So the Assassin has debuted. Hexes, not Mysteries, are the names of the powers. This seems to imply Hexblade as the Shadow Defender for PH4. Discuss, or discuss Assassin or whatever.
I think you are on target with Hexblade being a Shadow Defender. I made a pretty cool "feeling" hexblade with both multiclass build and a hybrid build. It definitely had the flavor but I was kinda disappointed because it relied on ranged attacks alot. I look forward to seeing an official hexblade. Keeping my fingers crossed for 2011.
I lean towards no, for the matter that I think they might try to avoid redundant terms like that, but ultimately I just don't know.
I lean towards no, for the matter that I think they might try to avoid redundant terms like that, but ultimately I just don't know.
Like what? There's a class called a Psion you know, that's uses the Psionic Power Source.
Nowhere is it written they avoid something like that.
I lean towards no, for the matter that I think they might try to avoid redundant terms like that, but ultimately I just don't know.
Like what? There's a class called a Psion you know, that's uses the Psionic Power Source.Nowhere is it written they avoid something like that.
But their powers are called Disciplines, not psi-anything.
I know that it's not written anywhere that they avoid it, but I think they will.
I am definanly in the camp for a new hexblade. I always liked the class.
I hope to God for a hexblade as the shadow defender...
I'll add my voice to te chorus: Gives us a Hexblade shadow defender!
Although I think it might be interesting to have no shadow defender at all, like there is no martial controller, and make Hexblade another shadow striker or maybe even melee-oriented controller.
If they do make Hexblade the shadow defender, it'll probably be more like Swordmage than anything else.
I loved Hexblade, the last 3.5 character I made was a Hexblade; the Hexblade was all about the debuff, there were times when I had monsters begging for mery because I had so many penalty on them they couldn't do a thing.
I think Hexblade could be a really fun and interesting type of Defender; while Fighters and Paladins try to build aggro and take one for the team to protect their allies, Hexblades would just have all the monsters gunning for them simply because misfortune and woe follows in Hexblade's footsteps, because most Hexblades don't really care about protecting people or being a martyr, they just have a cursed soul which brings constant trouble and strife and they've learned how to channel their afilction against their enemies. I can see how many would even want to be good, or at least have reason to hate evil.
I see them as being potentially different in flavor from the Assassin quite a bit; I could see the Assassin as being the Warlock to the Hexblade's Sorcerer, the Assassin sells his soul for the power of shadow, and other is just born under ill omen and is forever blighted with a dark destiny.
I imagin a hexblade mark has the -2 all of them do, a minor rider, AND the ability to use an intrupt within 5 or 10 to weaken the target before damage is done.
Maybe
Hexblade curse
Minor at will close burst 5 (10 at 15th level)
1 target in burst
target takes a -2 to all attacks that do not include the hexblade, and as long as the target is marked they gain vunrability to necrotic damage equal to 1/2 the hex blades level. If the target attacks a target and doesn't unclude the hexblade the hexblade may use an immediate inturpt to weaken the target until the begining of the targets next turn.
Actually I think it'll function closer to the Warden than the Swordmage or Paladin, since he designers admitted to the fact that power-based marking isn't as good as free marking.
Perhaps Hexblades will be able to mark any creature they can see 1/turn as a free action, akin to Wardens marking all adjacent enemies as a free action. Then like the Warden, Hexblade has a few class-feature powers that trigger when a marked enemy does something, and these powers can be curses. Like, "Immediate Interrupt; Trigger: When a marked enemy attacks an ally; Effect: The target is weakened until the start of your next turn." or "Immediate Reaction; Trigger; When a marked enemy damages an ally; Effect: The target takes [some odd] damage."
The Hexblade doing multi-marking like the Warden would actually make sense, since he's a bearer of woe and unfortune - it follows him wherever he goes, so everything attacks him instead of attacking someone else.
Personally I'd rather see something like Blackguard as the shadow defender. I know that paladins can be evil now, but even an evil paladin has themes as the holy knight (as even an evil paladin still draws strength from the gods). I want a true anti-paladin black knight like class.
