they mention the monster manual races like Kobolds being published for player use
i personally would love to be able to use MM races like kobolds orcs and bugbears as a player, right now if you are allowed to use them, they have no racial feats for you to use, just super awsome powers
i would like to see Kobolds in particuler be allowed for all players to use, at will minar action shifting is alot though, but being small and having most of the commonly used or superior weapons off limits or taking penelties for using it, you should get some badass power for taking that penelty
on the flip side you have bugbears, oversized lets your mordenkrad or gauge be a 1W = 2d8 weapon and they have perfect stats to be a slayer, meaning they can bang out 4d8 power strikes multiple times an encounter in early heroic teir. their racial power is kinda crappy but who needs one when you can out slam most of the early daily powers multiple times an encounter at heroic teir?
i would like to see the races tweaked for balance, otherwise every other striker in the game would be a bugbear.
so say we got a book that is chock full of monster manual races Paragon paths, epic destinies and feats for them. would you go for it? i would
!!Ok, now that's out of the way....
Yes. A monster race book could be cool. IMO, they should still put "Your DM might not let you play these", and "don't wine if your DM say's kobolds are attacked on sight" somewhere in there.
Also, include mindflayers.
That would be a must-have in my collection for sure. "Player's Handbook 4: Monster Edition" 
I also vote on adding Mindflayers to the book.
That would be a must-have in my collection for sure. "Player's Handbook 4: Monster Edition"
I also vote on adding Mindflayers to the book.
More like "Player's Options: Unlikely Heroes".
That would be a must-have in my collection for sure. "Player's Handbook 4: Monster Edition"
I also vote on adding Mindflayers to the book.
More like "Player's Options: Unlikely Heroes".
Players Options: Jumping the Shark
That would be a must-have in my collection for sure. "Player's Handbook 4: Monster Edition"
I also vote on adding Mindflayers to the book.
I would say every monster that is both sentient and humanoid should be included.
That would be a must-have in my collection for sure. "Player's Handbook 4: Monster Edition"
I also vote on adding Mindflayers to the book.
More like "Player's Options: Unlikely Heroes".
Players Options: Jumping the Shark
idk about that. D&D has been so outrageous in the past that it's really hard for it to have a Jump the shark moment anymore. Once you've had the option to play gods as a serious part of the game, everything else is non-jumpy by comparison.
That would be a must-have in my collection for sure. "Player's Handbook 4: Monster Edition"
I also vote on adding Mindflayers to the book.
More like "Player's Options: Unlikely Heroes".
Players Options: Jumping the Shark
idk about that. D&D has been so outrageous in the past that it's really hard for it to have a Jump the shark moment anymore. Once you've had the option to play gods as a serious part of the game, everything else is non-jumpy by comparison.
Bingo! Seriously is playing a Hobgoblin really as out there as playing a humanoid plant that talks in plurals, or a sapient chunk of quartz?
That would be a must-have in my collection for sure. "Player's Handbook 4: Monster Edition"
I also vote on adding Mindflayers to the book.
More like "Player's Options: Unlikely Heroes".
Players Options: Jumping the Shark
idk about that. D&D has been so outrageous in the past that it's really hard for it to have a Jump the shark moment anymore. Once you've had the option to play gods as a serious part of the game, everything else is non-jumpy by comparison.
Bingo! Seriously is playing a Hobgoblin really as out there as playing a humanoid plant that talks in plurals, or a sapient chunk of quartz?
Heroes of Unlikely Origin would be wonderful.
Especially if it also included monster-friendly classes that let you use signature monster-like abilities such as natural weapon at-wills with encounter and daily eminations like breath weapons and petrifying gazes. <3
The more the merrier.
In addition to fleshing out the current monstrous races, add some more.
As a DM, certain races can be disallowed in any campaign if they do not fit the setting. There could be a fantasy world without elves for example.
I suppose I could take the hour drive to their place and knock on the door and yell it at them in person, but that might get wierd.
erdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">I'm not sure I can say "Hell yeah" loud enough for them to hear me.
I suppose I could take the hour drive to their place and knock on the door and yell it at them in person, but that might get wierd.
And possibly illegal.
erdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">I'm not sure I can say "Hell yeah" loud enough for them to hear me.
I suppose I could take the hour drive to their place and knock on the door and yell it at them in person, but that might get wierd.
And possibly illegal.
Only if you appear hostile. You could walk in, ask the receptionist to leave a message for Mike Mearls. On the message you'd say what you want and leave contact info. Then you tell the receptionist to have a wonderful day, walk out of the building, get in your car and drive the hour back home.
