So, what new races do you think the PHB3 will give us? Here's some ideas.
Dopplegangers: Would complete the full set of Eberron races, if warforged and kalashtar are the races featured in the Eberron guide. These (like shifters) are fairly setting-neutral, and might also make a good fit with Psionics.
Githzerai/Githyanki: The gith are one of the more popular psionic-flavored races. Githzerai also fit well as monks, which would increase their chances of inclusion if the Ki source is featured in PHB3.
Psionic Races: Of the psionic races in 3E, elans and dromites seem to be the most frequently cited. One of these might end up appearing.
Shadar-Kai: If the Shadow source is featured in PHB3, they might make an appearance, though it's hard to say whether the upcoming Shadar-Kai article might affect their chances.
Centaurs: Might actually work as a playable race, except for the issue of navigating stairs.
Aquatic/Flying Races: If they can work out the logistical issues of this kind of race (such as how to make flight balanced at all levels, or making an aquatic race amphibious so they don't get stuck in a narrow niche), one of these might be an unique addition to the racial setup.
Centaurs: Might actually work as a playable race, except for the issue of navigating stairs.
I would love to see these guys (especially going up stairs). :D
I think PHB3 will be a long time in coming and I bet they'll come out with a psionic supplement prior, so that'll probably limit the amount of psionic races (unless they try to make the PHB3 be the psionic supplement).
I think PHB3 will be a long time in coming and I bet they'll come out with a psionic supplement prior, so that'll probably limit the amount of psionic races (unless they try to make the PHB3 be the psionic supplement).
Actually, everything we've seen so far about how 4e is being rolled out contradicts your bet.
Seeing as how PHB2 is the primal supplement, and there seems to be no interest this go-around for doing supplements based solely on abstract concepts such as power sources or alignments or whatnot, PHB3 or 4 most likely will be the supplement in which the main presentation of psionics is done.
Other races... Hmm... Thri-Keen perhaps (unless left for Dark Sun). I would like to see Doppelgangers get a full write-up. Shadar-Kai could get one too to go along with Shadow Power source.
phb3
shadar-kai (shadow)
dark one (shadow)
doppelganger (psionics)
githyanki (psionics)
githzerai (ki)
phb4
goblin
hobgoblin
bugbear
orc
kobold
PHBIII: Psychic, Shadow and Ki Heroes (It's a tough call between Ki and Elemental though.)
Races:
Shadar-Kai (I'm practically certain of this one)
Githyanki
Githzerai
Goblin (Just wishful thinking on my part)
Kalashtar (I think the Doppelganger will see a write-up in the Eberron PG and they'll save Kalashtar untill they've brought out the Psychic Classes)
Classes:
Soulknife (Psychic Striker)
Wilder (Psychic Controller)
Empath (Psychic Leader)
Telekine (Psychic Defender)
Deathknight (Shadow Defender)
Necromancer (Shadow Controller)
Monk (Ki Striker)
Guardian (Ki Defender)
I had Assassin on there instead of Deathknight until I realised that would make three strikers again... just like PHBI and just like PHBII... that felt kind of wrong...
Shadar-kai are in Febuary's Dragon, and I'm not sure we will see a race in Dragon reprinted in a book. Do we have confirmation Warforged will be in Ebbbbbbbberon Player's Guide?
As of the "Genasi & Warforged" article, yes, we have some level of confirmation that Warforged will appear in EPG. I also bet that we will see Kalashtar alongside them, if only because they're important to the setting, but not "universal" enough in concept yet to warrant appearing in a Player's Handbook.
As for PH3, here's my main bed: Doppelganger: (<- Yep, this is the correct spelling, in both the Monster Manual, as well as in German, if you add an umlaut to the "a".) These guys are too cool and too ubiquitous in fantasy not to get a player race write-up.
Also, I just wanna add that the Manual of the Planes mentioned Illumians in 4E. Something to think about.
Doppelganger: I liked the Changeling name from 3E, but that ship has already sailed so no reason to bring it up any more. I played one of these guys in an Eberron campaign, and I can easily see them working well as a PHB3 race.
Elan: I also played one of these guys, and I loved that character. Based on what I have seen, they seem to be very popular, and if we are going to have a Psionic race this would be my pick.
Githyanki/Githzerai: I never understood the appeal of these two races, but I do understand that they are popular and important to the history of D&D. They also work pretty well with Psionics and Ki.
Kalashtar: A good Psionic/Ki race, but not the most memorable one. If any of the unique coolness of this race can survive the introduction of the Elan and the Deva, and they can be generalized into a race for settings other than Eberron (which is the hard part), then this will probably be in the PHB3. More likely that they will be in the Eberron books, though.
Centaur: This is a great classic fantasy race that deserves more of a presence in D&D.
Goblinoid or Orc: A full race write-up for one of these couldn't hurt.
Something unpredictable: This may be a cop-out of an answer, but I really am expecting them to come up with something no one has ever heard of before.
I'm betting we get psionics, but I'm not 100% sure on the second source. Psionics will definitely give us githyanki and githzerai. I'd also bet on a new/significantly redesigned bug-creature that isn't quite so nonhuman-looking as the dromite and thri-kreen. I'd personally like to see the elan and illumian merged into one race--elan are interesting in mechanics and flavor but not in appearance--but that's speculation.
If it's Shadow, then yeah, Shadar-Kai is a given, very likely shades (per FRPG). Maybe doppelgangers could be co-opted for it, and I agree that getting them into "core" ASAP would be a good think from a marketing standpoint (Eberron). Qi would lend itself to kenku and hengeyokai. Elemental, I have no idea--we already have genasi, azers don't lend themselves to it, and the four germanic-classical elemental creatures (gnomes, salamanders, sylphs, and undines) are all problematic for obvious reasons. Maybe the raptorans (air), maybe something oddball like the pech, or else something brand new.
Elan: Too many fans & too much potential to be ignored really, maybe eating Maenad. I have the unnerving feeling they'll have the Aberrant type. Hope not.
Doppelgänger: Again, too popular to ignore. Could be interesting as a Ki-race.
Satyr: Because they're like centaurs, but without the extra-rule generating legs.
Necropolitan: If you're going to have a Shadow power source then having free-willed undead seems a logical extention. It would also be nice to see a naturally occuring undead race.
- Shadar-Kai - they're in this month's Dragon (which I'm quite glad for)
- Doppelgangers - I really want a full write-up of these guys, especially some racial feats incorporating the race's psionic potential (I know they had it in 3e, not completely sure about earlier editions of the game.)
- Changelings - Since they were Doppelganger/Human half-breeds in 3e (but would step on the Doppelganger's toes a bit too much if they had the same racial power,) I'm hoping that Changelings will be treated as a Bloodline feat available to Humans
- Arcane - Originally from AD&D 2e, this race of magic-using merchants were commonly believed to be the creators of Spelljamming "technology"
- Kender - one of my favorite races... I could see them done up as simply an alternative version of the Halfling with alternative racial features and fluff
- Giff - also originally from AD&D 2e... this was a race with a strong mercenary tradition associated with the world-hopping spelljammers. We would so have to get official rules for flint-lock pistols in the same book/article as the Giff.
- the Vistani - while technically Human, I'd like some kind feat(s) (possibly a Bloodline feat) to incorporate the abilities of Sight and Cursing typically seen in Vistani bloodlines
- Tanarukks - half-breeds of Orc and Demon (from the Forgotten Realms setting)... they could either be a seperate race, in the same vein as Tieflings (which I would have rather seen as a Bloodline feat for Humans) or they could be a Bloodline feat available only to Orcs and Half-Orcs.
- Psiforged - What you get when psionic crystals are used during the Warforged creation process. Warforged with strong psionic potential instead of martial prowess.
- the Fey'ri - this race was essentially the High Elf (now Eladrin) version of the Tiefling
I know there are other races I'd like to see besides these, but these are definately some of my top picks (off the top of my head.)
As for PH3, here's my main bed: Doppelganger: (<- Yep, this is the correct spelling, in both the Monster Manual, as well as in German, if you add an umlaut to the "a".) These guys are too cool and too ubiquitous in fantasy not to get a player race write-up.
Really, I don't see how eating your loved ones innards, stealing their faces, and then eating your innards is really considered to be cool....
:PThe races I'd like to see:
- Shadar-kai
- Doppelganger
- Elan
- Githyanki
- Githzerai
Kalashtar: A good Psionic/Ki race, but not the most memorable one. If any of the unique coolness of this race can survive the introduction of the Elan and the Deva, and they can be generalized into a race for settings other than Eberron (which is the hard part), then this will probably be in the PHB3. More likely that they will be in the Eberron books, though.
I'll put money that Kalashtar will just reflavored Devas in Eberron.
Here are my early guesses plucked pretty much out of hope and logical, scientific extrapolation of the facts, data and trends... aka completely pulled out of my posterior...
PHBIII: Psychic, Shadow and Ki Heroes (It's a tough call between Ki and Elemental though.)
Races:
Shadar-Kai (I'm practically certain of this one)
Githyanki
Githzerai
Goblin (Just wishful thinking on my part)
Kalashtar (I think the Doppelganger will see a write-up in the Eberron PG and they'll save Kalashtar untill they've brought out the Psychic Classes)
Classes:
Soulknife (Psychic Striker)
Wilder (Psychic Controller)
Empath (Psychic Leader)
Telekine (Psychic Defender)
Deathknight (Shadow Defender)
Necromancer (Shadow Controller)
Monk (Ki Striker)
Guardian (Ki Defender)
I had Assassin on there instead of Deathknight until I realised that would make three strikers again... just like PHBI and just like PHBII... that felt kind of wrong...
I agree with you on the kalashtar, but some of your class suggestions make me wonder what you're smoking.
Telekine? How about a Psychic Warrior for a psionic defender?
Think you left PSION out, too, that's kind of a big one.
Death Knight is a monster, not a player race. I know Wrath of the Lich King was cool, but this is not WoW.
As an aside, I think I heard a rumor somewhere about a psionic class called Empath, so you may be on to something there. And Assassin, btw, I don't think we'll see as a shadow-powered class. After all, an assassin is just a person who kills for money, and there's already a rogue PP called Shadow Assassin.
Wasn't the mention of Illumians "They're All Dead"?
While I don't have the exact quote available, the book suggests there are survivors of the Illumian race scattered through the planes.
As for the PH3 I'm willing to bet on Psionic, Ki and Shadow - WotC seems focused on translating the old content and these power sources are the ones we're missing.
I think there's a strong possibility for:
Githyanki
Githzerai
Shadar'Kai (if they choose to reprint)
Elan
Dopplegangers (there are fairly significant hints that Kalashtar will be in the EBPG with Warforged).
Other likely (or hopeful) choices:
Kobolds
Goblins
Illumians (not my favorite race, but it does seem that WotC is planning on keeping them)
Minotaur can be a perfect race for Dragonlance player´s guide.
Gnols PCs aren´t sufficiently popular.
There is possibilities with centaurs.
I think githyankis and githzerais have to be in the same player´s book.
I´m afraid there isn´t enough space for psionic races (dromites, elan, maenad..).
Thri-keen, half-giants and muls for year of Dark Sun (2011?).
Shadar-kai can became as popular as drows.
* I´m not sure, but I think kobolds, goblins and hobgoblins will be oficial PC races someday.
* I wonder if 2010 or 2011 will be year of ki+elemental classes and oriental races.
* Don´t forget the spiker from manual of planes and the raptorans (why not? Goliaths are in PH 2).
* Don´t forget the spiker from manual of planes and the raptorans (why not? Goliaths are in PH 2).
Biggest problem with raptorans is that they're a flying race, which brings up balance concerns in 4E (not unresolvable, there are a number of homebrew races with workable flight). There's also the spellscale race from races of the dragon. To be honest though, none of the new writeup races from the Races of... series of books worked very well. I'm very wary about the Goliath, and they were the best of the lot.
I don't really see centaurs as a major race. They can't function in a dungeon crawl without a major revision... at which point you're not playing a centaur any longer, so why bother. That's probably enough to keep them out of a PH.
Centaurs can wait but I don´t rule out a article of Dragon Magazine...(why not any centaur subraces?). They quadruped, they can not wear shoes or boots, but they can be the fastest humanoid in a dungeons melee (Hummm, too fast). Don´t forget the bariaur was a oficial race (planar handbook).
The possible classes however is what will be the selling point with me.
This is, of course, only requested if they do not give Planescape proper CS treatment.
[/indent][indent]
The possible classes however is what will be the selling point with me.
I'm with you on that.[/indent]
Dragolance is made up of the three key races-Ogres (Ogres, Minatuars, Half Ogres, and Irda), Elves (Eladrin, Half Elves and Elf), and Humans. Then you have the off shout races that got warped my the magic of the Key Stone in Dwarves, Kender, centaur, and some minor races. You also then have the Draconians created by eveil takhisis in the War of the Lance.
So races in PH 3 will depend on if Dragonalnce is going to be the third setting or done later on.
I'll put money that Kalashtar will just reflavored Devas in Eberron.
Huh? What the heck is similar about a Kalashtar and a Deva? Devas are angel-people, humans mixed with celestial ancestry, similar to Aasimar in 3E (because that's what they used to be). OTOH, a Kalashtar is an almost-human body with two souls fused into one -- one a human soul, the other the soul of an aberrant horror from the plane of dreams. Deva flavour mirrors divinity, while Kalashtar flavour is closely tied to psionics.
I can see Kalashtars maybe being combined with another, similar race, like perhaps Elans or Xephs. But Devas, seriously?
Also depends on what campaign setting comes out in 2010. If it is Dragonlance other possiblities for the PH 3 and the Dragonlance Players Guide are Ogres, Half Ogres, Centaurs, Irda, Kender, Draconians, and Minatuars. Also could see a second type of dwarf either Gully or Dark Dwarves.