As for hexblade, I'd rather see the concept fulfilled as a melee build for warlocks come Arcane Power 2 (with more powers in the like of Eldritch Strike).
I think they should move away from blades. We already have the swordmage. Give some other weapon groups some love. The shadow defender should be a hex non-blade. Perhaps a hexhammer, hexaxe, hexflail, or hexpolearm.
I think they should move away from blades. We already have the swordmage. Give some other weapon groups some love. The shadow defender should be a hex non-blade. Perhaps a hexhammer, hexaxe, hexflail, or hexpolearm.
Traditionally the Hexblade has no connections to blades as far as required weapons. And I always opt to allow the sword mage to be an axe mage or hammer mage if the player wants it, I think limiting it to any weapon group as opposed to one is better.
I loved Hexblade, the last 3.5 character I made was a Hexblade; the Hexblade was all about the debuff, there were times when I had monsters begging for mery because I had so many penalty on them they couldn't do a thing.
I think Hexblade could be a really fun and interesting type of Defender; while Fighters and Paladins try to build aggro and take one for the team to protect their allies, Hexblades would just have all the monsters gunning for them simply because misfortune and woe follows in Hexblade's footsteps, because most Hexblades don't really care about protecting people or being a martyr, they just have a cursed soul which brings constant trouble and strife and they've learned how to channel their afilction against their enemies. I can see how many would even want to be good, or at least have reason to hate evil.
I see them as being potentially different in flavor from the Assassin quite a bit; I could see the Assassin as being the Warlock to the Hexblade's Sorcerer, the Assassin sells his soul for the power of shadow, and other is just born under ill omen and is forever blighted with a dark destiny.
Just great!
Now I understand why I was happy to see you had bumped on my page McNancy! 
What do you call a dragon born hexblade?
a Hexagon!
I'll add my voice to te chorus: Gives us a Hexblade shadow defender!
Although I think it might be interesting to have no shadow defender at all, like there is no martial controller, and make Hexblade another shadow striker or maybe even melee-oriented controller.
If they do make Hexblade the shadow defender, it'll probably be more like Swordmage than anything else.
I want a Hexblade, and I always thought it would be a Shadow Defender in 4E!
However, your suggestion of Hexblade-as-melee-oriented-Shadow-Controller is a cool one! The downside is that we've already got two classes potentially fighting over the Shadow Controller role: Necromancer and Illusionist.
Personally, I think the Necromancer would be a great Leader -- he leads undead, and steals lifeforce from enemies in order to buff allies. I also believe we still need a proper Shadow Illusionist, regardless of the handful of Illusion powers available to Wizards. In short, my guess is Hexblade = Defender, Necromancer = Leader, Illusionist = Controller. Of course, doubling-up is still possible.
Any bets on Ninjas? I always thought they were a shoe-in for Shadow Striker, although the Assassin is everything I expected the Ninja to be, except in name. Does anyone think it will still show up as a distinct class, in this or another power source? At this point, I think "Ninja" would be best served as a multiclass-only class, similar to the Gladiator or the (multiclass-only) Assassin.
Personally I'd rather see something like Blackguard as the shadow defender. I know that paladins can be evil now, but even an evil paladin has themes as the holy knight (as even an evil paladin still draws strength from the gods). I want a true anti-paladin black knight like class.
As for hexblade, I'd rather see the concept fulfilled as a melee build for warlocks come Arcane Power 2 (with more powers in the like of Eldritch Strike).
Between evil Paladins and (speculated) Hexblade shadow-knights, I'm not sure there's any room left for the Blackguard as a class. 3E really left the impression that Blackguards/Anti-Paladins were basically just evil Paladins.
Of course, Blackguard would still make a great Paragon Path.
What do you call a dragon born hexblade?
a Hexagon!
:D
Hook: The Assassin is everything I expected the Ninja to be.
Sounds like the developers are listening to the players and giving them what they want.
Many players, especially those who are intimate with reallife Ninja lore, requested a Rogue build to pick up all the mundane Ninja abilities and a Shadow class to pick up all the mystical Ninja abilities.
