I have high hopes for psionics actually being unique in 4e. In 3e, psionics was essentially magic with a different, alternate resource management structure. In 4e resource management has been (mostly) standardized. This means that psionics will have to be thematically different in a way it was not during 3e.
I think the "Enchanter" (i.e. the guy who controls enemies) class of 4E that's been mentioned by the devs will be psionic (i.e. the Telepath). Also, any psionic warrior class will most likely be akin to the egoist, using mental control of their bodies to increase their physical abilities, with maybe a touch of soulknife. Other than that, there's the plenty of room for a class focused on telekinesis and one which creates matter using psionic powers. All these ideas would give psionic classes their own unique feel.
Enchanter would make sense. Not too many dominator classes. I really hope the soulknife is it's own class or at least a build or something for the psychic warrior. It's hard to imagine them not having it though.
Reality altering could include alterations of space and density, making two characters further apart from each other or an area with higher gravity than normal.
That's exactly what I don't want to see. That kind of stuff isn't psychic in nature. Psionic phenomenon doesn't warp reality. Only magic does that.
Stuff Psychic powers should do:
Telepathy (including mental attacks and domination)
Telekinesis (and you can do a LOT of fun stuff with Telekinesis, possibly even building a class solely based on it)
Clairvoyance (including dowsing, remote viewing, psychometry, and precognition, all likely utility powers)
Teleportation is not psychic phenomenon.
Pyrokinesis is not psychic phenomenon.
Any kind of metacreativity is not psychic phenomenon.
I have no idea where Soul Knives came from in general. That's not psychic phenomenon.
Psychometabolism was really pushing it conceptually some places, but most of it was definitely not psychic phenomenon.
This is going to sound really stupid, but I'm going to say it, and at least I know exactly what I mean:
I wish they would make Psionics more realistic.
There we go, I said it. No, I don't really believe in psychic phenomenon in the real world. That has nothing to do with it.
I at least hope they make it like back in 3.5 where it was most definitely possible to ignore all those powers that were stupid and made no sense and instead go with only things that were genuine psychic phenomenon...
Stuff Psychic powers should do:
Telepathy (including mental attacks and domination)
Telekinesis (and you can do a LOT of fun stuff with Telekinesis, possibly even building a class solely based on it)
Clairvoyance (including dowsing, remote viewing, psychometry, and precognition, all likely utility powers)
Teleportation is not psychic phenomenon.
Pyrokinesis is not psychic phenomenon.
Any kind of metacreativity is not psychic phenomenon.
I have no idea where Soul Knives came from in general. That's not psychic phenomenon.
Psychometabolism was really pushing it conceptually some places, but most of it was definitely not psychic phenomenon.
This is going to sound really stupid, but I'm going to say it, and at least I know exactly what I mean:
I wish they would make Psionics more realistic.
There we go, I said it. No, I don't really believe in psychic phenomenon in the real world. That has nothing to do with it.
I at least hope they make it like back in 3.5 where it was most definitely possible to ignore all those powers that were stupid and made no sense and instead go with only things that were genuine psychic phenomenon...
You seem to confuse psychic with psionic. When WotC uses the word psionic, they mean using the mind, or shear will, to produce an effect that is not normal. So this means they can basically do anything, including produce magic effects, though that would suck. meaning if one uses their mnd alone to create fire....that is psionic. Pyrokinesis through other means is a different story, so no it isn't necessarily psionic. Teleporting is not psionic, unless one uses their mind alone to produce that effect. If an abnormal effect is produced by the mind alone or by simply willing it to happen with nothing else to enforce it, it is essentially psionic.
The word psychic is supposed to be used to describe a telepathic or a clairvoyant being, though these ideas are included in the word psionic, because it is a much broader term that can be used to describe any effect produced solely by thought and will. The mindblade made by the soulknife is made by willing it into existence,as said in the description, making it psionic.
That's exactly what I don't want to see. That kind of stuff isn't psychic in nature. Psionic phenomenon doesn't warp reality. Only magic does that.
Sure it can. "Psionics" is just a new-age name for "magic" after all.
Stuff Psychic powers should do:
Telepathy (including mental attacks and domination)
Telekinesis (and you can do a LOT of fun stuff with Telekinesis, possibly even building a class solely based on it)
Clairvoyance (including dowsing, remote viewing, psychometry, and precognition, all likely utility powers)
Agreed.
Teleportation is not psychic phenomenon.
Pyrokinesis is not psychic phenomenon.
Any kind of metacreativity is not psychic phenomenon.
I have no idea where Soul Knives came from in general. That's not psychic phenomenon.
Psychometabolism was really pushing it conceptually some places, but most of it was definitely not psychic phenomenon.
Teleportation i dont know about but it kind of boggles my mind to read statement "pyrokinesis is not psychic phenomenon" since it is classic psionics.
Soulknives came from Psylocke, as far as i can tell. Id deffinately like to see them since they are incredibly unique flavor-wise compared to what we have so far.
Up there with pyrokinesis, psychometabolism is also farly standard psi material, as much of the traditional practices of eastern meditation that get branded "new age" deal with using the mind over body. The very phrase "mind over body" is a psychic cliche.
The only conceivable difference that I can see is one of thematics. But if blatant mind-control through mind power isn't pure sci-fi versus high fantasy's mind-control through spells, then I am interested in hearing it.
I've always treated psionics as a lesser known aspect of wizardry. You have learned the secrets of existence and have channeled it inward rather than outward. Your ability to alter reality was set first upon yourself, and as such you utilize foci like crystals to harmonize your soul with reality or seeing stones to focus your multi-planar perception. Crystals, orbs, seeing stones, etc these are all classical elements of wizardry, and so I just assumed that psionics was D&D's way of giving the less "Gandalfian" magics a chance at the limelight.
Of course if you look at the way a lot of people treat psionics this isn't the case. The way a lot of people seem to treat psionics you'd just as soon assume that pyro, professor X, and jean gray were all prime examples of psionicists. If that's the case then I'm pretty sure that we are in the wrong church (right pew, but wrong church). Sci-fi heroes are different than High fantasy heroes; the difference some times isn't all that great, but its enough, imo, that we all should, for the most part, be able to discriminate.
MTF
Of course if you look at the way a lot of people treat psionics this isn't the case. The way a lot of people seem to treat psionics you'd just as soon assume that pyro, professor X, and jean gray were all prime examples of psionicists. If that's the case then I'm pretty sure that we are in the wrong church (right pew, but wrong church). Sci-fi heroes are different than High fantasy heroes; the difference some times isn't all that great, but its enough, imo, that we all should, for the most part, be able to discriminate.
Maybe, but those Marvel superheroes live in the same world as Doctor Strange (wizard), Ghost Rider (infernal pact), and the mighty Thor (a god). So maybe those line between high fantasy and sci-fi that seem so clear to you aren't as much so to others.
Some people like the idea that a hero can tap into extraordinary abilities without recourse to "magic". You may like prefer the idea that psions have just found another way to tap into the arcane forces of the universe, others may prefer the idea that wizards have just found anther way to tap into the inner power of the human mind. Two sides of the same coin.
I wish they would make Psionics more realistic.
I'm right there with you, C_C. Since psionics won't get to stand out by the method it did in 3e (by being more balanced and fun than the Vancian casting system), it'll have to go to a much deeper thematic extreme and carve out its own niche of specific ability-types (now that it isn't forced to play keep-up with the 8-classes-in-1 Wizard). TP, TK, and Clairvoyance are good domain to lay claim to, especially since we don't have a proper Dominator class yet.
