I know several people have mentioned that racial feat selections in many cases felt thin, lacking or incomplete.
Has there been any mention as to expanding on the racial feat selections for the already existing races from PHB I and PHB II to come out in PHB III or another source?
I'm sure this has been brought up at some point and I just missed it.
Thanks!
Player's Handbook Races: Dragonborn (January 19, 2010)
The Power books have a fair amount of racial feats usually.
That was true for Martial Power where the average race had about 8 feats (and a Paragon Path), but Arcane Power and then Divine Power cut down the racial feats to about 3, and then Primal Power cut that down even further to just 1.
Feats that relate to a race's theme and mechanics on a general level will be easier to include in a race book than in power source books and are probably a better place to focus racial feat design than class-specific or power source-specific ones.
I would imagine that the forth comming Player's Handbook Races series of books will help with that. They are starting with:
Player's Handbook Races: Dragonborn (January 19, 2010)
There's a Tiefling book in June too. They're only 32 pages though, so hopefully most of that is crunch.
I think martial power had a lot of racial feats and a lot of racial paragons paths since I think they actually intended to include those in the power source book.
However, theyre is now so many new races from PHB 1, PHB 2, + setting campaign guide that adding a series of feat for each races would just ask for an entire section and frankly power book should introduce new class option not racial option.
Racial powerbook then really make sense.
As for why dragonborn and tiefling first despite they had a lot of feat already is mostly because :
1) They are popular race (they want to sell book)
2) They are in the first PHB (make sens to start from the begining, who also contain the favorite class).
The real question is, why not start with true favorite race like elf and dwarf. My feeling is that they want to get the groove going with dragonborn and tiefling, adjust the format if needed and then move on to the most popular races of all.
Hopefully, they do a Human Race Handbook.
The Power books have a fair amount of racial feats usually.
That was true for Martial Power where the average race had about 8 feats (and a Paragon Path), but Arcane Power and then Divine Power cut down the racial feats to about 3, and then Primal Power cut that down even further to just 1.
It makes more sense to put racial feats in racial books, and put class/power feats in power books. Really if you're a wilden fighter, Martial Power seems like a huge waste of space. I'm glad they switched.
That's probably because there were a lot of complaints about how many of MP's class-specific feats had a racial requirement even when the rationale for the requirement was tenuous. Feats that relate to a race's theme and mechanics on a general level will be easier to include in a race book than in power source books and are probably a better place to focus racial feat design than class-specific or power source-specific ones.
I agree. I've been racking my brains to figure out why Tactical Inspiration is an Eladrin feat ...
As for why dragonborn and tiefling first despite they had a lot of feat already is mostly because :1) They are popular race (they want to sell book)
2) They are in the first PHB (make sens to start from the begining, who also contain the favorite class).
The real question is, why not start with true favorite race like elf and dwarf.
Many of the other races, Elves and Dwarves in particular, are a well established fantasy trope. I was under the impression that they chose tieflings and dragonborn because there is lots of background fluff to explain for them.
IE: The war
I wouldn't be surprised to see Eladrin, Golioths, Devas, Reverants, and several other somewhat-obscure racial books before we see anything on elves and dwarves.
Makes sense. All that business with Arkhosia and Bael Turath made me wonder what sort of culture the unusual races had. Elves and Dwarves are great and all, but we've seen how they operate time and again throughout the history of high fantasy literature and gaming. I hope the racial books for them toss in some unusual ideas for working with familiar races.
As for why dragonborn and tiefling first despite they had a lot of feat already is mostly because :1) They are popular race (they want to sell book)
2) They are in the first PHB (make sens to start from the begining, who also contain the favorite class).
The real question is, why not start with true favorite race like elf and dwarf.
Many of the other races, Elves and Dwarves in particular, are a well established fantasy trope. I was under the impression that they chose tieflings and dragonborn because there is lots of background fluff to explain for them.
IE: The war
I wouldn't be surprised to see Eladrin, Golioths, Devas, Reverants, and several other somewhat-obscure racial books before we see anything on elves and dwarves.