Dragolance is made up of the three key races-Ogres (Ogres, Minatuars, Half Ogres, and Irda), Elves (Eladrin, Half Elves and Elf), and Humans. Then you have the off shout races that got warped my the magic of the Key Stone in Dwarves, Kender, centaur, and some minor races. You also then have the Draconians created by eveil takhisis in the War of the Lance.
So races in PH 3 will depend on if Dragonalnce is going to be the third setting or done later on.
I'd guess if Dragonlance is remade into a 4E setting that the featured races will be Irda and Minotaurs(if they reprint material from the Dragon articles). Kender would probably be reflavored Halflings (perhaps with some unique racial feats to represent the new flavor), and Draconians (particularly the 'noble' draconians) reflavored Dragonborn.
Huh? What the heck is similar about a Kalashtar and a Deva? Devas are angel-people, humans mixed with celestial ancestry, similar to Aasimar in 3E (because that's what they used to be). OTOH, a Kalashtar is an almost-human body with two souls fused into one -- one a human soul, the other the soul of an aberrant horror from the plane of dreams. Deva flavour mirrors divinity, while Kalashtar flavour is closely tied to psionics.
I can see Kalashtars maybe being combined with another, similar race, like perhaps Elans or Xephs. But Devas, seriously?
I was under the impression that the fluff for Devas was that they were outsiders incarnated into flesh on the material plane and that they are constantly reincarnated, having a collective memory of their past lives. Compare that to the Kalashtar fluff, where they are explanar creatures bound in flesh on the material plane and have a vague memory of the their past life as a quori. I thought it sounded crazy at first glance until i actually compared the 2 straight up.
I was under the impression that the fluff for Devas was that they were outsiders incarnated into flesh on the material plane and that they are constantly reincarnated, having a collective memory of their past lives. Compare that to the Kalashtar fluff, where they are explanar creatures bound in flesh on the material plane and have a vague memory of the their past life as a quori. I thought it sounded crazy at first glance until i actually compared the 2 straight up.
When you put it like that, it seems almost plausible. However, since we haven't really seen the Deva flavour directly, I was assuming that it would resemble the flavour Aasimars had in 3E. (Potentially, this could be a major flaw in my logic.)
When you put it like that, it seems almost plausible. However, since we haven't really seen the Deva flavour directly, I was assuming that it would resemble the flavour Aasimars had in 3E. (Potentially, this could be a major flaw in my logic.)
We have seen enough of the Deva fluff through a couple of sources to see that their big thing really appears to be continual reincarnation. As I'm not too familiar with Eberron and the Kalashtar, I'm not sure if the Kalashtar are the best fit for the Deva(are there any celestials in Eberron that the Deva could be reincartions of?). However based off of what we have seen, I think that mechancially speaking the Kalashtar could be represented as Deva.
What appears to be the Deva's racial ability, Memory of a Thousand Lifes(or w/e it is called) would certainly fit with having a portion of a Quori in your mind. Additionally, I don't think that we'll have too many "innately" psioic races. However the Deva stat spread that I'm a believer in(+2 int, +2 wis) would certainly lend well to most psionic classes.
I'd certainly want Hobgoblins to show up in one of those PHBs as they've always been quite a valid choice for a PC race. I don't see anything too imbalanced with Hobgoblin Resilience, though it makes it so that a Hobgoblin Warden hardly has any lasting effects, since they can make so many saving throws against many effects.
I always liked Elan as a race, they've always been an interesting concept to me. As beings with psionic metabolisms who are sort of aberrant.
It's kind of hard to say what races there are linked to Shadow or Elemental that haven't already been mentioned (Shadar-Kai and Gnomes for Shadow, Genasi for Elemental).
I guess they could try making Dark Ones as a possibility, though I'm sort of disappointed that all Dark Ones are essential the size small Dark Creepers, rather than a mix of the small Dark Creepers and medium Dark Stalkers. Even if the Shadar-Kai could fill the role of their medium sized brethren.
I guess they could bring back Yuan-Ti Purebloods as well, though they wouldn't connected to a power source. And they could bring back the Jann Genies.
For me I wouldn't mind Centaurs getting a good write up. As for the size issue, there are many breeds of horses of all sizes so I can see them being medium. And with them being able to use stairs, Cats and Dogs seem to be able to do it well so why not Centaurs? I do realize that Earth Horses would have problems but we are not talking about Earth Horses now are we?
Yuan-ti PCs aren´t enough popular.
Jann genies could be a monster class (with 30 levels).
Bugbear
Catfolk
Doppelganger
Dromite
Elan
Gnoll
Goblin
Half-ogre
Hobgoblin
Illumians
Janns
Kalashtar
Killoren
Kobolds
Maenad
Minotaur
Mongrelfolk
Orcs
Raptorans
Sea Kin
Shadar-kai
Shades
Sharakim
Skulk
Stonechildren
Synod
Thri-Kreen
Underfolk
Xelph
I know I missed a few, but I was in a hurry.
Bel
I thought that WotC stated that they will NOT reprint anything that was in Dragon except in the Dragon Annual.
For me I wouldn't mind Centaurs getting a good write up. As for the size issue, there are many breeds of horses of all sizes so I can see them being medium. And with them being able to use stairs, Cats and Dogs seem to be able to do it well so why not Centaurs? I do realize that Earth Horses would have problems but we are not talking about Earth Horses now are we?
To the former: Bullhockey. Warforged will be in the Eberron Player's Guide, absolutely no doubt about it.
To the latter: I'm pretty sure WotC won't introduce any PC races that aren't humanoid in shape. That means no quadrupeds.
I'm pretty sure that doppelgangers killed changelings and took their stuff. That's why I'm fairly sure they'll be in either the EPG or PH3. Kalashtar, if they're a unique race at all (and not just an ethnicity of humans or devas) would probably be in PH3, so that's it's possible to use the EPG without owning PH3 (Kalashtar without psionics are utterly pointless).
To the former: Bullhockey. Warforged will be in the Eberron Player's Guide, absolutely no doubt about it.
There's a difference between playtests and previews, and actual subscriber content. The first makes no bones that it will come out eventually, (in one form or another, in the case of a playtest)
Playing *race*, articles, however, fall under subscriber content. They are neither playtests for what needs to be changed, nor previews for what is already slated for releace. Therefore, I believe Gnolls, Minotaurs, and Shada-kar will not see reprint in any suppliment OTHER THAN Dragon Compendium.
Never again the footbow times.
Bugbear
Catfolk
Doppelganger
Goblin
Half-ogre
Hobgoblin
Kobolds
Orcs
Bel
My additions:
- Changelings - hybrids of Humans & Doppelgangers; great as a Human-only Bloodline feat (originally from 3e Eberron)
- Reapers - a Bloodline only accessible to worshippers of the Raven Queen; would give aspects of the Sorrowsworn and access to the Raven Knight paragon path or epic destiny (new)
- Psiforged - a Warforged-only Bloodline that would grant psionic abilities [or at least make them a shoe-in for a psionic class] (originally from 3e Eberron)
- "unnamed" - a Warforged-only Bloodline that would represent Warforged who revel in their natural parts (living wood), replacing their metal parts with ironwood or some such and making them a shoe-in for a primal class (new - couldn't think of a good name)
- Duergar - the Dwarven equivilant to Tieflings who have a vendetta against illithids
- Fey'ri - the Eladrin equivilant to Tieflings... not sure if it should be a full race or an Eladrin-only Bloodline (originally from 2e/3e Forgotten Realms)
- Tannaruk - hybrids of Orcs & Demons... not sure it it should be a full race or an Orc-only Bloodline (originally from 3e FR)
Plus I've had other ideas that I can't remember at the moment
I'm pretty sure that doppelgangers killed changelings and took their stuff.Actually, the Changeling race (as presented in 3e Eberron) are actually hybrids of Humans and Doppelganger.
I'd like to see them represented in 4e as a Bloodline feat only available to Humans (or possibly any Living Humanoid, if they wanted to expand them) which would give the character an Encounter version of the Doppelganger's Change Self power and access to the Doppelganger's racial feats (once they have some.)
We have seen enough of the Deva fluff through a couple of sources to see that their big thing really appears to be continual reincarnation. As I'm not too familiar with Eberron and the Kalashtar, I'm not sure if the Kalashtar are the best fit for the Deva(are there any celestials in Eberron that the Deva could be reincartions of?). However based off of what we have seen, I think that mechancially speaking the Kalashtar could be represented as Deva.
What appears to be the Deva's racial ability, Memory of a Thousand Lifes(or w/e it is called) would certainly fit with having a portion of a Quori in your mind. Additionally, I don't think that we'll have too many "innately" psioic races. However the Deva stat spread that I'm a believer in(+2 int, +2 wis) would certainly lend well to most psionic classes.
From what I've seen of Memory, it does resemble one of the Kalashtar racial powers from 3.5.
To the former: Bullhockey. Warforged will be in the Eberron Player's Guide, absolutely no doubt about it.
Which is extremely unfortunate and stupid if true. There's absolutely no reason to put the Warforged in, when they already have a free write-up.
I'm going to be extremely disappointed if the Warforged or Kalashtar push the Dopplegangers out of the EPG. If they really insist on putting those two in, they should do all three. There's no rule against having 3 in anyways.
I'm pretty sure that doppelgangers killed changelings and took their stuff.
Actually, the Changeling race (as presented in 3e Eberron) are actually hybrids of Humans and Doppelganger.
I'd like to see them represented in 4e as a Bloodline feat only available to Humans (or possibly any Living Humanoid, if they wanted to expand them) which would give the character an Encounter version of the Doppelganger's Change Self power and access to the Doppelganger's racial feats (once they have some.)
The thing about 4E Doppelgangers is they have worked so that they could be a player race thus Changelings aren't really necessary. Changelings were there so that you could do all the Doppelganger type things without having all sorts of roadblocks in your way like LA and Racial Hit Die, assuming that there were even rules to play Doppelgangers, I don't recall, don't have an old Monster Manual with me.
In conclusion, I don't think that there's really a chance for Changelings to show up with Doppelgangers being made how they have been in this edition.
Kalashtar, if they're a unique race at all (and not just an ethnicity of humans or devas) would probably be in PH3, so that's it's possible to use the EPG without owning PH3 (Kalashtar without psionics are utterly pointless).
To quote you: "Bullhockey." There's absolutely no reason that the Psionics power source needs to be available at the time when Kalashtar are released, the same as there was absolutely no reason that the Primal power source needed to be available when Elves were released. Any connection between race and power source is self-contained within the race and its fluff.
I'm still not at all sold on "Kalashtar = Deva", either. If we're going to fold Kalashtar into another race, why isn't anyone talking about Elans or Xephs?
Finally, Doppelgangers and Kalashtar would both fit very nicely into the EPG. The difference is that Doppelgangers would also fit very nicely into any Player's Handbook too, while Kalashtar (as they were in 3.5E) are basically an Eberron-specific concept. Since Keith Baker said there was a 4E version of Kalashtar being worked on, which makes more sense: publishing Kalashtar in a setting where they have some established context for existence, or publishing them in a generic Player's Handbook where folks who've learned about Eberron will say, "What the hell is a 'Kashtalar?'"
1) The racial abilities fit very well to the concept.
2) This means that Kalashtar are available as soon as the setting is released.
3) It means they don't need to try and find a way to force devas into the setting like they have with the recent genasi/warforged article.
To quote you: "Bullhockey." There's absolutely no reason that the Psionics power source needs to be available at the time when Kalashtar are released, the same as there was absolutely no reason that the Primal power source needed to be available when Elves were released. Any connection between race and power source is self-contained within the race and its fluff.
I'm still not at all sold on "Kalashtar = Deva", either. If we're going to fold Kalashtar into another race, why isn't anyone talking about Elans or Xephs?
Finally, Doppelgangers and Kalashtar would both fit very nicely into the EPG. The difference is that Doppelgangers would also fit very nicely into any Player's Handbook too, while Kalashtar (as they were in 3.5E) are basically an Eberron-specific concept. Since Keith Baker said there was a 4E version of Kalashtar being worked on, which makes more sense: publishing Kalashtar in a setting where they have some established context for existence, or publishing them in a generic Player's Handbook where folks who've learned about Eberron will say, "What the hell is a 'Kashtalar?'"
Maybe because I've never heard of the Elans or Xephs?:P
And I know I'm a broken record, but I still don't see how a race who's purpose is to, "kill your loved ones, eat their innards, pretend to be them, eat your cat(perhaps after killing it), and then kill you and eat your innards" fits into a Player's Handbook.
Also "technically" it was never said that kalashtar are being developed just that they would have a psioic flavor. Reflavoring an existing race would technically accomplish the exact same thing. *shrugs*
Maybe because I've never heard of the Elans or Xephs?:P
And I know I'm a broken record, but I still don't see how a race who's purpose is to, "kill your loved ones, eat their innards, pretend to be them, eat your cat(perhaps after killing it), and then kill you and eat your innards" fits into a Player's Handbook.
Also "technically" it was never said that kalashtar are being developed just that they would have a psioic flavor. Reflavoring an existing race would technically accomplish the exact same thing. *shrugs*
Well R, remember that in 4E, it's the Changeling who ate the Doppelganger's innards and then pretended to be them, not the other way around. They're called Doppelgangers, but they're less monstrous and more just people who can look like anybody. Out of curiosity, were you ever into Eberron, R? I assume that lack of exposure is the source of your aversion to Changelings.
With all due respect to Ax.Badger and others, I have yet to hear any especially compelling reasons why Kalashtar ought to simply be reflavoured Devas. (Currently, I hold the notion of "Kalashtar = Devas" in the same esteem as I hold thaX' old shtick, "Dragonborn = Half-Orcs", which is to say, not especially highly.) The most frustrating part of this, though, is that there's not enough proof for me to strongly refute this nonsense either. It's enough to make me say that I'm willing to consider that the ideal solution might be "Kalashtar as a feat-path", similar to Dhampyr, except that the Kalashtar feats would be restricted to Humans and characters which can select Human feats.