@ salla & kalnaur well that is his right to freedom of speech. just not a very good idea..... would get the point across though
players options: unlikley heroes would be a great name for it too,
new monster based classes would be awsome (for the love of god dont start arguing about essentials vs AEDU)
but they do that in the form of paragon paths and epic destinies and feats, so i dont know if new classes are nessessary, just welcome
erdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">I'm not sure I can say "Hell yeah" loud enough for them to hear me.
I suppose I could take the hour drive to their place and knock on the door and yell it at them in person, but that might get wierd.
And possibly illegal.
Only if you appear hostile. You could walk in, ask the receptionist to leave a message for Mike Mearls. On the message you'd say what you want and leave contact info. Then you tell the receptionist to have a wonderful day, walk out of the building, get in your car and drive the hour back home.
Or you could just send an email saying "this is my opinion of printing the MM races as PC races (see attachment)." Then attach a video of youself yelling "Hell Yeah!" just make sure the sound is clear, don't want your opinion misinterpreted.
i was saying the Kobold is balanced, being small is kinda crudy and i love shifty
@ salla & kalnaur well that is his right to freedom of speech. just not a very good idea..... would get the point across though
players options: unlikley heroes would be a great name for it too,
new monster based classes would be awsome (for the love of god dont start arguing about essentials vs AEDU)
but they do that in the form of paragon paths and epic destinies and feats, so i dont know if new classes are nessessary, just welcome
I think Illithid would be an interesting class concept.
I'd REALLY love to see a book or series of articles on each of the MM1 and MM2 Monster Races, plus Bladelings. The Playing Gnolls article could be retconned to be part of this series, even, if they're one article entries, unsupported.
What I wouldn't want to see is them relegated to Unearthed Arcana because they're unconventional choices that they don't want us to use. My reason being that UA articles don't go into the D&Di Compendium or Character Builder. So that would make playing them a lot harder.
But I say, HELL YES!
And I've already sent an email to D&Di on this topic.
i was saying the Kobold is balanced, being small is kinda crudy and i love shifty
@ salla & kalnaur well that is his right to freedom of speech. just not a very good idea..... would get the point across though
players options: unlikley heroes would be a great name for it too,
new monster based classes would be awsome (for the love of god dont start arguing about essentials vs AEDU)
but they do that in the form of paragon paths and epic destinies and feats, so i dont know if new classes are nessessary, just welcome
I think Illithid would be an interesting class concept.
I think Illithid would be an interesting set of classes/themes.
1) Illithid dominator/thrall master (a psionic leader with minions).
2) Illithid mind blaster (psionic striker).
Edit: though I really would prefer for it to be done with a race and/or theme than to be made up as a class. Actually, I would like to see racial powers of different levels come into play (racial powers with an associated level that a character can swap out a normal class power for).
About driving to them and shouting "hell yeah" at them.
I don't drive.
I do live about an hour away from the Seattle area though.
And I have already sent an e-mail mentioning that while everything can be core, the perogative of the DM is to veto material if he or she so wishes. The job of the game company is to give us fun things to play that might get people to play who otherwise might not.
Maybe as a concept, but I don't know if I could stomach it as a published class. I mean, yeah, Vampires are now going to be a class. But there's a history of heroic vampires in media. Illithids exist only in D&D, and their only history has been anathema to all other races, you know, eating their brains and all.
I'd REALLY love to see a book or series of articles on each of the MM1 and MM2 Monster Races, plus Bladelings. The Playing Gnolls article could be retconned to be part of this series, even, if they're one article entries, unsupported.
What I wouldn't want to see is them relegated to Unearthed Arcana because they're unconventional choices that they don't want us to use. My reason being that UA articles don't go into the D&Di Compendium or Character Builder. So that would make playing them a lot harder.
But I say, HELL YES!
And I've already sent an email to D&Di on this topic.
Yeah just as a concept it's very interesting, but a Mind Flayer class would be a bit of a no-no in practice. I really would like to see something for playing monster races and classes published in offical channels. Preferably an article series, which would be cheaper.
Damn people, I was kidding.
About driving to them and shouting "hell yeah" at them.
I don't drive.
I do live about an hour away from the Seattle area though.
And I have already sent an e-mail mentioning that while everything can be core, the perogative of the DM is to veto material if he or she so wishes. The job of the game company is to give us fun things to play that might get people to play who otherwise might not.
Well, not only that, but it's also their job to re-invigorate their base. Eventually people get sick of the hum-drum stereotypical player races and want something different (something that isn't fulfilled by some of the odd player races they have tacked on).
Seriously, I don't know why people don't realize that those abilities will very probably be removed if those ever become PC races. If you really want those abilities, it's in your interest that those races remain NPC races so that when you ask to play one in the future your DM won't point you to a much more appropriately balanced and designed PC version.
