@mrpopstar): http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pr/20090105I'm torn between which power source Shugenja would draw from, as Primal seems to fit thematically (except that Shugenja are generally civilized nobles) while Elemental (hypothetically) seems to fit aesthetically.
I'm also wondering if the new Shaman class will be a good representation of Shugenja or if something more Avatar-like (perhaps even a specifically named Shugenja class) awaits us with the Elemental power source.
Any thoughts on the distinction(s) between Primal and Elemental and how the two power sources relate to the Shugenja? Please share!
Since the shugenja's powers have typically been split into air, earth, water, and fire, my money's on elemental. All the primal stuff seems more animal-like.
Animal-like or weather-/natural-disaster-like. :P
But yes, I totally agree with your assessment.
What's very interesting about the Shugenja, though, is they will have to be multi-roled if they're going to accurately portray how the Shugenja has typically been seen. Water magic lends itself more towards the Leader role, Air magic lends itself more towards the Striker role, Fire magic lends itself more towards the Controller role (though AoEs), and Earth magic lends itself more towards the Defender role. Since they decided against letting the Druid be multi-roled, I suspect the Shugenja will be split into a separate class for each element, closing up the elemental power source with 4 classes where there used to be one.
In fact, that's how I want to design the magic classes for my setting, if I want to put my players through all that relearning.
I agree that Shugenja would be a prime candidate for elemental source. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Shugenja might end up being Ki powered.
I think Wizards is over the "Ki = Asian" thing now. Shugenja screams Elemental, and just because it was in Oriental Adventures doesn't mean that Wizards will ignore that. I think Ki will be similar to incarnum and other spirit-based powers, and that would include the monk's mastery of their own lifeforce. Shugenjas don't channel a mystical, inner power, they use elemental powers.
I still don't like Ki = Asian in so far as names are concerned. Monk is an English word, and I believe that is one of the things that allows it to be applied to different character types. Samurai, though, instantly conjures a character, as does Ninja. If Samurai were called Swordsaint, or some other name in English, I believe we'd have the capacity to imagine samurai without katanas and Japanese armor (or gis), and get unique things like axe wielding dwarven samurai.
But Shugenja is not ki. Nothing in their description says their magic comes from within; it is totally their influence and relationship with elemental spirits.
The Shugenja is probably a good candidate for leader still, even with all four of its traditional elements. Earth would be defensive buffs, water would be healing, air would be tactical movement buffs, and fire would be offensive buffs. They'd be a leader with a controller or striker bent to some of their powers, probably depending on their element or school focus. The only real issue I see is that in the past, fire shugenja could not use water and so couldn't heal.
On the elemental side, I too was thinking of shugenja as leaders, with enhancements to powers based on your build or elemental focus (paralleling the way warlock pacts are set up). I also ran into the same problem for fire shugenja, though, which lead me to consider shugenja as base controllers. Really though there isn't necessarily a need to restrict player choice mechanically; warlocks can still choose powers from other pacts, for example, though it may seem odd in game.
However, if I had to choose one role only for shugenja, because they are "priests" I'd go with leader, secondary controller. Most powers would be support of some type, kinda like you mention above (fire also has precedent for improving initiative, speed, etc.), and the dash of secondary-controller powers would be the very spell-y, arcane-y type effects (castle of water, murmur of earth, mirage arcana, fireball, etc.).
On the primal side, it's definitely all the animistic stuff that is jumping out at me. For example, say the shaman picks a type of spirit guide in the manner a warlock chooses a pact. You might focus on ancestor, animal, or nature (rivers, trees, mountains, etc.) spirits. A nature spirit shaman who speaks with river and ocean spirits and is granted powers and boons by them sounds like a fine water shugenja to me. Same with a sun or volcano nature spirit shaman for a fire shugenja, a mountain or cave nature spirit shaman for an earth shugenja, or a wind nature spirit shaman for an air shugenja. And what about an ancestor spirit shaman for a sodan-senzo??
The above might seem to be a redrawing of the class, but is it really? In my mind I keep wondering which take (the elemental or the primal) is closer to the "true" shugenja. Isn't the simple elemental divide a bit superficial and simplistic when enforced mechanically, or is historical accuracy over-complicating things?
Anyway, off to bed for me, and to the airport tomorrow morning. Oh, what would I give for some Unicorn travel magic!
Wow! Lots of interesting ideas here. Seems like elemental is heavily favored. Thanks for posting, everyone. I have to rest for travel tomorrow, but I did want to reply at least a little.
On the elemental side, I too was thinking of shugenja as leaders, with enhancements to powers based on your build or elemental focus (paralleling the way warlock pacts are set up). I also ran into the same problem for fire shugenja, though, which lead me to consider shugenja as base controllers. Really though there isn't necessarily a need to restrict player choice mechanically; warlocks can still choose powers from other pacts, for example, though it may seem odd in game.
However, if I had to choose one role only for shugenja, because they are "priests" I'd go with leader, secondary controller. Most powers would be support of some type, kinda like you mention above (fire also has precedent for improving initiative, speed, etc.), and the dash of secondary-controller powers would be the very spell-y, arcane-y type effects (castle of water, murmur of earth, mirage arcana, fireball, etc.).
On the primal side, it's definitely all the animistic stuff that is jumping out at me. For example, say the shaman picks a type of spirit guide in the manner a warlock chooses a pact. You might focus on ancestor, animal, or nature (rivers, trees, mountains, etc.) spirits. A nature spirit shaman who speaks with river and ocean spirits and is granted powers and boons by them sounds like a fine water shugenja to me. Same with a sun or volcano nature spirit shaman for a fire shugenja, a mountain or cave nature spirit shaman for an earth shugenja, or a wind nature spirit shaman for an air shugenja. And what about an ancestor spirit shaman for a sodan-senzo??
The above might seem to be a redrawing of the class, but is it really? In my mind I keep wondering which take (the elemental or the primal) is closer to the "true" shugenja. Isn't the simple elemental divide a bit superficial and simplistic when enforced mechanically, or is historical accuracy over-complicating things?
Anyway, off to bed for me, and to the airport tomorrow morning. Oh, what would I give for some Unicorn travel magic!
Assuming you would prefer your Shugenja Primal over Elemental, you can always refluff it from direct elemental powers to 'elemental spirits'. The end result would likely be the same. I don't know what a 'sodan-senzo' is, so cannot comment thereon.
As always, I question the legitimacy of 'historical accuracy' when dealing with things that are mythological. Ultimately, WotC will do what they do; any connections to the actual myths are largely irrelevant. The Shugenja will more likely resemble the more Westernized Complete Divine version over the L5R version.
Assuming you would prefer your Shugenja Primal over Elemental, you can always refluff it from direct elemental powers to 'elemental spirits'. The end result would likely be the same.
Shugenja do, actually deal in 'Elemental Spirits', as opposed to direct powers.
I don't know what a 'sodan-senzo' is, so cannot comment thereon.
Ancestor Channeler.
As always, I question the legitimacy of 'historical accuracy' when dealing with things that are mythological. Ultimately, WotC will do what they do; any connections to the actual myths are largely irrelevant. The Shugenja will more likely resemble the more Westernized Complete Divine version over the L5R version.
