources being clones of one another, and that was what my point was.
Leader: WarMind (balance type psi user who has both psi blasts and psi-charged melee attacks, mental links for communication and psychic infusions/morale-boosts to enhance abilities)
personaly id prefer a warmind like (leader) class over empath or medium just the name sounds more vicsual
The two options might be something along the lines of: Empath (Role = leader) who concentrates on powers that allow him to read others' thoughts and emotions and so bolster or counter their strategies. Dominator (Role = controller) who concentrates on projecting his own will to impose it on others. (In other words reads vs. write when it comes to dealing with the minds of others). An Empath might be able to gain combat advantage and/or resist granting it by reading a foe's intent. Another power might enable an Empath to take partial damage from an ally by sharing his pain. Dominators might only achieve full mind control at high levels, but at lower levels would still be able to alter foes' perceptions, stun them, or limit their options (can't spend action points, can't spend healing surges, save ends or until end of encounter).
The multiclass feat for the telepath might be called something along the lines of Initiate of the Mind, Awakened Psyche, or whatever. It would grant training in Insight or Diplomacy as well as the ability to use Telepathy (communication) as an encounter power.
The class trained skills would probably be Psionics (new skill) plus any 3 of: Bluff, Diplomacy, History, Insight, Intimidate, Perception, Streetwise.
But Radiant (spirit, light) and Thunder (shockwave, sound) damage make sense too.
As well as Cold, Lightning, and Fire.
Even Acid, Necrotic, Poison, and certainly Weapon (like Soulknife) damage can make sense.
So feats to convert Force damage into another damage type seems like a good idea.
Maybe certain class options can pick up one or two conversions for free.
As for classes, I like the way it was divided up in Second Sight for WoD: ESP, mediumism, psychokinesis and telepathy.
Telepathy: Could be quite useful for Leaders. Canan enter the mind of allies to give split second warning of an attack, or mentally rally them, perhaps help them fight (someone is injured or unconscious he can through telepathy awaken them), enter the minds of enemies to make them run away scared, etc.
Psychokinesis: This is probably the domain of the controller since it has the most "flashy" effects, like thermokinesis, pyrokinesis, etc. But could also see work for Strikers, for the obvious power level potential here and some Defenders in that they could use the kinesis too alter their body and become more resilient, etc.
Medium: This could see work as perhaps Controllers, or Defenders. They obviously talk to spirits, leave their body, etc. Controllers could channel spirits as a means to control the battlefield and survey the battlefield, Defenders could channel spirits within them (sorta like the fluff for the Barbarian) to fight and continue to fight for a long period.
ESP: I could see quite a lot of Strikers being based off this, the idea of looking into the future, past, etc. I could see Strikers perceive an attack and avoid a hit or react more quickly to get in a strong hit, etc.
That puts my personal breakdown as:
- Egoist - Psionic Defender (Former Classes: Psion[Egoist]+Psychic Warrior)
- Shaper - Psionic Controller (Former Classes: Psion[Shaper]+Psion[Kineticist - energy types])
- Soulknife - Psionic Striker (Former Classes: Psion[Nomad]+Soulknife)
- Telepath - Psionic Leader (Former Classes: Psion[Kineticist - telekinesis]+Psion[Seer? - what little is power-appropriate]+Psion[Telepath])
"Seer" powers will almost all fall into the "Ritual" framework in 4th Edition.
And for the Soulknife (with nomad) being too similar to a Feylock, I could see more mobility, and a focus on melee combat, being enough to seriously differentiate.
Since the Soulknife's shtick wasn't very well defined in the last edition (well, it was, but it translates poorly to 4th, since it's really nothing more than Mind Blade + [pick an appropriate core class, how about Rogue?]), we favor a more "unpredictable" fighting style for him. Lots of movement-related powers (he is a striker, after all), lots of "Counter" type powers (the ranger has some examples), and some "Opportunist" type powers (ie - multiple power options that can be use in place of a basic attack for an opportunity attack).
