If I had to guess, I would say that the PHB 3 will contain the shadow, ki, and psionic power sources. But, I guess we will have to wait and see.
Seconded.
I also think we'll see Shadow sooner rather than later, but I'm not sure that this is really much of a preview of anything.
There were also several attacks (from Paragon Paths, IIRC) with the Shadow keyword in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide.
I also think we'll see Shadow sooner rather than later, but I'm not sure that this is really much of a preview of anything.
If anything, I'd say this is the developers saying something along the lines of "All the power sources have existed from the beginning of the game, and we are designing the game world with this in mind." Of course that is just my take on it.
I dont think we are going to see any unsurprising aspects to the Shadow power source.
Fear, Shadows, Necrotic Energy, Undead already appears to be associate with it.
Death Master and all these paragon paths are demonstrating this.
If I had to guess, I would say that the PHB 3 will contain the shadow, ki, and psionic power sources. But, I guess we will have to wait and see.
please be right please be right
I dont think we are going to see any unsurprising aspects to the Shadow power source.\
DOES NOT COMPUTE... double negative... confusing...
DOES NOT COMPUTE... double negative... confusing...
There won't not be no undouble non-negations here where these reverse anti-internauts don't not do no ungrammatical nonposting, none of that.
(Read: Grammar, the real Shadow power source... :P )
The shadow power source seems to be closely mirroring Tome of Magic.
I dont think we are going to see any unsurprising aspects to the Shadow power source.
Fear, Shadows, Necrotic Energy, Undead already appears to be associate with it.
Death Master and all these paragon paths are demonstrating this.
Hopefully that means we'll get the Shadowcaster as the Shadow Controller.
It's not uncommon to get other power sources through a PP. Pretty much one per class in Martial Power (for example, a ranger PP that gives a Primal utility but its other two powers are Martial).
There were also several attacks (from Paragon Paths, IIRC) with the Shadow keyword in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide.
Yes, the Umbriri PP powers have both the Arcane and Shadow source keywords.
It seems that paragon paths are not intended to be tied to their 'base' class power source. There are two ranger PPs in Martial Power with non-Martial powers (Horizon Walker has three Arcane powers and Pack Runner has a Primal power). Umbriri is the only case of individual powers having multiple source keywords I've seen so far, though (I've not seen MotP yet - are the Shadow Captain's powers both Martial and Shadow?)
EDIT: Damn ninjas... :P
Edit: That was supposed to be in reply to Duskweaver.
however, those aren't "power sources" they are keywords, useful for certain feats. From a fluff standpoint it's the same, but from a rulres perspective, shadow keyword doesn't really make it a shadow power source. Warlord is martial, therefor it's PP's are martial... not that it would ever really matter.
Well, from a rules perspective, I don't power source even interacts with the game mechanics except for through keywords, although we've almost no data to base speculation on. (There's simply so few instances of power source actually affecting anything at all, much less to any significant degree.
At this point, I imagine that the only thing that makes a character "Martial", "Arcane", "Shadow", or whatever is whether or not that character can use powers from that power source. (For example, if you're a Swordmage with the Umbriri PP, you're both Arcane and Shadow, although you use Arcane more frequently.)
To be honest I wouldn't be surprised to see the "Shadow" power source show up in the Arcane book when that comes out. I don't see why we would go through Year 2 without 99% of the playable options available to us. It doesn't make sense from a logistical standpoint (at least imho). If you keep consumers waiting too long then the interest is diminished once the product is finally released.
With respect, if what you're suggesting turns out to be the case, it will be a significant deviation from what they've already told us about the power source books.
Additionally, preview blurbs already exist for this product (it's only four months away), and they do not suggest anything other than the Arcane.
As for "99% of playable options" being released, this is, frankly, impossible. This is an imaginative game we're talking about; the playable options are limitless.
But yes, I anticipate the Shadow power source is coming very soon...
I'm kind of surprised that nobody is talking about the passage in the Shadar-Kai section on p. 56 "A few turned to the dark mysteries of shadow and became masters of its power."
But yes, I anticipate the Shadow power source is coming very soon...
I noted that when I read it, (this morning, actually), but I'd thought that much was a given. We already know about Shadar-Kai, and we already know there will be a Shadow power source.