Revenants won't get any books devoted to them – they're exclusive to the online content. That said, I'm looking forward to books on the various races. The Races of the ____ series from 3.5e was good and all, but it didn't provide enough because it tried to group the races into themes, rather than devoting themselves to a single race. Also, they left races unsupported because they focused on core races, introducing a new "core" race, etc. Though Races of Eberron and Races of the Dragon somewhat subverted that by focusing on more periphery races, and most of the books had monster racial substitution levels and racial writeups in the back of them in case you wanted to play as one of them, but with very little fluff or support in general.
I like this system's Races series books because of those reasons.
Revenants won't get any books devoted to them – they're exclusive to the online content.
Revenants won't get a printed book, but they may get similar treatment in a future online article.
That said, I'm looking forward to books on the various races. The Races of the ____ series from 3.5e was good and all, but it didn't provide enough because it tried to group the races into themes, rather than devoting themselves to a single race. Also, they left races unsupported because they focused on core races, introducing a new "core" race, etc.
I think your hopes for expanded racial coverage might be overly optimistic. The new racial handbooks might focus exclusively on a single race, but they have only 1/6 the page count (32 vs. 192). Also as part of the core line (non-setting specific) what ever information is presented on the culture, history, traditions, etc. of each race will be have to be fairly vague and generic. In the case of the upcoming Dragonborn handbook, I wouldn't expect much more detail than what was already provided through their ecology article in Dragon #365.
Personally I would prefer if WotC still tried to group the races together. I'd much rather have a single 160 page hardbound rule book than five paperbacks. Though what themes would be appropriate for grouping the current races is a more difficult matter.
Revenants won't get any books devoted to them – they're exclusive to the online content.
Revenants won't get a printed book, but they may get similar treatment in a future online article.That said, I'm looking forward to books on the various races. The Races of the ____ series from 3.5e was good and all, but it didn't provide enough because it tried to group the races into themes, rather than devoting themselves to a single race. Also, they left races unsupported because they focused on core races, introducing a new "core" race, etc.
I think your hopes for expanded racial coverage might be overly optimistic. The new racial handbooks might focus exclusively on a single race, but they have only 1/6 the page count (32 vs. 192). Also as part of the core line (non-setting specific) what ever information is presented on the culture, history, traditions, etc. of each race will be have to be fairly vague and generic. In the case of the upcoming Dragonborn handbook, I wouldn't expect much more detail than what was already provided through their ecology article in Dragon #365.
Personally I would prefer if WotC still tried to group the races together. I'd much rather have a single 160 page hardbound rule book than five paperbacks. Though what themes would be appropriate for grouping the current races is a more difficult matter.
I disagree. Based on the Races of Destiny book I have right here, Humans got 27 pages, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs got a combined 17 pages (that's right, less than 10 pages EACH), and Illumians got 40 pages, but that included their initial write-up as well. All the other races got between 1-4 pages, races such as the Aasimar (now the Deva), the Tiefling, the Doppelganger (now the Changeling), etc. These races, for example, greatly benefit from the new system.
Let's look at the make up of htose 27-17-40, since we have the book on hand, shall we?
Humans Total – 27 pages
• A Day in the Life + • Human Psychology – 2 pages
• Human Life – 6 pages
• Society and Culture + • Humans and Other Races – 3 pages
• Religion (including new deities) – 2.5 pages
• History and Folklore – 4.5 pages
• Language – 1.5 pages
• Cities and Settlements – 5.5 pages
• Creating Human Characters – 1 page
Half-Elves and Half-Orcs Total – 17 pages
• A Day in the Life (Half-Elf) + • Half-Elf Psychology – 1 page
• Half-Elf Life – 4 pages
• Half-Elf Society and Culture + • Half-Elves and Other Races – 2 pages
• Half Elf Religion + • Half-Elf History and Folklore + • Half-Elf Language + • Half-Elf Settlements + • Creating Half-Elf Options – 2 pages
• A Day in the Life (Half-Orc) – 1 page
• Half-Orc Psychology – 2 pages
• Half-Orc Life – 2 pages
• Half-Orc Society and Culture + • Half-Orcs and Other Races – 1 page
• Half-Orc Religion + • Half-Orc History and Folklore + • Half-Orc Language + • Half-Orc Settlements – 1 page
• Creating Half-Orc Characters – 2 pages
Illumians Total – 40 pages
• A Day in the Life – 1 page
• Description (includes crunch write-up) – 4 pages
• Psychology – 1 page
• Illumian Life – 3 pages
• Society and Culture (includes various types of settlements) – 12 pages
• Illumian Religion + • Illumian Pantheon (entire new pantheon of deities) – 5 pages
• History and Folklore – 3 pages
• Language (including Illumian names) – 2 page
• Example Cabal: Bloodwing – 2 pages
• Elirhodnas, Shadow Metropolis – 2 pages
• Creating Illumian Characters + • Special Illumian Options + • Illumians as Characters – 1 page
And this doesn't include any of the feats: There's 11 pages of new feats in the book. That's approximately 3 pages of feats per race. A good amount.
