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Shadow Magic, Truenaming and Binders

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
shadow_sheild
Sep 25, 2008 14:48:01 Any news on how they plan to use shadow magic, truenaming and binding? I remember all the amazing things that could be done with Shadowsmiths in 3.5, but my favorite of all time being a ninja with Shadowblade lvls. I'd love to relive that in 4.0
#2
eldritch_lord
Sep 25, 2008 15:02:54 Truenaming is very unlikely, given the changed skill system in 4e; binding was somewhat incorporated into the warlock, enough so that a separate binder is unlikely; and shadow magic will be eclipsed (ha ha) by the Shadow source, which most likely will not share any mechanics with the shadowcaster and will bypass it for classes like shadowdancer, hexblade, etc.

So flavor-wise, things might come back; mechanics wise, most likely not.
#3
serphet
Sep 25, 2008 16:09:19 http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080815a
#4
trobon
Sep 25, 2008 17:10:56
Truenaming is very unlikely, given the changed skill system in 4e;

While it won't come back as a skill check class that is far from saying that it won't come back. A truenaming power source could be done very easily. Although I think that's what you meant by it might return flavorwise, but not mechanically.
#5
ranadiel
Sep 25, 2008 17:25:44
While it won't come back as a skill check class that is far from saying that it won't come back. A truenaming power source could be done very easily. Although I think that's what you meant by it might return flavorwise, but not mechanically.

Eh, truenaming really seems like a one trick pony to me. I mean I can see a leader or controller class based off of it with little trouble, but I really can't see expanding it into a full fledged power source. So I say make the truenamer an arcane class.
#6
serphet
Sep 25, 2008 17:31:32 Truenamer's abilities where so broad that the real features of them were fluff based. The idea of robed figures with heads bowed, muttering. The stealth involved with it was also cool, you could stand behind a tinted window and torture passer by's. The closest thing that fits IMO is the cleric's abilities, then switch it to an arcane power source. Then have them use implements in the form of necklaces or something (basically imitate holy symbols without the whole.. holiness)
#7
Luis_Carlos
Sep 25, 2008 17:33:51 Truename will return in Player handbook V or VI. I imagine it like the magic of Harry Potter´s novels. They need a good background.

Binders are too cool freaks. The power of bond with vestiges is too good for only be the pact of warlock. The problem is the signs. They are a lot of work to be adapted to videogame....or D&D Insider. I wonder if it´s possible a dark version of bond in the demiplane of dread (ravenloft). Yes, I refer bonds with the dark powers.
#8
eldritch_lord
Sep 25, 2008 17:46:37 The appeal of truenaming was really the fluff combined with the ability to cast as long as you could make the skill check. The 4e skill changes, combined with the fact that everyone now has at-will powers, takes away a lot of that appeal. You could reflavor a wizard and get the same effect.
#9
inkblot
Sep 25, 2008 18:16:49 The toughest thing about adapting the Binder is porting over the class's abilities to change it's powers at least once a day. Simply reflavoring a Warlock doesn't work, since Warlocks can't do that. Reflavoring a Wizard works better, since Wizards can change their powers every day. A whole new pact for the Warlock could do it too, but you'd have to squeeze all the vestiges into one pact.

I think the Binder should be it's own class. There are so many vestige powers to be ported over. With over 30 vestiges, and more than 3 powers per vestige, we're looking at well over 90 powers for this class. Possibly over 100 powers. Most classes have about 80 powers. It also needs it's own daily-power-swapping mechanic like the Wizard has.
#10
serphet
Sep 25, 2008 18:25:01 the ability to change class roles though is a bit rough in 4e... it seems as if its the "always stepping on someone's toes" class. Perhaps we could find a single role for it, and have it shift around inside that role (changing power sources based on vestiges sounds cool) so it'll be similar to how warlock powers have the pact entry on some powers.
#11
Cryonax
Sep 25, 2008 18:27:16 I loved the Truenamer class, but it had an odd power curve, which turned off most players. For fluff, it was an elite class among the others. As far as 4e goes, the most sensible way to have brought it in was to have a vocal/voice/whatever power source for both bards and truenamers. The bard would be a leader with a minor in striker (I guess), and the truenamer would be a leader with a minor in controller (or the other way around; we don't have many controllers yet).