I would like to see the Psychic Warrior return as the afficionado of turning mental effects inward for self-buffing and healing. The 'mind over matter' type who walk on fire, bend spears pressed against their throats, and close their own wounds by sheer force of will.
(If we're going all-out with psychic content, I wouldn't mind seeing the Sangehirn come back (perhaps as a psionic Leader, or perhaps as an alternate-spec PW who turns the buffs/healing outward as well), but that's probably just because I'm still sad I didn't get to play one in 3e.)
I wonder if things such as the mind-fights from previous editions will return in any form. I never got a chance to use them in-game, but always found it a fun idea.
I am really hoping precog gets a lot of use by Leaders. I could see that working extremely well, with the Leader being able to predict enemy tactics, or when a ally is going to be attacked, or when a spot is going to open in the enemy lines, etc.
Of course if you look at the way a lot of people treat psionics this isn't the case. The way a lot of people seem to treat psionics you'd just as soon assume that pyro, professor X, and jean gray were all prime examples of psionicists. If that's the case then I'm pretty sure that we are in the wrong church (right pew, but wrong church). Sci-fi heroes are different than High fantasy heroes; the difference some times isn't all that great, but its enough, imo, that we all should, for the most part, be able to discriminate.
And what exactly is the fundamental difference between a "sci-fi hero" and a "high fantasy hero" other than superficial differences? After all, sci-fi is just a subgenre of fantasty to begin with. Its "high fantasy" with a coat of paint.
And what exactly is the fundamental difference between a "sci-fi hero" and a "high fantasy hero" other than superficial differences? After all, sci-fi is just a subgenre of fantasty to begin with. Its "high fantasy" with a coat of paint.
Or other way around. Especially when you consider sci-fi as a genre has been more substantial of a genre up too basically when Tolkien made fantasy big. Hell my library for instance lists all fantasy under the category of sci-fi.
Or other way around. Especially when you consider sci-fi as a genre has been more substantial of a genre up too basically when Tolkien made fantasy big. Hell my library for instance lists all fantasy under the category of sci-fi.
There's no way that sci-fi is a "more substantial genre" than fantasy. People have been telling fairy tales and fables since forever.
"Science fiction differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation)."
-Wikipedia
The "fantastical" elements of sci-fi generally involves nothing more than an extension of our modern world's technological development and research into physics. Meanwhile, fantasy's "fantastical" elements involve stuff that most would consider impossible no matter how far either of those fields progresses. As for something like Star Wars (with the Force), I'd argue that it is a member of both genres.
Or other way around. Especially when you consider sci-fi as a genre has been more substantial of a genre up too basically when Tolkien made fantasy big. Hell my library for instance lists all fantasy under the category of sci-fi.
Not to mention that even before Tolkien, mixing things that some consider "high fantasy" and "sci-fi" was incredibly common with fiction writers of puip novels, comics and radio. You had lots of people like Howard crossing lines (that werent even drawn until much later) between what some folks consider different genres all the time. In reality, Fantasy vs. Sci-fi is a very arbitrary and artificial distinction.
The "fantastical" elements of sci-fi generally involves nothing more than an extension of our modern world's technological development and research into physics. Meanwhile, fantasy's "fantastical" elements involve stuff that most would consider impossible no matter how far either of those fields progresses. As for something like Star Wars (with the force), I'd argue that it is a member of both genres.
The only difference is that one type of story uses X to explain why it has fantastical elements and another story uses explaination Y. To use the Jean Grey and Prof X example, in a sci-fi story their powers would explained through some psuedo-science while in a hard "fantasy" story it would be through mysticism and magic. In both cases the characters would be the same, their powers would be the same and ulitimately the sort of stories that could be told about them would be the same.
Or other way around. Especially when you consider sci-fi as a genre has been more substantial of a genre up too basically when Tolkien made fantasy big. Hell my library for instance lists all fantasy under the category of sci-fi.
You're both wrong.:P
Both Fantacy and Science Fiction are subsets of Fiction, and are very closely related. One author put it best- It's science fiction if there's a spaceship on the cover.
Consider Anne McCaffery's Pern books. Would you consider, say, White Dragon to be Science Fiction or Fantasy? How about Dragon's Dawn, in the same series?
You're both wrong.:P
Both Fantacy and Science Fiction are subsets of Fiction, and are very closely related. One author put it best- It's science fiction if there's a spaceship on the cover.
Consider Anne McCaffery's Pern books. Would you consider, say, White Dragon to be Science Fiction or Fantasy? How about Dragon's Dawn, in the same series?
Its all just fantasy. They all have fantastical elements that dont exist in the real world. Sci-fi is just a sub-genre that uses a more specific explaination for its fantasy.
Furthermore, fantasy fits under the umbrella of "fiction", which also includes stories that are grounded in reality and lack fantastical elements.
Its all just fantasy. They all have fantastical elements that dont exist in the real world. Sci-fi is just a sub-genre that uses a more specific explaination for its fantasy.
Furthermore, fantasy fits under the umbrella of "fiction", which also includes stories that are grounded in reality and lack fantastical elements.
I believe the proper term that encompasses both science fiction and fantasy but does not encompass all other genres is speculative fiction.
Also Am I the only one who thinks that the whole psychometabolism discipline should be absorbed by the Ki power source? Most of the mind over body stuff seems to fit better in there to my mind, maybe give Ki the Soulknife too since it was never really all that mentalish to my mind.
Give the Psionic power source mental damage, domination effects, telepathy, TK and yes ever PK (since it is a pretty classic Psychic ability).
Give the self buffing and stuff to the Ki guys instead.
If you were to standardize the resource management, the effect hierarchy, and the time/use requirements, then I would be honestly very interested in anyone's ideas on how "psionics" (putting something into effect through force of will) differs from magic (putting something into effect through force of not will? Intellect maybe?)
The only conceivable difference that I can see is one of thematics. But if blatant mind-control through mind power isn't pure sci-fi versus high fantasy's mind-control through spells, then I am interested in hearing it.
I've always treated psionics as a lesser known aspect of wizardry. You have learned the secrets of existence and have channeled it inward rather than outward. Your ability to alter reality was set first upon yourself, and as such you utilize foci like crystals to harmonize your soul with reality or seeing stones to focus your multi-planar perception. Crystals, orbs, seeing stones, etc these are all classical elements of wizardry, and so I just assumed that psionics was D&D's way of giving the less "Gandalfian" magics a chance at the limelight.
Of course if you look at the way a lot of people treat psionics this isn't the case. The way a lot of people seem to treat psionics you'd just as soon assume that pyro, professor X, and jean gray were all prime examples of psionicists. If that's the case then I'm pretty sure that we are in the wrong church (right pew, but wrong church). Sci-fi heroes are different than High fantasy heroes; the difference some times isn't all that great, but its enough, imo, that we all should, for the most part, be able to discriminate.
MTF
Arcane magic does not use force of will alone. It uses arcane secrets and lore as well as incantation and somantic components. A psionic power uses pure thought. Very plain difference. It is not "magic" per se. It is pure alteration through force of will. No incantation, ritual, study or anything else involved. A wixard can not cast a spell if he does not prepare it or study it and a sorceror can cast because he has innate magically abilities and has to learn to control it through certain movements. A psion needs none of these things and does not need to prepare it. He only learns that through the use of his mind it can become stronger.