...Unless you're suggesting that Shadow powers will be known as "Mysteries", in which case, good observation!
I noted that when I read it, (this morning, actually), but I'd thought that much was a given. We already know about Shadar-Kai, and we already know there will be a Shadow power source.
...Unless you're suggesting that Shadow powers will be known as "Mysteries", in which case, good observation!
Indeed, that is what I am suggesting!
Indeed, that is what I am suggesting!
Hmm...
Out of curiosity, what were Shadowcasters' spells called in 3.5E's ToM? Wasn't it 'Mysteries' or something similar, or am I completely misremembering?
Hmm...
Out of curiosity, what were Shadowcasters' spells called in 3.5E's ToM? Wasn't it 'Mysteries' or something similar, or am I completely misremembering?
Their cantrip equivalents were Fundamentals and their spell equivalents were Mysteries. So you would be right. Now hopefully they make it as the Shadow Controller as they were one of my top 3 favorite classes.
Their cantrip equivalents were Fundamentals and their spell equivalents were Mysteries. So you would be right. Now hopefully they make it as the Shadow Controller as they were one of my top 3 favorite classes.
I think you got it reversed... there were Fundamentals (of Shadow), which you got at the beginning, and then Major, Lesser, etc. Mysteries, I believe. The naming would make sense... because because before you can understand a mystery, you need to understand the fundamentals.
I think you got it reversed... there were Fundamentals (of Shadow), which you got at the beginning, and then Major, Lesser, etc. Mysteries, I believe. The naming would make sense... because because before you can understand a mystery, you need to understand the fundamentals.
The fundamentals were stuff like Arrow of Dusk. They definitely were the equivalent of cantrips. You could use them more often than cantrips though.
Mysteries did go by the grading scale you mentioned but you started with the base mysteries and built off of those. The fundamentals didn't enter into mystery territory. You even progressed them separately, eventually getting infinite use fundamentals around 14.
Ugh, I'd prefer shadow invocations myself. Ah well, if I actually pick up the book with the shadow power source, I can just rename the powers.
...Surely you're aware of the problem with referring to Shadow powers as "Invocations".
If you're not, here it is:
- Primal powers are already referred to as "Evocations";
- The Divine Controller is called the "Invoker";
- "Invocation" and "evocation" both referred primarily to a form of Arcane magic in previous editions.
That said, of course you have the right to call things whatever you like in your game. (Lord knows that different terminology could've made things plenty more clear.)
Hopefully that means we'll get the Shadowcaster as the Shadow Controller.
I believe the Illusionist will be the Shadow Controller.
I think the Shadowcaster is far more likely, given that he created the Shadow power source single handedly.
My 2e illusionist that took shadow evocation and shadow summon spells, and the shade spells begs to differ..
My 2e necromancer that took neg energy effects and phantasmal killer would also like a word with you...it is a power word...kill
Yes... I hope we never see the name Shadowcaster as a class name. Hella cool class concept in 3.5.... but it can be improved upon, vastly.
And I also second the opinon on the problem with calling Shadow power Invocations. I would also like to add that the word "invocation" in meaning is very similar to the word "prayer." Not a very good match up for Shadow powers, IMO.
We pushed to pick a name for them before any shadow powers were published, but in the end we need the name to feel right with each of the shadow classes. Once we have those closer to final, we'll be able to finalize the name for shadow powers.
Looks like even Wizards hasn't settled on a good one yet!
And I also second the opinon on the problem with calling Shadow power Invocations. I would also like to add that the word "invocation" in meaning is very similar to the word "prayer." Not a very good match up for Shadow powers, IMO.
That, and it sounds too similar to the primal power name (evocations). I'd be fine with 'Hexes' or 'Mysteries' as the name for shadow powers.
That, and it sounds too similar to the primal power name (evocations). I'd be fine with 'Hexes' or 'Mysteries' as the name for shadow powers.
Right... But that was already said, so I didn't list it. x.x
Yes, I understand the problems with my idea for the names of the powers. My reasoning is that you're invoking the dark powers of the Shadowfell.
Any number of verbs could replace the word in bold, though. Same could be said about what other different thing could be invoked.
Yes, I understand the problems with my idea for the names of the powers. My reasoning is that you're invoking the dark powers of the Shadowfell.
Yeah just like wizards invoke the arcane powers of the universe.