But on the flip side, this means that Shifty is a terrible excuse for not creating a PC version of the Kobold because, duh, it can just be removed and replaced with something more more appropriately balanced. Ta-da! Seriously, it's not even that hard to come up with something. Here's a quick PC version of Kobolds that a wrote up a while ago:
+2 DEX and either +2 CON or +2 CHA
Small Size
6 Square Speed
Low-Light Vision
Common, Draconic
+2 Stealth, +2 Thievery
Shifty: Whenever you shift, you gain a +1 racial bonus to your Armor Class, Reflex Defense, and all saving throws until the beginning of your next turn. This bonus applies only once, regardless of the number of times that you shift before the beginning of your next turn.
Trap Sense: You gain a +2 bonus to defenses against traps.
Skitter and Scamper (Kobold Racial Power)
Encounter
Minor Action, Personal
Effect: Until the end of your turn, your enemies cannot target you with their free action, immediate action, or opportunity action attacks.
Though, even this version of Shifty might be too powerful, come to think of it. Hmm...
EDIT: Read the wrong thing as shifty.
Yeah, it is a bit much, considering you can probably shift alot.
I like the racial power though.
Yeah, it is a bit much, considering you can probably shift alot.
I gave it to them with the idea, though, that Trap Sense was sort of underpowered as a major racial feature because it just isn't going to come up that often in most campaigns, so it was supposed to basically make up for two major racial features. I did come up with it pretty spur of the moment, though, so it's probably not perfect, and you're probably right now that I think about it more. But anyway, I was just trying to illustrate the point that Shifty could simply be reduced to a different sort of less powerful racial feature.
I like the racial power though.
Thanks! ^_^
Since non-AEDU-style classes are incredibly simple to design, I'd love to see an Illithid class in Unearthed Arcana. But not outside of it.
I think that they could save it for a book on the "Far Realms" or "Realms of Madness" or whatever they call it...
Since non-AEDU-style classes are incredibly simple to design, I'd love to see an Illithid class in Unearthed Arcana. But not outside of it.
I think that they could save it for a book on the "Far Realms" or "Realms of Madness" or whatever they call it...
I don't think it would sell. Mind Flayers are evil, irrevocably so (at least without a Sanctify ritual, which would be awesome). They aren't really going to work in a typical party.
Since non-AEDU-style classes are incredibly simple to design, I'd love to see an Illithid class in Unearthed Arcana. But not outside of it.
I think that they could save it for a book on the "Far Realms" or "Realms of Madness" or whatever they call it...
I don't think it would sell. Mind Flayers are evil, irrevocably so (at least without a Sanctify ritual, which would be awesome). They aren't really going to work in a typical party.
Well, really... on this I agree...
Since non-AEDU-style classes are incredibly simple to design, I'd love to see an Illithid class in Unearthed Arcana. But not outside of it.
I think that they could save it for a book on the "Far Realms" or "Realms of Madness" or whatever they call it...
I don't think it would sell. Mind Flayers are evil, irrevocably so (at least without a Sanctify ritual, which would be awesome). They aren't really going to work in a typical party.
Aside from an entry in the MM, why are mind flayers evil?
Edit: By this, I mean aren't they just treating other races like livestock? Is a mind blast really anything more evil than a sledgehammer to the head? Is keeping a thrall more evil than keeping a pet? Or keeping an animal bound in one place until the day it's slaughtered?
Since non-AEDU-style classes are incredibly simple to design, I'd love to see an Illithid class in Unearthed Arcana. But not outside of it.
I think that they could save it for a book on the "Far Realms" or "Realms of Madness" or whatever they call it...
I don't think it would sell. Mind Flayers are evil, irrevocably so (at least without a Sanctify ritual, which would be awesome). They aren't really going to work in a typical party.
Aside from an entry in the MM, why are mind flayers evil?
They reproduce by infesting the brain of a living humanoid. They feed on the brains of those that they don't implant with larvae. They keep slaves for both of the prior reasons. They come from a plane of existence that doesn't just want to change the universe, but wants to destroy it. Even other evil races of the Underdark fear them, as well as the Githyanki. They're not so much evil as they are anathema to all other beings.
Since non-AEDU-style classes are incredibly simple to design, I'd love to see an Illithid class in Unearthed Arcana. But not outside of it.
I think that they could save it for a book on the "Far Realms" or "Realms of Madness" or whatever they call it...
I don't think it would sell. Mind Flayers are evil, irrevocably so (at least without a Sanctify ritual, which would be awesome). They aren't really going to work in a typical party.
Aside from an entry in the MM, why are mind flayers evil?
