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Rituals for non-spell casters

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
oggy_ben_doggy
Jul 14, 2008 15:57:08 I like the ritual mechanic, it gives the spell slingers non - combat stuff to do.

but what about giving the fighter non-combat stuff to do?

What about having "rituals" for skills like Diplomacy? you could, for example, through a party to gather information, or inprove your reputation, maybe give a bonus to diplomacy checks in that town/city for some time. a Thievery ritual might be setting a trap, a Nature ritual might be hunting for food or making wpns out of wood and stone...
#2
Nekoazu
Jul 14, 2008 16:17:20
What about having "rituals" for skills like Diplomacy? you could, for example, through a party to gather information

There's streetwise for that.
Nature ritual might be hunting for food

Dungeoneering already includes foraging for food in underground areas, whilst Nature already covers the rest of the foraging for food.

Reputation: What's the point of it?
Traps: might be implemented in PHB2.
Wood&Stone weapons: why even bother?
#3
alphasquirell
Jul 14, 2008 16:19:11 Skill Training + Ritual Casting. Boom, non spell-caster with Rituals.

Being a non spell-caster, they must use 2 feats to earn them, but it IS possible for the "brutish fighter" to use rituals. He just requires more training than a Wizard or Cleric would.
#4
skio
Jul 14, 2008 16:32:37 I have devised a system for crafting that resembles rituals.

Here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1060113
#5
Grazel
Jul 14, 2008 17:10:41 You don't have to be a caster to use rituals, just the caster classes tend to get it for free.

Anyone can take Ritual Casting feat as long as they're trained in Religion or Arcana. Also a ritual can be written to a scroll and that scroll can be used by anyone even if they don't have the ritual casting feat.

Most of the other things mentioned fall under skill checks and skill challenges which 4e already has.

The main point of rituals was to provide an alternate way to do some things (like open lock) when you don't have someone skilled at it directly, meaning it costs more (a set of thieve's tools and a trained rogue is faster and cheaper than the open lock ritual). For other things it is about the only way to do something but it covers things that are too involved to be covered in an encounter (like raise dead).
#6
oggy_ben_doggy
Jul 16, 2008 12:11:17 the way it works, the wizards, clerics, and sometimes Rangers will usually spend money on rituals, and be able to do these cool things. If someont is playing a diplomatic people person, it might be fun for that character to also do some cool things with diplomacy skill what others can't.
#7
DBrigner
Jul 24, 2008 16:11:35
Skill Training + Ritual Casting. Boom, non spell-caster with Rituals.

Being a non spell-caster, they must use 2 feats to earn them, but it IS possible for the "brutish fighter" to use rituals. He just requires more training than a Wizard or Cleric would.

Too reiderate a bit. Rituals = Magic. It stands to reason that those who are experienced in Magic (trained in Arcana, religon, etc. or clerics and wizards) would be better at rituals. No ritual has a prerequiste to be trained in a skill, and less often then not do rituals actually require a roll for efficiany. Yes your greatsword swinging monster of a Dragonborn fighter can cast rituals with 1 feat. But should a person based on martial combat excel in an area that's a namesake for spell slingers? I don't think so, not without training, which is as stated above by Alpha, 2 feats. Same reason a Wizard wouldn't be able to cover Melee combat the way a fight would.
#8
DBrigner
Jul 24, 2008 17:26:06
the way it works, the wizards, clerics, and sometimes Rangers will usually spend money on rituals, and be able to do these cool things. If someont is playing a diplomatic people person, it might be fun for that character to also do some cool things with diplomacy skill what others can't.

My group has devised a house rule concerning buying magic items based on diplomacy. It uses the optional purpose rule, where a player rolls 1d6
1: Item is 10% cheaper
2: Item is Base Price
3:Item is 10% more expensive
4:Item is 20% more expensive
5:Item is 30% more expensive
6:Item is 40% more expensive

The rule we use uses DC classes by level (pg. 42 in the DM Guide) to drop the price. Rolls Diplomacy, if you beat an easy DC you can drop the result by 10%, medium drop it by 20%, and hard drop it by 30%. The lowest you can go is -10 %, here's a few examples

Items level 1-3
10% drop DC 10
20% drop DC 15
30% drop DC 20
Items level 4-6
10% drop DC 13
20% drop DC 17
30% drop DC 21
etc.
For example (I don't have the books with me, so play along) you have a level 3 item that's worth 680 gold. The price changes according to the roll of the 6 sided dice, then the diplomacy roll, like so.
Level 3 Item base price 680
1d6 = 1. 612 (or 1d6 = 2 w/ Easy DC, 3 w/ medium DC, 4 w/ Hard DC)
1d6 = 2. 680 (or 1d6 = 3 w/ Easy DC, 4 w/ medium DC, 5 w/ Hard DC)
1d6 = 3. 748 (or 1d6 = 4 w/ Easy DC, 5 w/ medium DC, 6 w/ Hard DC)
1d6 = 4. 816 (or 1d6 = 5 w/ Easy DC, 6 w/ medium DC)
1d6 = 5. 884 (or 1d6 = 6 w/ Easy DC)
1d6 = 6. 952