The thing about 4E Doppelgangers is they have worked so that they could be a player race thus Changelings aren't really necessary. Changelings were there so that you could do all the Doppelganger type things without having all sorts of roadblocks in your way like LA and Racial Hit Die, assuming that there were even rules to play Doppelgangers, I don't recall, don't have an old Monster Manual with me.
In conclusion, I don't think that there's really a chance for Changelings to show up with Doppelgangers being made how they have been in this edition.
I will fully agree with you that the way in which the Doppelgangers are written up in 4e makes Changelings pointless as a seperate race.
Frankly, I rather like this fact. I always felt in 3e that the fluff behind the doppelgangers would make them an awesome player race (especially given their natural penchant for psionics... would love to see a doppelganger soulknife.) Also, I've never been a big fan of half-breeds as full races... part of the reason I'm a big fan of the race-modifying Bloodline feats.
I would like to see the changelings done up as a Bloodline feat (either available only to Humans if they want to keep the 3e fluff or available to any Living Humanoid if they want to expand the race.)
In fact, I would greatly prefer that all half-breeds and sub-races be Bloodline feats. (Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, etc.) I could even see the Tiefling and Shadar-Kai as Bloodline feats instead of races (since their fluff describes them as a race of cursed-bloodline humans and shadow-changed humans, respectively.) The way I look at it, Tieflings may be rather different from Humans by this point in the timeline, since some time has passed since the Bael Turath empire was a major empire, but they should still be able to take Human feats and such, since they are a sub-race. (the same way that Half-Elves are capable of taking feats meant for either Humans or Elves)
Well R, remember that in 4E, it's the Changeling who ate the Doppelganger's innards and then pretended to be them, not the other way around. They're called Doppelgangers, but they're less monstrous and more just people who can look like anybody. Out of curiosity, were you ever into Eberron, R? I assume that lack of exposure is the source of your aversion to Changelings.
With all due respect to Ax.Badger and others, I have yet to hear any especially compelling reasons why Kalashtar ought to simply be reflavoured Devas. (Currently, I hold the notion of "Kalashtar = Devas" in the same esteem as I hold thaX' old shtick, "Dragonborn = Half-Orcs", which is to say, not especially highly.) The most frustrating part of this, though, is that there's not enough proof for me to strongly refute this nonsense either. It's enough to make me say that I'm willing to consider that the ideal solution might be "Kalashtar as a feat-path", similar to Dhampyr, except that the Kalashtar feats would be restricted to Humans and characters which can select Human feats.
I don't have an aversion to Changelings, I just think Candlekeep in BG1 whenever I hear the word Doppleganger. Honestly if charname in that game wasn't a well seasoned adventuring Bhaalspawn at that point in the game, that would be the stuff of nightmares.
And ok if you don't like the "Deva=Kalashtar" theory. However, as someone who I believe is actually familiar with Eberron, how would you fit Deva in there within the boundaries of Eberron lore? And how would you work Kalashtar in to the default assumed PoL world? Both of which are questions which would have to be answered. They might be easy answers for all I know, but that is perhaps the most important place to begin.
And ok if you don't like the "Deva=Kalashtar" theory. However, as someone who I believe is actually familiar with Eberron, how would you fit Deva in there within the boundaries of Eberron lore?
The simplest answer would be to slot them in the same place the Aasimar were. Prince Lorrister of the Heavenly Fleet would be a Deva now.
The simplest answer would be to slot them in the same place the Aasimar were. Prince Lorrister of the Heavenly Fleet would be a Deva now.
Does he have any fluff that would suggest that he is a reincarnated soul or would share some characteristics with them? If not then I would say that he is actually a poor match for the Deva as that is their whole "thing" now.
I don't have an aversion to Changelings, I just think Candlekeep in BG1 whenever I hear the word Doppleganger. Honestly if charname in that game wasn't a well seasoned adventuring Bhaalspawn at that point in the game, that would be the stuff of nightmares.
And ok if you don't like the "Deva=Kalashtar" theory. However, as someone who I believe is actually familiar with Eberron, how would you fit Deva in there within the boundaries of Eberron lore? And how would you work Kalashtar in to the default assumed PoL world? Both of which are questions which would have to be answered. They might be easy answers for all I know, but that is perhaps the most important place to begin.
The same way you'd fit in tieflings, I'd imagine.
Which is extremely unfortunate and stupid if true. There's absolutely no reason to put the Warforged in, when they already have a free write-up.
I believe it's actualy been announced that Warforged will be in the EPG, but it was also mentioned that the content will be different than in the free writeup. I imagine there is additional Eberron specific content for Warforged in the EPG, as befits a major race of the setting, and they may have reprinted the basics of the Warforged race so that a printed book isn't dependant on an online source. Kalashtar were implied in the same Q&A session - but no mention was made one way or another about Changlings / Dopplegangers. I certainly don't see any reason why they couldn't include all three races in the book. I don't know that the presumption that there will be only two new races in the book has any basis in fact (other than it follows the example of the FRPG).
And ok if you don't like the "Deva=Kalashtar" theory. However, as someone who I believe is actually familiar with Eberron, how would you fit Deva in there within the boundaries of Eberron lore? And how would you work Kalashtar in to the default assumed PoL world? Both of which are questions which would have to be answered. They might be easy answers for all I know, but that is perhaps the most important place to begin.
See, I really don't see why we need fluff for each race on each world. If a particular race's origin is tied into a particular world, that's ok. Say they decided that the fluff for the Deva given in the FR CG is the official fluff for that race and that they are all from Toril... really, what's wrong with that? If you wanted to play the Deva from Toril in the core setting or some other place, just let your DM know that that's what you want to play and work together to create a background for the character. Not that difficult; it's all supposed to be the same cosmology/universe now anyway (as it should be.)
Along those same lines, the group I DM for is going to be starting a new "core setting" campaign after the PHB2 comes out and one of the players wants to play a Deva based off reading the fluff for them in the Player's Guide. So we're creating a background for him that involves him being from Toril, winding up in Sigil, and then being hired as a mercanery by the other PCs and brought into the core setting.
Since it's all supposed to be the same cosmology/universe, we really don't need every race to have a seperate, possibly parallel background in each world... they can just be from a certain world.
I don't have an aversion to Changelings, I just think Candlekeep in BG1 whenever I hear the word Doppleganger. Honestly if charname in that game wasn't a well seasoned adventuring Bhaalspawn at that point in the game, that would be the stuff of nightmares.
You make a good point here. That was a great game!
And ok if you don't like the "Deva=Kalashtar" theory. However, as someone who I believe is actually familiar with Eberron, how would you fit Deva in there within the boundaries of Eberron lore? And how would you work Kalashtar in to the default assumed PoL world? Both of which are questions which would have to be answered. They might be easy answers for all I know, but that is perhaps the most important place to begin.
I'm not too familiar with where Aasimar were put into the setting, but I think Deva might actually fit into Eberron better than Aasimar, anyway.
Personally, where do I think Deva fit neatly into Eberron? In a word: Sharn. It's *the* city for Eberron campaigns, like Waterdeep to the Realms. Of course, not only is that an easy answer, but it fits especially well on account of the fact that Sharn is built within a manifest zone to Syrania, a plane of open sky and cities filled with angels. (In other words, the city of Sharn exists in an area where a plane filled with angels touches the world.) Angels occasionally travel into Eberron through Sharn's manifest zone, evidenced every-so-often by the formation of a "radiant cult" -- a small cult which worships an earthbound angel for one reason or another. My point is, if angels can appear in Sharn, what's to stop Devas from coming with them? After all, where angels are, there are Devas too, right?
As for Kalashtar in the PoL setting, we don't have to worry about a specific place to put them. They're a race of humans (well, almost humans) who have fused souls -- one soul human, the other quori (an aberrant horror from the plane of dreams), combined together into one. Since the Manual of the Planes mentions the Plane of Dreams in the core cosmology, Kalashtar could easily be a race of humanoids with a strong connection to that plane, but if the Plane of Dreams is out, I think the Far Realm could be a reasonable substitute. Think of it: a race of (friendly) humanoids with the minds, perspectives, and souls of terrifying (rebellious) creatures beyond form or comprehension. I believe this archetype is relatively unique.
What am I probably going to get?
The Emos that cut themselves............ I mean the Shadarkai.
I want Merfolk, and Centaur.
What am I probably going to get?
The Emos that cut themselves............ I mean the Shadarkai.
Hey dude, you'd be emo too if you lived in a world where not being emo meant ceasing to exist. Also, FWIW, we're getting a "Playing Shadar-Kai" article this Friday, although that doesn't necessarily seem to preclude them from being published in a Player's Handbook as well.
...And Merfolk and Centaurs? Seriously? One's a quadraped, and the others live under the sea and don't even have legs. :P Then again, I suppose they're fairly traditional fantasy creatures, too.
Long odds maybe, but I'm going to predict Kenku. Perhaps because this guy just looks so damn cool:
Where's that awesome looking thing from?
The 4e Forgotten Relams books mention them in a few out of the way places, so there's hope.
Hey dude, you'd be emo too if you lived in a world where not being emo meant ceasing to exist. Also, FWIW, we're getting a "Playing Shadar-Kai" article this Friday, although that doesn't necessarily seem to preclude them from being published in a Player's Handbook as well.
...And Merfolk and Centaurs? Seriously? One's a quadraped, and the others live under the sea and don't even have legs. :P Then again, I suppose they're fairly traditional fantasy creatures, too.
As far as I remember, the Shadar Kai have -zero- things forcing them to be Emo or else they'd die off. They are Emo Eladrin, (look at their stats and their racial power) without the pointed ears that live in the Shadowfell.
Also they could do the Merfolk thing pretty easily in that you give em legs when they need em. ;) Or that they have legs, that have fins on them. Either way works out.
And Given that being a Quadraped doesn't interfere with combat in any way anymore the Centaur could actually be balanced against the other races.
As far as I remember, the Shadar Kai have -zero- things forcing them to be Emo or else they'd die off.
Yeah, actually it's the other way around. Everyone becomes emo if they stay in the Shadowfell, and the Shadar-Kai live there so that is of course their natural inclination. But if they give in to it too much they'll die from sheer ennui, so the cultural imperative is instead overstimulation to counteract this. Thus, most of them seem to be into the whips and chains scene, rather than shoegazing.
There's also a good chunk of info on them in the 4e Manuel of the Planes, and some things seem to have changed since. The 'turning into undead shadows if they lose themselves in ennui' bit seems to be missing and is possibly dropped. Also, originally it sounded like the Raven Queen had made them immune to death from aging, where as the MoP description seems to focus more on the removal of the 'fear' of death, rather then of death itself.
Their general description atm has them working equally well as emos, sado/masachists, or embodiments of Rand-ian self interest, with a divinely enforced meritocratic society, where all S-K seek to develop and display exceptional skill in their chosen field in order to earn transformation into a divine servant of the Raven Queen.
But even if they were just emo eladrin, emo subculture and the D&D playerbase overlap significantly, so I don't think it's fair to complain if WotC toss the Emo kids a bone now and again.
But even if they were just emo eladrin, emo subculture and the D&D playerbase overlap significantly, so I don't think it's fair to complain if WotC toss the Emo kids a bone now and again.
Or a razorblade :P .
Besides Wizards already tossed the Emo Kids a bone.
We like to call them the Drow.
And the LotR recreationits already had elves, so I don't see why they needed dwarves or halflings.
Etcetera, etcetera.
again, my quote was that it shouldn't be an issue if they get thrown a bone "now and again", not "once and once only".
4e Shadar-Kai are fairly popular, and as such successful by the only measure of any significance. They have a lot of things going for them (tied by fluff to a popular deity, tied by fluff to a popular plane, meritocratic society, beef with popular cross-setting villains, no fear of death, associated with cool exotic weapons, associated with shadow magic, distinctive appearance, fluff that suggests the potential for a very cool epic destiny, so on).
They may not be your cup of tea. Goliaths aren't my cup of tea, but I'm not bitter that they're being released, because I know I'm not the only kind of D&D fan that matters out there, and I'm confident that they'll get to the race I really want (hobgoblins!) eventually.
The cutting thing that the S-K have going is also distasteful, but it bothers me way less then the political issues the drow have, especially since it's been toned down so significantly.
Originally the shadar-kai fluff was that the raven queen made them 'immortal', but that if they ever lost interest in the world around them they would turn into undead shadows, so they would inflict pain on themselves to stay rooted. This is very much a 'I cut myself so I can feel" kind of thing, and I never much liked it.
The new fluff, as of MotP, is that the raven queen took their request more literally and removed instead only the fear of death - they still grow old and die normally (although there's some question remaining regarding their lifespan). The masachism thing isn't tied directly to their physiology. Instead the Shadowfell itself is simply emotionally draining to live in, and so their society favors extremes - pleasure, pain, or otherwise - in entertainment. The preference for piercings and tatoos was shifted from 'masachistic element' to 'cultural style'.
All changes I approve of, and as such I'm at least a fan. For me they're right up there with gnomes and humans for favorite race. Although they're all still behind hobgoblins.
In any event, I'm quite willing to argue their merits, and I even acknowledge some of their problems, but I do think the 'emos already got a race, so they should shut up and go sit in a corner while WotC releases more races just for me!' position is a bit lame.
The new fluff, as of MotP, is that the raven queen took their request more literally and removed instead only the fear of death - they still grow old and die normally (although there's some question remaining regarding their lifespan). The masachism thing isn't died directly to their physiology. Instead the Shadowfell itself is simply emotionally draining to live in, and so their society favors extremes - pleasure, pain, or otherwise - in entertainment. The preference for piercings and tatoos was shifted from 'masachistic element' to 'cultural style'.
Note to self, if I ever see a puzzle-box of Shadar-Kai Make, RUN LIKE HELL.
Yes, and the kids who like to play big, tough, macho characters also already have a race. It's called dragonborn. So we don't need half orcs, or goliaths, or anything else of that nature.
And the LotR recreationits already had elves, so I don't see why they needed dwarves or halflings.