They reproduce by infesting the brain of a living humanoid. They feed on the brains of those that they don't implant with larvae. They keep slaves for both of the prior reasons. They come from a plane of existence that doesn't just want to change the universe, but wants to destroy it. Even other evil races of the Underdark fear them, as well as the Githyanki. They're not so much evil as they are anathema to all other beings.
So what you're saying is they use humans like we use livestock. As for destroying the universe, I never read that. Does that include the far realm? If it doesn't, that seems very human to me (destroy that which is beneath you because it might threaten you).
Since non-AEDU-style classes are incredibly simple to design, I'd love to see an Illithid class in Unearthed Arcana. But not outside of it.
I think that they could save it for a book on the "Far Realms" or "Realms of Madness" or whatever they call it...
I don't think it would sell. Mind Flayers are evil, irrevocably so (at least without a Sanctify ritual, which would be awesome). They aren't really going to work in a typical party.
Aside from an entry in the MM, why are mind flayers evil?
They reproduce by infesting the brain of a living humanoid. They feed on the brains of those that they don't implant with larvae. They keep slaves for both of the prior reasons. They come from a plane of existence that doesn't just want to change the universe, but wants to destroy it. Even other evil races of the Underdark fear them, as well as the Githyanki. They're not so much evil as they are anathema to all other beings.
So what you're saying is they use humans like we use livestock. As for destroying the universe, I never read that. Does that include the far realm? If it doesn't, that seems very human to me (destroy that which is beneath you because it might threaten you).
This will tell you all you need to know about Mind Flayers. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illithid
A PC Mindflayer would simply not reproduce, and live on animal brains, and would not support the whole 'want to destroy the universe' agenda. Seems pretty simple to me.
That's quite a lot of variance from the established history of the species. I'm not against the creation of the class, I'm for it actually. I just don't think WotC would publish it in anything other than an Unearthed Arcana article.
A PC Mindflayer would simply not reproduce, and live on animal brains, and would not support the whole 'want to destroy the universe' agenda. Seems pretty simple to me.
That's quite a lot of variance from the established history of the species. I'm not against the creation of the class, I'm for it actually. I just don't think WotC would publish it in anything other than an Unearthed Arcana article.
Illithids aren't very different from vampires. There's no reason that a heroic illithid couldn't be someone whose mind wasn't fully taken over by the implanted illithid spawn, and who now seeks to prevent the more usual illithids from spreading their curse even further. Not to mention that illithids and standard races can have common goals, since illithids would be quite unhappy if the world was suddenly out of humanoids to enthrall, eat, or convert.
A PC Mindflayer would simply not reproduce, and live on animal brains, and would not support the whole 'want to destroy the universe' agenda. Seems pretty simple to me.
That's quite a lot of variance from the established history of the species. I'm not against the creation of the class, I'm for it actually. I just don't think WotC would publish it in anything other than an Unearthed Arcana article.
Illithids aren't very different from vampires. There's no reason that a heroic illithid couldn't be someone whose mind wasn't fully taken over by the implanted illithid spawn, and who now seeks to prevent the more usual illithids from spreading their curse even further. Not to mention that illithids and standard races can have common goals, since illithids would be quite unhappy if the world was suddenly out of humanoids to enthrall, eat, or convert.
There is in game precedent for such a character from 2e known as The Adversary. The Adversary was someone that retained their self after infection and fought secretly against the Illithids plans.
thats my take on it, not that its any more valid then anybody elses
one thing i love about 4e is that there are no alignment restrictions, as such this leaves the RP up to the player as such an inherently evil race/class should be avaliable for player use.
thats my take on it, not that its any more valid then anybody elses
I prefer worlds where no race is inherently evil. A "shades-o-gray" type world where even the bad guys aren't wholesale evil and the heroes are often flawed and cantankerous at best. Worlds like that offer more options. If I want to play a bugbear with the innocence of a child I will!
This will tell you all you need to know about Mind Flayers. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illithid
That link only mentions them wanting to conquer the universe, not destroy it. And that is a quality so human it's almost redeeming in a twisted way.
i would rather rule the universe then destroy it i would rule with an iron fist!!!!!!!
I think ruling it would be a big headache. Besides, all the fun is in the conquest.
On the other hand, as an Eberron fan, PC racial write ups for goblinoids and orcs would be cool.
Medusas would be easy enough, as well. Give them a choice between a slowing gaze or a poison bite ala drow powers, and then some racial powers for better versions and a feat to get the option they missed.
People have been homebrewing these things since at least AD&D, so I can't imagine anyone now would find it hard to figure something workable out.