Seems like the Assassin is indeed the mystical Ninja, but - as players requested - suitable not just for East Asian campaign settings, but for any flavor setting.
I'll add my voice to te chorus: Gives us a Hexblade shadow defender!
Although I think it might be interesting to have no shadow defender at all, like there is no martial controller, and make Hexblade another shadow striker or maybe even melee-oriented controller.
If they do make Hexblade the shadow defender, it'll probably be more like Swordmage than anything else.
I want a Hexblade, and I always thought it would be a Shadow Defender in 4E!However, your suggestion of Hexblade-as-melee-oriented-Shadow-Controller is a cool one! The downside is that we've already got two classes potentially fighting over the Shadow Controller role: Necromancer and Illusionist.
Personally, I think the Necromancer would be a great Leader -- he leads undead, and steals lifeforce from enemies in order to buff allies. I also believe we still need a proper Shadow Illusionist, regardless of the handful of Illusion powers available to Wizards. In short, my guess is Hexblade = Defender, Necromancer = Leader, Illusionist = Controller. Of course, doubling-up is still possible.
Any bets on Ninjas? I always thought they were a shoe-in for Shadow Striker, although the Assassin is everything I expected the Ninja to be, except in name. Does anyone think it will still show up as a distinct class, in this or another power source? At this point, I think "Ninja" would be best served as a multiclass-only class, similar to the Gladiator or the (multiclass-only) Assassin.
Illusionist is a full on build of wizard, after Arcane Power. It has it's own implement power, orb of deception or some such(don't have the book on me) and 2-4 illusion powers at every appropriate level, including utility. It even has PP's designed to compliment it. I'm sorry Illusionist isn't likely for a shadow class.
If they do a melee conrtoller I hope it's martial before they make one in another power source.
I do think Necro could go leader or controller depending.
Hook: The Assassin is everything I expected the Ninja to be.
Sounds like the developers are listening to the players and giving them what they want.
Many players, especially those who are intimate with reallife Ninja lore, requested a Rogue build to pick up all the mundane Ninja abilities and a Shadow class to pick up all the mystical Ninja abilities.
Seems like the Assassin is indeed the mystical Ninja, but - as players requested - suitable not just for East Asian campaign settings, but for any flavor setting.
Definitely, and IMHO, suitable for basically any setting is how it should be.
I recall a few people tossing around suggestions of "Ninja as Elemental", and between that and Shadow and Martial, it's pretty obvious that the Ninja-concept was too nebulous for one class. (It also makes it pretty obvious why Ki had to go, too.) Add this to the handful of folks suggesting that Ninja should be Defenders or melee Controllers rather than Strikers, and the notion is even more muddled, all without even attempting to approach historical accuracy.
All these reasons together make me think that multiclass-only is the only the Ninja could exist in 4E and still satisfy the majority.
Jedi: Illusionist is a full on build of wizard, after Arcane Power.
So glad!
The connection between 'illusion' and 'death' that the Shadow-Shadowfell power source forced, bothers me.
Shadow-Shadowfell owns darkness, yes. Shadow-walking ethereality, yes. Stealth, yes. Even shadowy ghostly forms, yes.
But illusion, requires telepathy, enchanting and deceiving the mind and the senses. Illusion themes belong to the Psionic power source.
I can live with the decision to marry Illusion to the Arcane power source. Especially, as Arcane themes overlap with Fey creatures, for who it is an appropriate archetype.
By the way, a Shadow-Striker Assassin (Ninja) with ... darkness, ethereality, stealth, ghostly force, and mystical death strikes ... perfect!
I'll add my voice to te chorus: Gives us a Hexblade shadow defender!
Although I think it might be interesting to have no shadow defender at all, like there is no martial controller, and make Hexblade another shadow striker or maybe even melee-oriented controller.
If they do make Hexblade the shadow defender, it'll probably be more like Swordmage than anything else.
I want a Hexblade, and I always thought it would be a Shadow Defender in 4E!However, your suggestion of Hexblade-as-melee-oriented-Shadow-Controller is a cool one! The downside is that we've already got two classes potentially fighting over the Shadow Controller role: Necromancer and Illusionist.
