Secondary Skills & Nonweapon proficiencies - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Secondary Skills & Nonweapon proficiencies

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
johnhansen
Jul 15, 2009 18:20:24 If you have been playing D&D for a long time you probably remember these are terminologies from 2e. In 3/3.5e they did away with Secondary Skills& Nonweapon proficiencies and gave us Skills, now I found that in 3/3.5e I wanted characters to have knowledge that came from their lives before they turned 15 (for a human) so as DM I recreated the secondary skill roll. Now characters had skill points in a profession and they did not have to spend their class skill points on it. All this was before I read all the threads that were laminating how spending skill points on background made your character suck in battle so it was not that that prompted it. Now we have 4e and they have removed the chance of making your character suck in battle by spending skill points on background. But many have laminated that the skill list is to basic. Do you think they could make a book that replaces and expands the skill list, Perhaps these books could be part of the worlds (like FR, EB, DL) so as to more fully fluff out the worlds or is it to late to expand the skill part of the game.
#2
Shiftkitty
Jul 15, 2009 18:40:03 What we did was to figure which of the six attributes applied most to any particular skill and applied that. If mulitple attributes could apply, we averaged them. For example, most craft skills had DEX as at least part of the equation, and things like smithing of almost any sort were pretty much going to be STR and DEX based. This was, of course, for detemrining background skills. I could trust my players to be fair about what their characters would know.
#3
Alex_
Jul 15, 2009 18:50:59 The skill list is shorter, but by no means basic. A single skill can cover a range of things that would have required 3+ skills or even some class features in previous editions.

In addition to skill checks, there are your Ability score checks. Remember that both can be modified according to different factors.

Players can also choose backgrounds, which give knowledge and expertise in a particular area, allowing them treat some skills as trained, gain extra languages, gain languages in certain situations, or create items.

The free download-able Characters of War article in Dragon has a couple dozen backgrounds. The PHB 2 has more backgrounds. It's also the new standard in Published Settings. Forgotten Realms brought back its regional Benefits, and now Eberron has associated skills and applications for each region and several more for any number of backgrounds.

It's all there.
#4
wrecan
Jul 15, 2009 18:53:21
Do you think they could make a book that replaces and expands the skill list

Could they? Yes. Will they? I highly doubt it. I think that would contradict the current game design philosophy. I don't foresee them putting out a book of variant rules as they did with Unearthed Arcana in Third Edition.

The Background mechanic seems like it should work well enough for what you seek.
#5
johnhansen
Jul 15, 2009 19:36:34
What we did was to figure which of the six attributes applied most to any particular skill and applied that. If mulitple attributes could apply, we averaged them. For example, most craft skills had DEX as at least part of the equation, and things like smithing of almost any sort were pretty much going to be STR and DEX based. This was, of course, for detemrining background skills. I could trust my players to be fair about what their characters would know.

Sounds like a good and simple way to re-add some of the missing skills.

By the way I saw your solitary link (something I did during winter storms back in 2e) . I would be interested in your opinion if you have one on how gaming one PC at a time differs for you in 4e from say 2e or 3.5e
#6
CCS
Jul 15, 2009 23:00:19
Could they? Yes. Will they? I highly doubt it. I think that would contradict the current game design philosophy. I don't foresee them putting out a book of variant rules as they did with Unearthed Arcana in Third Edition.

I can see it happening.
Not right away, but some years down the line (maybe about 3/4+ through 4e's life cycle - assuming 4e runs about 8 years).
Hey, why not? They'll still need to sell everyone another book. Might as well be one full of optional/varient rules.
#7
salla
Jul 16, 2009 3:44:26 This sort of stuff is background material. You were a blacksmith? Just write it down. Want to smith something? Spend the gold and say you created it.
#8
Alex_
Jul 16, 2009 10:51:59
Sounds like a good and simple way to re-add some of the missing skills.

By the way I saw your solitary link (something I did during winter storms back in 2e) . I would be interested in your opinion if you have one on how gaming one PC at a time differs for you in 4e from say 2e or 3.5e

Although when UA came out, they didn't add new skills or proficiencies either.

In fact, the alternate skill rules included things such as set numbers of "trained" skills, which were automatically maxed out, and "complex skills" which were essentially the earliest form of skill challenges. Ironically, it made the game more into something like 4E.
#9
Stuntman
Jul 16, 2009 11:00:10
I wanted characters to have knowledge that came from their lives before they turned 15 (for a human) so as DM I recreated the secondary skill roll. Now characters had skill points in a profession and they did not have to spend their class skill points on it.

In the PH2, there is an option call character backgrounds. The background you choose for your character gives you some minor skill-based benefits.

But many have laminated that the skill list is to basic. Do you think they could make a book that replaces and expands the skill list, Perhaps these books could be part of the worlds (like FR, EB, DL) so as to more fully fluff out the worlds or is it to late to expand the skill part of the game.

I'm not sure you really need explicit rules on character background skills. Depending on how detailed you want background skills to be, it could be anything from being general like cooking to something specific like baker. A supplement would be hard pressed to cover everything possible that players may think of and to the correct level of detail. You could be a general tailor or something specifc like making bridal dresses.

The other issue is how you would handle these secondary skills. Are you a master chef who cooks for nobility or just a cook on a ship? How would you improve it? Slaying a bunch of dragons to reach level 10 will give you +5 to your rolls compared to level 1, but does that really mean you cook that much better?