I'm surprised that no-one has suggested shugenja use the Divine power source. After all, they are Priests.
Anyway, I hope that the Shugenja (and any other OA material that make a comback) does get it's own, 4e D&D flavor, and is seperated from the L5R flavor, because that flavor is entirely counter to the themes of the new setting. Also, though I love the L5R setting, I would really like to see some other takes on the oriental fantasy element. (Bonus points to the maker of Mahasarpa 4E).
This thread also seems relevant:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1122457&highlight=dujuns+dragons
The only classes in OA that really scream Ki are the Monk, Samurai, and Ninja, and maybe Sohei
I agree with Monk (Ki Striker) and the Sohei (Ki Defender), but I would like to see the Ninja (maybe a shadow striker…?) and Samurai as Paragon Paths if anything.
I see the Wu-Jen as the Elemental Controller.
Shugenja do, actually deal in 'Elemental Spirits', as opposed to direct powers.
True, but the difference between 'I cast a fireball' and 'I summon a fire spirit to throw itself over there and explode' is pure fluff. For that matter, you could probably play a wizard or shaman or a number of other classes and just call yourself a shugenja.
Ancestor Channeler.
Sounds more like a Shaman to me, but I'm hardly an expert.
I'm surprised that no-one has suggested shugenja use the Divine power source. After all, they are Priests.
I probably would have, as a) I'm still not entirely sold on the need for power sources beyond martial, arcane, divine and psionic and b) I don't care enough about the shugenja or anything else Oriental to concern myself with the difference.
Anyway, I hope that the Shugenja (and any other OA material that make a comback) does get it's own, 4e D&D flavor, and is seperated from the L5R flavor, because that flavor is entirely counter to the themes of the new setting. Also, though I love the L5R setting, I would really like to see some other takes on the oriental fantasy element. (Bonus points to the maker of Mahasarpa 4E).
Since the IP for Rokugan has reverted to AEG for some time, there will definitely not be a Rokugan 4e unless AEG prints it under the GSL (and that seems rather unlikely).
I agree with Monk (Ki Striker) and the Sohei (Ki Defender), but I would like to see the Ninja (maybe a shadow striker…?) and Samurai as Paragon Paths if anything.
I see the Wu-Jen as the Elemental Controller.
I really like the idea of Wu-Jen as Ki since, unless I'm mistaken, the wu-jen is supposed to represent the wizards of wuxia. And in wuxia stories wizards always called upon the same power as martial artists / kung-fu masters (Ki).
But then again, wuxia-style wizards/witches were also usually accomplished martial artists/ki-manipulators before becoming wizards. I would love to see that worked into 4e somehow.
Shugenja and wu jen (+ shi´ar) have to be elemental.
I really like the idea of Wu-Jen as Ki since, unless I'm mistaken, the wu-jen is supposed to represent the wizards of wuxia. And in wuxia stories wizards always called upon the same power as martial artists / kung-fu masters (Ki).
Well, what it's 'supposed' to represent is nebulous. Traditionally (which means we can't guarantee it'll stay that way), wu jen spells were subdivided into elemental categories. Any mention of Ki was tangential at best.
But then again, wuxia-style wizards/witches were also usually accomplished martial artists/ki-manipulators before becoming wizards. I would love to see that worked into 4e somehow.
That would be 'multiclass with Monk'.
I'm surprised that no-one has suggested shugenja use the Divine power source. After all, they are Priests.
I did suggest it at one point. Not that it's going to happen now, but I would have been cool with such an arrangement.
Well, what it's 'supposed' to represent is nebulous. Traditionally (which means we can't guarantee it'll stay that way), wu jen spells were subdivided into elemental categories. Any mention of Ki was tangential at best.
Hear, hear!
One thing to keep in mind. Divine is tied to the Astral Plane and the gods, and Primal is tied to the material world and nature spirits; it makes sense that "elemental" as a power source won't be strictly "earth, air, fire, water", but rather a connection to the elemental chaos and the primordials. Shugenja are very societally tied, considering how opposed the primordials seem to be to current civilization, I don't know if such a tie will be appropriate.
Remove any mention of the planes and this explanation becomes perfect! You're on the ball, but trying to explicitly tie the power sources to the planes will ultimately prove itself to be an exercise in futility.
Hear, hear!
Remove any mention of the planes and this explanation becomes perfect! You're on the ball, but trying to explicitly tie the power sources to the planes will ultimately prove itself to be an exercise in futility.
That's very true, but I don't think it will be ALL the power sources, merely some of them. Martial and Ki certainly won't, and I doubt Psionics will (unless it's the Far Realm!) Arcane seems to be the power source that comes from everywhere, like an underlying magnetic field of the universe based on the power of knowledge and ideas, a power that isn't tapped into, but manipulated.
Shugenja do, actually deal in 'Elemental Spirits', as opposed to direct powers.
Yes. Shugenja often might appear Avatar-esque, but their powers come from importuning the kami--or nature and elemental spirits. Also, the kami are not flatly "elemental," per se, in the same sense that wizard powers are "elemental." Each type of kami has its own type of fragment or quasi-personality type beyond simply being sentient elemental energy or something.
True, but the difference between 'I cast a fireball' and 'I summon a fire spirit to throw itself over there and explode' is pure fluff. For that matter, you could probably play a wizard or shaman or a number of other classes and just call yourself a shugenja.
Good point, and it can apply to my previous words in this post. It kind of brings us back to the beginning, though, because the thread doesn't assume the shugenja will have its own base class. Additionally, distinctions such as this don't always equal just fluff. Wizards are studious and collect arcane lore, and thus can choose from multiple dailies recorded in their spellbook. A particular wizard may be a bit less studious, but would mechanically still have extra dailies. Or, a warlock might be studious, but wouldn't get multiple dailies like a wizard.
Maybe another way to ask the question would be: "Which shugenja fluff (the propitiating of nature spirits or the manifestation of elemental phenomena) should be the primary subject for interpreting into mechanics?"
One thing to keep in mind. Divine is tied to the Astral Plane and the gods, and Primal is tied to the material world and nature spirits; it makes sense that "elemental" as a power source won't be strictly "earth, air, fire, water", but rather a connection to the elemental chaos and the primordials. Shugenja are very societally tied, considering how opposed the primordials seem to be to current civilization, I don't know if such a tie will be appropriate.
I liked this post. What exactly are the goals of the 4e core Primordials again? Are they necessarily bent on destroying the world or simply edging the deities out of it?
I liked this post. What exactly are the goals of the 4e core Primordials again? Are they necessarily bent on destroying the world or simply edging the deities out of it?
Their original goal was to destroy the world so that they could create it again.....so they could destroy it again, and rebuild it once more in an eternal cycle. Then they wanted to remove the permenancy that the dieties brought into the world. And finally they now desire revenge on the dieites themselves for the defeat and imprisonments/banishments/punishments they suffered.