Personally, I think the Necromancer would be a great Leader -- he leads undead, and steals lifeforce from enemies in order to buff allies. I also believe we still need a proper Shadow Illusionist, regardless of the handful of Illusion powers available to Wizards. In short, my guess is Hexblade = Defender, Necromancer = Leader, Illusionist = Controller. Of course, doubling-up is still possible.
Any bets on Ninjas? I always thought they were a shoe-in for Shadow Striker, although the Assassin is everything I expected the Ninja to be, except in name. Does anyone think it will still show up as a distinct class, in this or another power source? At this point, I think "Ninja" would be best served as a multiclass-only class, similar to the Gladiator or the (multiclass-only) Assassin.
Illusionist is a full on build of wizard, after Arcane Power. It has it's own implement power, orb of deception or some such(don't have the book on me) and 2-4 illusion powers at every appropriate level, including utility. It even has PP's designed to compliment it. I'm sorry Illusionist isn't likely for a shadow class.
If they do a melee conrtoller I hope it's martial before they make one in another power source.
I do think Necro could go leader or controller depending.
So it is! Still, even if they don't actually use the name "Illusionist" for the class, I still think Shadow will include at least one "caster-type" class that's heavily illusion-based, because illusions were mentioned as one of the core concepts of the Shadow power source when it was first revealed to us. I think that Controller is the natural role for such an illusion-based class.
(It wouldn't be the first time we've seen redundant names if they called it an Illusionist, anyway; we've got an Assassin class, as well as a multiclass-only class called "assassin" and a "Shadow Assassin" paragon path for the Rogue; we've also got an Avenger class, an "Avenging Paladin" build in PH1, and a Cleric paragon path called "Angelic Avenger". These are just the examples off the top of my head. My point is that they could still use the name "Illusionist" for a class, despite the Wizard build.)
Hook: Pretty obvious that the Ninja-concept was too nebulous for one class. (It also makes it pretty obvious why Ki had to go, too.) ... all without even attempting to approach historical accuracy.
All these reasons together make me think that multiclass-only is the only the Ninja could exist in 4E - and still satisfy the majority.
Yeah. Ninja includes so many themes.
Paragon Paths can also help to build certain Ninja concepts, where both the Assassin and the Rogue, as well as other appropriate classes can take it.
Even tho the Ki power source was mentioned in early 4e plans, it just didnt make sense because it covered so many themes already covered by other power sources, and proved 'untenable'. Im glad the developers care about these kinds of things and are willing to abort less-useful categories, even ones they planned on.
I'll add my voice to te chorus: Gives us a Hexblade shadow defender!
Although I think it might be interesting to have no shadow defender at all, like there is no martial controller, and make Hexblade another shadow striker or maybe even melee-oriented controller.
If they do make Hexblade the shadow defender, it'll probably be more like Swordmage than anything else.
I want a Hexblade, and I always thought it would be a Shadow Defender in 4E!However, your suggestion of Hexblade-as-melee-oriented-Shadow-Controller is a cool one! The downside is that we've already got two classes potentially fighting over the Shadow Controller role: Necromancer and Illusionist.
Personally, I think the Necromancer would be a great Leader -- he leads undead, and steals lifeforce from enemies in order to buff allies. I also believe we still need a proper Shadow Illusionist, regardless of the handful of Illusion powers available to Wizards. In short, my guess is Hexblade = Defender, Necromancer = Leader, Illusionist = Controller. Of course, doubling-up is still possible.
Any bets on Ninjas? I always thought they were a shoe-in for Shadow Striker, although the Assassin is everything I expected the Ninja to be, except in name. Does anyone think it will still show up as a distinct class, in this or another power source? At this point, I think "Ninja" would be best served as a multiclass-only class, similar to the Gladiator or the (multiclass-only) Assassin.
Illusionist is a full on build of wizard, after Arcane Power. It has it's own implement power, orb of deception or some such(don't have the book on me) and 2-4 illusion powers at every appropriate level, including utility. It even has PP's designed to compliment it. I'm sorry Illusionist isn't likely for a shadow class.