I believe the proper term that encompasses both science fiction and fantasy but does not encompass all other genres is speculative fiction.
This is my understanding as well.
I would imagine that the psionic class breakdown will be along the lines of the four roles:
- Controller: Psion
- Defender: Psychic Warrior (though hopefull with a name change)
- Leader: Empath
- Striker: Soulknife
This is my understanding as well.
I would imagine that the psionic class breakdown will be along the lines of the four roles:
- Controller: Psion
- Defender: Psychic Warrior (though hopefull with a name change)
- Leader: Empath
- Striker: Soulknife
-Defender: SwordPsion?
-Defender: SwordPsion?
How about..
Psyblade
Mindslicer
Psyduck.
-Defender: SwordPsion?
Mindblade
Warmind
Warmind sounds better. Psyduck is the best I've heard.
Psion...fighter.....fion?....psighter???
Arcane magic does not use force of will alone. It uses arcane secrets and lore as well as incantation and somantic components. A psionic power uses pure thought. Very plain difference. It is not "magic" per se. It is pure alteration through force of will. No incantation, ritual, study or anything else involved. A wixard can not cast a spell if he does not prepare it or study it and a sorceror can cast because he has innate magically abilities and has to learn to control it through certain movements. A psion needs none of these things and does not need to prepare it. He only learns that through the use of his mind it can become stronger.
In which aspect the psionics are different than the sorcerer? Both have an innate power (that produced very similar effects in 3.X) that must be practiced to be useful. Not every peasant can use their minds to shape their world around them.
Psionics and magic means the same thing: the ability to do the impossible, but having the backup of science (when I speak of "science" in the Middle Ages, I mean what they considered it - homebrewing potions, prayers, etc.). The main difference is that "magic" is used in middle-ages fantasy, and "psionic" is used in actual-world fantasy ("sci-fi").
I liked psions in the earlier edition because of the mechanical differences. I wonder if Wizards will make psionics more thematically different, or even mechanically diferent.
I find it unlikely that they will make it mechanically different since the theme of this edition seems to be homogeny at least as far as mechanics go. I am sure though that they will be thematically different since the theme and feel of each power source is really the only way to tell them apart.
In which aspect the psionics are different than the sorcerer? Both have an innate power (that produced very similar effects in 3.X) that must be practiced to be useful. Not every peasant can use their minds to shape their world around them.
Psionics and magic means the same thing: the ability to do the impossible, but having the backup of science (when I speak of "science" in the Middle Ages, I mean what they considered it - homebrewing potions, prayers, etc.). The main difference is that "magic" is used in middle-ages fantasy, and "psionic" is used in actual-world fantasy ("sci-fi").
I liked psions in the earlier edition because of the mechanical differences. I wonder if Wizards will make psionics more thematically different, or even mechanically diferent.
Magic comes from a sorcerors body, not his mind. He does have to will it to happen, but he also has to learn somantic components(proper ritualistic movement) to control it, because it still won't work properly unless he does. The psion needs no movement and does not have to be born with the power. It comes from his mind, not his magically imbued body(like a sorceror). Psionics is a mind power source, where magic is derived the world around you and the arcane energies either found externally(wizards) or internally(sorcerors) that also requires an effort of will to control. There are very distinct differences. I agree, both can be described as magical, but psionic is more descript and specific. Just like divine and arcane are different, so is psionic power. Psi is energy or effects that come into existance through force of will, can only be done by the strongest of minds. A wizard has a strong mind, but still relies on arcane secrets to usurp the arcane energies of the world and the sorceror must learn to draw the arcane energies that are born into his body since his birth. The psion studies his mind and is not born with innate energy, but an innately strong will, or later unlocked potential, that allows him to bring the power he wants into creation.
All that being said, the differences don't change the fact that psionic power and magic can potentially produce the exact same effects without a doubt. lol
Biggest differences: Arcane source: magical energy found in the body or the world around you
Divine: Magical ability granted by a higher power, ideal, faith or nature
Psionic:Magical ability derived from the mind and shear force of will
You seem to confuse psychic with psionic.
No, I'm well aware of the difference, and I hate it. It's just one of those things that I dislike. I don't like psionic. I like psychic. I just hope that they can make their psionics the way they did back in 3.5 where I can use them as psychic instead by having enough psychic powers that I can ignore the psionic powers...
...it kind of boggles my mind to read statement "pyrokinesis is not psychic phenomenon" since it is classic psionics.
Exactly. It's classic "psionic" (aka, mind magic, I say condescendingly). It's not genuine psychic phenomenon, not anymore than hydrokinesis or cryokinesis or aerokinsis or photokinesis. Pyrokinesis is just more popular a trope. It's completely a work of fiction and has no basis in genuine paranormal phenomenon. Having the "-kinesis" suffix doesn't mean anything...
psychometabolism is also farly standard psi material, as much of the traditional practices of eastern meditation that get branded "new age" deal with using the mind over body. The very phrase "mind over body" is a psychic cliche.
Yes, to a point. That point is crossed when we can change our skin color like a chameleon, make ourselves incorporeal, create duplicates of ourselves, produce venom, grow claws, physically heal rapidly, and polymorph. That's not psychic. That's "psionic" (I say condescendingly... Not to you, but to the word "psionic").
I would be honestly very interested in anyone's ideas on how "psionics" differs from magic.
For purposes of answering the spirit of your question, I'm going to pretend you said "psychic" instead of "psionic."
The thematic difference is that psychic power is inherent to everybody. Everybody has it. It's just that most don't know how to use it. Producing magic effects, however, isn't something everybody can do, just like everybody can't "just read." It's something you learn to do, or in the case of the sorcerer, it's something biological you have as a result of an interesting genetic heritage, just like some people happen to be tall or don't have any allergies or have perfect eyesight.
The 'mind over matter' type who walk on fire,
Acceptable.
bend spears pressed against their throats,
Pushing it.
and close their own wounds by sheer force of will.
No.
Also Am I the only one who thinks that the whole psychometabolism discipline should be absorbed by the Ki power source? Most of the mind over body stuff seems to fit better in there to my mind
I'd actually be totally cool with that...
Give the Psionic power source mental damage, domination effects, telepathy, TK and yes ever PK (since it is a pretty classic Psychic ability).
No, pyrokinsis is a classic "psionic" ability, not a psychic one... *sigh* I can accept pyrokinsis as a paragon path, I guess... Though since D&D doesn't ever claim to have "psychic" as opposed to "psionic" it's really a moot point for me to worry about it...
In which aspect the psionics are different than the sorcerer?
Everybody can be psychic. Not everybody can be a sorcerer. Sorcerers have power solely by virtue of their genetics. Their blood is magical. You can't just go out and get magical blood infused into yourself... Though that would be cool... And actually a pretty cool character concept for the mad scientist type, especially if I can use that Fleshwarper prestige class (Lords of Madness, 3.5) and work with grafts too...
Not every peasant can use their minds to shape their world around them.
Yes, they can. Or at least they all have the mental potential to be able to. They just don't know how.
EDIT:
To make another comparison, learning to use magic is like learning to use a sword. You're using a tool. Learning to use psychic abilities is like learning to use your fists. You're using you own body to its greatest potential instead of relying on tools.
Being a sorcerer is just like being born holding a sword... Though probably less painful for your mother... :P
Also Am I the only one who thinks that the whole psychometabolism discipline should be absorbed by the Ki power source? Most of the mind over body stuff seems to fit better in there to my mindI'd actually be totally cool with that...
