Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 MacEochaid Mar 06, 2011 0:22:01	So I started a discussion already solicitiation for theme ideas, and that's going well. However I want to have a new thread that discusses, just what exactly do we want out of themes in general. 4E seems to have been floundering with the "3rd" character concept. Characters are still two dimensional if they are just "race"+"class" however how to get that "third" character concept has been a little tricky so far. When 4E first came out the idea was simple, feats would provide a mechanic of character distinguishment, if you want to be a Swordmaster of the Eastern Deserts, pick up sword fighting feats, if you want to be a Pirate of the Stormsea, grab acrobatic feats that represent you climbing up and down riggings. Sounded great, but already there is a problem, the Swordmaster is almost guaranteed to be using that +1 to Attacks with Heavy Blade, the poor pirate turns out finds precious little to do with his running up and down ropes feats. When you got to Eleventh Level you got a paragon path. Overall they are pretty good, a quarter of your powers come from that class, they add features, and all the sudden your action point has gone from generic to flavorful. However they come really late in the game, and you wonder what your character has been doing since then to define themself. Forgotten Realms introduced Spell Plauge as a multiclass set of feats like Dragon introduced Gladiator and specialized weapon multiclass feats. However these multiclass feats just never really took off. Eberron made Dragon Mark Feats to represent the backgrounds of the different houses. Player's Handbook 2 gave a mechanic that everyone could have with the Backgrounds. However for the fluff it provided, it gave very little mechanical pay off. (and I'm sure I'm not the only one who just searches the character builder for the skill I want and then just click the first background that comes up) Dragon kept trying out new ideas to get that 3rd character concept, which gives us the funky "Heritage feats" and "Bloodline feats" probably the most ad hoc feeling of them all. They are feats that seem to make most story sense if taken at first level. Rarely do you see any of them in character op guides though, and they prevent you from taking those expertise and defense buffering feats that are universally helpful. Psionic Power Latched on to this to make the Elan and the Foulborn races. Dark Sun came out and people seemed pretty happy with the themes. However most all of them were very Dark Sun Specific, heavy on flavor for this specialized world. ----------------------------------------- So with all this indecision about "the third character concept" if themes are rolled out anew, beyond Dark Sun, what will make them work and stick. How should they interact with Backgrounds, Feats, and Specialized Multiclasses? How can Wizards finally pull all this together into a coherent 3rd character definer. No lists of themes, just what mechanics will make them great and stick around, or what will make them the heap of good intentions? Which of this concepts would it be good to roll into themes? Most of the Bloodline and Multiclass feats match a theme pretty dead on, encounter power with the strength of an at-will and some power substitution feats. Would it be best to just roll these into together and reduce character builder clutter? Do people want the option of being a Hybrided, Multiclassed, Bloodlined, Heritaged, Themed character?
#2 undrave Mar 06, 2011 0:42:17	Certain Backgrounds and all the Bloodlines should be rolled into themes. Themes, in addition to a power, could give you training in a skill/+2 to a skill/add a skill to your class sill list/an extra language. Bloodline like Damphyr and Dragon would be great as themes, letting you further delve into your heritage at your leasiure without having to be balanced with other feats. Maybe even give us a feat like the Skill Power feat that lets you pick up one of your theme's Utility power without giving up your class'.
#3 lokiare Mar 06, 2011 6:52:01	I think giving you more options to take powers other than your classes powers or maybe allowing you to take feats or race power swap outs. All of these would be optional. So you could: Trade out your racial feature for the theme feature. Trade out one at-will for a theme at-will. Trade out Encounter for a theme Encounter. Trade out Daily for a theme Daily. Trade out Utility for a theme Utility. Trade out a trained skill for a them trained skill
#4 Vael Mar 06, 2011 12:01:39	My main concern with themes is the combat emphasis of the current mechanics. It makes sense in Dark Sun, it works with the world. But applying Themes to other DnD worlds ... I'm not sure it's a great idea, if it's just for another suite of attack and utility powers.
#5 undrave Mar 06, 2011 14:10:52	My main concern with themes is the combat emphasis of the current mechanics. It makes sense in Dark Sun, it works with the world. But applying Themes to other DnD worlds ... I'm not sure it's a great idea, if it's just for another suite of attack and utility powers. Utility powers don't have to be combat mechanics. Furthermore the initial power could also be a utility instead of an attack power and the basic benefit could grant bonus to skills. Paragon Path could also add out of combat features. An Investigator theme for exemple could have a +2 perception bonus as a feature and an utility encounter power to reroll either Perception or Insight then all the utility would involve out of combat skill uses while the attack power could be used to prevent a suspect from fleeing, i.e. slowed, immobilisation, prone condition etc. Furthermore nothing say the theme HAS to offer attack power, it could simply be a suite of utility powers that forgoes the level 3/5/7/9 powers with an initial utility one and also grant a bonus to some skill.
#6 Omnirahk_half-Rahkshi Mar 06, 2011 21:31:43	Here's what I think: 0)  Themes should stick with the Dark Sun model.  Probably doesn't need to be said, but I'm gonna say it anyway.  Dark Sun themes are a specific subset of the general banner of themes, not something different that happens to share a name. 1)  Campaign-specific.  Sure, general themes are a must-have, but I really think each setting should get its own list of themes.  It really helps ground it better, I think. 2)  Extra power at first level can be attack or encounter.  I hadn't thought of that before Undave proposed the Investigator theme, but it really is a good idea.  Some themes may not be about what your character does in combat, and I think that should be taken into account.  I mean, sure, a theoretical Investigator theme will almost certainly have its own associated attack powers, but a first level character gets just one theme power, assigned by the theme.  That power pretty much defines the theme, so define it right. 3)  Additional support.  Paragon paths, feats, etc that build off the theme.
#7 The_Jester Mar 07, 2011 11:32:27	Most Essentials characters have very different array and progression of attack powers. So adding themes to them is trickier as half the content might not be useable.  However, all the classes have the same progression of utility powers. So I'd emphasise that, with all themes having the full compliment of utility powers with many offering non-combat uses or pure flavour. And add complimentary feats as well, but only one or two per theme. More combat heavy themes have attack powers when needed, but these might be secondary to the additional utility powers.
#8 The_Jester Mar 07, 2011 11:55:39	I'd also look at replacing the class multiclass feats with themes. It's a much smoother way than burning a feat just to gain a new power and no additional benefit.  And diversifying the theme's feature to include occasional Utility powers or out of combat "knacks" would also be very interesting, either instead of the Encounter power or in addition to a weaker At-will or more sutiational Encounter power.