Incidently, I don't think that the elemental classes need to have any tie to the primoridals. Perhaps one class and a handful of paragon paths and epic destinies, but the big thing to remember is that the primordials can't really do much anymore. The majority of them(ignoring corrupted ones) are either banished or dead. The few that aren't are hiding so the gods don't come down to smite them. That hardly sounds like a group that would be able to actively empower a large number of classes. I think the elemental classes will probably focus more on utilizing the building blocks of the universe and forcing the eternal cycle along its path then it will on primordials themselves.
This discussion shows that making power sources around effects doesn't really work. The 4 power sources we've seen so far are built around concepts, and those concepts include where the power comes from (body, formula, gods, spirits). An elemental power source is going to step on primal's toes, because generally elemental power is spiritual to some degree (even the typically arcane Wu Jen has to abide by taboos, which makes it feel like there's something spiritual to their power).
Making a distinction between Primal and Divine classes, though, doesn't seem to work well within animistic societies. From my understanding of animist mythologies, there are often greatly powerful spirits that are worshiped as deities, but everything is either an aspect of nature or an ancestral spirit. In these mythologies, there would be no separation between Divine and Primal. I believe the separation created for D&D works, but it's going to make the spiritual world crowded for an elemental power source.
Didn't the Sohei have Divine magic just so it could have healing spells? If so, I don't see any reason to make it Divine again.
The Sohei had Divine magic because they are the protectors of temples and monasteries, where priests and monks live. They're "warrior monks", trained from those who were more martial and less spiritually inclined. In my opinion, they're really an "eastern paladin or templar".
That's very true, but I don't think it will be ALL the power sources, merely some of them. Martial and Ki certainly won't, and I doubt Psionics will (unless it's the Far Realm!) Arcane seems to be the power source that comes from everywhere, like an underlying magnetic field of the universe based on the power of knowledge and ideas, a power that isn't tapped into, but manipulated.
I can agree with this. One of the problems with tying power sources to various planes is that it begs the question, "Do my _____ powers work differently (better? worse?) when I'm on another plane?" 4E assumes the answer is "No", because it's simpler this way.
When you talk about Arcane being a "power source that comes from everywhere", I think you're right on; however, instead of just Arcane, I'd say that this is true of every power source (with some being more common or more visible than others).
I'm going to go one step further. Rather than the power sources drawing power from the planes, I'm going to suggest that the planes were created from the power sources. Every power source flows everywhere, but certain planes reflect a specific power source more vividly than the others. In essence, the power sources are the creation forces of the universe, and are the same powers that the gods and primordials themselves used to create the multiverse.
Didn't the Sohei have Divine magic just so it could have healing spells? If so, I don't see any reason to make it Divine again.
I agree. It also had a 'ki frenzy' ability, which put it in the running for 'worst designed class evar', since you couldn't cast spells in the ki frenzy.
An elemental power source is going to step on primal's toes, because generally elemental power is spiritual to some degree
So you are saying that the Great Bear is the source of fire in the universe?....or something like that?
Other then magic which calls lightning, there really shouldn't any overlap between the elemental and primal power sources. If elemental is going to overlap with anything it will be arcane.
I can agree with this. One of the problems with tying power sources to various planes is that it begs the question, "Do my _____ powers work differently (better? worse?) when I'm on another plane?" 4E assumes the answer is "No", because it's simpler this way.
When you talk about Arcane being a "power source that comes from everywhere", I think you're right on; however, instead of just Arcane, I'd say that this is true of every power source (with some being more common or more visible than others).
I'm going to go one step further. Rather than the power sources drawing power from the planes, I'm going to suggest that the planes were created from the power sources. Every power source flows everywhere, but certain planes reflect a specific power source more vividly than the others. In essence, the power sources are the creation forces of the universe, and are the same powers that the gods and primordials themselves used to create the multiverse.
Eh that is certainly one way to view power sources' relations with the planes. Although personally I would go with the energies used for the power sources are more plentiful on certain planes(arcane=feywild, divine=astral sea, elemental=elemental chaos, shadow=shadowfell, and primal=the world) making praticiners of those arts more common on those planes.
[indent]
Check out the intro to the Primal power source at the bottom of the January & Beyond article (hat's off@mrpopstar):
Ah, cool! Thanks!I'm torn between which power source Shugenja would draw from, as Primal seems to fit thematically (except that Shugenja are generally civilized nobles) while Elemental (hypothetically) seems to fit aesthetically.
I'm also wondering if the new Shaman class will be a good representation of Shugenja or if something more Avatar-like (perhaps even a specifically named Shugenja class) awaits us with the Elemental power source.
Any thoughts on the distinction(s) between Primal and Elemental and how the two power sources relate to the Shugenja? Please share!
Perhaps Shugenja will be a Shaman paragon path?
The [Primal] power source is pertinent to the spirits of nature, as has been described by designers and sneak peaks. Primal heroes embody the wrath, savagery, and ruthlessness of nature, undergo transformation into beasts, storms, flora, and generally represent the "treehugger"-type hero. In contrast, I predict the [Elemental] power source... I have no idea really. It seems kind of redundant to me at this time, but I trust the designers have something awesome up their sleeves. Maybe elemental heroes will be fueled by basic elements (like fire, water, earth, air), taking on the shape of elementals, focusing on elemental summons, infusing weapons with raw elemental energy, etc. They might be so diverse as to focus on single elemental energy types throughout their career... but who knows. We can bet Psionic, Ki, and Shadow will be on their way much sooner, so I can wet my appetite with those before I get into much suspense over Elemental.
[indent]
Other then magic which calls lightning, there really shouldn't any overlap between the elemental and primal power sources. If elemental is going to overlap with anything it will be arcane.
I agree.[/indent]
So you are saying that the Great Bear is the source of fire in the universe?....or something like that?
Other then magic which calls lightning, there really shouldn't any overlap between the elemental and primal power sources. If elemental is going to overlap with anything it will be arcane.
Potentially very true. See, I'm still stuck thinking about the old druid, who had spells like produce flame, flame strike, fire seeds. fire storm, and various other water, wind, and earth tied spells. If they stick to plants and weather, then there would be a difference.
Eh that is certainly one way to view power sources' relations with the planes. Although personally I would go with the energies used for the power sources are more plentiful on certain planes(arcane=feywild, divine=astral sea, elemental=elemental chaos, shadow=shadowfell, and primal=the world) making praticiners of those arts more common on those planes.
Sure, that completely fits with what I was trying to suggest. The important part is that it's clear that no power source dominates over the others on any given plane. Frequency of power source is just one way of representing that.
As far as I'm concerned, the power sources are even more fundamental, more basic to existence than the planes are.
If Samurai were called Swordsaint, or some other name in English, I believe we'd have the capacity to imagine samurai without katanas and Japanese armor (or gis), and get unique things like axe wielding dwarven samurai.
Which would be cool.
the Ninja (maybe a shadow striker…?)
I'd like to see the Ninja beat up the Shadowdancer and take it's stuff, because Shadow fits the Ninja more than Ki does.
I'm going to suggest that the planes were created from the power sources.
Except Martial, Ki and (arguably) Psionic don't fit with the "power sources made everything" theme. They're all internal, rather than the others which are external. Otherwise it makes sense.