There's no reason that a heroic illithid couldn't be someone whose mind wasn't fully taken over by the implanted illithid spawn, and who now seeks to prevent the more usual illithids from spreading their curse even further.
This was the premise for an Illithid Paragon Path I wrote up a long while back.
I still dislike the idea of "racial" character classes for the record, even with pseudo-races like Illithids and Vampires. Themes, Patagon Paths, Feats, and Boons are a much better way to carry out that concept. If anything, racial character classes should exist within the hybrid system rather than as a full class by themselves.
Mind flayers would be taking things a little far for my taste - something about the 'race that subsists only on the brains of sentient creatures and reproduces only by implanting parasitic tadpoles in sentient humanoids.
That lore may not be valid in the present edition.
A PC Mindflayer would simply not reproduce, and live on animal brains, and would not support the whole 'want to destroy the universe' agenda. Seems pretty simple to me.
Also if brought out of the Underdark he would sparkle in the sunlight ... wait .... nevermind
A PC Mindflayer would simply not reproduce, and live on animal brains, and would not support the whole 'want to destroy the universe' agenda. Seems pretty simple to me.
Also if brought out of the Underdark he would sparkle in the sunlight ... wait .... nevermind
Actually they would. They are described as having a coating of mucus on their skin which may be quite shiny.
This was the premise for an Illithid Paragon Path I wrote up a long while back.
I still dislike the idea of "racial" character classes for the record, even with pseudo-races like Illithids and Vampires. Themes, Patagon Paths, Feats, and Boons are a much better way to carry out that concept. If anything, racial character classes should exist within the hybrid system rather than as a full class by themselves.
A rich enough monster concept can work as a class, but most monsters do not have as rich and varied a concept as vampires do. Most monsters in D&D have been reduced to or only ever had about four "things" that they do, with anything else being equivalent to class levels, so they're not all worth individual classes of their own. Vampires are fairly unique in that they basically have a bunch of random powers and traits attributed to them, so that "vampire" covers almost as much variety as "demon" or "devil." Illithids, on the other hand, are just psions with a really nasty grapple attack.
I too would greatly like such a book. I'd argue this would be a time to get the community involved. As we have seen lately they have been very survey happy at the end of some articles (like rule of three). Have players vote for 6-8 monsters to throw into a phb4 style book. If some monsters are too buff then the player gets the runt version. Not every monster is equal to all others of ther ilk.
this would probably be the best thing that could happen.
But hey, I'm a big proponent of evil pc's, so that doesn't bother me.
I can see Medusa rogues with self-poisoning capabilities now...
Here's an idea: release the book in the form of an Eberron expansion titled, "The Hoards of Droaam".
That would be a book about piles of gold and treasure.
Here's an idea: release the book in the form of an Eberron expansion titled, "The Hoards of Droaam".
That would be a book about piles of gold and treasure.
Typo hilarity!
Here's an idea: release the book in the form of an Eberron expansion titled, "The Hoards of Droaam".
That would be a book about piles of gold and treasure.
You say that as if there's something wrong with that.
Here's an idea: release the book in the form of an Eberron expansion titled, "The Hoards of Droaam".
That would be a book about piles of gold and treasure.
You say that as if there's something wrong with that.
nothing wrong with another adventures vault in my opinion, but i would rather have a bunch of races
Another race that might make sense as a pc is the Rakshasa, since 4e retconned it as the Deva's sinister counterpart. Since it is possible for a Deva to fall and to be redeemed on its own merit, why not play a Rakshasa on the road to redemption? Besides, Changlings prove that self-transformation is not overpowered at 1st level.
Fantastic idea. The concept of a licentious Rakshasa, that isn't really evil but isn't all that concerned with returning to grace is one I'd enjoy playing.
maybe let them choose an encounter from the next set and use it as a daily perhaps...
i would love to see raksasha return, i do recall they were able to choose powers above their level right?
maybe let them choose an encounter from the next set and use it as a daily perhaps...
I have no recollection of that.
i would love to see raksasha return, i do recall they were able to choose powers above their level right?
maybe let them choose an encounter from the next set and use it as a daily perhaps...
I have no recollection of that.
then i may be thinking of something else....
I'd rather just see a few heritage feats that give a claw attack and such to Changelings, maybe in an Unearthed Arcana. Changelings work well as a base to play a Rakshasa.
well you can use a changling to effectivly play any race, thats the beauty of them you can fluff them to be anything.
but what normally happens is they want to take advantage of changling trick i had a guy who played a stormsoul gensi but it dident help his build at all so i told him to be a changling fluffed to be a stormsoul genasi in 4 sessions he dropped the facade of being a stormsoul so he could kill people and replace himself in their role (i had alot of fun DMing this though)
That and you better damn well give me my Githyanki wizards. The Yuan Ti idea was also sweet, and similarly I really wish we could play as Lizardmen.