Frito: "Seer" powers will almost all fall into the "Ritual" framework in 4th Edition.
Sounds good to me.
Class - Builds: Role (role mix depending on build); Key Ability; Primary Damage Type
- Killthought Psychic Warrior - Psiwar, Mindblade, Soulknife, "Warmind", Jedi, Fly-Teleport Nomad, Shapeshifter Egoist, Kinesis (to Slide multiple enemies away from an ally and into Close weapon range or hazards), Personal Buffer, Precog Seer, Clairvoyant Seer: Multi-Target Close-Attack Defender (Multi-Target Close-Buffing Leader or Mobile Melee Striker); Wisdom; Flashy Weapon damage (including unnarmed natural weapons, and Close-attack effects)
- Mindlock Empath - Telepath, False-Sensory-Input "Phantasmal" Illusionist, Enchanter, Mindblaster, Psychic Healer, Precog Seer, Clairvoyant Seer: Single-Target Leader (Sniper Ranged Striker or Stealth Melee Striker); Charisma; Psychic damage
- Manifest Psion - Mindmage, Energy-Blaster Kineticist, Force-Construct Shaper (that is, a Hologram "Glamer and Shadow Magic" Illusionist that manipulates temporary-but-real Force substance, Radiant light and Thunder sound to create various contructs and sensory effects), Extensive Kinesis (to Slide, lift, move, manipulate, wield in combat and throst) Precog Seer, Clairvoyant Seer: Flashy Area-Attack Controller (Area Multi-Target Leader or Sniper Ranged Striker); Intelligence; Force (with Radiant and Thunder) damage
Comments
- The three classes above cluster the essential Psi flavors. Each class is distinctive from the other two classes.
- Multiclassing can dip into the alternate Psi flavors of the other classes.
- Note, none of the Psi classes is a Striker, but all of them can optionally be built into a Striker that deals high-damage against a single target (at the expense of other options, of course, tho balanced builds are possible).
- All Psi classes should ONLY use mental abilities (Int, Wis, Cha) as the key, but should also have features, At-Wills, and feats that can substitute a mental bonus for a physical bonus. (Compare Intelligent Blademaster).
- This arrangement tries to accommodate the tastes of as many Psi players as possible.
- Any classes that uses the "Psi" power source should be called a "Psion" (formerly Psionic and Psionicist).
- All Psi classes should access Heroic feats to convert Force and Psychic damage to another damage type, such as "Pyrokinesis" converting Force or Psychic into Fire, and "Mindthrust" converting Force and Psychic into eachother. These feats should be easily available and effective. Special multiclass feats (similar to Spellscarred) that use a conversion feat as a prerequisite and Paragon Paths can develop these themes further.
- Most Seer and even some Telepath abilities become meditative Rituals that can expend Daily powers instead of money.
- People should fear the Psi power source because it tends to target the Will defense, so even the Mindblade weapon can often target Will instead of AC.
- The name "Empath" sounds soooo boring. I hope developers steer away from bland gimped toothless suboptimal Leaders. I want Leaders that are actually FUN to play and can inflict damage with the best. Here the Psi Leader, Mindlock, can smite an enemy.
- Many names have too many syllables. Telekinesis and Psychokinesis are simply Kinesis. The verb should be "kineze, kinezing" or even "kin, kinning". Iv also seen "kine, kining".
At this point, I'm thinking Soulknife could/should absorb Nomad.
That puts my personal breakdown as:
- Egoist - Psionic Defender (Former Classes: Psion[Egoist]+Psychic Warrior)
- Shaper - Psionic Controller (Former Classes: Psion[Shaper]+Psion[Kineticist - energy types])
- Soulknife - Psionic Striker (Former Classes: Psion[Nomad]+Soulknife)
- Telepath - Psionic Leader (Former Classes: Psion[Kineticist - telekinesis]+Psion[Seer? - what little is power-appropriate]+Psion[Telepath])
"Seer" powers will almost all fall into the "Ritual" framework in 4th Edition.