I think there's value in leaving these things that affect the story up to the creativity of the players and DM. They will be able to use the correct level of detail for their campaign. The level of detail and the depth of these backgrounds vary from campaign to campaign. Having explicit rules to handle these situations may simply make more people upset with the rigidity of the system than be helpful.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 johnhansen Jul 15, 2009 18:20:24	If you have been playing D&D for a long time you probably remember these are terminologies from 2e. In 3/3.5e they did away with Secondary Skills& Nonweapon proficiencies and gave us Skills, now I found that in 3/3.5e I wanted characters to have knowledge that came from their lives before they turned 15 (for a human) so as DM I recreated the secondary skill roll. Now characters had skill points in a profession and they did not have to spend their class skill points on it. All this was before I read all the threads that were laminating how spending skill points on background made your character suck in battle so it was not that that prompted it. Now we have 4e and they have removed the chance of making your character suck in battle by spending skill points on background. But many have laminated that the skill list is to basic. Do you think they could make a book that replaces and expands the skill list, Perhaps these books could be part of the worlds (like FR, EB, DL) so as to more fully fluff out the worlds or is it to late to expand the skill part of the game.
#2 Shiftkitty Jul 15, 2009 18:40:03	What we did was to figure which of the six attributes applied most to any particular skill and applied that. If mulitple attributes could apply, we averaged them. For example, most craft skills had DEX as at least part of the equation, and things like smithing of almost any sort were pretty much going to be STR and DEX based. This was, of course, for detemrining background skills. I could trust my players to be fair about what their characters would know.
#3 Alex_ Jul 15, 2009 18:50:59	The skill list is shorter, but by no means basic. A single skill can cover a range of things that would have required 3+ skills or even some class features in previous editions. In addition to skill checks, there are your Ability score checks. Remember that both can be modified according to different factors. Players can also choose backgrounds, which give knowledge and expertise in a particular area, allowing them treat some skills as trained, gain extra languages, gain languages in certain situations, or create items. The free download-able Characters of War article in Dragon has a couple dozen backgrounds. The PHB 2 has more backgrounds. It's also the new standard in Published Settings. Forgotten Realms brought back its regional Benefits, and now Eberron has associated skills and applications for each region and several more for any number of backgrounds. It's all there.
#4 wrecan Jul 15, 2009 18:53:21	Do you think they could make a book that replaces and expands the skill list Could they? Yes. Will they? I highly doubt it. I think that would contradict the current game design philosophy. I don't foresee them putting out a book of variant rules as they did with Unearthed Arcana in Third Edition. The Background mechanic seems like it should work well enough for what you seek.
#5 johnhansen Jul 15, 2009 19:36:34	What we did was to figure which of the six attributes applied most to any particular skill and applied that. If mulitple attributes could apply, we averaged them. For example, most craft skills had DEX as at least part of the equation, and things like smithing of almost any sort were pretty much going to be STR and DEX based. This was, of course, for detemrining background skills. I could trust my players to be fair about what their characters would know. Sounds like a good and simple way to re-add some of the missing skills. By the way I saw your solitary link (something I did during winter storms back in 2e) . I would be interested in your opinion if you have one on how gaming one PC at a time differs for you in 4e from say 2e or 3.5e
#6 CCS Jul 15, 2009 23:00:19	Could they? Yes. Will they? I highly doubt it. I think that would contradict the current game design philosophy. I don't foresee them putting out a book of variant rules as they did with Unearthed Arcana in Third Edition. I can see it happening. Not right away, but some years down the line (maybe about 3/4+ through 4e's life cycle - assuming 4e runs about 8 years). Hey, why not? They'll still need to sell everyone another book. Might as well be one full of optional/varient rules.
#7 salla Jul 16, 2009 3:44:26	This sort of stuff is background material. You were a blacksmith? Just write it down. Want to smith something? Spend the gold and say you created it.
#8 Alex_ Jul 16, 2009 10:51:59	Sounds like a good and simple way to re-add some of the missing skills. By the way I saw your solitary link (something I did during winter storms back in 2e) . I would be interested in your opinion if you have one on how gaming one PC at a time differs for you in 4e from say 2e or 3.5e Although when UA came out, they didn't add new skills or proficiencies either. In fact, the alternate skill rules included things such as set numbers of "trained" skills, which were automatically maxed out, and "complex skills" which were essentially the earliest form of skill challenges. Ironically, it made the game more into something like 4E.
#9 Stuntman Jul 16, 2009 11:00:10	I wanted characters to have knowledge that came from their lives before they turned 15 (for a human) so as DM I recreated the secondary skill roll. Now characters had skill points in a profession and they did not have to spend their class skill points on it. In the PH2, there is an option call character backgrounds. The background you choose for your character gives you some minor skill-based benefits. But many have laminated that the skill list is to basic. Do you think they could make a book that replaces and expands the skill list, Perhaps these books could be part of the worlds (like FR, EB, DL) so as to more fully fluff out the worlds or is it to late to expand the skill part of the game. I'm not sure you really need explicit rules on character background skills. Depending on how detailed you want background skills to be, it could be anything from being general like cooking to something specific like baker. A supplement would be hard pressed to cover everything possible that players may think of and to the correct level of detail. You could be a general tailor or something specifc like making bridal dresses. The other issue is how you would handle these secondary skills. Are you a master chef who cooks for nobility or just a cook on a ship? How would you improve it? Slaying a bunch of dragons to reach level 10 will give you +5 to your rolls compared to level 1, but does that really mean you cook that much better? I think there's value in leaving these things that affect the story up to the creativity of the players and DM. They will be able to use the correct level of detail for their campaign. The level of detail and the depth of these backgrounds vary from campaign to campaign. Having explicit rules to handle these situations may simply make more people upset with the rigidity of the system than be helpful.