A tiny little thing, I know. But like a rock in your shoe, its very irritating, and easily fixed. The only classes that get religion for free (i.e. a mandatory class skill) are all based on Wisdom as a key attribute. And of course Religion is based off of INT, which is usually a dump stat for non arcane classes, including divine ones.
The party wizard, at 1st level, has a +10 to his religion checks. The party cleric, at level 1, has a +4. So does the party paladin, actually.
This leads to lots of embarrassment during skill challenges, especially when its time to identify the evil cult or whatever that is using this chamber for rituals...everyone looks at the cleric and the paladin...who turn to look at the wizard.
Please move Religion from INT based to WIS based, so it's actually worth something to a divine character class, or give us another skill pick as an option.
On the other hand, Wisdom is already the key stat for a lot of skills. If Religion becomes a wisdom skill, then at least one other Wisdom skill should become an Intelligence skill. Personally, I've always thought that Perception made more sense as Int than Wis, but that's just me. Dungeoneering, too.
Religion is a skill you study to learn, rather than learning from experience (Nature, Dungeoneering). Thus, it is an Int skill, even if Clerics, Paladins, and Runepriests don't like it.
Perception is part of the very definition of Wisdom – your awareness of everything around you. It should never be anything -but- Wisdom.
On the one hand, I agree that it's very silly that most divine classes aren't really any good at the Religion skill.
On the other hand, Wisdom is already the key stat for a lot of skills. If Religion becomes a wisdom skill, then at least one other Wisdom skill should become an Intelligence skill. Personally, I've always thought that Perception made more sense as Int than Wis, but that's just me. Dungeoneering, too.
In my games Religion, and Streetwise, are both Wisdom based. Dungeoneering is Intelligence based. There is no Thievery skill, picking pockets and sleight of hand are resigned as part of the Stealth skill, while disarming traps and such is part of an Intelligence based skill called Mechanics.
Knowledge is governed by Intelligence.
If you want to know about religion in general, you'll have better results contacting a theologian (someone who studies religion) than a priest (who will only know a lot about his own religion, and any knowledge there will be, shall we say, influenced by dogma).
If you want to know about religion in general, you'll have better results contacting a theologian (someone who studies religion) than a priest (who will only know a lot about his own religion, and any knowledge there will be, shall we say, iinfluenced by dogma).
While this might be true from a REALISTIC perspective, I personally find it counter intuitive to the more trope like perspectives I would expect in a fantasy setting (a cleric should generally know more about the gods and their servants than a wizard). Also, within the context of the generic pseudo-medieval fantasy setting the concept of a priest and a theologian would likely be synonymies, as the purely secular study of religion would be all but unheard of.
What's basicly being suggested here is that having more common sense and awareness somehow make you a theologian, and that having more thinking ability, learning, and reasoning does not help you at all in trying to remember or figure out about religions.
Being a devout member of one religion does not automaticly make you an expert on every single religion that has ever been practiced.
Perhaps, but in the default setting there really isn't any religious diversity. Instead there is more of a greco-roman pantheon of interrelated gods. Each deity might have there own temples and clergy, but their histories and origins all descend from a single root core. The only official setting with anything approaching real world religious diversity is Ebberon, and even then there are only a handful of truly distinct faiths.
In our modern world theology is merely the intellectual study of religion, but within a fantasy setting I do not believe that the religion skill should be as such. Instead it should be more closely entwined with faith and the faithful. Arcane magic can be studied and analyzed scientifically, but the mysteries of the divine defy convectional logic and must be understood on an intuitive level rather learned on an intellectual one.
Contrast, the Religion skill has no more to do with modern theology than the Nature skill has anything to do with modern biology. In both cases the modern study is best associated with intelligence, while the fantasy skill probably shouldn't be.
Perhaps it should be Intuition (which seems EXACTLY what a priest's function is)
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A religious man does not actually need to be trained in all the silly minutae of his faith.
In my eyes, if the party came across some strange occult demonic (or however you want to describe an evil religion) object, it makes WAY more sense for the arcane casters to recognise it (since they may have dabbled in such Dark Arts) than the white-robed do-gooders who go out of their way to avoid - and even forbid - teaching such lore to one another.Anyways, I honestly still trust an atheist with PhDs in Theology and Philosophy to know more about Religion in general than the Pope
The problem with this statement is still that it's based more on how skills would work in our REAL world rather than how the skills should work in a FANTASY setting. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the go to guy for religious information should be the party's cleric, not the party's wizard.
Also, I would probably consider the guy with the PhD to know about the HISTORY related to a religion far more than the actual doctrine of the religion itself (especial in a world where divine entities are undeniably real), and that's a whole different skill. At best the guy with the PhD might know the FACTS of a religion but he would likely fall short of understanding their true MEANING.
In the case of Religion, I think it would be neat if you used Int to recall facts about faiths, devils, etc., Wis to pray for a miracle, and Cha to give a sermon.
I love that idea and it fits in well with the skill redux project I've been working on. Consider this stolen.
Anyways, I honestly still trust an atheist with PhDs in Theology and Philosophy to know more about Religion in general than the Pope
The problem with this statement is still that it's based more on how skills would work in our REAL world rather than how the skills should work in a FANTASY setting. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the go to guy for religious information should be the party's cleric, not the party's wizard.
I think, in a fantasy setting, depending on just how big a part religion plays in said setting, the cleric is still going to be too narrowly focused on his own religion to be the 'go-to guy' for any religious information. Especially if looking into other religions is considered heresy ...
I'm taking the other tack and, if I can gimmick the CB into doing it, removing automatically trained skills. I'd give clerics a bonus to religion, or not even make them roll, for stuff involving their own religion, but it makes sense to me that a hardcore zealot of god X isn't going to know crap-all about god Y.