What does this mean? Well, the locations should be cut, as should the religions and deities. The Languages should be dropped too, because we're trying to limit languages, and all of them have been details. Examples of the languages seem to be moved into the setting books like Draconomicon, Plane Below, etc.
A Day in the Life would probably be a sidebar in a 4e Race book. Considering that a small thing on the deities that these races tend towards worshiping, I could see half a page.
So while the Humans would probably get their flavourless flavour cut in half (the 3.5e flavour was extremely bland for Humans because they were just expies of real-world humanity, rather than filling a niche of adaptability. Sure, the folkloric stories were nice, but they were something that could fit pretty much anywhere. The Desh cycle of stories seems remarkably similar to the story of the Tieflings – I wouldn't be surprised if the Tiefling ate the Sharakim race when 4e came around.
Half-Elves and Half-Orcs get a huge bonus though in fluff from this sort of book.
The fluff probably will be about 1.5 to the amount from Ecology of the ____. These are player books, and the Ecology articles are aimed towards DMs for setting material, though including expanded Player options (a mixture). That means about half the material in the Ecology articles would actually be included to begin with. There are about 8 pages of fluff in Ecology of the Dragonborn. Let's cut down a page for DM-specific fluff, and double it for the book. 14 pages. Backgrounds are probably part of those 14. Now we have 18 pages left. 15, actually, because 3 pages for title/credits. give 2-3 pages for feats. Now we have 12 pages left, so we have 10 paragon paths and 1 epic destiny. That sounds about right.
What's wrong with that? That's actually MORE information that Races of Destiny gave to it's non-feature races. Humans got 26 pages. This gives them 3 more, and the lose some of the non-essential or desired stuff like deities or towns). Illumians would get about the same amount of material as before (because they lose their write-up and deities and example cabals). Half-Elves and Half-Orcs get the write up they deserve, a full 32 pages, rather than 12 a piece.
This is a lot better than a combination book.
This is a lot better than a combination book.
Except of course for being a flimsy paperback.
Otherwise you make some decent enough points. Still, it would be possible to do all that while also grouping the races into sets of 4-5 and releasing them in hardbound form like the power source series.
This is a lot better than a combination book.
Except of course for being a flimsy paperback.
Otherwise you make some decent enough points. Still, it would be possible to do all that while also grouping the races into sets of 4-5 and releasing them in hardbound form like the power source series.
However, this book is cheap, and will suit your character – you're not paying for material you're not going to even think of using.
By publishing them individually, the player only has to pick up the one that is their character's race.
Still, it would be possible to do all that while also grouping the races into sets of 4-5 and releasing them in hardbound form like the power source series.
However, this book is cheap, and will suit your character – you're not paying for material you're not going to even think of using.
By publishing them individually, the player only has to pick up the one that is their character's race.
True enough, but one could make the same argument for any of the power source books. Why should I have to pay for Druid, Shaman, and Warden material when I'm only playing as a Barbarian? Taken to an even greater extreme, why should we have accessories like PH2? Why not just release each new race and class on its own so no one ever has to pay for material they don't plan on using?
Besides, comparatively a power source book delivers 5x the content for only 3x the cost. Between me and my friends, plus each of us playing different characters in different campaigns much of that material will get used, so I see the hardbound as the better deal. Further more, I also enjoy building theoretical characters. I build far more characters than I could ever hope to play. So even material that never gets used by anyone in my group doesn't feel wasted. Finally, if nothing else, I at least enjoyed reading it. Maybe all that's just one of my personal quirks though.
Still, it would be possible to do all that while also grouping the races into sets of 4-5 and releasing them in hardbound form like the power source series.
However, this book is cheap, and will suit your character – you're not paying for material you're not going to even think of using.