Why is it ok that we ascribe things to the ki power source that have nothing to do with real life study of "ki" but we can't use "psionics" in the psionic power source because it isnt "genuine" psychic phenomenon? To be clear im talking about:
That point is crossed when we can change our skin color like a chameleon, make ourselves incorporeal, create duplicates of ourselves, produce venom, grow claws, physically heal rapidly, and polymorph. That's not psychic. That's "psionic" (I say condescendingly... Not to you, but to the word "psionic").
This is no more "ki" in real life as it is "psychic". The main difference is that it at least has a tradition of being psionic.
Why is it ok that we ascribe things to the ki power source that have nothing to do with real life study of "ki" but we can't use "psionics" in the psionic power source because it isnt "genuine" psychic phenomenon?
Because I don't know nearly as much about and am not nearly as passionate about ki as I am about psychic phenomenon. :P
(aka, I didn't know that it isn't part of genuine ki/qi/chi the same way most people don't know that pyrokinesis isn't part of genuine psychic phenomenon studies)
But you make a good point.
EDIT:
And with your edit, I must make one too.
This is no more "ki" in real life as it is "psychic". The main difference is that it at least has a tradition of being psionic.
Ah, yes, that part that you quoted, I was aware of that, yes. All that stuff is just silly, and I didn't mean to lump that over with ki/qi/chi. What I meant to be given over to ki/qi/chi was the more mundane stuff like ignoring pain, like the example somebody gave of walking over hot coals and all that jazz.
Because I don't know nearly as much about and am not nearly as passionate about ki as I am about psychic phenomenon. :P
(aka, I didn't know that it isn't part of genuine ki/qi/chi the same way most people don't know that pyrokinesis isn't part of genuine psychic phenomenon studies)
But you make a good point.
Part of the issue is that there is a very shaky distinction between "psychic" and "ki" in real life in the first place. Like i was pointing out about the modern study of eastern meditation, most of what is labeled "psychic" in contemporary study is the same phenomenon associated with eastern concepts of ki/prana/qi/ect. If you look at eastern mysticism, you find cases of every aspect of modern psychic abilities, only with different names. They are going to need some way to really distinguish psionics, ki and magic from each other and im afraid that means looking at popular culture (psychokinesis! ;)).
Perhaps psionics will be the ability to influence the world around you using your will and ki will be the ability to channel that will inward to make yourself superhuman. Both the psion and the monk are capable of knocking down a tree but the psion does it without touching it, the monk hardens the skin of his fists until they are stronger then iron and punches the tree down. Both would require a great deal of discipline and focus but they would still have very different flavour.
Even let ki's flavour be the ability to move yourself or harden yourself against damage as it's secondary effect. That could be a blast.
What then should the flavour be for psionics? And would you lean towards the 3.x idea of having psionic effects having visible effects and/or leaving behind ectoplasm or would you make them completely invisible and so that they leave no trace since they are purely in the realm of thought.
I would love to see a return of psychic combat, similar to the Mindscapes and Hyperconcious products released by Malhavok Press for 3.x, the idea of battling with psionic avatars excites me more than I care to explain.
RE: psionics vs psychic. I think that if the devs are creative there is alot you can do with telekinesis, telepathy and claravoyance, but im just worried that a full 80+ individual powers per class based on "realistic" applications of these things is a huge stretch. I think they are going to need some stephen king, x-men and scanners in there to keep things interesting and have enough variation for a handful of classes.
I would love to see a return of psychic combat, similar to the Mindscapes and Hyperconcious products released by Malhavok Press for 3.x, the idea of battling with psionic avatars excites me more than I care to explain.
I like the idea in theory but i have a hard time imagining something like mindscape combat working in 4E. I tried it in 3E with my all-psionic campaign, but it only added layers of complexity to a combat system that was already bogged down.
I agree that an interesting way to handle ki would be to have it effect the user's body primarily, but i worry about it appearing too much like the more powerful martial stuff. Martial already has regeneration, damage reduction and temporary hit point abilities, for example.
QUOTE]
Ki regeneration could be part of their healing surges, having a personal "lay on hands" ability. Like in 3. phbII, ki will probably have projection abilities, like wreathing your body in an aura of damaging ki and having a ki strike that stuns and does some other type of damage.
I also think that ki powers will include a lot of projecting ki for ranged attacks that use str or con. A punch that hits a target 15 feet away is not uncommon for ki. Ki could be used to ground yourself, making you harder to push or pull, and grappling would be made more effective.
Ki has everything to do with the discipline of the mind. That said, I think this could give way to will being a target for those who focus ki into their attacks. Not too many attacks that use str, con, or dex target will. They could have a lot of secondary effects targeting will, too.
i dont know of they should put all their eggs in one basket by making most ki powers target Will. Besides, i dont feel that simply targeting Will more than other classes is enough of a mechanical distinction to differentiate ki from other sources, especially psionics (which will likely target Will left and right). The power source really needs a theme, the same way that primal's is "transformation".
i dont know of they should put all their eggs in one basket by making most ki powers target Will. Besides, i dont feel that simply targeting Will more than other classes is enough of a mechanical distinction to differentiate ki from other sources, especially psionics (which will likely target Will left and right). The power source really needs a theme, the same way that primal's is "transformation".
I did a poor job expressing what I meant, I guess. I meant simply that will would be a target more often for ki users than martial.
I could definately imagine many Will targeting powers, especially considering the monk had such abilities last edition. The main thing i cant pin down is a true theme for the power source that makes it unique.
I'm going to guess, that dazing, stunning and loss of actions for the opposition in general will have a lot to do with it. Maybe use ki to keep an enemy from uing it's more powerful attacks every so often.
I'm going to guess, that dazing, stunning and loss of actions for the opposition in general will have a lot to do with it. Maybe use ki to keep an enemy from uing it's more powerful attacks every so often.
The rogue and fighter both have powers that do all those things and more though. Ki needs something else as a unique gimmic to make it different and fun to play for a different reason.
I don't know how psionics will be made unique. Its overlap with regular magic is enormous both in fantasy literature and in D&D history.
I mean, look at the fey pact warlock. Lets see what it can do:
Teleport
Control people's minds
That's... an awful lot of a psion right there, from a lot of books. Add in telekinesis, and you've got Ill Met in the Arena.
Any Psychic Combat, therefore, would actually be a fight on the plane of Dreams.
Wizards require formula and incantation (etc), but what exactly are they doing? Yes, I know its magic, so no "scientific" explanation is ever going to be canon, but what exactly happens when a wizard chants the right words is an interesting question.
So when a wizard intones his words of power and a sorcerer channels his innate magical energies and a psion uses his will power to do something, what thing is causing the actual effect to occur? If the only difference between wizard, sorceror, and psion is how they access that which effects magical change (and there is no actual difference in what is being done otherwise), then why would psion require a different type/descriptor of ability from the wizard and sorcerer?
Side Note:
Not all fiction is fantasy. All sci-fi is fantasy. All high fantasy is fantasy. Not all fantasy is high fantasy. Not all fantasy is sci-fi. Some fantasy is horror. Some fantasy is alternative history/steam punk. Now obviously there is overlap amongst the four sub-categories of fantasy, and this is often the case because most fans of one sub-category are also fans of the others. Its really hard to find someone who thinks aliens make bad characters/villains but monster movies rock hard. So you will see a blending, but there are certain tropes and certain characteristics that are "exclusive" to one sub-category, and this is how one should make determinations about what is appropriate to a given genre.