And for the Soulknife (with nomad) being too similar to a Feylock, I could see more mobility, and a focus on melee combat, being enough to seriously differentiate.
Since the Soulknife's shtick wasn't very well defined in the last edition (well, it was, but it translates poorly to 4th, since it's really nothing more than Mind Blade + [pick an appropriate core class, how about Rogue?]), we favor a more "unpredictable" fighting style for him. Lots of movement-related powers (he is a striker, after all), lots of "Counter" type powers (the ranger has some examples), and some "Opportunist" type powers (ie - multiple power options that can be use in place of a basic attack for an opportunity attack).
I just wanted to point out that empath is confirmed as a leader that is most likely psionic. We now return you to your regularly scheduled speculation.
Psion (Controller): Unlike most previous controllers, I think this will be more focused on single-target controlling, with nasty ranged single-target damage and status effects, and a lower prevalence and damage output with their AoE's. Also, more dominates or pseudo-dominates than anything previously introduced. AoE control will also be through providing invisibility, conceals, and so on, rather than terrain, walls, etc. Also, I'd love to see this class have a higher number of Int, Wis and Cha skill enhancements with their utilities, making them focus slightly more on out of combat abilities than previous classes.
Empath (Leader): Kind of a semi-flip with the Psion, I think this will be a leader with a higher focus on AoE's, especially debuffs. Tons of ways to buff allies, and means of redirecting effects and/or damage away from the original target would fit well. As with psions, I'd like to see more skill enhancers, communication mechanics, and similar utilities.
Psychic Warrior (Defender): A defender that quite literally compels threats to come after him, not only through some sort of mark effect, but through an abundance of pull effects, even more so than the couple that the fighter gain. Think of an at-will that lets you hit one enemy, while simultaneously pulling another one towards you, more encounter and dailies that pull the opponents towards you in a burst, and similar effects. As with all of the psychic classes, I think this one will tend to have a slightly lower damage output, but more status effects.
Soulknife or Mindblade (Striker): A particularly stealthy striker, with the largest amount of personal invisibility and total conceal effects, and some different status effects such as immobilizes, stuns, and so forth rather than DoTs and the like. This will still be the highest damage output psychic class, however, obviously.
Psion (Controller) - With kineticist and telepath as available build options from the start. Mainly psychic, force, and fire damage to various degrees, still similar to wizards. I believe the psion, and all other controllers, will be defined much more by their class features than their actual powers, which could easily be largely wizard powers with different damage types and flavor. I'd guess that the wizard will, in general, turn out to take the spot as the most varied damage-type controller.
Not that I mind, really. I'd probably do it that way if I wasn't sure on what a controller actually *is*.
Intelligence primary, Charisma secondary for telepath and Dexterity for kineticist.
Psychic Warrior (Defender) - Probably under another name, but it would still feel and play much like one from 3.5. It will probably have a minor in striker, and have similarities with the swordmage as far as the powers go. One Strength-based build and one Wisdom-based, like a paladin's Strength/Charisma divide. Possibly Constitution as secondary for both.
Soulknife (Striker) - Again, probably renamed to push it away from any similarities to ki. I'd guess it would play much like a melee version of a fey-pact warlock or artful dodger rogue depending on build. Their damage bonus will be "Psychic Strike", letting them charge a blade once per round as a minor action to deal extra damage. So, essentially, Warlock's Curse with different flavor.
Strength primary, with one Dexterity- and one Wisdom-secondary build.
(Leader) - I think they'd try to distance it from the Ardent and Divine Mind (for obvious reasons) by picking another name. Empath sounds fair enough, I guess. Maybe they'll make up a new word entirely? :P
Might use a warlord-style ability method, with Charisma primary for all, and Intelligence/Strength as secondaries, making it play a bit like a cleric with one ranged and one melee build.
In my mind (har-de-har), there's also a (small) chance we won't see a psionic leader at all in the book, and that they pull out the wilder as a ranged psionic striker instead.