Interestingly Enough, these three create their own trinity: Mind, Body, and Spirit. I like that, a lot.
Martial, Ki, and Psionic.
Interestingly Enough, these three create their own trinity: Mind, Body, and Spirit. I like that, a lot.
That's actually really cool
So, what will be the deal with the PHB V?
Since the shugenja's powers have typically been split into air, earth, water, and fire, my money's on elemental. All the primal stuff seems more animal-like.
oh I agree it along with the wu-jen are elementalists.
Samurai and monk are ki
and the ninja, well that will be up for debate with somone else as I dont have the patience for it.
Samurai and monk are ki
The monk is all but confirmed as a Ki Striker, but I see the Samurai as Martial (fighter or warlord with a samurai paragon path).
I could see the Sohei being a Ki Defender.
I of course don't want the Ki power source to be a catch-all for all Asian/Oriental classes.
The Sohei had Divine magic because they are the protectors of temples and monasteries, where priests and monks live. They're "warrior monks", trained from those who were more martial and less spiritually inclined. In my opinion, they're really an "eastern paladin or templar".
Ah. I confess I never really 'got' the Sohei before.
Yeah, the sources seem like where the power is drawn from. If you make a concession and say Arcane comes from Feywild, then Shadow comes from Shadowfell, Divine comes from Astral Sea, Elemental from Elemental Chaos, Primal from "The World", then you're left with Martial, Ki, and Psionic.
Interestingly Enough, these three create their own trinity: Mind, Body, and Spirit. I like that, a lot.
Yea, that's pretty full of win, right there.
Yeah, the sources seem like where the power is drawn from. If you make a concession and say Arcane comes from Feywild, then Shadow comes from Shadowfell, Divine comes from Astral Sea, Elemental from Elemental Chaos, Primal from "The World", then you're left with Martial, Ki, and Psionic.
Interestingly Enough, these three create their own trinity: Mind, Body, and Spirit. I like that, a lot.
Hey all, just wanted to say that the idea of mind, body, and spirit (Psionics, Martial, and Ki) being the sources of sentience, and the rest being the sources of the world itself is a really good idea.
Also, if you ignore L5R (which I like others here loved), Shugenja really do make sense as ki power base, though there is sufficient impetus for primal as well.
As explained at Wikipedia (which I recognize as a haphazard source of information at best):
Shugendō literally means "the path of training and testing." It centers on an ascetic, mountain-dwelling lifestyle and incorporates teachings from Koshintō, Buddhism and other eastern philosophies including folk animism. Shugendo practitioners are the most direct lineage descendants of the ancient hijiri of the eight and ninth centuries. The focus or goal of shugendō is the development of spiritual experience and power.
One term, shugenja (修験者), is derived from the term "shugendō" much as "Buddhist" describes a follower of Buddha or Christian a follower of Christ, though the term centers on an idea as opposed to a person.
The other term, yamabushi (山伏), means "one who lies in the mountains". Supernatural creatures often appeared as yamabushi in Japanese myths and folklore, as is evident in the legendary monk warrior Saito Musashibo Benkei and the deity Sojobo, king of the tengu (mountain spirits).
So what are everyone's thoughts on how it could be made 4E and retain a bit of historical flavor, but not necessarily oriental in nature.
However, I could just as easily see the elementalist as an Elemental Striker, which would work similarly to the warlock except it uses elemental affinities in place of pacts. For instance, a water elementalist would have a secondary leader role, while an earth elementalist would have a secondary defender or controller role, depending on his focus. Fire and air elementalists would be the purest 'striker' builds, focusing on raw damage and mobility, respectively. A future Elemental Power book may expand on these and/or add additional elements like Wood, Metal, and Thunder.
So, the elemental source might look like this:
Defender: ?
Striker: Elementalist
Leader: Shugenja
Controller: Wu Jen/Sha'ir (one of these might get absorbed into another class)
As an aside, I really hope the the shugenja (and all the OA stuff) shows up in a campaign setting style book, personally I like my fantasy pseudoeuropean and don't much need ninjas, samurai and shugenjas running around. I think they are very fun to play, in the appropriate setting (big L5R fan) but I would rather that they remain seperate, or at least very optional. And I do not consider PHBs, no matter the number to be optional.
That said I know I could always just reflavour those classes to be more European and likely that is the way I would go.
When you look at fantasy interpretations of the Samurai, you are often met with mystical abilities. Oneness with one's weapon, the iaijutsu strike, the whole zatoichi (blind swordsman) schtick, and countless amounts of awesome/zaniness found in Anime and Manga.
So, if you want your Samurai to be martial, then your paladins should probably be martial too. If Ki is a power source, then the Samurai fits in it because of the fantastic interpretation of the archetype. In reality, Samurai are the Knights of Japan, so they fit into the same archetype as the Paladin; their mythos lacks the connections to an omnipresent good deity, so you don't get the divine connotations the Paladin brings.
Shugenja's, though, aren't any more Ki than Chinese farmers are Ki. Ki, or Chi or Qi, is the energy of all life, and everyone has it. It is part of a philosophy that permeates every aspect of existence, so of course mystics would believe in it. But the mythology of a Shugenja's power doesn't say the power comes from within, and the thematics of their power are clearly elemental.
As an aside, I really hope the the shugenja (and all the OA stuff) shows up in a campaign setting style book, personally I like my fantasy pseudoeuropean and don't much need ninjas, samurai and shugenjas running around. I think they are very fun to play, in the appropriate setting (big L5R fan) but I would rather that they remain seperate, or at least very optional. And I do not consider PHBs, no matter the number to be optional.
That said I know I could always just reflavour those classes to be more European and likely that is the way I would go.
Sohei are Paladins in terms of ability, Samurai are Fighters (they just don't use shields as much - they tend towards two handed and tempest, though all exist), Ninjas are rogues (sorry), so they could easily come up with some sort of psuedoeuropean name to have the flavor of the historical shugejna, without necessarily having to make it solely oriental in nature.
If they had to do a oriental "setting" I'd hope they'd do some sort of Romance of the Three Kingdoms-like setting, rather than another Japan analogue, or better yet a China at war with itself with outside agression from an Indian like enemy (possibly even monstrous in nature, but better yet with a mixed nation, and a horde of monstrous humanoids to the north or south waiting to fall on them should any fall too far in their power.
When you look at fantasy interpretations of the Samurai, you are often met with mystical abilities. Oneness with one's weapon, the iaijutsu strike, the whole zatoichi (blind swordsman) schtick, and countless amounts of awesome/zaniness found in Anime and Manga.
So, if you want your Samurai to be martial, then your paladins should probably be martial too. If Ki is a power source, then the Samurai fits in it because of the fantastic interpretation of the archetype. In reality, Samurai are the Knights of Japan, so they fit into the same archetype as the Paladin; their mythos lacks the connections to an omnipresent good deity, so you don't get the divine connotations the Paladin brings.
Agreed. Samurai should be ki defenders, but they need to be in the Rurouni Kenshin/Samurai Champloo/Usagi Yojimbo/Samurai Showdown school, not "fighter with a katana".