Professor X and Jean Gray are the result of mutation. Does anyone here think that mutation is a valid reason for powers in D&D (a high fantasy game)? Certainly any ability which magic and psionics share (which is pretty much everything) can be themed to be appropriate to either high fantasy or sci-fi, so the question is whether or not something is already themed correctly not whether or not the ability itself is right for the particular story (that is a separate issue).
MTF
High Level Utility: Read Mind
That isn't an arcan utility I've seen. Maybe it will be in Psionics.
So when a wizard intones his words of power and a sorcerer channels his innate magical energies and a psion uses his will power to do something, what thing is causing the actual effect to occur? If the only difference between wizard, sorceror, and psion is how they access that which effects magical change (and there is no actual difference in what is being done otherwise), then why would psion require a different type/descriptor of ability from the wizard and sorcerer?
True reason- because D&D is a game about fandom, and psionics has fans. WOTC wants to make those fans happy.
They just have a challenge this time: previously those fans have been happy with rethemed magic and a different resource management mechanic. 4e mostly standardizes resource management (mostly, there are some differences, and some build choices can augment your resource management noticeably). This means that rethemed magic will really, really look like rethemed magic. Additionally, psionics will be presented this time as a companion to regular D&D classes, including regular D&D magic, not as an alternative system for it. That means it has to complement instead of replace.
So this time, for the first time, WOTC is going to have to come up with ways to make psionics genuinely different in effect, instead of just in flavor. I can think of ways to do this, I'm just not sure I can think of ways to do this that won't alienate at least some fans of psionics.
I have an idea. What if Psionics had an ability that the weaker you opponent was the more powerful you powers against him,
Thats pretty much how it works already. ;) Against minions, your powers totally rock but against higher level solos they just arent as impressive.
Thats pretty much how it works already. ;) Against minions, your powers totally rock but against higher level solos they just arent as impressive.
Well I'm new to DnD so I wouldn't know how they worked in 3e or 3.5e. But I guess that could be the distinguishing factor in Psionic Classes, the weaker your opponent (and the more you weaken him) the stronger your power over them.
Well I'm new to DnD so I wouldn't know how they worked in 3e or 3.5e. But I guess that could be the distinguishing factor in Psionic Classes, the weaker your opponent (and the more you weaken him) the stronger your power over them.
Well think about how things work in any edition. If you are fighting something weak, you are more likely to over come its Will defense. If its stronger, the defense is going to be harder to surmount. Having powers be less potent against stronger foes is sort of built into the system.
Mind Switch and Soul Jar created the exact same effect and any time wisdom (the ability to differentiate self from environment and the source of will power) hit 0 charisma (force of personality and the source of influence over other things in a metaphysical manner) and vice versa. So if mind and soul are inextricably bound, then how can psionic and ki powers differ? I'm pretty sure they couldn't under the old system.
Can anyone say whether or not 4E has clarified the mind-soul distinction?
Side Note: Monks in real life have the so called "Candle Punch" (where you don't actually touch the flame of the candle, but the flame is snuffed out), so not every thing "ki" can/is supposedly able to do is purely inward.
MTF
Can anyone say whether or not 4E has clarified the mind-soul distinction?
I seem to recall something about undead, where mortals have a mind, soul, and "anima", undead have just the anima, or Mind and anima.
MTF
I think it was in the World and Monsters preview book, but I can't fint it at the moment. However, IIRC, then it should be covered in OPEN GRAVE next month.
Teleportation is not psychic phenomenon.
Really? Popular fiction from the last half century seems to disagree with you. The navigators of Dune used psychic capabilities to virtually teleport space ships. Jumper (as much as I hate the movie) features humans with the psychic capability of teleportation. Just because its not the flavor of "psychic" you enjoy doesn't mean it is not a commonly accepted flavor of psychic.
Pyrokinesis is not psychic phenomenon.
This is even more wildly accepted as a psychic phenomenon then psychoportation. Quite aside from the countless literary examples of this ability, I'm pretty sure there are some quack x-file believers (I don't mean x-files as in the show, but rather the sort of thing the show was about) that think that pyrokinesis is actually possible...
Any kind of metacreativity is not psychic phenomenon.
I will be honest, I cant think of an example of this one off the top of my head (except for the one example I will bring up bellow for soul-knives), but it is no more or less "realistic" they any other form of psychic capability.
I have no idea where Soul Knives came from in general. That's not psychic phenomenon.
I am guessing they came from Psylock. A psychic character with the ability to alter the flow and transfer or energy in a manner that allowed her to create blades (or really, in her case, any weapon) out of nothing more then belief (an example of mind over matter).
Psychometabolism was really pushing it conceptually some places, but most of it was definitely not psychic phenomenon.
Please. Psychometabolism has more right to be listed as a psychic phenomenon then telepathy or telekinesis. At least Psychometabolism has a real world example to defend its case: yoga.
This is going to sound really stupid, but I'm going to say it, and at least I know exactly what I mean:
I wish they would make Psionics more realistic.
There we go, I said it. No, I don't really believe in psychic phenomenon in the real world. That has nothing to do with it.
It does sound really stupid. It sounds really stupid because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Realistically speaking, if a human were ever able to move anything with its mind, pyrokinesis is more believable then telekinesis. All one needs to do to create heat or flame is to agitate a few molecules. The effort of actually moving an object would be a lot more drastic. And there is nothing intrinsically more believable about the ability to read another persons mind, or effect their mind, then there is the ability to bend time and space with the mind (allowing a person to teleport themselves through force of will).
I at least hope they make it like back in 3.5 where it was most definitely possible to ignore all those powers that were stupid and made no sense and instead go with only things that were genuine psychic phenomenon...
There is no such thing as genuine psychic phenomenon. And none of your examples were any more genuine then any other. There is only the flavor of psychic phenomenon you personally like, and the flavor you don't. Personally, I hope they have both, because I personally like them all.
Really? Popular fiction from the last half century seems to disagree with you. The navigators of Dune virtually used psychic capabilities to teleport space ships.
Minor nitpick:
They didn't actually teleport the ship psychically. It's just that the jump drive was so dangerous and unpredictable, you had to be able to see all possible futures and select the right one to pilot it safely.
Minor nitpick:
They didn't actually teleport the ship psychically. It's just that the jump drive was so dangerous and unpredictable, you had to be able to see all possible futures and select the right one to pilot it safely.
That's why I used the word virtually. Perhaps I should have placed virtually before teleport instead of psychic though. I will go fix it for you.
The idea is that all living things have an animus, which is he basic force that animates (<--- root word of "animus") an object, including undead and constructs, or a living, sentient or otherwise.
Actually animus is a latin word that can mean soul, so animate can't be the root word of animus.
:P
I am pretty sure the root of both words is Anim... but I don't know Latin, so what do I know.
In terms of root word, its animus, animi. Latin for mind or soul.
You're right in that animate's root as in root syllable/sound is anim.
Which comes from the latin animus.
Any kind of metacreativity is not psychic phenomenon.
I will be honest, I cant think of an example of this one off the top of my head (except for the one example I will bring up bellow for soul-knives), but it is no more or less "realistic" they any other form of psychic capability.