Etcetera, etcetera.
again, my quote was that it shouldn't be an issue if they get thrown a bone "now and again", not "once and once only".
4e Shadar-Kai are fairly popular, and as such successful by the only measure of any significance. They have a lot of things going for them (tied by fluff to a popular deity, tied by fluff to a popular plane, meritocratic society, beef with popular cross-setting villains, no fear of death, associated with cool exotic weapons, associated with shadow magic, distinctive appearance, fluff that suggests the potential for a very cool epic destiny, so on).
They may not be your cup of tea. Goliaths aren't my cup of tea, but I'm not bitter that they're being released, because I know I'm not the only kind of D&D fan that matters out there, and I'm confident that they'll get to the race I really want (hobgoblins!) eventually.
Dude their stats AND RACIAL POWER are the EXACT SAME. No joke. Unless I'm mistaken. It's not that I'm bitter. But power wise.. come on surely they could have thought of something better.
Dude their stats AND RACIAL POWER are the EXACT SAME. No joke. Unless I'm mistaken. It's not that I'm bitter. But power wise.. come on surely they could have thought of something better.
They share stat mods with eladrin, but that's not that big a deal. There are, after all, only six stats to mod, and thus only so many combinations to work with.
As for the racial power, they are similar. But where the eladrin power boasts extra range to emphasize tactical positioning, the S-K power's temporary insubstantiality is the more significant aspect - making it a more defensive power, overall. I've played with both, and the differance is greater then you would expect. Racial feats would only heighten the distinction. And Eladrin and S-K are quite distinctive in style, fluff, and appearance.
And there's nothing to say that their full PC stats will be the same as their monster manual stats. Drow, after all, got a whole separate racial power when they got the full treatment. S-K, with their decent but not overwhealming racial power, stat boosts to defence-redundant stats, and not a lot else, are prime candidates for a bit of 'sprucing up'.
Note to self, if I ever see a puzzle-box of Shadar-Kai Make, RUN LIKE HELL.
LOL
Oh yeah... don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the Shadar-Kai based off what we've seen thus far... but still, when describing the different race options to new players the word cenobite definately popped up a couple times. Not that that bothers me... I've been a huge fan of Hellraiser since I was about five years old... and now they've given us a D&D equivelant to cenobites as a PC races. Boo-yah! (or at least they will have once the article comes out... it keeps getting pushed back apparently, from what others on the boards were saying)
They share stat mods with eladrin, but that's not that big a deal. There are, after all, only six stats to mod, and thus only so many combinations to work with.
15 combinations to be exact. Thats actually a really small pool of possible mods to work with. Of course, it doesn't help that the Shadar'Kai have an almost identical encounter power.
That said, I still think the vast differences in tone warrant a separate race from Eladrin, and I trust that the full racial write-up will give them a more significant mechanical distinction.
Yeah, actually it's the other way around. Everyone becomes emo if they stay in the Shadowfell, and the Shadar-Kai live there so that is of course their natural inclination. But if they give in to it too much they'll die from sheer ennui, so the cultural imperative is instead overstimulation to counteract this. Thus, most of them seem to be into the whips and chains scene, rather than shoegazing.
You're splitting hairs, Bolongo. It's that they feel anything that matters, not the specific nature of what they feel.
Races and Classes isn't official canon though :P At least not any more. (wants to weep because of the good fluff that was in it. Such as the Halflings)
Besides Wizards already tossed the Emo Kids a bone.
We like to call them the Drow.
Races and Classes is no more or less canon now than it was when it was released. As a preview book, everything in it was potentially subject to change.
As far as "tossing emo kids a bone: Drow" goes, that point makes about as much sense as thaX's ol' shtick about "Dragonborn are Half-Orcs". It's a dumb point based on an inaccurate overgeneralization, and when you take this point to its logical conclusion it becomes downright offensive. You're judging a (fictional) culture as superfluous on the basis of some perceived similarity with another (fictional) culture; imagine if you used that logic in real life -- you'd be called a racist so fast your head would spin. Furthermore, what the hell is actually similar about Drow and Shadar-Kai? They don't look the same at all, they don't act the same, they don't have the same beliefs, and they don't exist in the same part of the cosmology.
Labeling people as "emo" on the basis of the fictional character race they play doesn't help either.
Yes, and the kids who like to play big, tough, macho characters also already have a race. It's called dragonborn. So we don't need half orcs, or goliaths, or anything else of that nature.
And the LotR recreationits already had elves, so I don't see why they needed dwarves or halflings.
Etcetera, etcetera.
again, my quote was that it shouldn't be an issue if they get thrown a bone "now and again", not "once and once only".
4e Shadar-Kai are fairly popular, and as such successful by the only measure of any significance. They have a lot of things going for them (tied by fluff to a popular deity, tied by fluff to a popular plane, meritocratic society, beef with popular cross-setting villains, no fear of death, associated with cool exotic weapons, associated with shadow magic, distinctive appearance, fluff that suggests the potential for a very cool epic destiny, so on).
They may not be your cup of tea. Goliaths aren't my cup of tea, but I'm not bitter that they're being released, because I know I'm not the only kind of D&D fan that matters out there, and I'm confident that they'll get to the race I really want (hobgoblins!) eventually.
This.
I've been a huge fan of Hellraiser since I was about five years old...
Ok, off-topic, but a five year old watching Hellraiser is pretty &%*$ed-up.
Dude their stats AND RACIAL POWER are the EXACT SAME. No joke. Unless I'm mistaken. It's not that I'm bitter. But power wise.. come on surely they could have thought of something better.
What malisteen already said bears repeating.
[indent]1.) The Shadar-Kai racial power in the Monster Manual is NOT exactly the same as the Eladrin racial power. They're similar, but to call them "the EXACT SAME" is visibly false.
2.) There's no reason to think that the Monster Manual non-player character Shadar-Kai racial power will be similar to the "Playing Shadar-Kai" player character Shadar-Kai racial power. IIRC, nearly all of the NPC races which have been given a PC race write-up have come out of it with significant differences compared to their original version.[/indent]
You're entitled to express your opinion Micha, but if you're not willing to stop speaking in absolutes, people are gonna start calling you Nancy Grace. Nobody deserves that.
Bel
Shadar-Kai: Teleport 3 squares, turn insubstantial till start of next turn.
Similar, but not exactly the same.
In a nutshell, I think we'll get: Shadar-kai, githzerai, githyanki, duergar, catfolk (or some other feline race like Xeph).
I seem to remember it being said somewhere that S-K were originally Eladrin that the Raven Queen converted. Or it maybe something I was going to put in my homebrew. Any one else remember seeing this?
They were originally humans, not eladrin.
Ok, off-topic, but a five year old watching Hellraiser is pretty &%*$ed-up.
lol... yeah... why my parents allowed it I'll never know... but on the upside it got me into reading Clive Barker, Stephen King, and other great authors... right alongside the Dragonlance Chronicles, the Icewind Dale trilogy, etc.
Races and Classes isn't official canon though :P At least not any more.
Oh, hi. Haven't looked at this thread for a while...
But if I was the one you were asking for a source, what I wrote is 100% paraphrased from Manual of the Planes. Wasn't looking at Races and Classes at all.
You're splitting hairs, Bolongo. It's that they feel anything that matters, not the specific nature of what they feel.
Sorry, you lost me there. Are you claiming that emo is a feeling? ;)
lol... yeah... why my parents allowed it I'll never know... but on the upside it got me into reading Clive Barker, Stephen King, and other great authors... right alongside the Dragonlance Chronicles, the Icewind Dale trilogy, etc.
Clive Barker is a DEEPLY disturbed individual.
Remember, Hellraiser was written while he was still somewhat normal.
He's gotten wierder.
Eladrin: Teleport 5 squares
Shadar-Kai: Teleport 3 squares, turn insubstantial till start of next turn.
Similar, but not exactly the same.
In a nutshell, I think we'll get: Shadar-kai, githzerai, githyanki, duergar, catfolk (or some other feline race like Xeph).
Ah okay.
I don't feel so bad about it now. (I haven't looked at them in a while)
I'm pretty sure we'll see the Gith races in PHB III. I think that one goes without saying.
Catfolk, we already have? Shifters? At least that's what I used for cat folk :P
Ah okay.
I don't feel so bad about it now. (I haven't looked at them in a while)
I'm pretty sure we'll see the Gith races in PHB III. I think that one goes without saying.
Catfolk, we already have? Shifters? At least that's what I used for cat folk :P
Yeah, I thought of shifters - but I can see a niche for a race that is clearly p... and nothing but p...
Which should be called something other than 'catfolk', of course.
They were originally humans, not eladrin.
in world yes...in real world no...the Shadaa kai were from 3e were they were shadow elves....I know I found out somewhere that Cordell (There creator) felt there were to many elves and changed it at the late in the 4e process...so I submit at one point they were Dark Elasrins...
From what I've seen of Memory, it does resemble one of the Kalashtar racial powers from 3.5.
Which is extremely unfortunate and stupid if true. There's absolutely no reason to put the Warforged in, when they already have a free write-up.
I'm going to be extremely disappointed if the Warforged or Kalashtar push the Dopplegangers out of the EPG. If they really insist on putting those two in, they should do all three. There's no rule against having 3 in anyways.
So, they are already free write up where? and how is it a problem to add free stuff into a book so people who don't have the time or tech to go hunt for this elusive free junk can play a WF as well?
Or to put it another way. 1 + 0 is still 1 right? so why are you opposed to adding 0 to 1 again? if 1 represents the EPG, and 0 represents WF content being put in it, what exactly is your problem with that other than just to whine about something meaningless?
...And as I type this, my pet cat whom I love comes into the room, and now I feel guilty about saying that.
So, they are already free write up where? and how is it a problem to add free stuff into a book so people who don't have the time or tech to go hunt for this elusive free junk can play a WF as well?
Or to put it another way. 1 + 0 is still 1 right? so why are you opposed to adding 0 to 1 again? if 1 represents the EPG, and 0 represents WF content being put in it, what exactly is your problem with that other than just to whine about something meaningless?
The "Playing Warforged" article was one of the very first 4E articles for Dragon Magazine, appearing in one of the free issues available in the Dragon Magazine archive (#364, IIRC).
However, rumour is that the Warforged race that is expected to appear in the Eberron Player's Guide will not be exactly the same as the Dragon Magazine version, which will have been published more than a year earlier when EPG gets released. Furthermore, you're right: Warforged should appear in the EPG; after all, can you imagine buying a book called the "Eberron Player's Guide" and not finding rules for playing Warforged inside? That'd be like Star Trek without Klingons, or Star Wars without Jedis: a rip-off to fans of the franchise.
The Shifter may be the cat people race (I haven't seen how they work in 4e), so, tho' I eagerly await a properly done Ki PHB, I know not what races I would hope to accompany it. I suppose tengu could be one, or a humanoid race with wings off their elbows thought to live on an island south of China. In pictures I've seen, they resemble tengu (crow kind or long-nosed kind) as well.
So, they are already free write up where? and how is it a problem to add free stuff into a book so people who don't have the time or tech to go hunt for this elusive free junk can play a WF as well?
Or to put it another way. 1 + 0 is still 1 right? so why are you opposed to adding 0 to 1 again? if 1 represents the EPG, and 0 represents WF content being put in it, what exactly is your problem with that other than just to whine about something meaningless?
So ... wanting the Doppleganger, which Eberron basically made playable in the first place, in the EPG over the Warforged that we already have a perfectly serviceable version of is meaningless whining? Riiiiiiiight ....
in world yes...in real world no...the Shadaa kai were from 3e were they were shadow elves....I know I found out somewhere that Cordell (There creator) felt there were to many elves and changed it at the late in the 4e process...so I submit at one point they were Dark Elasrins...
Shadar-Kai in 3e were fey.
Dragon issue #337 has the Ecology thereof.
Fey.
Toss in my vote for "Catfolk should be rolled into Shifter". The more animal-anthropomorphs we can get rid of, the better.
...And as I type this, my pet cat whom I love comes into the room, and now I feel guilty about saying that.
If my best friend heard you say that, he'd likely beat you to a pulp with a giant hammer. Having antropomorphic races is a perfectly fine way to add races. Some people just like to play them(aka refuse to play any non-anthropomorphic characters). Although they do deserve a better name then catfolk.
Yeah, I thought of shifters - but I can see a niche for a race that is clearly p... and nothing but p...
Which should be called something other than 'catfolk', of course.
Given that we have a Dex based shifter (and most people's Cat people write up that I see is +2 Dex +2 Wis which really fits the dex shifter already :D)
I just figured I'd roll them up into being Shifters, and give shifters a much wider variety in appearance.
If my best friend heard you say that, he'd likely beat you to a pulp with a giant hammer. Having antropomorphic races is a perfectly fine way to add races. Some people just like to play them(aka refuse to play any non-anthropomorphic characters). Although they do deserve a better name then catfolk.
What can I say? I just think they're silly.
Anthropomorphic whales, on the other hand...
What can I say? I just think they're silly.
Rawr! *Pounces and noms on*
Rawr! *Pounces and noms on*
I think we should just stay friends.
Kobolds: Yes, I love to play kobolds, but the version in the Monster Manual is rather odd (no darkvision? Con +2? Why would fragile, underground-dwelling creatures have normal eyesight and strong constitutions?).
Catfolk: The anthropomorphic cat is a popular enough idea to be brought into 4th edition, though it would be nice if they were more than just humans with cat ears (in my games in 3rd edition, I would describe the as looking like gnolls with long tails and mountain lion heads), and I would definitely change the name (too many "-folk" races as it is).
Killoren: Would be good for a primal race (as a fey intimately connected to nature), as long as they looked like the pictures in "Races of the Wild," not the description. There are already too many "looks exactly like a human/elf except for some small thing."
Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Bugbears: One would be nice, though I would prefer if all the full PC write-ups for the goblin family were in the same book, and I don't know if WOTC would want to devote that many pages to non-elves.
