The question is when. It's all about timing. They probably want to feature the upcoming Elemental power source first.
Notably, other famous adventure locations also appeared on that map, like White Plume Mountain and the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.
Considering that the Temple of Elemental Evil lies between the eastern border of the League of Nerath and the Karkoth Empire on the 4e Core World Map, I think we can safely assume that the dungeon is going to be the feature of a Super Adventure eventually in 4e.
The question is when. It's all about timing. They probably want to feature the upcoming Elemental power source first.
Notably, other famous adventure locations also appeared on that map, like White Plume Mountain and the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.
Mordenkainen is rolling in his grave. Well, if he was in the grave. ;)
Considering that the Temple of Elemental Evil lies between the eastern border of the League of Nerath and the Karkoth Empire on the 4e Core World Map, I think we can safely assume that the dungeon is going to be the feature of a Super Adventure eventually in 4e.
The question is when. It's all about timing. They probably want to feature the upcoming Elemental power source first.
Notably, other famous adventure locations also appeared on that map, like White Plume Mountain and the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.
Mordenkainen is rolling in his grave. Well, if he was in the grave. ;)
+2
+3
Considering that the Temple of Elemental Evil lies between the eastern border of the League of Nerath and the Karkoth Empire on the 4e Core World Map, I think we can safely assume that the dungeon is going to be the feature of a Super Adventure eventually in 4e.
The question is when. It's all about timing. They probably want to feature the upcoming Elemental power source first.
Notably, other famous adventure locations also appeared on that map, like White Plume Mountain and the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.
Mordenkainen is rolling in his grave. Well, if he was in the grave. ;)
+2
. . . Why?
Considering that the Temple of Elemental Evil lies between the eastern border of the League of Nerath and the Karkoth Empire on the 4e Core World Map, I think we can safely assume that the dungeon is going to be the feature of a Super Adventure eventually in 4e.
The question is when. It's all about timing. They probably want to feature the upcoming Elemental power source first.
Notably, other famous adventure locations also appeared on that map, like White Plume Mountain and the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.
Mordenkainen is rolling in his grave. Well, if he was in the grave. ;)
+2
. . . Why?
My guess is that they're probably making fun of the fact that each of those classic and iconical Greyhawk locales should not be anywhere near each other.
Although radomly placing iconical Greyhawk modules around the "PoL/Nentir Vale setting" does create some jarring feelings, I must say I for one would be much pleased by an adaptation of The Temple of Elemental Evil for D&D 4, even if they change things around to fit the current setting...
An official, albeit reworked ToEE adventure (like the promotional Village of Homlet was) would go a long way towards facilitating an adaptation of the old adventure AND setting.
Do you want an even better idea? Why the hell don't they publish an update for the Greyhawk setting? Morbidly cliché for a medieval fantasy setting, but would most certainly bring a lot of nostalgia back to D&D 4th, and more effectively and less problematic than bringing old design and mechanics to the game...
Of course, they ARE just copypasted from Greyhawk. But these modules have taken on identities of their own beyond just the Greyhawk Campaign Setting – they're part of the identity of D&D; just like Pelor, Moradin, Corellon, and Gruumsh are, amongst other deities. They were stolen from Greyhawk too, because they've become part of what we understand as the Core D&D. But the Isle of Dread from Mystara is in the Feywild, and the Domains of Dread from Ravenloft are in the darklands of the Shadowfell. The Core Setting is an amalgam of all the core ideas we've come to understand as D&D. That's why Warforged and Thri-kreen have places to exist in the Core Setting, even if they herald from Eberron and Dark Sun respectively. The world is big enough and rich enough and yet vague enough to fit all of what we know as D&D within it.
You can't say the samething of Greyhawk – it's too cliché, limited by its history, and by its setting assumptions. That's why it had to be left by the wayside. But at the same time, it's also too similar to the Core Setting, and it holds too similar a marketing niche as a setting as the Forgotten Realms does.
That's why it's likely we're NOT going to get it anytime soon. Eberron books are magitech dungeonpunk, Dark Sun books are low fantasy sword & sorcery, Forgotten Realms books are high fantasy adventure. That they found room to house the Core World books as well is risky enough: the only reasons why it's flying are because readership paralysis can keep people from starting the other book lines ("where do I start? There's thirty years of novels! AAAAGGGH!!") and because people want to know more about the Nentir Vale setting, and they're tying it into the new products as well. Novels carry settings, and unfortunately, there's not much room, market-wise, for Greyhawk.
Well, they aren't remotely near each other – White Plume Mountain is at the utter south end of the eastern continent; the Temple of Elemental Evil is near the utter north of that same continent; the Lost Cavern of Tsojcanth is in the utter south of the western continent; the Nentir Vale is near the utter north of the same continent. I think people don't get how huge this scale is. It would take 10 days to travel on horse across the Nentir Vale. And it's just a tiny part of this map. The distances are about similar to those in Greyhawk.