Didn't mean to derail the thread with my misspelling. How about "The Hordes of Droamm" instead?
That would almost assuredly relegate it to Eberron campaigns only, whereas this book should be marketed as useable in any campaign setting that has the races in question in it.
well you can use a changling to effectivly play any race, thats the beauty of them you can fluff them to be anything.
but what normally happens is they want to take advantage of changling trick i had a guy who played a stormsoul gensi but it dident help his build at all so i told him to be a changling fluffed to be a stormsoul genasi in 4 sessions he dropped the facade of being a stormsoul so he could kill people and replace himself in their role (i had alot of fun DMing this though)
Eh? You can use a changeling to effectively play a race whose primary rules attribute is that it can change its shape. You can refluff ANY race, it's the mechanics that you get stuck with.
well you can use a changling to effectivly play any race, thats the beauty of them you can fluff them to be anything.
but what normally happens is they want to take advantage of changling trick i had a guy who played a stormsoul gensi but it dident help his build at all so i told him to be a changling fluffed to be a stormsoul genasi in 4 sessions he dropped the facade of being a stormsoul so he could kill people and replace himself in their role (i had alot of fun DMing this though)
Eh? You can use a changeling to effectively play a race whose primary rules attribute is that it can change its shape. You can refluff ANY race, it's the mechanics that you get stuck with.
true enough
i would love to see raksasha return, i do recall they were able to choose powers above their level right?
maybe let them choose an encounter from the next set and use it as a daily perhaps...
In 3.5e, a Rakshasa pc at 1st level was counted as having 7 spellcaster levels as a Sorcerer. If I'm not mistaken, a Rakshasa sorcerer could theoretically become a lich at 4th level, assuming they took Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd level.
i would love to see raksasha return, i do recall they were able to choose powers above their level right?
maybe let them choose an encounter from the next set and use it as a daily perhaps...
In 3.5e, a Rakshasa pc at 1st level was counted as having 7 spellcaster levels as a Sorcerer. If I'm not mistaken, a Rakshasa sorcerer could theoretically become a lich at 4th level, assuming they took Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd level.
yeah that
Oh yeah, level adjustment. Yeah, my group wasn't the best at paying attention to level adjustment, so my earlier statement is probably incorrect.
im just happy level adjustments are gone
yeah definately rather see a weaker version of a race than level adjustments
Absolutely agree.
There were a lot of sacred cows sacrificed for the sake of creating 4e, and these were two significant ones.
i would love the monster manual races to get flex stats as well :D
Except for Bladelings. Because nobody cares about Bladelings. If there's one race that won't be making the cut, I beg of God (WotC) to take this deformed lamb to spare the flock.
Eberron has a lot of monster races that work as PC's for the environment.
I would be very happy to see these monster races get the support of the PC races.
Except for Bladelings. Because nobody cares about Bladelings. If there's one race that won't be making the cut, I beg of God (WotC) to take this deformed lamb to spare the flock.
Bladelings are a fine enough concept. The issue is in their execution.
They need to be a bit more like Marrow or Spyke from X-Men, or like the cover of Return of the Living Dead 3, and less like a hedgehog.
Except for Bladelings. Because nobody cares about Bladelings. If there's one race that won't be making the cut, I beg of God (WotC) to take this deformed lamb to spare the flock.
Bladelings are a fine enough concept. The issue is in their execution.
They need to be a bit more like Marrow or Spyke from X-Men, or like the cover of Return of the Living Dead 3, and less like a hedgehog.
bladelings are just... i cant see myself being one.
dex and wis are covered by elves who are better at... well everything since they have a full racial write up and is a dev favorite (like dragonborn, teiflings, eladrin, dwarves etc)
bad: one language, no flex stat, one skill bonus,
good: acid resist and razer storm.
with a good racial write up of feats and the ability to use your spikes as honost to god weapon a flex stat, an additional language, improved blade storm without a feat this would be a good race
but currently its not worth the "hey spike butt" jokes and how you cant sit in a chair without shreding it to peices.
bladelings are just... i cant see myself being one.
dex and wis are covered by elves who are better at... well everything since they have a full racial write up and is a dev favorite (like dragonborn, teiflings, eladrin, dwarves etc)
bad: one language, no flex stat, one skill bonus,
good: acid resist and razer storm.
with a good racial write up of feats and the ability to use your spikes as honost to god weapon a flex stat, an additional language, improved blade storm without a feat this would be a good race
but currently its not worth the "hey spike butt" jokes and how you cant sit in a chair without shreding it to peices.