If they do a melee conrtoller I hope it's martial before they make one in another power source.
I do think Necro could go leader or controller depending.
So it is! Still, even if they don't actually use the name "Illusionist" for the class, I still think Shadow will include at least one "caster-type" class that's heavily illusion-based, because illusions were mentioned as one of the core concepts of the Shadow power source when it was first revealed to us. I think that Controller is the natural role for such an illusion-based class.(It wouldn't be the first time we've seen redundant names if they called it an Illusionist, anyway; we've got an Assassin class, as well as a multiclass-only class called "assassin" and a "Shadow Assassin" paragon path for the Rogue; we've also got an Avenger class, an "Avenging Paladin" build in PH1, and a Cleric paragon path called "Angelic Avenger". These are just the examples off the top of my head. My point is that they could still use the name "Illusionist" for a class, despite the Wizard build.)
Fair enough. And good point. I would hope the avoid this high level of redundancy, but it is possible. And an Illusion based class is still very possible.
I recall a few people tossing around suggestions of "Ninja as Elemental", and between that and Shadow and Martial, it's pretty obvious that the Ninja-concept was too nebulous for one class. (It also makes it pretty obvious why Ki had to go, too.) Add this to the handful of folks suggesting that Ninja should be Defenders or melee Controllers rather than Strikers, and the notion is even more muddled, all without even attempting to approach historical accuracy.
I don't thinks the problem was ever that the ninja was too nebulous a concept, rather that the very nature of speculation is nebulous to begin with. Prior to it's play test the barbarians role (defender or striker) was hotly debated. People are still debating whether the Necromancer should be a controller or leader, whether or not their should still be a shadow illusionist, and whether the Hexblade should be a defender or melee controller (or whether the shadow defender should instead be something like the black guard). Then there's the entirety of the elemental power source, a concept so nebulous that no ones manage to produce any particular viable speculation yet.
For me the fact that the assassin fulfills the goals that most every one advocating ninja for shadow striker had is proof that the concept wasn't too nebulous. It my be a rose by a different name, but it still smells sweet.
The connection between 'illusion' and 'death' that the Shadow-Shadowfell power source forced, bothers me.Shadow-Shadowfell owns darkness, yes. Shadow-walking ethereality, yes. Stealth, yes. Even shadowy ghostly forms, yes.
But illusion, requires telepathy, enchanting and deceiving the mind and the senses. Illusion themes belong to the Psionic power source.
I can live with the decision to marry Illusion to the Arcane power source. Especially, as Arcane themes overlap with Fey creatures, for who it is an appropriate archetype.
Somewhat true, but their is more to it. I've always thought there was room for 3 distinct types of illusionist in 4e.
- Arcane (mirages): Tricks of light and sound, they aren't real but they give the appearance of reality
- Psionic (figments): Images projected directly into the targets mind, they still aren't real but they seem real to the target.
- Shadow (shadowcraft): constructs of shadow, they aren't quite real, but the aren't entirely fake either. Illusionists of this third type would be based around the old 3e spells shadow evocation and shadow conjuration.
I predict:
Hexblade: Defender
Shadowcaster: Controller
Necromancer: Leader
I don't know the rest.
The Hexblade is pretty obvious. The curse provides a great marking mechanism. Shadowcaster is pretty obvious too- the entire Shadow power source seems to be derived from him, so I expect him to make a showing.
I think the Necromancer is more questionable in terms of whether it exists at all, but if it does then I think it makes a good leader. You'd be adding monsters to the table, then leading them in battle, healing by infusing people with dark energies, etc, etc. It would work pretty well.
As for the Ninja, well, martial arts fantasy is the one kind of fantasy that D&D seems to be expressly avoiding as much as possible. We've got indian weapons, egyptian weapons, middle eastern weapons, norse weapons... and no katana. I'm thinking that it may be an intentional decision at this point, made somewhere after the inclusion of the shuriken and before the elimination of the ki power source.