Priests, modern and otherwise, are extensively educated in other faiths. This is because all religions (in the real world) assume their beliefs are the correct ones, and everyone else ranges from 'mistaken' to 'agents of evil'. To defeat/counter/convert members of other faiths (or those as yet uncommitted to any faith) you must understand those other faiths - in great detail - in order to point out why they are wrong and your faith is right.
In a fantasy setting, where the Gods are *real* and *actively manifested*, this is even more likely to be the case. Especially since so many faiths in D&D are described as being 'at war with' or 'violently opposed to' or 'mortal enemies of' other faiths (in the reference materials like the PHB, etc). Divine characters in D&D should all have an excellent Religion skill...but they don't.
Changing the mandatory/free class skill to Insight might work. So would simply adding a class feature that says "this class receives a +2 (or +4, whatever) bonus to the Religion skill". Changing the Religion skill to WIS based works. I'm OK with swapping Perception to INT, in exchange for changing Religion to WIS, if you need a one for one skill swap.
But as it stands now, Religion is one of the worst skills (if not THE worst) that you get as a cleric...which is just plain stupid.
Hell, it's not even a houserule really. It is entirely the DM's prerogative to give out circumstance bonuses to checks that it makes sense have to bonuses on, and it makes sense to me that even a not terribly intelligent person who is nonetheless an ordained priest would have received stringent training within his faith and would be very knowledgeable with it's history and rules.
@Corman
I find your assertion that all priests of all time are extensively educated about all religions to be completely false. You cannot tell me that Franciscan Monks of the 13th century knew anything more than common knowledge about any faith other than Christianity. They might know a small amount about Judaism and Islam just due to how related they are to Christianity, but even then I doubt they would even be able to see past the cultural barriers to consider Jews and Muslims anything more than infidels and godless heathens.
This is a game set in the dark ages. D&D settings are rife with cultural distrust and misunderstanding. While I agree that the provable and physical presence of gods in many D&D settings would change the religious landscapes drastically, the setting still remains in the dark ages and are a far cry from the intellectual revolution of the Renaissance.
I'm taking the other tack and, if I can gimmick the CB into doing it, removing automatically trained skills. I'd give clerics a bonus to religion, or not even make them roll, for stuff involving their own religion, but it makes sense to me that a hardcore zealot of god X isn't going to know crap-all about god Y.
Except each god doesn't represent an entirely distinct religion, in the default setting at least. Instead they are all part of a single pantheon. Some are allies, some are enemies, but all are interconnected in some way or another.
This is a game set in the dark ages. D&D settings are rife with cultural distrust and misunderstanding. While I agree that the provable and physical presence of gods in many D&D settings would change the religious landscapes drastically, the setting still remains in the dark ages and are a far cry from the intellectual revolution of the Renaissance.
D&D isn't really set in the dark ages. While it is often described as pseudo-medieval, that's really only accurate as a visual description. Culturally the typical D&D setting tends to have far more uncommon with ancient Greece or Rome, especially as far as the way religion and the gods are portrayed.
Some of the posts in this thread amaze me. A priest wouldn't know anything (or anything much) about other religions? How did you come to that completely backwards conclusion?
Priests, modern and otherwise, are extensively educated in other faiths. This is because all religions (in the real world) assume their beliefs are the correct ones, and everyone else ranges from 'mistaken' to 'agents of evil'. To defeat/counter/convert members of other faiths (or those as yet uncommitted to any faith) you must understand those other faiths - in great detail - in order to point out why they are wrong and your faith is right.
In a fantasy setting, where the Gods are *real* and *actively manifested*, this is even more likely to be the case. Especially since so many faiths in D&D are described as being 'at war with' or 'violently opposed to' or 'mortal enemies of' other faiths (in the reference materials like the PHB, etc). Divine characters in D&D should all have an excellent Religion skill...but they don't.
Changing the mandatory/free class skill to Insight might work. So would simply adding a class feature that says "this class receives a +2 (or +4, whatever) bonus to the Religion skill". Changing the Religion skill to WIS based works. I'm OK with swapping Perception to INT, in exchange for changing Religion to WIS, if you need a one for one skill swap.
But as it stands now, Religion is one of the worst skills (if not THE worst) that you get as a cleric...which is just plain stupid.
Others have said (and I agree) that if Religion were made a WIS skill, a good WIS skill to be made INT would be Dungeoneering (not Perception).
Priests, modern and otherwise, are extensively educated in other faiths. This is because all religions (in the real world) assume their beliefs are the correct ones, and everyone else ranges from 'mistaken' to 'agents of evil'. To defeat/counter/convert members of other faiths (or those as yet uncommitted to any faith) you must understand those other faiths - in great detail - in order to point out why they are wrong and your faith is right.
Which means any information you have is likely to be distorted through the lens of your own dogma, which means it's likely to be wrong.
"They should be the best!" - that's exactly the mentality that 4E tries to avoid.
"I can't invest in Int, I need all of my points for Wis!" - if you want to super at some things then you won't be as good at everything else, even class-related functions; tradeoffs like this are intentional.
"But it's my class shtick and it uses the wrong stat!" - (See: Rogues and Perception in numerous threads.) Many class features and powers require you to invest in a stat to make them potent - Religion isn't being singled out here.
Fluff-wise, anyone with Religion as a trained skill has undertaken the same amount of study of the subject - a cleric with Religion hasn't learned more about it than a wizard with Religion, so there's no reason why he should be inherently advantaged over a wizard who took Religion.
The problem with this statement is still that it's based more on how skills would work in our REAL world rather than how the skills should work in a FANTASY setting.
But this is only a problem if you think that there's good reason for the skill to function differently in a fantasy setting than it does in real life to begin with. I don't see why there should be. Both the Cleric and the Wizard studied religion, but the Wizard is smarter, so it knows more. If the Cleric wants to know more about Religion while still being less intelligent than the Wizard, maybe it should pick up Skill Focus, but when we're talking about the Religion skill, we're not talking about devotion or faithfulness. We're talking about Knowledge. Religion is a Knowledge skill, and it's used to make Knowledge checks and Monster Knowledge checks.