Of course, bards are arcane, and I doubt they'd create a power source for a single class that could easily be placed in arcane instead. Just a thought.
#12
serphet
Sep 25, 2008 18:31:10 fluff wise it wasn't the voice that did it. the true namer was really a planar power base, true naming goes all the way back to planescape.
#13
inkblot
Sep 25, 2008 19:47:02
the ability to change class roles though is a bit rough in 4e... it seems as if its the "always stepping on someone's toes" class. Perhaps we could find a single role for it, and have it shift around inside that role (changing power sources based on vestiges sounds cool) so it'll be similar to how warlock powers have the pact entry on some powers.

Changing roles and power source every day? That's totally out of left field. Sure the 3.5 Binder could change role at the drop of a hat, but so could the Cleric - and now the Cleric is solidly within the Leader role.

Class features alone go a long way towards defining a role. Warlords would be decent defenders if they had Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority, better proficiencies, more hit points, and more surges. So the Binder could be a Striker if it has bonus damage, or a Leader if it has a minor action healing class features, or a Defender if it has a mark and extra HP/Surges.

Powers do contribute to role, but there are many ways to fulfill a role, and all the powers need to be retranslated anyway. Just dropping a handful of powers from the vestiges, or interpretting them to fit the chosen role, would be easy enough. Vestiges which go outside the role might be nerfed a little. For instance, if the Binder class is designed to be a defender then Buer's healing would need to be toned down to be on par with the 4e Paladin's healing.

I don't believe the Binder should be able to change it's role. I don't believe it needs to be able to.

Also, arcane is the right power source for the Binder. The Warlock proves that pact magic using classes are arcane. The Paladin proves that if another power source grants you a seemingly-martial ability, that it doesn't give you the martial power source. There is simply no reason at all why different pacts should give you different power sources. Every pact is made through arcane means, regardless of the story behind the vestige.
#14
serphet
Sep 25, 2008 20:01:02
Changing roles and power source every day? That's totally out of left field. Sure the 3.5 Binder could change role at the drop of a hat, but so could the Cleric - and now the Cleric is solidly within the Leader role.

I think you mis interpreted my post... just a little bit.

I stated just that.. changing roles isn't a good idea, at the most change power sources. Then I went in to say that to get the variation felt in the 3.5 binder, have a changeable pact (similar to the genasi's manifestations).

Now that I'm looking at it, the genasi is a good formula to follow. Have a binder start off with two pacts, and have feats to gain more. then outline various power's that have a secondary attack entry on them for after affects that difer alot based on your current pact. A pact could tend towards stat effects, a pact could tend towards more dmg, and so on. Have the pact switchable during short rests.
#15
Steely_Dan
Sep 26, 2008 4:21:43 Binder: Hopefully a vestige pact will appear down the line for warlocks.

Shadowcaster: Will be folded into the Shadow Power source, and I'm speculating:

-Assassin/Ninja/Shadowdancer = Striker

-Hexblade/Blackguard = Defender

-Illusionist = Controller

-Necromancer = Leader

Truenamer: I would think an Arcane Paragon Path would take care of this nicely.
#16
Luis_Carlos
Sep 26, 2008 5:03:11 I imagine binder as a soft version of Chaos mutants from Warhammer Fantasy. The new binder could have encounter and daily vestige power..(but when you change vestige don´t regain the daily or encounter powers you have used that day). Each vestige would as a different class.

I don´t like illusionists and necromancers with the same power soucer. They are totally diferents.

The shadow striker class will be the dark assasin, I think. Nija will be ki striker class.
#17
Steely_Dan
Sep 26, 2008 5:33:37
-I don´t like illusionists and necromancers with the same power soucer. They are totally diferents.

-Ninja will be ki striker class.

-They have stated that Shadow is the source of much Illusion and Necromantic power.

-The Monk is all but confirmed as the Ki Striker.
#18
Luis_Carlos
Sep 26, 2008 7:18:44 - I don´t agree with creators. Illusion is light and colour. Necromancy is darkness. They are so diferente like day and night.

- It isn´t impossible two ki striker class. Wizards and warlock are two arcane controller, and martial strikers class the ranger and rogue.
#19
ranadiel
Sep 26, 2008 7:40:22
- I don´t agree with creators. Illusion is light and colour. Necromancy is darkness. They are so diferente like day and night.

- It isn´t impossible two ki striker class. Wizards and warlock are two arcane controller, and martial strikers class the ranger and rogue.

.....Warlocks aren't controllers. And really going onto the whole ki=asian classes argument has nothing to do with the thread's topic so lets just stop it now.
#20
Steely_Dan
Sep 26, 2008 8:20:18
- I don´t agree with creators. Illusion is light and colour.

