5.0 is coming soon! No, I'm not going to go there. But seriously, one of the biggest tell-tale signs of an edition "shake-up" is the rules compendium. It happened in 2.0. It happened in Advanced. It happened in 3.5. And I wanna say it happened in 3.0 (not sure on that).
The idea of a rules compendium is to take all of the existing rules for a particular game, and put them in one place. It's kind of silly to publish if additional rules are going to be made, but whatever.
Is a ship sinking? Am I concerned about the future of D&D? No, not really. Paizo will still be around and someone somewhere will make fantasy gaming, regardless. I'll prefer 4E until I can't any longer (i.e., no products, no players to play it, etc.). I just wanted to start a discussion regarding this title and why it is being printed this year. A couple of issues/announcements have been made by WotC recently, including the discontinuation of PHH. Which is no big deal. Then there's the issue of Streets of Shadow DDM that has been cancelled (probably due to the visual miniature, and Shelly's latest article "hinted" that all future sets will be huge, or at least that's what I got out of it). Then no license renewal with Star Wars. I know we are in a recession, but man, that's a lot of cuts.
A while ago, a local FLGS owner and I were discussing tabletop gaming. He's a bit older and was really into miniature war games back in the day with Axis and Allies. According to him, hasbro (I think were the owners and still are) bought the brand, couldn't do anything with it; and instead of selling it to someone who thought the meager profits were worth the effort - they stuck it on the shelf so no one could access it, until they deemed it worth trying to profit from again (over a decade later). As I said before, the fantasy gaming genre is in good hands with many other companies printing stuff. I'm starting to wonder that the Open Gaming License was to allow other companies to have a good basis for their own game to keep fantasy gaming alive in case Hasbro pulled the plug on meager earnings.
Thoughts? Discuss.
Thoughts?
Short Version: Your a loony?
Long Version: Beware the slippery slope. You might just fall off of it.
Seriously. Its most likely just going to be an errata catalouge for people who don't want to print out an 80+ page document, or have to cross reference four or five PHBs for rules clarifications. It might just be WotC putting out a "definative answer" to the slippery questions that have plagued 4e rules design. As for the cuts you mention: Streets of Shadow was scrapped, but they already announced another set coming out in its place, the Lords of Madness, which just sounds far more interesting. PHH was kind of "meh" to begin with. Finally: what does Star Wars have to do with Hasbro killing DnD?
In all honesty, DnD is getting better and better. The theme mechanich which looks like we'll be getting from Dark Sun is an awesome new idea in my opinion. We're getting more specialized material. It honestly looks like another great year for DnD. There is little to -no- reason for you to think Hasbro is going to pull the plug. At all.
I find this thread silly. Good day, sir.
Thoughts? Discuss.
I think you're jumping at shadows. I think it's much, much more likely that the economy is hurting Wizards more than they thought it would when their initial marketing plans for 4e were coming out and so they're adapting to it. Look through the last half of 2010 in the Catalog and the consistent thing for the D&D line is "lower price point" and "boxed sets". Paperback books with a $20 price point. Boxed sets with a $20-$30 price point. They're trying to find lower-cost products that they can offer because the $35 hardcover format is proving untenable in the current economy. They're also offering up a low-cost alternative to miniatures with all the tokens in the various boxed sets, and I suspect that as the miniatures become more and more expensive to produce they'll eventually reach a point where it just becomes impossible for them to offer minis at a price point people are willing to pay for them and they may have to get out of the collectable minis arena altogether. (Though if the boardgames are successful they may continue to have a use for the molds at least).
The $20 "starter" box seems designed to be put on a big box retail shelf - if they produce a starter set like that and stick it on game store shelves they're idiots, and I don't think Wizards marketing staff is full of idiots. I think that's another indication - they're trying to get new players into the game, which wouldn't make any sense if they were considering abandoning it.
I'm actually somewhat excited about the move to paperbacks. The all hardcover book model that they moved to early in the 3e lifecycle always struck me as needlessly expensive. $20 is actually a really nice price point for me, and the more things that stay in that price point, the more things I'm likely to buy. I tend to pass on quite a few books right now until they show up used at Half Price Books because they just don't seem worth the money to me (Plus I think that 6x9 size for the books is actually more convenient than the large hardcover book, and it's easier to cart around paperbacks in a backpack than it is a bunch of hardcovers).
You do realize that DDI Compendium has been available for around 2 years now, right?
You do realize that DDI Compendium has been available for around 2 years now, right?
And some of us don't have a steady income necessary for a subscription, but could scrounge for a $20 or $30 book.