Of course, they ARE just copypasted from Greyhawk. But these modules have taken on identities of their own beyond just the Greyhawk Campaign Setting – they're part of the identity of D&D; just like Pelor, Moradin, Corellon, and Gruumsh are, amongst other deities. They were stolen from Greyhawk too, because they've become part of what we understand as the Core D&D. But the Isle of Dread from Mystara is in the Feywild, and the Domains of Dread from Ravenloft are in the darklands of the Shadowfell. The Core Setting is an amalgam of all the core ideas we've come to understand as D&D. That's why Warforged and Thri-kreen have places to exist in the Core Setting, even if they herald from Eberron and Dark Sun respectively. The world is big enough and rich enough and yet vague enough to fit all of what we know as D&D within it.
You can't say the samething of Greyhawk – it's too cliché, limited by its history, and by its setting assumptions. That's why it had to be left by the wayside. But at the same time, it's also too similar to the Core Setting, and it holds too similar a marketing niche as a setting as the Forgotten Realms does.
That's why it's likely we're NOT going to get it anytime soon. Eberron books are magitech dungeonpunk, Dark Sun books are low fantasy sword & sorcery, Forgotten Realms books are high fantasy adventure. That they found room to house the Core World books as well is risky enough: the only reasons why it's flying are because readership paralysis can keep people from starting the other book lines ("where do I start? There's thirty years of novels! AAAAGGGH!!") and because people want to know more about the Nentir Vale setting, and they're tying it into the new products as well. Novels carry settings, and unfortunately, there's not much room, market-wise, for Greyhawk.
I agree with most of your points Marandahir, but the Thri-Kreen predate Dark Sun by 9 year or so, they first appeared on Monster Cards, then appeared first officially in a book in Monster Manual II (1st Edition), then Forgotten Realms Monstrous Compendium, then eventually made it to the Dragon magazine that gave us the Dark Sun preview.
In any case, thank you for the correction, and for not rejecting my mini-thesis here based on that mistake.
Considering that the Temple of Elemental Evil lies between the eastern border of the League of Nerath and the Karkoth Empire on the 4e Core World Map, I think we can safely assume that the dungeon is going to be the feature of a Super Adventure eventually in 4e.
The question is when. It's all about timing. They probably want to feature the upcoming Elemental power source first.
Notably, other famous adventure locations also appeared on that map, like White Plume Mountain and the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.
Mordenkainen is rolling in his grave. Well, if he was in the grave. ;)
+2
. . . Why?
My guess is that they're probably making fun of the fact that each of those classic and iconical Greyhawk locales should not be anywhere near each other.
I guess that's why I missed it. Since 4th is my first, I have no attachment to previous worlds. ;)
No room for warforged in my core setting based campaign... But otherwise great post.
It does seem odd to have Warforged in the Core Setting. But if you go back and read Playing Warforged from Dragon #364, apparently, they were commissioned to be created by King Ellidyr's father, and many of the fought in the war against the Gnolls and Demons that brought about the end of Nerath (notably, there's an inconsistancy in the article that says that this happened 3 centuries ago, rather than just over a single century ago). There are still abandoned creation forges throughout the ruins of Old Nerath, and even one controlled by Warforged creating more of their own. And the order of mage-scientists who were originally commissioned by King Ellidyr's father still exists out there.
I'm not saying you should use this in your setting if you feel it's out of place, but they have an accepted place in the Core Setting, just as every other race does.
Anyways yeah, after reading your post and looking into the issue a bit more I would probably allow a warforged PC into my game as a rare and dying breed. I will not allow for warforged communities and what not and said warforged PC would have to deal with being treated as a non person by most other sentients in much the same way most droids are treated in Star Wars.
Good post Mara, Can I call you Mara?
Anyways yeah, after reading your post and looking into the issue a bit more I would probably allow a warforged PC into my game as a rare and dying breed. I will not allow for warforged communities and what not and said warforged PC would have to deal with being treated as a non person by most other sentients in much the same way most droids are treated in Star Wars.
Hmm, sounds like an opportunity for a "Short Circuit" story arc ... ;)
Good post Mara, Can I call you Mara?
Anyways yeah, after reading your post and looking into the issue a bit more I would probably allow a warforged PC into my game as a rare and dying breed. I will not allow for warforged communities and what not and said warforged PC would have to deal with being treated as a non person by most other sentients in much the same way most droids are treated in Star Wars.
Mara's fine. I'd probably do something similar, for the Nentir Vale setting. For my own setting they're a bit more common because it's somewhere technology-wise between Nentir and Eberron, but perhaps more along the side of Nentir. But I don't think Warforged communities are extremely appropriate in either case – though I guess you could make them work.
It's your game. Sounds all good.