And clerics invoke the power of their gods.
Admitedly martial classes don't really work well with invoke, but pretty much everyone else can use it.:P
I'm in the camp that hopes that term 'illusionist' will be kept arcane using feats similar to the weapons specialist feats for gladiators and/or paragon paths. It could go either way, but given that illusions have a fey/gnome tradition as well as a shadowy tradition, I think they'll leave something in for the gnomes that can be linked easily to the Feywild.
Multiclassing would allow a wizard who wanted a decent spread of illusion and shadow magic to achieve that while an illusionist [multiclass] specialist would be able to squeeze a little bit more from arcane illusions. Bards would be able to gain access to a smattering of shadow AND illusion powers via multiclass versatilty.
Whether shadowcaster will remain the base shadow controller remains to be seen, but I think that it will likely be a controller with striker overtones.
Sadly, while I'd love to see some feats for shadar kai and some shadow love in Dragon (my character has been converted from a 2e shadow mage) I can't see us getting much more than crumbs until PHB3 is due to come out.
At the moment my pc is a warlock. A good compromise would be if they could come up with a Shadow Pact build in a Dragon article. Since this is arcane, it wouldn't be appearing in PHB3 but it might be stepping on the toes of the Arcane Handbook.
Drip feeding us goodies over the next 10 years is going to get very frustrating!
1 - Umbrage is an old word and has not changed very much over the centuries, coming from the latin umbraticum. I think that this gives it a cryptic (due to its long history) yet deep (since it hasn't changed much) nature. {which seems very shadow-y to me :D )
2 - It directly means shade, shadow, or as a verb, to shade, to shadow. This gives it, in my mind, a direct application towards shadow based magic or attacks. As you cast, for example, shadow based magic on an enemy you shadow them; necromancy might be rp'd to say that you cast a shadow on life or that your powers invoke shades of life (i.e. raising the dead); and strikes from the shadows could be casting your own shadow over another {so far, this sounds more like how to rp shadow power classes, but I think this is part of where umbrage works}
3 - The most common contemporary usage of umbrage is suspicion of slight or the phrase to take umbrage, which means to take offense at. I think this makes perfect sense for shadow based skills, as the shadow power source is often thought of as dark, sinister or evil, but is more precisely misunderstood and misrepresented by the rest of the world. So it makes sense that a word that originally just meant shadow and now is used in a more sinister way is applied to shadow magic, which is often first thought of as evil, but is not necessarily so. {The Shadowfell is a dark echo of the world...places of deep shadow...not wholly evil, but everything in the Shadowfell has its dark and sinister side. From the 4e DM's guid} This gives it an appropriately neutral nature for PC's from either side, but still a sinister application for monsters and the like.
Just my $0.02, 'course there is no basis for this in anything previous so it may just be my own particular piece of flare
I can't see them moving away from the term 'Mysteries' for shadow-sourced powers, particularly since the ToM power template that they used for the shadowcaster went on to form the basis for the 4e powers for every class and because they need to keep as many name options open as they can for future power sources.
I'm in the camp that hopes that term 'illusionist' will be kept arcane using feats similar to the weapons specialist feats for gladiators and/or paragon paths. It could go either way, but given that illusions have a fey/gnome tradition as well as a shadowy tradition, I think they'll leave something in for the gnomes that can be linked easily to the Feywild.
Remember, power sources don't necessarily have any connection to planar energies, flavour included. I dare say that any similarities between a plane and a power source are purely coincidental, even though it seem almost a natural fit at times.
Additionally, don't forget that Gnomes have already been associated with a (flavor) affinity for Arcane magic, and that Arcane already presents some illusion effects.
Multiclassing would allow a wizard who wanted a decent spread of illusion and shadow magic to achieve that while an illusionist [multiclass] specialist would be able to squeeze a little bit more from arcane illusions. Bards would be able to gain access to a smattering of shadow AND illusion powers via multiclass versatilty.
Whether shadowcaster will remain the base shadow controller remains to be seen, but I think that it will likely be a controller with striker overtones.
Interesting idea. You might be right.
I want to repeat that I think "Shadowcaster" is an unlikely choice for a class name (sorry, Cadfan), and for reasons already stated here and elsewhere: Don't all Shadow power-source characters "cast" Shadows? (Hell, doesn't almost all solid matter "cast" shadows?) OTOH, "Invoker" made it as a class name, despite the excellent reason against it: it sounds too much like "evocation", the name for Primal powers.