..And shadow, shadow evocation etc has been with Illusionists/Illusion magic since 1st Ed.
#21
Malckuss
Sep 26, 2008 8:28:46 I could see the Binder as a Paragon Path that allowed you to change your Pact after an extended rest.

In a similar vein, the Truenamer could be a Paragon Path for the Wizard, in a vein of the Blood Mage, or the Spellstorm Mage; a Paragon Path that allows a wizard to devastate enemies and protect allies by the use of Truenames.

As for the Shadowcaster, as others have said, we know we are getting the Shadow Power Source.
#22
eldritch_lord
Sep 27, 2008 14:16:17 I and some others on EnWorld were working on a 4e binder port a while back. It involved rituals to bind particular vestiges and then a multiclass-only Binder class. Basically, once you performed the ritual once, you'd "know" a vestige and add it to your repertoire; you'd get an encounter, a utility, and a daily power from the bound vestige, which you'd swap out when you bound it as if you'd used power swap feats. Think of it like a really versatile Wizards' Spellbook: each day, your level X encounter power can be from the vestige instead of your own, and so on.

I'm not sure if they've made much progress with it, since I lost the thread with the big server change, but I think that's an interesting way to go about it.
#23
Malckuss
Sep 27, 2008 16:09:30 Sounds like the original source material
#24
ranadiel
Sep 27, 2008 16:59:30
I and some others on EnWorld were working on a 4e binder port a while back. It involved rituals to bind particular vestiges and then a multiclass-only Binder class. Basically, once you performed the ritual once, you'd "know" a vestige and add it to your repertoire; you'd get an encounter, a utility, and a daily power from the bound vestige, which you'd swap out when you bound it as if you'd used power swap feats. Think of it like a really versatile Wizards' Spellbook: each day, your level X encounter power can be from the vestige instead of your own, and so on.

I'm not sure if they've made much progress with it, since I lost the thread with the big server change, but I think that's an interesting way to go about it.

