Don't buy the negative hype.
Here are some observations:
1. The class was fun to play, especially the Spirit Companion. Its a conjuration, so it doesn't provoke opportunity attacks, so you're free to move it anywhere. Its really fun in a tactical sense to place the companion in the most advantageous place every turn, especially since so much of the class is based off of it. There are also more advanced tricks, like moving the companion next to two allies to boost a double heal, and then hitting with Wrath of Winter and teleporting the spirit next to an enemy.
2. Its worth noting that only ranged and melee attacks can affect the companion. Close and Area attacks do not affect it.
3. We only have three levels of this class, but on the surface it deals more damage than any other class from the leader role. It has two implement at-wills that deal 1d10+Wis. The Encounter and Daily powers available also hit harder(I had Twin Panthers and Winter's Wrath) than what are available to other Leader role characters. I definitely felt that I had more firepower compared to other party members than I've ever seen a Leader role class wield.
4. Healing Spirit splitting things between two characters is... interesting. Working the Spirit Companion into things so you get them both next to it helps a lot. I have to see how this works in the long run to get a real sense. It was nice to give a small boost to two allies every time I used this, but at the same time it doesn't do the big heals of a Cleric's Healing Word.
5. Wrath of the Spirit World is possibly one of the most devastating Lv1 Dailies I've seen. Its a close burst 2 combined with a close burst 1, dealing 3d6+Wis plus prone. I was able to use this in two battles(on different days in the course of the adventure), and was able to accomplish some big nukes with this thanks to making two separate bursts.
Overall, though, I've enjoyed the class. I look forward to the full write-up.
Did you play a Bear or Panther Shaman?
Elf Bear Shaman, though strangely enough I took the Panther Shaman encounter power.
As for the companion, any attacks it took generally came for there being no other real target. We had a Warden with the Form of Winter's Wrath Daily. Two of the three battles we fought had the Warden using this power(we had an extended rest), which creates difficult terrain in a two square burst around the Warden. With the inability of enemies to shift thanks to the Warden, I was able to place the companion where it was the only target and could attack something that tried to move away. I also on occasion used the companion on turn 1 by summoning it adjacent to two melee enemies while we charged different enemies, which generally got us either free attacks or forced the melee enemies to waste a turn getting to us. Other than using the companion in agressive and defensive manners as I have described, it really didn't get any serious attacks against it.
The point is, that while the Spirit Companion is not a full character, there is a lot you can do with it. It isn't earth shattering, but it adds up, especially in the Warlock-style being a pest and hassle the enemies manner. You're not dealing 1d8+5 damage with it outside of your own powers, but you can place it next to enemies where it gets what are essentially opportunity attacks, which limit options/impose consequences, and you can place it next to allies you want to give a boost to. You have to be aggressive and tactical to get the most out of it. It doesn't do a whole lot, so you have to take care to place it where it will help your allies the most or hassle the enemies the msot. Preferably both at the same time.
Its a conjuration, so it doesn't provoke opportunity attacks, so you're free to move it anywhere.
Hey...can you point to where this is laid out in the rules? I'm not clear that this is the case, especially if it can be targeted by melee attacks.
Thanks!
Hey...can you point to where this is laid out in the rules? I'm not clear that this is the case, especially if it can be targeted by melee attacks.
Thanks!
Klobbermeister - your such a killjoy
I am very curious about this as well - the current rules don't specifically say it can't be targeted by opportunity attacks - and the rules also don't say anything about the spirit being able to shift and avoid drawing opportunity attacks.
By the most draconic DM ruling (draws opportunity attacks yet can' shift) the spirit would rarely be able to move without drawing opportunity attacks. This would really limit the tactical abilities of the shaman class.
When you take a move action, you can also move the spirit a number of squares equal to your speed. The spirit can be targeted by melee or ranged attacks, although it lacks hit points.
Conjurations normally can't be attacked. The fact that it can be targetted by melee or ranged attacks is the exception in the exception based design. Conjurations don't normally provoke, and there is no exception for that.
It can be attacked. It can move. Things that can attack and move can be attacked with special attacks that occur when they move.
WOTC isn't absolutely perfect on this, but usually when a counterintuitive outcome is intended, they say so. It would be counterintuitive for the spirit to be targetable, be able to commit the actions that trigger OAs, and yet not be subjected to OAs. I think they'd say something if that were the case.
It is moved as opposed to moving on its own. Thus it is unaffected by terrain (or intervening creatures). It doesn't make checks. It doesn't have its own senses.
Contrast this with how summons work. The summon is treated as an allied creature. It is therefor an enemy to your enemies. It has a speed and can move. It can provoke, flank, and make checks. It has its own senses.
No a conjuration doesn't provoke. It isn't an "enemy" to monsters, anymore than it is an ally to the PCs.