Sadly, while I'd love to see some feats for shadar kai and some shadow love in Dragon (my character has been converted from a 2e shadow mage) I can't see us getting much more than crumbs until PHB3 is due to come out.
At the moment my pc is a warlock. A good compromise would be if they could come up with a Shadow Pact build in a Dragon article. Since this is arcane, it wouldn't be appearing in PHB3 but it might be stepping on the toes of the Arcane Handbook.
Have you considered the Dark Pact? Thematically, it's not too far from shadow, although it's not exactly the same either. Suffice to say, "Shadow" and "Dark" each getting their own pacts might seem pretty redundant.
Drip feeding us goodies over the next 10 years is going to get very frustrating!
Don't worry, Ranadiel and I will still be here! :P
(And by saying that, I've provided an almost certain guarantee to the universe that we will not be.)
Don't worry, Ranadiel and I will still be here! :P
(And by saying that, I've provided an almost certain guarantee to the universe that we will not be.)
You mean you are the other person who is surviving 2012.
There go my plans for after the end of the world.:PYou mean you are the other person who is surviving 2012.
...Wait, you mean you're not a chick, R?
Crap.
I believe the Illusionist will be the Shadow Controller.
I think the Shadowcaster is far more likely.
I think very little stops them from both being shadow controllers. Though as others have said the shadowcaster will probably be going by a different name
I think very little stops them from both being shadow controllers. Though as others have said the shadowcaster will probably be going by a different name
It could go as Illusionist. :P FWIW, given that WotC is trying to design classes that are not only thematically linked to their power source, but also unique, it's hard to imagine a 4E Illusionist as a "Wizard with illusion spells" as he would have been in previous editions. I think the Illusionist might be poised to steal the Shadowcaster's identity (and add his illusion-flavour to the mix).
Additionally, there's still talk of Necromancer being a Shadow class, possibly a Controller or Leader, depending on which way they take it.
Think about it; if all their attack powers have the Illusion keyword, then the PC will be compleatly useless against any creature with high-resistance/immunity to illusions. And that is very much against the paradigm if 4e.
It would make a bunch more sense to either:
a) Give the "illusionist" more tricks than just illusion, making it something new (something that might be called a "beguiler," though scratch everything 3.5 PH2 as far as I care.)
b) Give Illusion powers to all classes invloved with Shadow power, making illusions a standard part of the power source and usable in any party role.
I imagine it would be a pretty versatile class. You could have:
-Illusions
-Roguish abilities
-Tricks
-Shadow Magic (Shadow Teleporting, Shadow Tentacles, etc.)
I imagine though not that much stuff, probably get cut down a bit. With perhaps some broadening out in all the Shadow classes or in Shadow Power book.
I could see as a individual thing it does differently when it comes to Powers is to somewhat replicate the hidden/instant casting of the Beguiler. There could be much more Immediate or Minor Powers for the Beguiler/Illusionist.
I am quite willing to bet all the Necromancer rumours will be true. Though be interesting to see if perhaps instead of less zombie undead. We get more Wraiths, Shadows, etc. things more insubstantial to reflect Shadows and Illusions. I would love to see a Implement of the Necromancer to be objects tied to these spirits, like heirlooms from when the spirit was alive.
I would very like to see the Illusionist take on aspects of the Beguiler. Or the Beguiler be brought back wholesale in a new Shadow Power form.
I imagine it would be a pretty versatile class. You could have:
-Illusions
-Roguish abilities
-Tricks
-Shadow Magic (Shadow Teleporting, Shadow Tentacles, etc.)
Actually, this is one of things that tips slightly in favour of illusionists being a shadow class. The shadow caster class did have access to some thiefy type abilities, and much of the Beguiler's abilities would now be covered by skill and feat choices. You could have a variety of powers under a shadow controller class with 3 builds:
Illusionist - who gains extra benefits to illusion keyword powers
Shadow Mage - who gains extra benefits to shadow keyword powers
Beguiler - who gains extra benefits to powers related to trickery
It's certainly doable.
There are a few areas in the Draconomicon which seem to make a passing reference to True Name magic.