I like it. Very true to the 3.5 binder(which was made of win) and still can stay within the bounds of the roles. In fact it couuld actually end up working as a multiclass choice for any of the roles depending on how it was designed.
#25
SuichimoTheDragoon
Sep 27, 2008 17:19:36 I could easily see the Shadowcaster being a Shadow Controller. Most of their best Mysteries were battlefield control, along with their mysteries generally having an element of battlefield control.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shadow_sheild Sep 25, 2008 14:48:01	Any news on how they plan to use shadow magic, truenaming and binding? I remember all the amazing things that could be done with Shadowsmiths in 3.5, but my favorite of all time being a ninja with Shadowblade lvls. I'd love to relive that in 4.0
#2 eldritch_lord Sep 25, 2008 15:02:54	Truenaming is very unlikely, given the changed skill system in 4e; binding was somewhat incorporated into the warlock, enough so that a separate binder is unlikely; and shadow magic will be eclipsed (ha ha) by the Shadow source, which most likely will not share any mechanics with the shadowcaster and will bypass it for classes like shadowdancer, hexblade, etc. So flavor-wise, things might come back; mechanics wise, most likely not.
#3 serphet Sep 25, 2008 16:09:19	http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080815a
#4 trobon Sep 25, 2008 17:10:56	Truenaming is very unlikely, given the changed skill system in 4e; While it won't come back as a skill check class that is far from saying that it won't come back. A truenaming power source could be done very easily. Although I think that's what you meant by it might return flavorwise, but not mechanically.
#5 ranadiel Sep 25, 2008 17:25:44	While it won't come back as a skill check class that is far from saying that it won't come back. A truenaming power source could be done very easily. Although I think that's what you meant by it might return flavorwise, but not mechanically. Eh, truenaming really seems like a one trick pony to me. I mean I can see a leader or controller class based off of it with little trouble, but I really can't see expanding it into a full fledged power source. So I say make the truenamer an arcane class.
#6 serphet Sep 25, 2008 17:31:32	Truenamer's abilities where so broad that the real features of them were fluff based. The idea of robed figures with heads bowed, muttering. The stealth involved with it was also cool, you could stand behind a tinted window and torture passer by's. The closest thing that fits IMO is the cleric's abilities, then switch it to an arcane power source. Then have them use implements in the form of necklaces or something (basically imitate holy symbols without the whole.. holiness)
#7 Luis_Carlos Sep 25, 2008 17:33:51	Truename will return in Player handbook V or VI. I imagine it like the magic of Harry Potter´s novels. They need a good background. Binders are too cool freaks. The power of bond with vestiges is too good for only be the pact of warlock. The problem is the signs. They are a lot of work to be adapted to videogame....or D&D Insider. I wonder if it´s possible a dark version of bond in the demiplane of dread (ravenloft). Yes, I refer bonds with the dark powers.
#8 eldritch_lord Sep 25, 2008 17:46:37	The appeal of truenaming was really the fluff combined with the ability to cast as long as you could make the skill check. The 4e skill changes, combined with the fact that everyone now has at-will powers, takes away a lot of that appeal. You could reflavor a wizard and get the same effect.
#9 inkblot Sep 25, 2008 18:16:49	The toughest thing about adapting the Binder is porting over the class's abilities to change it's powers at least once a day. Simply reflavoring a Warlock doesn't work, since Warlocks can't do that. Reflavoring a Wizard works better, since Wizards can change their powers every day. A whole new pact for the Warlock could do it too, but you'd have to squeeze all the vestiges into one pact. I think the Binder should be it's own class. There are so many vestige powers to be ported over. With over 30 vestiges, and more than 3 powers per vestige, we're looking at well over 90 powers for this class. Possibly over 100 powers. Most classes have about 80 powers. It also needs it's own daily-power-swapping mechanic like the Wizard has.
#10 serphet Sep 25, 2008 18:25:01	the ability to change class roles though is a bit rough in 4e... it seems as if its the "always stepping on someone's toes" class. Perhaps we could find a single role for it, and have it shift around inside that role (changing power sources based on vestiges sounds cool) so it'll be similar to how warlock powers have the pact entry on some powers.
#11 Cryonax Sep 25, 2008 18:27:16	I loved the Truenamer class, but it had an odd power curve, which turned off most players. For fluff, it was an elite class among the others. As far as 4e goes, the most sensible way to have brought it in was to have a vocal/voice/whatever power source for both bards and truenamers. The bard would be a leader with a minor in striker (I guess), and the truenamer would be a leader with a minor in controller (or the other way around; we don't have many controllers yet). Of course, bards are arcane, and I doubt they'd create a power source for a single class that could easily be placed in arcane instead. Just a thought.
#12 serphet Sep 25, 2008 18:31:10	fluff wise it wasn't the voice that did it. the true namer was really a planar power base, true naming goes all the way back to planescape.
#13 inkblot Sep 25, 2008 19:47:02	the ability to change class roles though is a bit rough in 4e... it seems as if its the "always stepping on someone's toes" class. Perhaps we could find a single role for it, and have it shift around inside that role (changing power sources based on vestiges sounds cool) so it'll be similar to how warlock powers have the pact entry on some powers. Changing roles and power source every day? That's totally out of left field. Sure the 3.5 Binder could change role at the drop of a hat, but so could the Cleric - and now the Cleric is solidly within the Leader role. Class features alone go a long way towards defining a role. Warlords would be decent defenders if they had Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority, better proficiencies, more hit points, and more surges. So the Binder could be a Striker if it has bonus damage, or a Leader if it has a minor action healing class features, or a Defender if it has a mark and extra HP/Surges. Powers do contribute to role, but there are many ways to fulfill a role, and all the powers need to be retranslated anyway. Just dropping a handful of powers from the vestiges, or interpretting them to fit the chosen role, would be easy enough. Vestiges which go outside the role might be nerfed a little. For instance, if the Binder class is designed to be a defender then Buer's healing would need to be toned down to be on par with the 4e Paladin's healing. I don't believe the Binder should be able to change it's role. I don't believe it needs to be able to. Also, arcane is the right power source for the Binder. The Warlock proves that pact magic using classes are arcane. The Paladin proves that if another power source grants you a seemingly-martial ability, that it doesn't give you the martial power source. There is simply no reason at all why different pacts should give you different power sources. Every pact is made through arcane means, regardless of the story behind the vestige.