There is a series of Sci-Fi/Psionic-ish novels I read years ago but can't remember the name of. (The Golden Torc?) But they had psionic powers divided by discipline, and Metacreativity as it was used in 3rd edition was pretty much ripped straight from the novels.
There is a series of Sci-Fi/Psionic-ish novels I read years ago but can't remember the name of. (The Golden Torc?) But they had psionic powers divided by discipline, and Metacreativity as it was used in 3rd edition was pretty much ripped straight from the novels.
Metacreativity as it was used in 3rd edition was ripped straight out of 2nd edition. So, the real question is, what year were these novels released? Because, if it was after the publication of the 2nd edition AD&D psionics handbook, then the book ripped off D&D and not the other way around.
Really? Popular fiction from the last half century seems to disagree with you.
No, it doesn'. That's exactly it. You'll only find teleporters in "popular fiction." You will not find any accounts of them in the real world, because it's not genuine psychic phenomenon. It's a complete fabrication with no basis in reality, and somebody at some point decided to say it had something to do with being psychic, and somehow that stuck.
Jumper (as much as I hate the movie) features humans with the psychic capability of teleportation.
I never saw anything in that movie that referenced psychic powers. Far as I could tell, it was basically like X-Men, which never claims their teleporters as psychics of any kind either.
Just because its not the flavor of "psychic" you enjoy doesn't mean it is not a commonly accepted flavor of psychic.
Here's the problem with your argument: I love teleporters. I enjoy them more than telepaths and seers. I think they're a lot of fun. All I'm saying is that it has no reason to have anything to do with psychic powers. Liking them or not liking them has nothing to do with it.
This is even more wildly accepted as a psychic phenomenon then psychoportation.
And just as wrong. Pyrokinesis, again, is purely a work of fiction with no equivalent phenomenon in the real world, just like psychoportation.
Quite aside from the countless literary examples of this ability, I'm pretty sure there are some quack x-file believers (I don't mean x-files as in the show, but rather the sort of thing the show was about) that think that pyrokinesis is actually possible...
No, nobody does. That's exactly the point. Telekinesis, Clairvoyance, Telepathy; you'll find all of these phenomenon (whether real or false) accounted for in the real world with people who believe in, investigate, and refute them. Nobody believes in pyrokinesis because it's completely fictitious with no basis in reality.
I will be honest, I cant think of an example of this one off the top of my head (except for the one example I will bring up bellow for soul-knives), but it is no more or less "realistic" they any other form of psychic capability.
You apparently don't understand what I mean by "realistic." I don't mean I believe it's actually real. What I mean is that if it is, the form it would take would be the forms that we have real world accounts of. There's never been any account of somebody making a knife out of energy. There are, however, countless accounts of premonition (almost certainly false, but if you're looking at that, you're missing my point).
Please. Psychometabolism has more right to be listed as a psychic phenomenon then telepathy or telekinesis. At least Psychometabolism has a real world example to defend its case: yoga.
I don't think you understood what exactly I was specifically talking about. A lot of psychometabolism powers were perfectly fine, with Biofeedback, Thicken Skin, and Vigor being great examples. The problem lies with the stuff like Ectoplasmic Form, Fission, Form of Doom, Fusion, and Metamorphosis. I certainly think Psychometabolism deserves some kind of place, likely with the Psychic Warrior or other Defender.
if a human were ever able to move anything with its mind, pyrokinesis is more believable then telekinesis. All one needs to do to create heat or flame is to agitate a few molecules. The effort of actually moving an object would be a lot more drastic.
That makes absolutely zero logical sense. Tell me, you can pick up a book with your hand, yes? Well then according to your logic, it should be effortless by comparison for you to set that book on fire with you hand. Have fun trying that.
And there is nothing intrinsically more believable about the ability to read another persons mind, or effect their mind, then there is the ability to bend time and space with the mind (allowing a person to teleport themselves through force of will).
In my opinion, yes, there most certainly is something a lot more intrinsically believable about telepathy than about teleportation. However, that's really not the point at all, so I won't stress this matter...
There is no such thing as genuine psychic phenomenon.
I didn't say there was. I don't believe in them. :P
There is only the flavor of psychic phenomenon you personally like, and the flavor you don't. Personally, I hope they have both, because I personally like them all.
Ironically, this part is actually the one that made me somewhat reconsider. If other people like all this stuff that is completely ridiculous with no basis in reality, then it's really just their fun, and I don't have much right so say, "you shouldn't have fun the way you want to with this class because I disagree with it." I guess so long as it's still possible to play a psychic the way I want to, I'll be fine, but I suppose I'll never be able to help that it makes me cringe when people play something like a cryokinetecists and then think that's just as realistically valid as a telepath...
This is basically an "umbrella term" that include quite of bit of psychic abilities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychokinesis#Umbrella_term
Many of these has been stated as having no "no basis in reality". Generally I'd say that argument can be applied to every single instance of psychic ability EVER. None, as of yet, have been proved to exist.
I certainly hope that is correct for everyone here's sake. Otherwise differentiating psionics from magic won't be as big a problem as differentiating it from ki abilities. Thematically magic and psionics are pretty far apart (I think everyone here can agree to this), but psionics and ki abilities are not as clear cut in differences and their roles in class creation in previous editions were not all that dissimilar.
MTF
Dreambreath Dracolich Lore (DC30): A formless psychic realm exists that is (...) known as the Dream.
How do you think this will relate to Psionics?
So... In answer to the serious question as to how they could differentiate psionics from ki abilities: D&D can/will present a "real" (for the purposes of the game) difference between mind, will, and soul?
I certainly hope that is correct for everyone here's sake. Otherwise differentiating psionics from magic won't be as big a problem as differentiating it from ki abilities. Thematically magic and psionics are pretty far apart (I think everyone here can agree to this), but psionics and ki abilities are not as clear cut in differences and their roles in class creation in previous editions were not all that dissimilar.
MTF
Take the psionic classes and then look at the monk(3e) ........do you see the difference?
I mean, look at the way they differentiated Arcane from Divine, which is probably the toughest task of them all (the arcane/divine divide is completely alien to historical magic, and the only real distinctions between them from 3E were erased by the new 4E paradigms). That is accomplished quite handily by the different in implements (Divine casters have Holy Symbols, Arcane casters mostly have a variety of objects that must be held), the Divine classes' unique "Channel Divinity" power that can be expanded based on which gods the character worships, the distinct pacts of the Warlock (that really should be a broader concept for Arcane...), Divine's greater focus on weapon-based attacks (you hit and heal/buff at the same time) and the general greater amount of armor that Divine classes have compared even to Martial classes. The two power sources are not really differentiated very well at all on the theoretical level, but at the practical level they are completely different.
Psionics can be made unique through similar processes. For example, I think they will probably do something to minimize the importance of implements for psionic characters, or even remove them entirely. Other than the stereotypical fortuneteller's crystal ball, psychic powers have never really needed any kind of focus, since it is all done with the mind... It would be different from Ki since that one is most likely going to be built around Weapon/Unarmed attack powers, and I imagine that Psionics would be more like Arcane and not rely on weapon attacks. I imagine that some kind of "psionic focus" property from 3.5E Psionics stuff might be retained, perhaps as a way of boosting many kinds of power so long as you have focus or expend it or something (kind of like how Barbarian powers are boosted in a rage). There are so many things they could do, I am not worried.