I would much rather see a Campaign guide that gives new feats and flavour to the existing classes to make them work in an Asian setting (or at least to know what to call them) and then add one (maybe two) new classes that don't fit well in a standard campaign.
2. If there were to be a Shugenja, it wouldn't fit well into the existing power structure, because the Shugenja's one attribute was that it worked off of an asian elemental system. And I'll bet anyone here an imaginary internet nickel that the elemental power source won't be working off of asian elements like wood and metal.
Especially since the wizard himself doesn't really have a focu on purely elemental damage since they also have access to plenty of other damage types.
Really I hope that the Elemental power source includes at each level a power for each of the elements, possibly more then one. That way if you want you can set yourself up as a pyromancer just through power selection. Either that or go with one element per role, which is something I have been working on with a friend of mine and it works really nicely.
2. If there were to be a Shugenja, it wouldn't fit well into the existing power structure, because the Shugenja's one attribute was that it worked off of an asian elemental system. And I'll bet anyone here an imaginary internet nickel that the elemental power source won't be working off of asian elements like wood and metal.
The Elemental power source could very well have Fire, Earth, Water, Wood and Metal, even if only used for the Shugenja. We don't have a definition of the power source so it could be anything from the "Classic five minus Aether" to Dao/Taoist Elements, to the Asian Five Elements system. It could even incorporate all eight of them (Which for the record are Earth, Fire, Metal, Wood, Wind, Water, Yin and Yang). We really don't know.
1. There probably won't be a Shugenja. This is one of the classes that didn't have enough "there" there to continue to exist. It was basically just a slightly different spell list, and thematically, its just "wizard, but asian."
2. If there were to be a Shugenja, it wouldn't fit well into the existing power structure, because the Shugenja's one attribute was that it worked off of an asian elemental system. And I'll bet anyone here an imaginary internet nickel that the elemental power source won't be working off of asian elements like wood and metal.
Just because the Wu Jen 'was' just a wizard with a slight spell list change, and the shugenja did operate off the Asian elemental system, does not mean that either of those will continue to be true. After all, the Paladin used to be able to Detect Evil and the Fighter used to suck, and Rangers used to cast spells ... the list goes on.
There's no reason they can't take the Wu Jen and Shugenja and change their setup to the Air-Earth-Fire-Water setup.
There's a kind of chicken-or-egg setup here. Do they look at it as:
1. "We need a shugenja, we'll make it an Elemental Leader"
or
2. "We need an Elemental Leader, we'll call it a Shugenja."
I'd like to see the Ninja beat up the Shadowdancer and take it's stuff, because Shadow fits the Ninja more than Ki does.
I completely agree.
Except Martial, Ki and (arguably) Psionic don't fit with the "power sources made everything" theme. They're all internal, rather than the others which are external. Otherwise it makes sense.
My thesis is that all the power sources are everywhere, and that from the power sources comes all the energies that created all the planes and everything in them. This isn't limited to "internal" or "external" concepts, because even that "internal" energy comes from the power sources.
As Xeviat-DM and MikelAmroni go on to suggest, one could explain Psionic, Martial, and Ki as "Mind, Body, and Soul", the essence of sentience. Since I equate certain things within every plane with each power source (rather than equating everything from a specific plane to a specific power source), one could simply say that these three power sources are simply the energies which power all sentience in the multiverse.
One could get more detailed and imaginative (saying, for example, that the Martial power source is the energy behind all corporeal being, and that Psionic is the energy which powers all thought), but I'd going to avoid doing so to preserve the intention of this explanation of the D&D cosmos: It's supposed to leave vague the specific connections and interactions between the fundamental forces of existence and existence itself, so as not to inflict any unintended cause-and-effect relationships upon the game rules. To put that another way, it's supposed to be a meaningful explanation for people who need a meaningful explanation, but one that won't ever have any effect upon how you decide to play your game.
Just because the Wu Jen 'was' just a wizard with a slight spell list change, and the shugenja did operate off the Asian elemental system, does not mean that either of those will continue to be true. After all, the Paladin used to be able to Detect Evil and the Fighter used to suck, and Rangers used to cast spells ... the list goes on.
There's no reason they can't take the Wu Jen and Shugenja and change their setup to the Air-Earth-Fire-Water setup.
There's a kind of chicken-or-egg setup here. Do they look at it as:
1. "We need a shugenja, we'll make it an Elemental Leader"
or
2. "We need an Elemental Leader, we'll call it a Shugenja."
The way Wu Jen is written, I'd call it primal. They're very much in connection with the natural world and the spirits that live there. I do believe the primal power source has something about ancestor worship in it, which is another thing that Wu Jen make use of (the "X Spirit" class feature and feats).
Shugenja have a more direct connection to the elements themelves. I'd call them either Divine or Elemental, depending on which aspect of them you look to.
The Elemental power source could very well have Fire, Earth, Water, Wood and Metal, even if only used for the Shugenja. We don't have a definition of the power source so it could be anything from the "Classic five minus Aether" to Dao/Taoist Elements, to the Asian Five Elements system. It could even incorporate all eight of them (Which for the record are Earth, Fire, Metal, Wood, Wind, Water, Yin and Yang). We really don't know.
You forgot lightning which will most likely make it into the elemental power source(look at genasi as a likely sneak peek of the elemental power source).....although I forgot what culture includes lightning as an element. Is it Japan?
As Xeviat-DM and MikelAmroni go on to suggest, one could explain Psionic, Martial, and Ki as "Mind, Body, and Soul", the essence of sentience. Since I equate certain things within every plane with each power source (rather than equating everything from a specific plane to a specific power source), one could simply say that these three power sources are simply the energies which power all sentience in the multiverse.
Bah the mind is a byproduct of the interaction between the animus and the soul. It isn't even one of the three components used to create a sentient creature. The power for psionics should come from the animus!:D
You forgot lightning which will most likely make it into the elemental power source(look at genasi as a likely sneak peek of the elemental power source).....although I forgot what culture includes lightning as an element. Is it Japan?
I'm not sure, but Japan is likely, and I think Korea as well (I don't know why I think that though). So that could make nine possible elements for the Elemental power source. Ten if you count Ice as well. Also can you link the Peek at the Elemental Power Source?
Bah the mind is a byproduct of the interaction between the animus and the soul. It isn't even one of the three components used to create a sentient creature. The power for psionics should come from the animus!:D
Psionics are Primal now?
I'm not sure, but Japan is likely, and I think Korea as well (I don't know why I think that though). So that could make nine possible elements for the Elemental power source. Ten if you count Ice as well. Also can you link the Peek at the Elemental Power Source?
Psionics are Primal now?
Genasi are a race printed in the FRPG which are basically humanoid elementals that are native to the (material) world. They come in five flavors; earth, fire, water, air, and lightning. I have a strong feeling that they are some what of a prototype elemental race and that we can get somewhat of an dea of what the designers see the elements as by looking at them. If you don't have the FRPG you can take a look at them here.
Also animus has nothing to do with primal. Primal draws its power from nature spirits that were born from the world. An animus is one of the three components of normal mortal sentient beings from the world. The three components are the body, the soul and the animus. The body is the physical presence in the world and is what allows a person to interact with it. The spirit is what grants a person self awareness. The animus is what enables the body to move.