I know this seems a bit complicated (something akin to 3.5 rules) but we like it, and it gives a Fighter who needs that new Vorpal Greatsword a reason to keep that silver tongued rogue alive (no matter how much he points said fighter's speach impediment.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 oggy_ben_doggy Jul 14, 2008 15:57:08	I like the ritual mechanic, it gives the spell slingers non - combat stuff to do. but what about giving the fighter non-combat stuff to do? What about having "rituals" for skills like Diplomacy? you could, for example, through a party to gather information, or inprove your reputation, maybe give a bonus to diplomacy checks in that town/city for some time. a Thievery ritual might be setting a trap, a Nature ritual might be hunting for food or making wpns out of wood and stone...
#2 Nekoazu Jul 14, 2008 16:17:20	What about having "rituals" for skills like Diplomacy? you could, for example, through a party to gather information There's streetwise for that. Nature ritual might be hunting for food Dungeoneering already includes foraging for food in underground areas, whilst Nature already covers the rest of the foraging for food. Reputation: What's the point of it? Traps: might be implemented in PHB2. Wood&Stone weapons: why even bother?
#3 alphasquirell Jul 14, 2008 16:19:11	Skill Training + Ritual Casting. Boom, non spell-caster with Rituals. Being a non spell-caster, they must use 2 feats to earn them, but it IS possible for the "brutish fighter" to use rituals. He just requires more training than a Wizard or Cleric would.
#4 skio Jul 14, 2008 16:32:37	I have devised a system for crafting that resembles rituals. Here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1060113
#5 Grazel Jul 14, 2008 17:10:41	You don't have to be a caster to use rituals, just the caster classes tend to get it for free. Anyone can take Ritual Casting feat as long as they're trained in Religion or Arcana. Also a ritual can be written to a scroll and that scroll can be used by anyone even if they don't have the ritual casting feat. Most of the other things mentioned fall under skill checks and skill challenges which 4e already has. The main point of rituals was to provide an alternate way to do some things (like open lock) when you don't have someone skilled at it directly, meaning it costs more (a set of thieve's tools and a trained rogue is faster and cheaper than the open lock ritual). For other things it is about the only way to do something but it covers things that are too involved to be covered in an encounter (like raise dead).
#6 oggy_ben_doggy Jul 16, 2008 12:11:17	the way it works, the wizards, clerics, and sometimes Rangers will usually spend money on rituals, and be able to do these cool things. If someont is playing a diplomatic people person, it might be fun for that character to also do some cool things with diplomacy skill what others can't.
#7 DBrigner Jul 24, 2008 16:11:35	Skill Training + Ritual Casting. Boom, non spell-caster with Rituals. Being a non spell-caster, they must use 2 feats to earn them, but it IS possible for the "brutish fighter" to use rituals. He just requires more training than a Wizard or Cleric would. Too reiderate a bit. Rituals = Magic. It stands to reason that those who are experienced in Magic (trained in Arcana, religon, etc. or clerics and wizards) would be better at rituals. No ritual has a prerequiste to be trained in a skill, and less often then not do rituals actually require a roll for efficiany. Yes your greatsword swinging monster of a Dragonborn fighter can cast rituals with 1 feat. But should a person based on martial combat excel in an area that's a namesake for spell slingers? I don't think so, not without training, which is as stated above by Alpha, 2 feats. Same reason a Wizard wouldn't be able to cover Melee combat the way a fight would.
#8 DBrigner Jul 24, 2008 17:26:06	the way it works, the wizards, clerics, and sometimes Rangers will usually spend money on rituals, and be able to do these cool things. If someont is playing a diplomatic people person, it might be fun for that character to also do some cool things with diplomacy skill what others can't. My group has devised a house rule concerning buying magic items based on diplomacy. It uses the optional purpose rule, where a player rolls 1d6 1: Item is 10% cheaper 2: Item is Base Price 3:Item is 10% more expensive 4:Item is 20% more expensive 5:Item is 30% more expensive 6:Item is 40% more expensive The rule we use uses DC classes by level (pg. 42 in the DM Guide) to drop the price. Rolls Diplomacy, if you beat an easy DC you can drop the result by 10%, medium drop it by 20%, and hard drop it by 30%. The lowest you can go is -10 %, here's a few examples Items level 1-3 10% drop DC 10 20% drop DC 15 30% drop DC 20 Items level 4-6 10% drop DC 13 20% drop DC 17 30% drop DC 21 etc. For example (I don't have the books with me, so play along) you have a level 3 item that's worth 680 gold. The price changes according to the roll of the 6 sided dice, then the diplomacy roll, like so. Level 3 Item base price 680 1d6 = 1. 612 (or 1d6 = 2 w/ Easy DC, 3 w/ medium DC, 4 w/ Hard DC) 1d6 = 2. 680 (or 1d6 = 3 w/ Easy DC, 4 w/ medium DC, 5 w/ Hard DC) 1d6 = 3. 748 (or 1d6 = 4 w/ Easy DC, 5 w/ medium DC, 6 w/ Hard DC) 1d6 = 4. 816 (or 1d6 = 5 w/ Easy DC, 6 w/ medium DC) 1d6 = 5. 884 (or 1d6 = 6 w/ Easy DC) 1d6 = 6. 952 I know this seems a bit complicated (something akin to 3.5 rules) but we like it, and it gives a Fighter who needs that new Vorpal Greatsword a reason to keep that silver tongued rogue alive (no matter how much he points said fighter's speach impediment.)