I predict:
Hexblade: Defender
Shadowcaster: Controller
Necromancer: Leader
I don't know the rest.
The Hexblade is pretty obvious. The curse provides a great marking mechanism. Shadowcaster is pretty obvious too- the entire Shadow power source seems to be derived from him, so I expect him to make a showing.
I think the Necromancer is more questionable in terms of whether it exists at all, but if it does then I think it makes a good leader. You'd be adding monsters to the table, then leading them in battle, healing by infusing people with dark energies, etc, etc. It would work pretty well.
As for the Ninja, well, martial arts fantasy is the one kind of fantasy that D&D seems to be expressly avoiding as much as possible. We've got indian weapons, egyptian weapons, middle eastern weapons, norse weapons... and no katana. I'm thinking that it may be an intentional decision at this point, made somewhere after the inclusion of the shuriken and before the elimination of the ki power source.
Katana = Longsword.
Actually, Katana = Bastard Sword. They may not be shaped the same way in the artwork, but they're the same thing - can be wielded with two hands to deal more damage.
Actually, Katana = Bastard Sword. They may not be shaped the same way in the artwork, but they're the same thing - can be wielded with two hands to deal more damage.
Isn't a longsword also versatile?
oh, my bad. I guess years of it not being versatile rubbed off on me.
But I usually would assume a Katana is bigger than a longsword by a bit - more the size of a bastard sword. I guess a longsword would work though for one.
I predict:
Hexblade: Defender
Shadowcaster: Controller
Necromancer: Leader
I don't know the rest.
The Hexblade is pretty obvious. The curse provides a great marking mechanism. Shadowcaster is pretty obvious too- the entire Shadow power source seems to be derived from him, so I expect him to make a showing.
I think the Necromancer is more questionable in terms of whether it exists at all, but if it does then I think it makes a good leader. You'd be adding monsters to the table, then leading them in battle, healing by infusing people with dark energies, etc, etc. It would work pretty well.
As for the Ninja, well, martial arts fantasy is the one kind of fantasy that D&D seems to be expressly avoiding as much as possible. We've got indian weapons, egyptian weapons, middle eastern weapons, norse weapons... and no katana. I'm thinking that it may be an intentional decision at this point, made somewhere after the inclusion of the shuriken and before the elimination of the ki power source.
Katana = Longsword.
Right. Because the katana is just a regular sword with asian flavor. But a khopesh? My word, that deserves its own stat line.
Sorry to get all sarcastic about this. But seriously, we have a very, very fine degree of granularity with weapon options. Lets just look at swords- not heavy blades, just swords. We have short swords, longswords, broad swords, bastard swords, greatswords, and fullblades, just to cover the basic european options. Then we have scimitars and falchion and khopesh, to start on the real world non european swords. And then there's the imaginary ethnic weapons, like the talenta tangat, and drow long knife. And the just plain silly, like the double sword and double scimitar.
Catch all that? 13 swords.
And yet no katana. Because apparently it would be just the same as a sword that already exists. Unlike the longsword and broadsword and bastard sword and greatsword, which are very different indeed. Each is slightly different than the others in length!
So I'm figuring that any ninja will either never happen, or will happen after Adventurer's Vault X, the one where they finally include some asian themed weapons. I'm currently leaning towards "never gonna happen," because the moment you hear one of the main designers of 4e talking about how they scrubbed the asian flavor out of the monk, you have to figure the ninja is dead in the water.
So it is! Still, even if they don't actually use the name "Illusionist" for the class, I still think Shadow will include at least one "caster-type" class that's heavily illusion-based, because illusions were mentioned as one of the core concepts of the Shadow power source when it was first revealed to us. I think that Controller is the natural role for such an illusion-based class.
(It wouldn't be the first time we've seen redundant names if they called it an Illusionist, anyway; we've got an Assassin class, as well as a multiclass-only class called "assassin" and a "Shadow Assassin" paragon path for the Rogue; we've also got an Avenger class, an "Avenging Paladin" build in PH1, and a Cleric paragon path called "Angelic Avenger". These are just the examples off the top of my head. My point is that they could still use the name "Illusionist" for a class, despite the Wizard build.)