Also, I would probably consider the guy with the PhD to know about the HISTORY related to a religion far more than the actual doctrine of the religion itself...
I don't see any good reason to believe that. In fact, it's exactly because the theologian has likely studied religions from a broader perspective (doctrine and history and comparison and philosophy and psychology and sociology and anthropology, etc.) than the priest has that I'm more likely to go to him than I am the priest. Further, I expect the theologian to be less bias about what I want to know from it.
At best the guy with the PhD might know the FACTS of a religion but he would likely fall short of understanding their true MEANING.
I don't buy that at all. This argument is extraordinarily misleading, and it treads dangerously close to "no true Scottsman".
The problem with this statement is still that it's based more on how skills would work in our REAL world rather than how the skills should work in a FANTASY setting.
But this is only a problem if you think that there's good reason for the skill to function differently in a fantasy setting than it does in real life to begin with. I don't see why there should be. Both the Cleric and the Wizard studied religion, but the Wizard is smarter, so it knows more.
Considering that the fantasy world is a place where men can conjure balls of flame just by thinking hard or pillars of light through sheer faith alone, there's already plenty of precedence for things that work differently than REAL world expectations would suggest. Also, while the wizard might KNOW more, the cleric UNDERSTANDS more, which in my opinion should be far more relevant when it comes to anything relating to the gods.
Explain?
...while the wizard might KNOW more, the cleric UNDERSTANDS more...
This doesn't mean anything, though. You're inventing a distinction that isn't there. There's no good reason to believe that the Wizard doesn't understand what it knows.
> Also, while the wizard might KNOW more, the cleric UNDERSTANDS more, Explain?
Intelligence generally represents book smarts, logical reasoning, and abstract problem solving. Wisdom generally represents awareness/understanding of oneself and the world around you, as well as plain old common sense.
The high Intelligence low Wisdom character is an addled brained genius. The smart guy who goes to the big city and gets swindled. The high Wisdom low Intelligence character's brain hurts when you start dealing with numbers or rattling off facts. He might not even be able to read. He is, however, in possession of a great deal of common sense and reveals profound truths with his simple minded observations.
Although I don't think it matters since I think Religion deals more with traditions, facts, and the like than understanding the true motiviations or intent behind any given faith.
Also, while the wizard might KNOW more, the cleric UNDERSTANDS more
Yeah, man, you gotta get, like, in tune with the cosmos, you know, and feel the vibe of the universe man! Those arcano...arcanu....those mages don't know anything, man! You gotta talk to the clerics, they UNDERSTAND, man, they understand the whole world and the tiniest dust speck and stuff, it's deep, man. You gotta talk to 'em, they'll show you their special incense, and it'll open your mind to, like, new horizons, things you've never even thought about thinking, I think. Wow, move your hands really fast like this, it's crazy!
And that is how I solved the mystery of why druids get along with clerics. Special herb incense.
A short version way of thinking of it is that a Paladin/Cleric/Avenger is to his or her faith as a Soldier - not a national historian - is to his or her nation. The divine scholars exist and probably do know more about religion than anybody else, they're just not a 4e class.
Of course, a feat or background that lets you use wisdom for religion (representing hands-on experience with or special insight into the divine and supernatural) seems totally reasonable. (I also agree that it seems a little "off" that in a party with a cleric and a wizard, the wizard is reasonably likely to be more expert in religion than the cleric, even if it's possible to justify the fact. There's a fair number of random accidents of expertise that crop up because of incidentals of secondary stats and the fairly broad things that stats represent.)
A short version way of thinking of it is that a Paladin/Cleric/Avenger is to his or her faith as a Soldier - not a national historian - is to his or her nation. The divine scholars exist and probably do know more about religion than anybody else, they're just not a 4e class.
Oddly, Avengers (2 out of 3 builds) can actually be quite adept at the Religion skill, due to having INT as a secondary stat. It strikes me as odd that these assassin-like shadow operatives know more about the faith than the clerics (who are often described as leaders in more than just the mechanical sense).
Also, if any class should serve as an example for the idea of Religion as a WIS based skill I feel it is the Invoker. These guys have a direct hotline to the gods. If anyone should have an innate understanding of all things divine it should be the invoker, yet only 1 of their 3 build uses INT as secondary stat, so oddly the Avenger beats them as well.
Priests, modern and otherwise, are extensively educated in other faiths.
I'm sorry, but as an ordained minister, I can conclusively say that any education I have in the matter had nothing to do with my being ordained.
This is because all religions (in the real world) assume their beliefs are the correct ones, and everyone else ranges from 'mistaken' to 'agents of evil'.
Again, no. The Society of Friends is extremely open on beliefs, internally and externally. Buddhists don't really care what religion you are. And the Bahá'í Faith pretty much assumes everyone is on the same road. While there are a few fanatics in the world, my experince is that most people and preachers simply don't care what religion you are.
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A few notes:
Many of the religion checks are checks "outside" the pantheon. There isn't a lot of reason for the local priest to know a lot about Maglubiyet. I can see a cleric's background as having given him a chance to have come across it in his training (thus the +5 trained bonus) but that doesn't mean he's an expert on all things religious.
No one made anyone dump those points in intelligence. There are plenty of egghead priests in the world, but it's likely the characters aren't playing them because egghead priests have better things to do than fight of hordes of the undead or casting Astral Seal every five seconds.
Seiously, an "innate knowledge of all things divine" doesn't really tell you that you're standing in a shrine to a goblin god any more than being a European priest helps you realize you just rode through an Apache burial ground.