By publishing them individually, the player only has to pick up the one that is their character's race.
True enough, but one could make the same argument for any of the power source books. Why should I have to pay for Druid, Shaman, and Warden material when I'm only playing as a Barbarian? Taken to an even greater extreme, why should we have accessories like PH2? Why not just release each new race and class on its own so no one ever has to pay for material they don't plan on using?
Besides, comparatively a power source book delivers 5x the content for only 3x the cost. Between me and my friends, plus each of us playing different characters in different campaigns much of that material will get used, so I see the hardbound as the better deal. Further more, I also enjoy building theoretical characters. I build far more characters than I could ever hope to play. So even material that never gets used by anyone in my group doesn't feel wasted. Finally, if nothing else, I at least enjoyed reading it. Maybe all that's just one of my personal quirks though.
But remember, it's a lot easier to drop $9.99 in the bucket than it is to pay $34.99. It may not ACTUALLY save you money for content, but it feels like it and is easier to be an impulse buy. I'm not saying that's a good thing from a content POV, but it certainly is from a marketing point.
That aside, I actually do kind of hope they also release compilations of sorts down the line. As a DM, I also would have a vested interest in having access to additional racial fluff, for inspiration on building worlds that would involve these races. Having a good chunk of it all in one place, in a more durable cover, wouldn't be a bad idea. Some sort of Racial Compendium.
These things are being staggered in release, so something like that wouldn't be around for a looong time anyway if it were to be even considered.
The fact that they're paperback is a bit offputting...they'll be far less resistant to abuse, and I'll have to be careful how I use them. But nevertheless, it sort of makes sense. They really are for very specific consumption by players. And it's not like hardcovers really take abuse well anyway.
That aside, I actually do kind of hope they also release compilations of sorts down the line. As a DM, I also would have a vested interest in having access to additional racial fluff, for inspiration on building worlds that would involve these races. Having a good chunk of it all in one place, in a more durable cover, wouldn't be a bad idea. Some sort of Racial Compendium.
These things are being staggered in release, so something like that wouldn't be around for a looong time anyway if it were to be even considered.
Assumably, it's all going to be in the Compendium and the CharBuilder as well...
Assumably, it's all going to be in the Compendium and the CharBuilder as well...
Only the mechanics, most of the fluff will be print exclusive.
Assumably, it's all going to be in the Compendium and the CharBuilder as well...
Only the mechanics, most of the fluff will be print exclusive.
Some fluff will be in the Compendium and the CharBuilder.
Just not the history and psychology and things like that.
Some fluff will be in the Compendium and the CharBuilder.
Just not the history and psychology and things like that.
The only fluff that typically makes it into the compendium, is the fluff that is directly attached to initial racial & class write-ups, paragon paths, epic destinies, and a brief description of each god. Oh, and the few sentences at top of each power. Very little of that is all that useful for DM world building.
Some fluff will be in the Compendium and the CharBuilder.
Just not the history and psychology and things like that.
The only fluff that typically makes it into the compendium, is the fluff that is directly attached to initial racial & class write-ups, paragon paths, epic destinies, and a brief description of each god. Oh, and the few sentences at top of each power. Very little of that is all that useful for DM world building.
True. And for that reason, DMs are likely to buy these books as well.
In general, a DM will more likely want a compilation book with more material of multiple areas, while a Player will more likely want a book with just the material for their character they're currently playing.
It's an interesting balance for sales.
As much as I'd like a compilation, there might be no other choice.
As it is, I'll probably just buy the books myself and loan them to my players when they so desire.
As much as I'd like a compilation, there might be no other choice.
That's pretty much the boat I'm in. Though my book shelf will hate me for it, or rather my OCD will make me think as much, but that's just the kind of crazy guy I am.
Hmmm, my outrage seems to be a little less furious and more pathetic than I thought. Oh dear.
1) Elves
2) Shifters
3) Deva
But then I'm weird....
I'm really looking forward to the various Race's spatbooks. Dragonborn and Tiefling are a great start due the amount of both decent fluff and crunch they can deliver. I'm also hoping they do most of the other races at some point. The three I really want at the moment are:
1) Elves
2) Shifters
3) Deva
But then I'm weird....
Screw them. They all have far more support than changelings already