No, it doesn'. That's exactly it. You'll only find teleporters in "popular fiction." You will not find any accounts of them in the real world, because it's not genuine psychic phenomenon. It's a complete fabrication with no basis in reality, and somebody at some point decided to say it had something to do with being psychic, and somehow that stuck.
Um... what? Seriously. This is your argument. Really!? Come on! You can find weird accounts of people supposedly going to sleep in one place and waking up very far from where they went to sleep. Maybe that's because they psychoported in their sleep? Who knows. Because, to be honest, there is no such thing as a genuine psychic phenomenon. They are all a load of crock, and you can find crockpots who claim that anything is possible.
I never saw anything in that movie that referenced psychic powers. Far as I could tell, it was basically like X-Men, which never claims their teleporters as psychics of any kind either.
The characters in jumper could teleport from place to place by creating a wormhole through nothing more then sheer force of will. By thinking about it. With their mind. As far as I am concerned, that is psychoportation.
Here's the problem with your argument: I love teleporters. I enjoy them more than telepaths and seers. I think they're a lot of fun. All I'm saying is that it has no reason to have anything to do with psychic powers. Liking them or not liking them has nothing to do with it.
You might like teleporters, but you obviously don't like psychic teleporters. There is no reason for teleporters NOT to have anything to do with psychic powers.
No, nobody does. That's exactly the point. Telekinesis, Clairvoyance, Telepathy; you'll find all of these phenomenon (whether real or false) accounted for in the real world with people who believe in, investigate, and refute them. Nobody believes in pyrokinesis because it's completely fictitious with no basis in reality.
Really? Nobody believes in pyrokinesis? That's funny... wikipedia disagrees with you. So do I. I remember plenty of shows on the discovery network about weird science, internal combustion, strange fires, and theories about how they were actually caused by someone who is/was a pyrokinetic. I think that its a load of bull... but its just as credible as stories and accounts of telekinesis or clairvoyance.
You apparently don't understand what I mean by "realistic." I don't mean I believe it's actually real. What I mean is that if it is, the form it would take would be the forms that we have real world accounts of. There's never been any account of somebody making a knife out of energy. There are, however, countless accounts of premonition (almost certainly false, but if you're looking at that, you're missing my point).
There are accounts of more fantastic examples of psychic abilities as well. And, all these accounts are fairly hokey and bologna.
That makes absolutely zero logical sense. Tell me, you can pick up a book with your hand, yes? Well then according to your logic, it should be effortless by comparison for you to set that book on fire with you hand. Have fun trying that.
I am pretty sure that it actually does take less energy transfer to set a book on fire than it does to lift it. However, humans can not produce the type of energy necessary with their body. Take a lighter next to the book however, and you require less motion to light the book on fire then you do to pick it up.
In any case, its sort of irrelevant either way. When you are talking about moving something without physically touching it, you are talking about moving its molecules with your mind. If you can move the molecules with your mind, you should be able to agitate them (as agitating them is little more then moving them). If you can agitate them, you can create a fire with your mind.
In my opinion, yes, there most certainly is something a lot more intrinsically believable about telepathy than about teleportation. However, that's really not the point at all, so I won't stress this matter...
So you find one more believable then the other. I don't.
Ironically, this part is actually the one that made me somewhat reconsider. If other people like all this stuff that is completely ridiculous with no basis in reality, then it's really just their fun, and I don't have much right so say, "you shouldn't have fun the way you want to with this class because I disagree with it." I guess so long as it's still possible to play a psychic the way I want to, I'll be fine, but I suppose I'll never be able to help that it makes me cringe when people play something like a cryokinetecists and then think that's just as realistically valid as a telepath...
It is just as valid as a telepath. And, if its what a player enjoys playing, there is no reason that the player should not play that concept.
Let's see... IIRC my physics class...
To heat 1 cc of water 1 degree C takes 1 calorie of heat. 0.2390 cal = 1 joule, so call it about 4-5 joules to heat a cc of water 1 degree C.
That cc of water weighs 1 gram. To lift 1 gram 1 m takes about .01 joules.
That means, for the energy to heat 1 gram of water 1 degree C, you could lift 400-500 grams 1 meter.
[/physics]
It's more likely they'll go back to using ectoplasm and crystals, since as much as many people didn't like those being associated with Psionics, they do give Psionics a flavour that's unique from Arcane.
Psionic, on the other hand, is defined (in my mind) as 'everything magic can do, but done via the power of the mind to exert one's will over reality'. This is the territory of the crazyfun 'just like a Wizard' things. Summoning, teleporting, shapeshifting, resurrection, etcetera. Pro: very diverse and flexible. Con: doesn't differentiate well from magic, particularly when both are using the same resource management system.
Now, I see the logic behind the obvious conclusion of limiting 4e psionics to classically 'psychic' phenomena. We need a flavour/dynamic niche, and psychic stuff comes with one. Trouble is, I'm not sure this is the right solution, at least not entirely, simply because psionics in D&D have always been more than spoon-bending and guessing people's birthdays. For better or for worse, D&D psionics have a plethora of abilities that mirror those of magic-users, and to trade one definition for another is, in my opinion, to betray D&D's heritage and those who've come to love it.
I wish, for the game designers' sake, that the correct path were as simple as turning the complex 'psionics' into the simple (even rudimentary) 'psychics', but the real solution will take a lot more work. They'll have to look at the panoply of abilities available to psionics and choose which of those abilities are most characteristic of the psionic idiom they'd created. I think the psychic phenomena will easily fall into that realm, but I think other abilities, like the manifestation of astral constructs and the self-enhancing abilities of the Psychic Warrior, will as well.
Anyway, that's what I think of it. Yes, there's a particular 'flavour' of psychic abilities in mainstream fiction, but D&D isn't mainstream fiction. Not entirely, anyway. It has its own styles, its traditions, and I'd like to see psionics as I came to know them in earlier editions be one of the traditions that lives on. If not, I'll be sad, but I'll probably live. After all, it's pretty easy to reflavour 4e stuff, and the feral Druid already makes a great Psychic Warrior, come to it.
EDIT: Ninja'd by a frelling kobold. :P For the record, I :inlove: ectoplasm and crystals.
Psychokinesis debate?
Let's see... IIRC my physics class...
To heat 1 cc of water 1 degree C takes 1 calorie of heat. 0.2390 cal = 1 joule, so call it about 4-5 joules to heat a cc of water 1 degree C.
That cc of water weighs 1 gram. To lift 1 gram 1 m takes about .01 joules.
That means, for the energy to heat 1 gram of water 1 degree C, you could lift 400-500 grams 1 meter.
[/physics]
Platinum black + gaseous hydrogen = possible fire at room temperature.
Setting something on fire can involve more than just heating something up, such as releasing the potential energy that is already their or catalyzing a reaction that normally doesn't have enough energy to happen naturally.
Anyway,
Anyway,
Eastern monks in real life are able to submerge themselves in waterfalls when its below freezing out, absorb impacts that would regularly shatter bones, and control large swaths of the normally autonomic functions (like heart beat and breathing). That doesn't even touch on what is supposedly done mythologically (again like the candle punch that doesn't even hit things; its like, well, telekineis).
The arcane divine split is almost entirely based on source and the theme that that source implies. Arcane relies on study and is indicative of man's dominance over nature. Divine relies on (well duh) divine beings and is indicative of man's surrender to the other (the divine wholeness, the implicate order, cosmic unity, perfection, whatever you want to call it; holy literally means outside or separate and has come to be associated with purity and goodness).