Seiously, an "innate knowledge of all things divine" doesn't really tell you that you're standing in a shrine to a goblin god any more than being a European priest helps you realize you just rode through an Apache burial ground.
I'm sorry, but as a European priest that once rode through an Apache burial ground, I can conclusively tell you that my faith made me innately aware of the nature of the burial ground.
Just kidding, that was a lie. It was actually a Huron burial ground.
On the other side of the coin, who do you expect to know "more" about medicine, ESPECIALLY the really esoteric knowledge, the Nurse (Cleric), or the medical researcher (Wizard with Religion training)
I think if anything, this might be better solved with the Bard Diplomacy Solution- Words of Friendship keeps the Bard the best user of diplomacy. If we gave Cleric a free feature called "Recite Tenent" for a similar religion boost we'd disturb less.
On the other side of the coin, who do you expect to know "more" about medicine, ESPECIALLY the really esoteric knowledge, the Nurse (Cleric), or the medical researcher (Wizard with Religion training)
That's Heal (Wis), not Religion.
As said earlier in the thread: if you want a smart cleric who can memorize facts about cults and other religions, nothing is stopping you from investing in Int. It's a tradeoff just like anything else in the game.
As said earlier in the thread: if you want a smart cleric who can memorize facts about cults and other religions, nothing is stopping you from investing in Int. It's a tradeoff just like anything else in the game.
The last time I checked wasn't MEMORY a function of wisdom, not intelligence. I suppose that could have changed in 4e, but I know it was in 3e, which does make it seem kind of odd that the knowledge skills were ever INT based in the first place.
Anyway, seems to me INT is the ideal stat for science-like knowledges, where you need to be able to preform complex equations. Religion though should not be a science, the mysteries of divine are revealed through portents and omens as the gods rarely speak directly to mortals and even when they do their thought process operate on an entirely different level, as such the is a substantial need for divine "scholars" to be cable of interpreting what they learn rather than simply taking everything at face value. Any one can be taught the scriptures, but the true meaning be hind the words is something that must be understood not merely learned.
As for who should know more about some obscure demonic cult. Well, demons aren't gods (they don't even hail from the Astral Sea) and the most cultist-like class is the warlock, so mabey such skill checks should be the domain of the Arcana skill.
Really though all of the above is just a needlessly complex justification for a much simpler truth and when comes down to it the reason the Religion should be WIS based skill is because Clerics and such really should be best at it. Which despite what some have suggested is an entirely valid reason for a decision to be made in 4e (the developer commentary for the Psion specifically mentioned that INT was chosen as the class's key stat based on which races should make the best Psions). It might not fit REAL world expectations, but FANTASY expectations suggest that the most religious character in any group of heroic adventurers should likely be the best source for such information.
Really though all of the above is just a needlessly complex justification for a much simpler truth and when comes down to it the reason the Religion should be WIS based skill is because Clerics and such really should be best at it.
Okay...
So isn't it easier to have a little class feature that says "Cleric. You're a cleric. Being a cleric, you are good at clerical things, and rarely make clerical errors. You can use Wisdom for Religion checks." This would be the same leap as saying "Rogues should be good at Dungeoneering, because it is roguish. But dungeoneering is wisdom based, and no rogues use wisdom. Let's say that Shadowy Rogues can use Intelligence for Dungeoneering checks."
Clerics are not terrible at Religion. They all get a +5 to the skill. Every one of them. How much focus they put beyond that determines how much of a religious scholar they are, be it from feat, stat, or just plain level bonus. Also, the skill does not define the class.
You could be the best auto-mechanic in the world, but if I am smarter, and more knowlegeable than you, I'm going to know a bit more about auto-mechanics than you do. People will still likely trust you to fix their cars though.
(Also, if skill focus added to itself after each tier was reached, that may make the feat more attractive too. +3 at heroic, +6 at Paragon, and +9 at Epic. but thats all off topic)
Perhaps a better more satisfying sollution would be to have a new cleric type in the Divine Power 2, which can swap Int for Wisdom for powers, (or maybe Charisma for Int) much like the Archer Warlords can Swap Wisdom for Int on some of their powers.
A Theologist build, who uses his knowledge of the Cosmos to futher his God's will instead of relying purely on his faith.
So isn't it easier to have a little class feature that says "Cleric. You're a cleric. Being a cleric, you are good at clerical things, and rarely make clerical errors. You can use Wisdom for Religion checks." This would be the same leap as saying "Rogues should be good at Dungeoneering, because it is roguish. But dungeoneering is wisdom based, and no rogues use wisdom. Let's say that Shadowy Rogues can use Intelligence for Dungeoneering checks."
Nail. Head.
The fact of the matter is that some abilitiy scores are used on more skills than others. Intelligence should play a larger role in being good at skills than constitution - and that is the case. Fighters should be good at intimidation, but they aren't. Having Wisdom as a secondary stat means they are often the worst at intimidation. A lot of people would (and do) argue that physical intimidation should be strength-based, but it isn't.
If you want to build a particularly intimidating fighter - perhaps for an arena-fighting concept you have - you need to invest in charisma, and this will come at a cost (namely, wisdom).
I think if anything, this might be better solved with the Bard Diplomacy Solution- Words of Friendship keeps the Bard the best user of diplomacy. If we gave Cleric a free feature called "Recite Tenent" for a similar religion boost we'd disturb less.
On the other side of the coin, who do you expect to know "more" about medicine, ESPECIALLY the really esoteric knowledge, the Nurse (Cleric), or the medical researcher (Wizard with Religion training)
That's Heal (Wis), not Religion.
I was going for an analogy with "The one that practices" vs. "The one that theorizes" as "knowing more", since the priest/theologist original analogy was muddied up by various degrees of scholarliness during ordination.
The last time I checked wasn't MEMORY a function of wisdom, not intelligence.
Memory has always been a function of Intelligence in D&D.