I don't know why they would release the Shadar Kai in the PHB3. I don't understand why thats even being seen as an option. We'll see it on the 16th of this month. Why would they release it again in a book? Would they re-release Humans or Elves in the PHB3?
I see Orcs, Goblinoids, Dopplegangers, Centaurs, and Kobolds.
I don't know why they would release the Shadar Kai in the PHB3. I don't understand why thats even being seen as an option. We'll see it on the 16th of this month. Why would they release it again in a book? Would they re-release Humans or Elves in the PHB3?
They would release it again for the same reason that they are releasing Warforged again in EPG?
Shadar-kai are in Febuary's Dragon, and I'm not sure we will see a race in Dragon reprinted in a book. Do we have confirmation Warforged will be in Ebbbbbbbberon Player's Guide?
Four pages and I only read the first....
FDW, you are so out of touch on this. The races in the Dragon Mag are "Optional Material" as all the DDi stuff is considered to be, as that was the original purpose as proposed. The Gnome and Half Orc is coming in the PHB2, the Warforged is coming out in the Eberron Books.
So my thought into this. I think the Dromites need to be included, and the Gith races need renamed... I mean, come on, it sounds like something from a b grade movie.
So my thought into this. I think the Dromites need to be included, and the Gith races need renamed... I mean, come on, it sounds like something from a b grade movie.
...You know that the Gith races have already been discussed in several different 4E books, right? (Not as player races, per se, but they do appear as NPC races in the Monster Manual.) The thing to note is that they still have the same names they used to. Granted, they are pretty weird names, but hey, it's legacy now, I suppose.
...Dromites? Really? Personally, I kinda hope they roll together all the psionic bug-races, too.
Four pages and I only read the first....
FDW, you are so out of touch on this. The races in the Dragon Mag are "Optional Material" as all the DDi stuff is considered to be, as that was the original purpose as proposed. The Gnome and Half Orc is coming in the PHB2, the Warforged is coming out in the Eberron Books.
So my thought into this. I think the Dromites need to be included, and the Gith races need renamed... I mean, come on, it sounds like something from a b grade movie.
Dragon is as "optional" as every other book, including the PHB.
They would release it again for the same reason that they are releasing Warforged again in EPG?
...? Are they? Seriously? Link away Ranadiel!!!
DW, you are so out of touch on this. The races in the Dragon Mag are "Optional Material" as all the DDi stuff is considered to be, as that was the original purpose as proposed. The Gnome and Half Orc is coming in the PHB2, the Warforged is coming out in the Eberron Books.
I feel sorry to correct you here but... The original purpose of all of 4e material is that EVERYTHING is considered 'core'. Even the Dragon/Dungeon material.
...? Are they? Seriously? Link away Ranadiel!!!
You know I do keep a rather large list of links so that you can look them up yourself.....I'm just saying.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090116
I feel sorry to correct you here but... The original purpose of all of 4e material is that EVERYTHING is considered 'core'. Even the Dragon/Dungeon material.
That all the "Books" are core, DDi has always been "optional" material, hence why it has a monthly fee. "Exclusive core" would not be the same as "core."
It is why the Warforged is different than the MM stats, and will be different than the Dragon write up in the EPG.
That all the "Books" are core, DDi has always been "optional" material, hence why it has a monthly fee. "Exclusive core" would not be the same as "core."
Are you also argueing that none of the books are core? Because you have to spend money on the books also and they come out once a month as well, so if you get all the books it ends up basically being a monthly fee as well. Besides you can download the issues of Dragon and Dungeon and keep them forever, so the only differences are a lack of a physical medium, lower prices, and at the moment you get all the Dragon and Dungeon cumulative material with a subscription.That all the "Books" are core, DDi has always been "optional" material, hence why it has a monthly fee. "Exclusive core" would not be the same as "core."
It is why the Warforged is different than the MM stats, and will be different than the Dragon write up in the EPG.
Actually, that reads like a contrived rationalization of an arbitrary position.
Let's sort a few things out:
- The monthly fee for Dragon Magazine is by virtue of its format, not its content: It's a periodical!
- The only "non-optional" parts of 4E are the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual. Beyond that, everything official, including Martial Power, Draconomicon I, and the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, is equally "core". Dragon Magazine is no more or less optional than any of the hardcovers are.
- Dragon Magazine is only "exclusive" to folks who pay for it. In comparison, the hardcover books are only exclusive to folks who pay for them. In other words, Dragon Magazine is no more exclusive than any hardcover rulebook.
- Warforged from Dragon Magazine have different stats than the ones in the Monster Manual because the stats in the MM are intended for NPCs. The Dragon Magazine warforged stats are meant for PCs.
- If the rules for warforged PCs in the Eberron Player's Guide are different from the rules in Dragon Magazine, it will be because WotC has learned from the year in between each, and wants to change something.
Education FTW.
The Hardcovered books, Player guides, campaign settings and such, are considered "core" products, as has been stated.
It serves to conclude that anything in the 'optional' mags within DDi has a good chance to be reprinted in a "core" product, such as the Warforged in the Eberron Player's Guide.
BTW, there is player stats in the MM for the Warforged, Gnome and other races in the back.
The magazines were not considered a part of the "line" in the previous edition, they were a product for those that wanted more than the published books already available. It had been stated, on these very pages, by those representing Wizards, that the material in the online mags are "optional" material. It isn't cryptic.
The Hardcovered books, Player guides, campaign settings and such, are considered "core" products, as has been stated.
It serves to conclude that anything in the 'optional' mags within DDi has a good chance to be reprinted in a "core" product, such as the Warforged in the Eberron Player's Guide.
BTW, there is player stats in the MM for the Warforged, Gnome and other races in the back.
Again, Dragon and Dungeon are just as much Core as the hardcovers. That is fact, stated by WotC. And those are not PC stats. Those are NPC stats that may be used by players with DM permission. Big difference.
That said, the material in the mags are not excluded from being reprinted and changed in "core" products that are not on the monthly fee, like the example from before, the Warforged going into the Eberron Player's Guide.
I agree, the stats are for Players to use the MM monsters as playable races. The races that will be in the Player Guides will be filled out nicely and might change from what is in the MM, or in Dragon.
Then the tenants of DDi has changed. It had been stated before that it was optional.
I've never seen that statement. Of course it's "optional" in the sense of "you can survive without it", but that's true of everything beyond the first three books. And of course any DM has final say on what material to allow in his/her campaign, but DDI stuff is and has always been officially allowed in RPGA games, for example.
That said, the material in the mags are not excluded from being reprinted and changed in "core" products that are not on the monthly fee, like the example from before, the Warforged going into the Eberron Player's Guide.
Well, obviously such (modified) rehashes are not impossible, but they're not supposed to be the norm.
Well, obviously such (modified) rehashes are not impossible, but they're not supposed to be the norm.
This is my point. It is absolutely the norm. The Dragon articles are, to me, considered previews, and that is what they have resembled.
Not everything is gonna be reprinted, obviously, but most of the popular choices, like Warforged and Alchemy, are going to be repinted in a core product.
The DDi in general was an "optional" service to go into to supplement the D&D experience.
This is my point. It is absolutely the norm. The Dragon articles are, to me, considered previews, and that is what they have resembled.
Just because you feel it all resembles "previews" (of what?) does not make it true. Every article in Dragon is official unless it says otherwise, even if it does get supplanted in the future.
Not everything is gonna be reprinted, obviously, but most of the popular choices, like Warforged and Alchemy, are going to be repinted in a core product.
D&DI is a core product. Please present an official source that says otherwise.
Also, alchemy rules first appeared in Adventurer's Vault, a hardcover product. Still, it's no less "optional" than Dragon is.
The DDi in general was an "optional" service to go into to supplement the D&D experience.
D&DI is not essential to the game. One does not need D&DI to play a full, enjoyable 4E D&D game. In this sense, it is optional.
Dragon Magazine is core. It is exactly as core as Adventurer's Vault, Open Grave, and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. All of them are official and direct from WotC, but none of them contain essential rules.
To be frank, the mags are a ghost of what the printed media had been, and will never quite reach the quality that had come before they were tethered to an online server.
One reason for this is that there are no real coherent issue, but various articles that are numbered by issue that are released throughout the month.
So the question is, why are you so worked up about whether or not an online service can be the same importance as the books it serves to supplement?
It was stated as optional when it was first advertised, before it was actually call "Insider." If a statement has made it "core" recently then the tenants of the original purpose of DDi has changed.
You're really driving the semantics into the ground here. As I and others have pointed out several times now, something can be "optional" and "core" at the same time. It all depends on how you define those words. So you have to look at the statements you're referring to in their context and make educated guesses about how the people speaking are using them.
Also, "tenants" are people who live in a building. The word you're looking for is "tenets". ;)
It was stated as optional when it was first advertised, before it was actually call "Insider." If a statement has made it "core" recently then the tenants of the original purpose of DDi has changed.
You keep saying this, but you still haven't offered any proof that anyone ever said that. Furthermore, like Bolongo and others have tried to indicate to you, "optional" and "core" aren't mutually exclusive qualities.
Given your sometimes-tentative command of the English language, thaX, isn't it possible that you misunderstood something? It's definitely possible that you're misremembering.
To be frank, the mags are a ghost of what the printed media had been, and will never quite reach the quality that had come before they were tethered to an online server.
Your opinion, not a fact. Personally, I feel the opposite: Dragon and Dungeon Magazines are not only more interesting to me now, but they cost dramatically less, all without subjecting me to fifty pages of cheesy ads each issue.
One reason for this is that there are no real coherent issue, but various articles that are numbered by issue that are released throughout the month.
Each issue of Dragon is compiled and updated at the end of its month of release. If you don't want to read it as separate articles, you don't have to.
So the question is, why are you so worked up about whether or not an online service can be the same importance as the books it serves to supplement?
If anybody is "worked up", it's because you are willfully spreading misinformation here, on the Future Releases board, where we spend a lot of time trying to sort fact from speculation. You came into this thread, thaX, and corrected someone who wasn't wrong. Since then you have consistently rebuffed others' attempts to correct you, by spouting provably inaccurate gibberish at them.
Either provide proof that we're wrong, or stop spreading incorrect information to others on these boards; either way, you and I will get along just fine, thaX. We're getting way off-topic already anyway.
I'd love to see more attention given to the "monstrous" races. Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, Kobolds, and Lizardfolk would be my five top picks because of how ubiquitous they are. Especially with Eberron coming out soon, orcs need to be made more playable. I'd actually have preferred to see them in PH2 (or even PH1) instead of eladrin or goliaths, which are cool but seem kind of ... random?
Do I need a D&D Insider subscription to play 4th Edition?
No, you do not need D&D Insider to play 4th Edition D&D. A D&D Insider subscription will provide you access to the online magazines and tools, but these are simply new and compelling [u]options[/u] to enhance your overall gaming experience. Dungeons & Dragons will fundamentally remain a pen-and-paper roleplaying game.
Will I be missing out on needed 4th Edition content if I don’t subscribe to D&D Insider?
No, we want to make sure that your analog D&D experience is as complete as possible. Should you choose to remain a pen-and-paper gamer, you will always have a complete and outstanding experience using our printed rulebooks, adventures, physical minis, etc.
Players handbook 2 is also optional... doesn't mean it's not core.
On topic - I don't care if it's PHB3 or Dragon, I just want full write-ups for Hobgoblins and Githyanki. I do hope we get at least two of the Shadow classes in PHB3 though.
from the DDi faq
Do I need a D&D Insider subscription to play 4th Edition?
No, you do not need D&D Insider to play 4th Edition D&D. A D&D Insider subscription will provide you access to the online magazines and tools, but these are simply new and compelling [u]options[/u] to enhance your overall gaming experience. Dungeons & Dragons will fundamentally remain a pen-and-paper roleplaying game.
The last sentence explains this paragraph: the digital tools (character builder, game table etc.) are not needed to play, you can still play using only pen, paper and dice.
But nowhere in this paragraph does it state that these options are somehow ranked lower on any imaginary totem pole.
Will I be missing out on needed 4th Edition content if I don’t subscribe to D&D Insider?
No, we want to make sure that your analog D&D experience is as complete as possible. Should you choose to remain a pen-and-paper gamer, you will always have a complete and outstanding experience using our printed rulebooks, adventures, physical minis, etc.
Again, this says that if you don't have a DDI subscription, your game will not be lessened for it. (Whether this is in fact true is a matter of personal taste and opinion - some people try the digital offerings and can never go back ;))
Again, there is no ranking of material implied here. It does not say that the printed material is more important, only that it is self-sufficient.
I agree. This thread needs to get back on topic. If PHBIII has a focus on Psionic and Ki (4/4) I predict the Gith races, but I can't think of anything else that fits upcoming power sources except Shadar-kai, and we're already getting a full writeup for them on the 16th (although we may see a reprint).
Ooo yes, a proper discussion, thank you. :D
With the reveal that the Monk is in PH 3, I would think the Githzerai are a good choice. And of course, where one Gith race goes, you gotta have the other. And if the Githzerai are in there, and Eberron already has the Kalashtar, there's a lot of demand for some Psi classes. Which would open up for even more Psi-dependant races...
That said, the Gith were doing the whole ex-slave thing before the Dwarves and Gnomes got into the act. Though a book that explores these ex-slave races and their hatred to their masters would be awesome.
-Githyanki
-Githzerai
-Illumians
-Kalashtar
-Shadar Kai (yes, I know about the article)
-Thri-Kreen (to tie in with Dark Sun, hopefully)
…And (dromites, elan, maenad)?
-Those floating symbols above their heads dudes in MotP?
Illumians (From Races of Destiny in 3.5)
I'd like to see Raptorians make a return. I liked them a lot.
I do hope that one of the future PHB's will be monstrous race themed.
Goblins
Hobgoblins
Orcs
Ogre/Half-Ogre
Bugbear
Gnolls
Kobolds
Etc.
1.) Illumians (From Races of Destiny in 3.5)
2.) I'd like to see Raptorians make a return. I liked them a lot.