Fair enough. And good point. I would hope the avoid this high level of redundancy, but it is possible. And an Illusion based class is still very possible.
I would have prefered they'd avoided it, too. When we first heard that a PH2 class would be called "Avenger" I strongly thought we should rename it, on account of the example indicated above. I really didn't like that level of overlap.
But in time, I sorta got over it. If I could change the name of the Paladin build and Cleric PP, I would, but by now I'm comfortable with Avenger as a class name. It's not a good class name, but then neither is "Fighter", "Rogue", or "Barbarian", but those don't bug me none anymore either. So it goes, I guess...
I recall a few people tossing around suggestions of "Ninja as Elemental", and between that and Shadow and Martial, it's pretty obvious that the Ninja-concept was too nebulous for one class. (It also makes it pretty obvious why Ki had to go, too.) Add this to the handful of folks suggesting that Ninja should be Defenders or melee Controllers rather than Strikers, and the notion is even more muddled, all without even attempting to approach historical accuracy.
I don't thinks the problem was ever that the ninja was too nebulous a concept, rather that the very nature of speculation is nebulous to begin with. Prior to it's play test the barbarians role (defender or striker) was hotly debated. People are still debating whether the Necromancer should be a controller or leader, whether or not their should still be a shadow illusionist, and whether the Hexblade should be a defender or melee controller (or whether the shadow defender should instead be something like the black guard). Then there's the entirety of the elemental power source, a concept so nebulous that no ones manage to produce any particular viable speculation yet.For me the fact that the assassin fulfills the goals that most every one advocating ninja for shadow striker had is proof that the concept wasn't too nebulous. It my be a rose by a different name, but it still smells sweet.
Problem is that even though lots of folks wanted a (Shadow) Ninja that looks like the Assassin we've got now, lots of other folks wanted a (Martial) Ninja that was similar to but distinct from the Rogue. Some others wanted Elemental- or Ki-based Ninjas that employed a more varied selection of mystical abilities, similar to Naruto, to use one common example. And a few others said, "No Ninjas! They don't belong in D&D fantasy!" or "No Ninjas! We've already got the Rogue!"
The popular understanding of ninjas, especially among typical, modern westerners (ie: us) is very nebulous. There was never any strong consensus about what the Ninja class should be.
The connection between 'illusion' and 'death' that the Shadow-Shadowfell power source forced, bothers me.Shadow-Shadowfell owns darkness, yes. Shadow-walking ethereality, yes. Stealth, yes. Even shadowy ghostly forms, yes.
But illusion, requires telepathy, enchanting and deceiving the mind and the senses. Illusion themes belong to the Psionic power source.
I can live with the decision to marry Illusion to the Arcane power source. Especially, as Arcane themes overlap with Fey creatures, for who it is an appropriate archetype.
Somewhat true, but their is more to it. I've always thought there was room for 3 distinct types of illusionist in 4e.
- Arcane (mirages): Tricks of light and sound, they aren't real but they give the appearance of reality
- Psionic (figments): Images projected directly into the targets mind, they still aren't real but they seem real to the target.
- Shadow (shadowcraft): constructs of shadow, they aren't quite real, but the aren't entirely fake either. Illusionists of this third type would be based around the old 3e spells shadow evocation and shadow conjuration.
I agree, that's a good way to explain how different power sources can relate to similar effects. The nice thing is that in 4E, we don't have to worry about actually creating a different category of illusions in the rules for each type of illusion used in the game.
Right. Because the katana is just a regular sword with asian flavor. But a khopesh? My word, that deserves its own stat line.Sorry to get all sarcastic about this. But seriously, we have a very, very fine degree of granularity with weapon options. Lets just look at swords- not heavy blades, just swords. We have short swords, longswords, broad swords, bastard swords, greatswords, and fullblades, just to cover the basic european options. Then we have scimitars and falchion and khopesh, to start on the real world non european swords. And then there's the imaginary ethnic weapons, like the talenta tangat, and drow long knife. And the just plain silly, like the double sword and double scimitar.