They certainly need a proper writeup instead of the half-hearted one they recieved, but the race could easily become something interesting if they put some work into it instead of "Oh hey we added spikes to a mans."
Bladelings never got a player write-up. What they got was a Monster Manual style write-up, plus one feat. That did not make them an official player race. They are still on the level of Orcs and Kobolds.
+1
Bladelings never got a player write-up. What they got was a Monster Manual style write-up, plus one feat. That did not make them an official player race. They are still on the level of Orcs and Kobolds.
They're not on the level of Orcs and Kobolds. Orcs and Kobolds are clearly prefaced as DM stats that can maybe be used for PCs after consideration. There is no such preface for Bladelings. Also, Orcs and Kobolds don't have racial feats. Bladelings have one.
I can agree that Bladelings aren't necessarily player stats, but they're definitely not necessarily monster stats either. They're in a unique limbo status.
Edit: As an aside, I rather think that Bladelings have a lot of potential. The key is to make them look less stupid. I think that they should more resemble the Skarn race that showed up in the 3.5 book Magic of Incarnum. They were spiky, and it's not like they'll make a return otherwise.
I'm really amazed that they keep doing the hedgehog look.
I want to play a satyr. I want real write ups for bugbears, goblins, hobgoblins, etc. Azers. Half-Ogres.
Kill the bladelings, and I'm with ya.
I want to play a satyr. I want real write ups for bugbears, goblins, hobgoblins, etc. Azers. Half-Ogres.
Here's a pretty well done half-giant race, if you're interested. It's free as well. www.emeraldpresspdf.com/combatadvantage....
So, what would I like to see in it?
Well, anything that can take on a medium sized (although I do tend to push the limits of what counts as medium) form with arms. Legs are a bonus... (if the old Capcom RPG Breath of Fire could have a character like Bleu, then I'm not going to worry too much)
I just wants my DL....
Also, include mindflayers.
Cute little anima Mindflayer! <3
Racial feats are dead. Utilities are the only thing we're going to get.
Which sucks because Racial feats are some of the more interesting feats out there(well I suppose ti depends on the race).
well that does suck but i think when they look at the forums they will see that there is a pretty big demand for them so i do think they will include racial feats for the races that dont have them
i would like feats AND utilities
And if they ever publish rules for monsters that don't have playable stats, I'd love to see stats for Lizardfolk, Yuan-ti (maybe an Unaligned/Good tribe that worships the World Serpent?), Dark Creepers, and maybe Jann (who haven't popped up this edition, but they'd be perfect for a PC race).
Of course, Teiflings exist because of a deal with Infernal entities, yet they go by racial feats, many of which work quite well flavor-and-mechanics-wise. And Vryloka have similarly been around a while, though maybe not as long as the Teiflings, and they too are born "naturally" into this world. So should there be Vryloka racial feats? Or Teifling utilities? Perhaps a mix for both? Perhaps that would be too confusing.
Certain races jive better with racial feats than others. For races that occur naturally in the world (I stretch the definition of "normally"), like Kobolds or Dragonborn, racial feats are appropriate. A Shade or Vryloka, however, who exist because of a specified deal or ritual (the Shade in particular, as each must perform the Trial of Five Darknesses willingly) make more sense with utilities, as they actively draw upon the power of the Shadowfell.
Of course, Teiflings exist because of a deal with Infernal entities, yet they go by racial feats, many of which work quite well flavor-and-mechanics-wise. And Vryloka have similarly been around a while, though maybe not as long as the Teiflings, and they too are born "naturally" into this world. So should there be Vryloka racial feats? Or Teifling utilities? Perhaps a mix for both? Perhaps that would be too confusing.
I could bear seeing some racial utilities for some of the more innately magical races. It doesn't feel right with natural races to me. Fey, Shadow, Immortal, Elemental, or even potential Aberrant races would all be pretty well suited to racial utilities. Though a natural race that is tied to a the Primal power source could probably get away with racial utility powers as well.
I don't mind the death of racial feats considering how many of them have no reason being racially restricted. If it doesn't actually interact with a race's mechanics, it shouldn't be a racial feat, and there's a whole lot of 'already messed that one up' in the books.
What about the racial feats that exist for flavor reasons? I mean sure, they could have done racial feats with more than one race listed as a perquisite, (For example, doing fey racial feats for the Eladrin/Drow/Elf/Gnome/etc set). That may have made certain feats more common sense, and given a sense of identity to different racial groupings, as well as individual races.
What about the racial feats that exist for flavor reasons? I mean sure, they could have done racial feats with more than one race listed as a perquisite, (For example, doing fey racial feats for the Eladrin/Drow/Elf/Gnome/etc set). That may have made certain feats more common sense, and given a sense of identity to different racial groupings, as well as individual races.