The last time I checked wasn't MEMORY a function of wisdom, not intelligence.
Memory has always been a function of Intelligence in D&D.
Really? Where does it say that? Granted I'm having a little trouble finding where it was attributed to wisdom either. The best I can find at the moment is in the 3.5 PHB where the example ability check for wisdom is "recognizing a stranger you have seen before". Could have sworn their was something about remembering whether you locked a door, maybe that was d20 Modern.
"recognizing a stranger you have seen before".
This makes sense to me. It seems releated to both perception and (to a much lesser extent) insight.
As said earlier in the thread: if you want a smart cleric who can memorize facts about cults and other religions, nothing is stopping you from investing in Int. It's a tradeoff just like anything else in the game.
The last time I checked wasn't MEMORY a function of wisdom, not intelligence. I suppose that could have changed in 4e, but I know it was in 3e, which does make it seem kind of odd that the knowledge skills were ever INT based in the first place.
Anyway, seems to me INT is the ideal stat for science-like knowledges, where you need to be able to preform complex equations. Religion though should not be a science, the mysteries of divine are revealed through portents and omens as the gods rarely speak directly to mortals and even when they do their thought process operate on an entirely different level, as such the is a substantial need for divine "scholars" to be cable of interpreting what they learn rather than simply taking everything at face value. Any one can be taught the scriptures, but the true meaning be hind the words is something that must be understood not merely learned.
As for who should know more about some obscure demonic cult. Well, demons aren't gods (they don't even hail from the Astral Sea) and the most cultist-like class is the warlock, so mabey such skill checks should be the domain of the Arcana skill.
Really though all of the above is just a needlessly complex justification for a much simpler truth and when comes down to it the reason the Religion should be WIS based skill is because Clerics and such really should be best at it. Which despite what some have suggested is an entirely valid reason for a decision to be made in 4e (the developer commentary for the Psion specifically mentioned that INT was chosen as the class's key stat based on which races should make the best Psions). It might not fit REAL world expectations, but FANTASY expectations suggest that the most religious character in any group of heroic adventurers should likely be the best source for such information.
Knowledge checks are Intelligence. However, Nature and Dungeoneering are different, because they wrap other former skills, which were Wisdom-based into their set.
Let's look at a list of the 3.5e skills compared to the 4e skills, shall we?
Here's a list of 3.5e Skills that were introduced in the PH1 (so I didn't Psionic skills or such).
Appraise (Int) – Ability to know how much something is worth. You should know this already. Axed.
Balance (Dex) – Walk on a Precarious surface. Wrapped into Acrobatics.
Bluff (Cha) – Lie, feint, create a diversion to hide, and deliver a secret message. No message.
Climb (Str) – Ability to climb. Wrapped into Athletics.
Concentration (Con) – Focus under distracting circumstances. You shouldn't have to do this. Axed.
Craft (Int) – Various Skills to create various common goods. Turned into Rituals and Martial Practices.
Decipher Script (Int) – Decipher unknown scripts. Turned into a Ritual and a Martial Practice.
Diplomacy (Cha) – Influence others through tact, subtlety, and social grace. Almost identical.
Disable Device (Int) – Take apart devices, mechanics, and disarm traps. Wrapped into Theivery.
Disguise (Cha) – Disguise yourself as something else. Wrapped into Stealth.
Escape Artist (Dex) – Escape from grapples and traps and move in tight places. Acrobatics OR Athletics.
Forgery (Int) – Ability to forge documents. Made into a Ritual.
Gather Information (Cha) – Ability to gather information. Renamed as Streetwise.
Handle Animal (Cha) – Ability to deal with animals. This should have been Wis. Wrapped into Nature.
Heal (Wis) – Provide first aid, treat wounds, poison, and diseases. Almost identical.
Hide (Dex) – Ability to hide. Wrapped into Stealth.
Intimidate (Cha) – Ability to scare and threaten people. Almost identical.
Jump (Str) – Ability to Jump. Wrapped into Athletics.
Knowledge (Int) – Here's the doesy. We'll discuss them below. Many of them were axed, by the way.
Listen (Wis) – Ability to hear good. Wrapped into Perception.
Move Silently (Dex) – Move while not making noise. Wrapped into Stealth.
Open Lock (Dex) – Lockpicking. Wrapped into Thievery.
Perform (Cha) – Ability to perform various artes. You should be able to do this already. Axed.
Profession (Wis) – Your job. No jobs. That's what backgrounds are for. Axed.
Ride (Dex) – Be able to ride. Wrapped into Nature.
Search (Int) – Split up and Search for clues. Wrapped into Perception.
Sense Motive (Wis) – Sense motives. Identical to Insight.
Sleight of Hand (Dex) – Pickpocket, peform a magic trick, or draw hidden weapons. Axed.
Speak Language (N/A) – Take a background, choose a race, or take the feat. Axed.
Spellcraft (Int) – Ability to identify magical effects and spells. Wrapped into Arcana.
Spot (Wis) – Ability to see good. Wrapped into Perception.
Survival (Wis) – Ability to survive in the wild. Split up between Endurance, Nature, and Dungeoneering.
Swim (Str) – Ability to swim good. Wrapped into Athletics.
Tumble (Dex) – Ability to make roll attacks to cushion a fall. Wrapped into Acrobatics.
Use Magic Device (Cha) – Ability to read a spell or activate a magic item. Mostly axed.
Use Rope (Dex) – Ability to use rope. Rope. You should be able to do this already.
Knowledge Skills:
- Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts) –> Arcana
- Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications) –> Axed
- Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking) –> Dungeoneering
- Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people) –> Nature
- History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities) –> History
- Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids) –> History
- Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin) –> Nature
- Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities) –> History
- Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead) –> Religion
- The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes) –> Broken up amongst knowledges.