But psionics and ki, if will and soul are not sufficiently differentiated (as they are not in previous editions), would mean that psionics and ki were not different enough to warrant separation. And for those of you who think that the monk and the psi-warrior were all that different in role they occupied in the party (pseudo-mystical, high movement rate, 3/4 BAB light fighter) or that thematically psionics and ki are all that different (meditation/focusing the will results in advanced control over the mind/body/spirit: greater movement, body function control, planar union/interaction (abundant step, perfect body), and mind control (one's own: tongue of the sun and moon or that ability that gives +2 to will saves, forget what it's called), then I would appreciate it if you would clue me in to what you are looking at.
MTF
Eastern monks in real life are able to submerge themselves in waterfalls when its below freezing out, absorb impacts that would regularly shatter bones, and control large swaths of the normally autonomic functions (like heart beat and breathing). That doesn't even touch on what is supposedly done mythologically (again like the candle punch that doesn't even hit things; its like, well, telekineis).
What?
Submerge in freezing waterfalls- you can go in ice water if you train your body to do it. Its not just crazy eastern monks. Its also like, norwegians.
As far as absorbing impacts that would regularly shatter bones, uh, what?
Controlling your heart beat and breathing aren't actually that hard. I control my breathing already. Calming exercises can lower your heart rate, if for some reason you wanted a low heart rate.
And the candle punch? If you mean this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOOSnPSBU38
then I can already do it. Sometimes it takes me a few tries though. I'm not like this crazy guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzvz1BeJNjQ&feature=related
but its not telekinesis or ki projection or any of that nonsense. Its creating a stiff breeze by moving your fist really fast in a straight line.
This same argument applies to the psychic/psionic debate that keeps popping up here, real world phenomena have no place in D&D anyway.
I personally like the crystals and ectoplasm coming along with psionic, those were fun and did serve to seperate the psion from a wizard. Perhaps the 4E psion will take the crystals further then before, we already have attacks (3.5) that involved manifesting a volley of psionically created, razor sharp shards of crystal to shred your foes. Maybe more of that, and some nice domination and mind reading. Give me some TK and I am a happy guy.
I would rather see teleporting remain the purview of rituals anyway though the idea of astral travel, leaving your body behind to go exploring, could make for some really fun situations.
What?
Submerge in freezing waterfalls- you can go in ice water if you train your body to do it. Its not just crazy eastern monks. Its also like, norwegians.
As far as absorbing impacts that would regularly shatter bones, uh, what?
Controlling your heart beat and breathing aren't actually that hard. I control my breathing already. Calming exercises can lower your heart rate, if for some reason you wanted a low heart rate.
And the candle punch? If you mean this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOOSnPSBU38
then I can already do it. Sometimes it takes me a few tries though. I'm not like this crazy guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzvz1BeJNjQ&feature=related
but its not telekinesis or ki projection or any of that nonsense. Its creating a stiff breeze by moving your fist really fast in a straight line.
I think you missed his point, in focusing on the smallest details he included (crazy eastern monk part)
what he was trying to say, or as I understand it, is that through intense spiritual/mental development and training, regardless of whatever your specific tradition is or what you happen to call your energy force, one can achieve a very high degree of spiritual/bodily/universal control. Whether it be withstanding bone shattering impacts, and yes Shaolin monks regularily train to do this and have been shown on many occasions doing this.
now im sure you can punch a candle out, big feat there, who cares, he was pointing out that in eastern mythology, martial arts masters, spiritual masters, or even students have been regularily depicted performing feats far beyond the ken of a regular person. Is this psionics? or is it Ki? Or is it magic? either way it comes from intense personal focus.
The arcane divine split is almost entirely based on source and the theme that that source implies. Arcane relies on study and is indicative of man's dominance over nature. Divine relies on (well duh) divine beings and is indicative of man's surrender to the other (the divine wholeness, the implicate order, cosmic unity, perfection, whatever you want to call it; holy literally means outside or separate and has come to be associated with purity and goodness).
As I mentioned in my last post above, this is not really accurate if you are talking about the historical practice of magic, rather than modern D&Disms.
All of the western magical traditions of Europe are rooted in either Judeo-Christian mysticism or pagan religious practices, with a bit of dabbling of Eastern magical traditions (which are entirely rooted in things like traditional Hindu practices, Taoism, and other eastern religions). Many western magical traditions are rooted in the Kabbalah, and many later works, like the Goetica, are built around the idea of invoking angels and demons. The fact that, just like science, philosophy, and literature, magic was studied and developed primarily by monks and clergymen for hundreds of years makes it really hard to meaningfully separate science, magic, and religion until nearly the modern day.
As far as absorbing impacts that would regularly shatter bones, uh, what?
When you stress/damage a bone it rebuilds itself stronger than it was before. Repeatedly doing this causes bones be because far stronger than normal. Someone that is properly conditioned can take blows that would normally shatter bones or even outright kill a normal person.
When you stress/damage a bone it rebuilds itself stronger than it was before. Repeatedly doing this causes bones be because far stronger than normal. Someone that is properly conditioned can take blows that would normally shatter bones or even outright kill a normal person.
Seconded from experience and by science.
That's exactly why some people kick banana trees to toughen their shins.As I mentioned in my last post above, this is not really accurate if you are talking about the historical practice of magic, rather than modern D&Disms.
All of the western magical traditions of Europe are rooted in either Judeo-Christian mysticism or pagan religious practices, with a bit of dabbling of Eastern magical traditions (which are entirely rooted in things like traditional Hindu practices, Taoism, and other eastern religions). Many western magical traditions are rooted in the Kabbalah, and many later works, like the Goetica, are built around the idea of invoking angels and demons. The fact that, just like science, philosophy, and literature, magic was studied and developed primarily by monks and clergymen for hundreds of years makes it really hard to meaningfully separate science, magic, and religion until nearly the modern day.
But the thematic/structural differences are staring right at you, even in what you wrote. "Magic" involved man binding or summoning otherwordly powers to do his bidding. Priests "wielded" power not of their own accord, but rather by having faith in the power of their deity. I am fully aware of the history of "magic" on such a rudimentary scale. I certainly wouldn't want to bunch up etruscan, egyptian, and celtic practices together, but you would be right to state that they all had "magical" practices that did not rely on jehovah God, but were nonetheless a semi-divine practice.
The problem with making this sort of generalization stick is that arguing that true magic is anything other than miraculous makes no sense. One of the only ways to separate cosmic power from equally cosmic power is by theme. So, sure, "magic" in much of what early man conceived of as such relied upon spirits or some other such divine agency. But what makes this anything other than a function of conception? Early man presumed that man alone did not possess the ability to perform miracles (divine, spiritual, or otherwise), so in order to perform magic or miracles divine agency had to be involved. But just how productive a line of discourse would this be for D&D?
"Energy is energy, whether produced by science or sorcery." (Owen/Puck From Gargoyles.) And I would add to that produced by divinity. Reality alteration by will (whether divine, mortal, outsider, spiritual, psionic, what-have-you) isn't going to amount to much of a difference (beyond overall power of the source), unless you start considering the practices and ideologies (what becomes "theme") of those who wield such abilities.
Would a demonologist really consider himself to be beholden unto a divine source or does he consider himself to be a master invoker/binder of demons?
MTF
That said, there are plenty of classical examples of traveling via force of will, and it's really an offshoot of dreamwalking, astral travel, "vanishing" etc.