So then, by this reasoning, it doesn't provide flanking nor does it receive a bonus from having an "ally" in a flanking position. Correct?
I would have to rule that it doesn't provoke, because by the letter of what is written, it doesn't move. You move it. The notable text is:
When you take a move action, you can also move the spirit a number of squares equal to your speed. The spirit can be targeted by melee or ranged attacks, although it lacks hit points.
I can buy that. Is the corrolary, then, that (by the letter of what is written) it can't shift, because "you move the spirit a number of squares..."?
So then, by this reasoning, it doesn't provide flanking nor does it receive a bonus from having an "ally" in a flanking position. Correct?
The rules clearly state that the spirit does not provide flanking. However - there is at least one power where if the spirit hits it can provide flanking to your allies until the end of your next turn.
As far as the spirit being able to benifit from a flanking ally, I don't see why it shouldn't. The ally is threatening the target - it has nothing to do with the spirit and the shaman is commanding the spirit to make a melee attack.
It does have defenses though: a conjuration uses its creator's defenses when attacked.
But the Shaman could simply dismiss it and then resummon it in another location as both actions are minor (trade a move down).
It certainly can.
However, I think that the argument would be "if a Spirit can move, than it can shift, and I don't have to give up my Shaman's movement". So, by unsummoning and re-summoning, the Shaman is effectively giving up an action that some would argue it doesn't need to do.
The rules clearly state that the spirit does not provide flanking. However - there is at least one power where if the spirit hits it can provide flanking to your allies until the end of your next turn.
As far as the spirit being able to benifit from a flanking ally, I don't see why it shouldn't. The ally is threatening the target - it has nothing to do with the spirit and the shaman is commanding the spirit to make a melee attack.
Moribund was stating that it was neither an ally to your party nor an enemy to the monsters...I was trying to clarify that position.
Another counter argument to Moribund's take on it being neither an ally to the party nor an enemy to the monsters is the movement through it's space. Only allies can move through other allied creatures spaces. Enemies can't.
It seems that this movement rule doesn't fit with the "Neither ally nor enemy" position.
Moribund was stating that it was neither an ally to your party nor an enemy to the monsters...I was trying to clarify that position.
Another counter argument to Moribund's take on it being neither an ally to the party nor an enemy to the monsters is the movement through it's space. Only allies can move through other allied creatures spaces. Enemies can't.
It seems that this movement rule doesn't fit with the "Neither ally nor enemy" position.
That rule is specifically part of the Conjuration keyword, and is part of the Spirit Companions description. The Opportunity Attack description specifically describes that it affects enemies. A Conjuration is not considered an "enemy" so it isn't affected.
That rule is specifically part of the Conjuration keyword, and is part of the Spirit Companions description. The Opportunity Attack description specifically describes that it affects enemies. A Conjuration is not considered an "enemy" so it isn't affected.
I am not disputing the movement rules. Nor am I disputing the rules for OAs. These two rules are clear.
What is not clear is your position that a Conjuration is not considered an enemy.
I was using the movement rules for Conjurations to illustrate that your position is not at all clear, as moving through the Conjuration's square is *exactly* like moving through an ally's square.
The position that a Conjuration isn't an ally is nebulous at best, IMO.
I am not disputing the movement rules. Nor am I disputing the rules for OAs. These two rules are clear.
What is not clear is your position that a Conjuration is not considered an enemy.
I was using the movement rules for Conjurations to illustrate that your position is not at all clear, as moving through the Conjuration's square is *exactly* like moving through an ally's square.
The position that a Conjuration isn't an ally is nebulous at best, IMO.
I don't think its that nebulous, especially when you look at the summons rules. A summoned creature is specifically described as both an ally and a creature, and all rules that apply to those apply to the summon. A conjuration is described as(or at the very least implied as) not being a creature, and as having none of the things that generally apply to creatures affect it unless specifically stated.
I don't think its that nebulous, especially when you look at the summons rules. A summoned creature is specifically described as both an ally and a creature, and all rules that apply to those apply to the summon. A conjuration is described as(or at the very least implied as) not being a creature, and as having none of the things that generally apply to creatures affect it unless specifically stated.
Okay, accepting your position of "neither an ally nor an enemy" for a moment -
If a conjuration isn't considered an "ally" as per the rules, then it can neither provide nor receive flanking, correct? "To flank an enemy, you and an ally must be..."
((Keep talking everyone...I think I'm seeing multiple diverging viewpoints amongst the posters, and am trying to dissect the various points of view a bit, because this is going to have TONS of table variation...))
Okay, accepting your position of "neither an ally nor an enemy" for a moment -
If a conjuration isn't considered an "ally" as per the rules, then it can neither provide nor receive flanking, correct? "To flank an enemy, you and an ally must be..."