Nature is a strange skill, since they wrapped in a Dex skill, a Cha skill, a Wis skill, and an Int skill. However, altogether, Nature happens to be best related to wisdom, because of the wisdom to survive in the wild, as the most important part of the skill.
As you can see, Religion has always been a purely knowledge skill, and doesn't have any other former skills wrapped into it, so it remains Intelligence.
Nature is a strange skill, since they wrapped in a Dex skill, a Cha skill, a Wis skill, and an Int skill. However, altogether, Nature happens to be best related to wisdom, because of the wisdom to survive in the wild, as the most important part of the skill.
As you can see, Religion has always been a purely knowledge skill, and doesn't have any other former skills wrapped into it, so it remains Intelligence.
Enough already. I know I brought up the whole wisdom = memory in 3e thing, but it was mostly for humor. Personally I don't think an appeal to knowledge skills as they were presented in 3e is a valid argument. That system was very much a simulationist RPG, while 4e is more of a narrative RPG. In a simulation INT probably is the best skill for knowledge checks, but from a narrative perspective it makes no sense for a wizard to be better at Religion checks than a Cleric.
As a minor aside, the narrative flaw tended not to be a problem in 3e because of the system being simulation oriented, namely because of skill points. With no half-level to skills, and with a wider list of niche skill, a typical wizard wasn't like to invest enough ranks in religion to remain competitive with the cleric past early levels. Also in 3e a cleric could make due with a mediocre WIS in order to funnel a few extra points into INT, and many did to make up for low numer of skill points per level. Now in 4e, INT doesn't grant more skills and tanking primary or even secondary stats is not a particularly viable option.
Enough already. I know I brought up the whole wisdom = memory in 3e thing, but it was mostly for humor. Personally I don't think an appeal to knowledge skills as they were presented in 3e is a valid argument. That system was very much a simulationist RPG, while 4e is more of a narrative RPG. In a simulation INT probably is the best skill for knowledge checks, but from a narrative perspective it makes no sense for a wizard to be better at Religion checks than a Cleric.
As a minor aside, the narrative flaw tended not to be a problem in 3e because of the system being simulation oriented, namely because of skill points. With no half-level to skills, and with a wider list of niche skill, a typical wizard wasn't like to invest enough ranks in religion to remain competitive with the cleric past early levels.
And Wizards still probably aren't going to invest in Religion. There are plenty of other knowledges, as well as well as Diplomacy and Insight.
That said, it's not about simulationism. It's about what is logical for the skill, and it doesn't make sense for it to be wisdom. Religion as the skill has nothing to do with what they define as wisdom in the PH1 – awareness, empathy, knowledge from experience, and judgement. The skill is a lot more about the esoteric knowledge of various sects, religions, deities. etc. That's not experiential knowledge – it's book knowledge. And yet Clerics do study it – that's why they have Religion as a class skill. Just because a Wizard MIGHT have studied more on hidden sects doesn't make the Wizard automatically better.
That said, it's not about simulationism. It's about what is logical for the skill, and it doesn't make sense for it to be wisdom.
But it is only logical from a simulationism perspective, while from a narrative perspective it is counter intuitive. Not in and of the skill itself, but in terms of which character one would expect to be the best at something.
And Wizards still probably aren't going to invest in Religion. There are plenty of other knowledges, as well as well as Diplomacy and Insight.
As knowledge checks are no longer a trained only skill, the Wizard's substantially higher intelligence will make it difficult for the Cleric to to compete with even an untrained Wizard, and baring a magic item that grants a skill bonus, competing with a trained Wizard is out of the question.
But it is only logical from a simulationism perspective, while from a narrative perspective it is counter intuitive.
I call BS on this. There's nothing counterintuitive about smarter people knowing more about stuff that they've studied than dumber people know about the same stuff when they've studied the same amount. It's perfectly logical from both a simulationist and narrativist perspective.
Not in and of the skill itself, but in terms of which character I would expect to be the best at something.
Fixed. Why exactly is it that you expect Divine characters to know more about Religion than non-Divine characters to begin with? From a narrativist standpoint even. "Narrativist" doesn't mean "Stupid".
Not in and of the skill itself, but in terms of which character I would expect to be the best at something.
Fixed. Why exactly is it that you expect Divine characters to know more about Religion than non-Divine characters to begin with? From a narrativist standpoint even. "Narrativist" doesn't mean "Stupid".
Post fixing, really? This thread very much proves that I am not alone in this opinion. I'm not even the one who brought the topic up in the first place.
Anyway, why do I expect a DIVINE characters to be the best at Religion checks? Should that even require an answer? It's in their basic job description. PRIMAL characters, save the Barbarian, can all be the best at Nature checks. ARCANE characters, save the Sorcerer, can all be the best at Arcana checks. Is it really so odd to expcet that the Cleric, the definitive DIVINE class, should be the best at Religion checks?
As knowledge checks are no longer a trained only skill
Not entirely true.
PH1, p.179
"Sometiems your DM might decide that the information you seek is available only to characters trained in an appropriate knowledge skill."
So, generally not "trained only" - but it can be, if the DM so decides.
Should that even require an answer? It's in their basic job description.
No, it isn't. Being knowledgeable about Religion is exactly as much a part of most Divine classes as being knowledgeable about Nature is a part of the Barbarian class or being knowledgeable about Arcana is a part of the Sorcerer class. It's not. You don't need to be knowledgeable about religion to be a good Cleric, whether real or fictional, whether simulationist or narrativist. You just need to be devout and loyal to your faith. Getting automatic training in Religion essentially is the class bonus based on that concept. The fact that somebody who is smarter than you, who has studied just as much if not more about a subject than you have, knows more about that subject than you is acceptable from both simulationist and narrativist points of view.
Not in and of the skill itself, but in terms of which character I would expect to be the best at something.