Unless a feat interacts with a race's power or mechanics, I don't think it should be racial. It's that simple. Dodge Giants should not be racial; anybody can learn to dodge giants. Dwarven Weapon Training should not be racial; anybody can learn to swing axes or hammers. Enlarged Dragon Breath *should* be racial, because not everybody can hork up a blast of lightning.
What about the racial feats that exist for flavor reasons? I mean sure, they could have done racial feats with more than one race listed as a perquisite, (For example, doing fey racial feats for the Eladrin/Drow/Elf/Gnome/etc set). That may have made certain feats more common sense, and given a sense of identity to different racial groupings, as well as individual races.
Unless a feat interacts with a race's power or mechanics, I don't think it should be racial. It's that simple. Dodge Giants should not be racial; anybody can learn to dodge giants. Dwarven Weapon Training should not be racial; anybody can learn to swing axes or hammers. Enlarged Dragon Breath *should* be racial, because not everybody can hork up a blast of lightning.
I would like to emphasise two things: One, you mention that this is what you think, which is good because that means you know it's subjective. Second, 90% of the time, I agree that mechanics should be at the fore. But, and this is a big but, characters need some flavour, and flavourful feats such as Dwarven Weapon Training is honestly kinda cool, as is the Minotaur feat that gives them saves to getting lost, and a bonus to perception, I think. Point being that yes, I want those mechanically cool feats, but really, must we all optimise to the nth degree, or could we use the bits of flavour? Honestly, if they did away with feats, those mechanical ones would probably be worked into the race as bonus options anyway. But waht about the flavour added by feats? That's some of the funnest stuff.
Fluff can and sometimes should over-ride mechanics for prerequisites. Racial feats and racial class builds are those times.
I rarely agree with you on flavour vs. mechanics issues. This time, I think I easily can, inasmuch as that the flavour of a racial feat or class should help a player embrace the flavour of their race, and not just the mechanics.
Then again, I like mechanics that complement, not run counter to flavour, and vice versa. Flavour should not override mechanics any more than mechanics should override flavour. To much of one or the other, and you either have a novel or a math problem. Neither makes a game by itself.
In other words, I think they should stop encouraging players to play Generic Race Member #45829
The problem, to be, is that it forces flavor onto a character that may not be appropriate. It forces stereotypes that may not be true for any given character. I don't think the 'flavor', particularly the bland flavor of mechanically enforced stereotypes, is worth the restriction.
In other words, I think they should stop encouraging players to play Generic Race Member #45829
Doesn't that just make everyone more bland? I mean, without the option to choose to fit some of the stereotypes you might as well always play a human. Would a Dwarf be interesting if they didn't have their weapon proficiency racial trait? The stereotypes exist because people like them, and they offer the opportunity to play against type.
The problem, to be, is that it forces flavor onto a character that may not be appropriate. It forces stereotypes that may not be true for any given character. I don't think the 'flavor', particularly the bland flavor of mechanically enforced stereotypes, is worth the restriction.
In other words, I think they should stop encouraging players to play Generic Race Member #45829
Two of the racial feats I like that were mostly flavour and a bit of mechanics to go alnog with them were the Moon Elf Resilience and Sun Elf Grace. These were in the Forgotten Realms Player Guide, you could only pick one, and it was actually (despite the name) for Eladrin. Each one gave a small bonus when using the fey step power in some instance. The real power in them was that really, since they were both situational (but situational on being bloodied) that the given situation would or would not come up more often than not depending on class and play style, and it had the flavour of being a sun or moon Eladrin.
For example, if Dwarven Weapon Proficiency was instead "Mountain Dwarf Weapon Proficiency" or "Hill Dwarf Weapon Proficiency" with the Mountain Dwarves hefting large axes and whatnot, and the hill dwarves being partial to smaller thrown hammers and the like? And you could only pick one? That, to me, is spiffy cool, because I just picked up a new weapon proficiency, hopefully, but also helped define my specific racial background, or training. Give me three options (Maybe deeper dwarves of the Underdark prefer spears or some such) and you'd have me hooked, because each one gives me flavour and crunch.
For me, that's better than having my breath weapon on my Dragonborn get bigger. Heck, to me, those should be a racial improvement option at a specific level that I just get to choose, no feat needed. Probably level 4. Pick from making the blast bigger, getting to chuck it or add more elements, for example. Get to choose form those same options again at 8th level. Don't make me spend feats on making my race badass. Make me spend feats to make my race and my character different, a subrace if you will. That would drive me to be more interested in playing any race.
I agree with you Kal.
And then, the world a'sploded.