((Keep talking everyone...I think I'm seeing multiple diverging viewpoints amongst the posters, and am trying to dissect the various points of view a bit, because this is going to have TONS of table variation...))
A conjuration cannot provide flanking, and I would rule that it doesn't benefit from flanking either. One of the Shaman powers specifically states that an effect of the power is that the Spirit provides flanking until the end of your next turn where it did not before.
If a conjuration isn't considered an "ally" as per the rules, then it can neither provide nor receive flanking, correct? "To flank an enemy, you and an ally must be..."
Well...
The rules clearly state that the spirit does not provide flanking. However - there is at least one power where if the spirit hits it can provide flanking to your allies until the end of your next turn.
I don't think its that nebulous, especially when you look at the summons rules. A summoned creature is specifically described as both an ally and a creature, and all rules that apply to those apply to the summon. A conjuration is described as(or at the very least implied as) not being a creature, and as having none of the things that generally apply to creatures affect it unless specifically stated.
I find myself, more and more, having to reject the idea that a conjuration isn't an enemy of the monster. To use a power (minus area effects), you must target an enemy (PH, pg 272). Only targets which present a legitimate threat can be targeted (DMG, pg 40), otherwise the power won't work. Any power that targets a conjuration would indeed target an enemy or a creature (MM power descriptors)...
And, by the letter of the rules, since it can be targetted by attacks, it *is* an enemy. You can't have it both ways. It can't both be targetted by attacks and *not* be an enemy.
I understand the position that "it's not here nor there...it just is", but that holds for something like a Flaming Sphere which can't be attacked. Not so much for the Spirit, at least the way the rules are laid out.
Man, I wish the designers would have the foresight to see these issues coming down the line. Ugh.
Its exception based design. The fact that the Spirit Companion can be targetted by Ranged and Melee attack powers is an exception, and limited to that specific exception.
You are misquoting. A Spirit Companion "can be targetted by melee or ranged attacks", which include Basic and Opportunity Attacks. It's not merely restricted to attack powers. Therefore, the exception encompasses OAs.
anyway I can't wait to try this class out!
You are misquoting. A Spirit Companion "can be targetted by melee or ranged attacks", which include Basic and Opportunity Attacks. It's not merely restricted to attack powers. Therefore, the exception encompasses OAs.
The fact that it can be targetted does not mean that it provokes. Those two are not connected. It is my interpretation that the fact that a Conjuration is not a creature(aside from specific exceptions such as the fact that it can be targetted with Ranged and Melee attack powers) means that it does not provoke.
It is a grey area though. The core definition of a Conjuration states that they cannot be attacked. Within that definition, it isn't really relevant whether moving a Conjuration provokes, since it can't be attacked or affected in the first place. While not specifically stated, it is strongly implied that a Conjuration is not considered a creature, an enemy, or an ally, and does not do and is not affected by things that affect creatures/enemies/allies. The Spirit Companion's specific exception that it can be targetted by melee and ranged attacks in my interpretation doesn't extend beyond that specific exception, and does not apply to different situations where the Spirit would be considered a Conjuration and not a creature. This includes provoking.
Technically speaking, the Conjuration doesn't move. The Shaman moves, and in moving, the Conjuration is also moved.
I am not good at analyzing the rule framework (specific rule vs exception vs general vs etc.) - however - I would like to think that the developers wanted the shaman to be easily able to use and move the shaman on the battlefield.
- A spirit that can be easily moved, block enemies, never provokes opportunity attacks and is immune to area attackes seems a bit overpowered.
- On the other side, a spirit that cannot shift and provokes opportunity attacks would be extremely cumbersome for the shaman. Yes, you could spend a minor action to unsummon the spirit, a minor to resummon, then use your standard. Most of the shamans abilities have a range of 5, they can heal as a minor, and to take away all the shamans move and minor actions for moving the spirit sucks.
The spirit seems to be in a bit of a gray area that needs additional developer clarification... please?
Please all keep discussing
You are misquoting. A Spirit Companion "can be targetted by melee or ranged attacks", which include Basic and Opportunity Attacks. It's not merely restricted to attack powers. Therefore, the exception encompasses OAs.
A spirit companion could theoretically be targeted by an OA as an OA is a melee attack. However, the SC does not provoke an OA from leaving a square as it is not an enemy.
The fact that something can be targeted by attacks does not make that thing an enemy. Otherwise objects would be enemies and valiant strike would always hit.
As far as a SC benefiting from (as opposed to providing) flanking, I'd house rule/interpret that it could benefit because the shaman is the one making the attack and the other party is the shaman's ally. However, a strict reading would not allow it since the shaman does not actually occupy the square the attack originates from and the rules are written such that flanking either exists for both parties or neither.