Based on the current energy-type bonus damage feats, I think the elements will be distinguished thusly:
Fire: Fire and Radiant
Water: Cold and Acid
Air: Thunder and Lightning
Earth: Physical
Also, the Shugenja is separated by the Japanese Elements, which are also the Greek elements: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Void (Aether in Greek, Ashoka in others IIRC). Chinese is Earth, Fire, Metal, Water, Wood, and that's what the Wu Jen used. I think people are mixing the Wu Jen and Shugenja up; they're different things in 3E OA.
Also, the Shugenja is separated by the Japanese Elements, which are also the Greek elements: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Void (Aether in Greek, Ashoka in others IIRC). Chinese is Earth, Fire, Metal, Water, Wood, and that's what the Wu Jen used. I think people are mixing the Wu Jen and Shugenja up; they're different things in 3E OA.
See my suggestions for how they differ and why.
See my suggestions for how they differ and why.
I still say in an Eastern mindset there is less distinction between Primal and Divine.
Just because the Wu Jen 'was' just a wizard with a slight spell list change, and the shugenja did operate off the Asian elemental system, does not mean that either of those will continue to be true. After all, the Paladin used to be able to Detect Evil and the Fighter used to suck, and Rangers used to cast spells ... the list goes on.
There's no reason they can't take the Wu Jen and Shugenja and change their setup to the Air-Earth-Fire-Water setup.
There's a kind of chicken-or-egg setup here. Do they look at it as:
1. "We need a shugenja, we'll make it an Elemental Leader"
or
2. "We need an Elemental Leader, we'll call it a Shugenja."
Right, right, I'm just saying two things.
1. The "elemental" power source will probably not be done on an "asian elements" theme. It will probably be done on a european elements theme.
2. The Shugenja doesn't have any defining characteristics except a not particularly unique spell list.
So I don't think the Shugenja is a good fit for the elemental power source. It might be possible for it to be there, but I really doubt it. And I don't think the Shugenja is even a good fit for a 4e class- it doesn't have any stuff to take from 3e and convert into 4e. Its basically an empty shell with some flavor and a spell list.
So if the Shugenja DOES show up in 4e, it will essentially be a new class written from the ground up with the name "Shugenja" but with no real continuity to the 3e Shugenja, and it probably won't be elemental.
With those difficulties, I can't say that I expect that updating the Shugenja is going to be a very high priority for WOTC.
I still say in an Eastern mindset there is less distinction between Primal and Divine.
The difference between the two, regardless of your mindset, is where the beings that grant the power come from. Divine beings(or at least their power) come from the Astral Sea and primal beings come from the world.
I still say in an Eastern mindset there is less distinction between Primal and Divine.
That's because their concept of gods tend to be very similar to their concept of spirits. Many of the things they call gods, we'd call monsters, fey or something else. Wu Jen are forest dudes who worship their ancestors and live among the spirits in the wild. Shugenja (at least from 3rd Edition and L5R) are priests.
I don't think air and lightning will get fully separated for the elemental power source itself. Air Archons, for example, have electrical attacks.
Based on the current energy-type bonus damage feats, I think the elements will be distinguished thusly:
Fire: Fire and Radiant
Water: Cold and Acid
Air: Thunder and Lightning
Earth: Physical
Also, the Shugenja is separated by the Japanese Elements, which are also the Greek elements: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Void (Aether in Greek, Ashoka in others IIRC). Chinese is Earth, Fire, Metal, Water, Wood, and that's what the Wu Jen used. I think people are mixing the Wu Jen and Shugenja up; they're different things in 3E OA.
I'm aware of that, myself ... I'm just utterly disregarding it. I see no reason not to go with water/earth/fire/air for the Elemental Source, whether they call its practitioners Wu Jen or Shugenja or not.
I also don't see splitting up elements into Roles working out.
Earth: Primary Defender, no Striker
Air: Primary Controller, no Defender
Fire: Primary Striker, no Leader
Water: Primary Leader, no Controller (this is the only one that doesn't work for me)
The Primary role would be the one the class gets the class ability for (earth has a mark, fire has a bonus damage, water has a heal, air gets nothing cause controllers don't have a class ability), and the secondary roles would be featured in some of the powers. Like how Barbarians are Strikers with sub Defender or Leader.
Also, the Shugenja is separated by the Japanese Elements, which are also the Greek elements: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Void (Aether in Greek, Ashoka in others IIRC). Chinese is Earth, Fire, Metal, Water, Wood, and that's what the Wu Jen used. I think people are mixing the Wu Jen and Shugenja up; they're different things in 3E OA.
Yes. Thank you for clarifying this on the thread.
I think the Elemental Power Source will have more to do with the Primordials than with just Using the Four Elements. So, for example, you'll have Elementalists channeling the power of the First Fire or the Oldest Rock or the Great Wave, and not just calling any old fire, etc. I also don't see splitting up elements into Roles working out. [emphasis mine]
I agree that these two things would be overly constraining and are unlikely to be the primary basis for the Elemental power source. It will probably have a broad theme similar to "transformation" for the Primal power source. I'd guess it would involve chaos (
), creation/destruction, change or impermanence, and extreme opposites...sorta like how Genasi must balance fierce aspects of their inner natures.Powers will likely manipulate a mixed assortment of fundamental elements and energies such as earth, fire, air, water, thunder, lightning, light, and possibly more. Focus and flavor will be created most simply through power choice, i.e., a "pyromancer" picks the fire powers or a "blaster" picks attack AoE powers. Special expansion options that represent certain traditions (e.g., focus on Classical four elements, Chinese five elements, etc.) or more effects for a particular element (e.g., airbender, etc.) could be added through PP powers, multiclass-only classes, or simply more regular powers.
I expect general class names like Binder, Channeler, or Bender for the bass classes UNLESS Shugenja, Wu-jen, or Sha-ir is a perfect fit, in which case it should get all the credit and love. Otherwise, the latter names would probably end up as PPs. I could see Shugenja represented well in this manner, and the impermanence shtick of the Primordials could possibly add a dash of historical accuracy. (By dash I mean small, tiny inkling of one tiny aspect of the real history.) Just thoughts from my half-asleep mind.
Couldn't they have been absorbed by the the 4E Shaman?
You know...sort of like "Ranger kills the Scout and takes their stuff"
How do we know for sure the Shugenja will even be present in 4th Edition?
Couldn't they have been absorbed by the the 4E Shaman?
You know...sort of like "Ranger kills the Scout and takes their stuff"
We don't. This is all largely idle speculation.
But we *do* know there will be an Elemental power source, and if WotC does their standard 'nod to the past, but reworked for the present' modus operandi, the Shugenja (and Wu Jen) are the only two classes i can think of that would fit under that banner.
We don't. This is all largely idle speculation.
But we *do* know there will be an Elemental power source, and if WotC does their standard 'nod to the past, but reworked for the present' modus operandi, the Shugenja (and Wu Jen) are the only two classes i can think of that would fit under that banner.