1.) Right on, thanks (had brain flatulence and couldn't recall).
2.) I would rather stick needles in my eyes than see the return of that race.
My current speculation:
-Githyanki
-Githzerai
-Illumians
-Kalashtar
-Shadar Kai (yes, I know about the article)
-Thri-Kreen (to tie in with Dark Sun, hopefully)
…And (dromites, elan, maenad)?
Im betting the kalashtar will be in the PGtE due to the talk of how to run kalashtar without psionics. I mean, if kalashtar was going to be in the same book as psionics, why would they field the question of running them in the absence of psionics?
Thri-kreen would be awsome though. The more non-"humans with pointy ears" races they can put out, the better. If they got the thri-kreen out of the way, they could then have the slot open for muls in the Dark Sun book and with a reflavor of goliaths as half-giants we would have everything covered.
OK I will make one last attempt to parse this for you.
The last sentence explains this paragraph: the digital tools (character builder, game table etc.) are not needed to play, you can still play using only pen, paper and dice.
But nowhere in this paragraph does it state that these options are somehow ranked lower on any imaginary totem pole.
Again, this says that if you don't have a DDI subscription, your game will not be lessened for it. (Whether this is in fact true is a matter of personal taste and opinion - some people try the digital offerings and can never go back ;))
Again, there is no ranking of material implied here. It does not say that the printed material is more important, only that it is self-sufficient.
I have not seen any sources that say that it is core. This, in fact, states that it is an option, one that isn't required to play the game, but can be gotten to enhance it.
As for the power sources, I really want the Shadow power source in the PHB3. A class that is like an expanded Shadow Dancer, along with the illusionist and Necromancer, would be a nice follow up to the PHB2 Primal classes.
I think we're gonna see another new (or completely redesigned) race, along the lines of Dragonborn or Devas.
Also, though I never gave a damn about Illumians in 3.5E, I am becoming gradually more enthralled with the idea after their mention in the 4E Manual of the Planes. (Great book, btw; you should get it.) Come to think of it, I had a similar experience with Goliath after I heard they would be in PH2. I still don't care about Raptorans, but maybe with a cool new 4E treatment?
I have not seen any sources that say that it is core. This, in fact, states that it is an option, one that isn't required to play the game, but can be gotten to enhance it.
OK, so now you understand what "optional" means. This is progress.
All that remains is for you to understand "core".
"Core" does not mean "compulsory". It means "fits all other rules without contradictions".
So "everything is core" simply means there will never be any "optional rules" published that go against the basic system (see the thread about Unearthed Arcana :P).
In other words, DDI and all books published after the basic set of PH+DMG+MM are equally "core" and equally "optional". An "option" (say, a Paragon Path) that appears in Dragon magazine is just as "core" and "official" as one that appears in a printed book (say, a PH n or X Power book).
Thing is, CORE being something other than the main three books is a change that has everyone confused or not caring. My interpretation is that it is the main three and their sequels along with the campaign settings and the campaign player guides. It has since morphed, to include the Power books and somehow include the hardcover books that come out each month.
My contention is that DDi is not a part of that. That would be holding a part of the game for a monthly ransom. It is Optional. Most of the stuff used in Core products from DDi will be re-worked, even within the pages of the hard bound annual. It has been stated that the only place for new races or classes are in the Player Hand Books and the Setting's Players guide.
So, Core is now everything published by Wizards? How does the Magic Cards fit into all this?
Thing is, CORE being something other than the main three books is a change that has everyone confused or not caring. My interpretation is that it is the main three and their sequels along with the campaign settings and the campaign player guides. It has since morphed, to include the Power books and somehow include the hardcover books that come out each month.
My contention is that DDi is not a part of that. That would be holding a part of the game for a monthly ransom. It is Optional. Most of the stuff used in Core products from DDi will be re-worked, even within the pages of the hard bound annual. It has been stated that the only place for new races or classes are in the Player Hand Books and the Setting's Players guide.
The problem is that this position is fairly arbitrary. The highest tier of "core"/"non-optional-ness" is the Player's Handbook, the Monster Manual, and the Dungeon Master's Guide, because these three lay out the rules upon which all other 4E rules are based. There's really no reason that any other hardcover books are at all necessary to play 4E, no matter how much cool stuff comes with it.
Beyond the first three books, everything else is supplemental to those first three books, and therefore, by definition, "optional". (This includes Player's Handbook 2, DMG9, and whatever other sequel books, because they merely add to the rules, rather than define them.) Since WotC has decided to treat all official 4E material as core, (as in, "officially endorsed" rather than "essential for play"), that's how the community views it, including D&DI.
The problem is that this position is fairly arbitrary. The highest tier of "core"/"non-optional-ness" is the Player's Handbook, the Monster Manual, and the Dungeon Master's Guide, because these three lay out the rules upon which all other 4E rules are based.
Actually you can make an argument that only the PHB is required as the DMG doesn't have any "secret" rules or any magic items in it and you can always make your own monsters. The PHB is only required because it is where all the combat rules in it......actually I take that back. KotS had most combat rules in it, so you could get that instead of the PHB. So everything is optional!:D
The Raavasta I would like to see be statted out as a Player Race. Though hell doesn't need to be PHB3 be content with a DDI article. I think too all their trickery could work well with both Psionics and Shadow.
Actually you can make an argument that only the PHB is required as the DMG doesn't have any "secret" rules or any magic items in it and you can always make your own monsters. The PHB is only required because it is where all the combat rules in it......actually I take that back. KotS had most combat rules in it, so you could get that instead of the PHB. So everything is optional!
Definitely! I am completely willing to argue that the Player's Handbook is at the very top of the hierarchy, above even the other two "essential" books. Everybody playing 4E ought to seriously consider purchasing their own copy of the PH; it comes right after dice on the list of things each player ought to own for themselves. The DMG and MM are more "strongly recommended" than strictly essential, because they're extremely handy if you suddenly need help.
You know what I feel like swooping in and bringing this back on course! As such out of left field suggestion since well it is a fun Monster Race and it is nice how it is handled in 4e.
The Raavasta I would like to see be statted out as a Player Race. Though hell doesn't need to be PHB3 be content with a DDI article. I think too all their trickery could work well with both Psionics and Shadow.
I can't think about Raavastas without thinking about Shemeska (the poster, not the fictional character), and that makes me, honestly, a bit ill. I don't know why.
Rakshasa and Raavasta characters are just the result of breeding Tieflings with Shifters, right? :P (Plus, they have the souls of Devas, only evil.)
I would say if you had to compare them ability wise to other races they be a combo of Mind Flayer (psychic abilities), Doppelganger (Change Shape) and Gnome (being able to go invisible when attacked).
That is actually one of the reasons I would like to see how they would be handled as a PC Race since they do have a wide-swath of pretty powerful abilities. So be interesting to see how they all balanced out.
2.) I would rather stick needles in my eyes than see the return of that race.
[Bad German Accent] Zat ken be arrrrranged! [/Bad German Accent]
I liked them.
I liked there fluff.
I can see why some people didn't like them, but to each their own.
Personally, I would never have bothered to update Goliaths.
So, Core is now everything published by Wizards? How does the Magic Cards fit into all this?
Now you're just being silly.
I'm sure Wizards will design other races, because wouldn't you know it, I'm not their only customer. However, this is a list of races I'd actually be interested in personally:
Doppelganger/Changeling (No need for both, one or the other)
Goblin
Kobold
Elan (only because we need Psionic races and I can't think of any other interesting Psionic race, I didn't really like these guys)
Kalashtar (In the Eberron Player's Guide)
A new alien/weird flavoured Psionic race.
A new race for ki, something interesting with unique flavour.
I expect we'll see the gith as they're an obvious choice, Illumians would not surprise me.
And I'd really rather they found something other than Raptorans, Dromites and Thri-Keen to put into the book.
Our ideas on the other PHB3 races are might change a little though once we see what new monster races are presented in the back of the Monster Manual II and once WotC announces what campaign setting will be released after Eberron.
Now you're just being silly.
I was trying to match the bases of the argument.
I can't think about Raavastas without thinking about Shemeska (the poster, not the fictional character), and that makes me, honestly, a bit ill. I don't know why.
I love you too.
I love you too.
lol It's not personal... I think... Well, it's probably not. And I'm sure you're nice in person.
They fit the Shadow and Psionic power source well.
Yes. *nods*
Brain in a Jar.
They fit the Shadow and Psionic power source well.
Yes. *nods*
How did you nod?
You're a brain in a Jar!
The races in PHB3 wil have some connection to these power sources.
My guesses?
Shadar-Kai (Shadow)
Githzerai (KI and Psionic)
Maenad (Psionic)
Illumian (from Races of Destiny, because it is the pet of one of the designers)
1 WTF? (because the designers will create a brand new race)
Maybe a sixth and seventh race. Githyanki and Minotaur might be possible.
Doppelgangers and Warforged will be introduced in the Eberron Player's Guide.
Half-Giants and Thri-Kreen will be reserved for a future Dark Sun Player's Guide.
- Githyanki
- Githzerai
- Elan or Xeph
- Dromite
- Spirit Folk
- Vanara
It also gives you a whole range of different types of races...
Otherwise, I haven't a clue, and I like that. I like to be pleasantly surprised on what sorts of things they give in the Player's Handbook.
I expect that Doppelgangers and one other "monster" race (possibly, from a future Monster Manual) can be expected in PH3. (This would allow for "Changelings" and Psionics to be used in Eberron at the same time, and would save space in the EPG.) As for the rest, ie the all new/revamped from the pact races, I have little idea. I kind of favor the idea of Kenku. I basically hated most of the Expanded Psionics Handbook races though, except for the Giths, but I am kind of put off that most everybody assume that they will be in the Ki/Psi PHB (though, I agree that it would be an excellent choice.)
So, I personally hope that all new races come into the fray, whether from 3.5 or all-new. I also hope that they are not stupid.
Duergar - Featured in the EPH 3.5 and getting a partial writeup in MM2
Gith(zerai/yanki) - Psionics and Ki appropriate
Shadar-kai - If shadow is featured in this book, shadar-kai are a must.
Illumians - They're playtesting Dual classing in April for PH3. Illumians would be pretty good choices for dual classing; like half-elves are great multiclassers.
Doppelgangers - I'm thinking these would fit well with the options for classes, tie well into eberron and are flavorful enough to warrant it. they too would play well into dual classing Also, I'm fairly certain we'll probably see more shifters, warforged, and Kalash'tar in the EbPG.
--This will also be a good place to probably feature Thri-keen with a MM Write-up and gem dragons.--
As for classes
Hexblade - could make for a good shadow defender
Psyblade - Psionic Striker because its the obvious choice
Psywarrior - Psyonic Defender, to feature the other side of Psionics
Empath - I remember seeing this name too, and makes sense for Psionic Leader
-----
Ninja - Shadow Striker? Probably my least informed of guesses. A better choice would probably be...
Psion - Psionic Controller; would handle the whole mind domination angle they want to focus on with Psionics in particular.
-----
Monk - Ki striker
Necromancer - Shadow Controller
Shugenja - Ki leader since the water group had that as a sub-role, maybe they'll play on it. Otherwise, they'll name it something different, but still have the class type.
That would make for 2-3 shadow classes (leaving room for a third or fourth in the campaign setting of the year), 3-4 Psionic classes (to fit the 2-3 races), and 2 Ki classes (because why feature it as a PH3 power source with only 1 class of its type?). Also, it accounts for 2 defenders, 2 leaders, 2 controllers and 2 strikers (or 1 controller and 3 strikers) which totals the 8 (so far) classes in each PH.
It is also my belief that it is not in the nature of Monks to be strikers. However, I will allow for them to have Striker as their secondary role.
Whew, good thing you'll allow it; since the dev's have said it will be a ki striker (quote forthcoming). I would see samurai as a ki defender before monk, but I could also see the monk as a barbarian-style class with parts in defender; but I wouldn't put it so much as a primary role.
Githyanki
Githzerai
Illumian
Rakshasa
Shadar-Kai
Other possibilities are the duergar, dark one and elan. While the rakshasa is a bit of a wild card, its current status as the 'corrupted deva' hints at it being a potential PC race. That list doesn't include any small or 'big' races, but it's hard to think of standout ones. Maybe kobolds, but I think those, along with the likes of hobgoblins and orcs, will be saved for a "Savage Species" book.
My pick for PHB3 races is (assuming five are included)
Githyanki
Githzerai
Illumian
Rakshasa
Shadar-Kai
Other possibilities are the duergar, dark one and elan. While the rakshasa is a bit of a wild card, its current status as the 'corrupted deva' hints at it being a potential PC race. That list doesn't include any small or 'big' races, but it's hard to think of standout ones. Maybe kobolds, but I think those, along with the likes of hobgoblins and orcs, will be saved for a "Savage Species" book.
I still think the Dromite is the small race, and the Gith should just be one race with the Yanki and Zerai casts, like how the Shifters are split.
I still think the Dromite is the small race, and the Gith should just be one race with the Yanki and Zerai casts, like how the Shifters are split.
That's possible, and it would make room for another race. On the other side, the shifter races are very similar, while the gith races are quite different - at least as different as elves and eladrin. So I can see Wizards going either way.
That's possible, and it would make room for another race. On the other side, the shifter races are very similar, while the gith races are quite different - at least as different as elves and eladrin. So I can see Wizards going either way.
I would then vote for a name change if they are that different. I never really got into them, they seemed to be Monsters to me, not PC Races. Gith and something else, or maybe shortened, Giyanki and gizarai, perhaps, or just the endings, Yanki and Zarai
I'm no sure how crazy I am about this race...
Thoughts?
I like the mutable nature. I also really like the Genasi and consider Extra Manifestation a "must have" feat.
I hope to see roughly 2/3rds classic races and 1/3rd new races.
I also want to see more races in PHB3 than in PHB2.
PHB1 had 8, Human, Elf, Half-Elf, Eladrin, Dwarf, Dragonborn, Tiefling, and Halfling.