I am guessing the following:
Psion (Controller):
I doubt we will see a class called Psion, as the power source is called Psionic, it would be like having a Martial class called Marti, or an Arcane class called Arca.
I don't think we'll see the psion (for the above reasons), psychic warrior (too generic a title), soulknife (most likely a paragon path or something) or the wilder (even though I've always detested the name, they might make it a paragon path or something, it also sounds primal).
So basically I don't have clue as to what the Psionic classes will be called. Of course I could be wrong and they might retain all the 3rd Ed Psionic class titles.
StD: ... or an Arcane class called Arca.
LOL!
My not-very-thought-through guesses would be:
...
(Leader) - I think they'd try to distance it from the Ardent and Divine Mind (for obvious reasons) by picking another name. Empath sounds fair enough, I guess. Maybe they'll make up a new word entirely? :P
Might use a warlord-style ability method, with Charisma primary for all, and Intelligence/Strength as secondaries, making it play a bit like a cleric with one ranged and one melee build.
In my mind (har-de-har), there's also a (small) chance we won't see a psionic leader at all in the book, and that they pull out the wilder as a ranged psionic striker instead.
But, but... Empath is the only part that's confirmed! lol :P
FWIW, I also think of Soulknife as the quintessential Psionic Striker. How could there not be a Soulknife?
I doubt we will see a class called Psion, as the power source is called Psionic, it would be like having a Martial class called Marti, or an Arcane class called Arca.
We'll see. Psion or psionicist has been with the game for an awfully long time. Perhaps it will be the latter. I personally like the name "Erudite" from Dragon, which was essentially a psion that could change out their powers each extended rest like a wizard could, but had an even more limited power selection than a psion (but the same power points progression).
Psychic Warrior I must disagree with. Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, all of these are generic names. Generic is GOOD for a basic class. Psychic Warrior is adequately descriptive for what a PW is and does. Thus, I think it will stick around.
Soulknife I think is meh, myself, but again the history is pretty long and very much a striker. Mindblade is my preferred choice of name to fill this slot, with Soulknife being a Mindblade PP.
Because I love psionics (despite their knack for causing the DM headaches), I always include them in my game. My preferred term for the master of psionic power is "mentalist", which I believe has the more appropriate, mysterious flavour that such pursuits should have in a D&D setting.
Some of the names of the specialists aren't half-bad (Telepath, Empath, Seer), but others (Kineticist, Nomad... and I mean, Egoist? WTF?) I hope they get the oblivion they so richly deserve.
Personally, I think that the Soulknife is kind of m'eh. My gaming buddies and me are constantly making fun of the Jedi-esque flavour those have, no matter how cleverly disguised they are.
...and just to be really subversive, I think that the quintessential "psychic fighter" should be the monk. "ki" and "psionic" aren't really separate power sources, if one thinks about the meanings of those terms and the cultural contexts in which they arise. They are actually the same thing...
C
I've never quite liked the terms "psion" or "psionicist"...
"Psion" is pronounced exactly the same as "Scion" which means inheritor or descendant.
"Psion" is pronounced exactly the same as "Scion" which means inheritor or descendant.
I always kinda liked the fact that psion sounded exactly like "scion" as well. It worked for me. It was much, much cooler than psionicist.
Mentalist is somewhat of overused, in my opinion. Mentalist also carries with it the connotation that the "powers" are actually a parlor trick, and not attributed to "real" psychic ability, since in the real world a mentalist is a charlatan who uses cold reading to SIMULATE mind reading. Erudite seemed rather cool. Psychic would be a more traditional variant of psion. Seer. Medium. Clairvoyant. Augur. Telepath. Psi. Go for Julian May's metapsychic, heh. There are plenty of names to choose from.
yeah i'm definitely not familiar enough with psionics
As far as the sacrifice mechanic, if you care more about seeing it in the game than about having credit for it, you might want to post it around enough for the developers to look at it. It's definitely something they might pick up on, and there is still plenty of development time left for PHBIII (where psionics are mostly likely to appear).
There is a certain feel of what sorts of developments are most likely, and you seem to have an excellent sense of it.