Basically yes, plus a handful of elemental-themed prestige classes. There was a melee-based "elemental warrior"-type PrC in 3.5E's Planar Handbook, wasn't there? I imagine something similar for 4E's Elemental Defender role. (Although I'm honestly starting to get a little bit bored with every Defender being a sword-'n'-board warrior-type class; I realize that it fits well, but I think there's a limited number of unique ways to do it, which will soon be exhausted. It's hard for me to imagine an "Elemental Warrior" Defender class that doesn't look a heck of a lot like the Swordmage already does.)
Basically yes, plus a handful of elemental-themed prestige classes. There was a melee-based "elemental warrior"-type PrC in 3.5E's Planar Handbook, wasn't there?
Couldn't tell you, never bought it.
I imagine something similar for 4E's Elemental Defender role. (Although I'm honestly starting to get a little bit bored with every Defender being a sword-'n'-board warrior-type class; I realize that it fits well, but I think there's a limited number of unique ways to do it, which will soon be exhausted. It's hard for me to imagine an "Elemental Warrior" Defender class that doesn't look a heck of a lot like the Swordmage already does.)
This is true ... that may actually mean that there won't be an Elemental Defender, if they can't come up with a way to differentiate it from the Swordmage.
Basically yes, plus a handful of elemental-themed prestige classes. There was a melee-based "elemental warrior"-type PrC in 3.5E's Planar Handbook, wasn't there?
You mean the Elemental Warrior?:P
Yeah it existed. It was part of my plans to make a geshalt character with every form of movement(except climb) in 3.X. Honestly though that prestige class is very flavor neutral. It has four paths, where you develop some abilities related to the element you chose. I don't think it would be a good base for an entire class, heck the thing was only a five level prestige class to begin with.
This is true ... that may actually mean that there won't be an Elemental Defender, if they can't come up with a way to differentiate it from the Swordmage.
I think that as long as they avoid giving it any teleportation powers and had it internally channel the elements in some way, there would be enough of a difference.
Since we are on the subject of the elemental power source, I want to throw out an idea that I had yesterday for an elemental controller(or maybe striker). The alchemist!(yes I know we already have alchemy) The idea would be that the alchemist would alter the matter around him by changing the balance of the elements. Breathing in air? Nope now it is poison gas. That mud stuck on your boot? Nope now it is magma.
Since we are on the subject of the elemental power source, I want to throw out an idea that I had yesterday for an elemental controller(or maybe striker). The alchemist!(yes I know we already have alchemy) The idea would be that the alchemist would alter the matter around him by changing the balance of the elements. Breathing in air? Nope now it is poison gas. That mud stuck on your boot? Nope now it is magma.
Something of a different definition of 'alchemy' than I'm accustomed to; I'd call it a Transmuter, if for no other reason as to not confuse it with alchemy as it presently exists.
Something of a different definition of 'alchemy' than I'm accustomed to; I'd call it a Transmuter, if for no other reason as to not confuse it with alchemy as it presently exists.
Blame the difference in definition to my exposure to Full Metal Alchemist(and multiple video games).:P
Blame the difference in definition to my exposure to Full Metal Alchemist(and multiple video games).:P
That would do it. I've never heard of it.
Earth: Primary Defender, no Striker
Air: Primary Controller, no Defender
Fire: Primary Striker, no Leader
Water: Primary Leader, no Controller (this is the only one that doesn't work for me)
Way too limiting really, and it doesn't take in to account the other "aspects" of the same element. Sand behaves more like Water, than stone, is still clearly Earth. Also one could make the argument of Wind being striker while fire is controller. Compare the wildfire to the tornado. One burns hundreds of square miles, while the other concentrates it dustructive force to tens of square miles.
Most elements would favor a role, but wouldn't exlude one.
Most elements would favor a role, but wouldn't exlude one.
That would make it a little iffy on balance, though; we'd be back to classes that could do just about anything. The concept of a major and two minors is pretty prevalent as-is, even if it's not necessariliy codified.
Fighters are mostly defenders; however, if they do a lot of marking and pushing, they minor in controller. If they do a lot of big damage, they minor in Striker, for example.
I find the list quoted in your post to be pretty good. Typically, fire is considered the most destructive element. Yeah, there's still floods and tornadoes and earthquakes ... but you tend to THINK of fire as being the most destructive.
As a side note, if this were the way it was going to work, I'd prefer:
Earth as the Controller; walls of stone, sandstorms, sinkholes, fissures, and area damage via hails of stone and earthquakes.
Fire as the Striker; you kill it with fire, and if that doesn't work, KILL IT WITH MOAR FIRE.
Water as the Leader. Healing and all that.
That makes Air the Defender, which I admit, is a little flaky ... but you'd have all kinds of pushing and restraining powers based on gusts and whirlwinds.
That would make it a little iffy on balance, though; we'd be back to classes that could do just about anything. The concept of a major and two minors is pretty prevalent as-is, even if it's not necessariliy codified.
Well the easy solution is to just not make the classes that use the elemental power source limited to a single element for each class. As I've said before, all four of the primary elements are neccesary for life and all four of them can destroy life as well. In truth you could probably make any of the elements into any of the roles. Some of them might be tougher, or slightly more abstract, but they could all be done. The elemental power source should be about the power brought about from the balance of the elements and the natural cycle of the elemental chaos. It should not be about splitting them up and limiting the natural uses of the elements.
That would make it a little iffy on balance, though; we'd be back to classes that could do just about anything. The concept of a major and two minors is pretty prevalent as-is, even if it's not necessariliy codified.
That's not what I ment. I ment that all roles could have powers from all 4 elements but would have powers reflecting thier role. Strikers, for example could make heavy use of Wind and Fire, but would have strikery Earth and Water Powers, just less of them.
Since the shugenja's powers have typically been split into air, earth, water, and fire, my money's on elemental. All the primal stuff seems more animal-like.
Wait, do not forget about the spiritual aspect as well.
Why not? That's a fluff issue.
Why not? That's a fluff issue.
What is a power source, if not fluff?
What is a power source, if not fluff?
You're quite right, it is fluff. So is whether the powers are 'spiritual' or ... whatever the opposite of spiritual is. That mean it's not something WotC needs to include in the description of the class. If the player wants to add a spiritual aspect (whatever that means) to his character and his powers, he can. If not, he don't.
As I (think I) stated previously, I'm still not real sold on the whole power source thing. I can see why, but I don't see it as all that critical to the system. Frag, if I ever play a druid, I'm gonna ignore wild shape, make him arcane, and just be a weather-caster-blaster.
You're quite right, it is fluff. So is whether the powers are 'spiritual' or ... whatever the opposite of spiritual is. That mean it's not something WotC needs to include in the description of the class. If the player wants to add a spiritual aspect (whatever that means) to his character and his powers, he can. If not, he don't.
As I (think I) stated previously, I'm still not real sold on the whole power source thing. I can see why, but I don't see it as all that critical to the system. Frag, if I ever play a druid, I'm gonna ignore wild shape, make him arcane, and just be a weather-caster-blaster.
Well, to restate, the only reason not to do that is fluff. (EDIT: Don't forget to replace that wild shape ability, so you don't get hooped.) Otherwise, I'm sure it'll work dandy-fine.