Fixed. Why exactly is it that you expect Divine characters to know more about Religion than non-Divine characters to begin with? From a narrativist standpoint even. "Narrativist" doesn't mean "Stupid".
Post fixing, really? This thread very much proves that I am not alone in this opinion. I'm not even the one who brought the topic up in the first place.
Anyway, why do I expect a DIVINE characters to be the best at Religion checks? Should that even require an answer? It's in their basic job description. PRIMAL characters, save the Barbarian, can all be the best at Nature checks. ARCANE characters, save the Sorcerer, can all be the best at Arcana checks. Is it really so odd to expcet that the Cleric, the definitive DIVINE class, should be the best at Religion checks?
Sounds like fun what you are doing.
Ummm why is it that my cha/wis bard, warlock, and sorcerer knows less about arcana than the wis/int shaman? That should never happen ever. The Shaman is just some stupid nature hippy. There is no reason why it should know more about arcana than I! The guy who sings songs/the guy who goes pew pew! And the Psion! Why does it know more about arcana than the bard and the shaman too? It makes no sense. Clearly because I use magic that I should know every tidbit about arcane stuff better than either of them do! Bards, Sorcs, and Warlocks clearly need an inherent power to put them up to stuff with a Wizard when dealing with Arcana.
Why is the Cleric better at insight than the Psion, Battlemind, and Ardent? The priest is all "oooohhhh I study alot and I pray and preach!" But those classes are PSYCHIC! Clearly they should be better at insight than some narrowminded priest!
Oh and also I will tell my friend who was ordained as a minister over the internet that he is now more knowledgeable about all religions ever than anyone who is not a cleric or such but studies religion.
Oh and also I will tell my friend who was ordained as a minister over the internet...
I have one of those too! ^_^
Oh and also I will tell my friend who was ordained as a minister over the internet...
I have one of those too! ^_^
Me three! Being a cleric is awesome!
To the issue at hand: The thing is, your average cleric IS better than your average wizard at Religion. That's because clerics get it for free, wizards do not. That means most wizards are untrained at religion, and that +5 bonus for the cleric means they are better at it.
The situation the original problem is describing is more akin to "Your average cleric who has done nothing beyond the normal for his class isn't as good at Religion as a wizard who has specifically gone out and chosen to learn that skill". At which point, we aren't talking about a run of the mill wizard, we're discussing a scholar versed in religion who happens to be arcane.
Oh and also I will tell my friend who was ordained as a minister over the internet...
I have one of those too! ^_^
Me three! Being a cleric is awesome!
To the issue at hand: The thing is, your average cleric IS better than your average wizard at Religion. That's because clerics get it for free, wizards do not. That means most wizards are untrained at religion, and that +5 bonus for the cleric means they are better at it.
The situation the original problem is describing is more akin to "Your average cleric who has done nothing beyond the normal for his class isn't as good at Religion as a wizard who has specifically gone out and chosen to learn that skill". At which point, we aren't talking about a run of the mill wizard, we're discussing a scholar versed in religion who happens to be arcane.
By Jove, I think he's got it!
Oh and also I will tell my friend who was ordained as a minister over the internet...
I have one of those too! ^_^
Me three! Being a cleric is awesome!
To the issue at hand: The thing is, your average cleric IS better than your average wizard at Religion. That's because clerics get it for free, wizards do not. That means most wizards are untrained at religion, and that +5 bonus for the cleric means they are better at it.
The situation the original problem is describing is more akin to "Your average cleric who has done nothing beyond the normal for his class isn't as good at Religion as a wizard who has specifically gone out and chosen to learn that skill". At which point, we aren't talking about a run of the mill wizard, we're discussing a scholar versed in religion who happens to be arcane.
By Jove, I think he's got it!
Why is it that when Dragoncat says the exact same thing I said, he's met with applause, while I was met with more arguments?
Glad to see you two agree with me.
Oh and also I will tell my friend who was ordained as a minister over the internet...
I have one of those too! ^_^
Me three! Being a cleric is awesome!
To the issue at hand: The thing is, your average cleric IS better than your average wizard at Religion. That's because clerics get it for free, wizards do not. That means most wizards are untrained at religion, and that +5 bonus for the cleric means they are better at it.
The situation the original problem is describing is more akin to "Your average cleric who has done nothing beyond the normal for his class isn't as good at Religion as a wizard who has specifically gone out and chosen to learn that skill". At which point, we aren't talking about a run of the mill wizard, we're discussing a scholar versed in religion who happens to be arcane.
By Jove, I think he's got it!
Why is it that when Dragoncat says the exact same thing I said, he's met with applause, while I was met with more arguments?
Because I have the power of kitten pictures.
All shall praise the kittens.
Using auto pick in the Character Builder to make a Cleric sets your Int to 8 and your Religion to +4. Building a Wizard results in a Religion of +5 with a tempting opportunity to train it to +10.
Should it really be that hard for a player who wish to play the iconic divine character to be good at Religion?
Actually, as Corman pointed out in his first Post:
Using auto pick in the Character Builder to make a Cleric sets your Int to 8 and your Religion to +4. Building a Wizard results in a Religion of +5 with a tempting opportunity to train it to +10.
Should it really be that hard for a player who wish to play the iconic divine character to be good at Religion?
Auto pick in the cb also is looking only to maximize your two main stats. SO the wizard gets max int, but likely has low points in other crucialo areas, and they only have the +5 if they are a plus int race, otherwise they match the cleric's +4, the same plus int race as a cleric would also have +5. It comes down to any auto picked cleric spent their time focusing on their attack stats, and nothing else, so they were taught just as much as the other clerics, it just didn't all stick. Auto pick is a bad choice when talking about flavor.
And Wizards still probably aren't going to invest in Religion. There are plenty of other knowledges, as well as well as Diplomacy and Insight.