I think the the Controller slot will be the psion
The defender is be the the Psy warroir... but I don't think that it will be called that, i tought I read some where that all the classes would be 1 words not two.
Stiker I have no clue, I do think that Soulknife and Soulblade should eat each other and move to the Ki power. ( I could see the Ki power not having a leader roll and focusing only on the player's actions)
As for the Empath I like it, I can just see there Word ablity
Calming Word- the target spends a healing surge and regains bonus hit point equal to the number of Healing surgers you have left.
@ at 11 level you can choose to sacrafice a number of your own hit points equal to your healing surge amount and add that to the target as well
@ at 21 you may spend one of you own healing surges to heal a target to has not left.
But, but... Empath is the only part that's confirmed! lol :P
Really? Awh, phooey. Shows how much I've been paying attention. :P
I'd have hoped for a name that sounds a little less... Well. Good-aligned-ish. Oh well. Flavor is mutable, flavor is mutable, flavor is mutable...
Really? Awh, phooey. Shows how much I've been paying attention. :P
I'd have hoped for a name that sounds a little less... Well. Good-aligned-ish. Oh well. Flavor is mutable, flavor is mutable, flavor is mutable...
How is reading emotions 'good'? Think of all the shenanigans you could do. Makes great for manipulation. Think about it, if you were a politician, and could read the crowds you can tell them exactly what they want to hear. You can read the feelings of that woman in the bar and realize she's super lonely tonight, If you were robbing a bank and store, you could tell which people were about to hit the silent alarm or try to be a hero*. Heck, going along the lines of the politician, you could be the puppet master behind a ruler subtly pushing him into a war, etc, etc. There is nothing 'good' about reading emotions. Like anything, reading emotions can be a tool just like a sword - you can use it for good or for evil.
* Do you know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets other people killed. You can look it up later.
It's just one of those knee-jerk reaction things some of us get. It makes me think of people empathizing with others, which sounds goodish to me. I'm not going to argue it can't imply other things, but that's the bell it rings to me; something I'm pretty sure I'm not alone it.
I hope to god that the name "Physic Warrior" is forever gone from the pages of D&D.
That out of the way, here is my thoughts.
Telepath is a good name to replace "Psion" but whatever it is called, this class should have the telekinetic powers and have effects that come from this concept.
Physic Warriors and Soul Knife classes should be combined into one. When the Telepath would use force, this class would effect physical change, mostly on oneself or changing the weapon they wield.
The Wilder would be more like the flashing wielding of psionic power, and hopefully would be called some other name.
I would hope that the PrC classes in the EPH would be looked at. I have a Pyrokineticist right now, and think it could be a full class in this new edition. The Elocater is a good concept that can be expanded also.
Now, as for roles, I don't see the "grid" being filled out, ever. I don't look at roles as a player, to me, it is a design tool for the class.
I hope the Psi Gish is this!
This 4e class combines Psychic Warrior and Soulknife, and related concepts. It can even be called "Gish" - in honor of the Psionic Githyanki.
Class Features: The class can build optionally as a Defender (Key Charisma) or a Striker (Key Wisdom), substituting mental abilities (Wis and Cha) for the physical abilities of certain actions (such as weapon attack bonus, Acrobatic skill check, etc.). Mage Hand, Kinetic Jump (successive midair upward jumps possible).
At-Will Powers: Force Ranged Attack, Kinetic Push, Kinetic Pull, Mindblade (as an optional At-Will, not as a class feature).
Encounter Powers: Kinesis, Force Area Burst (centered on Ranged Target), Force Shield with Close Burst, Flash (Expeditious Fly Shift).
(;) This particular guy took a feat to convert Force damage into Lightning damage.)
I want a warrior class that combines Psychic Warrior and Soulknife, that functions as a Defender and a Melee Striker, and focuses on flashy personal effects, flashy weapon Close attacks, Push/Pull, and mobility.