I hope to see Tome of Magic's ideas make it into 4E; I liked everything in that book; it's a shame that I didn't pick it up until 3E was almost done.
I think very little stops them from both being shadow controllers. Though as others have said the shadowcaster will probably be going by a different name
Actually, my argument goes a little further. I don't think "Illusionist" will exist at all. I think that its a forum meme only. Illusions are one of the things that the shadow power source is supposed to have. I don't think its likely that there will be an entire class dedicated to just illusions. I think it is more likely that illusions will be spread amongst the entire shadow power source.
I understand why people on the forum think there will be an Illusionist. Its been revealed that the Shadow power source contains illusions, necromancy, and a bunch of stuff related to the Plane of Shadow. Erm, I mean the Shadowfell. So logically people look at that and think, "Ok, there will be an Illusionist, a Necromancer, and then whatever we can figure out to fill out the other roles." I think that's not good logic. I think we can instead expect to find most or all of the themes of the shadow power source spread out amongst most or all of the shadow classes, in varying amounts based upon theme. You know, like with every other power source.
That's why I think that, if you look at the shadow power source in the most holistic and thematic focused manner, the most likely 3e classes to look to for influences are the Shadowcaster, the Shadowcaster PRCs, the Shadow Dancer, and the Dread Necromancer. Of course, with Open Grave coming out, I could be wrong on the last one.
Actually, I was thinking the illusionist and necromancer could become the same class, a shadow controller. I even have a name: the Magus!
While I agree with the sentiment, I can't really take the name very seriously... No offense.
While I agree with the sentiment, I can really take the name very seriously... No offense.
Seconded.....the shadow controller is going to end up with a horrible name no matter what isn't it?
Blackgaurd
Warblade
Divine Mind
*shudder*
In all likely hood, over half the classes in PHB3 and later will have horrible names.
Blackgaurd
Warblade
Divine Mind
*shudder*
Oh come on, we only have three confirmed names for classes beyond PHBII; artificer, empath, and monk. None of those are particularly bad(please no one start the monk argument). I think they could manage to get decent names for the classes.....the shadow controller is just going to be an exception to that rule.
Oh come on, we only have three confirmed names for classes beyond PHBII; artificer, empath, and monk. None of those are particularly bad(please no one start the monk argument). I think they could manage to get decent names for the classes.....the shadow controller is just going to be an exception to that rule.
when did Empath get leaked???
In all likely hood, over half the classes in PHB3 and later will have horrible names.
Blackgaurd
Warblade
Divine Mind
*shudder*
No, man. "Blackguards" were evil Paladins, so now they're just Paladins. Hexblade for Shadow Defender!
Divine Mind is also out, because no classes are going to have two-word names. Additionally, what power source would it be? Psionic? Then why is it called "Divine"? :P
Additionally, what power source would it be? Psionic? Then why is it called "Divine"? :P
The same reason it was called divine back in 3rd edition when clerics and paladins were using divine spells?:P
The same reason it was called divine back in 3rd edition when clerics and paladins were using divine spells?:P
...So why was it called "Divine Mind"? Was it actually Divine?
...So why was it called "Divine Mind"? Was it actually Divine?
*shrugs* Ask the designers for 3.X's Divine Mind.
It was god granted psionics, I think. Sort of a Psi-adin.
...I see.
Obviously, I have no experience with this Divine Mind class. Would you mind if I asked whether the concept was as silly as it sounds?
I think the Shadowcaster is far more likely, given that he created the Shadow power source single handedly.
Power Sources never saw print in any previous edition of this game.
Power Sources never saw print in any previous edition of this game.
Blah, blah, blah. Take your nit picking back to the... what, seven page long thread already dedicated to it?
The Shadowcaster used Shadow magic. It was a different type of magic mastered by study of the plane of shadow. It didn't interact cleanly with regular magic- if you knew shadow magic, your knowledge: Arcana checks regarding regular magic were penalized, and vice versa. There were also penalties on dispelling regular magic with shadow, and vice versa. Mastering it followed a different format, as well. The longer you knew a shadow mystery, the better you got at it, until it became a supernatural ability. Studying shadow magic caused you to slowly change physically.
The "power source" system didn't exist, but to the extent that there was a difference between "arcane" and "divine" magic, there was as much or more of a difference between those forms of magic and "shadow" magic.