As for "spiritual", I think what that poster was implying is that there's an implicity "spiritual"/"pseudo-religious" theme to the flavour of some of the power sources, based on our understanding of the fluff for them. Divine, Primal, and Ki all seem to reflect more "spiritual" elements of existence, while Martial, Arcane, Psionic, Shadow, and Elemental seem to represent the "mundane" (if sometimes "magical") elements. Obviously, this is a very fuzzy concept without any solid basis in the rules, but it is useful for differentiating fluff.
You're quite right, it is fluff. So is whether the powers are 'spiritual' or ... whatever the opposite of spiritual is. That mean it's not something WotC needs to include in the description of the class. If the player wants to add a spiritual aspect (whatever that means) to his character and his powers, he can. If not, he don't.
It sounds like you are thinking there will be an Elemental class that will be usable as a shugenja, but the spiritual fluff (which, btw, is critical to shugenja b/c they are meant to be priests) would be added on top if & when said class is used as a shugenja. Is that correct?
At what point does this cease being practical and begin shortchanging a class concept? Wouldn't "wizard" characters seem shortchanged if we had to use the warlock class and rely on fluff ("S/he studies books, I promise!") to represent the "wizard" character concept mechanically in-game? Is "shugenja" not as broadly archetypal enough as "wizard" or (among elemental classes) the more general "bender," etc.?
Perhaps the future elemental class description will be broad enough to encompass several methods for manipulating the elements. For example, it might say something like "characters of this class access the elements through varied methods such as tapping into natural nodes, drawing on ancestral bloodlines, or even propitiating nature & elemental spirits." Would that work?
Edit: Hmmm...I've asked before....Could a single class encompass both shugenja and Dark Sun elemental priests?
It sounds like you are thinking there will be an Elemental class that will be usable as a shugenja, but the spiritual fluff (which, btw, is critical to shugenja b/c they are meant to be priests) would be added on top if & when said class is used as a shugenja. Is that correct?
Something like that. I expect they will lay on the fluff rather thickly and we'll wind up with something akin to the line of thought that warlocks can't be good.
At what point does this cease being practical and begin shortchanging a class concept? Wouldn't "wizard" characters seem shortchanged if we had to use the warlock class and rely on fluff ("S/he studies books, I promise!") to represent the "wizard" character concept mechanically in-game? Is "shugenja" not as broadly archetypal enough as "wizard" or (among elemental classes) the more general "bender," etc.?
Not really. The one warlock I've played, I pretty much said 'he's a wizard' and played him appropriately, with a fondness for fire spells (infernal 'pact'). I don't think 'wizard' and 'studious bookworm' are synonymous, either; I've never played a robe-wearing pointy-hatted 'nerd-wizard' (for lack of a better term). By the same token, a cleric/paladin doesn't have to be an excessively preachy evangelist, a monk doesn't have to be a zen-spouting navel-contemplator, and a shugenja doesn't have to be spiritual. If the character decides to get drunk and go on a bender, that's his business, though I don't see the relevance to the conversation at hand.
Perhaps the future elemental class description will be broad enough to encompass several methods for manipulating the elements. For example, it might say something like "characters of this class access the elements through varied methods such as tapping into natural nodes, drawing on ancestral bloodlines, or even propitiating nature & elemental spirits." Would that work?
Even if WotC does lay out a lot of fluff, it already works like that. You can write 'Shugenja' on your character sheet; the character, himself, does not know it's there. Your powers work how you want them to work ... you can tap into the natural world, the elemental planes, whatever you want. Fluff is mutable.
Edit: Hmmm...I've asked before....Could a single class encompass both shugenja and Dark Sun elemental priests?
Can't see why not.
Earth: Primary Defender, no Striker
Air: Primary Controller, no Defender
Fire: Primary Striker, no Leader
Water: Primary Leader, no Controller (this is the only one that doesn't work for me)
Way too Captain Planet. Elemental classes should emphasize the chaotic nature of the Elemental Chaos as well. Their attacks should manifest as raging storms of mixed energy. They are basically the insane (not necessarily evil) twin of divine magic.
Way too Captain Planet. Elemental classes should emphasize the chaotic nature of the Elemental Chaos as well. Their attacks should manifest as raging storms of mixed energy. They are basically the insane (not necessarily evil) twin of divine magic.
We'll see which way they do it. I liked Captain Planet by the way (and "Fifth Element" too). My own setting's fluff has magic as elementalism, and I've been working on my own elemental classes in the vein of what I suggested, so that's why I mentioned it. There are many ways they could do it, but I do think making a class for each element is one of the better ways to do it.
I do believe, though, that the Shugenja isn't going to fit into traditional D&D. It's very setting specific, specifically the L5R setting. It's divine connotations wouldn't port over in a traditional setting unless they were the "priests of the primordials", which as I discussed would probably be a bad idea since the primordials are the big baddies.
Also, between the priestly aspects of various Divine and Primal classes, I don't think the game needs more priests.
I will agree, though, that fluff wise the Shugenja should be a Primal class, as they deal with the worldly spirits.
Earth: Primary Defender, no Striker
Air: Primary Controller, no Defender
Fire: Primary Striker, no Leader
Water: Primary Leader, no Controller (this is the only one that doesn't work for me)
I must have been unclear. I can understand the possible ways you could pair Elements and Roles; however, I think it's a bad idea because it unnecessarily constrains character options. "If you want to be a Defender, you're required to use Earth powers or Striker-->Fire Only" doesn't sit right with me. What if I want a Fire themed Defender?
I must have been unclear. I can understand the possible ways you could pair Elements and Roles; however, I think it's a bad idea because it unnecessarily constrains character options. "If you want to be a Defender, you're required to use Earth powers or Striker-->Fire Only" doesn't sit right with me. What if I want a Fire themed Defender?
It's quite possible that elemental as a power source could have themed abilities and non-themed abilities. There could be
-a class that serves the primordials.
-a class that harness demonic power
-a class that uses transmutation and creation effects, drawing on the raw power of the elemental chaos to build and destroy
-a class that can make "pacts" or at least has affinity with one of the four classic elements, like warlock pacts. Call it the "bender" class.
What about a defender who doesn't specialize? I hate that whole notion of "You specialize in one element and can do stuff that is typically associated with that element."
I quite like this aspect of the Genasi race; you get the impression that the element each Genasi manifests is simply the one they were most exposed to, but not some permanent trait. For example, rather than a Firesoul Genasi being a creature of elemental fire, zie is a being of elemental energy, which the Genasi manifests as fire.
Ha....Flavor text outside of the class descriptions (novels, cosmology, L5R splat books, etc.) abounds with discussion of the shugenja and their relationship to the kami. (There are even corrupted kami in the Shadowlands!) It’s like shugenja have two identities almost.Maybe I’m unnecessarily trying to parallel Rokugan flavor with 4e core flavor. In hypothetical 4e Rokugan, maybe the Primordials are replaced by the mikokami and there was never the big Dawn War. All fluff, all fluff, all fluff I guess. Still would like to see the Shaman, though.
*(Anyone know what the changes were (if any) with the CD shugenja?)