I want a mage class that reincarnates Psion, especially Kineticist and Shaper, that functions as an Area Controller and Ranged Striker (and possibly a Ranged Leader), and focuses on full Kinesis, flashy Force effects - with Radiant and Thunder - Area and Ranged attacks, and Force constructs.
And I want a gish class, exactly like the Force Unleashed concept, that does ... well ... both. The problem is, the Gish needs to get a flashy At-Will Ranged attack from the mage and an At-Will Mindblade Close attack from the warrior. But multiclass rules dont allow this.
then the psi warrior can kill the psi metabolic and take his stuff
Along similar lines, Id like the "Telepath" as a separate class, that is BOTH a Leader AND a "Lurker" stealthy Melee Striker. Doing Psychic Healing, and Telepathic Buffing, but also Mind Control, Phantasmal Illusion (False Sensory Imput), Charm, Psionic Invisibility, and Psionic Blast.
The name "Empath" sounds like it doesnt do enough damage, and that means it sucks. It needs to both heal potently and deal damage potently. "Telepath" is a good name for a stealthy telepathic healer, as is "Mindlock" and even "Seidh" or "Seid".
I presume Nature will cover the Primal power source, and Arcana will cover the Shadow and Elemental power sources.
What if the Religion skill covered Divine, Psi, and Ki (in the sense of spirit, mind, and body-aura soul)?
What if the Dungeoneering skill covered Psi (in the sense of Far Realms, Aberrants, and Psi)?
Where do you feel Psi fits in?
I want a warrior class that combines Psychic Warrior and Soulknife, that functions as a Defender and a Melee Striker, and focuses on flashy personal effects, flashy weapon Close attacks, Push/Pull, and mobility.
I personally want the striker class to be Soulknife + Lurk, as I felt those 2 classes went well together.
I still like Ardent since ardent means Determined.
You know, I agree. With names and class concepts like Ardent and Empath, I think that the Psipower source could be made significantly less lame. In my opinion, Psion, Divine Mind, and Psionic Warrior are really lame names, and the Weilder and Soulkife are simply Psi-rebuild Rogue and Sorcerer (ie, poor conception).
I have high hopes for the Psi power source, and hope that they do not hold unnecessarily to the tradition's poor naming conventions and class concepts. There is a lot of GREAT fluff for Psi, but lame classes kind of got in the way of that for me.
a leader type. The Empath transferred health and injuries from one to
his/herself - it was very well done where he would pull damage from
an enemy and transfer that much to others as Temporary HP.
Could work with the new leader concept of aiding others. To heal, the
Empath took the damage from the injured person to himself and
had an item that allowed regen. Worked out well and could be cool in
4e.
Lerin
You know, I agree. With names and class concepts like Ardent and Empath, I think that the Psipower source could be made significantly less lame. In my opinion, Psion, Divine Mind, and Psionic Warrior are really lame names, and the Weilder and Soulkife are simply Psi-rebuild Rogue and Sorcerer (ie, poor conception).
I have high hopes for the Psi power source, and hope that they do not hold unnecessarily to the tradition's poor naming conventions and class concepts. There is a lot of GREAT fluff for Psi, but lame classes kind of got in the way of that for me.
Hey! Soulknife is not a poor concept! It might not have been implemented well in the past, but the core of the concept, a character who creates weapons with their mind, can be really great. Of course I think that if they do bring the soulknife back it should be a ki class, but that is hardly relevent to whether it is a good idea.
One interesting idea that I've had for a soulknife would be for their encounters and dailies to reshape their weapon for a period of time after they use the ability.
Hey! Soulknife is not a poor concept! It might not have been implemented well in the past, but the core of the concept, a character who creates weapons with their mind, can be really great. Of course I think that if they do bring the soulknife back it should be a ki class, but that is hardly relevent to whether it is a good idea.
One interesting idea that I've had for a soulknife would be for their encounters and dailies to reshape their weapon for a period of time after they use the ability.
Meh, I would really almost rather have a "Shaper" type class that created objects, creatures, and sometimes weapons out of psychic waves. Other than the ability to create a weapon with his mind, the Soulknife is a Rogue to me.