Catch all that? 13 swords.
And yet no katana. Because apparently it would be just the same as a sword that already exists. Unlike the longsword and broadsword and bastard sword and greatsword, which are very different indeed. Each is slightly different than the others in length!
So I'm figuring that any ninja will either never happen, or will happen after Adventurer's Vault X, the one where they finally include some asian themed weapons. I'm currently leaning towards "never gonna happen," because the moment you hear one of the main designers of 4e talking about how they scrubbed the asian flavor out of the monk, you have to figure the ninja is dead in the water.
I like swords as much as the next guy, but I wish other weapons would get the same love. I also happen to agree with you that weapons have proliferated beyond what's probably useful for the game. (Blame EGG and his apparent infatuation with polearms.)
As for the non-Asian Monk, I don't think it's really had the Asian "scrubbed out of it" so much as it's been spun as culture-neutral. It's still pretty clearly an Asian-style Monk, it's just wearing clothes that wouldn't stand out as much on the streets of Greyhawk.
Problem is that even though lots of folks wanted a (Shadow) Ninja that looks like the Assassin we've got now, lots of other folks wanted a (Martial) Ninja that was similar to but distinct from the Rogue. Some others wanted Elemental- or Ki-based Ninjas that employed a more varied selection of mystical abilities, similar to Naruto, to use one common example. And a few others said, "No Ninjas! They don't belong in D&D fantasy!" or "No Ninjas! We've already got the Rogue!"The popular understanding of ninjas, especially among typical, modern westerners (ie: us) is very nebulous. There was never any strong consensus about what the Ninja class should be.
Maybe, but the ki ninja died with the power source, I don't recall any advocates of a martial ninja that didn't also say the rogue already sufficed, and the elemental ninja was a significant outlier (with the exception of Naruto there has been little to no western exposure to that kind of ninja). No ninja, rogue is ninja, and shadow ninja were by far the dominant opinions after ki was out of the picture.
I actually agree with this ...
Tharag: Somewhat true, but their is more to it. I've always thought there was room for 3 distinct types of illusionist in 4e.
- Arcane (mirages): Tricks of light and sound, they aren't real but they give the appearance of reality
- Psionic (figments): Images projected directly into the targets mind, they still aren't real but they seem real to the target.
- Shadow (shadowcraft): constructs of shadow, they aren't quite real, but the aren't entirely fake either. Illusionists of this third type would be based around the old 3e spells shadow evocation and shadow conjuration.
Its just, Id prefer 'shadow constructs' appear bleak and gloomy, like Shadowfell does.
It seems wrong for the Shadow power source to create constructs that are bright, lifelike, and convincing. By contrast, an Illusionist should produce these vivid effects.
Also, with regard to the Psionic power source, while telepathy can implant 'phantasms' directly into the mind, telekinesis can create 'force constructs', that manipulate light and force to create 'mirages' with luminosity and substantiality to back them up.
Actually, Katana = Bastard Sword. They may not be shaped the same way in the artwork, but they're the same thing - can be wielded with two hands to deal more damage.
Isn't a longsword also versatile?
True, but in 3.xE the Katana really was just a renamed Bastard Sword.
a masterwork bastard swor if irc
Forget I said anything about the katana. I don't want to derail the thread.
Suffice to say, my list is:
Shadowcaster as controller
Necromancer as leader
Hexblade as defender
And no ninja because I think that the plans for everything remotely asian have been so derailed at this point that we really shouldn't expect them. We've got a monk that can't wield nunchaku, and as far as we can tell, that's an intentional design choice. I don't expect a ninja.
Forget I said anything about the katana. I don't want to derail the thread.
Suffice to say, my list is:
Shadowcaster as controller
Necromancer as leader
Hexblade as defender
And no ninja because I think that the plans for everything remotely asian have been so derailed at this point that we really shouldn't expect them. We've got a monk that can't wield nunchaku, and as far as we can tell, that's an intentional design choice. I don't expect a ninja.
Also the Ninja is pretty much the Assassin.
Your list is exactly the same as mine. Hurrah!