PHB2 had 5, Deva, Goliath, Gnome, Shifter, and Half-orc. 6 if you count Longtooth and Razorclaw as separate races.
I'd really like to see PH3 have 8-9 races. I'd like them to basically say, 'Oh, yeah, we cut back on races in PHB2 to make room for racial PPs, but since we only have to do them for the new races now, we're going to do more races.'
So, Here's what I hope to see.
Keep in mind, I'm hoping for PHB3 to be Psionics heavy and 2010 to be Dark Sun year.
Races
Githyanki
Githzerai
Thri-kreen
Half-Dwarf (Mul)
Raptoran
Wilden
New Race 2 - Psionic Race
New Race 3 - Some sort of Giant Anthropomorphic Pengiun, with Eye Lazors.
Eight classes, I'd guess. Four of one type and two of two others, perhaps. Shadow, Ki, and Psionic. I could see Witches and Ninjas here.
I'd like to see an animal-like race. Unlike our human-looking options from PH2. And unlike some of you, I'm not much of a fan of bugs or half-race variants. So, I'll hope for Nezumi or Catpeople, or Lupins. I'd be surprised to get them, though. The Shades they bring up seem likely. I guess Thri-kreen would be a good fit (for bugs w/psionics). PHB3 is a long way off. I'd kinda hope they stay away from races we already have, yet understand that if you don't have Insider- you then don't get the racial feats and info. from Dragon.
We can only speculate and hope for the best.
Most of the ideas in this thread sound pretty tasty, anyways.
I'm not much of a fan of bugs or half-race variants. So, I'll hope for Nezumi or Catpeople, or Lupins.
Er...aren't these contradictory statements? You are not for half-races but you want a half-rat, half-cat or half-wolf?
Most fokelore beings had at least some, and in quite a few cases a lot of resembance to humans be have always be considered different. This is the same thing.
Elan, Maenad, Xeph and Kalashtar could all be combinded into one race; Kalashtar being from Eberron and the more popluar, it should be the race's
namesake.
Dromite and Thri-kreen could also be combined into one race.
Gith1
Gith2
Shadar-Kai
something new / dromites
( something new if they handle Gith like Shifters)
Githyanki
Githzerai
Wilden
New Race 2 - Psionic Race
New Race 3 - Ki Race
I can see that list being available in PHB3, with Muls available in the Dark Sun Player's Guide and Thri-kreen available in either MM2 or MM3 as an NPC stat-block at the back of the book. I'd then expect to see a Dragon article when Dark Sun came out, rebalancing the thri-kreen stat-block for players.
If my prediction were true, we'd have 2 Psionic-related races, 2 Ki-related races and 1 Primal related race. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new Arcane or Primal class for the Wilden to break the idea that each power source will get 4 classes each.
Elan, Maenad, Xeph and Kalashtar could all be combinded into one race; Kalashtar being from Eberron and the more popluar, it should be the race's
namesake.
Oh come on, Elan are much more popular than your puny Kalashtar (Who are Devas in any case :P )
Whilst an interesting idea, in practice it doesn't really work simply because the only thing they have in common is Psionics.
We have a race that's immortal, a race that throws bolts of energy (Aka Dragonborn), a race that possesses ancestral knowledge, and a race that's quick.
Mixing them together could create a race made out of awesome, but it's more likely to create a mess.
Dromite and Thri-kreen could also be combined into one race.
Now this I can agree too.
Dromites are small, cute, humanoid insect people. Thri-kreen are big, scarry, four-armed insect people. saying they should be the same race is like saying elves and dwarves should be the same race, since they're both mammals.
Anyway, my theory: PHBIII, psionic and ki characters. Races: Dromites, Elan, Gith (with two subtypes), illumians, Changelings. PHBIV, shadow and elemental characters. Races: Shadar-Kai, darkfolk, kenku, and two elemental-themed races (?). Thri-kreen would show up in the Darksun player's guide. Kalashtar would show up in the Eberron book. An undead race or race-modifying feat tree would be published in dragon, or in a new campaign setting.
Dromites are small, cute, humanoid insect people. Thri-kreen are big, scarry, four-armed insect people. saying they should be the same race is like saying elves and dwarves should be the same race, since they're both mammals.
I agree. Leave the Thri Kreen for the Dark Sun setting and bring on the Dromite.
Choice of two stat boosts would make them good at anything, but otherwise so-so class features would keep them from overshadowing humans or other 2stat races.
I can see that list being available in PHB3, with Muls available in the Dark Sun Player's Guide and Thri-kreen available in either MM2 or MM3 as an NPC stat-block at the back of the book. I'd then expect to see a Dragon article when Dark Sun came out, rebalancing the thri-kreen stat-block for players.
If my prediction were true, we'd have 2 Psionic-related races, 2 Ki-related races and 1 Primal related race. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new Arcane or Primal class for the Wilden to break the idea that each power source will get 4 classes each.
No way. If Dark is the 2010 setting, or even if it's the 2011 setting, the Thri-Kreen will be in the DSPG, guaranteed. WotC's not stupid. Well, not completely stupid. They know that they won't be able to get away with a severe backlash if they bring out a Dark Sun setting without the Thri-Kreen as a fully playable PC race from the beginning.
And I really don't get the love for the Dromite here. They struck me as pretty forgettable. But then again, I feel the same way about the Elan, Maened, and a lot of the late 3.5 races.
I don't know. Dromite's gimmick is they're the psychic little people. Thri-kreen's gimmick is that they have four arms. If you made them medium, then they wouldn't be dromite's anymore. If you made them small, then the weapon restructions would pretty severely undercut the entire point of four arms, and in any event they wouldn't seem all that much like thri-kreen, anymore, as they've always been of the 'big and intimidating type.
Dromites are small, cute, humanoid insect people. Thri-kreen are big, scarry, four-armed insect people. saying they should be the same race is like saying elves and dwarves should be the same race, since they're both mammals.
I agree with some of that. Dromites and Thri-kreen should NOT be mashed together. Problem is, Thri-kreen aren't going to get their 4-armed gimmick anyway. There's no possible way to reasonably balance that in 4e. If they got that, they could have NOTHING else...not even ability score bonuses or skill bonuses...and they'd still probably be overpowered.
Any race that was originally that powerful in 3.5 is going to get nerfed HARD for 4e. And probably won't even be recognizable stat-wise. But, I'm perfectly ok with that, as long as what results is still fun and interesting overall.
-
As for forgettable races... For me, anything with an LA was completely forgettable. Total waste of time, completely not fun in any way...but that's obviously different for others. Nearly everything that didn't "originate" in Eberron was forgettable, because the rest was so cliche and overdone as to be cookie-cutter, fluff-wise...and simply stupid, mechanically.
I agree with some of that. Dromites and Thri-kreen should NOT be mashed together. Problem is, Thri-kreen aren't going to get their 4-armed gimmick anyway. There's no possible way to reasonably balance that in 4e. If they got that, they could have NOTHING else...not even ability score bonuses or skill bonuses...and they'd still probably be overpowered.
See, to me the easy solution to the 4 arm thing is to treat it exactly as WotC treats TWF now. Just say all the arms are fully functional, and just restrict them to a max of 2 weapons, 2 implements, & 2 magic items usable at a time, with the explanation being something like the arms would get in the way of each other otherwise. But the player can choose which set of arms to use at any given time.
See, to me the easy solution to the 4 arm thing is to treat it exactly as WotC treats TWF now. Just say all the arms are fully functional, and just restrict them to a max of 2 weapons, 2 implements, & 2 magic items usable at a time, with the explanation being something like the arms would get in the way of each other otherwise. But the player can choose which set of arms to use at any given time.
Or limit the 4 arm advantage to allow them to use 2 versatile weapons with the 2-handed grip bonus at once but they can't use 4 one-handed weapons. Also they couldn't wield a weapon and shield on the same side. They have four arms but they're still fairly close together on each side, enough to get a better grip on a weapon but not fully weild anything effectively other than maybe a dagger or other small weapon.
See, to me the easy solution to the 4 arm thing is to treat it exactly as WotC treats TWF now. Just say all the arms are fully functional, and just restrict them to a max of 2 weapons, 2 implements, & 2 magic items usable at a time, with the explanation being something like the arms would get in the way of each other otherwise. But the player can choose which set of arms to use at any given time.
Dangerous idea. Just think of how bad the item and proficiency and every other bonus is when it comes to TWF...then double that problem. That's not even to mention the notion of extra rings or bracers or what-not. 4 arms that are equally useful are terrible. 4 arms where the second set is only half as useful, still bad.
At best, you could say that you can treat both sets of arms equally, but that only one set applies at any time...so as to keep them from exploiting the additional magical items, or dual-wielding two-handed weapons. That sounds a tad more complex than 4e goes for though.
Dangerous idea. Just think of how bad the item and proficiency and every other bonus is when it comes to TWF...then double that problem. That's not even to mention the notion of extra rings or bracers or what-not. 4 arms that are equally useful are terrible. 4 arms where the second set is only half as useful, still bad.
At best, you could say that you can treat both sets of arms equally, but that only one set applies at any time...so as to keep them from exploiting the additional magical items, or dual-wielding two-handed weapons. That sounds a tad more complex than 4e goes for though.
Uh .... that's exactly what I said to do. All four arms are useful, but can only use a max of two items at a time, or only one 2-handed weapon. And it's no more complex than a lot of the stuff introduced in PH2.
I don't know. Dromite's gimmick is they're the psychic little people. Thri-kreen's gimmick is that they have four arms. If you made them medium, then they wouldn't be dromite's anymore. If you made them small, then the weapon restructions would pretty severely undercut the entire point of four arms, and in any event they wouldn't seem all that much like thri-kreen, anymore, as they've always been of the 'big and intimidating type.
Actually, this is an interesting thing to play with.
A small creature with 4 arms can't wield a reach weapon+ shield (to name 1 abuse) but he can dual-wield versitile (2 handed, to it) weapons, or quad-wield scimitars. (with some kind of rule that treats your offhand weapon as having an offhand weapon of it's own, or something)
A two arm race in 4e that wields two weapons isn't getting very much advantage, unless it has class powers that allow attacks with two weapons.
Even if I wield weapons in four hands, the best I can hope for is a power that lets me attack with two weapons. So, at most, I've gained some versatility in which weapons I use for each attack, but that's about it.
I don't see the problem with a four arm race in 4e.
A two arm race in 4e that wields two weapons isn't getting very much advantage, unless it has class powers that allow attacks with two weapons.
Even if I wield weapons in four hands, the best I can hope for is a power that lets me attack with two weapons. So, at most, I've gained some versatility in which weapons I use for each attack, but that's about it.
The kicker is when you can start wielding a two-hander AND something else. That's where the game breaks down.
Uh .... that's exactly what I said to do. All four arms are useful, but can only use a max of two items at a time, or only one 2-handed weapon. And it's no more complex than a lot of the stuff introduced in PH2.
I may have quoted the wrong post. I'd intended to quote a post about someone using two versatile weapons at once. Bad juju.
Sorry about that.
The kicker is when you can start wielding a two-hander AND something else. That's where the game breaks down.
An Epic feat to allow this would be cool.
Dromite-Ken could be a small race that can wear weapons as like a medium creature thanks to 4 arms.
Just some thoughs...
An Epic feat to allow this would be cool.
Eternal Defender level 24 ability.
I would really like to se Dark Ones as PC races for whichever PHB has the shadow power source.
in fact, i find it hard to imagine why wotc wouldn't do this.
in fact, i find it hard to imagine why wotc wouldn't do this.
I hope, because the whole dark step thing screams of awesome, plus, they look bat-ugly and evil. None of that, oooh I'm a tiefling and have horns....
So yeah Dark Ones with Dark Step as their racial power as PC's. Please.
If they bring back Illumians, I hope they make them more interesting fluff wise; they were aesthetically cool (depending on the artist) but the writing behind em always seem weak to me, we need to avoid having too many boring near-human Star Trek races.
I thought Manual of the Planes pretty much already wrote Illumians off as a dead race...
I thought Manual of the Planes pretty much already wrote Illumians off as a dead race...
Not really, it went on to say that they still exist in the world as a diminished race.
Bel
No. When I say I don't care for half-races, I mean Half-orcs, half-elves, and half-dragons. These can be good for pcs- but I just don't see them as races on their own. You can love them, I don't.
I see gnolls as gnolls, not half-hyenas. And they never had to mate with humans to come into existance. Catpeople, yeah they're humanoid, but not something who's origions are from a human gett'n on with a cat. Same with the ratlike Nezumi.
- Back to topic at hand. Monk is being playtested. I'd guess Monk is getting it's 4e makeover. Dromite seems more plausible than Thri-kreen. Do to the arms. I'm not familiar with Wilden.
Er...aren't these contradictory statements? You are not for half-races but you want a half-rat, half-cat or half-wolf?- G
No. When I say I don't care for half-races, I mean Half-orcs, half-elves, and half-dragons. These can be good for pcs- but I just don't see them as races on their own. You can love them, I don't.
I see gnolls as gnolls, not half-hyenas. And they never had to mate with humans to come into existance. Catpeople, yeah they're humanoid, but not something who's origions are from a human gett'n on with a cat. Same with the ratlike Nezumi.
I have to agree with this, cept for the Half Elf. I think that humans, being the skuzzy knights slaying dragons, has been with elven maidens (who cease to be maidens afterward) that they rescue afterward enough to dot the landscape with their progeny. I think that a Half Elf (who would call themselves a new name *cough* hint hint *cough*) society would emerge after a bit, and they would "breed true." I don't want to take away the fantasy of doing the elven maiden, it is part and parcel of fantasy.
But the half orc, that is turned around. Humans are heroes, and Orcs are monsters, so while a human gets rewarded, the Orc simply takes. Now having them breed true may be a good way to lesson the impact of their history and how they came to be, but the history isn't gonna be erased.