#14 serphet Sep 25, 2008 20:01:02	Changing roles and power source every day? That's totally out of left field. Sure the 3.5 Binder could change role at the drop of a hat, but so could the Cleric - and now the Cleric is solidly within the Leader role. I think you mis interpreted my post... just a little bit. I stated just that.. changing roles isn't a good idea, at the most change power sources. Then I went in to say that to get the variation felt in the 3.5 binder, have a changeable pact (similar to the genasi's manifestations). Now that I'm looking at it, the genasi is a good formula to follow. Have a binder start off with two pacts, and have feats to gain more. then outline various power's that have a secondary attack entry on them for after affects that difer alot based on your current pact. A pact could tend towards stat effects, a pact could tend towards more dmg, and so on. Have the pact switchable during short rests.
#15 Steely_Dan Sep 26, 2008 4:21:43	Binder: Hopefully a vestige pact will appear down the line for warlocks. Shadowcaster: Will be folded into the Shadow Power source, and I'm speculating: -Assassin/Ninja/Shadowdancer = Striker -Hexblade/Blackguard = Defender -Illusionist = Controller -Necromancer = Leader Truenamer: I would think an Arcane Paragon Path would take care of this nicely.
#16 Luis_Carlos Sep 26, 2008 5:03:11	I imagine binder as a soft version of Chaos mutants from Warhammer Fantasy. The new binder could have encounter and daily vestige power..(but when you change vestige don´t regain the daily or encounter powers you have used that day). Each vestige would as a different class. I don´t like illusionists and necromancers with the same power soucer. They are totally diferents. The shadow striker class will be the dark assasin, I think. Nija will be ki striker class.
#17 Steely_Dan Sep 26, 2008 5:33:37	-I don´t like illusionists and necromancers with the same power soucer. They are totally diferents. -Ninja will be ki striker class. -They have stated that Shadow is the source of much Illusion and Necromantic power. -The Monk is all but confirmed as the Ki Striker.
#18 Luis_Carlos Sep 26, 2008 7:18:44	- I don´t agree with creators. Illusion is light and colour. Necromancy is darkness. They are so diferente like day and night. - It isn´t impossible two ki striker class. Wizards and warlock are two arcane controller, and martial strikers class the ranger and rogue.
#19 ranadiel Sep 26, 2008 7:40:22	- I don´t agree with creators. Illusion is light and colour. Necromancy is darkness. They are so diferente like day and night. - It isn´t impossible two ki striker class. Wizards and warlock are two arcane controller, and martial strikers class the ranger and rogue. .....Warlocks aren't controllers. And really going onto the whole ki=asian classes argument has nothing to do with the thread's topic so lets just stop it now.
#20 Steely_Dan Sep 26, 2008 8:20:18	- I don´t agree with creators. Illusion is light and colour. ..And shadow, shadow evocation etc has been with Illusionists/Illusion magic since 1st Ed.
#21 Malckuss Sep 26, 2008 8:28:46	I could see the Binder as a Paragon Path that allowed you to change your Pact after an extended rest. In a similar vein, the Truenamer could be a Paragon Path for the Wizard, in a vein of the Blood Mage, or the Spellstorm Mage; a Paragon Path that allows a wizard to devastate enemies and protect allies by the use of Truenames. As for the Shadowcaster, as others have said, we know we are getting the Shadow Power Source.
#22 eldritch_lord Sep 27, 2008 14:16:17	I and some others on EnWorld were working on a 4e binder port a while back. It involved rituals to bind particular vestiges and then a multiclass-only Binder class. Basically, once you performed the ritual once, you'd "know" a vestige and add it to your repertoire; you'd get an encounter, a utility, and a daily power from the bound vestige, which you'd swap out when you bound it as if you'd used power swap feats. Think of it like a really versatile Wizards' Spellbook: each day, your level X encounter power can be from the vestige instead of your own, and so on. I'm not sure if they've made much progress with it, since I lost the thread with the big server change, but I think that's an interesting way to go about it.
#23 Malckuss Sep 27, 2008 16:09:30	Sounds like the original source material
#24 ranadiel Sep 27, 2008 16:59:30	I and some others on EnWorld were working on a 4e binder port a while back. It involved rituals to bind particular vestiges and then a multiclass-only Binder class. Basically, once you performed the ritual once, you'd "know" a vestige and add it to your repertoire; you'd get an encounter, a utility, and a daily power from the bound vestige, which you'd swap out when you bound it as if you'd used power swap feats. Think of it like a really versatile Wizards' Spellbook: each day, your level X encounter power can be from the vestige instead of your own, and so on. I'm not sure if they've made much progress with it, since I lost the thread with the big server change, but I think that's an interesting way to go about it. I like it. Very true to the 3.5 binder(which was made of win) and still can stay within the bounds of the roles. In fact it couuld actually end up working as a multiclass choice for any of the roles depending on how it was designed.
#25 SuichimoTheDragoon Sep 27, 2008 17:19:36	I could easily see the Shadowcaster being a Shadow Controller. Most of their best Mysteries were battlefield control, along with their mysteries generally having an element of battlefield control.