I'm actually somewhat excited about the move to paperbacks. The all hardcover book model that they moved to early in the 3e lifecycle always struck me as needlessly expensive. $20 is actually a really nice price point for me, and the more things that stay in that price point, the more things I'm likely to buy. I tend to pass on quite a few books right now until they show up used at Half Price Books because they just don't seem worth the money to me (Plus I think that 6x9 size for the books is actually more convenient than the large hardcover book, and it's easier to cart around paperbacks in a backpack than it is a bunch of hardcovers).
Yeah me too. Though they are only producing a few of them, around 10 products for the Essential lines (dungeon tiles and box set included I think) and go back to the core hardbacks again.
As for the Rules Compendium, think of it as a small pocket dictionary to refer to during sessions.
Seriously, i don't see 4e ending, i see it growing, if anything, it's growing too fast.
Why sell the rules once, when you can sell them twice?
Seriously, i don't see 4e ending, i see it growing, if anything, it's growing too fast.
I agree with the first part, but I can't agree with the second part. I'm a greedy bastard when it comes to 4e books. I wish they published 3-5 new books per month. As long as they keep coming up with new stuff, I'll find a way to use it.
Why sell the rules once, when you can sell them twice?
Seriously, i don't see 4e ending, i see it growing, if anything, it's growing too fast.
I agree with the first part, but I can't agree with the second part. I'm a greedy bastard when it comes to 4e books. I wish they published 3-5 new books per month. As long as they keep coming up with new stuff, I'll find a way to use it.
On the class side of things… I don't think I'll EVER be able to play all the class builds. There's too many, because WotC has put so much into D&D. So I can understand Mellored's point about it growing too fast. However, I believe that this sense of awe and wonder and then realising that I have to make a CHOICE between these all is justified in that many players want to play a single archetype, so the more powers we have for that archetype, and the more ways of building that archetype – essentially, the more options that exist, the more likely that player will be satisfied.
some of us don't have a steady income necessary for a subscription, but could scrounge for a $20 or $30 book.
This statement strikes me as thoughtlessly backwards. A three month subscription to DDi only costs $24. It seems to me that any one who can't scrounge that kind of cash together once every three months probably can't afford to play D&D in the first place (or really do much of anything else either).
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. If the upcoming Rules Compendium really was the herald of 5e than WotC wouldn't be releasing the Essentials series, target at attracting new players to 4e. If anything the it would seem WotC is planning for 4e to last at least another year or two, if not longer.
Anyway, I agree that 4E is still quite young. I just do not know how much pull or pressure WotC has from Hasbro, since that's who owns them. I guess we will see.
1) No new editions for a bit, if their still ringing $'s out of this one.
2) Freakin awesome. I the Idea of different games running off the same mechanics and being compatible. I like options, even ones I choose not to use.
I predict quite the opposite effect to what bholder_mage suggests. Rather than hastening the arrival of 5th edition, the recession will extend the life of 4th edition. The really expensive work (game design and initial marketing) has been done and now WoTC (ie. Hasbro) only has to fund a smaller team to feed the demand of core gamers to keep the system alive. Pumping out new power manuals and fluff books will not break Hasbro's bank and only requires minimal staff. If they can keep 4th ed. simmering along through the rough times, then they'll retain their core fan base to whip up 5th ed. frenzy once the good times come back.
I agree with Tharag_Bocc that the new essentials books will actually extend the life of 4th edition. Keep prices low, sell them at Wal-Mart, and hook a new generation of players. This is exactly what TSR did back in the early 80's during another nasty recession. It worked on me! I loved my RedBox and it holds a place of honor on my shelf. The Red Box got me into AD&D which lead to 2nd edition which lasted many more years. I predict the same model is being implemented now.
It's no accident that the new RedBox design is almost identical to the old one. During hard economic times, you stick with what works.
This statement strikes me as thoughtlessly backwards. A three month subscription to DDi only costs $24. It seems to me that any one who can't scrounge that kind of cash together once every three months probably can't afford to play D&D in the first place (or really do much of anything else either).
Sure, it's only $24 dollars for 3 months.
But do you know what you have left come month #4 when you can't renew for whatever reason? You have nothing.
You know what you have without access to a PC (or something else that can access on-line)? You have nothing.
You know what you've done after paying for a full years worth of DDI? You've paid nearly triple for this info. And it can still vanish the next month.
The person who spent $ once on the book? Barring it's loss or destruction, they'll have that info for the rest of their lives.
THAT is why the book is a better investment.
Plus if it really comes down to it, you can sell/trade the book. Might not get much for it, but I'm betting it's still more than you could get from your DDI account....
DDI. Certainly a nice extra, but ultimitly just $ down the drain.
And you're dead wrong about someone not being able to effectively play D&D on an extremely limited income. I've known plenty of people who've either done so or are doing so.