(Huh, I did not realize flanking provided combat advantage for point-blank ranged attacks)
As far as a SC benefiting from (as opposed to providing) flanking, I'd house rule/interpret that it could benefit because the shaman is the one making the attack and the other party is the shaman's ally. However, a strict reading would not allow it since the shaman does not actually occupy the square the attack originates from and the rules are written such that flanking either exists for both parties or neither.
Someone pointed out earlier that, due to the power description of Stalker's Strike providing the exception to the norm, normally the SC doesn't flank at all, apparently neither receving nor providing combat advantage. It only does so, and apparently reciprocally, when that specific power is used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moribund
As far as a SC benefiting from (as opposed to providing) flanking, I'd house rule/interpret that it could benefit because the shaman is the one making the attack and the other party is the shaman's ally. However, a strict reading would not allow it since the shaman does not actually occupy the square the attack originates from and the rules are written such that flanking either exists for both parties or neither.
Someone pointed out earlier that, due to the power description of Stalker's Strike providing the exception to the norm, normally the SC doesn't flank at all, apparently neither receiving nor providing combat advantage. It only does so, and apparently reciprocally, when that specific power is used.
When the shaman uses a standard action to make the SC attack - the SC attack is described as "melee spirit 1". If the SC has an ally threatening the target on the other side it seems that the SC would benefit from the flanker in the instant it becomes hostile and attacks. Now - since the SC gives a boon to adjacent allies, and you will probably have to move the SC away from allies to get the flanking hit bonus - this will not be done all the time. Additionally, lots of the shamans abilities cause benefit to allies adjacent to the SC, or cause detriment to enemies adjacent to the SC.
Long story short - in most cases the overall positioning of the SC will be much more important than getting a slight attack bonus from a flanking ally. This is based on my "massive" experience of playing a 4e shaman twice.
There is also the consideration of rules as intended. I've played a Shaman in an actual game, and if moving the spirit provokes attacks, the class doesn't really function. The class is centered around the spirit being in the right place.
Except that a shaman can always spend two minor actions to put the spirit wherever he wants within 20 squares.
Except that a shaman can always spend two minor actions to put the spirit wherever he wants within 20 squares.
Which is more limiting as you can't use minor action powers including your primary healing, and you can't yourself move if you do this. That being said, using two minor actions to put it where ever is still useful when you want to move it beyond your normal movement.
Or leader players if they would be willing to spend two minor actions to teleport the groups defender like that. 2 minor actions isn't that bad.
And before anyone says "you need it to use your at-wills" well take the at-will that doesn't require your pet if it makes you feel better.
edit: That non-spirit at-will is a good bonus for human shaman too btw.
I heard Shaman have an At-Will Ranged Attack that on hit teleports their pet next to the target they attacked. >.>
It exists, it was one of the two I picked, and I really really like it. It even deals 1d10+wis damage.
I think he should get combat advantage, given that YOU as the shaman are technically using a power to attack the enemy from one side as your ally is on the other. Flanking provides this bonus because an enemy cannot efficiently focus on opposite sides of himself, so it seems likely that the enemy would still be flanked for purposes of the spirit's/shaman's attack, though not your ally's attack, since that is specific.
Make of that what you will.
Someone on another forum asked CS and got the reply that the Spirit does NOT draw OAs, but CAN be attacked by close and area attacks.
Make of that what you will.
link please?
As far as OA goes I would say. If OA attacks only enemies, and the conjuration is neither an enemy or an ally by definition, then OA does not effect it. If you may OA anybody you could basic attack, then the SC would be able to be hit by OA, IF it could provoke. I don't think being moved (as the SC is) provokes, otherwise wouldn't push pull and slide be that way?
Now for flanking, I know you need an ally on the opposing side. Once again, if the spirit companion is neither, it does not gain nor grant CA. If there is a specific time that it does because of any ability, then of course specific > general. But just because the SC grants combat advantage with a power, doesn't mean it gains combat advantage as well.
link please?
Shaman questions.
Okay, first, we have the default rules of conjurations not being affected by any attacks, so thats Area, Close, Burst, Blast, Ranged, Melee. So we cross those out.
Now, Call of the Spirit specifically says it is affected by Melee and Ranged attacks. Those does not automatically transfer to the others. It provides an except JUST for those two.
If you have a list of 10 items that are banned, and then exceptions are made for two of them, it does not automatically unban everything else. Not even in 4e.
That means that the SC is immune to: Area, Burst, Close, and Blast attacks. Someone should post over there, smacking their heads for stupidity. Basically it looks like someone interpreted in such a way so as to make the Druid suck(bias), and then everyone else agreed with them. But they are /wrong/.