EDIT: WOAH! I found another name I want to add to my list of "Good Psi Class and Names" !
- Ardent- Psi Defender
- Empath- Psi Leader
- Shaper- Psi Controller
Meh, I would really almost rather have a "Shaper" type class that created objects, creatures, and sometimes weapons out of psychic waves. Other than the ability to create a weapon with his mind, the Soulknife is a Rogue to me.
EDIT: WOAH! I found another name I want to add to my list of "Good Psi Class and Names" !
- Ardent- Psi Defender
- Empath- Psi Leader
- Shaper- Psi Controller
The idea of the shaper was the top aspect of psionics in 3.5 that I didn't like... I hope it doesn't come back. The whole ectoplasm concept always felt wrong to me. Telekinesis, mind control and mind reading, and mind-over-body effects that allow healing, even dream-related stuff and (gulp) time travel... all these seem more appropriate than "ghostbusters-type" ectoplasm floating about.
I still hold that a good list of classes for psionics in 4e would be
Empath (leader)
Telepath/Kineticist (controller)
Monk (defender)
and a combination Elocater/Pyrokineticist for the striker.
Of course, I know that the Monk will be in the ki power source (and probably a striker, too), but I like the concept of the Monk as developing a storehouse of physical power through mental discipline - kind of like a real-life shaolin monk - that makes him tough, resilient, and capable of amazing martial arts feats --- woozoo! :D
C
Meh, I would really almost rather have a "Shaper" type class that created objects, creatures, and sometimes weapons out of psychic waves. Other than the ability to create a weapon with his mind, the Soulknife is a Rogue to me.
EDIT: WOAH! I found another name I want to add to my list of "Good Psi Class and Names" !
- Ardent- Psi Defender
- Empath- Psi Leader
- Shaper- Psi Controller
A shaper is actually sort of what I was thinking about, only with the limitations that he can't forge things bigger than himself and everything he forms has to be constantly touching him. Although as I think about it more, my "vision" of the soulknife is really something of a combination of the traditional soulknife with incarnum. And it would make for a visually interesting melee ki-controller. Oh well I'm getting slightly off topic here now. I should probably take any further ideas to the ki speculation thread.
The idea of the shaper was the top aspect of psionics in 3.5 that I didn't like... I hope it doesn't come back. The whole ectoplasm concept always felt wrong to me. Telekinesis, mind control and mind reading, and mind-over-body effects that allow healing, even dream-related stuff and (gulp) time travel... all these seem more appropriate than "ghostbusters-type" ectoplasm floating about.
I guess I follow you here. Its just... Telepath and Keneticist are such bad names! Arn't all Psi classes Telepaths in some way? Keneticist is just weird to say...
I guess I follow you here. Its just... Telepath and Keneticist are such bad names! Arn't all Psi classes Telepaths in some way? Keneticist is just weird to say...
Not really telepaths are just those that read minds. A pyrokitetic, as an example, doesn't neccesaily have the ability to read minds. Just as a wizard doesn't neccesarily have the ability to use magic missle. Also it should be kineticist, and kineticist is simply a generalization of thing like pyrokitetic and telekinetic. *shrugs*
Also I know I said I'd stop talking about the soulknife here, but I finally figured out my inspiration for my ideas on the soulknife. Green Lantern. Thinkk of a soulknife like that and see how "lame" it becomes.:P
EDIT: WOAH! I found another name I want to add to my list of "Good Psi Class and Names" !
- Ardent- Psi Defender
- Empath- Psi Leader
- Shaper- Psi Controller
I totally agree; those are all solid names as opposed to flimsy titles like, IMO:
-Psion
-Psychic Warrior
-Wilder
...Don't even get me started on the travesty of a mockery of a sham that is the Lurk…
I totally agree; those are all solid names as opposed to flimsy titles like, IMO:
-Psion
-Psychic Warrior
-Wilder
...Don't even get me started on the travesty of a mockery of a sham that is the Lurk…
Thank you Steely_Dan! I knew there would be something we agreed on! Haha.