All you NEED is the PHB, MM, & DMG & the dice. And it's not even necceccary for one person to own them all. Or buy them new at MSRP. Those 3 books, regardless of edition, can provide years worth of fun by themselves. Everything else - all the extra books, minis, tiles, on-line tools, etc? Nice. But not required.
But you're right that all you "need" is the PHB, DMG, and dice (MM NOT required)*. Everything after that can just be made up.
*I would suggest the MM2 over the MM1 if you do pick one up.
The product choices for the remainder of the year are mostly low cost choices in terms of new creative input. A lot of this is recycling and as the OP said, this has happened before, specifically toward the end of an edition of the game and when sales are dropping. Personally, I am not worried that this signifies the launch of 5th Edition as I would expect WotC to have a plan for 4E that lasts for 7-8 years at least. What worries me the most is that the recession, along with open licenses and internet content has had a big effect on profit margins. This is undoubtedly a popular hobby but in the grand worldwide scheme of things it has a small customer base. If spend per customer or the number of customers is dropping then the brand could be rapidly becoming unprofitable.
I sincerely hope this is not the case but as someone who has been a gamer since the early 80s and remembers when TSR went belly up, I do see a similar pattern here. Hope I am wrong because I am thoroughly pleased with 4E and will buy every product but I am distinctly getting a feeling a deja vu here.
WOTC did say they didn't have enough manpower to come up with more Core stuff and the quarter end of the year is purposely devoted to getting the Essential line out. I would assume 2011 will resume the usual power books, PHBs etc.. We haven't got our Feywild/Shadowfell books as well.
Also, I am sure that quite a bit of design effort went into Gamma World. The fact that this product is coming out and may be just the first of many 4E based genre settings tells me that we are not in the twilight of 4E. I see no shortage of potential products for early 2011, and so far the only feature of 4E begging for a redesign in a new edition is the scaling of PC attacks and defenses. I think we have at least until after the December 2010 layoffs before we need to consider worrying about the future of 4E and its 5E replacement again.
some of us don't have a steady income necessary for a subscription, but could scrounge for a $20 or $30 book.
This statement strikes me as thoughtlessly backwards. A three month subscription to DDi only costs $24. It seems to me that any one who can't scrounge that kind of cash together once every three months probably can't afford to play D&D in the first place (or really do much of anything else either).
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. If the upcoming Rules Compendium really was the herald of 5e than WotC wouldn't be releasing the Essentials series, target at attracting new players to 4e. If anything the it would seem WotC is planning for 4e to last at least another year or two, if not longer.
That's 24 dollars plus the 300 or more for a netbook or some kind of nonpublic computer that you can take full advantage of the features offered with.
some of us don't have a steady income necessary for a subscription, but could scrounge for a $20 or $30 book.
This statement strikes me as thoughtlessly backwards. A three month subscription to DDi only costs $24. It seems to me that any one who can't scrounge that kind of cash together once every three months probably can't afford to play D&D in the first place (or really do much of anything else either).
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. If the upcoming Rules Compendium really was the herald of 5e than WotC wouldn't be releasing the Essentials series, target at attracting new players to 4e. If anything the it would seem WotC is planning for 4e to last at least another year or two, if not longer.
That's 24 dollars plus the 300 or more for a netbook or some kind of nonpublic computer that you can take full advantage of the features offered with.
Um where posting on a forum on the Internet. I know it's possible to do without owning o so rare and mystical computer, mostly sounds like arguing for arguments sake. Now a days people I know who are nearly at p[poverty levels still have computers. What a great country we live in.
Also, I am sure that quite a bit of design effort went into Gamma World. The fact that this product is coming out and may be just the first of many 4E based genre settings tells me that we are not in the twilight of 4E. I see no shortage of potential products for early 2011, and so far the only feature of 4E begging for a redesign in a new edition is the scaling of PC attacks and defenses. I think we have at least until after the December 2010 layoffs before we need to consider worrying about the future of 4E and its 5E replacement again.
It's also a good break from supplement fatigue.
Don't wish to join any conspiracy theories but I came to this thread straight after listening to the 2010 product schedule podcast because what i heard bothered me - seriously.
The product choices for the remainder of the year are mostly low cost choices in terms of new creative input. A lot of this is recycling and as the OP said, this has happened before, specifically toward the end of an edition of the game and when sales are dropping. Personally, I am not worried that this signifies the launch of 5th Edition as I would expect WotC to have a plan for 4E that lasts for 7-8 years at least. What worries me the most is that the recession, along with open licenses and internet content has had a big effect on profit margins. This is undoubtedly a popular hobby but in the grand worldwide scheme of things it has a small customer base. If spend per customer or the number of customers is dropping then the brand could be rapidly becoming unprofitable.