Furthermore, Shadow magic in 3e had the following themes: Illusions. Control of negative energy. Reflections. Shadows. Darkness.
The "Shadow" power source in 4e has the following themes: Illusions. Control of negative energy. Powers associated with the Shadowfell, which is a parallel "reflection" of regular reality filled with "shadows" and "darkness." We've already seen some Shadow powered abilities, and they have in part related to shadows and illusory reflections.
So, if you want to sit there and claim that I can't validly make a connection between the 3e "shadow energy" themed powers and the 4e "shadow" power source, whatever. The connection is as obvious as the connection between 3e arcane magic and the 4e "Arcane" power source. At least to anyone who isn't making a Heroic Last Stand in some thread no one's reading anymore.
...I see.
Obviously, I have no experience with this Divine Mind class. Would you mind if I asked whether the concept was as silly as it sounds?
Well originally they designed the Ardent to be sort of a psionic cleric, but it was determined that the class was just too powerful. So they split the Ardent into 2 classes, the original Ardent getting most of the psionic powers with some of the healing and "mantles" which were basically domains. The Divine Mind ended up getting auras, which gave certain bonuses to allies within 5 feet per Divine Mind level.
I could definitely see the Divine Mind aura part coming back in 4e, since that certainly does scream "Leader". I don't anticipate the name or most of the concept coming back though.
My personal wager is that the necromancer is going to be the shadow controler. We may see the deathmaster come back as a striker akin to the warlock, but given that all undead are of the "shadow" origin, I expect to see a lot of that theme and idea in the shadow power source.
This argument sorta collapses when you realize that there's a huge number of Natural-origin (rather than Shadow-origin) undead, not to mention at least a few Elemental-origin undead.
I agree that Necromancer might be the Shadow Controller, but I'm not sure we should expect the Shadow power source to be as undead-focused as you seem to be expecting.
Well originally they designed the Ardent to be sort of a psionic cleric, but it was determined that the class was just too powerful. So they split the Ardent into 2 classes, the original Ardent getting most of the psionic powers with some of the healing and "mantles" which were basically domains. The Divine Mind ended up getting auras, which gave certain bonuses to allies within 5 feet per Divine Mind level.
I could definitely see the Divine Mind aura part coming back in 4e, since that certainly does scream "Leader". I don't anticipate the name or most of the concept coming back though.
That all makes sense. (Kinda speaks to how weird and redundant psionics and magic were together in previous editions; thankfully, 4E seems to have sorted out that problem early on.)
As for the Divine Mind being killed and its stuff taken, it certainly wouldn't be the first time something like that happened. Do you think it'll be a big part of the Empath's shtick?
That all makes sense. (Kinda speaks to how weird and redundant psionics and magic were together in previous editions; thankfully, 4E seems to have sorted out that problem early on.)
At the time that was an intentional design decision. The idea was that you were supposed to be able to play all arcane magic or all psionics games. This led to a certain amount of redundancy between the two systems. Its why I expect 4e psionics to be very different from 3e psionics- I expect fewer mechanical differences, and a stronger thematic focus.
As for the Divine Mind being killed and its stuff taken, it certainly wouldn't be the first time something like that happened. Do you think it'll be a big part of the Empath's shtick?
Personally, I expect ground up redesign of basically everything.
At the time that was an intentional design decision. The idea was that you were supposed to be able to play all arcane magic or all psionics games. This led to a certain amount of redundancy between the two systems. Its why I expect 4e psionics to be very different from 3e psionics- I expect fewer mechanical differences, and a stronger thematic focus.
For some reason, I'm getting that sort of smug feeling you get at the museum, when, after learning about some primitive, barbaric ancient culture, you smile and say to yourself, "Look at how far we've come..."
I think it's better this way, Cadfan.
D&D isn't always about killing this and killing that. 4E doesn't take away from anything significantly enough for social situations to be rendered inadequate.
On the subject of the shadow power source, I honestly don't see shadowcaster being a class name anymore...there will be shadow casters as a generic term...but beyond that, sorry shadowcaster, you've been kicked to the curb.
There won't not be no undouble non-negations here where these reverse anti-internauts don't not do no ungrammatical nonposting, none of that.
(Read: Grammar, the real Shadow power source... :P )
....OW!....My brain hurts now....