I can see all the psionic classes getting a cantrip-like set of at-will powers representing minor psychic abilities, such as a mage hand-like telekinetic power or telepathic communication.
If "Psion" or "Psionicist" is too generic a name for the psionic controller class, a few possible alternate names might include "Mentalist" or "Esper".
I definitely like Empath
and Ardent as names. Psion I don't think is so bad, but Psionicist I think is too cumbersome. Mentalist...possibly. Esper, though I'm not sure it's the right choice, has a good level of feel or flavor to it that I imagine/hope they'll go for. They may avoid names that are very genre-specific like Scanner or Enchanter and instead opt for something specifically flavorful but flexible like Mindbender...except that that's a double name. So maybe back to something like Mentalist. :D This class would probably have a telepathic build (INT/CHA) focusing on psychic damage and conditions, and a kinetic build (INT/CON) focusing on force/fire/lightning damage and moving enemies around.
Interesting way to combine those two.
I can see all the psionic classes getting a cantrip-like set of at-will powers representing minor psychic abilities, such as a mage hand-like telekinetic power or telepathic communication.
Very cool idea! I don't know about specifics like for all psionic classes or what the "cantrips" would be, but still a cool idea to consider!
Anyways, the concept is similar to the variant Psion in Complete Psionic (The Erudite). This concept also revolves around the idea of Channel Divinity from Divine classes, in that it uses similar themes and changes them to fit the idea of Psionics.
So each Psionic class (or Psi class, as it may be) would have two more at-will powers than every other class. i.e. A Dwarf would have four at-will powers and a Human would have five. We know that WotC isn't above this, as the Druid does something similar.
At the beginning of each encounter, all of the at-will powers are available to the Psionic Character (hereafter called the PC). When the PC uses his first at-will power, that power is "locked" in his mind until he has a short rest. Most PCs can only have two powers locked in their minds, but human PCs can stand to have three (in short, similar to how most classes begin encounters).
Summary: A major factor in Psionic classes of the past has been that they are far more flexible at the beginning of a fight than at the end, and this would be a great way to express that while still keeping those classes simple, fun, and useful in an encounter.
Obviously, there is a ton more design space around this idea, but I think this is a good place to start. Thoughts?
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Huh, I was really thinking Ranged Striker when it came to Kineticist. Obvious minor in Conrol, perhaps the other way around.
Or it could be very controllerish with throwing stuff around the battle field and smooshing foes against the floor/walls.
You start all combats with psionic focus. As long as you have psionic focus, your attacks deal +1d6 damage. Most daily attack powers expend psionic focus. Psionic focus cannot normally be regained until a short rest, although some utility powers or action point related feats or powers might augment this.
Its simple and easy to understand. It encourages the use of daily powers as finishing moves, giving you an additional tactical choice- do I try to end the fight now with a big hit, or do I wait so I can retain my bonus damage?
I generally see Psychic Warriors as having many combat abilities reliant on Clairsentience. The ability to see a few seconds in the future, and to read an opponents moves might be what their marking ability will be based on.
Yes, this is exactly what I want, so much.
Or it could be very controllerish with throwing stuff around the battle field and smooshing foes against the floor/walls.
Like I said, I think it was clearly a minor in control, or perhaps controller, maybe with a minor in striker.
PP will allow powers to be augmented (probably not at-will powers but maybe), or you can use PP to reuse expended powers (maybe just daily powers, but maybe also encounter powers). This is something very psionic, and very different from what is already there.
4e seems to be all about creating the look and feel of a class without creating mechanical subsystems. Whatever psionic abilities are created to make psionics *feel* psionic, they'll be within the regular class ability / power system.
Something like the Psionic Focus from 3.X edition.
Basically, the concept I have is that a Psionic character can use a move action to gain Psychic focus.
Encounter powers would have a small bonus if used while you have psychic focus.
Daily powers would have a big bonus/kicker is you expend your psychic focus when you use them.