Really? I don't exactly have a huge sample size, but as of yet I've never seen a Wizard player that hasn't trained Religion (History as well). Players tend to train the skills that their character has the potential to be good at, and so Wizard's I've seen always train the Int skills.
All of this is really a moot discussion as far as I'm concerned. Rationalizations about which skills should be based on which attributes are irrelevant, and don't change the fact that every time I hear a call for a Religion check, I then hear players ask the Cleric to do it, followed by universal surprise when the Cleric says someone else should make the roll, because his Religion skill sucks. I could be convinced that it makes sense for Religion to be an INT skill, but I definitely cannot be convinced that it is intuitive and anything other than contrary to the expectations of the majority of players.
To the issue at hand: The thing is, your average cleric IS better than your average wizard at Religion. That's because clerics get it for free, wizards do not. That means most wizards are untrained at religion, and that +5 bonus for the cleric means they are better at it.
The situation the original problem is describing is more akin to "Your average cleric who has done nothing beyond the normal for his class isn't as good at Religion as a wizard who has specifically gone out and chosen to learn that skill". At which point, we aren't talking about a run of the mill wizard, we're discussing a scholar versed in religion who happens to be arcane.
Power of kittens or not, I don't think this is true at all.
First of all, clerics don't get Religion training "for free." They get it as a mandatory training, not a free one - they pay for it just as much as classes pay for any skill training, except that they have no choice but to pay for it. It's not a bonus skill. Almost all classes start with a total of four trained skills. A few have more, like the Bard, Artificer and Rogue. A couple have only three - I think the Barbarian and Fighter are the only examples of this? So, since pretty much everyone gets four skills, I find it very hard to view the classes that get "X Skill, plus three others" as getting a free bonus - "X and three others" doesn't seem like an advantage over "four."
Second, a run of the mill wizard is trained in Religion. Wizards always have high Intelligence (probably in the 18-20 range), and usually train Religion. No, I don't think all that many wizards invest any further in optimizing for Religion - but they don't need to. Your basic, run-of-the-mill wizard who has done nothing to optimize in Religion is still going to be better at it than a Cleric who has thrown everything he reasonably can into Religion (without building a completely useless character). This gap is likely to get even wider at higher levels, because the Wizard is probably going to put points into Intelligence at every possible level, which makes it even harder for the Cleric to keep up - he needs to start getting magic items to boost religion just to keep pace with the level-up bonuses that the wizard gets automatically.
Wizards always have high Intelligence (probably in the 18-20 range), and usually train Religion.
At which point, again, we're talking about a trained ritualist who is specifically gifted toward knowledge and the use of special rites who is fully versed in religious practice.
Don't forget, there are several divine characters who focus on Intelligence, and they are actually more likely than the cleric to have religious knowledge as a focus. The Invoker, for example, has an intelligence secondary, emphasizing his research into the past history of the gods and his knowledge of symbols, numbers, glyphs, and formations that occur in ritualistic practice. The Avenger also has a reason to train Intelligence, most likely for a different reason; the ability to recognize the ecclectic aspects of your foe's religion makes it easier to track them down and smite them. Let us also not forget that Clerics are going to be better than almost anyone else at the Heal skill and all its rituals, which given their role, is a perfect application of their faith.
Amusingly enough, both Avenger and Invoker are better at Arcana than Sorcerers. It works both ways.
The Avenger also has a reason to train Intelligence, most likely for a different reason; the ability to recognize the ecclectic aspects of your foe's religion makes it easier to track them down and smite them.
Isn't that a stretch? The Cleric needs equal knowledge to confront the Undead (part of the Religion skill), servants of enemy gods, and he really should be able to perform in divine rituals with success.
Still, these are only our attempt to rationalize the flaw of the rules. The main issue is that the Cleric is the iconic D&D divine character and players rely on them for religious knowledge in the same way they look to the Wizard for magic and to the Druid for things vegetable, animal and mineral.
The Avenger also has a reason to train Intelligence, most likely for a different reason; the ability to recognize the ecclectic aspects of your foe's religion makes it easier to track them down and smite them.
Isn't that a stretch? The Cleric needs equal knowledge to confront the Undead (part of the Religion skill), servants of enemy gods, and he really should be able to perform in divine rituals with success.
Still, these are only our attempt to rationalize the flaw of the rules. The main issue is that the Cleric is the iconic D&D divine character and players rely on them for religious knowledge in the same way they look to the Wizard for magic and to the Druid for things vegetable, animal and mineral.
I don't think its a stretch at all. Reread the Cleric's description. He is not touted as a be all end all knower of cosmology. He knows his god, loves his god, and kicks in teeth for him, while inspiring others.
The Avenger and Invoker descriptions, however, play to the fact that both of those characters likely spent a good deal of time in focused study.
A particular cleric who wants to be Johny Sundayschool (clerics of Iuon for example) should build his character accordingly.
Honestly, +5 added to +1/2 your level sans a decent stat bonus is not remotely terrible to make most level appropriate DC's. At the very least, you have another guy who can add a solid +2 or more from an aid another check.
At the very least, you have another guy who can add a solid +2 or more from an aid another check.
Do people actually made aid other checks? I very rarely see it in practice.
At the very least, you have another guy who can add a solid +2 or more from an aid another check.
Do people actually made aid other checks? I very rarely see it in practice.
In my group they do, and more folks should. Very good if you are suffering a case of the wiffsies in combat, or for setting up something along the lines of "Lead the Attack" that you really want to hit.
More appropriate to this converstation, you make sure your team sage makes the check, and it flows nicely in the fluff.
Noelizzital, the Nefarious - "hrm, these runes are very interesting. Perhaps the Priest of Pelor could help me shed some light on things?"
Brother Ray - "I do notice some basic patterns to the glyphs, standard to most faithful. Also, any more light puns, and I'm cutting off your healing for the next three encounters".