I never liked draconians either, and the new Dragonborn are better envisioned, but seem to have been a created just to fill a spot for the Half Orc, which Wizards brought back anyway despite the fact that they was not really needed.
I agree that the deluge of half creatures needs to be taken back a notch. We have the Shifters now, so the Cat Folk are not to be. The Gnolls should stay in the MM, though calling them a half race is like saying hairy people are half wolf. The Nezumi might be a race to go with the Kenku and others for a future PHB, a theme to do more with shadows and some of the more elusive races than what has come before. PHB4 at the earliest.
I don't like the Mul (Half Dwarf) or the Half Giant either. One was a race that seem thrown in for variety in a setting that took away other races for no good reason, and the other was a power grab. I think the Half Giant is represented now by the Goliath.
The Gnolls should stay in the MM, though calling them a half race is like saying hairy people are half wolf.
Wow. If you think gnolls look just like "hairy people", I never want to visit your neighborhood in indianapolis. ;)
For PHB3 I'm hoping for an undead PC race if the shadow source occurs then. I don't want a sissy nice undead race, but a race (similar to Drow or Tieflings) where PCs from that race are just good aligned outcasts.
I've liked gnolls for a long time, but sadly I can't think of any classes that make good use of both DEX and CON.
I play a level 12 Gnoll Barbarian and he ROCKS!
CON is good because I chose Rageblood. The racial speed of 7 and racial charging power make him a supercharging deathmachine.
DEX is good because I still only wear light armor, and class bonous or no, a decently high dex still helps my AC.
I know most people would only look to races with a STR bonus for barbarians, but it allowed me to put a decent stat in CON and put my highest in STR. As of right now, my CON is higher than my STR.
However, with a +3 Bloodclaw weapon, power attack, and my STR, I still do +25 damage whenever anything says x[w]+STR.
Bel
But, what about NEW races?
I would like to see, races like the Espers of Alara (from Magic) or maybe the Undeads of WoW...
With a psi/ki/or shadow-touch, of course.
maybe the Undeads of WoW...
With a psi/ki/or shadow-touch, of course.
Blaspheme?
If shadow comes in the PH3 then I expect Shadar-Kai and would like to see Dark Ones as well
I want more exotic races, myself. Gith are all fine and good, but kalasthar from eberron and shadar kai are just modified humans in my eyes. I want some monsterous or exciting new races, along the lines of the wilden.
If I want to play a bee-creature, or a kenku, the game should support me in that way, but having a human-looking PC with magic origins does not excite me.
I hope we get some good wilden art, at least one more exotic race past the githyanki or githerzai.
Monstrous races are fine by me If they are 'civilized' to some extent and not just 'death and destruction' kind of races such as Orcs.
Never heard of Kenku
Crow-People more or less
Classes:
Soulknife (Psychic Striker)
Wilder (Psychic Controller)
Empath (Psychic Leader)
Telekine (Psychic Defender)
Deathknight (Shadow Defender)
Necromancer (Shadow Controller)
Monk (Ki Striker)
Guardian (Ki Defender)
That's a bit of a contradiction, don't you think? Wilders are all about losing control; not being a controller. If their 3e role is an indicator, they might be a second psi striker, but ranged, unlike the soulknife, which would certainly be melee.
Crow-People more or less
If they were good at being rogues... keep them away from my Dark Ones. AWAYYY I SAY.
Crow-People more or less
I thought kenku were four-armed humanoids. Any reason why I'd think that?
I thought kenku were four-armed humanoids. Any reason why I'd think that?
No, the only four armed humanoid I can think of is the Throon from Arduin.
Bel
Gnolls will probably make good Monks, though it's still speculation that Monks will be Con/Dex or Con/Wis. That's the most common speculation though. Still, Gnolls, like other "Monster-Monster Races" belong in the MM and getting write-ups in Dragon, not in a PG or PH (and now that Dragon is going Player-Focused, this may be a more common occurrence).
The same goes for Kobolds, Lizardfolk, Goblinoids (lest they make it in Eberron PG), etc. Other "Player-Monster Races," like Doppelgangers, Gith, and Shadar-kai, and certainly the Gnomes, Shifters, and Warforged, were placed there as place-holders until they could get hardcover write-ups. The reason Shadar-kai got a Dragon write-up is evidence to me that they won't get a full book write-up until PH4, when Shadow is complete, but got an early write-up because people still want to play them a lot - like Warforged did (it's a sneak preview of something the future has in store).
Somebody mentioned Blaspheme. I've been thinking the same thing myself, actually. It's probably the only Undead Race I think they could get away with right now (they have sentience, aren't necessarily evil, aren't so powerful that they would have too many special abilities to cover, and are supposed to make good NPC characters who interact with the PCs before their fight). I'd call them on Str/Int, an ability score category that needs more love, and fits with their cunning and power compared to other Undead and to Flesh Golems. Would make them good Assault Swordmages, and Tactical and Resourceful Warlords too. If there was a Necromancer build using Str and Int, I could see them dabbling in Necromancy even. It would have to be a very unconventional build - focused on manipulating your own body. I'd still see that as Con/Int at the most though, but there's already a good monster that describes that type of Necromancer - the Flesh Cult.
Dark Ones will come either sooner or later, but they'll be a small race, and probably not before Shadar-kai get hardcover'd. Dromite deserve the small race roll in PH3; Dark Ones probably will have to wait for PH4. This would mean we'll probably get the Necromancy side of Shadow first: something that would make sense, since we just got the Illusionist Wizard, and thus Shadow-Illusions can wait another year, while Necromancy has yet to be fully built (though it's gotten a handful of powers in a Dragon article).
I'm seeing that Flesh Cult Necromancer working as well with Shadar-kai as Swordmage with Eladrin: that is, they'd probably get support feats to make up for the fact it doesn't use Dex. That's probably the closest Shadar-kai would get to Necromancy, especially because Shadar-kai and the Raven Queen hate true Undead (which Flesh Scamps and Organ Wretches aren't). This would mean that Shadar-kai, though they wouldn't get their hardcover write-up for another year, could still take advantage of the first classes of Shadow. They'd be better off with the latter two classes, but that's alright. It means you could play your Shadar-kai from Dragon with Shadow at the get-go.
I can also see Necromancer taking up some Defiler elements, and thus working it's way into the defiling of nature metaplot that 4e seems to be taking, with the Primal-Aberrant war. What this means is that it fits into the racial themes of PH3, with Psionic and Gith and Wildens, and thus we'll see races that fit in with Necromancer more likely than other Shadow-races. Get us some more of the Shadowfell actually delved into: it's largely unknown still, unlike the Feywild.
So if you followed what I've mentioned, I've said Gith, Wilden, Dromite, Blaspheme. That leaves one more race, and it'll be a a Ki or Shadow one most likely. Unless they separate Githyanki from Githzerai as two races, unlike with what they did with Shifters. Alternatively, it could be something like Thri-kreen that they wanted to push ahead in the PH rather than keep to the DSPG. I doubt that though. I'd say more likely is something like Vanara, but Vanara are small and we've already got Dromite as the small race. I'm not sure.
Kenku overlap too much with Shadar-kai now - they're too associated with Ravens, and are Dex/Int. Besides, the only thing that would make them a reasonable choice over Shadar-kai would be wings, which they lack, despite being crow-people. I believe that much of their culture will probably be integrated into the Shadar-kai. Kenku would be an interesting creature a la the Drider in relation to the Shadar-kai though.
Uh .... what? Kenku have nothing in common with the Shadar-kai, except they look like the symbol of the most popular Shadar-kai god. Different culture, different beliefs, different homelands, etc. I mean seriously, the only thing you even list as being common traits are the bird thing and Dex/Int. So what, since both the Shadar-kai and Eladrin can teleport and are both Dex/Int, that makes them exactly the same?
No. Just, no.
However, with monks being psionic, I think there is now no freaking way we will not have the Githzeri, since that race's major schtik is monks and psionic. And Githzeri without Githyanki would be silly.
Well, now that Ki has been chonked out the window, it loks like specifically "Asian" themed things may not make it, especially since WotC got rid of ki in a an effort to distance themselves from the ki=asian mindset. A Samurai is just a fighter with a specific style, same with a ninja and a rogue.
They've been saying all along that not all ki classes would be asian and not all asian classes would be ki. I bet money that we will still see the ninja and possibly other "asian" classes.
However, with monks being psionic, I think there is now no freaking way we will not have the Githzeri, since that race's major schtik is monks and psionic. And Githzeri without Githyanki would be silly.
Agreed.
Well, we've seen one now: Wilden.
I'm no sure how crazy I am about this race...
Great concept, but the name needs work. It makes them sound like a subrace of Shifters. The name should immediately scream to players "plant people", but not in a sledgehammer sort of way. Mandrakes?
Dromite and Thri-kreen could also be combined into one race.
I think at the very least, the Dromite could use another set of limbs to make them seem more insectoid. Either another pair of legs or a vestigial set of arms. The Thri-Keen could still return later, its just that an armored Dromite needs to look a lot different from an armored gnome.
If they bring back Illumians, I hope they make them more interesting fluff wise; they were aesthetically cool (depending on the artist) but the writing behind em always seem weak to me, we need to avoid having too many boring near-human Star Trek races.
They have potential, but I think they overlap a little too much with the Deva right now.
Blaspheme?
Somebody mentioned Blaspheme. I've been thinking the same thing myself, actually. It's probably the only Undead Race I think they could get away with right now (they have sentience, aren't necessarily evil, aren't so powerful that they would have too many special abilities to cover, and are supposed to make good NPC characters who interact with the PCs before their fight). I'd call them on Str/Int, an ability score category that needs more love, and fits with their cunning and power compared to other Undead and to Flesh Golems. Would make them good Assault Swordmages, and Tactical and Resourceful Warlords too. If there was a Necromancer build using Str and Int, I could see them dabbling in Necromancy even. It would have to be a very unconventional build - focused on manipulating your own body. I'd still see that as Con/Int at the most though, but there's already a good monster that describes that type of Necromancer - the Flesh Cult.
For the Undead race? I can't find much info about them because google keeps on giving me pages about how Dungeons and Dragons is a blasphemy against Jesus, so the name itself would have to go. But I got the gist that they're sentient zombies/homunculi similar to Frankenstein's monster. Is that correct? If so, that'd be pretty darn perfect for a big Undead playable race.
I'd say more likely is something like Vanara, but Vanara are small and we've already got Dromite as the small race. I'm not sure.
Vanara seem to be a race based on Son Goku/Hanuman, which would certainly fulfill an Asian-inspired race if they expanded upon that. They could always just make the Vanara Mediums.
Personally, if they wanted to do another, I'd really like to see a race of minor Djinn as a playable race with their racial ability being able to conjure up temporary items that only last a short amount of time. Djinn as the wild Arabic spirits, not doofy fairies stuck in a bottle. There is a lot of great mythology about Djinns that could be drawn from easily.
Well, now that Ki has been chonked out the window, it loks like specifically "Asian" themed things may not make it, especially since WotC got rid of ki in a an effort to distance themselves from the ki=asian mindset. A Samurai is just a fighter with a specific style, same with a ninja and a rogue.
Eh, just because Ki isn't there doesn't mean everything related to Asia has to be chucked out the window. You can say Warlord are Samurai and Ninjas are Asassins or Rogues, but you can't pass off elves and dwarves as Tengu, Jiang-Shi, Naga, or Yukionna
Raptoran
I really want to see HEAVILY redesigned and rebalanced Raptoran return, but more as a hawk version of the Kenku than elves with wings. Also, their flight and powerful eyesight would be mitigated by several major redesigns, namely - the wings and arms are fused, so they can't take any action requiring arms while in flight. Their bones are hollow and their builds are lighter, which means they take hits like schoolgirls.
Can anyone think of a technological-based race besides the old gnomes to give Eberron some damn mechanics, by the way?
Personally, if I had to pick right now, I'd probably do:
* Wilden (Renamed, though)
* Giths (Both versions but counted as one race and two subraces)
* Dromites (Tweaked to be more insectoid and have a second set of arms or legs)
* Raptorans (Heavily reworked to be more bird of prey-like and having their flight be less versatile).
* Blasmpheme (But with a more Google-friendly name)
* Either Djinn, Vanara (altered), or an amphibious race.
Can anyone think of a technological-based race besides the old gnomes to give Eberron some damn mechanics, by the way?
Kobolds have had a long tradition as trap makers and users. I nominate Kobolds as the new tinkers.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1061993&highlight=Tinker+Kobolds
However, with monks being psionic, I think there is now no freaking way we will not have the Githzeri, since that race's major schtik is monks and psionic. And Githzeri without Githyanki would be silly.
No it wouldn't the first time the Githzerai were ever written up as a PC races was back in 2e in the Planescape Campaign Setting. They didn't even bother with Githyanki as a PC race until the Guide to the Astral Plane. And in 4e they came out with the Elf as a PC race first in the PHB, and only bothered with the Drow as a PC race later.
Githzeri without Githyanki would be silly.
I don't know. Githyanki seem more villainous to me then Githzerai. I could see Githyanki being added as a Dragon article.
FYI, PH3 cover: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/news_20090519.jpg
Ok, so we can pretty much confirm Gith and Minotaurs...
I wonder what class that Minotaur is...
Ok, so we can pretty much confirm Gith and Minotaurs...
I wonder what class that Minotaur is...
I'd guess at either a divine or psionic class. With the metal armor they're not likely to be a primal class. Who knows he may be the new version of the psychic warrior/defender class. I'm assuming his weapon is a minotaur racial version of the warhammer (though s someone else pointed out it does look like a lamp post).
Bel
I've participated in speculation that the Minotaur is a Blackguard, a heavy-armor divine striker.
I'm not sure, the Blackguard was an evil paladin previously, something the paladin can now cover on its own since it's no longer required to be Lawful Stupid.
Also for the most part they seem to avoid giving monsters class names and they have Eladrin Blackguard in a Dungeon adventure, and Duergar Blackguard in the MM2 as generic monster types rather than named NPCs.