I sincerely hope this is not the case but as someone who has been a gamer since the early 80s and remembers when TSR went belly up, I do see a similar pattern here. Hope I am wrong because I am thoroughly pleased with 4E and will buy every product but I am distinctly getting a feeling a deja vu here.
Got a link to the podcast? I'd like to give it a listen.
What does a smart person do with this 2.5 GB of Dungeon/Dragon Magazines? Save a copy on either a mobile HDD (if you have the money) or burn it on one or two safety DVD's or even CD's (which singularly cost less than a single dollar/euro today).
All of my D&D files (along with my other documents) are saved on my file server, which has a RAID-5 array for redundancy. I also have offline files synchronization enabled on my laptop, so whenever it's plugged into the network it synchronizes with the file server, and my laptop always has the latest copy of those files as well. And finally, I have a weekly tape backup routine, which does include the D&D stuff.
So... yeah. Pretty sure I'm gonna have it for the rest of my life, or until I decide I don't want to keep it anymore.
So yeah, the argument about having the data is pretty nonsensical. Sure you need a computer, but in there are always requirements, even for a book - being able to read in that case.
Wow, what a totally assinine comparison. The ability to read is a requirement of both formats, so that's a non-sequiter. My ability to enjoy a physical book is contingent on doing something that 99% of most educated people in the world can do and the ability to initially purchase the book.
My ability to enjoy a PDF involves a much higher upfront cost, and the reliance on many outside factors that are sometimes not under my direct control. There is needing to buy a much more expensive netbook/laptop or a desktop, reliance on an electrical outlet to either power the desktop/laptop or to charge the laptop's battery, the ability to purchase the PDF via a credit card (perhaps you don't have one or are too young to have one or parents that are unwilling to use their card online), the desire to purchase something online to being with, and the cost of backing up and archiving your initial investments from data loss, corruption, hardware failure, etc.
The only place PDF trumps a physical book is convenience of being able to carry a massive amount of data on one device versus numerous physical books. Other than that, I see no advantages. There are also those than enjoy holding something physical and tangible for their money. That's why digital e-readers make me laugh. Why anyone would waste $200 plus on a device that relies on electricity and a battery + cost of the electronic book vs. $8-$10 for the same book in paperback is beyond me.
When I sit down to read a book, like LotR for example, I'd rather have a book. It negates all sorts of annyoing laptop requirements, such as power, eye aches, uncomfortably warm laps, etc. I don't think I'd enjoy a Kindle either. I want an effing book.
But when I want a refference manual I'd much rather have a PDF or indexed series of html files. Ctrl+F and Copy/Paste for the win.
So yeah, the argument about having the data is pretty nonsensical. Sure you need a computer, but in there are always requirements, even for a book - being able to read in that case.
Wow, what a totally assinine comparison. The ability to read is a requirement of both formats, so that's a non-sequiter. My ability to enjoy a physical book is contingent on doing something that 99% of most educated people in the world can do and the ability to initially purchase the book.
The latest version of Adobe has a built in option to read out loud the text for you, so apparently personal literacy is not a 100% requirement to make use of PDF media.
Anyway, I'm not trying to start/perpetuate a flame war either, but one more point.
My ability to enjoy a PDF involves a much higher upfront cost, and the reliance on many outside factors that are sometimes not under my direct control. There is needing to buy a much more expensive netbook/laptop or a desktop,
The upfront cost is also deferred by the fact that a laptop is usefully for much more than just reading PDFs. Word processing, video gaming, reading these message boards, are all other activities that laptop is good for.
Even if you only ever use it for PDF the larger up front cost can still be deferred by the long term cost possibly being much cheaper. A half decent laptop can run as low as $300 and a year of DDi is $72 (total $372). Getting every printed D&D book for a whole year averages about $30 a month (total $360). However come year two, the guy using electronic formats only needs to spend another $72, while the guy with the dead trees has to spend another $360.
Even if you only ever use it for PDF the larger up front cost can still be deferred by the long term cost possibly being much cheaper. A half decent laptop can run as low as $300 and a year of DDi is $72 (total $372). Getting every printed D&D book for a whole year averages about $30 a month (total $360). However come year two, the guy using electronic formats only needs to spend another $72, while the guy with the dead trees has to spend another $360.
Unless they decide not to continue to investing it the game, or 5e comes out, or some such. At which point, the guy using electronic formats has to spend another $72 or have nothing, while the paper guy can spend nothing and still have everything he bought.
Unless they decide not to continue to investing it the game, or 5e comes out, or some such. At which point, the guy using electronic formats has to spend another $72 or have nothing, while the paper guy can spend nothing and still have everything he bought.
Most computers have a hard drive for a reason. It only takes a little effort for the person using an electronic format to preserve their investment. Comparatively the paper guy has to deal with wear and tear (several of my friends have 3.5 PHBs that are barely still holding together).